Michael Palm

WEBVTT
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Out of the street corners they scream. You knew it
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was coming. You've been waiting for this for months. Rumour
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hardened into fear and now they scream at you. The sirens,
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the hysterical wail tearing through the white noise of the city.
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And you run. You run to pick up those things
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that can never be replaced. A picture of them in
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the days when they still loved you. Your mother's wedding ring.
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And then you turn to your shelf of games. You
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only have room for five. Five Games for Doomsday. Five
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Games for Doomsday is a show in which board game
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personalities are thrust into a cabin in the woods to
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outrun an oncoming disaster, but can only take five of
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their games with them. But which will they choose? My
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guest this week is a businessman, game designer and sometime podcaster.
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Growing up in Baden-Württemberg in a political family, he would
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enter the world of game retail, opening the shop Seetal
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on Lake Constance. He's best known in the world of
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games for his design, though, and has designed many titles
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with his design partner Lukasz Czach. including von Falkenstein, Bang
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the Dice Game, but it's probably most well known for
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his Spiel des Jahres winning Juggernaut Dorf Romantic. My guest
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this week is Michael Palm. Michael, welcome to the Cabin.
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Thank you, Ben. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
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And of course, I'm not only this, I'm a nerd,
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a big nerd.
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I mean, clearly a big nerd. So my question is,
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how difficult was it for you to pick the five
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games to take to the Cabin?
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Well, it's very difficult for me because I know some
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games and I like a lot of games and I
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love board games, card games. So hopefully I picked the
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right one to talk about. And of course, for the doomsday,
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then the right one that it's not will not get
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so boring.
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Well, I mean, you're stuck in a cabin with me, Michael.
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So never, never boring.
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May I open the door and go just outside?
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There's a lot of zombies out there, Michael. There's a
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lot of zombies.
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Well, 5,000 or you, I choose the zombies. No, okay.
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So let's go back to the beginning then. So you
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grew up in Baden-Württemberg, which is the south of Germany.
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Can you tell us about this part of the country?
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Yeah, it's the southwest of Germany. It's near the border
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to Switzerland, for example. Of course, a part of it
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is the Schwarzwald, so the Black Forest, which is important
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for us. And of course, the Lake Constance is part
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of Baden-Württemberg. That's why I went to Constance to study
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there the laws. And well and it's a little bit
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divided because Baden-Württemberg it's a part one part is Baden
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and the other part is Württemberg and they well a
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little bit let's we don't hate each other but of
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course it's a little bit competition between these two parts
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of Baden-Württemberg.
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And it's kind of famous in Germany because the leader
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of the the Bundesland, the federal district, is from the
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Green Party. Is Baden-Württemberg quite sort of eco-conscious, quite green?
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Well, we had the first, in Konstanz, for example, we
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had the first mayor, green mayor in Germany too. And
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some cities here like Freiburg, for example, is also a
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green city, Tübingen too. So the cities where a lot
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of students are. But the Green Party in Baden-Württemberg is
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not the Green Party from the whole country. It's a
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little bit more conservative. It's a little bit more, a
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little bit green and a little bit black.
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So black for the listeners, meaning CDU, which is the
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color of the Christian Democratic Party in Germany.
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That's right.
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And so on that then, so you grew up in
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a political family. Your father was a politician. Your brother
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is a politician. Was. Was a politician. I apologize. What's
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it like to grow up in such a family with
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politics being so close to the dinner table?
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Well, first of all, it's like a normal childhood, of course,
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for you because– You don't know other families or the
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structure of other families or the childhood in other families,
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of course. But when I was five, five and a half,
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my father was secretary of Baden-Württemberg, first for the justice
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and then for the inner security and later on for
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the finance. And it was the first time Two jobs
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as secretary were a hard time because the RAF, the
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Rote Armee Fraktion, it was a group of terrorists, not
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a lot of, but they were a hardliner, so they killed.
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So in Britain, and I'm not sure in America, they're
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known as the Bader-Meinhof Group.
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That's right. Bader-Meinhof Group was then a part of the RAF,
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and they killed people. Just because they are from the system,
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from the system, so the government or the economic system.
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And they kidnapped people in hard ways. So my childhood
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was really a little bit different from other childhoods, I think,
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because I was brought to the school by the police.
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And to the early musician lessons with the pipe, I
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was brought with the police and the police took some
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examples from my voice as a child, for example, that
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they could hear the differences when I will be kidnapped,
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for example. But my parents always tried to get it
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away from me us, the three brothers, I have two
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older brothers, that we have a, well, let's say normal childhood.
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We were friends and we were also in the school
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as normal, not with an agent or with a bodyguard
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on our side and so on. So it was a
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decision what's important for the security and what's important, of course,
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for the childhood and the growing up, that it's normal. But,
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for example, in the harder times, when we went to France,
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for example, for two weeks in our vacancies, my mother
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was with three boys, his husband, of course, my father,
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and then a driver from my father and eight policemen
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were with us. So it was a big group for us.
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It was also funny because we had always some guys
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to play soccer, football on the beach, at the beach
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and so on. But it was, well, special.
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And so then why didn't you enter politics?
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That's a good question. I think... I think it was,
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I had enough politics in my childhood, I think. So
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normally when you are going to study some topics, you're
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going to your first, what, semester?
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Yeah, semester.
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Semester, okay. So you're going to your first semester, you
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will get more and more politic. Your mind is more
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political than as a child, but I had a lot
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of politics and discussions in my childhood, so that's why.
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I think that's why I had other interests. For example, games.
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So on that then, thank you for the brilliant segue,
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when did games enter your life?
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I had a, well, just with the start, I think,
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I had a grandma who played very well Canasta and
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very well Halma I don't know if it's Halma is
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it also Halma.
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That's a good question you carry on and I'll do.
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Some research but she couldn't she was not happy when
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she lost so it was a hard teacher for me
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and then I had I called her grandma another person
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I called her grandma And she was so kind on
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the board, on the board game table. And we could
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go some fields more than we rolled the dice. But
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when it's a five, I could go a seven too
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and so on. She was very, very friendly with us.
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So I learned the board game from two sides. And then...
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Then we played usual games as brothers, like Risk, for example,
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and I draw then some new countries into Risk onto
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the map, and my brothers played it with me, my
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new rules or my new map, for example. And then very,
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very important for me was at the age of 12
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that I learned Dungeons & Dragons and the world of
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the role-playing games. Because one new student came into our
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class from Brazil. He was a German who lived in Brazil,
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grew up in Brazil. And then he brought the English
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bass set, the red bass set from Dungeons & Dragons.
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And he played it with us. For me, really, today,
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you would say mind-blowing because it was fantastic. a gate
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which opened not just into another room, just into another world,
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into other possibilities to play, that you have to be
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creative on the table, not by inventing games, but also
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in the game, during the game, as the game master,
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also as a player or a character. And so on.
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And that's why the role-playing games are so important for
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me till today. I played with my two sons, with
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my wife. And when I'm not playing some role-playing games
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on the table, I'm something missing.
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So what came first then? Because you have basically two
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professional strands in your life. You've got game design and
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you own a shop. What came first, the dream of
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owning a shop or designing games?
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Well, when I was 18, I had no dream in
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this direction. Not the one or not the other. It
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was just having fun with games and board games. And I...
