[00:00:14] Kev: Hello and welcome back to the final series on your beautiful book. So far you've taken us through a big journey, uh, taking us through your personal. Experiences and what it meant to you. And we've looked at, uh, ready and steady so far, and now we finally get to it. We get to flow
[00:00:39] Cameron: The juicy bit.
[00:00:42] Kev: the, the big word, the beautiful bit, what it's all about. Yep.
[00:00:48] Kev: Hmm. Okay. Let's kick it off with something you wrote in your book. And here you write that to become [00:01:00] absorbed and be effortless, you need to intentionally allow yourself to become absorbed and be effortless. That word allow, it's, it's very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about why you chose Allow?
[00:01:22] Cameron: Good pickup.
[00:01:26] Cameron: So often I hear we want to achieve flow. We want to find flow. We want to seek flow, we want to quest flow, we want to, we want flow 'cause it's a great state and it feels fantastic. But with that I guess quest there, there's an assumption or a presumption that it is ahead of us, outside of us.
[00:01:54] Cameron: Something where we need to get to. And I, one of the primary [00:02:00] messages I, I wanted to put forth in the book is rather it, it's within us and instead of finding it and becoming supersonic, so to speak, actually what we need to do is unpack and get rid of the shackles that typically. Restrict us. You know, the reason why we don't get into flow more frequently is, is ourselves, right?
[00:02:30] Cameron: When, we look at our physiology, we could suggest that it is almost always in flow. If we get a cut on our arm, for example, the blood in our body is working in perfect harmony with the cells in order to replenish and restore and it's working with veins and cell membranes and all of that's happening in a kind of synchronization, in a optimization [00:03:00] to the best it can possibly be.
[00:03:03] Cameron: And there's so much of that. Beautiful synchronicity already occurring inside of us all the time, every second. A nice way to look at flow is all we've got to do is transfer that to our psychology and allow that cortico muscular coherence and allow that synchronicity between mind and body And, and so I like to.
[00:03:31] Cameron: Re try to help people and remind us all that what our body is capable of is just incredible. I mean, to switch on a light switch, the simple process of moving our body, moving our hand, moving our arm towards the wall, flicking on the switch. We don't think twice about it, but for that to occur, there is billions of messages racing around our body [00:04:00] in order to have that effortless action and that there's so much complexity that's already happening inside us, to try and consciously control that or write that down, we would fill a whole library full of books. And then some just to try and quantify what's going on there. So if we can start to marvel at our own ingenuity, and not from a, an arrogance point of view, but just from how incredible the human being is, then we can start to see that, okay, perhaps really we just need to allow flight to occur, rather than.
[00:04:42] Cameron: Try and add something extra to what we've already got. So I think that's one part of it. And then the second part, which I touched on a little bit earlier, is that whenever we place it as something ahead of us, it becomes this outcome, something that we're not quite there yet. [00:05:00] And that creates a dynamic in which we need more control to find it.
[00:05:06] Cameron: Right. And then, which is likely to alert that thinking brain and take us further away from it.
[00:05:16] Kev: What's the fear or belief that's preventing people from allowing flow to occur and be absorbed and 'cause I feel there's a surrendering to it too. Hey.
[00:05:32] Cameron: Hmm. Yeah, chick sent me high in his earlier writings, talked a lot about, when we're in this high degree of control, there's a paradox to it, right? We let go, we surrender that control, and with that we actually feel a higher degree of control. But in his words, unpacking that further.
[00:05:58] Cameron: It's more [00:06:00] accurate to say that we lose the concern or worry about needing to be in control in the first place and in its instead, there is trust and we allow things to flow as the moment unfolds.
[00:06:19] Cameron: So by default, if we're not being like that. We're typically trying to control or engineer or manipulate or force things towards our inner agenda that we're trying to achieve. And whilst some of that happens very naturally in a subconscious anyway, when that becomes , a more thinking orientated experience.
[00:06:46] Cameron: Then that puts us in our thinking brain, and that cognition doesn't allow us to perform with the speed and the accuracy and the synchronicity that is required for flow. [00:07:00] So, if we had to pin back one fear or one belief, you know, it would be that I'll lose control if I, if I surrender.
[00:07:11] Kev: There's something about that word, Hey, control. What? What does it mean to you?
[00:07:34] Cameron: I was just going through the different layers of thoughts that were coming up, and I think at the root of all of that was really this idea of feeling more secure.
[00:07:48] Cameron: I, I think in one of the early episodes I talked about this idea of if we woke up in a pitch black room and there was nothing but darkness around us, you know, we [00:08:00] opened our eyes and it was still dark. And we moved around, moved our limbs and there was nothing but space. Suddenly this fear of where am I?
[00:08:12] Cameron: What's happening? There's this need to be in control to feel secure and, for some people, maybe all people, I dunno, but that's at the, at the heart of it, if we're in control, we're more secure of all sorts of things. But the, the paradox is, is that
[00:08:38] Cameron: real security comes from not needing to control in the first place. The more secure we are, the less we need to control. If we look at just day-to-day examples, the more I sec, the more secure I feel about myself. The less I need to control my behaviors or what I look like or think about [00:09:00] what other people are thinking of me, or the more secure I am when I walk on the dance floor.
[00:09:09] Cameron: And the more I can just let go and dance, the less I need to dance in a controlled manner. You know, I see with kids all the time, the more secure they are. The less anxious they are, the less they need to control and manipulate things to their advantage.
[00:09:29] Cameron: And the more secure we are, the more we can trust in relationships, the more intimacy we can have and in a performance sense. The more secure we are, the more we can trust our own ability, the more we can trust our own actions.
[00:09:47] Kev: Where does that come from?
[00:09:53] Cameron: Good question. Many, many places,
[00:09:57] Cameron: experience [00:10:00] mastery, having that embodied wisdom. And, and at some level there's a choice. You know, there's certain experiences where there's novelty or unknown ahead of us, and religions might call it faith psychologists might call it trust, but there's a choice to
[00:10:26] Cameron: feel that we have the capacity to deal with what's going to come up.
[00:10:37] Kev: In the book, you're saying effortless effortlessness requires intentional action. It seems paradoxical at first. How do you explain this to someone?
[00:10:57] Cameron: It is true that when we. [00:11:00] Try when we force things, when we put too much effort into something, it becomes effortful, I'm sure everyone can relate to that. Just take the act of trying to fall asleep. It becomes more difficult, more effortful and so forth,
[00:11:27] Cameron: and that controlled performance, that desire to form a particular outcome. That's often coming from that thinking brain, that monkey mind that needs to be in control and. When we're intentional about flow, what we're really doing is we're directing that thinking brain. To trust our being brain.
[00:11:55] Cameron: We're directing the part of ourselves that normally self [00:12:00] sabotages , slows us down, makes us more conscious, makes us more reflective, makes us overthink. We're directing that part of our brain to trust the other functions. The other capacities of our brain to do what they were designed and engineered to do in a far faster, far better way.
