WEBVTT
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Any health related information on the following show provides general
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information only. Content presented on any show by any host
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or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
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Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
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or treatment program.
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Hey, everyone, welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm doctor
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loiseauth Schure and I'm here with my co host. I'm
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actually here with my co host and good friend, Carolyn Gazelle.
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How are you, Carolyn?
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Hey, Lise, I am doing great. I'm not gonna rub
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it in, but I guess I am going to rub
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it in. And I am really enjoying retirement. I mean
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having a good time. Lisa. Oh fine, fine, fine, but
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I will I will say I'm a little nervous.
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Why are you nervous?
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Well, because you are going to interview me tonight, and
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I'm not used to that. I'm used to being the
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one asking the questions, not answering them, so I'm a
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little intimidated by that.
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Well, I'm not nervous at all. I think you are
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going to be amazing and I'm really happy to be
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interviewing you because I was so excited when you told
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me that you were going to become a certified grief educator,
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and I thought, wow, we definitely have to do a
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deep dive with this, and you need to share some
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of your recent learnings and talk to people about why
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this is so important. And you know what, you here,
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you are in retirement and yet you're back in there
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studying Greek. That's an interesting thing to do. So I
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just want to hear all about it. But you know what,
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Probiotics dot com. Okay, Lise, where would you like to start?
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Okay, Well, I think first we need to hear a
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little bit more about this grief educator certification program that
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you did, and also maybe you could talk a little
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bit about why why you want to do this after you,
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as you so aptly said, started to happily enjoy retirement.
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Uh, you are not the first person who's asked me
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this question. But first let me tell you a little
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bit about the program. So it was a three month
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commitment and each week there was a lecture led by
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David Kessler. You know, David Kesler is amazing. He's a
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world renowned grief expert and he's an author and He
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was mentored by Elizabeth Kouleros, doctor Elizabeth Koogle Ross, who
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you know. I've learned about doctor Coupler Ross in high school.
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I did a paper on her. So in addition to
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that weekly lecture, David would also lead the weekly lab
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and then there was a guest speaker each week, and
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there were also bonus videos. So it was a lot
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of content, and you know me, Li's I love content,
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so it was great in that sense. So why did
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I want to do this in retirement? Well, first of all,
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I had the time, but I wanted to get this
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certification to further my own understanding of death, dying, loss
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and grieving. I've personally experienced a lot of loss, starting
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at a very young age, and I've had a lot
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of loss throughout my life, including recently over the last
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few years. But in addition to having the information educate
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me about my grief journey, I have always wanted to
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incorporate grief work in my volunteer efforts. So I experienced
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some of the this when I was running an equine
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assisted psychotherapy program in Boulder, Colorado, and that was some
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of the most rewarding work that I've done in my life.
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So we had a program that we collaborated with hospice
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where we had young kids who had a primary loss
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come to the ranch and work with the horses to
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help them heal from their loss. So it was really
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amazing to me. So now I not only have connections
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to horses, but I also volunteer at a mini donkey ranch.
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Very cool. Least I brought you there and now the
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mini donkeys are amazing. I'm also training my Golden Retriever
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puppy to potentially become certified so we can go into
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hospitals or schools. So my entire focus is on working
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with animals, nature and kids who are grieving a primary
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loss like a parent, sibling, or grandparent. I'm so fascinated
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by the combination of nature and animals and healing because
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I've experienced how animals and nature have healed me, you know,
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both as a child growing up around animals and being
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in nature all the time, and as an adult. So
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it's very it's a passion project for me.
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Yeah, I love that, and it sounds actually, I mean,
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this is a weird thing to say, because grief is
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anything but exciting, but it sounds kind of exciting to
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be honest, the way that you're combining such healing forces
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to fundamentally assist these kids who are struggling with really
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things that are feelings and situations that are hard for
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them to grasp and to understand. So I think this
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sounds like a beautiful thing that you've embarked upon. And
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I'm wondering if you could share two things sort of
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what some of the most surprising aspects of about grief
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that you've learned in your grief training, Because you've been
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not far from this topic throughout your career, so it's
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not unfamiliar to you. So what did what surprise you
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about this? And then also just what personally touched you
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about this?
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Well, there was a lot that was familiar, great reminders,
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and there was a lot that was new. And one
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of the things I liked about David Kessler was that
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he was really a master at making this complex topic
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more understandable. So he would have catchphrases to drive home
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a point. It seems a little cliche, but it really helped.
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So for example, one thing that sticks with me is
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I heard him say several times throughout the three month process,
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you can't heal what you don't feel. And he would
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also say, grief needs to be witnessed. And I believe
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that fully. I believe that we as humans we need
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to have our lives witnessed, and our pain and our
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joy's witness So that really resonated. Unfortunately, as a society,
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I think we often don't witness our grief and we
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encourage people to just, oh, just move on from it,
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get over it. But you know what was really important
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to me is he explained that when grief isn't witnessed,
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it gets stuffed and it remains an open wound. And
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this analogy, I felt was brilliant. To hear him describe
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it so clearly was amazing. He explained that we never
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really get over our grief or our loss. We rarely
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move on from it. The loss remains with us forever.