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founded a little circle at the university to play board
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games and so on. But then we just thought it
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would be nice to have a shop for comics and
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games in Konstanz, because in every other city with a
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lot of students like Freiburg and Karlsruhe and Tübingen, there
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was already a shop, but not in Konstanz. So we
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opened it for... Four young men opened it. The Seetroll,
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the name was from my brother. He told me, come on,
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name it like Bodenseetroll or just the Four Seetrolls. And
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so we took the Seetroll. And we thought we just
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open it for two, three or four years. And it's
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a lot of fun to get the games for a
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better price. But then half an hour later, Magic came out.
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We had Magic in the beta version, just some starters.
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And then, of course, the whole wheel got faster and
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faster with Magic. So another half year, another six months later,
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we moved to the location we are now till today
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since now 32 years and um and then well from
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the four partners one get out and did other things
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and the next and then since 2007 i'm the owner
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alone of course with a very very good team now
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um And they like the shop and they like the profession, too,
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to sell games and comics and make people happier. It's
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not a bakery. Everybody has to go to the bakery.
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When you have an apothecary, most of them are ill
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when they are coming to you. But, of course, not
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in the theater or in the game shop. Well, and then...
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Because I learned the shop... Through the Seetrol, I learned
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a lot of people. And I met a lot of people,
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not only at the conventions and the fairs, also on
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the gaming table, on the board game table. And then
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one day, there was a prototype in front of me.
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And the prototype... was the prototype from Serenissima. So I
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saw what's the profession of designing the game. And I
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hoped that one day I will have one game on
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the market. That's it. That's it. My dream was not
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to be a game designer for my whole life. But
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then it gets more and more and with the connection
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to Lukas, which is a friend of mine and my
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partner in game design since now 23 or 24 years,
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it got more and more professional. And now it's my dream,
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my living dream that I could just think about new
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game mechanisms and yeah, bring new games onto the market.
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So, your first game, then, is a game that's been
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picked a few times on this show, and I never
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quite understand why people pick it. Because this is diplomacy,
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and this is a game that ends friendships. Why are
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you taking this to a post-apocalyptic cabin?
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Well, it's because I'm a game designer. I think... A
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game which ends friendships is Junta a little bit more.
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Because the sense of humor in the game of Junta,
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it's part of the game that you say, yes, yes,
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of course, I will do it. I will support you.
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And you are doing it not. And five times in
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a game with the same person. But in Diplomacy, when
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you step the dagger into the back of the other,
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then that's that's it ends the connection to this player
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of course but i selected it because it has so
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just a few rules just a few rules but it's
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so complex it starts always at the same in the
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same manner you have no um You have no dice
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or cards inside, which make them a little bit more variable.
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It starts always at the same manner, but it's always
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another game. So that's why I picked it.
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And so what's your experience with Diplomacy, and are you
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good at it?
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I played it first, of course, on the board, like
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the normal board game, but then... I played it with
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my brother Ulrich together, play by mail. And the mail
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was not the mail today, the email. It was just
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a postcard we sent to the game master during one week.
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And after a week, we got the new resolution. Thank you.
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the new resolution for the next turn. And then we had, well,
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let's say, three, four or five days to trade and
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to talk with the others. And then we had to
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write a postcard because it took two days, three days
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that it would get to the Game Master another time.
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And so it was a very intensive experience for me
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to have a game which... lasts two months or three
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months and that you are hoping that today the resolution
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will come it was the Rhein-Neckar zines or it was
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a photocopied magazine with other games of diplomacy and with
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other games like Deichwandern or some other economical or post-apocalyptic
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games and so That's why I'm very emotional with this game.
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And so do you think, because it was designed in
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the 1950s, do you think the game was ahead of
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its time?
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Yes, I think so. For me, it's a milestone on
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the market. For the modern game market, of course, milestones
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are also backgammon or chess, of course. Well, when you're
257
00:20:00.269 --> 00:20:04.950
into sports, of course, soccer, football also, and so on.
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I read now a a comic about the history of
259
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soccer from a split of luck. It's very, very interesting.
260
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But from the modern games, I think diplomacy is a,
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is a milestone and it's, it's, yeah.
262
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So I want to talk now about you as a designer.
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So you've mentioned your design partner, Lukasz Czach. How did
264
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you two meet?
265
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It's a, it's a funny, it's a funny story. Lukasz Czach,
266
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:45.400
was worked at Bex so the beer Bex you know
267
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it oh yeah yeah yeah Bex from your party evenings.
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I don't know what you're talking about I am my
269
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body is a temple Michael.
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Of course a temple of yeah okay.
271
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It's a destroyed temple but a temple nevertheless.
272
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In the in the black eye universe it's a temple of.
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Raja yeah yeah Slanesh yeah.
274
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Yeah in another universe. He worked there and he just
275
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wanted to get into the gaming market. Just one step
276
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into this direction and he went to his gaming shelf
277
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and he closed his eyes and just picked one game
278
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from his own and it was Blood Race it was
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my second um game which were um which were was
280
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a very brutal uh game and so he wrote an
281
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email to this game designer and it was me and
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um I was in Hamburg some weeks later because I
283
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:07.890
designed with my partner Sebastian Jakob I designed um behind
284
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for Ravensburger, the first trading card game from Ravensburger. And
285
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then I went to a convention to Hamburg. So we
286
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.160
came from Bremen to Hamburg, it's not very far away.
287
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And then we met each other for the first time.
288
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And after then, he came to us into the south
289
00:22:27.819 --> 00:22:31.180
of Germany for one week and we just did a
290
00:22:31.220 --> 00:22:35.359
little bit holidays, but also, of course, we were talking
291
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about ideas. And one game which was designed in this
292
00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:51.539
time was the Coach Ride to Devil's Castle. It was
293
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our first game on the market together. And it was
294
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best card game in Italy, in Lucca, for example. And
295
00:23:01.029 --> 00:23:05.440
this year, there will come a big box after 2020.
296
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:09.430
after 22 years or something like that, it will come
297
00:23:09.470 --> 00:23:14.869
a big box from Adlung Spiele with the expansion inside.
298
00:23:17.109 --> 00:23:20.369
And so then, you know, you designed together and you've
299
00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:23.519
designed together for 23 years. What is it about your
300
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.059
relationship that makes your design partnership work so well?
301
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.470
Of course, in some ways, Topics we think the same.
302
00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:44.029
We like bluffing games, for example. We like to create
303
00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:48.519
worlds and we like role-playing. So when you have a
304
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:52.400
normal board game, but with a little bit of the
305
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.599
atmosphere of a role-play, I think it's a better board
306
00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.759
game than without a little bit the atmosphere of role-playing. And,
307
00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:05.480
of course, we are in some ways different too. For example,
308
00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:10.920
he has a very good eye for layout, for illustrations. And,
309
00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:14.680
of course, one of my advantages is that I know
310
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the market as a trader and know what's popular at
311
00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:29.720
the moment or when some games... the market is still missing.
312
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:36.960
The gamers are still missing some kind of games. And
313
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we are both, I think, very tolerant in the opinions.
314
00:24:42.849 --> 00:24:49.630
And to find a way which is possible for 23
315
00:24:49.630 --> 00:24:52.230
to 24 years, you have to be tolerant, of course.