[00:12:21] Cameron: So when I talk about, being intentional with finding flow, it's not to attribute more effort and more friction to the task and make us more conscious and make it into an outcome in itself, but rather aligning the brains. And instead of having a battle of the brains or the battle of our internal cognition and our human operating systems, intentionally taking a moment to align them, build that cohesion, build that internal synchronicity, and then move into the act.
[00:12:58] Cameron: So it's very much a [00:13:00] calibration, intentional thought and action before acting not to have during the action.
[00:13:13] Kev: We've talked a lot about intuition and being, and the being brain and, developing and having trust for someone that's built their career on control and precision and perseverance. How do you help them make that shift to allow to trust, to move away from the rigidity?
[00:13:44] Cameron: You've touched on something that I feel that I probably have with every single client that I work with, or anyone who I've talked to at any depth about allowing more flow into our life and, it's the battle [00:14:00] for all of us. And we might be good at it in some places and terrible at it in other scenarios, you know, be that at work and relationships or, in different contexts.
[00:14:11] Cameron: I've found it really useful to, to
[00:14:18] Cameron: help people practice in a safe space. So, for example, when, I start working with an elite athlete. And we go over these principles and we go over their approach and we go over how they're going to tackle their next challenge. We go over that from a psychological perspective, but instead of straight away trying to apply that into the sport that they do, we then go and apply that into their cooking.
[00:14:54] Cameron: Into their, go shoot some basketballs, go play some dance. Go [00:15:00] find other challenges or other contexts that they can practice it in. And when they practice it in a safe space, they feel more trusting to try and experiment. You know, try a new way and. Their experiences ends up being better and so they start to trust the process more.
[00:15:23] Cameron: And then once there's some experiential wisdom, experiential gain from applying that flow mindset, then we can start to apply it to areas of what they do that are less pressured. So in a sporting sense, that might be in training. As opposed to competition in a working sense that might be in our day-to-day tasks as opposed to a big presentation or a big meeting, and then we can start to build efficacy, build trust, build faith, build that experiential [00:16:00] wisdom.
[00:16:01] Cameron: So that later when the pressure mounts, we can trust it more and more and more and more. So that, you know, that's the, the typical process that would happen occasionally, you know, you get people who just wanna apply it straight away because they're on board and they're, they're ready to let go and ready to surrender and, and fantastic.
[00:16:20] Cameron: But for a lot of people it is changing the opera the way we operate under pressure. You know, is a challenge. Changing the way we operate under complexity in a challenge is, can be super scary. Because we're talking about dealing with uncertainty, so it's quite important not to burn our bridges and try and shoot too high too soon and straight away apply it to that important meeting or that confronting conversation or that, that.
[00:16:54] Cameron: Important sporting match and then feel burnt and go, oh, well that didn't go [00:17:00] that well. And then feel even more despondent because we're running out of options. So, yeah, very, that's how I've have found
[00:17:14] Cameron: the most helpful way scaffolding. Glacial change in safe environments and then transfer that learning, transfer that trust in that approach across to their primary domain.
[00:17:34] Kev: Playing devil's advocate here. Control feels saved to most people. Why should someone give that up?
[00:17:47] Cameron: I, I laugh because most people, I guess, you know, that's what they want. Like when I show them the flow model and there's that experiential paradigm across the top that goes [00:18:00] from sort of bored, relaxed, composed, um, slash control and playful being in flow, and then anxious and stressed and strained and survival.
[00:18:12] Cameron: Most people aiming to be in that composed place. They're not aiming to be playful, they're not aiming to be in flow. And, and you know , that's their prerogative. And, and that's okay. And it kind of depends what we want. For me, being in flow is a, such a, a richer experience. There's so much.
[00:18:36] Cameron: The experience is so deeper, so much more meaningful. We can stretch our capacity, we can learn, we can grow, we can evolve as a human being. There's so much more depth and richness there that it seems like cutting life short just to stay in the composed and the safe and the controlled. And , often [00:19:00] when I see people living in those lives like I do with a lot of intelligent people.
[00:19:06] Cameron: Intelligence probably the wrong word. You know, cerebrally active people who are very, like to think through everything. You know, we, we end up creating safe boxes for ourselves to live in and wonder why life is a bit empty, why there's no spontaneity in our life, and where the richness has gone and why it all seems very predictable. So from a life satisfaction point of view, I would challenge individuals who want to stay in that composed safe space. I would challenge them and say, well, yeah, you can stay there and you'll probably get the same as what you've already got. And are you happy with that? Or do you want something deeper, something more meaningful?
[00:19:55] Cameron: And if their answer is to have something deeper and more meaningful, well then we can straight away [00:20:00] go to their own personal experiences of when, when they've been either in flow or in deep play, and they've come alive a bit more and life's felt more connected, more richer.
[00:20:14] Kev: What comes to mind for me is you mentioned about people being very cerebral, very mind active. It seems to me that we're increasingly moving that way as a society with technology moving up. It's almost as if we're operating up here rather than in the world. So I'm wondering what comes to mind for you when I draw that connection.
[00:20:56] Cameron: What comes to mind is the. [00:21:00] You know, the truth in that is in, as in I see that around me in the world and but also the juxtaposition of the craving for richer experiences. Nowadays with university learning happening in some countries predominantly or solely online, students are craving those classrooms.
[00:21:26] Cameron: Where we can get music at the end of our fingertips. And Spotify, we're craving that festival, that live experience, you know? And interestingly, whether it's an escape room or whether it's immersive experiences, they're becoming more and more popular on the high Street. And whilst things will become more automated, whilst things will become more.
[00:21:53] Cameron: Um, more efficient from a digital perspective and a logical perspective. [00:22:00] There's that more soulful connection where people want that connection, that richness, that novelty. And I, I think we're seeing it within younger generations where, um. Their tolerance for the work cycle that most of us adults have gotten ourself into, that they don't want it the way they want to have balance in their lives.
[00:22:29] Cameron: And so. It's gonna be one of the struggles we face as humanity, as a society. How can we balance the efficiency of, of all the AI and placate the need for this ever growing thirst for this, the thinking mind to be engaged and interested and stimulated whilst.
[00:22:56] Cameron: Having a more holistic experience and not purely [00:23:00] living through the lens of our thinking brain and having a more sensory, deeper multifaceted experience to our lives.
[00:23:14] Kev: Yeah, that rings true. Particularly the, move to counter move or the correction to having a more analog or offline experience is, is something that I'm seeing happening slowly and we surely take off once, um, people have had enough and want the balance to it because we're not gonna go away.
[00:23:37] Kev: We're not gonna go. And, and it's not used to technology, but we can counter correct Cam, you mentioned in the book the unnecessary effort that typically laces your experience. Can you give an example of what [00:24:00] unnecessary effort looks like just for the listener and the reader to maybe help identify with what, what it looks like in themselves?
[00:24:10] Cameron: Hmm. I just wanna give a bit of, a neuroscientific understanding that helps the subjective experience as well. When the part of our brain senses a conflict in a situation, the anterior cortex singular, we start to attribute attentional nodes IE effort to the experience. So if we perceive something to be of conflict, the brain.
