Jeroen Doumen

WEBVTT
1
00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.919
Out of the street corners. They scream. You knew it
2
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.039
was coming. You've been waiting for this for months, rumor
3
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.279
hardened into fear, and now they scream at you, the sirens,
4
00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.920
their hysterical wail, tearing through the white noise of the city,
5
00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:21.039
and you run. You run to pick up those things
6
00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.920
that can never be replaced, a picture of them in
7
00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.920
the days when they still loved you, your mother's wedding ring.
8
00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.640
And then you turn to your shelf of games. You
9
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:38.159
only have room for five. Five Games for Doomsday. Five
10
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.320
Games for Doomsday is a show in which board game
11
00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:42.840
personalities are thrust into a cabin in the woods to
12
00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.719
outrun an oncoming disaster, but can only take five of
13
00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.039
their games with them. But which will they choose. My
14
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.719
guest this week is one half of the most original
15
00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.119
publisher in hobby gaming in real life. He's a graduate
16
00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.039
in cryptography and a business owner working in deep tech
17
00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.880
in games. He designs and publishes under Splotter, Spell and
18
00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:08.519
the hugely original Dutch publisher responsible for Antiquity Indonesia, food Chain, Magnetum,
19
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.799
and many others. My guest this week is your own Dowman,
20
00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:14.560
your own Welcome to the cabin.
21
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:16.079
Thanks for having me.
22
00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:18.680
So my first question is is how difficult was it
23
00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:20.680
for you to pick the five games take to the cabin.
24
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.799
Well, there's two answers to that question. On the one hand,
25
00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.400
it's very difficult to narrow something down to five games
26
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:37.239
and just just pick only five. On the other hand,
27
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.040
gaming for me is always more about people I gained
28
00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.920
this and having a fun experience together than the actual
29
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.359
game that's on the table, if you understand what I mean.
30
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.640
Sure, So let's go back to the beginning. Then, so
31
00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:54.680
you studied cryptography. How does a person get into cryptography?
32
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:03.599
Well, that's that's an excellent question. It's essentially by not
33
00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:08.840
being able to choose in a way, because cryptography is
34
00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:13.599
essentially a branch of mathematics that takes whatever font puzzles
35
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:16.719
can be had from left and right anywhere in mathematics
36
00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:21.759
to create a difficult puzzle out of that and build
37
00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:23.360
a cryptosystem.
38
00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.439
And so what do you do in a cryptography degree.
39
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:35.439
Well built, build secure systems, may make sure stuff can
40
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:40.000
remain secret or authentic or what have you not.
41
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.400
And so then that resulted in you working in deep tech,
42
00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:50.439
and I tried to work out what deep tech actually meant.
43
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:52.680
But the problem is your own is I'm not very clever,
44
00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.159
and certainly anything to do with mathematics is an absolute disaster.
45
00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:58.159
So what is deep tech?
46
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.080
Dep tech doesn't really have much to do with mathematics
47
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:09.000
or with the technology itself. I think it's it's more
48
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:15.080
to do with with an investor's horizon, because deep tech
49
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.280
is something that will take a long time to pay
50
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.479
off any investment. I think that's a good definition to
51
00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:23.879
look to.
52
00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.159
But what kind of things does deep tech do? What
53
00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:29.960
kind of products does it produce?
54
00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.879
There's typically a lot of semiconductors, so computer chips, things
55
00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.039
like that. They often take years to design. Then you
56
00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.560
have to convince people that yours are better than those
57
00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.960
of somebody else, and before you know it, you're five
58
00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:52.960
to ten years down the road. Well, typical investor will
59
00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.159
want a return on his money in I don't know,
60
00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:01.639
three years or so. And of course I'm fantasizing slightly
61
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.879
here because this is not my world. I like I
62
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.120
like to keep in the technology part of the business
63
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.960
and be clever and not have too much to do
64
00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.159
with the money side of things unless I have to.
65
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.680
And you formed your own company, what does it do yees.
66
00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.480
So I did that with a bunch of co founders
67
00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.720
and essentially what we do, and I think the easiest
68
00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.680
way to explain it is we create electronic bar code.
69
00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.639
So any piece of electronics you can stick a unique barcode,
70
00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:39.720
the thing gets its own unique identity and it can
71
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:44.839
prove its own identity. And that that way you can
72
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.600
keep track of the life cycle of your your electronics
73
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:57.279
or the electronic components throughout throughout this whole life, even
74
00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.560
after you refurbish it, and you still you still know
75
00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.319
it's life history in a way year or you have
76
00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:07.160
a way of tracking that.
77
00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.800
Excellent. So your first game then is unsurprising to me
78
00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.079
as an eighteen xx and this is eighteen thirty three.
79
00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.319
So what is your background with eighteen xx and why
80
00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:21.959
do the games appeal to you?
81
00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:29.800
Yeah, They've always appealed to me a lot. And what
82
00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:34.199
I really wanted to pick an eighteen xx game for
83
00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.560
one of my five games. And I think one of
84
00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:44.759
the ways it tackles me is that the entanglement it
85
00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:49.319
creates between players because it's the type of game that
86
00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.560
plays in two levels. As a player, or you're an
87
00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.160
investor in companies, you have no clue yet what those
88
00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.800
companies will do and whoever invested most in a company
89
00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.439
to run it in the operation round and make all
90
00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:07.120
these decisions. So that game on two levels is fascinating
91
00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:07.399
to me.