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The goal is to have our grief witnessed, express our
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feelings safely, and eventually integrate the pain of our loss
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and find meaning after the loss, which seems weird, but
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it's so important. So this wound becomes a scar that
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we always have with us. But if we have an
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open wound, you know, we can live with a scar.
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But if we have an open wound and we keep
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reopening that wound. That's when grief and grieving gets especially challenging.
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So the bottom line is we work to heal the wound,
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but the scar is with us forever. So that stuck
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with me. Another thing that stuck with me are secondary losses.
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And I had not thought about this at all, but
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there are so many secondary losses that come with grief.
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So we learned about traumatic grief like losing a child,
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losing a spouse, having a loved one with dementia, losing
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somebody to suicide or addiction. So all of these losses
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are traumatic, but they also come with so many other
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secondary losses like who am I going to vacation with?
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I'm not going to see my child Mary, you know,
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with the I'm losing connection and communication with my loved one.
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So all of these second secondary losses need to be
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grieved as well as the primary loss. So that was
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really important. And finally, this was really surprising to me. Lise.
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He explained that grief and grieving comes with so much judgment.
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He explained that everyone seems to have an opinion, and
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so many people are quick to give that opinion. Right.
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We were told often that it is not our role
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as grief educators to give advice. Giving advice is judging.
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You know. For example, a family member may say, well,
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you know, it's been a year, it's time for you
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to move on. That's judgment. So we meet the grieving
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individual wherever they are in the process, and we bear
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witness to their journey, and then we help them talk
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about their feelings, talk about their loved ones or their loss,
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you know. And that's something that didn't happen for me
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throughout my entire lifetime every time I experienced a loss.
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And it's really quite surprising how many different types of
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losses there are, you know, divorce, miscarriage, loss of a parent,
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and I mentioned some of the more traumatic one. It
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doesn't matter the loss, each one of those need to
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be witnessed without judgment. And that really hit home for me.
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Yeah, so important, gosh, I mean, there's plenty of other
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things we can judge, need to judge this.
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I mean, yeah, it's a hard enough time to begin with,
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and then to feel and then it's it's not safe.
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You know, you need to feel safe if you're going
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to be processing these very difficult emotions.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, So.
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You mentioned that, David Kessler trained with doctor Elizabeth Koubler Ross.
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I think a lot of people are familiar with doctor
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Elizabeth Kugler Ross as a name and associate her with
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the stages of grief. Like she really basically said, hey, look,
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there's this thing called grieving and there's sort of a
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pattern to it. So she gave permission, i think, for
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people to grieve in many ways. And she named five
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stages of grief denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. So
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if grieving is so individual as you just indicated, how
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do these five stages or do these five stages still
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stand and how do they influence that individualized grieving process?
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You know, they do still stand, And I'm so glad
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that you brought this up, because I think doctor Kugler
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Ross's work was horribly misunderstood for a very long time.
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You know, as a society, we want things neat and
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tidy and orderly. We like quick fixes. So in a way,
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she gave us that quick fix. She's like, oh, you're grieving,
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step one, step two, et cetera. And I think people
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took it as a formula that everyone follows the same
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and boom, boom boom, you're done. But David explained very
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clearly that that's not really what was what she intended.
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He was so close to her, he was at her deathbed.
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He's written several books with her. You know, their kids
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played together. I mean, so he knew her very well,
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and he said, this is not what she intended. Yes,
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there are five stages, but they're not linear. People can
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move in and out of one stage, they can skip stages,
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they can experience the stage years after the loss, so
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it's very it's very fluid, and in fact, in this
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certification program, we didn't spend much time at all on
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the stages. We focused more on the individual's journey and
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meeting them where they are. You know, so often society
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wants to fix things, and you know, grief can't be fixed.
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It can be transformed, it can be integrated, but it
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can't be fixed. It doesn't need to be fixed. So
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the key is to try to find hope after a loss.
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And that's a process, and as you and I both know,
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it's often a painful process. So what we're trying to
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do is we're trying to transform that pain into love
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and honoring the loss or the person. And that's not
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easy and it's definitely not a quick fix.
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Yeah, yeah, okay, good. I mean that's a very interesting
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and important perspective and just reaffirms the individuality of this
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process and how important it is to honor that. So
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what other highlights have there been for you during this
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grief certification program?
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Wow? I mean there were so many. I hope that
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you and I can do another topic, another show on
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this topic, because there was just a lot. I really
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learned a lot from David Kessler, and I felt he
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was an amazing speaker and an amazing teacher actually, but
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I also love the guest speakers. So I liked the
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speaker who talked about what we can do physically to
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help us heal, and you know, a list that made
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me think of our I Thrive program and five to
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Thrive because he talked about being out in nature and
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movement and diet and getting enough sleep, all of these
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things that we can do self care help us physically
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go through our grief. But then there was a guest
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speaker who talked about how grief affects the brain. And
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here's an interesting little connection, Lise. The speaker who talked
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about the grieving brain was researcher doctor Mary Francis O'Connor.