[00:24:42] Cameron: To overcome this conflict, the brain produces more attentional nodes, more effort to our momentary experience to help deal with that. And in that loading of effort, things that are otherwise very simple, feel [00:25:00] more effortful. Right? And the classic one I'm always so aware, aware of is when I finally get into bed at the end of the day and I'm like, Ugh.
[00:25:09] Cameron: And then the bathroom light's on. And, and the amount of effort to get up and turn the bathroom light off. It's a very simple task. You know, it doesn't require a lot of effort, but it feels effortful. Right. You know, I see it from my kids. Oh, can you go take the trash out? Oh, I can't possibly do that. You know, there's, there's things.
[00:25:36] Cameron: It's subjectively more effortful. When we perceive more conflict,
[00:25:44] Kev: Mm.
[00:25:46] Cameron: and you know, another great example of this, you coming back to the precision and control conversation earlier. You know, if we imagine ourselves skiing down the mountain through trees or driving a car [00:26:00] fast, and we come up to a tight section, if we're needing that control
[00:26:08] Cameron: We end up, slowing down and we end up being a bit clunky and, and it feels very strained and very effortful to put the car through that tight gap or to, to ski through the trees. But paradoxically, when we allow us body to ski through those trees, or we just race, you know, instead of putting the brake on.
[00:26:33] Cameron: We put our foot on the accelerator and we don't have any other choice but to trust our system to get through that gap. It does so with incredible precision and using a greater capacity, of our human operating system and all those attentional nodes that were attributed to the task disappear.
[00:26:59] Cameron: [00:27:00] Because they, you know, in those situations, we're sort of forcing ourself into that situation. And it's very similar to the, as you know, as we fall asleep and we might be putting attentional loads in, I've got to sleep, I've gotta sleep, gotta go to bed, I've gotta go to sleep, gotta sleep. And then we finally let go and the conflict of needing to go to sleep disappears.
[00:27:19] Cameron: And, we get asleep. So.
[00:27:25] Cameron: Ordinarily, there's a lot of unnecessary effort that typically laces our daily experience, and certainly in performance situations. When, and again, when I say performance, I don't mean standing on a stage per se, but when we're delivering an act, when we're writing our emails, when we're having a conversation, when we're playing with the kids, whatever it is, there's ordinarily.
[00:27:50] Cameron: Unnecessary effort, and if we can
[00:27:56] Cameron: get on board with that, we can also get on board with [00:28:00] intentionally reducing that effort and leading us more and more into flow.
[00:28:09] Kev: Something that comes up for me when you say performing an act is any action. In that sense of performance.
[00:28:18] Cameron: I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever we do something, whenever the body is doing something, it's performing. From my interpretation or my language. Anyway,
[00:28:37] Kev: So how do we learn how to recognize unnecessary effort in ourselves?
[00:28:50] Cameron: one of the easiest ways is to listen to our physiology. When we're stressed, [00:29:00] when we're putting a lot of effort to something, there's normally this tension often around our forehead 'cause we're overthinking. For example, if you're listening to this, just try and read something in front of you or think about something and, and really try and read really effortful or think about something with a great amount of effort.
[00:29:24] Cameron: And you'll feel this sort of tension in, in your, in your head, normally around your forehead. And when we are being effortful, there's this. Instant reaction from our body and our physiology. And if we can become aware of that, then that helps loosen the psychology. And one, technique that I use a lot with people performing at the pointy ends of a, whether it's conducting a surgery or about to jump off a mountain, is.
[00:29:58] Cameron: Relaxing that [00:30:00] space in that forehead. Imagining we have a third eye in between our two eyes and creating a softness with our gaze. And instantly when we do that, we psychologically become more relaxed, more accepting, more calmer in the eye of the storm. And so there's, we can use our physiology to assist our psychology and.
[00:30:27] Cameron: And vice versa.
[00:30:31] Kev: Sounds like unnecessary effort is our default. Why is that?
[00:30:46] Cameron: I mean, I'm not the evolutionist, but I certainly see. An evolutionary pattern there in terms of the more the thinking brain is active, [00:31:00] the more effort we attribute to scenarios or subjective felt effort, I should say. And so I, in my book I talk about the evolutionary errors and the five big mistakes that humans have come to make.
[00:31:19] Cameron: By developing certain parts of our brain by developing certain parts of our human operating system for good reasons at the time, you know, a lot of our reactions and Neurop Psychophysiological responses, which were once very helpful in a modern world in the way that we live with cellophane wrapped meat and
[00:31:43] Cameron: really the only threat we have is to comfort and competence, not life threatening situations. Those biological functions and re and reactions are, still at large in our day to day, [00:32:00] and as a result, the environment we live in doesn't match that. And as a result, it becomes a conflict. It becomes a distraction.
[00:32:09] Cameron: And we add more effort to it. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's our default mode because I, maybe call me the optimist, but I like to see flow as that central way of operating that's just waiting for us if we're willing to peel back the layers. But typically with so much complexity in our upbringing.
[00:32:37] Cameron: The insecurities we carry around that psychological conditioning that we've adapted over the years to protect our wounded childs and, and so forth. There's a complexity there that triggers all those evolutionary errors causing more and more conflict that is otherwise unnecessary.[00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Kev: Hmm. With what you've said so far about the thinking brain, it seems to me that the role of it is to solve problems in some way. And when we talk about this. Effortful way of being that doesn't need to be there.
[00:33:25] Kev: Is it just looking for a problem that doesn't need to be there?
[00:33:33] Cameron: In many cases, a lot of the time, absolutely. In spending time with monks and people who've put a lot of attention into quietening their mind, it becomes quite obvious that it's almost impossible. You know that thinking brain is engineered to think it's what it's designed to do. If [00:34:00] it's active, it's going to be thinking.
[00:34:04] Cameron: So,
[00:34:08] Cameron: In those previous examples, it's, it's rather our attachment and our connection to those thoughts that determine, you know, whether we react and respond to them or not, but. The thinking brain. I like to think of it as a, as a really useful, incredible, one of our best skills or tools in our toolbox, but for most of us, it has become the tool that we take to do every job has become the lens in which we experience the world.
[00:34:47] Cameron: As opposed to being an asset, a tool of many that we bring out when we need it. And part of that is, is educational. A lot of the assessments and [00:35:00] exams, uh, thinking brain assessments. And culturally we tend to reward things.
[00:35:09] Cameron: And don't get me wrong, our thinking brain has enabled me, not all the time, but it's still happening, but enabled us for the most part to stop killing each other and allowed us to stop walking around and fur pelts and allowed us to build cities and, you know, do incredible things and very much part of the scientific framework.
[00:35:33] Cameron: However, it doesn't need to take over all our experience and because of its overreach, because of its need to incessantly think or have something to think about, and a primary narrative for that is there's a problem that needs a solution. What could the solution be? I'm threatened here. How can I feel more insecure?[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Cameron: I've got an agenda here. How can I navigate or manipulate my way to get that innate agenda met? It will continue to think and think, and think, and think, and think, and think, and think, and think and think, and it's why we can have a, choice in front of us and we can give 2, 3, 4, 5 very logical, agreeable.
