Jason Farley Interview Part 2: Change the Culture or the Church? [God, Law, and Liberty]

Segway here just a moment because Something you said in there it was part of a the question that was asked or one of the other questions that was asked the other day was Well the supreme court I Reference to supreme court decision that said Well for 20 something years we've had abortion and so people have shaped their lives and defined their views of themselves based on the availability of abortion if contraception fails and and You know the person said well the court could have just said well no, it's wrong. It's bad and we're gonna reverse it and They didn't but you know they could have and I would sort of ask the question well Could they really given What they fundamentally believe is true about the nature of reality and They're their anthropology their understanding of human being and human purpose and When they did reverse it in 2023 or four Roe versus Wade they didn't reverse it on the ground that oh we've been mistaken about what a person is under the 14th amendment They said well we actually interpreted the word liberty and said you had liberty to have an abortion But you couldn't have had liberty because it was actually illegal At the time so they're one the liberty to do it But they still don't know what a human being is or what a person is and what were four and so as a result Multiple states immediately went to work where they could to put a right to abortion into their state constitution Then we saw a week or two ago I think it was Massachusetts or Michigan Removed any restriction on abortion up to the time of delivery Could the Supreme Court Have reversed Row in in 1992 you know when they had the chance I mean Why why why has the reversal of row not caused people to say oh we We now see this is this is a you shouldn't have the liberty to do this We need to restrict this in all of our states instead they codified it in a Constitution's talk a bit about that Yeah, and I think what was telling was when when Roe v Wade happened You didn't have an uproar right It actually took a while for even the the pro-life movement to gain any sort of Momentum because you already had Because the church actually had shared a lot of the assumptions Unfortunately, right it they didn't The the church was in a spot where it didn't have any resistance developed God has used it to develop a Resistance and to force the church to have Discussions that it was not having about the nature of man and what we are and and the nature of the child and the womb and all of those things There were times that abortion was completely unthinkable in the church. I mean the the earliest Church the the earliest document that we have outside of the New Testament Explicitly mentions that abortion is off the table for Christians right so from from the beginning it's been it's been Known in the church, but we've forgotten At a really You know, I was speaking again a at a pro-life event down in California 2010 somewhere around there and a reporter came up and said oh as one of the speakers He knows open I could interview you and say yeah sure let's do this and She said so what what are your What's your political goal in being here and I said you know for the church? This isn't a political question. It's a it's a question about the About reality right this that's for us. It's a question about reality Because the church has opposed human sacrifice from the beginning and she said well, what do you mean? I said the church has opposed human sacrifice from the beginning because of the value of every human as someone made in the image of God but that's that and so I just gave her some history on the opposition to human sacrifice. I said for us. This is a worship question At the heart of this is a worship question and We had a really long discussion about it because it was all brand new to her right for her that I Abortion was a political question. It's a it's a matter of who's in control If we're in control we we this is part of how we That we signal our control is that we you don't get to do something you want to do and and and When I was reframing it as a question of You know human sacrifices invented has existed for a long time and we've opposed that and for us. This is the same question God and I even said God sacrificed his son so we would never have to sacrifice another child That's that's at been at the heart of the message that the church has brought to the world What ended up in the paper was something like you know, Pastor Jason Farley The is here as a Republican representative or something like that You know it was like in a And but she actually called me and apologized she said I wrote in my article what you said the editor changed it And I just wanted you to know that that wasn't me that changed and I tried to put what you said in I think turns and And then we had another nice conversation because it was The the question was for had been was being reframed in her mind As a different sort of story than the one that she thought it was and She actually you know was very thankful that we'd had a such a long nice conversation and but I think That that when you see row pass and the church Roll over or stay quiet the way that it did it it was God Opening his people's eyes to one of their central Um ways they needed to be sanctified um And heresy has always done that in the church You you think everybody you think you're going along fine a heretic comes up and all of a sudden you realize oh We've got we've got work to do Around here and I think abortion is the the lack of of resistance to abortion was evidence of a heretical view of Reality that had settled into the church and was going unchallenged um and Uh, but part of that heretical view is that is that Law defines reality Hmm right and um and we don't solve the problem by agreeing with that and then Trying to enact our own laws right to to fix it I have a couple of follow-up here the first of which is While the response to row or excuse me row happens the response to row um Should be exposing something to Christians Perhaps about themselves not just these are bad people we need to get power and stop them I think that's the way we look at it right now if we got power we could pass along we could stop them But I wrote the other day that the reason the supreme court could go in the direction it was is because the society had already Reved in a certain direction and the court was simply declaring what they saw to be already true And so it was exposing both the failure of the church and the very nature