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I quoted doctor O'Connor in the article I wrote a
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year ago for Psychology Today about the harmful effect of
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unresolved grief, and she was I'm glad I quoted her,
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but she was even more amazing in person. So in
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that lecture, doctor O'Connor explained that grieving is a form
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of learning. Just think about that, like that kind of
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takes the sting away just in and of itself, because
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it is it's we learn from our grief. And she
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emphasized that not everyone learns the same. So the connection
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between grief and the brain is all about love and attachment.
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We hang on to the grief because we have difficulty
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transforming that attachment and we get stuck in a cycle.
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We ruminate, we create narratives that don't serve us, we
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don't re engage, et cetera, et cetera. So she says,
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we need to give our brain new data with awareness.
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By making small changes, we can basically what she says,
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we can basically re word wire our brain so it's
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not so painful. So, for example, if I reach for
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the phone to call my loved one who's died, that
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can become a painful reminder, or it can become a cue.
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So in that moment we can choose to shift gears.
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It's not easy, I'm telling you that, but instead of
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thinking about, oh, I want to talk to my loved
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one that fills me with sadness or anger or depression
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or some other intense feeling, we can maybe use that
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moment as a cue to pause and think about things differently,
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like oh, I want to call and talk to my
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loved one because I appreciated them, I love them, and
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you know they were so special to me. So that
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simple pause, according to doctor O'Connor, can help rewire the brain,
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so the grief becomes less painful. And you know, you
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and I Leis have written about and talked about the
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power of love, and this is what happens when we
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rewire that brain. We give the power to love, not pain.
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We give the power to love not loss. Love is
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so much stronger than the loss, and that's what can
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help us. We can recalibrate. I mean, obviously it gets
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complicated when the loss is traumatic, you know, like I
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mentioned suicide, addiction, or or let's say the person who
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dies was horribly abusive. Those are all very complex losses
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and traumatic losses. But remember, the goal is to transform
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our losses into a scar versus a wound that keeps
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getting reopened. So I think that that those were those
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are definitely some highlights, and so much of the course
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was interesting. And I'll just close with one other guest speaker.
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I really liked Emma Willness. Emma Willis is Bruce Willis's wife.
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Of course, Bruce Willis has has a horrible brain condition
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right now, and she was so authentic in her pain
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as a caregiver. She talked openly about her anger and
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how she realized that. She said, anger is pain's bodyguard.
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And she said, we need to make friends with anger
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and all of those other intense emotions. So she explained,
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and here's another great catchphrase that I liked, emotions need motion.
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So the way we give emotions motion is by recognizing
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and honoring them, even the tough emotions like anger, guilt,
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and frustration. We had an entire week on guilt. And
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I think that these intense emotions are the ones that
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can be really hard to grapple with, and you know,
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and that's what causes us to recoil. And we're going
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to oh, wait a minute, I'm feeling angry and my
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husband is sick. You know, I'm a horrible person, you know,
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And then we start stuffing things and then we feel
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anger again and boom, that wound is reopened. So until
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we really look at the anger and look at all
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these intense emotions, we're going to keep reopening that wound
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and it's not going to become a scar and we're
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not going to be able to live with it. So
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she was, she was very powerful, and I believe that
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she did an amazing thing. We also had a whole
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week on excuse me, how to help grieving children, which,
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as we mentioned in the beginning of the show, is
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part of my passion. So, Lise, here's a troublesome statistic.
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One in eleven children in the United States will experience
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a primary loss before age eighteen. In the state of
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New Mexico, it's one in seven. Here's the other really
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thing that you and I are so passionate about. These
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children who have experienced a loss before age eighteen. As
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they grow into adulthood, they're at far greater risk of
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developing anxiety, depression, and addiction. So if in fact, we
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can help these kids process their grief and turn that
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open wound into a scar that they're able to live with,
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we can hopefully reduce their risk of having other serious
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health issues later in life. And I think that's powerful,
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and I think that that's what it comes down to
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as a human race, if we process our grief and
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if we you know, if we do the work and
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we look at these feelings and we feel safe in
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expressing these feelings. So I have to say the certification
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program was very rewarding. I learned a lot and I'm
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excited to put it into action with my volunteer work
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with animals, nature and kids.
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So I was going to ask you to just dive
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into that a little bit more like how, and I
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won't hold you to this, but at this early stage,
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how do you envision doing that given what you've learned
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and what some of just touching on some of the
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things you've just said, Well.
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So you know, I've had a lot of experience with horses,
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I have not had a lot of experience with donkeys.
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And I looked up there's actually research showing that donkey
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therapy can help, which is amazing. But let me give
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you an example. So one of the things that is
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key with grieving and processing your grief is feeling safe.