[00:36:29] Cameron: Solutions to the exact same issue and not always know which one to go down and end up in this sort of analysis paralysis. 'cause all the things we're thinking are potentially good or right or possible. And so.
[00:36:51] Cameron: If we can spend a bit more time understanding what triggers our thinking brain, you know, is it because we're needing to achieve and is it [00:37:00] because we're wanting to fix? Is it because we've got these big. Agendas that we're constantly trying to meet, you know, well what is sort of sparing that on into, into hyperdrive.
[00:37:12] Cameron: If we can get to understand that a bit more, we can loosen the strings and allow a, a more multi-faceted experience.
[00:37:28] Kev: Maybe slightly off topic, but I just can't help myself thinking about it, is this. Overemphasis on thinking and the, the intellectual contents of our brains is that more dominant than the Western and Western cultures?
[00:37:51] Cameron: Traditionally, perhaps, you know, I think in some ways Eastern cultures now are even more brain dominant than than Western. [00:38:00] But like in that more traditional sense, you know, perhaps, and
[00:38:09] Cameron: We talked about AI earlier, certainly is. AI increases and does a lot of our thinking, brain activity for us in a far faster, more effective, more efficient manner. You could argue that there's never a time that's more important to foster and nurture the skills of, the rest of our brain, for example, I guess.
[00:38:38] Cameron: Helping people to distinguish between intuition and logic, helping people distinguish between wisdom and knowledge. Helping people to feel the difference of living through virtues as opposed to having logical values, being able to have [00:39:00] human connection and coach as opposed to direct to a plan. You know all, all that more at schools, can we have more experiential learning that creates embodied skills rather than rote learning, which is a question of memory.
[00:39:19] Cameron: And students often forget quickly after the exam anyway, you know, can we leave people with lasting human skills that is gonna allow us to adapt and meet the future world as opposed to. Take on a few linear skills that are very quickly gonna become redundant with ai.
[00:39:45] Cameron: So, it didn't answer your question directly there, but I think there is a cultural influence for sure, so I think, you know, there's a lot that can be learn moving forwards from, um, from bringing these cultures [00:40:00] together and not just adopting that. Massive. Um, quest we seem to be on to, supercharge the thinking brain and logically justify why we need to consume more and, and have more, more, more, more, more, more, more.
[00:40:27] Kev: It's almost as if you said the role of humans in the age of AI could be to develop the intuition to facilitate more flow and. Use that part of her brain to be more human.
[00:40:48] Cameron: Yeah, I mean, I dunno of where flow has been more required or more needed or the pathway to flow or the flow mindset has been more necessary in our [00:41:00] timeline. So there's, I mean, a, I don't wanna get too much into a conversation about AI 'cause I'm not, not the most literate person to speak about ai, but we, we've certainly got a huge opportunity, at least I think so as a human race to start developing new skills and.
[00:41:23] Cameron: Flow can be a real shining light in how we do that because there's a lot of information we already know and, and the actualization of flow is the actualized self that is using our holistic systems, not just our, our thinking brain. Explicit cogniti.
[00:41:51] Kev: I am wondering, we mentioned education and kids a little bit throughout the whole series i'm wondering if there's something to be said [00:42:00] about how we do education with children in terms of where they are in development with their brains. Should we move more towards experiential learning completely and develop some completely other stuff, and then move on to educating information technical later in life?
[00:42:22] Cameron: I think there's a solid argument for that. If we look at the. The biology of the brain. You know, we know this thinking brain that I'm talking about often associated with that medial lateral prefrontal cortex. Those more frontal, cortical executive functions. They develop very slowly coming into biological maturity when we're 28 and it, it's that.
[00:42:53] Cameron: Glacial biological growth is one of the reasons why as adults we get so annoyed with kids [00:43:00] because they don't have that logic, you know, they, we tell them we're late, and they go, yeah, okay. And then two seconds later, they're looking at the painting on the wall going, wow, that's a beautiful painting.
[00:43:11] Cameron: And you know, they, they, they don't have that logic, that biological functionality. To onboard what we've logically deemed as very, very important, and so trying to force feed logical content into their brain that biologically is not wanting to absorb that information. There are certainly periods in time where the brain wants to absorb that logic.
[00:43:49] Cameron: And that more conscious level thinking, there's certainly times where with huge, the appetite is large. So timing that can be hugely [00:44:00] important. And obviously with, I'm talking generalistic here, you know, there's individuals who always, um. Can, you know, there's, there's four year olds who can read the Lord of the Rings already, and there's, different capacities out there, but
[00:44:20] Cameron: there, I believe there's a reason why we have anxiety issues in five year olds in education. Why? 75% of students are beyond nervous about exams. They're stressed, depressed, burnt out with a whole range of mental illnesses, and
[00:44:54] Cameron: at a time when. We were looking to create humans to fit into [00:45:00] corporations, to do systematic jobs, to have a controlled society, that might have been a good idea to, to cohere the sheep, so to speak. But now when graduates are looking at 17 different jobs in a lifetime, when they're looking at the skills they need.
[00:45:24] Cameron: For leadership are coaching and creativity and meaning making. You know, those aren't often the skills that we're teaching at at certain schools. So in terms of when we look at the neuroscience of how people learn how they deal with emotion and how they access memory and how they perform.
[00:45:54] Cameron: Pretty much all those roads lead to experiential learning being [00:46:00] the most successful method. And I can speak for Australia because I've got a lot more day-to-day, knowledge about Australian. There's often a desire for it. You know, you see the teacher training lectures and there's a willingness and an appetite for it.
[00:46:24] Cameron: But the practical reality for most teachers is they just don't have the time to implement it or to implement It is such a systemic change from how they're normally teaching that it's practically impossible and most teachers are, are struggling just to deal with lesson plans. And behavior management of the students during the task.
[00:46:44] Cameron: So they're finding it so difficult just to get through the day and get through the week and get through the year with all the demands and red tape's on them. It's difficult to integrate a whole new program of experiential learning unless the system is set up for it, which [00:47:00] is where systems like Montessori will, excel.
[00:47:07] Kev: Kim, I think we have so many podcasts, so much information out there, and I'm guilty of this. I listen to a lot of podcasts, but don't really do anything with what I've heard or learned. If the listener, the readers, someone that is experiencing this conversation is going to take one action. That is based on this conversation we had today, what would you say would be, IM the most impactful for a broad spectrum of people.
[00:47:53] Cameron: Coming back to the conversation we had earlier around, what can we do? [00:48:00] To release our psyche from the need to be in control and whether that's, you know, maybe develop fulfilling our more basic needs, whether that's building security, whether that's learning to, to trust, whether that's putting up having more exposure in, in situations that otherwise trigger us, but at the root of being able to be more effortless.
[00:48:28] Cameron: We need to find ways to not worry about losing control in the first place.
[00:48:38] Cameron: And you know, we can start by dancing. You can, if you're driving, be careful. But otherwise, you know, when you're listening to this, you can, we can dance with in one way. And then if we have the intention to be a bit more effortless. Have more fluidity in our [00:49:00] movement then the dancing can feel more effortless.