92
00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.040
And then what's special about eighteen thirty three n E.
93
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.040
Well, in a way, it's a little bit of a
94
00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.399
gamble because I've played prototype a handful of times. The
95
00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:27.480
game has not been released yet, should hopefully finally be
96
00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:33.480
out end of this year, and I really like what
97
00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:35.879
it does. It's kind of the bigger broader to eighteen
98
00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:40.920
forty six, which is a game that was distilled down
99
00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:45.759
from the roots of eighteen thirty three and E. And
100
00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.720
so I like what it does, and I hope there's
101
00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:54.040
it has enough legs for me to spend a lot
102
00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:55.120
of time in the cabin.
103
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.720
And so, you know, you look at eighteen xx publishers.
104
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:05.240
I interviewed Lonnie Augla recently, and the eighteen xx community
105
00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.040
is its own kind of cult within board gaming. Do
106
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.920
you do you kind of feel an affinity with what
107
00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.000
you do and what eighteen xx publishers.
108
00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:22.560
Do partially partially, uh, but but maybe for the eighteen
109
00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:29.519
xx mostly designers, I would say they're designed and more
110
00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.319
constrained in that you still want to keep to the
111
00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:37.439
eighteen xx guardrails in the way it's almost always about
112
00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.040
railway companies and owning shares and debt. There's there's a
113
00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.839
few exceptions to that, including our own.
114
00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:49.560
One of yours, yeah, which I'll which I'll never play again,
115
00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.120
your own because the first time I played it, I won,
116
00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.600
and so I can never play it again because I've
117
00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:55.800
got one hundred percent record.
118
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.279
Well, but I hope you liked it at least did
119
00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:04.000
I love it? Yeah, there's there's a really fun story
120
00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.600
about that part because when we released eighteen thirty BC,
121
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:14.199
there was one of the Norwegian stores kept kept buying
122
00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.480
copies from us, and at some point we asked, how
123
00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:19.720
do you sell this many copies of an eighteen x
124
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.199
X game? Because they were the only shop that was
125
00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.759
selling so much and and and they were saying, oh,
126
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.399
your game is fantastic. It's it's it's relatively short, and
127
00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.080
and it teaches more dirty twigs and eighteen thirty has
128
00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.799
it's the perfect preparation for someone to learn how to
129
00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.840
play eighteen thirty or any of the others. That was
130
00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:40.559
really good to hear.
131
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.039
So I want to move on there and talk to you,
132
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.080
talk about you as a gamer rather than a designer.
133
00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.559
So how did you discover board games?
134
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.919
Well, I I've I've played them from from childhood onwards essentially.
135
00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:01.720
So when I was in high school, I played actually
136
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.000
Allies with with my friends with friends, that was the
137
00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:13.080
brand new game at the time. I then also discovered
138
00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.759
this this little weird male order shop. There was an
139
00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.519
efvert in a newspaper or magazine somewhere which was nine
140
00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:25.360
and nine games, and and one of the games the
141
00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.879
advertise for Civilization. I was like, well, this sounds fun.
142
00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:33.679
I'll take a chance and I'll order a copy. It arrived.
143
00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.799
I never at that point really played it that much
144
00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.399
because I didn't have the group for it, and the
145
00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.440
group wasn't big enough. But it was a wonderful game
146
00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:48.200
to own and and play. When I went to university
147
00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.759
I met more people to play with and to play
148
00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:54.360
lots of other games with as well.
149
00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.159
And so what kinds of player are you? Are you
150
00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.120
a quiet, thoughtful game or are you someone who Are
151
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.200
you someone who plans a million turns ahead? Or are
152
00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.600
you more sort of shooting from the hip, shouting at
153
00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.559
people across the table? I mean like me.
154
00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:16.240
I'm I'm much more quiet's soulful player. I'll probably plan
155
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:23.039
a million terms ahead, including for you. I also remember
156
00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:27.679
about what was visit game club here in Ainthoven. We
157
00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.720
were playing Game of Titan and and and people. Uh.
158
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.559
For people who don't know the game, it's it's a
159
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.919
fantasy combat game. You have hit, you have hidden armies.
160
00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:41.279
You show a little bit of information if you get
161
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:47.120
a new fantasy creature into your army, uh, and and
162
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.600
and how you got it there, and then for the
163
00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.399
rest of it is hidden you you move your armies around,
164
00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:00.320
so you don't quite know what's what a miss the
165
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:04.200
other people have. But at some point everyone was just
166
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:08.080
asking me what's in this army of mine? And I
167
00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:13.360
was correct ninety percent of the time or so, and so.
168
00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.840
When did you think, oh, I like these things, maybe
169
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.519
I'd like to make them too.
170
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.200
So that's that was really at the start of university
171
00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:27.200
and near the near the start of splot of as well,
172
00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.320
even though I didn't join as a partner all the
173
00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.759
way at the start, because we we were playing lots
174
00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:37.720
of lots of different different games, there were far fewer
175
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.159
different games than than there are now. And I think, actually,
176
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.000
well I had met your yours as well, and and
177
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:47.919
other people we.
178
00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:49.960
So did you meet him at university?
179
00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:56.240
Yes, So we founded a gaming society together to play
180
00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.559
board games with with a lot of people. And at
181
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.799
some point we also had like, well there's too few games,
182
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.120
let's create, let's create some of our own. So we
183
00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:11.639
had evenings or or days where we would design a
184
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.399
little game of our own. And one one of the
185
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.600
other things is I also played a lot of computer games.