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And oftentimes children in particular don't feel safe to express themselves.
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They don't express their grief in school because they feel different.
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They often don't. They kind of go in and out
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of their grief. One minute they're grieving, in the next
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minute they're playing, and they kind of puddle jump, is
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what we call it. So here's a cool thing about donkeys. Lise.
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Donkeys are innate protectors. Horses are flight animals, not donkeys.
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Donkeys are put with sheep and goat herds because they
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will protect that herd no matter what. So imagine if
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we bring some kids in, we start talking about donkeys
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and we start telling them about, you know, hey, the
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donkey's role in life is to keep other animals safe.
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And then we have an interaction and they're grooming the donkeys,
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and we start talking about you know, you know, what
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what makes you feel safe and when when do you
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feel safe in talking about your loved one, and so
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the the interaction with the donkey and having that conversation,
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all of a sudden, this young child is talking about
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their parents who died or their sibling who died and
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it facilitated the donkey helps facilitate the conversation and the healing.
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It's really it's really powerful stuff. And I've seen it
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firsthand with horses, and I'm excited to see it firsthand
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with the donkeys. And there are there are other examples
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of themes that we can use, uh to help stimulate
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healing with these grief groups for kids.
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So I'm going to put you on the spot for
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a moment, and I imagine that there are some people
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listening to this very episode at this very minute too,
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are in active grief. And I say active because I
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think people who have had a significant loss will always
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carry some grief with them, but as you say, it
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becomes more scarred over time.
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But you know, there are people.
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Listening that have a wound of grief occurring. Is there
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anything that knowing that people are at different stages and
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different times and you can't give them, you know, tell
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them what to do, is there any kind of assurance
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that you can provide or something that you might distill
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out of your training that could provide them with some comfort.
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Well, there are lots of resources, first and foremost, and
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I feel like the first thing I want to say
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is find your witness or your witness tribe and find
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a safe place to talk and don't be afraid to
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talk and to you know, remember and think about that
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loved one, because that is probably one of the most
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challenging things because oftentimes people are like, well, I don't
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want to talk about my loved one who died because
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it's just going to make me sad, or it's just
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going to make me angry, it's just going to make
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me this. I find a way to express yourself and
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find your way to embrace the love. The grief and
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the pain that you're feeling is because of the depth
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of love that you had for that you know, person
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or whatever, even if it's a divorce or a pet
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or whatever. You know. So, yeah, find your witness and
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find the love and do everything you can to hang
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on to hang on to that you can heal that
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open wound.
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Yeah, and I think find the pause too. I love
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that thing you started with at the beginning. Just remember
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use the pause to remember that whatever feelings of sadness
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and anger and overwhelm are coming up are because of
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the feelings of love that you just talked about.
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Yeah, absolutely, all right, Lisa, are you willing to have
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another show about this because I would love to hear.
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I mean you, over the years as a physician, you
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have cared for so many people with challenging illnesses like cancer.
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You've worked closely with caregivers. I would love to learn
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from you what you want to share about loss, grief
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and the grieving process. We're out of time now, but
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unless you have a just a quickie, but I think
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we'd need to do another show.
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What do you think, Well, yeah, we can do another show,
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but I and at that time you'll have some some
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donkey stories to tell us, which will be yes, good.
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But I can just say quickly that you know, I
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think in my time of working with people who are
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especially people who are dealing with cancer and chronic disease
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and who lose loved ones or who are losing their
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own bodily form as we know it, all that kind
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of grief, I have just been continually so touched by
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the courage that people bring to the grieving process. And
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to your point, it shows up so differently for each person,
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and each expression of grief is valid for its own reasons.
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But I think that you know, people who have a
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loved one that they're losing to a chronic illness, have
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both a luxury and a curse of having that be
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a longer process. So they have the luxury of being
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able to make, you know, start saying goodbyes and getting
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used to doing things differently and so forth. But then
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it's a bit of a curse because they're in grief.
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They're like they're having both current and anticipatory grief all
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at once. And so, you know, I just think it
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takes a lot of courage, and I've just been so
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impressed with it, and so I think I would say
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that regardless of where people are, that when grief comes
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to pay its visits, everybody can count on the fact
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that they will discover a repository of courage they didn't
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even know existed.
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Excuse me, that's great, all right, Lise, Well, this has
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been a great show. Thank you for letting me talk
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about my passion. And I would love to once again
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00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.880
thank our sponsors. First pro Thrivers Wellness, Sleep and Brain Formulas,
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00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:38.480
Cetria Glutathion doctor oh here is award winning probiotic and
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00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.559
remember you can find past shows at I thriveplan dot
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00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:44.480
com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.839
Yes, thanks to our sponsors and thanks for listening. May
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00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.680
you oh you know what before? May you you can
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00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.400
find all of our past show podcasts on I thriveplan
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00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:58.680
dot com. And may you experience joy, laughter and love.
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It's time to thrive.
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I have a great night. Sh
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Any health related information on the following show provides general
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information only. Content presented on any show by any host
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or guests should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
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Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
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or treatment program.