[00:49:05] Cameron: And often that might come with not carrying what we look like, right? Or, loosening those straps that keep us locked into sort of feeling in control and having control. So find a way to. Let go of the need to control in the moment.
[00:00:39] Cameron: The juicy bit.
[00:00:42] Kev: the, the big word, the beautiful bit, what it's all about. Yep.
[00:00:48] Kev: Hmm. Okay. Let's kick it off with something you wrote in your book. And here you write that to become [00:01:00] absorbed and be effortless, you need to intentionally allow yourself to become absorbed and be effortless. That word allow, it's, it's very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about why you chose Allow?
[00:01:22] Cameron: Good pickup.
[00:01:26] Cameron: So often I hear we want to achieve flow. We want to find flow. We want to seek flow, we want to quest flow, we want to, we want flow 'cause it's a great state and it feels fantastic. But with that I guess quest there, there's an assumption or a presumption that it is ahead of us, outside of us.
[00:01:54] Cameron: Something where we need to get to. And I, one of the primary [00:02:00] messages I, I wanted to put forth in the book is rather it, it's within us and instead of finding it and becoming supersonic, so to speak, actually what we need to do is unpack and get rid of the shackles that typically. Restrict us. You know, the reason why we don't get into flow more frequently is, is ourselves, right?
[00:02:30] Cameron: When, we look at our physiology, we could suggest that it is almost always in flow. If we get a cut on our arm, for example, the blood in our body is working in perfect harmony with the cells in order to replenish and restore and it's working with veins and cell membranes and all of that's happening in a kind of synchronization, in a optimization [00:03:00] to the best it can possibly be.
[00:03:03] Cameron: And there's so much of that. Beautiful synchronicity already occurring inside of us all the time, every second. A nice way to look at flow is all we've got to do is transfer that to our psychology and allow that cortico muscular coherence and allow that synchronicity between mind and body And, and so I like to.
[00:03:31] Cameron: Re try to help people and remind us all that what our body is capable of is just incredible. I mean, to switch on a light switch, the simple process of moving our body, moving our hand, moving our arm towards the wall, flicking on the switch. We don't think twice about it, but for that to occur, there is billions of messages racing around our body [00:04:00] in order to have that effortless action and that there's so much complexity that's already happening inside us, to try and consciously control that or write that down, we would fill a whole library full of books. And then some just to try and quantify what's going on there. So if we can start to marvel at our own ingenuity, and not from a, an arrogance point of view, but just from how incredible the human being is, then we can start to see that, okay, perhaps really we just need to allow flight to occur, rather than.
[00:04:42] Cameron: Try and add something extra to what we've already got. So I think that's one part of it. And then the second part, which I touched on a little bit earlier, is that whenever we place it as something ahead of us, it becomes this outcome, something that we're not quite there yet. [00:05:00] And that creates a dynamic in which we need more control to find it.
[00:05:06] Cameron: Right. And then, which is likely to alert that thinking brain and take us further away from it.
[00:05:16] Kev: What's the fear or belief that's preventing people from allowing flow to occur and be absorbed and 'cause I feel there's a surrendering to it too. Hey.
[00:05:32] Cameron: Hmm. Yeah, chick sent me high in his earlier writings, talked a lot about, when we're in this high degree of control, there's a paradox to it, right? We let go, we surrender that control, and with that we actually feel a higher degree of control. But in his words, unpacking that further.
[00:05:58] Cameron: It's more [00:06:00] accurate to say that we lose the concern or worry about needing to be in control in the first place and in its instead, there is trust and we allow things to flow as the moment unfolds.
[00:06:19] Cameron: So by default, if we're not being like that. We're typically trying to control or engineer or manipulate or force things towards our inner agenda that we're trying to achieve. And whilst some of that happens very naturally in a subconscious anyway, when that becomes , a more thinking orientated experience.
[00:06:46] Cameron: Then that puts us in our thinking brain, and that cognition doesn't allow us to perform with the speed and the accuracy and the synchronicity that is required for flow. [00:07:00] So, if we had to pin back one fear or one belief, you know, it would be that I'll lose control if I, if I surrender.
[00:07:11] Kev: There's something about that word, Hey, control. What? What does it mean to you?
[00:07:34] Cameron: I was just going through the different layers of thoughts that were coming up, and I think at the root of all of that was really this idea of feeling more secure.
[00:07:48] Cameron: I, I think in one of the early episodes I talked about this idea of if we woke up in a pitch black room and there was nothing but darkness around us, you know, we [00:08:00] opened our eyes and it was still dark. And we moved around, moved our limbs and there was nothing but space. Suddenly this fear of where am I?
[00:08:12] Cameron: What's happening? There's this need to be in control to feel secure and, for some people, maybe all people, I dunno, but that's at the, at the heart of it, if we're in control, we're more secure of all sorts of things. But the, the paradox is, is that
[00:08:38] Cameron: real security comes from not needing to control in the first place. The more secure we are, the less we need to control. If we look at just day-to-day examples, the more I sec, the more secure I feel about myself. The less I need to control my behaviors or what I look like or think about [00:09:00] what other people are thinking of me, or the more secure I am when I walk on the dance floor.
[00:09:09] Cameron: And the more I can just let go and dance, the less I need to dance in a controlled manner. You know, I see with kids all the time, the more secure they are. The less anxious they are, the less they need to control and manipulate things to their advantage.
[00:09:29] Cameron: And the more secure we are, the more we can trust in relationships, the more intimacy we can have and in a performance sense. The more secure we are, the more we can trust our own ability, the more we can trust our own actions.
[00:09:47] Kev: Where does that come from?
[00:09:53] Cameron: Good question. Many, many places,
[00:09:57] Cameron: experience [00:10:00] mastery, having that embodied wisdom. And, and at some level there's a choice. You know, there's certain experiences where there's novelty or unknown ahead of us, and religions might call it faith psychologists might call it trust, but there's a choice to
[00:10:26] Cameron: feel that we have the capacity to deal with what's going to come up.
[00:10:37] Kev: In the book, you're saying effortless effortlessness requires intentional action. It seems paradoxical at first. How do you explain this to someone?
[00:10:57] Cameron: It is true that when we. [00:11:00] Try when we force things, when we put too much effort into something, it becomes effortful, I'm sure everyone can relate to that. Just take the act of trying to fall asleep. It becomes more difficult, more effortful and so forth,
[00:11:27] Cameron: and that controlled performance, that desire to form a particular outcome. That's often coming from that thinking brain, that monkey mind that needs to be in control and. When we're intentional about flow, what we're really doing is we're directing that thinking brain. To trust our being brain.
[00:11:55] Cameron: We're directing the part of ourselves that normally self [00:12:00] sabotages , slows us down, makes us more conscious, makes us more reflective, makes us overthink. We're directing that part of our brain to trust the other functions. The other capacities of our brain to do what they were designed and engineered to do in a far faster, far better way.
[00:12:21] Cameron: So when I talk about, being intentional with finding flow, it's not to attribute more effort and more friction to the task and make us more conscious and make it into an outcome in itself, but rather aligning the brains. And instead of having a battle of the brains or the battle of our internal cognition and our human operating systems, intentionally taking a moment to align them, build that cohesion, build that internal synchronicity, and then move into the act.