186
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.559
I still play quite a few. One of the games
187
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:28.639
that I enjoyed was low so that Settlers. You you
188
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.240
may have heard of it, And if if you did
189
00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:36.080
some arcade things to your computer hooked up to miles,
190
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.799
et cetera, you could play the split screen with two players.
191
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.039
And I played it a few times videos and then
192
00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:48.919
we both enjoyed that and we were like, but can
193
00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.080
can we also do this in board game for him?
194
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.639
So that's how Roads and Boats was born. And that's
195
00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.720
that's actually the first game that that we started working on,
196
00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.440
even if it's not the first published game from Slaughter.
197
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.120
So your next game then is Age of Craft. Why
198
00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:07.519
are you taking this one to the cabin?
199
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.759
I But one of the reasons I wanted to have
200
00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.559
a diverse set of games. Each age of Craft is
201
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.120
wonderful for me because it's a it's it's a dice
202
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:31.559
drafting game, and it's relatively quick and you're building new building,
203
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.399
new buildings, uh with with the dice that you collect,
204
00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.480
some building if you'll produce dice, et cetera. So in
205
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:44.240
a in a way, it's what resource building game or
206
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.759
what's what's the current name for the sayings a cube,
207
00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:55.519
cube turner, cute pusher, Yeah, and but it's it's it's
208
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:59.240
a wonderful little quirky little thing. And well I also
209
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:04.159
I also very much nowadays and enjoy Japanese games because
210
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:09.399
they often well they're often relatively small, not not and
211
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.559
not too big, but they can contain it one wonderful
212
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:19.679
little ideas. They're still down to the core because not
213
00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:21.840
more fits in the box, and so.
214
00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.759
More and more over the last decade, Asian games have
215
00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:32.559
been becoming a thing, I think culminating really with Bombusters
216
00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:36.519
winning Spielder Sharas last year. But is there anything unique
217
00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.960
about the games coming out of Asia, do you think?
218
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.480
But in it in in a way it's it's a
219
00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:48.960
different scene. There's not as many big publishers. I think
220
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.759
though the big Western publishers are now also scouting a
221
00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:58.000
lot for for Japanese designs. So there's much more culture
222
00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.919
of the miners producing five to fifty copies of their
223
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.919
own game, and they are very happy with every with
224
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.360
every sale and everyone who plays their game, and if
225
00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.600
it doesn't sell, then they're making you. They're make a
226
00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:15.000
new one.
227
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.799
So I want to talk now about more about you
228
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.360
and your your your start in design. So the first
229
00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.320
game you published, which I which I played the other day, interestingly,
230
00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.799
was Web and I was playing it with someone and
231
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:35.200
they were saying, I see the origins of Splotter in
232
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.600
this game. What what does Web share with the games
233
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.159
you subsequently designed.
234
00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.960
Uh, that's that's that's a hard question. I would say
235
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.399
one of the things that shares is is roudbuilding, because
236
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.480
a lot, if not almost all of our games involves
237
00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:02.000
some form of network or routbuilding, and that that is
238
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.840
the core of Web. You're you're building a route from
239
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:09.320
the start or from a start to point two point
240
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:15.399
scoring locations, and a little bit in there is also
241
00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:21.159
distilling down what you actually do in a turn, because
242
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.360
in Web, you get if you get a few action
243
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.240
points depending on the towel you play, and you and
244
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.879
you can spend those on a on a few different options.
245
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.480
We actually played it, uh two months back or so
246
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:40.919
again and we and we were also both seeing yours
247
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.960
was in the same game. We were both thinking along
248
00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.840
similar lines, it's like this, this really still is a
249
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.200
blotter game. And we were also both like, if we
250
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.759
would design this now and nowadays, we would do so
251
00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:54.399
much different.
252
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.960
And so then when did you decide to form the
253
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.759
company and why did you end up calling it splotter spelling?
254
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:11.680
Forming the company was what was Tomara Harmon and yours
255
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:18.359
started it basically because we we we had a bunch
256
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.559
of games that we that we we all enjoyed ourselves,
257
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.759
and we had shopped them around to a few bigger
258
00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:32.839
publishers and they they all very politely but very firmly
259
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.079
said no, we don't, we don't want to publish this.
260
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.880
And then at some point we or I should say,
261
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.920
Tomara Hammond and simply decided, hey, we know a few
262
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:48.720
other Dutch designers Kraley and side On, why don't we
263
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.279
just rent the boots in Essen and make a few
264
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.519
handcrafted games and sell them there. So that's really what
265
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:02.160
what the start of Splotter was. So Web was one
266
00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.559
of the first games that was was in the mix
267
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.279
for the first year. I didn't join as a partner
268
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:15.519
until a few years later. And the name came from
269
00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.720
Tomorrow and actually from the logo because Tomara had drawn
270
00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:24.079
the logo first. And it's a shortening of spell and
271
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.200
otter because the logo is a little otter, so it's
272
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.079
really game otter.
273
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.359
So so the Dutch word for otter is otter. Yes, yes,
274
00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.279
I know a Dutch word. Now, I'm sure you know
275
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.440
more than one. You know web well? Also also I
276
00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.559
know web. Yeah, so I'm getting on to that. So
277
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.880
your first big game then was Boss. How did Buss
278
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.039
come about?