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Hey, everyone, welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm doctor
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loiseauth Schure and I'm here with my co host. I'm
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actually here with my co host and good friend, Carolyn Gazelle.
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How are you, Carolyn?
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Hey, Lise, I am doing great. I'm not gonna rub
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it in, but I guess I am going to rub
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it in. And I am really enjoying retirement. I mean
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having a good time. Lisa. Oh fine, fine, fine, but
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I will I will say I'm a little nervous.
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Why are you nervous?
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Well, because you are going to interview me tonight, and
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I'm not used to that. I'm used to being the
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one asking the questions, not answering them, so I'm a
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little intimidated by that.
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Well, I'm not nervous at all. I think you are
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going to be amazing and I'm really happy to be
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interviewing you because I was so excited when you told
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me that you were going to become a certified grief educator,
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and I thought, wow, we definitely have to do a
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deep dive with this, and you need to share some
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of your recent learnings and talk to people about why
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this is so important. And you know what, you here,
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you are in retirement and yet you're back in there
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studying Greek. That's an interesting thing to do. So I
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just want to hear all about it. But you know what,
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before we dive in, Carolyn, can you thank our sponsors? Oh?
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Probiotics dot com. Okay, Lise, where would you like to start?
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Okay, Well, I think first we need to hear a
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little bit more about this grief educator certification program that
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you did, and also maybe you could talk a little
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bit about why why you want to do this after you,
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as you so aptly said, started to happily enjoy retirement.
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Uh, you are not the first person who's asked me
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this question. But first let me tell you a little
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bit about the program. So it was a three month
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commitment and each week there was a lecture led by
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David Kessler. You know, David Kesler is amazing. He's a
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world renowned grief expert and he's an author and He
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was mentored by Elizabeth Kouleros, doctor Elizabeth Koogle Ross, who
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you know. I've learned about doctor Coupler Ross in high school.
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I did a paper on her. So in addition to
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that weekly lecture, David would also lead the weekly lab
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and then there was a guest speaker each week, and
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there were also bonus videos. So it was a lot
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of content, and you know me, Li's I love content,
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so it was great in that sense. So why did
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I want to do this in retirement? Well, first of all,
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I had the time, but I wanted to get this
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certification to further my own understanding of death, dying, loss
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and grieving. I've personally experienced a lot of loss, starting
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at a very young age, and I've had a lot
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of loss throughout my life, including recently over the last
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few years. But in addition to having the information educate
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me about my grief journey, I have always wanted to
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incorporate grief work in my volunteer efforts. So I experienced
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some of the this when I was running an equine
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assisted psychotherapy program in Boulder, Colorado, and that was some
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of the most rewarding work that I've done in my life.
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So we had a program that we collaborated with hospice
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where we had young kids who had a primary loss
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come to the ranch and work with the horses to
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help them heal from their loss. So it was really
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amazing to me. So now I not only have connections
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to horses, but I also volunteer at a mini donkey ranch.
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Very cool. Least I brought you there and now the
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mini donkeys are amazing. I'm also training my Golden Retriever
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puppy to potentially become certified so we can go into
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hospitals or schools. So my entire focus is on working
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with animals, nature and kids who are grieving a primary
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loss like a parent, sibling, or grandparent. I'm so fascinated
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by the combination of nature and animals and healing because
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I've experienced how animals and nature have healed me, you know,
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both as a child growing up around animals and being
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in nature all the time, and as an adult. So
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it's very it's a passion project for me.
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Yeah, I love that, and it sounds actually, I mean,
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this is a weird thing to say, because grief is
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anything but exciting, but it sounds kind of exciting to
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be honest, the way that you're combining such healing forces
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to fundamentally assist these kids who are struggling with really
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things that are feelings and situations that are hard for
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them to grasp and to understand. So I think this
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sounds like a beautiful thing that you've embarked upon. And
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I'm wondering if you could share two things sort of
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what some of the most surprising aspects of about grief
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that you've learned in your grief training, Because you've been
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not far from this topic throughout your career, so it's
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not unfamiliar to you. So what did what surprise you
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about this? And then also just what personally touched you
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about this?
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Well, there was a lot that was familiar, great reminders,
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and there was a lot that was new. And one
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of the things I liked about David Kessler was that
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he was really a master at making this complex topic
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more understandable. So he would have catchphrases to drive home
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a point. It seems a little cliche, but it really helped.
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So for example, one thing that sticks with me is
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I heard him say several times throughout the three month process,
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you can't heal what you don't feel. And he would
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also say, grief needs to be witnessed. And I believe
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that fully. I believe that we as humans we need
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to have our lives witnessed, and our pain and our
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joy's witness So that really resonated. Unfortunately, as a society,
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I think we often don't witness our grief and we
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encourage people to just, oh, just move on from it,
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get over it. But you know what was really important
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to me is he explained that when grief isn't witnessed,
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it gets stuffed and it remains an open wound. And
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this analogy, I felt was brilliant. To hear him describe
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it so clearly was amazing. He explained that we never
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really get over our grief or our loss. We rarely
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move on from it. The loss remains with us forever.