316
00:24:52.250 --> 00:24:59.269
And every idea has to just came has to come
317
00:24:59.420 --> 00:25:03.930
out and we are discussing sometimes uh for for days
318
00:25:04.109 --> 00:25:07.890
about a game which is which will never be published
319
00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:13.029
just to to to get if it's a good idea
320
00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:18.809
or not um and yeah we we invented for a
321
00:25:18.890 --> 00:25:23.289
long time two days a week and now we have
322
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:28.589
for half days it's of course the mathematics says it's
323
00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:35.630
the same but um the the early hours are more
324
00:25:35.710 --> 00:25:41.950
productive very more productive very much more productive um than
325
00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:48.740
the than at 3 p.m so we have yeah and
326
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.839
of course now we have with dof romantic and boss
327
00:25:51.900 --> 00:26:01.140
fighters qr to nice game lines, game series. But of course,
328
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:05.170
they are cutting us a lot of time to get
329
00:26:05.650 --> 00:26:09.450
new ideas on the market. But we love it.
330
00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:13.359
And so you've designed, I was looking at your list
331
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:17.920
when writing up these notes, You designed across all kinds
332
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of genres. I remember when Bang the Dice came out
333
00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:24.400
and I loved it. And it was just about a
334
00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:26.420
month ago I was looking at it in the shop
335
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:28.349
and I was like, oh, bloody hell, that's Michael and Lucas.
336
00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:29.069
I didn't realise.
337
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:31.230
You're a fanboy, right? I am.
338
00:26:31.390 --> 00:26:34.609
I'm an incredible fan of yours, Michael. But do you
339
00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:36.710
have a type of game where you think that you
340
00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:38.289
and Lucas are strongest?
341
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Strongest?
342
00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:44.430
Yeah, a genre, a type of game where you think... Yeah,
343
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I know.
344
00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:47.329
I don't know the kind of game. I think we
345
00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:54.599
are very strong as cooperative games. Well, the bang, you
346
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named the bang dice game. Of course, there is our bluffing,
347
00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:05.200
which we like very, very much. But cooperative games, we
348
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:12.240
are very strong. And also, I started with... some trading
349
00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:15.980
card games um i designed the simpsons trading card game
350
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not the one from wizards of the coast the other
351
00:27:19.769 --> 00:27:23.309
one we were the first simpsons trading card game and
352
00:27:23.789 --> 00:27:27.769
behind and need for speed trading card game and for
353
00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:34.279
dragon hunters uh it's um a series in the tv
354
00:27:34.299 --> 00:27:40.970
um So we are also strong, I think, in complex games.
355
00:27:41.130 --> 00:27:47.250
But nowadays we just like cooperative games, family games, peaceful games.
356
00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:55.359
Let's say in the computer gaming market, let's say cozy games.
357
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We like it. And I think we are weak in
358
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:09.799
pure communication games. We like communication games and we like
359
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:14.180
to communicate, of course. That's why I'm here with you, Ben.
360
00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:23.589
But a game like Just One, for example, reduced to
361
00:28:24.849 --> 00:28:33.210
the purest communication game, it's for me a masterpiece. and
362
00:28:33.509 --> 00:28:37.109
we thought about communication games, and we had some prototypes,
363
00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:41.259
and they are good, but they are not as good
364
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:48.500
as our cooperative tactical games, let's say.
365
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:50.940
So, you know, you've got these two strands of your life.
366
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.660
You've got game design, and then you've got CETOL. How
367
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.589
do you manage to juggle both jobs together?
368
00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:05.650
With a very tolerant wife. First of all, with a
369
00:29:05.690 --> 00:29:13.869
very tolerant family, with my parents. My father had another
370
00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:17.529
life than me, but he was very tolerant, and my
371
00:29:17.569 --> 00:29:24.640
mother too. And then with a tolerant wife, and with
372
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:30.500
a very good team in the CETROL. I could give
373
00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:33.559
them the key and say, okay, now I'm for two
374
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:38.490
weeks on fairs and conventions or just in my room
375
00:29:38.589 --> 00:29:46.839
to think about. And they are doing their jobs with
376
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.319
a very big passion.
377
00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:54.289
So your next game then is Atlantis. What is special
378
00:29:54.349 --> 00:29:55.089
about this game?
379
00:29:57.369 --> 00:30:02.119
It was... For me, the first game, which was a
380
00:30:02.299 --> 00:30:08.859
mix-up from a board game with an electrical... I don't
381
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:15.769
say electronical, with an electrical game. Of course, it was
382
00:30:16.069 --> 00:30:19.430
also a little bit role-playing, because you had your own
383
00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:28.500
character and a fantasy game. But it was... it was
384
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:35.660
thrilling because you heard the moves and the turns from
385
00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:41.769
the others. You heard some noises, the noise of a
386
00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:47.849
door or the opening of a market and so on.
387
00:30:48.230 --> 00:30:55.299
But you couldn't see all the details. What was on
388
00:30:55.339 --> 00:30:58.859
the market? What was the price for him or her?
389
00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:02.059
And so on. So it was very thrilling and a
390
00:31:02.140 --> 00:31:09.119
very good game idea, I think. If it works today,
391
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:13.460
I don't know. But I think so. Of course, today
392
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:19.240
you would maybe take a nap instead of a black tower.
393
00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:24.859
But I played it a lot. I played it a lot,
394
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:29.039
a lot, a lot, and made some optional rules, of course,
395
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:30.119
and so on.
396
00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:35.730
And so, you know, talking about this, having an electronic
397
00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:40.890
part of a game that is good at imparting certain
398
00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:46.559
pieces of information and not others, reminds me of Boss Fighters.
399
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:50.460
Were you thinking about Atlantis when you were designing that game?
400
00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:56.009
That's a good question, Ben. The question shows that you
401
00:31:56.089 --> 00:32:01.970
know the market and you know the games. I say no,
402
00:32:02.470 --> 00:32:07.839
we didn't think about it if we could make a
403
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:15.880
game like Darktower, The Atlantis, or just take some mechanisms
404
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:22.720
or atmosphere from the game, no. But now, with your questions,
405
00:32:23.259 --> 00:32:26.880
I would say maybe deep in my heart, yes. Could be,
406
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.539
could be. Of course, it was not cooperative, so the
407
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.150
atmosphere is a whole other atmosphere than at Boss Fighters.
408
00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:40.390
But yeah, it's a good question, so maybe yes.
409
00:32:42.170 --> 00:32:43.809
So I want to talk now about.
410
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:49.200
The game you're probably most well-known for, and that's Dorf Romantic.
411
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:51.789
And this is an adaptation of a video game. First
412
00:32:51.829 --> 00:32:53.789
of all, how did you get the contract to design
413
00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:54.230
the game?
414
00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:06.700
It was the first lockdown. And the first lockdown during Corona, COVID. And,
415
00:33:07.900 --> 00:33:10.839
of course, everybody had a little bit more time to
416
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:18.400
think about new projects. And we were already six months
417
00:33:18.619 --> 00:33:25.880
on a game, on a tile-laying game with hexagons in
418
00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:35.230
the South Sea. And it was good, but not very good.