279
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.559
I would argue that Roads and Boats was really the
280
00:18:54.599 --> 00:19:01.599
first big game, both because we started designing that earlier
281
00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:05.839
and I think it released a year before Bus. Okay actually,
282
00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.799
but but Bus really really came out of one of
283
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:19.559
the design sessions where we were fooling around and trying
284
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.920
and trying trying to make a game about moving about
285
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:29.119
delivering passengers to where they want to go, and it
286
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.440
grew from there. End my memory on it is very
287
00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:32.359
hazy at the moment.
288
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.680
It's been a while, And so Buss is a game
289
00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.480
I first played when the Capstone version came out, and
290
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:43.880
I recently had a gaming weekend and Bus was the
291
00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:46.240
first game that was played at the weekend. So it's
292
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.200
a game that came out in nineteen ninety nine and
293
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.720
people are still buying it, people are still playing it.
294
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:52.279
Does that surprise you.
295
00:19:54.519 --> 00:20:00.960
In a way? Yes, that it's it's fair to be honest,
296
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:07.119
and an old design, but it's the design still still
297
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.960
holds up quite well, and I think I think it's
298
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.400
still a good game. I still chuckle a little bit
299
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.279
because you can. It's it's a game you can play
300
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.160
in two very different ways. And when we designed it,
301
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.920
we mainly played it in the as mean as possible game.
302
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:31.000
So that's why why we put duration of two to
303
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.440
three hours on the box. And and we had a
304
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.160
little joke in that we put the score track up
305
00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.160
to I forget thirty points or so. Well, high score
306
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.720
we had seen was more around seven points, but hey,
307
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:50.160
we we had this wonderful game board all this. All
308
00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.640
the score islands were named after island games, and we
309
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.079
came up with thirty or so of them. But but
310
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.519
then we also got comments like why do you put
311
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.559
two to three hours on the game. We finished this
312
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.720
in thirty to forty five minutes, and the score treg
313
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:12.519
is too short. If you play it extremely friendly, don't
314
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.519
block anyone, Yeah, then you score a lot of points.
315
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.119
I have never played a game of Bus where the
316
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.799
winner has scored more than eight points.
317
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.400
I think it's shame. But that's not the only way
318
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:24.079
to play the game.
319
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.720
Well, I mean, I mean, I know, in this modern
320
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.680
world your own that we should be we should be
321
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.319
nice and open to other people's points of view. But frankly,
322
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.920
that is playing bus role.
323
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.160
I agree. It's also not the way I play Bus.
324
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.559
But so your next game then is something I never
325
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:47.680
knew existed until you sent me the list, and this
326
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.839
is Babylon five Walls. But before we get to the game,
327
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.559
this is one of those TV shows that I've never
328
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.839
seen that everyone always says to me, Oh, you have
329
00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:01.039
to see Babylon five. Of those nice anti sci fi shows,
330
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.759
it's by far the best. Why is the TV show
331
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:04.680
so good?
332
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.920
I will join the chorus and say, it's it's really
333
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.640
a wonderful sci fi show. You you you should, you
334
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.480
should really watch it. And I think, apart from the
335
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.799
c g I effects. It's it still holds up extremely
336
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:25.119
well even even now. And for me, it's the TV
337
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.880
show is so good because it's essentially it's a it's
338
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:32.759
a Greek tragedy. It's it's one big story. It's it's
339
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:40.119
it's not episodical. It's almost actually entirely from the first episode,
340
00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.160
it's already leading into the end of the show. And
341
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.200
that that shows and the writing is phenomenal, phenomenal for me.
342
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.880
And so how well does the game evoke the show?
343
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.279
It's it evokes the show pretty nicely because the game,
344
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.519
because the game has a gazillion different spaceships that that
345
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:11.000
you can use to fight with, and most of at
346
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.160
least the earlier ones appear on the show, and then
347
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.119
later you get to ships that are only mentioned on
348
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.359
the show, and then all the way to fantasy ships
349
00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:24.559
that somebody made up at some point. But it's if
350
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.119
if you look at there are let's say, four main
351
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:34.759
alien races, including humans, and two more powerful races, and
352
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.920
those are have very different philosophies, both in the writing
353
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.920
on the show how they're acted, and that that comes
354
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.240
true in in the spaceships as well. So that's real
355
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.000
that's really fun to see, and it's it's also a
356
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:54.799
game that I played a lot with my girlfriend, so
357
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:59.839
it's it has emotional connections for me. They are two
358
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.279
and it's it's it's a fun dice chugger. You wore
359
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.440
a ton of dice to see if if you should
360
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.640
if you hit each other, yes or no. It's it's
361
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.160
essentially more or less starfreet Battles Clone. That's a little
362
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.240
a little bit easier rules wise, but it's great fun.
363
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.720
So now I want to talk more about Splotter. So
364
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:28.720
the the thing about Splotter is they they're a cult
365
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.279
publisher and they that the people who are devoted to
366
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.440
Splotter are crazy devoted to Splotter. When did you start
367
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.880
to realize that you were developing a following?
368
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.599
Probably after after Indonesia or so, so that that was
369
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:54.359
really the dessert big game, and there was that was
370
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.799
also around what a few years after Board Game Gig
371
00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:01.920
really started, and of course Red Games Board was was
372
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:08.720
already quite entigesticals also about our games. But I don't
373
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:15.319
know when when it was really a following or when
374
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.799
that when it became a following, I don't know.
375
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:24.640
And so then if you had to boil it down.