[00:12:58] Cameron: So it's very much a [00:13:00] calibration, intentional thought and action before acting not to have during the action.
[00:13:13] Kev: We've talked a lot about intuition and being, and the being brain and, developing and having trust for someone that's built their career on control and precision and perseverance. How do you help them make that shift to allow to trust, to move away from the rigidity?
[00:13:44] Cameron: You've touched on something that I feel that I probably have with every single client that I work with, or anyone who I've talked to at any depth about allowing more flow into our life and, it's the battle [00:14:00] for all of us. And we might be good at it in some places and terrible at it in other scenarios, you know, be that at work and relationships or, in different contexts.
[00:14:11] Cameron: I've found it really useful to, to
[00:14:18] Cameron: help people practice in a safe space. So, for example, when, I start working with an elite athlete. And we go over these principles and we go over their approach and we go over how they're going to tackle their next challenge. We go over that from a psychological perspective, but instead of straight away trying to apply that into the sport that they do, we then go and apply that into their cooking.
[00:14:54] Cameron: Into their, go shoot some basketballs, go play some dance. Go [00:15:00] find other challenges or other contexts that they can practice it in. And when they practice it in a safe space, they feel more trusting to try and experiment. You know, try a new way and. Their experiences ends up being better and so they start to trust the process more.
[00:15:23] Cameron: And then once there's some experiential wisdom, experiential gain from applying that flow mindset, then we can start to apply it to areas of what they do that are less pressured. So in a sporting sense, that might be in training. As opposed to competition in a working sense that might be in our day-to-day tasks as opposed to a big presentation or a big meeting, and then we can start to build efficacy, build trust, build faith, build that experiential [00:16:00] wisdom.
[00:16:01] Cameron: So that later when the pressure mounts, we can trust it more and more and more and more. So that, you know, that's the, the typical process that would happen occasionally, you know, you get people who just wanna apply it straight away because they're on board and they're, they're ready to let go and ready to surrender and, and fantastic.
[00:16:20] Cameron: But for a lot of people it is changing the opera the way we operate under pressure. You know, is a challenge. Changing the way we operate under complexity in a challenge is, can be super scary. Because we're talking about dealing with uncertainty, so it's quite important not to burn our bridges and try and shoot too high too soon and straight away apply it to that important meeting or that confronting conversation or that, that.
[00:16:54] Cameron: Important sporting match and then feel burnt and go, oh, well that didn't go [00:17:00] that well. And then feel even more despondent because we're running out of options. So, yeah, very, that's how I've have found
[00:17:14] Cameron: the most helpful way scaffolding. Glacial change in safe environments and then transfer that learning, transfer that trust in that approach across to their primary domain.
[00:17:34] Kev: Playing devil's advocate here. Control feels saved to most people. Why should someone give that up?
[00:17:47] Cameron: I, I laugh because most people, I guess, you know, that's what they want. Like when I show them the flow model and there's that experiential paradigm across the top that goes [00:18:00] from sort of bored, relaxed, composed, um, slash control and playful being in flow, and then anxious and stressed and strained and survival.
[00:18:12] Cameron: Most people aiming to be in that composed place. They're not aiming to be playful, they're not aiming to be in flow. And, and you know , that's their prerogative. And, and that's okay. And it kind of depends what we want. For me, being in flow is a, such a, a richer experience. There's so much.
[00:18:36] Cameron: The experience is so deeper, so much more meaningful. We can stretch our capacity, we can learn, we can grow, we can evolve as a human being. There's so much more depth and richness there that it seems like cutting life short just to stay in the composed and the safe and the controlled. And , often [00:19:00] when I see people living in those lives like I do with a lot of intelligent people.
[00:19:06] Cameron: Intelligence probably the wrong word. You know, cerebrally active people who are very, like to think through everything. You know, we, we end up creating safe boxes for ourselves to live in and wonder why life is a bit empty, why there's no spontaneity in our life, and where the richness has gone and why it all seems very predictable. So from a life satisfaction point of view, I would challenge individuals who want to stay in that composed safe space. I would challenge them and say, well, yeah, you can stay there and you'll probably get the same as what you've already got. And are you happy with that? Or do you want something deeper, something more meaningful?
[00:19:55] Cameron: And if their answer is to have something deeper and more meaningful, well then we can straight away [00:20:00] go to their own personal experiences of when, when they've been either in flow or in deep play, and they've come alive a bit more and life's felt more connected, more richer.
[00:20:14] Kev: What comes to mind for me is you mentioned about people being very cerebral, very mind active. It seems to me that we're increasingly moving that way as a society with technology moving up. It's almost as if we're operating up here rather than in the world. So I'm wondering what comes to mind for you when I draw that connection.
[00:20:56] Cameron: What comes to mind is the. [00:21:00] You know, the truth in that is in, as in I see that around me in the world and but also the juxtaposition of the craving for richer experiences. Nowadays with university learning happening in some countries predominantly or solely online, students are craving those classrooms.
[00:21:26] Cameron: Where we can get music at the end of our fingertips. And Spotify, we're craving that festival, that live experience, you know? And interestingly, whether it's an escape room or whether it's immersive experiences, they're becoming more and more popular on the high Street. And whilst things will become more automated, whilst things will become more.
[00:21:53] Cameron: Um, more efficient from a digital perspective and a logical perspective. [00:22:00] There's that more soulful connection where people want that connection, that richness, that novelty. And I, I think we're seeing it within younger generations where, um. Their tolerance for the work cycle that most of us adults have gotten ourself into, that they don't want it the way they want to have balance in their lives.
[00:22:29] Cameron: And so. It's gonna be one of the struggles we face as humanity, as a society. How can we balance the efficiency of, of all the AI and placate the need for this ever growing thirst for this, the thinking mind to be engaged and interested and stimulated whilst.
[00:22:56] Cameron: Having a more holistic experience and not purely [00:23:00] living through the lens of our thinking brain and having a more sensory, deeper multifaceted experience to our lives.
[00:23:14] Kev: Yeah, that rings true. Particularly the, move to counter move or the correction to having a more analog or offline experience is, is something that I'm seeing happening slowly and we surely take off once, um, people have had enough and want the balance to it because we're not gonna go away.
[00:23:37] Kev: We're not gonna go. And, and it's not used to technology, but we can counter correct Cam, you mentioned in the book the unnecessary effort that typically laces your experience. Can you give an example of what [00:24:00] unnecessary effort looks like just for the listener and the reader to maybe help identify with what, what it looks like in themselves?
[00:24:10] Cameron: Hmm. I just wanna give a bit of, a neuroscientific understanding that helps the subjective experience as well. When the part of our brain senses a conflict in a situation, the anterior cortex singular, we start to attribute attentional nodes IE effort to the experience. So if we perceive something to be of conflict, the brain.
[00:24:42] Cameron: To overcome this conflict, the brain produces more attentional nodes, more effort to our momentary experience to help deal with that. And in that loading of effort, things that are otherwise very simple, feel [00:25:00] more effortful. Right? And the classic one I'm always so aware, aware of is when I finally get into bed at the end of the day and I'm like, Ugh.