419
00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:41.069
And then Lukas, who's still working the other days in
420
00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:46.890
the computer gaming industry, on the computer gaming market, he
421
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:52.849
saw that a game from a very small studio was
422
00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:58.329
nominated for the Deutsche Computerspielpreis, so for the German Computer
423
00:33:58.369 --> 00:34:04.990
Gaming Award. And he said, hey, take a look at
424
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:08.559
this game and now mix it with our South Sea game.
425
00:34:10.300 --> 00:34:15.199
And the really... Yeah, and we did it. And then
426
00:34:15.699 --> 00:34:19.650
we thought during the first lockdown, we thought, okay, let's
427
00:34:19.730 --> 00:34:25.469
do it with their look. Let's do it with not
428
00:34:25.630 --> 00:34:29.110
on the water, but on the grass fields and with
429
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:34.909
the villages. It's Dorf, it's village, yeah. And with the
430
00:34:34.969 --> 00:34:38.440
mill and so on and so on. And so we...
431
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:45.940
made a made a prototype virtual prototype on table of
432
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:52.460
simulator and we wrote to we wrote an email to
433
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:58.760
Pegasus get this license get this license and pick why
434
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:03.500
Pegasus because we were very good linked with Pegasus and
435
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.199
are very good linked with Pegasus of course till today
436
00:35:08.090 --> 00:35:12.659
and They wrote an email to Tucana, the four guys
437
00:35:12.739 --> 00:35:18.079
who made the computer game from Love Romantic. But they
438
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:24.280
had so popular time because they blow up and get
439
00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:29.409
rocket on the computer gaming market that they didn't answer
440
00:35:29.429 --> 00:35:33.909
to the first mail. Then we said to Pegasus, write
441
00:35:33.989 --> 00:35:38.050
another mail, write another mail. And the second was answered.
442
00:35:38.170 --> 00:35:41.630
And so we could show the team from Tucana our
443
00:35:41.889 --> 00:35:45.769
idea of a board game from the computer game on
444
00:35:46.429 --> 00:35:55.099
a virtual platform. And they understood that we understood them.
445
00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:01.920
That it has to be cooperative, that it has to
446
00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:08.260
be cozy, peaceful. but with some tactical possibilities that you
447
00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:12.500
could play just for you like i don't know patience
448
00:36:12.579 --> 00:36:16.159
is it patience in english patience so like the game
449
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.889
patience just i want to have a half an hour
450
00:36:19.969 --> 00:36:26.530
just another some other feelings than normally in a working
451
00:36:26.590 --> 00:36:30.139
day for example um But you could also play it
452
00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:33.980
very tactical. No, no, no, this is a good space
453
00:36:34.059 --> 00:36:37.280
for the circus who will come and so on. Let's
454
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:41.380
plan it and so on. Yeah, and that's why we
455
00:36:41.420 --> 00:36:49.039
got the license and all the things, the other steps,
456
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:53.480
which then after this one were a dream.
457
00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:59.750
And so when you were making this game, You know,
458
00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:03.329
it's easy to say in retrospect it was, you know,
459
00:37:03.730 --> 00:37:07.280
we knew it was going to be fantastic and super successful.
460
00:37:07.340 --> 00:37:09.840
But did you have a feeling it might be special?
461
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:18.679
My first special feeling was when Klaus Ottmeier, who is
462
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:26.300
the head of the– Yeah, the.
463
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:27.980
Head publisher, the editor-in-chief.
464
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:32.199
Yeah, the editorial chief, that's it. He has a very
465
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:36.050
good nose for special games. He showed me, for example,
466
00:37:36.130 --> 00:37:40.369
he showed me Azul, and it was at Pegasus. For
467
00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:43.429
the first time, the first Azul, and he showed it
468
00:37:43.550 --> 00:37:46.719
to me with, and in his eyes, I saw that
469
00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:53.659
he saw the success of the game. And normally he
470
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.320
doesn't work at special projects. He's just the head and
471
00:37:58.699 --> 00:38:06.630
tries to get everything in one house and that every
472
00:38:07.510 --> 00:38:13.829
game gets its resources. And then he saw it and
473
00:38:13.849 --> 00:38:18.110
we played it and he said, yes, that's very good
474
00:38:18.230 --> 00:38:21.630
and I will do it. And that was the first
475
00:38:21.650 --> 00:38:25.369
step we thought about. It could be very good. It
476
00:38:25.409 --> 00:38:28.250
could be special. Yeah.
477
00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:32.829
And so then when it was nominated, did you expect
478
00:38:32.889 --> 00:38:36.869
the nomination or was it out of the blue?
479
00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:41.730
You know, I'm an emotional guy. You know it, Ben.
480
00:38:42.489 --> 00:38:47.090
When we meet each other, we make some... Some jokes
481
00:38:47.190 --> 00:38:50.130
and so on. And I like to meet people. And
482
00:38:53.269 --> 00:38:56.949
I'm an emotional guy. And during the half an hour
483
00:38:57.869 --> 00:39:05.409
after the fair in Essen, so 2022, October 2022, and
484
00:39:05.489 --> 00:39:10.119
in the next month, of course, we read the opinions
485
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.340
from the jury in the internet, in newspapers, and so on.
486
00:39:17.690 --> 00:39:22.510
And then, of course, your hope is growing and growing,
487
00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:27.150
of course. But you have also two kids. They were
488
00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:29.730
five and seven when they tested it for the first time.
489
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:36.010
So then they were seven and nine. And you don't
490
00:39:36.030 --> 00:39:41.429
have to, you can't say every day, hopefully it will
491
00:39:41.469 --> 00:39:46.909
get nominated and so on. But then when it was nominated,
492
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.400
Let's say I was crying because I was so happy.
493
00:39:51.780 --> 00:40:00.269
I never defined a life aim for me that I
494
00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:04.769
would want a nomination in my life. I never did it.
495
00:40:04.849 --> 00:40:08.590
But then I thought about maybe my heart wanted it
496
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:15.280
so much. And then we had to wait one and
497
00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:19.699
a half more months And it was very thrilling this
498
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:21.940
evening at the Preisverleihung.
499
00:40:22.489 --> 00:40:24.869
Well, that's because you met me for the first time
500
00:40:24.909 --> 00:40:25.210
in person.
501
00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:29.909
That's right. I thought, okay, now I met Ben. What
502
00:40:29.969 --> 00:40:33.130
could be better? Maybe now I'm just leaving.
503
00:40:34.349 --> 00:40:35.670
Before the award was announced.
504
00:40:35.929 --> 00:40:39.329
Yeah, of course. I'm just leaving Berlin and go happy
505
00:40:39.369 --> 00:40:44.179
to my Lake Constance. But then I waited just some
506
00:40:44.699 --> 00:40:49.260
hours more. I think one hour more. One and a
507
00:40:49.300 --> 00:40:54.539
half hour. And yeah, it was the best. After the
508
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.590
birth of our sons, it was very, very good and
509
00:40:59.610 --> 00:40:59.989
the best.
510
00:41:00.929 --> 00:41:04.510
And so then, you know, everyone talks about how important
511
00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:08.050
winning the Spiel des Jahres is. And for the publishers...
512
00:41:08.670 --> 00:41:11.269
it's important because you sell a lot of copies. For
513
00:41:11.289 --> 00:41:16.469
the designers, it's important because you sell a lot more
514
00:41:16.550 --> 00:41:19.679
games than a normal design that doesn't win the Spiel
515
00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:23.980
des Jahres does. So what has been the legacy for
516
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:27.079
you two as designers of winning the Spiel des Jahres?