376
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.839
I've had this conversation a lot with people in my
377
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.279
game group. What would you say is the character of
378
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:33.279
a Splotter game?
379
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.960
I would say the character? And at least that's how
380
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.319
we try to design new games, is that there's at
381
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.799
least one new and unique mechanism in there. And it's
382
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.119
also a game that's boiled down to it, to its essence,
383
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.799
there's no superfluous parts.
384
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.920
And so then so then when you when you're designing
385
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.640
a game, how the duties split between you and yours?
386
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.319
Do you have regular things that you excel at? Or
387
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.039
is that all mixed up?
388
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:16.960
It's it's it's it's very it's very mixed up. I'm
389
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:21.400
sometimes a bit more analytical, and I I play more
390
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:26.359
different board games from other publishers. Yours almost or only
391
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.119
plays our prototypes nowadays. So sometimes Yours comes up with
392
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.759
a great vis a, great idea, like what what what
393
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:39.319
if you use this type of mechanism, And then I'm like, oh, yes, yes, yes,
394
00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.200
that's a great mechanism that's exactly in this game already.
395
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:44.920
So then we have to steer steer away from that
396
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:52.200
a little bit. And yours is great in let's say
397
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.480
a bit a bit more of the abstract few and
398
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:00.680
and making sure that there is meaningful player interaction and
399
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:07.000
player entanglement for to call it like that. And I'm
400
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:11.000
often more analytical, and I'm like, if if you do
401
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.559
the rules like this, if this and this happens, the
402
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.680
game breaks. I'm quite good at break at breaking game prototypes,
403
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:21.359
if I say so myself.
404
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.279
And so the one thing about splotter, because the advantage
405
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:29.160
you have of it not being your profession is that
406
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:35.240
you're under no pressure to release games. So your release
407
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:39.839
schedule is fairly irregular. What prompts you to start a game?
408
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:41.920
Or are you always in the process of.
409
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.359
Designing We're actually, we're we're always in the process of
410
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:53.799
designing a new game. And uh, before this interview, actually
411
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:57.799
I actually looked looked up and release schedule is is
412
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:02.039
even it's relatively regular, or that we we slow down
413
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.920
a lot because both you and myself have gotten busy
414
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:09.079
or with our professional lives, and we no longer live
415
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.599
in the same city so it's harder to see each other.
416
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:15.440
But we but we've released a new game about every
417
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:21.240
three years over the past decade or so. And sometimes
418
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.759
we also had projects that we've worked on for a
419
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:29.519
year or two years, and then and then we said, hey,
420
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.559
we've developed this game or this game idea as as
421
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:36.400
far as it's as it goes, we've distilled down the
422
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.799
essence and there's no fun anymore. This is this is
423
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.279
not a fun game. And then we discarded that and
424
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:47.000
started with a new idea, and parts of it have
425
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:49.839
appeared in other games, so that that often happens. But
426
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:55.039
so for us, the design process often is we start
427
00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:00.000
with this a big thing, this, this is a big idea,
428
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.799
and we chop chop away at it and could sometimes
429
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:08.519
we cut away half of the game and that's extremely painful,
430
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:11.960
sometimes more for me than for yours, and sometimes the
431
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.640
other way around. But then we always say, hey, let's
432
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.039
chop off this half of the game, play it once
433
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.519
and see what remains. And sometimes it's it's a bad idea,
434
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.920
and often it's like, hey, if we do that, the
435
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.960
game improves a lot. For let me let it. Let
436
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:35.279
me give give an example for the for the Great
437
00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:41.720
Zimbabwe that originally was was about colonizing an alien planet
438
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:46.319
and there and there were three types of aliens that
439
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.279
that would grow on the planet. You would have to
440
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.720
defend yourself and your buildings against them. There were laser
441
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.000
towers and all the stuff that you could build, and
442
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.160
it was it was great fun. But it all so
443
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.839
I added well more than double the game at the
444
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:07.119
gameplay time because each turn those aliens had to grow.
445
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.640
They each had their own rules for growing. And if
446
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:12.000
I was in the game, it was no problem because
447
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.640
I could do it relatively quickly. But we couldn't beg it.
448
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.880
You run into every game box. So then we cut
449
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.519
that out and we were like, hey, the building buildings
450
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:27.559
center primary and secondary producer change, building up your building
451
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:31.480
up monuments is really the essence of this game, and
452
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:36.920
we should keep that and just remove the combat combating
453
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:43.119
aliens parts. And then we also transplanted it into Africa.
454
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:47.160
And so when I think of Splotter games, so I
455
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.720
played a game of Antiquity once and I forgot to
456
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:54.319
build wood in the first turn, and so I was
457
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:56.640
never out of the game, but I could never do anything,
458
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.960
And so I had sort of three hours of being
459
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.640
kicked in the nuts. Space claim and and and your
460
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.640
your games can be punishing and in the in the
461
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.160
in the bio you sent to me, I can't remember
462
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.200
exactly how they phrased it, but it was something like
463
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:17.640
games that reward planning and punish complacency, something like this
464
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.519
is the punishing nature of your game's coincidence or is
465
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.359
that deliberate?