of sin and since the reverse of row We've seen even more powerfully the nature of sin that when When it looks like I can't have my sin anymore You know some some somebody could keep me from my sin I'm gonna go pass it along and stick it in my state constitution that I can go sin Right and so we need it seems to me there's a two sides of the coin the sin in the society Needs to be addressed because it's gonna run in a certain direction people didn't Read row versus Wade and say oh I get to go abort my baby They you know the law is already moving that way and I and I get that the supreme court As the supreme court affirmed that that's good and and then that removed all restrained, you know, but But there's that I guess I'm saying in am I right? There's sort of the two sides of the coin that when we see this evil going on We we may need to look not just at how dark the darkness it is but whether there's really enough light shining on our side Right, right. I think yeah judgment has to begin in the household of God um and And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't want Judgment and justice to grow and spread right, but I think to say You guys have had better hurry up and change When we won't do it ourselves God does not bless that um and and I'm grateful for the overturning of row versus Wade We celebrated we we got out we got a nice roast and a bottle of champagne and we celebrated and The that and uh but I'm thankful to God for giving us more A blessing we didn't deserve yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah But it it continues to have a revealing effect I mean in the church if You can't go You know if if you don't have pastors and elders and leaders in the church that can That can Provide justice or disciple disciple the the Kings to justice you know disciple the lawmakers on justice I don't know why we would expect the lawmakers to be able to To enact justice yeah, right? It's the church's job to disciple the kings of the earth right and we we Don't we wouldn't know how right now. I mean, I think that's the that's the difficulty is um, we want them to be just But we're not being just ourselves You know the uh it didn't hurt an interesting conversation once it was uh you know sitting and listening I was a young man at the time and heard a pastor say well my first goal is that no Christian babies will be aborted in our town Um, and he'd been sitting there you know talking with pro pro abortion folks And they had been arguing for you know the the whim the uh you know all of the normal arguments And he said that and one of them said wait, do you not care about our children? All of a sudden they were children and I thought and and I and You know sort of like a you know fireworks in my head. I thought oh that's really fascinating That he didn't say I'm trying to stop you from getting an abortion. He said first things first I want no Christian child Aborted in our town and she immediately saw her own child as a child. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting It was and I thought well that I think and and I think about that all the time how um how often our our rhetoric is On if ineffective because it's not coming from a an honest of a place of where because it's hypocritical um you know Our own house isn't in order and then we're trying to put their house in order It's like if somebody whose garden is full of dead plants trying to teach the neighborhood garden You know if we garden well They'll come and say wait how does how does she get your squash like that? Why is why are your pumpkins bigger than mine? What are you doing? um And we'll have a We'll have something to tell tell the kings Of the earth when they come and ask um why your god seems to have given you a bit great great laws very just laws And your god is close to you We want those there's no real reason for the world to be jealous of of the the justice in the church Yeah, yeah It one it reminds me of the statement and deuteronomy that the other nations would look at your laws and say wow And and you know I think it was life way had done some research maybe it wasn't but um I remember Abby um Johnson the former abortion clinic director But I looked it up and and the percentage of women having abortion that professed to be Christians is like 86% Yep, if the church just didn't have the those in their pews aborting the babies we would reduce abortion exponentially Suddenly right and instead we feel like we need to go pass a law to keep those people from having those abortions Well, let's figure out what life is ourselves and not abort them But another little question speaking about the response of the church to abortion that feeds over into something that's really Aged me own bothered me for the last 15 years was Did we really learn what we needed from Roe versus Wade That yes, this is abortion is murder. We don't sacrifice our children Because there's a good here. They're they're made in the image of God, but but fruitfulness and marriage are good Right, so outcomes Obergophile in 2015 You know 42 years later And the church gets real upset who are you to think you can do this for about 10 minutes and then Says well at least I'm not marrying gay people As if it doesn't matter that the the Law that transcends your little ceremony in your church Says well, that's irrelevant that that to be a man and a woman The law that transcends the steeple in your building that that applies across the whole of the spirit of Tennessee So to speak that says male and female just aren't relevant and so I'm wondering I don't to be honest Jason. I just don't get that. I don't get how we could see row And then say well yeah life is important, but after the first life life was to come through the relationship of a Of a man and a woman and a covenantal relationship We focused on the unborn child being killed But we didn't talk about the good of motherhood and fruitfulness and then when the Supreme Court said we're defining marriage in terms of unfruitfulness It's irrelevant We said okay, well at least I'm not doing a gay marriage in my church. Can you Talk a little bit about that. I just Seems there was a disconnector. We didn't learn what we needed to learn. I'm Yeah, cuz I think there's a the the the the the church is not answering the deeper question well of What are women and men for what's the mission that God has given us in the world? um What does it mean to be a descendant of Adam and Eve? You know those sorts of questions They don't even really come up. So the assumption that marriage is for my personal happiness