517
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:39.300
Well, the market know your names. And I don't, lucas
518
00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:42.429
and me we are not we are not designing games
519
00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:46.289
that everybody knows our names we are just doing it
520
00:41:46.590 --> 00:41:50.650
of course one aspect is the money of course because
521
00:41:50.690 --> 00:41:54.190
we have to to get some food for our children
522
00:41:54.289 --> 00:41:57.800
family or want some make some holidays and so on
523
00:41:57.860 --> 00:42:01.920
of course of course but The first thing is that
524
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:06.809
we like our profession as game designers so much that
525
00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:09.449
we are doing it just for the fun at the
526
00:42:09.510 --> 00:42:11.969
first time. Now, for 24 years, we had some games. Yeah,
527
00:42:12.150 --> 00:42:14.550
we got 120 euros in a year or something like that.
528
00:42:14.650 --> 00:42:28.630
And then you have to... Spiel des Jahres, the game
529
00:42:28.690 --> 00:42:31.670
of the year. Um, and of course the sellings are
530
00:42:31.949 --> 00:42:37.659
going up. Um, but then what's really cool is that
531
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:42.519
every company comes to you and asks you if you
532
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:46.139
have some game ideas for them too. Normally we are,
533
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:48.699
I'm just saying it now in the, uh, 2026. Um, normally, um,
534
00:42:48.739 --> 00:42:58.460
we are, we are, um, We have two or three
535
00:42:58.699 --> 00:43:04.219
new games per year, maybe four. But now in Essen
536
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:09.599
in October, we will have eight new games. And that's
537
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:16.550
why we won the prize 2023. Then 2024, the companies
538
00:43:16.630 --> 00:43:22.030
are coming to you and then designing games with the
539
00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:24.969
illustration and so on and so on. It takes two years.
540
00:43:26.579 --> 00:43:29.500
That's why we have now eight new games.
541
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.760
So your next game then is the Spiel des Jahres
542
00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:38.639
of Spiel des Jahres winners. And this is Catan. How
543
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.380
important is Catan to board games?
544
00:43:41.659 --> 00:43:48.909
Very, very, very important. When I say... I said that
545
00:43:48.949 --> 00:43:55.309
diplomacy is a milestone. Catan is a milestone too. Catan... Well,
546
00:43:55.329 --> 00:44:00.510
Catan was not... like for example Dominion the first deck
547
00:44:00.570 --> 00:44:07.559
building game or I don't know let's say Seven Wonders
548
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:12.199
the first picking game both of them I think were
549
00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:16.019
influenced by the trading card games because I make a
550
00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:19.989
deck before the game in the trading card game and
551
00:44:20.050 --> 00:44:24.110
in Dominion I make my deck build my deck during
552
00:44:24.150 --> 00:44:27.530
the game And the picking system is, of course, a
553
00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:31.320
booster picking system from Magic and other trading card games.
554
00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:43.960
But the mixture of Catan is a very good mixture.
555
00:44:44.380 --> 00:44:49.989
You have some unknown factors like the dice, of course, and,
556
00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:55.139
of course, the trading. And I think one aspect of
557
00:44:55.179 --> 00:45:01.440
the success of Catan is that everybody grows. After a game,
558
00:45:01.539 --> 00:45:03.760
at the end of the game, one has 10 points
559
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.780
and the other have 9, 7 and 7, let's say.
560
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:16.119
It's very rare that someone has only 4 points or 5.
561
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.340
So everybody feels that it was a good game, but
562
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:25.429
the others were a little bit faster. I think. And
563
00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:31.869
one aspect that makes the Catan very successful, I think,
564
00:45:31.969 --> 00:45:38.050
is that it's for a broad market. Everybody could play it,
565
00:45:38.090 --> 00:45:43.630
but it's really at the edge, I think, that it's
566
00:45:43.949 --> 00:45:50.650
too complex for the broad market. But everybody thinks, oh, yes,
567
00:45:50.829 --> 00:45:54.360
I did it. I got it. I I had a
568
00:45:54.460 --> 00:45:55.760
great time with this game.
569
00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:59.269
It would probably be Kennerspiel now, do you think?
570
00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:02.590
I think so too, because the Kennerspiel of the jury,
571
00:46:03.789 --> 00:46:11.079
for me, it's a family plus game. It's between our nerds.
572
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:19.489
Our nerds would say it's not a Kennerspiel. But for
573
00:46:19.510 --> 00:46:25.179
the market and for the jury, it's a family plus game,
574
00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:30.559
so it's a Kennerspiel. Like T-Car too, like El Grande,
575
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:36.010
one year after Catan, El Grande and T-Car, I think
576
00:46:36.389 --> 00:46:38.150
today they will be Kennerspiel des Jahres.
577
00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:42.210
And so what effect did Catan have on you, not
578
00:46:42.289 --> 00:46:44.929
just as a gamer, but also as a designer?
579
00:46:48.090 --> 00:46:53.260
Catan was, first of all, Catan was very important for
580
00:46:53.300 --> 00:46:57.000
the whole market, for the German board game market and
581
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:01.199
years after years, then for the whole worldwide market, I think.
582
00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:07.969
And so also for the CETROL. Board gaming was not
583
00:47:08.289 --> 00:47:15.610
a nerdy hobby. It was then like going into the cinema.
584
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:25.219
into the movie theater it was like today after Corona
585
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:31.750
the lockdowns did also help for the gaming market but
586
00:47:32.090 --> 00:47:36.389
Catan did it as a first game and it's still
587
00:47:36.550 --> 00:47:43.340
after 30 years it's still a modern product I think
588
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:51.929
You see it now at the Handball World Championship. The team,
589
00:47:51.969 --> 00:47:55.730
the German team plays always Catan and so on. So
590
00:47:55.769 --> 00:48:01.159
they are linked to the game. And for me as
591
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:09.360
a designer, well, it was special because it was one
592
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:15.110
of the first Spiel des Jahres and which I know then,
593
00:48:15.329 --> 00:48:21.159
not personally, but I saw then at the fairs, Klaus Teuber,
594
00:48:21.579 --> 00:48:26.199
and I could link the game designer to the game
595
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:30.510
for the first time. So that was very special. But
596
00:48:30.530 --> 00:48:44.349
I didn't design some game ideas. and had in my
597
00:48:44.409 --> 00:48:47.909
mind that it should be like Catan or something like that.
598
00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:52.880
But of course, a lot of games came out with the, well,
599
00:48:54.400 --> 00:49:01.300
mid-age atmosphere then after Catan was so successful.
600
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:04.849
So I want to talk now about your life in
601
00:49:04.869 --> 00:49:09.090
the retail world. So firstly, what's the biggest challenge to
602
00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:10.289
running a board game shop?