466
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:31.480
It's it's not completely deliberate, but I think there's also
467
00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:36.680
a famous quote of your this saying that if if
468
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.559
the first turn of the game doesn't doesn't matter, but
469
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.640
why have that first turn? And why not when you
470
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.960
start the second turn? And it's really a consequence of
471
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:51.559
that design philosophy because if there is nothing meaningful to
472
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.240
do in the first turn, we often just could could
473
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.160
await it first turn and have you started a little
474
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:01.400
bit later where you can very very actually matter. But
475
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:04.680
that also means that you can make a bad mistake
476
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.839
and put yourself out of the game. So the quote
477
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:16.160
is often misinterpreted because it's definitely true that you can
478
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:18.559
be out of a Splotter game in the first turn
479
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:21.920
for a lot of our games, but it then always
480
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.119
is your own fault. It's always a mistake that you
481
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:29.720
made yourself. It's you. You cannot kick out another player typically,
482
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:34.279
so that that's something we at least try very hard
483
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.119
to guard against, and so do you.
484
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:40.559
Have a game of yours that you think is kind
485
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:44.319
of your your archetypal design that sort of sums up
486
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:47.920
your and yours' design sensibility the most.
487
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:56.960
That's that's that's a very difficult question, and probably my
488
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.799
answer to that is the current game that we're working on.
489
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:03.559
So now I will say, Bailiff of Boscope is that
490
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:07.680
game if you ask me in a few years time,
491
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:09.359
it will be the game that we're working on. Then.
492
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.119
So your next game then is you one you've already mentioned,
493
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.160
and it's a biggie and this is Civilization. So you're
494
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.240
an eighteen xx fan and this is a game that
495
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:23.880
you bought when you were young and you played. How
496
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:26.759
important do you think is Francis Tresham to the world
497
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:27.599
of board games?
498
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:33.920
Oh? I think he's quite He's quite important because he
499
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:43.000
designed Civilization, which which is a great game. He designed,
500
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.720
designed eighteen twenty nine and started the whole eighteen xx
501
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:53.319
scene and then partially walked away from it after eighteen
502
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:57.559
thirty was developed. But he and he never managed to
503
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.160
get horse racing into eighteen thirty year, which was his
504
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.720
original wish. Or so I hear so in in in
505
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:10.719
that in that sense, for more, more more complicated and
506
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:15.039
more and more involved games. I think he made two
507
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:20.599
of the of the real big titles there, so definitely
508
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:25.519
quite important. And there's there's other things that he that
509
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:30.679
he did as well that's quite admirable, but a little
510
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:36.039
less to my own liking, like Revolution and the Judge
511
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:39.119
and Circuit that that came out after he passed.
512
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:45.320
So how good is the story that Civilization tells.
513
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.880
For me? For for for me? For me, it's it's
514
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:56.599
it's quite good. And I have a weakness for for
515
00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:00.920
the original Civilization, though I immediately admit that on Civilization
516
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:06.000
is better as a game because otherwise when that never
517
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:10.840
played Egypt and always pray, always play Creed because it's
518
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:15.800
much much easier to get get certain disasters because they
519
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.719
don't affect you. But there's really these big events, specific
520
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:26.000
disasters that will will always happen. They will happen to
521
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:31.280
somebody and that really shape the story and the story
522
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.480
of the game and how that specific game develops.
523
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.719
And Antiquity feels like a sief game to me. Was
524
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:41.199
it inspired by Civilization at all?
525
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:50.960
Not so much, I think, because to me, Civilization is
526
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.440
is really a trading game. It's it's it's all about
527
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:58.079
the trading and getting the resources, and the game board
528
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.800
is secondary, is secondary to that. So so in that sense,
529
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:10.639
and and Antiquity isn't inspired by by that. And Antiquity
530
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:20.639
was really also inspired by by and that. That's why
531
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.440
it's even though it's set in the Middle Ages. That's
532
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:29.199
why it's vice called antiguity, uh, but by finiteness of
533
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:33.599
resources in the cities around you, because people whould build
534
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:35.920
up their cities and they were like, hey, we need
535
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.679
to build new houses or new buildings, we need more woods.
536
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.960
So hey, we go to the forest, we get more wood,
537
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.360
and then all of a sudden the wood is gone
538
00:36:44.679 --> 00:36:48.400
and it's harder to build new buildings. And that whole
539
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.000
spirit of the game is what we tried to capture
540
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:55.679
and I think we did.
541
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.039
So I want to talk now about the future. So
542
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:01.000
first of all, how.
543
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.079
Did he maybe maybe also one more thing about Civilization,
544
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:09.239
because there's an extra reason why I picked it, and
545
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.039
that's because a little less so for for current titles,
546
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:19.159
but almost all of the earlier Splot heavier Splot Splotted titles,
547
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:24.519
we play tested and created the civilization pieces. So if
548
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:26.800
I have a copy of Civilization, I can design a
549
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:30.800
lot of of extra games that will help.
550
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:35.119
So I want to talk now about the future. So
551
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.239
whenever a Splotter game comes out. I got one friend
552
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.960
in particular, and you know, I say to him, you
553
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.960
could go to the Lunar Box and he would he
554
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.519
would buy it instantly on pre order because anything with
555
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.519
your name on it he absolutely adores. And when Bailiff
556
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.840
of Boss Coop came out, he was absolutely cocker Hoop.
557
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.800
So so what was the inspiration for the game?