[00:25:09] Cameron: And then the bathroom light's on. And, and the amount of effort to get up and turn the bathroom light off. It's a very simple task. You know, it doesn't require a lot of effort, but it feels effortful. Right. You know, I see it from my kids. Oh, can you go take the trash out? Oh, I can't possibly do that. You know, there's, there's things.
[00:25:36] Cameron: It's subjectively more effortful. When we perceive more conflict,
[00:25:44] Kev: Mm.
[00:25:46] Cameron: and you know, another great example of this, you coming back to the precision and control conversation earlier. You know, if we imagine ourselves skiing down the mountain through trees or driving a car [00:26:00] fast, and we come up to a tight section, if we're needing that control
[00:26:08] Cameron: We end up, slowing down and we end up being a bit clunky and, and it feels very strained and very effortful to put the car through that tight gap or to, to ski through the trees. But paradoxically, when we allow us body to ski through those trees, or we just race, you know, instead of putting the brake on.
[00:26:33] Cameron: We put our foot on the accelerator and we don't have any other choice but to trust our system to get through that gap. It does so with incredible precision and using a greater capacity, of our human operating system and all those attentional nodes that were attributed to the task disappear.
[00:26:59] Cameron: [00:27:00] Because they, you know, in those situations, we're sort of forcing ourself into that situation. And it's very similar to the, as you know, as we fall asleep and we might be putting attentional loads in, I've got to sleep, I've gotta sleep, gotta go to bed, I've gotta go to sleep, gotta sleep. And then we finally let go and the conflict of needing to go to sleep disappears.
[00:27:19] Cameron: And, we get asleep. So.
[00:27:25] Cameron: Ordinarily, there's a lot of unnecessary effort that typically laces our daily experience, and certainly in performance situations. When, and again, when I say performance, I don't mean standing on a stage per se, but when we're delivering an act, when we're writing our emails, when we're having a conversation, when we're playing with the kids, whatever it is, there's ordinarily.
[00:27:50] Cameron: Unnecessary effort, and if we can
[00:27:56] Cameron: get on board with that, we can also get on board with [00:28:00] intentionally reducing that effort and leading us more and more into flow.
[00:28:09] Kev: Something that comes up for me when you say performing an act is any action. In that sense of performance.
[00:28:18] Cameron: I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever we do something, whenever the body is doing something, it's performing. From my interpretation or my language. Anyway,
[00:28:37] Kev: So how do we learn how to recognize unnecessary effort in ourselves?
[00:28:50] Cameron: one of the easiest ways is to listen to our physiology. When we're stressed, [00:29:00] when we're putting a lot of effort to something, there's normally this tension often around our forehead 'cause we're overthinking. For example, if you're listening to this, just try and read something in front of you or think about something and, and really try and read really effortful or think about something with a great amount of effort.
[00:29:24] Cameron: And you'll feel this sort of tension in, in your, in your head, normally around your forehead. And when we are being effortful, there's this. Instant reaction from our body and our physiology. And if we can become aware of that, then that helps loosen the psychology. And one, technique that I use a lot with people performing at the pointy ends of a, whether it's conducting a surgery or about to jump off a mountain, is.
[00:29:58] Cameron: Relaxing that [00:30:00] space in that forehead. Imagining we have a third eye in between our two eyes and creating a softness with our gaze. And instantly when we do that, we psychologically become more relaxed, more accepting, more calmer in the eye of the storm. And so there's, we can use our physiology to assist our psychology and.
[00:30:27] Cameron: And vice versa.
[00:30:31] Kev: Sounds like unnecessary effort is our default. Why is that?
[00:30:46] Cameron: I mean, I'm not the evolutionist, but I certainly see. An evolutionary pattern there in terms of the more the thinking brain is active, [00:31:00] the more effort we attribute to scenarios or subjective felt effort, I should say. And so I, in my book I talk about the evolutionary errors and the five big mistakes that humans have come to make.
[00:31:19] Cameron: By developing certain parts of our brain by developing certain parts of our human operating system for good reasons at the time, you know, a lot of our reactions and Neurop Psychophysiological responses, which were once very helpful in a modern world in the way that we live with cellophane wrapped meat and
[00:31:43] Cameron: really the only threat we have is to comfort and competence, not life threatening situations. Those biological functions and re and reactions are, still at large in our day to day, [00:32:00] and as a result, the environment we live in doesn't match that. And as a result, it becomes a conflict. It becomes a distraction.
[00:32:09] Cameron: And we add more effort to it. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's our default mode because I, maybe call me the optimist, but I like to see flow as that central way of operating that's just waiting for us if we're willing to peel back the layers. But typically with so much complexity in our upbringing.
[00:32:37] Cameron: The insecurities we carry around that psychological conditioning that we've adapted over the years to protect our wounded childs and, and so forth. There's a complexity there that triggers all those evolutionary errors causing more and more conflict that is otherwise unnecessary.[00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Kev: Hmm. With what you've said so far about the thinking brain, it seems to me that the role of it is to solve problems in some way. And when we talk about this. Effortful way of being that doesn't need to be there.
[00:33:25] Kev: Is it just looking for a problem that doesn't need to be there?
[00:33:33] Cameron: In many cases, a lot of the time, absolutely. In spending time with monks and people who've put a lot of attention into quietening their mind, it becomes quite obvious that it's almost impossible. You know that thinking brain is engineered to think it's what it's designed to do. If [00:34:00] it's active, it's going to be thinking.
[00:34:04] Cameron: So,
[00:34:08] Cameron: In those previous examples, it's, it's rather our attachment and our connection to those thoughts that determine, you know, whether we react and respond to them or not, but. The thinking brain. I like to think of it as a, as a really useful, incredible, one of our best skills or tools in our toolbox, but for most of us, it has become the tool that we take to do every job has become the lens in which we experience the world.
[00:34:47] Cameron: As opposed to being an asset, a tool of many that we bring out when we need it. And part of that is, is educational. A lot of the assessments and [00:35:00] exams, uh, thinking brain assessments. And culturally we tend to reward things.
[00:35:09] Cameron: And don't get me wrong, our thinking brain has enabled me, not all the time, but it's still happening, but enabled us for the most part to stop killing each other and allowed us to stop walking around and fur pelts and allowed us to build cities and, you know, do incredible things and very much part of the scientific framework.
[00:35:33] Cameron: However, it doesn't need to take over all our experience and because of its overreach, because of its need to incessantly think or have something to think about, and a primary narrative for that is there's a problem that needs a solution. What could the solution be? I'm threatened here. How can I feel more insecure?[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Cameron: I've got an agenda here. How can I navigate or manipulate my way to get that innate agenda met? It will continue to think and think, and think, and think, and think, and think, and think, and think and think, and it's why we can have a, choice in front of us and we can give 2, 3, 4, 5 very logical, agreeable.
[00:36:29] Cameron: Solutions to the exact same issue and not always know which one to go down and end up in this sort of analysis paralysis. 'cause all the things we're thinking are potentially good or right or possible. And so.