is Just is shared just as much in the church as it is anywhere else, right? So whatever I need to do to find Happiness is good um and Marriage is a part of that and marrying the person I want to marry is a part of that right We don't have a defense to that because we don't have um We we don't have different assumptions right are the assumptions that we bring Are shared and we just say but this is gonna make you happier So so so let's go back to something you said just a minute ago Several minutes ago You said You can't change the culture or something like that or society or hearts by operating in the same system That That's given us what we've gotten And I think I'm hearing you say The world says it's about me my happiness and a choice I make And the church is saying yeah, that's really what marriage is at heart and so um When we share that assumption and can't say it's about something more than that We don't really have an answer do we? Yeah, we really don't you know when we treat men and women as As interchangeable cogs just as much as the world does right we don't um the we don't uh Love The the glory of femininity and love the glory of masculinity and the differences and um And and enjoy Enjoy them the way that they're given as gifts uh Any more than the world does you know, it's all We they're we treat them like you know economic units Looking for happiness, you know kind of Aristotle's definition um Just as much as the world does right um and so You know, I mean we we used to my wife and I we only had Four kids but in California that made us really stand out we've walking through Costco and um We first got there, you know Pea people would come up even when we just had three we We couldn't find a place to rent because they said well we don't rent to large families and I'd say well It's okay. We've only got three kids. We're not a large family and are you talking about my weight? What are you talking? Yeah? Yeah, right and um the and The they never thought that joke was funny. We walking through Costco and We had a um older Lady come up to us, you know the dyed pink hair and uh and say Oh my gosh four kids Do you know what causes that um and and I said uh We're trying to figure it out, but we're still experimenting and My wife just put her head in her hands You're like, why do you leave it? Why do you do that? I was like well because it's kind of rude, you know, that's it um but but um also because it's funny and you know uh and Uh my wife said something along the app she walked away was like I think she needs somebody to experiment with her too. She's sad You know The uh but just the the idea that more more kids were a drain Um, it's a drain on resources. We got limited resources and kids are a drain um That that whole You know the the people is a math problem Unfortunately, we do that too and you know the the church growth movement in the 90s was Sociology as as gospel you know um the same way the the modernist movement was psychology Um, we're gonna take psychology in and and try and you know use psychology and the assumptions of psychology for uh church growth we did the same thing with sociology um, you know and uh The re the reification of culture and then the use the the manipulation of people by means of it Was the church growth movement at the 90s right we we are right alongside um them in all of our assumptions And I think we've got to be honest about that, you know um The churches You know lose their kids uh to to the world at about an 80% rate on average um We are not embracing our kids By faith the way that God calls us to and then we see the world lose you know um Doing their version of it and then we say we got it we got to do something we need to stop it um so That's not me opposing trying to get good laws past. I just think it We've got to know what it does and if it's your calling Embrace it in that ecclesiastical sense that says Lord you called me to do this and my limitations are such that I can only work in the present I don't know the future and I and I um but You know, I live under the sun and I've got to live by faith and I can in something I'm going to live by faith in you So so let me let me take that statement and this whole idea you've been expressing that we We bring the world sociology into the church we bring their view of marriage into the church It's about me and happiness and so the world says Everything nothing has any nature or meaning to itself the law just happened to shape you with a certain body parts An anatomy and we decide the meaning and and to do that we need power and so the church says great That's right. That's how the world works So I'll go get my political power and I'll pass my law and that law will then fix This problem. So are we not in that way also dragging their view of how the world works into Yeah, you're right. That's out works. So we need to do it our power and force our law on you Yeah, yeah, I think and I and I think um that that is um a big part of the reason that we are uh, ineffective is because we're fighting against reality You know they're fighting against reality and we say well, but with Jesus's help we'll fight against reality better Yeah, right rather than saying You know actually what is this world that we live in what is this society that we live in according to God and how do we serve it Work for its good According to the principles of reality Right um, you know is it C. S. Lewis as he got older is Made an interesting choice. He talks about it as he shifted to writing um fiction and children's fiction in particular uh away from apologetics because he said um I want to move upstream and baptize the imaginations of as many people as I can um For the long term health of England. Yeah, um and as somebody who Narnia was Was influential on me as a non-Christian before I became a Christian when I was still an atheist um Narnia had a Bap and if imagination baptizing effect on me I think he made the right choice um He could have he could have Gone into politics gone that direction and said you know, I've got to get something to happen now Um and said he said well actually how does the how do people actually work? According to what God says um and uh You know made a choice to to move away from direct apologetics into um imagination formation and has because of that I think his apologetics I don't think we'd still be reading as apologetics if it weren't for Narnia um we wouldn't we definitely wouldn't be reading his academic works if it weren't for Narnia um But but he ended up baptizing um discipling the imaginations of now multiple