558
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:04.639
What there was inspiration for that one? What was twofold
559
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.599
we we we We posted this a teaser social media
560
00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:12.679
social media image as well, because one of the things
561
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:17.840
was really water management in or in in Holland in
562
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:23.159
early early Middle Ages, because it started out as a
563
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:27.159
swamp and it need it needed to be drained to
564
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:29.800
to be used forul land and really all the the
565
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:35.039
p digging there there and then it turned into a
566
00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:38.480
lot of water and when there was a storm, all
567
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:41.480
the all the dykes and all the roads which would
568
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:45.960
flood over and be destroyed and that would need to
569
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.800
be managed, et cetera. So that whole history of water
570
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:55.440
management was what what was an inspiration? And also in
571
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.079
the game. I mean we uh, we made the bike
572
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:02.559
tours through the area and we visited one of the
573
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:08.440
quite deep lakes and that is there now, which started
574
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.519
out well as long so Pete Pete was dug there.
575
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:14.360
So then then then it was a lake and water
576
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.079
and that turned into problems, so it was turned into
577
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:21.039
land again and then it was then it was dug
578
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.599
down again, and so it really changed from water to
579
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:27.880
land to water a few times, and that that was
580
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:32.559
that was fascinating. So that that was one of the pillars,
581
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:37.239
and then the the other one was the judicial system
582
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:43.079
in that time, because uh, if even if at the
583
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:49.320
same spot you committed to two different crimes, you would
584
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.519
you would go to different judges because there there was
585
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:55.719
a judge for low crimes and there was a judge
586
00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:00.360
for high crimes. And then and then if if there
587
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:03.119
were water issues there and there there was a dike
588
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:11.599
a digree for that. So that whole idea was also
589
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:13.800
really fun, and we also wanted to capture that in
590
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:17.920
the game. So both of those combined are actually in
591
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.599
the game now and good fun, I must add.
592
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.719
So what are your hopes for the game? And I
593
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.840
think it's interesting because if I were to speak to
594
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:33.320
someone whose job it is to be a game designer,
595
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:36.800
a job it is to be a publisher, that they
596
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:40.440
hope they would I assume they would respond, well, they
597
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:42.199
would lie and say I hope people love it. What
598
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.639
they mean is is I hope it sells a million
599
00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:47.920
copies and makes me rabulously wealthy. But this isn't your job.
600
00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:51.119
You do this purely for the love of it, And
601
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.280
what are your hopes for the bailiff of Bosco.
602
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.400
Oh, I definitely hope that it sells a million copies
603
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:03.480
and that people will but not but in all seriousness,
604
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.519
I hope that people will love it and play it
605
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:11.880
and and keep playing it. Because one of the problem
606
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.280
is a big word, but one one of the hard
607
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:21.039
things currently is how how do you get somebody to
608
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:26.119
to play a game twice? How how does it how
609
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:31.800
does it get to the table that second time? Because
610
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:36.360
often also our games are quite involved, so you probably
611
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:38.480
need need a few plays in order to see all
612
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:42.800
the intricacies, et cetera. But how do you how do
613
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:47.840
you have people actually give give it that chance before
614
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.199
just discarding the game and say, hey, I have a
615
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.119
million other games that they also want to play.
616
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.960
So then I'm going to ask you, and I'm hoping
617
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:00.760
for a scoop. I assume I'm not going to get one,
618
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.400
but can't blame me for trying. What's the next game?
619
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.320
Well, you mean after Bailiff of Boss, after Bailiff of Boscope,
620
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:15.199
I don't know yet. I've I've had a few discussions
621
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:20.599
videos on on on a few ideas, but we haven't
622
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.360
put we have we haven't put anything to paper yet
623
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:28.480
and and tried because what we often do in the
624
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.360
very early stages of a game we just well, in
625
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:35.280
the early earlier days, we would we would take Civilization
626
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.440
and say, hey, b we have we have these pieces,
627
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:42.639
this is this, and just have a mechanism and try
628
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.320
that out. Just this is this fun? To play this?
629
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.880
We we won't have an ending condition or even scoring,
630
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:54.519
but really just the mechanism shoving the pieces around. Just
631
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:57.559
does this work? Can we make a game out of this?
632
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.000
But we're not that far yet, so there is no
633
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:02.440
scoop to give yet. Sorry.
634
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:08.280
So, when you think about the work you've done since
635
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:11.960
you've formed the company, what impact do you think Splotter
636
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.360
has had on the gaming world.
637
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:22.880
That's that's that's a hard question. I I would hope
638
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.840
that a lot that a lot of people like the designs,
639
00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:29.840
and we've we've also in particular seen some of the
640
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:34.239
design ideas copied by other designers, which which which is wonderful.
641
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:41.679
So it's it's really it's really getting out there, getting
642
00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:43.360
played and people are liking it.
643
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.000
And when you see designers I can think of, for instance,
644
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:55.960
I think Laharva was inspired by roads and boats to
645
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.920
a large degree. When you see someone like Uve Rosenberg,
646
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:03.519
who's such a nun deniably great design being inspired by
647
00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:04.920
your work, how does that feel?
648
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:11.679
That's that that that feels great, and it's great, it's
649
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:14.519
it's great. It's great to see to see those things back.
650
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:21.599
And I think even in Agricula already it's inspired by
651
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:26.960
the growing mechanism of farming in antiquity specifically.
652
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.639
So your last game then is dark Packed. Are you
653
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:34.880
a fan of clever little card games?
654
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.679
Oh? I did? I definitely am man. Darkbacked is a
655
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:45.360
wonderful deck builder, even though that makes me too, makes
656
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:49.719
me take two Tom Lemon games to the cabin. And
657
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:50.840
so then.