603
00:49:13.550 --> 00:49:20.570
Well, of course, the it's maybe maybe the internet maybe
604
00:49:20.590 --> 00:49:25.579
um the the hardcore gamer of course they are just
605
00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.380
looking to the price they know what they want they
606
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.519
don't want some some work from you as a as
607
00:49:31.539 --> 00:49:34.980
a shop owner or your opinion they know what they
608
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:38.079
want and they're just looking for the price okay but
609
00:49:38.139 --> 00:49:43.000
then of course um the most challenges to find the
610
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:47.519
right games. Of course, you have to get some money
611
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:51.420
so they couldn't be too expensive for you or too
612
00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:55.739
expensive for the players too. And then you have to
613
00:49:56.239 --> 00:50:03.690
get a good mixture. We are not living from selling
614
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:11.099
Mansions of Madness. It's an important game for the nerds
615
00:50:11.179 --> 00:50:16.260
and for the players and for your friends, maybe, and
616
00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:23.869
so on. But we are living... We are selling Dixit.
617
00:50:24.130 --> 00:50:28.250
We are selling Cabo. We are selling Skytron. We are
618
00:50:28.909 --> 00:50:35.260
selling Flip 7. We are looking not for the games
619
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:40.900
we are selling four times, five times or ten times
620
00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:45.440
per year. We are looking for the games we could
621
00:50:45.539 --> 00:50:48.280
sell 50 times a year and more.
622
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:51.500
And so what I'm struck by, you know, working in
623
00:50:51.539 --> 00:50:54.909
a board game shop now, what I'm struck by is.
624
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:02.579
How much stuff is in the warehouse? How often orders
625
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:08.019
come in? How stressful is it when you see a
626
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.409
game and you think, okay, how many of these should
627
00:51:12.510 --> 00:51:16.230
I order? Because you order a lot, and if the
628
00:51:16.250 --> 00:51:20.469
game doesn't take off, then you don't sell them. Is
629
00:51:20.510 --> 00:51:25.769
that stressful to try and work out how much product
630
00:51:25.809 --> 00:51:26.510
to order in?
631
00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:29.920
It was very stressful when the stage role was younger.
632
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:35.619
Because you're ordering some games from Cosmos, for example, and
633
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:41.090
one day after you got your order, a player comes
634
00:51:41.210 --> 00:51:44.409
in and asks you about a Cosmos game which you
635
00:51:44.849 --> 00:51:48.969
haven't ordered. So, of course, then, okay, you're doing all
636
00:51:49.449 --> 00:51:53.599
is possible, so you're doing another order, and then you
637
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:57.920
have more Cosmos games than you... you could put into
638
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:01.360
your shelter and so on. Of course, it was stressful,
639
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:06.829
but now it's not stressful. And I'm very good connected
640
00:52:06.949 --> 00:52:13.369
with the Aktion Hohspielwelt, with the Spieleallianz, with other traders.
641
00:52:13.829 --> 00:52:18.210
Now we are 47 shops and there are 47 names
642
00:52:18.230 --> 00:52:26.409
of shops. Some of them have two or three shops.
643
00:52:27.449 --> 00:52:30.889
Some of them have only one shop. So when I
644
00:52:31.289 --> 00:52:36.630
have too much from the game XY, I will just
645
00:52:36.829 --> 00:52:43.420
ask another, could somebody help me and buy some of
646
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:45.440
my games?
647
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:49.099
And so, you know, you've been running the shop now,
648
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:53.599
you said 30 years. How has retail changed since you
649
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:54.659
started the shop?
650
00:52:54.659 --> 00:53:02.719
30 years are a long period because of the internet
651
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:09.860
and of course the other events during these 30 years
652
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:14.389
well we opened a shop and it was just fun
653
00:53:14.610 --> 00:53:22.230
and we gave us every month 50 mark so it
654
00:53:22.269 --> 00:53:28.070
was 25 euros maybe it was 30 euros today per
655
00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:31.440
month so it was just a fun thing and a
656
00:53:31.460 --> 00:53:37.159
hobby but then the computer games were getting more and
657
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:42.280
more and everybody told us well the analog games are
658
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:46.539
now dead and it was not because every time you
659
00:53:46.579 --> 00:53:51.989
have one thing too much you will get onto the
660
00:53:52.050 --> 00:53:58.659
opposite side so everybody who played computer games then liked
661
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:02.940
the way to be on a gaming table and to
662
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:07.320
see the others, the opponents and to see the other
663
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:11.550
players and so on. And then the online shopping was
664
00:54:11.909 --> 00:54:14.789
getting better and more and more and more and everybody
665
00:54:14.829 --> 00:54:21.710
told us, oh, the stationary trading shops, they are now dying.
666
00:54:22.090 --> 00:54:27.230
And it was not because we like to meet people
667
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:31.949
in the CETR and we like to get our experience
668
00:54:32.150 --> 00:54:36.909
told about our experiences on the gaming table and we
669
00:54:36.969 --> 00:54:40.550
could not only say the things which you will find
670
00:54:40.889 --> 00:54:44.280
on the rear side of a gaming box we just
671
00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.000
tell about the last game with this the last experience
672
00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:53.199
with this game so well I'm very happy with it
673
00:54:53.900 --> 00:54:56.199
how it changed and changed not.
674
00:54:57.389 --> 00:54:59.420
And so the most important question I'm going to ask
675
00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:03.099
you in this entire interview is, are you unhappy that
676
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:04.800
I don't work in your shop?
677
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:10.300
Of course. I send every day or five times a
678
00:55:10.429 --> 00:55:18.269
week your boss, Peter, a message and ask him, come on,
679
00:55:18.750 --> 00:55:21.969
how much do I have to pay that Ben is
680
00:55:22.530 --> 00:55:23.989
moving to Constance?
681
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:28.460
You don't have to pay Peter anything, firstly. Secondly... I think.
682
00:55:28.579 --> 00:55:31.530
You're just a big player like a soccer player.
683
00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:35.130
Yeah, so it's like basically if you're trying to buy
684
00:55:35.230 --> 00:55:36.730
Cristiano Ronaldo or something.
685
00:55:37.369 --> 00:55:37.909
Or Messi.
686
00:55:38.690 --> 00:55:44.869
Or Messi. I consider myself the Messi of board game beraters.
687
00:55:45.110 --> 00:55:47.239
Let's say maybe just Undaff.
688
00:55:48.139 --> 00:55:51.940
No. So your next game then is not really a game.
689
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:54.059
It's a bit of a cheat, but you're allowed to
690
00:55:54.099 --> 00:55:56.420
cheat on this podcast. So this is a set of
691
00:55:56.559 --> 00:56:00.159
RPG dice. What games are you playing with these dice?
692
00:56:01.099 --> 00:56:12.969
RPG. Maybe in our room some own role-playing game ideas.
693
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:19.639
But I'm playing a lot of role-playing systems like, of course,
694
00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:24.869
Dungeons & Dragons, the modern Dungeons & Dragons. I am
695
00:56:24.929 --> 00:56:32.610
playing Daggerheart. I love Cthulhu and I like very much
696
00:56:32.670 --> 00:56:39.670
the world of Shadowrun. So with a set of role-play dice,
697
00:56:40.210 --> 00:56:43.889
we could play all of them. Of course, Sometimes in
698
00:56:43.929 --> 00:56:49.050
Shadowrun you need 12 or more D6. So we have
699
00:56:49.090 --> 00:56:51.530
to roll with one set a lot of times, but
700
00:56:52.070 --> 00:56:56.860
we have time in our doomsday room. So that would work.
701
00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:03.940
And so you have an RPG podcast. I think it's
702
00:57:03.980 --> 00:57:05.260
terrible that you're trying to rival me.