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The goal is to have our grief witnessed, express our
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feelings safely, and eventually integrate the pain of our loss
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and find meaning after the loss, which seems weird, but
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it's so important. So this wound becomes a scar that
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we always have with us. But if we have an
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open wound, you know, we can live with a scar.
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But if we have an open wound and we keep
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reopening that wound. That's when grief and grieving gets especially challenging.
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So the bottom line is we work to heal the wound,
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but the scar is with us forever. So that stuck
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with me. Another thing that stuck with me are secondary losses.
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And I had not thought about this at all, but
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there are so many secondary losses that come with grief.
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So we learned about traumatic grief like losing a child,
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losing a spouse, having a loved one with dementia, losing
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somebody to suicide or addiction. So all of these losses
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are traumatic, but they also come with so many other
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secondary losses like who am I going to vacation with?
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I'm not going to see my child Mary, you know,
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with the I'm losing connection and communication with my loved one.
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So all of these second secondary losses need to be
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grieved as well as the primary loss. So that was
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really important. And finally, this was really surprising to me. Lise.
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He explained that grief and grieving comes with so much judgment.
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He explained that everyone seems to have an opinion, and
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so many people are quick to give that opinion. Right.
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We were told often that it is not our role
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as grief educators to give advice. Giving advice is judging.
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You know. For example, a family member may say, well,
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you know, it's been a year, it's time for you
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to move on. That's judgment. So we meet the grieving
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individual wherever they are in the process, and we bear
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witness to their journey, and then we help them talk
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about their feelings, talk about their loved ones or their loss,
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you know. And that's something that didn't happen for me
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throughout my entire lifetime every time I experienced a loss.
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And it's really quite surprising how many different types of
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losses there are, you know, divorce, miscarriage, loss of a parent,
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and I mentioned some of the more traumatic one. It
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doesn't matter the loss, each one of those need to
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be witnessed without judgment. And that really hit home for me.
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Yeah, so important, gosh, I mean, there's plenty of other
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things we can judge, need to judge this.
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I mean, yeah, it's a hard enough time to begin with,
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and then to feel and then it's it's not safe.
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You know, you need to feel safe if you're going
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to be processing these very difficult emotions.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, So.
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You mentioned that, David Kessler trained with doctor Elizabeth Koubler Ross.
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I think a lot of people are familiar with doctor
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Elizabeth Kugler Ross as a name and associate her with
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the stages of grief. Like she really basically said, hey, look,
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there's this thing called grieving and there's sort of a
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pattern to it. So she gave permission, i think, for
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people to grieve in many ways. And she named five
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stages of grief denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. So
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if grieving is so individual as you just indicated, how
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do these five stages or do these five stages still
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stand and how do they influence that individualized grieving process?
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You know, they do still stand, And I'm so glad
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that you brought this up, because I think doctor Kugler
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Ross's work was horribly misunderstood for a very long time.
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You know, as a society, we want things neat and
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tidy and orderly. We like quick fixes. So in a way,
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she gave us that quick fix. She's like, oh, you're grieving,
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step one, step two, et cetera. And I think people
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took it as a formula that everyone follows the same
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and boom, boom boom, you're done. But David explained very
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clearly that that's not really what was what she intended.
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He was so close to her, he was at her deathbed.
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He's written several books with her. You know, their kids
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played together. I mean, so he knew her very well,
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and he said, this is not what she intended. Yes,
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there are five stages, but they're not linear. People can
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move in and out of one stage, they can skip stages,
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they can experience the stage years after the loss, so
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it's very it's very fluid, and in fact, in this
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certification program, we didn't spend much time at all on
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the stages. We focused more on the individual's journey and
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meeting them where they are. You know, so often society
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wants to fix things, and you know, grief can't be fixed.
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It can be transformed, it can be integrated, but it
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can't be fixed. It doesn't need to be fixed. So
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the key is to try to find hope after a loss.
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And that's a process, and as you and I both know,
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it's often a painful process. So what we're trying to
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do is we're trying to transform that pain into love
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and honoring the loss or the person. And that's not
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easy and it's definitely not a quick fix.
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Yeah, yeah, okay, good. I mean that's a very interesting
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and important perspective and just reaffirms the individuality of this
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process and how important it is to honor that. So
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what other highlights have there been for you during this
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grief certification program?
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Wow? I mean there were so many. I hope that
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you and I can do another topic, another show on
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this topic, because there was just a lot. I really
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learned a lot from David Kessler, and I felt he
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was an amazing speaker and an amazing teacher actually, but
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I also love the guest speakers. So I liked the
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speaker who talked about what we can do physically to
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help us heal, and you know, a list that made
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me think of our I Thrive program and five to
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Thrive because he talked about being out in nature and
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movement and diet and getting enough sleep, all of these
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things that we can do self care help us physically
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go through our grief. But then there was a guest
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speaker who talked about how grief affects the brain. And
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here's an interesting little connection, Lise. The speaker who talked
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about the grieving brain was researcher doctor Mary Francis O'Connor.