[00:36:51] Cameron: If we can spend a bit more time understanding what triggers our thinking brain, you know, is it because we're needing to achieve and is it [00:37:00] because we're wanting to fix? Is it because we've got these big. Agendas that we're constantly trying to meet, you know, well what is sort of sparing that on into, into hyperdrive.
[00:37:12] Cameron: If we can get to understand that a bit more, we can loosen the strings and allow a, a more multi-faceted experience.
[00:37:28] Kev: Maybe slightly off topic, but I just can't help myself thinking about it, is this. Overemphasis on thinking and the, the intellectual contents of our brains is that more dominant than the Western and Western cultures?
[00:37:51] Cameron: Traditionally, perhaps, you know, I think in some ways Eastern cultures now are even more brain dominant than than Western. [00:38:00] But like in that more traditional sense, you know, perhaps, and
[00:38:09] Cameron: We talked about AI earlier, certainly is. AI increases and does a lot of our thinking, brain activity for us in a far faster, more effective, more efficient manner. You could argue that there's never a time that's more important to foster and nurture the skills of, the rest of our brain, for example, I guess.
[00:38:38] Cameron: Helping people to distinguish between intuition and logic, helping people distinguish between wisdom and knowledge. Helping people to feel the difference of living through virtues as opposed to having logical values, being able to have [00:39:00] human connection and coach as opposed to direct to a plan. You know all, all that more at schools, can we have more experiential learning that creates embodied skills rather than rote learning, which is a question of memory.
[00:39:19] Cameron: And students often forget quickly after the exam anyway, you know, can we leave people with lasting human skills that is gonna allow us to adapt and meet the future world as opposed to. Take on a few linear skills that are very quickly gonna become redundant with ai.
[00:39:45] Cameron: So, it didn't answer your question directly there, but I think there is a cultural influence for sure, so I think, you know, there's a lot that can be learn moving forwards from, um, from bringing these cultures [00:40:00] together and not just adopting that. Massive. Um, quest we seem to be on to, supercharge the thinking brain and logically justify why we need to consume more and, and have more, more, more, more, more, more, more.
[00:40:27] Kev: It's almost as if you said the role of humans in the age of AI could be to develop the intuition to facilitate more flow and. Use that part of her brain to be more human.
[00:40:48] Cameron: Yeah, I mean, I dunno of where flow has been more required or more needed or the pathway to flow or the flow mindset has been more necessary in our [00:41:00] timeline. So there's, I mean, a, I don't wanna get too much into a conversation about AI 'cause I'm not, not the most literate person to speak about ai, but we, we've certainly got a huge opportunity, at least I think so as a human race to start developing new skills and.
[00:41:23] Cameron: Flow can be a real shining light in how we do that because there's a lot of information we already know and, and the actualization of flow is the actualized self that is using our holistic systems, not just our, our thinking brain. Explicit cogniti.
[00:41:51] Kev: I am wondering, we mentioned education and kids a little bit throughout the whole series i'm wondering if there's something to be said [00:42:00] about how we do education with children in terms of where they are in development with their brains. Should we move more towards experiential learning completely and develop some completely other stuff, and then move on to educating information technical later in life?
[00:42:22] Cameron: I think there's a solid argument for that. If we look at the. The biology of the brain. You know, we know this thinking brain that I'm talking about often associated with that medial lateral prefrontal cortex. Those more frontal, cortical executive functions. They develop very slowly coming into biological maturity when we're 28 and it, it's that.
[00:42:53] Cameron: Glacial biological growth is one of the reasons why as adults we get so annoyed with kids [00:43:00] because they don't have that logic, you know, they, we tell them we're late, and they go, yeah, okay. And then two seconds later, they're looking at the painting on the wall going, wow, that's a beautiful painting.
[00:43:11] Cameron: And you know, they, they, they don't have that logic, that biological functionality. To onboard what we've logically deemed as very, very important, and so trying to force feed logical content into their brain that biologically is not wanting to absorb that information. There are certainly periods in time where the brain wants to absorb that logic.
[00:43:49] Cameron: And that more conscious level thinking, there's certainly times where with huge, the appetite is large. So timing that can be hugely [00:44:00] important. And obviously with, I'm talking generalistic here, you know, there's individuals who always, um. Can, you know, there's, there's four year olds who can read the Lord of the Rings already, and there's, different capacities out there, but
[00:44:20] Cameron: there, I believe there's a reason why we have anxiety issues in five year olds in education. Why? 75% of students are beyond nervous about exams. They're stressed, depressed, burnt out with a whole range of mental illnesses, and
[00:44:54] Cameron: at a time when. We were looking to create humans to fit into [00:45:00] corporations, to do systematic jobs, to have a controlled society, that might have been a good idea to, to cohere the sheep, so to speak. But now when graduates are looking at 17 different jobs in a lifetime, when they're looking at the skills they need.
[00:45:24] Cameron: For leadership are coaching and creativity and meaning making. You know, those aren't often the skills that we're teaching at at certain schools. So in terms of when we look at the neuroscience of how people learn how they deal with emotion and how they access memory and how they perform.
[00:45:54] Cameron: Pretty much all those roads lead to experiential learning being [00:46:00] the most successful method. And I can speak for Australia because I've got a lot more day-to-day, knowledge about Australian. There's often a desire for it. You know, you see the teacher training lectures and there's a willingness and an appetite for it.
[00:46:24] Cameron: But the practical reality for most teachers is they just don't have the time to implement it or to implement It is such a systemic change from how they're normally teaching that it's practically impossible and most teachers are, are struggling just to deal with lesson plans. And behavior management of the students during the task.
[00:46:44] Cameron: So they're finding it so difficult just to get through the day and get through the week and get through the year with all the demands and red tape's on them. It's difficult to integrate a whole new program of experiential learning unless the system is set up for it, which [00:47:00] is where systems like Montessori will, excel.
[00:47:07] Kev: Kim, I think we have so many podcasts, so much information out there, and I'm guilty of this. I listen to a lot of podcasts, but don't really do anything with what I've heard or learned. If the listener, the readers, someone that is experiencing this conversation is going to take one action. That is based on this conversation we had today, what would you say would be, IM the most impactful for a broad spectrum of people.
[00:47:53] Cameron: Coming back to the conversation we had earlier around, what can we do? [00:48:00] To release our psyche from the need to be in control and whether that's, you know, maybe develop fulfilling our more basic needs, whether that's building security, whether that's learning to, to trust, whether that's putting up having more exposure in, in situations that otherwise trigger us, but at the root of being able to be more effortless.
[00:48:28] Cameron: We need to find ways to not worry about losing control in the first place.
[00:48:38] Cameron: And you know, we can start by dancing. You can, if you're driving, be careful. But otherwise, you know, when you're listening to this, you can, we can dance with in one way. And then if we have the intention to be a bit more effortless. Have more fluidity in our [00:49:00] movement then the dancing can feel more effortless.
[00:49:05] Cameron: And often that might come with not carrying what we look like, right? Or, loosening those straps that keep us locked into sort of feeling in control and having control. So find a way to. Let go of the need to control in the moment.