703
00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:09.079
It's not an RPG podcast. It's about trading. It's about
704
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:14.820
all the questions you ask me. I already gave some
705
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:20.409
advices in this podcast. It's called Alte Hasen Neue Regeln, Ben.
706
00:57:20.449 --> 00:57:20.929
That's right.
707
00:57:21.230 --> 00:57:23.670
You could say it. Say it.
708
00:57:24.050 --> 00:57:26.550
I'm not saying the name of your podcast on my podcast.
709
00:57:26.769 --> 00:57:31.329
You've already said it. You get the free advertising, not me. But,
710
00:57:31.449 --> 00:57:35.869
you know, I see the flyers at work every day. And,
711
00:57:36.210 --> 00:57:38.300
you know, it's you and your podcast.
712
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:39.559
You gave it to every player? Yeah.
713
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:44.420
Oh, religiously, Michael. Everyone who comes, I give them a
714
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:47.400
copy of the flyer and I say, don't listen to
715
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:50.539
this podcast. This is an example of what you shouldn't
716
00:57:50.579 --> 00:57:51.989
listen to.
717
00:57:52.340 --> 00:57:55.289
That's an opener. Yeah, okay.
718
00:57:55.369 --> 00:57:57.650
So tell us about this podcast.
719
00:57:58.849 --> 00:58:04.610
Well, this podcast is just a hobby, but I like it.
720
00:58:04.989 --> 00:58:11.579
You should like your hobbies, of course, because It's Stefan Will.
721
00:58:12.739 --> 00:58:17.400
So he's called Willy. Willy is one of the owners
722
00:58:17.460 --> 00:58:22.159
of Ultra Comics in Nuremberg and Erlangen. So he's a partner,
723
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:27.989
he's a colleague. He's also from the Tent Raiders, our small,
724
00:58:28.050 --> 00:58:35.230
small game company. And he's also part of the Spieleallianz company.
725
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:45.340
And his son, Leon, listened to our stories when we
726
00:58:45.380 --> 00:58:48.300
were talking about and really knows a lot of more
727
00:58:48.400 --> 00:58:58.110
stories than I know. Because he already made some Munchkin Theater,
728
00:58:58.190 --> 00:59:03.070
for example. And we both We're in the world of LARP,
729
00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:05.800
so live action role-playing games and so on. And he
730
00:59:05.820 --> 00:59:08.570
knows a lot of people and so on. And Leon
731
00:59:08.610 --> 00:59:12.579
listened to our story. And some days he said, hey,
732
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:17.690
come on, you should make a podcast. And Willi and me,
733
00:59:17.730 --> 00:59:22.860
we just said, yes, that would be funny. But that's it.
734
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:27.340
because of the technique and I don't know the world
735
00:59:27.380 --> 00:59:33.650
of the podcast very well. And so Leon made some
736
00:59:33.710 --> 00:59:39.309
plans and he's now our manager. He's our technician. He's
737
00:59:39.829 --> 00:59:43.389
all of what you need. And we are just talking
738
00:59:43.449 --> 00:59:46.650
about it. And we are talking about a topic which
739
00:59:46.690 --> 00:59:51.760
we don't know at the start of the podcast. We
740
00:59:51.820 --> 00:59:54.090
are not so organized like you.
741
00:59:54.869 --> 00:59:57.909
Well, you know, I mean, some people put the effort in, Michael.
742
00:59:58.510 --> 01:00:00.449
So I want to talk now about the future. So
743
01:00:00.469 --> 01:00:03.769
you've mentioned all of these games coming out at Essen.
744
01:00:04.090 --> 01:00:06.340
So tell us, what games have you got coming out
745
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:07.260
in the near future?
746
01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:13.320
Well, okay, we've talked about some of them. Well, the
747
01:00:13.340 --> 01:00:17.820
Circle of Life is now closing because of the Südsee
748
01:00:17.900 --> 01:00:22.449
South Sea Dolph Romantic will come out. So... Then the
749
01:00:22.570 --> 01:00:27.750
expansion from Boss Fighters QR. It's in the jungle, Jungle Fever.
750
01:00:29.510 --> 01:00:32.719
Then the big box from Coach Riot to Devil's Castle.
751
01:00:32.969 --> 01:00:43.800
Then a Dorf Romantic head-to-head small game for turnmans. Then
752
01:00:45.340 --> 01:00:48.719
Throne of Lies. You tell me if it's not the
753
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:52.659
right expression. Throne der Lügen will.
754
01:00:52.500 --> 01:00:54.820
Come out Throne of Lies yeah sounds good to me Throne.
755
01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:01.059
Of Lies at Ars Edition then Frech Verlag Top Verlag
756
01:01:01.139 --> 01:01:04.710
will come out Card Game in the world of the
757
01:01:04.750 --> 01:01:09.869
dwarves so of the novel series Dwarf from Marquess Heights
758
01:01:10.250 --> 01:01:16.860
at Königswall and of course at Ravensburger now today I
759
01:01:16.900 --> 01:01:22.610
could say it because it's on the catalogue Rollyverse. It's
760
01:01:22.630 --> 01:01:27.329
a game for families. It's a game with dice and cards.
761
01:01:28.050 --> 01:01:32.460
And it's a gaming series because six different editions will
762
01:01:32.500 --> 01:01:39.860
come out. Three of the six are just normal topics,
763
01:01:40.090 --> 01:01:45.489
not with a licensing. it's a dragon world and then
764
01:01:45.670 --> 01:01:51.690
the Rolly is a small gnome a dice gnome very
765
01:01:51.769 --> 01:02:02.349
very funny and foodimils so animals which are food and
766
01:02:02.389 --> 01:02:07.030
the three licenses we have is Star Wars and Lilo
767
01:02:07.090 --> 01:02:11.550
and Stitch and Minecraft and you could mix them up
768
01:02:12.050 --> 01:02:16.980
So if you like Minecraft, because I know you are
769
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:23.539
just a cube head, then I could play with my
770
01:02:23.619 --> 01:02:28.980
Lilo and Stitch cards with you and your Minecraft. And
771
01:02:29.019 --> 01:02:35.489
in every box is another artifact, which makes the game
772
01:02:35.570 --> 01:02:41.230
a little bit different. Another advantage inside for every player
773
01:02:41.510 --> 01:02:41.849
on the table.
774
01:02:43.539 --> 01:02:49.070
So then, what is the greatest joy of designing games?
775
01:02:51.309 --> 01:02:58.829
That I'm in my room and I'm not talking to you, Ben. No, no, okay. Unbelievable.
776
01:02:59.449 --> 01:03:00.659
Unbelievable news.
777
01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:05.139
No, no, no. The greatest joy, Ben, is when a
778
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:10.440
game is released and I'm coming for the first time
779
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:16.280
to a fair and I could see the people who
780
01:03:16.380 --> 01:03:19.659
are playing this game. And they don't know me, and
781
01:03:19.739 --> 01:03:21.820
I don't know them. And I see that they are
782
01:03:21.860 --> 01:03:25.260
laughing or that they are just thinking about the next
783
01:03:25.409 --> 01:03:28.730
move and next turn and so on. And that's what
784
01:03:28.809 --> 01:03:30.130
I like. That's what I like.