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I quoted doctor O'Connor in the article I wrote a
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year ago for Psychology Today about the harmful effect of
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unresolved grief, and she was I'm glad I quoted her,
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but she was even more amazing in person. So in
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that lecture, doctor O'Connor explained that grieving is a form
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of learning. Just think about that, like that kind of
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takes the sting away just in and of itself, because
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it is it's we learn from our grief. And she
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emphasized that not everyone learns the same. So the connection
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between grief and the brain is all about love and attachment.
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We hang on to the grief because we have difficulty
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transforming that attachment and we get stuck in a cycle.
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We ruminate, we create narratives that don't serve us, we
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don't re engage, et cetera, et cetera. So she says,
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we need to give our brain new data with awareness.
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By making small changes, we can basically what she says,
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we can basically re word wire our brain so it's
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not so painful. So, for example, if I reach for
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the phone to call my loved one who's died, that
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can become a painful reminder, or it can become a cue.
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So in that moment we can choose to shift gears.
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It's not easy, I'm telling you that, but instead of
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thinking about, oh, I want to talk to my loved
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one that fills me with sadness or anger or depression
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or some other intense feeling, we can maybe use that
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moment as a cue to pause and think about things differently,
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like oh, I want to call and talk to my
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loved one because I appreciated them, I love them, and
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you know they were so special to me. So that
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simple pause, according to doctor O'Connor, can help rewire the brain,
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so the grief becomes less painful. And you know, you
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and I Leis have written about and talked about the
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power of love, and this is what happens when we
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rewire that brain. We give the power to love, not pain.
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We give the power to love not loss. Love is
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so much stronger than the loss, and that's what can
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help us. We can recalibrate. I mean, obviously it gets
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complicated when the loss is traumatic, you know, like I
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mentioned suicide, addiction, or or let's say the person who
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dies was horribly abusive. Those are all very complex losses
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and traumatic losses. But remember, the goal is to transform
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our losses into a scar versus a wound that keeps
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getting reopened. So I think that that those were those
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are definitely some highlights, and so much of the course
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was interesting. And I'll just close with one other guest speaker.
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I really liked Emma Willness. Emma Willis is Bruce Willis's wife.
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Of course, Bruce Willis has has a horrible brain condition
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right now, and she was so authentic in her pain
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as a caregiver. She talked openly about her anger and
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how she realized that. She said, anger is pain's bodyguard.
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And she said, we need to make friends with anger
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and all of those other intense emotions. So she explained,
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and here's another great catchphrase that I liked, emotions need motion.
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So the way we give emotions motion is by recognizing
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and honoring them, even the tough emotions like anger, guilt,
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and frustration. We had an entire week on guilt. And
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I think that these intense emotions are the ones that
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can be really hard to grapple with, and you know,
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and that's what causes us to recoil. And we're going
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to oh, wait a minute, I'm feeling angry and my
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husband is sick. You know, I'm a horrible person, you know,
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And then we start stuffing things and then we feel
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anger again and boom, that wound is reopened. So until
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we really look at the anger and look at all
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these intense emotions, we're going to keep reopening that wound
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and it's not going to become a scar and we're
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not going to be able to live with it. So
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she was, she was very powerful, and I believe that
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she did an amazing thing. We also had a whole
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week on excuse me, how to help grieving children, which,
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as we mentioned in the beginning of the show, is
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part of my passion. So, Lise, here's a troublesome statistic.
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One in eleven children in the United States will experience
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a primary loss before age eighteen. In the state of
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New Mexico, it's one in seven. Here's the other really
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thing that you and I are so passionate about. These
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children who have experienced a loss before age eighteen. As
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they grow into adulthood, they're at far greater risk of
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developing anxiety, depression, and addiction. So if in fact, we
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can help these kids process their grief and turn that
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open wound into a scar that they're able to live with,
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we can hopefully reduce their risk of having other serious
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health issues later in life. And I think that's powerful,
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and I think that that's what it comes down to
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as a human race, if we process our grief and
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if we you know, if we do the work and
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we look at these feelings and we feel safe in
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expressing these feelings. So I have to say the certification
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program was very rewarding. I learned a lot and I'm
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excited to put it into action with my volunteer work
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with animals, nature and kids.
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So I was going to ask you to just dive
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into that a little bit more like how, and I
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won't hold you to this, but at this early stage,
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how do you envision doing that given what you've learned
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and what some of just touching on some of the
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things you've just said, Well.
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So you know, I've had a lot of experience with horses,
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I have not had a lot of experience with donkeys.
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And I looked up there's actually research showing that donkey
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therapy can help, which is amazing. But let me give
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you an example. So one of the things that is
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key with grieving and processing your grief is feeling safe.