generations and has had a hugely uh huge hugely positive effect on Just the desire for nobility and civility amongst people um You know in a way that But he he was saying what it would what would it be to cut with the grain of God's world And he was doing that in a time you know Uh, the world war world war two and the disintegration of English English culture was at its peak um And he said Well, I want to work with the way the world is actually built by God Hmm Yeah, the uh Maybe that's a a good place to sort of stop because It comes back to this idea that Christ is made into us wisdom to understand the Who we are as human beings the nature of sin the limits of what enacted laws by men can or cannot do um And When you i've heard you say when you try to press desires into people by law And i've experienced this with you know our daughter um trying to raise her as a good legalist that i was raised to be you know There was a point of great rebellion You know when When the pressure was removed when she could live outside the home and So we we need to take all of those things into consideration when we are legislating And sometimes And you can react to this and welcome but Sometimes the wisdom of God Um goes beyond our logic Because it rests on a premise that's different from the world And oftentimes we drag the world's premises in And we don't realize we've done it And so the day after last week's podcast i opened a mail from a political organization I know of And it said this it's not an exact quote but it said We got an extra one million people in the united states that are Christians registered to vote study show that like only 50% of Christians vote Imagine if we could what we could do if we got another million Christians registered to vote and got them to vote and how we could change culture And and i know i used to think that way You know that if i just get the Christians to vote so we'll we'll change everything but that And maybe just end with your comment on that and i'll say goodbye and good night and But but that seems to me to say I'm thinking the way we win the world we change society we change hearts is through engaging in a rivalrous based Get all my people together get the power past the law And that will change things Do you have any final comments on that thought Yeah, and i think that is it's it's not an uncommon way to think And and you know the the fact that the church has survived this long is just the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit because we're a messed up Yeah people and we always have been but the That's just History tells us that that doesn't work right the scriptures tell us that that doesn't work And then there are i'm sure that god is calling people to The job the the calling of getting people registered to vote that's that doing that in and of itself is not a bad thing Right, and that can be your calling and say well, no, this is what god called me to do and that's great And we do it with all of our All of our heart, you know Do it heartily as unto the lord Paul says right and that's that's a good thing but um Culture is not shaped informed by loss that's not the that's not the the the Power that it that laws have And you know this is And i've had quite a few folks question why i shifted into writing comedy um, you know I've written theology philosophy um and All of this and why did you shift into writing comedy and um It was because of all of this reading that i said well Philosophy theology none of it makes it out into the world by means of the writing of philosophy and theology That's not where it happens It happens in pulpits but god hasn't put me in a pulpit so um At what else am i what else am i good at well i'm married a comedian um i'm i know i'm a good comedy writer i'm If you want to check out my the the pilot episode that was made of my tv show the pks You can find it at lore tv and go watch it and um And you know that i'm working on Uh puberty the musical right now and we know what does it look like to To make the sort of thing that Teens enjoy watching And parents can watch with their teens that's funny and enjoyable and as catchy songs and has a good view of what does it mean to be a boy And what does it mean to be a girl right just yeah But you know Horace says that he who entertains best teaches most um and The when you oh When it comes down to it how do i see the kind of people that god made and said well how can i serve them best i'm good at writing comedy So i'm gonna dive in there and see if i can serve people that way and just What would it look like to baptize the imaginations of a bunch of teens that say actually it's good to be a girl It's good to be a boy i like that yeah i'm glad to be a boy i'm glad to be a girl um Rather than You know and i wasn't called into the law i there was a time when i wondered it lordy call me be deal should i go to law school I'd love i love legal theory you know you and i have talked about it a lot i've read extensively on the history of legal development legal language i love that stuff yeah um but you know um the the way that The the way that i understand the importance of the imagination Uh and discipling the imagination is so central that um That i've i've chosen to go that direction because i care about my society my city my people You know that my my church the teens in my church, you know a lot of my writing started as Just seeing the struggles of the teens in my church. How can i write them Write them something that's better and that they'll enjoy and That they'll laugh at because i i like to say that no one doubts a belly laugh right laughter is involuntary You don't then doubt You you don't doubt and laugh at the same time right um there and so Trying to cut with the grain and You know i have Friends in the law like you like yourself and um that that's their calling And um i think it frees you up to say My job is not change the culture Yes, my job is Is to do whatever god has called me to do heartily as unto the lord leave the results up to him do you know past the best laws that i can and And then also know that i have other jurisdictions too i'm a i'm a parent right i'm a church member I'm you know how do i serve god well as a citizen of my city How do i serve god well as a member of my church and know that in every jurisdiction the job the the the goal the Calling is faithfulness to the lord in my jurisdiction and i don't have to Change every jurisdiction Just what what is god giving me here? How do i serve him here and know that that is How god grows up the seeds that expand the kingdom