785
01:03:31.610 --> 01:03:33.690
So your last game then, we've already mentioned, and it's
786
01:03:33.730 --> 01:03:36.429
a big hit, and this is Flip 7. Why is
787
01:03:36.469 --> 01:03:37.789
this game so successful?
788
01:03:39.630 --> 01:03:43.480
Good question. I don't think it's so successful because it's
789
01:03:43.659 --> 01:03:46.239
on the box. It's the most successful of the best.
790
01:03:46.460 --> 01:03:48.239
The greatest card game of all time.
791
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:52.130
I think it's so successful because every, you could play
792
01:03:52.150 --> 01:03:55.889
it with every player. That's why it's on my list. Uh,
793
01:03:55.929 --> 01:04:00.429
when we are, maybe we are meeting some other guys
794
01:04:00.550 --> 01:04:05.739
during the doom doomsday. Um, maybe I will meet some
795
01:04:05.780 --> 01:04:09.320
new guys and, uh, I'm taking you with me. Um,
796
01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:14.349
And so we could play it with everybody. With younger
797
01:04:14.409 --> 01:04:18.809
or older, with people who are saying, yes, I play
798
01:04:18.849 --> 01:04:23.730
a lot. Also with some people who are saying, what?
799
01:04:23.769 --> 01:04:27.820
Playing is for children only? You could play it with everybody.
800
01:04:29.300 --> 01:04:32.960
That's why it's so successful and that's why I put
801
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:36.940
it on my list. I like it too. I like
802
01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:42.369
it too. And of course the a surprise when you
803
01:04:42.389 --> 01:04:47.050
are getting a special card, freeze or second chance and
804
01:04:47.070 --> 01:04:49.170
so on. It's a lot of fun.
805
01:04:50.230 --> 01:04:52.230
And so do you think, and you've kind of alluded
806
01:04:52.269 --> 01:04:54.909
to this, do you think this is because, you know,
807
01:04:55.719 --> 01:04:59.159
We both work in retail, and now when we're recording this,
808
01:04:59.179 --> 01:05:02.199
it's September, we're coming up to the Christmas period, and
809
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:05.039
you get a lot of people saying, I want just
810
01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:09.039
something to play with my family at Christmas that's not difficult,
811
01:05:09.300 --> 01:05:12.219
that the grandma and the kids can play together. Do
812
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.659
you think this is the perfect family Christmas game?
813
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:18.480
It is. It is. Of course, we are traders. Maybe
814
01:05:18.500 --> 01:05:24.510
you could pick also some alternatives under the table, but...
815
01:05:25.099 --> 01:05:30.460
It's a perfect fit for Christmas time, for Sylvester, for
816
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:34.489
the new year when the people are coming together and
817
01:05:34.510 --> 01:05:37.710
the family is not only four or five persons, they're
818
01:05:37.710 --> 01:05:41.369
12 and so on. Flip 7 is for three to
819
01:05:41.369 --> 01:05:44.150
18 players. It's perfect.
820
01:05:45.449 --> 01:05:47.920
So my last question then. So you're heading out of
821
01:05:47.980 --> 01:05:50.980
Constance towards the cabin and you go around a corner
822
01:05:51.019 --> 01:05:53.639
and the back door of the car flies open. Four
823
01:05:53.679 --> 01:05:57.739
of the games... fly out into the lake and sink
824
01:05:57.820 --> 01:06:01.539
to the bottom. Which game do you hope is sitting
825
01:06:01.579 --> 01:06:02.659
on the backseat of the car?
826
01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:08.980
Nice question, my dear. Nice questions. I think I have
827
01:06:09.239 --> 01:06:14.179
in my pocket here, I have the RPG dice.
828
01:06:15.500 --> 01:06:18.780
So if people want to know what games you've got
829
01:06:18.820 --> 01:06:21.880
coming out, if people want to visit the Seat Hall
830
01:06:21.940 --> 01:06:24.579
and buy some stuff, how can they go about doing that?
831
01:06:25.570 --> 01:06:26.010
How can they?
832
01:06:26.469 --> 01:06:27.210
How can they do that?
833
01:06:28.809 --> 01:06:30.429
To meet me or what?
834
01:06:30.809 --> 01:06:33.110
How can they find out what's going on at the Saitrol?
835
01:06:33.190 --> 01:06:36.099
How can they find out what's going on with Michael
836
01:06:36.139 --> 01:06:37.320
Palm and Lukasz Czach?
837
01:06:38.260 --> 01:06:42.980
Well, normally, of course, we have homepages and so on,
838
01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:46.849
but the best way is to visit us, of course,
839
01:06:46.909 --> 01:06:50.570
and ask about us. We have a gaming club in Konstanz.
840
01:06:50.630 --> 01:06:55.050
It's very, very, very active. Every week we have and
841
01:06:55.199 --> 01:07:04.519
other locations, gaming evenings and so, and, and gaming specials. Um, uh, yeah.
842
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:07.340
And of course, when you meet me at the fair
843
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:11.019
or the convention, just pass by and say hello and,
844
01:07:11.300 --> 01:07:15.760
and say what kind of games you like or what you,
845
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:19.719
what you want new, you want new games in the,
846
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:22.530
in the world of Dorf Romantic, for example, or I
847
01:07:22.570 --> 01:07:25.780
got some letters from a, I think he was 12
848
01:07:25.780 --> 01:07:30.780
with two special tiles for Dorf Romantic. I like it
849
01:07:30.820 --> 01:07:36.570
very much. And just write me. Write me an email. Yeah. Excellent.
850
01:07:36.610 --> 01:07:38.849
Well, Michael Palm, thank you very much.
851
01:07:39.510 --> 01:07:45.170
Ben, I like your kind of podcast and I like you.
852
01:07:45.190 --> 01:07:49.139
You know it. And thank you very much for this time.
853
01:07:49.260 --> 01:07:52.940
And hopefully it was, well, interesting for the others.
854
01:07:54.090 --> 01:07:55.570
You can support the show in many ways. You can
855
01:07:55.590 --> 01:07:57.429
tell your friends, you can talk about it on social media,
856
01:07:57.670 --> 01:07:59.309
you can talk about it in your own blog, podcast
857
01:07:59.349 --> 01:08:01.150
or video, and you can support it directly by going
858
01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:04.510
to patreon.com forward slash 5G4D for a rolling donation, or
859
01:08:04.530 --> 01:08:06.480
for a one-off donation, hitting the PayPal link at the
860
01:08:06.500 --> 01:08:10.500
bottom of the website, 5games4doomsday. com. It's these donations that keep
861
01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:12.500
the show going. You can join the best Discord in
862
01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:16.340
gaming by going to 5g4d. com and clicking the button. Also,
863
01:08:16.380 --> 01:08:17.680
if you want to say something nice about the show,
864
01:08:17.699 --> 01:08:19.119
or if you want to say something horrible about the show,
865
01:08:19.300 --> 01:08:22.520
you can contact me on Twitter at 5games4doomsday, or send
866
01:08:22.539 --> 01:08:26.069
me an email at 5games4doomsday at gmail.com. And if I
867
01:08:26.109 --> 01:08:30.590
can survive the skittering merkle birds and the ever-creeping annoyance,
868
01:08:31.229 --> 01:08:34.489
I'll see you in two weeks for another 5 Games
869
01:08:34.909 --> 01:08:35.489
for Doomsday.