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And oftentimes children in particular don't feel safe to express themselves.
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They don't express their grief in school because they feel different.
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They often don't. They kind of go in and out
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of their grief. One minute they're grieving, in the next
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minute they're playing, and they kind of puddle jump, is
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what we call it. So here's a cool thing about donkeys. Lise.
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Donkeys are innate protectors. Horses are flight animals, not donkeys.
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Donkeys are put with sheep and goat herds because they
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will protect that herd no matter what. So imagine if
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we bring some kids in, we start talking about donkeys
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and we start telling them about, you know, hey, the
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donkey's role in life is to keep other animals safe.
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And then we have an interaction and they're grooming the donkeys,
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and we start talking about you know, you know, what
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what makes you feel safe and when when do you
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feel safe in talking about your loved one, and so
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the the interaction with the donkey and having that conversation,
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all of a sudden, this young child is talking about
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their parents who died or their sibling who died and
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it facilitated the donkey helps facilitate the conversation and the healing.
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It's really it's really powerful stuff. And I've seen it
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firsthand with horses, and I'm excited to see it firsthand
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with the donkeys. And there are there are other examples
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of themes that we can use, uh to help stimulate
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healing with these grief groups for kids.
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So I'm going to put you on the spot for
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a moment, and I imagine that there are some people
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listening to this very episode at this very minute too,
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are in active grief. And I say active because I
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think people who have had a significant loss will always
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carry some grief with them, but as you say, it
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becomes more scarred over time.
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But you know, there are people.
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Listening that have a wound of grief occurring. Is there
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anything that knowing that people are at different stages and
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different times and you can't give them, you know, tell
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them what to do, is there any kind of assurance
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that you can provide or something that you might distill
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out of your training that could provide them with some comfort.
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Well, there are lots of resources, first and foremost, and
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I feel like the first thing I want to say
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is find your witness or your witness tribe and find
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a safe place to talk and don't be afraid to
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talk and to you know, remember and think about that
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loved one, because that is probably one of the most
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challenging things because oftentimes people are like, well, I don't
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want to talk about my loved one who died because
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it's just going to make me sad, or it's just
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going to make me angry, it's just going to make
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me this. I find a way to express yourself and
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find your way to embrace the love. The grief and
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the pain that you're feeling is because of the depth
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of love that you had for that you know, person
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or whatever, even if it's a divorce or a pet
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or whatever. You know. So, yeah, find your witness and
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find the love and do everything you can to hang
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on to hang on to that you can heal that
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open wound.
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Yeah, and I think find the pause too. I love
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that thing you started with at the beginning. Just remember
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use the pause to remember that whatever feelings of sadness
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and anger and overwhelm are coming up are because of
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the feelings of love that you just talked about.
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Yeah, absolutely, all right, Lisa, are you willing to have
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another show about this because I would love to hear.
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I mean you, over the years as a physician, you
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have cared for so many people with challenging illnesses like cancer.
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You've worked closely with caregivers. I would love to learn
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from you what you want to share about loss, grief
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and the grieving process. We're out of time now, but
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unless you have a just a quickie, but I think
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we'd need to do another show.
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What do you think, Well, yeah, we can do another show,
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but I and at that time you'll have some some
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donkey stories to tell us, which will be yes, good.
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But I can just say quickly that you know, I
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think in my time of working with people who are
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especially people who are dealing with cancer and chronic disease
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and who lose loved ones or who are losing their
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own bodily form as we know it, all that kind
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of grief, I have just been continually so touched by
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the courage that people bring to the grieving process. And
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to your point, it shows up so differently for each person,
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and each expression of grief is valid for its own reasons.
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But I think that you know, people who have a
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loved one that they're losing to a chronic illness, have
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both a luxury and a curse of having that be
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a longer process. So they have the luxury of being
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able to make, you know, start saying goodbyes and getting
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used to doing things differently and so forth. But then
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it's a bit of a curse because they're in grief.
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They're like they're having both current and anticipatory grief all
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at once. And so, you know, I just think it
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takes a lot of courage, and I've just been so
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impressed with it, and so I think I would say
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that regardless of where people are, that when grief comes
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to pay its visits, everybody can count on the fact
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that they will discover a repository of courage they didn't
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even know existed.
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Excuse me, that's great, all right, Lise, Well, this has
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been a great show. Thank you for letting me talk
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about my passion. And I would love to once again
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00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.880
thank our sponsors. First pro Thrivers Wellness, Sleep and Brain Formulas,
451
00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:38.480
Cetria Glutathion doctor oh here is award winning probiotic and
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00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.559
remember you can find past shows at I thriveplan dot
453
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:44.480
com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
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00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.839
Yes, thanks to our sponsors and thanks for listening. May
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00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.680
you oh you know what before? May you you can
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00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.400
find all of our past show podcasts on I thriveplan
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00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:58.680
dot com. And may you experience joy, laughter and love.
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00:29:58.839 --> 00:29:59.920
It's time to thrive.
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I have a great night. Sh