658
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.360
How does it so we talked about this, how does
659
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.199
it stack up against other Tom Lemon games?
660
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:07.639
That that's that's that's that's a hard question because I
661
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:11.480
would probably trade it for almost any other Tom Lehman game.
662
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:18.920
I He's he's He's a great guy and and also
663
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:24.360
a great friend. I've met him often, and I love
664
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.840
his style of of game design and also his analytical
665
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.280
sinking and balancing of of of his games.
666
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:38.079
And and so what does Dark Pacts do? Because I
667
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:39.719
think most people listening to this when they think of
668
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:43.079
Tom Lehman think of Race for the Galaxy. But what
669
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.920
does Dark Pack do that's different? And and and why
670
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:47.880
is it so special?
671
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:52.280
Uh? For for me, the Dark Pact is is a
672
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:58.840
Deck Builders or sing Sink Dominion, except there are two
673
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:04.840
big differences and many more. But the first difference is
674
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:09.679
there's no sets and time where you just count the
675
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:12.760
points and you see who did the best by seeing
676
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:16.639
who scored the most points. There are I forget how
677
00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:19.119
many twelve I think twelve Dark packs in the game
678
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:22.280
that you have to buy, and that gives you your
679
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:26.239
victory condition. And if you buy two or three, then
680
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:29.639
you have two or three victory conditions. And those victory
681
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:37.440
conditions are voldly different. They can be something relatively simple
682
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:41.079
like have and I'm making up the numbers here because
683
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:45.039
they don't know them by hard. Have fifty money in
684
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.320
your turn, or have all your cards in play, so
685
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.119
nothing in your hand, nothing in your deck, nothing in
686
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:59.599
your discard or things like, have twenty actions remaining, all
687
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:03.719
all that stuff. So the variety in there is great.
688
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:07.199
And it's also one big deck that that shuffles, so
689
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:11.400
you never know which victory conditions are gonna show up,
690
00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:14.480
so you you have to be pretty flexible and be
691
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:18.639
able to adapt. And then the second thing that I
692
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:23.639
really love and that gives rives to long, long and
693
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:28.239
complicated combos and sometimes long term so I can I
694
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:30.960
can see why that why that could put put off
695
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:35.280
some people is it has these wonderful multiplier cards. So
696
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:40.159
there's simply a two times card and also a three
697
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:43.000
times card, and if you play that together with another
698
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:48.840
card every numeral principle, that card doubles. So you could
699
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:52.159
have a card that says that says draw one card,
700
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:54.239
gain one action, and all of a sudden that says
701
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:58.559
draw two cards and gain two actions. And of course
702
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:01.960
the the player is a printed number, so if you
703
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.000
play it two times on the two times, it's certainly
704
00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:08.079
four times. That's a key way to get to the
705
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:10.039
fifty gold goal, et cetera.
706
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:14.400
But so I've got one more question for you. So
707
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:18.519
you're heading out of Eindoven to the cabin and go
708
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:20.039
around you go around a corner.
709
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:24.880
I'm dreading this question already, and the back door of the.
710
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:28.719
Car flies open. Four of the games fly out down
711
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.639
a ravine, and I'm sure there are tons of ravines
712
00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:35.079
in the lands into a river, and I swept away
713
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:37.760
to posterity. Which game do you hope is sitting on
714
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:38.639
the back seat of the car.
715
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:44.360
Yeah, that's that's a really cruel question, but I think
716
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:48.559
you get that feedback a lot. I do. I probably
717
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:52.639
the eighteen x X game, so eight three. Ay.
718
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.360
So if people want to see what Splotter are up
719
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.679
to and when the next big game comes out, they
720
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.239
can reorder it. How do they go about doing that?
721
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.079
It's, at least, I hope, very easy. You can go
722
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.320
to our website. So just go to splotter dot com
723
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:15.920
and there's a pre order link there. The game will
724
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:21.159
likely be available early twenty seven. It's going to be
725
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.559
very tied to get it at the end of this year.
726
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:28.719
We're trying our best, but first quarter twenty seven is
727
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:33.800
more likely at this point. There's also yours has been
728
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:37.679
doing a lot of Facebook posts on the game's design
729
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.719
and autographic design and graphic design choices. It's also available
730
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:44.960
as a geek list on Board Game Geeks, so you
731
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:48.000
can follow along their for scoops on the game.
732
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:54.000
Excellent, well your own dowmon. Thank you very much.
733
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:55.960
Thank you for having me.
734
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:58.760
You can support the show in many ways. You can
735
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.480
tell your friends talk about it on social media. You
736
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:03.679
can talk about it in your own blog, podcast or video.
737
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:05.960
You can put it directly going to picture on dot com,
738
00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.480
forward slash five gfd for a rolling donation or for
739
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:10.599
a one off donation hitting the PayPal link at the
740
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:14.280
website fivegfd dot com. It's these donations that keep the
741
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:16.840
show going. You can join the best discording gaming We're
742
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:19.960
going to five gfd dot com and clicking the button. Also,
743
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:21.519
if you want to say something nice about the show,
744
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:23.199
if you want to see something horrible about the showing,
745
00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:26.920
contact me at five Games for Doomsday at gmail dot com.
746
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:29.679
And if I've managed to skip away from the blister
747
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:34.000
and the cat whiskers and the shambling disappointment, I'll see
748
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:38.280
you in two weeks for another five games for Doomsday