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Hey, hi, hello, and welcome to another episode of First Spin, the podcast that introduces you to up-and-coming artists before they hit it big, so you can say I knew them when.
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My guest today is Noah Thomas, who releases music under the name American Fraternity.
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Now Noah is originally from Maryland, but he currently lives in Los Angeles.
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We talked about being sensitive boys in masculine places, his time working for Sirius XM radio, the unique approach he takes to TikTok, and how imperfections in music are going to become more and more important.
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Here's a snippet of Nights Like This by American Fraternity, and then my conversation with Noah.
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It's funny, dude, I did not know your name was Noah until like literally last week.
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And we've sent so many messages back and forth to each other.
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I know, I know.
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It's I have for some reason I just like I just ran with the American fraternity thing.
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Um, and there are a lot I know so many Noah's who make great music, and I was like, all right, we're gonna switch it up.
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Yeah, there's a lot of like prominent Noahs in music.
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Yeah, yeah, old Testament baby.
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Yeah.
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That's it.
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That's it.
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Where did American fraternity come from?
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Um, it was it was sort of a tongue-in-cheek riff on a a photo book that I had a a professor in college who's a visual studies teacher, and he had a uh this basic, it was like a compendium of photos from hazing rituals that he took.
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He went into a house on campus and took photos like with their permission.
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And it was kind of it was kind of this like really controversial thing at the time.
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Um and it it picked up some press, but it was just sort of like a inside joke.
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I was in a fraternity uh in college for for a little while, um, but ultimately I just like uh disaffiliated because I never went to any of the stuff, you know, any of the parties.
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Yeah.
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Um, but it I think that like I I grew up in Maryland and I went to an all-boys school and then I joined a fraternity, and so I've always kind of been around like these hyper masculine uh environments, and I think that I make pretty like introspective music, and it's kind of antithetical to that entire system, I think, that I was a part of for so long.
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Yeah, because uh you don't strike me as like the hyper masculine type.
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So, like what what was that experience like being surrounded by dudes?
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Because I I don't I don't enjoy that stuff at all.
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Like, I don't like being in those environments because I'm just like everybody's just trying to like show each other their dicks and exactly, and I'm just like like why are I I don't want to be around this.
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It's a it's funny.
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I I think that they're like um it was such a huge part of my life for so long that like trying, I think that there was always kind of this this this rub when it when it came to me doing music, because it like I would play at like school assemblies in in middle school and high school, like with my acoustic guitar, and and people just you know it was like a pretty brutal way to sort of start playing music, and I think it sort of helped it helped me, I think like kind of honed my chops because like if you can play in front of like all your classmates who are like ruthless lacrosse players, you know, I feel like you can kind of you can kind of play in front of anyone.
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I mean like I remember playing in front of like you know 400 people in the auditorium and all the lights were up, and I don't know, it's just it uh there are things about you know um these like hyper masculine environments that I've I've been in where like there's a lot that there's a lot to write about.
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I think there's a lot that you can learn from uh these sorts of boys' clubs, I think.
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And so much of my like leaning into music was a response to being around a lot of callous, callous behavior, I think.
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I was just gonna ask if you've seen that new Manosphere documentary on Netflix.
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No, it is that like a clavicular type.
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Is it like a Yeah?
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I don't know if clavicular is I don't think he's part of it.
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It's uh Louis Thoreau.
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Do you know that guy?
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He's like a British guy.
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Um he goes and like basically like spends a few days with these like leading like men's rights podcaster dudes.
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Like I had never really heard of any of these guys, but like apparently like they're huge on like YouTube and they have their podcasts where they just like you know, again, just try to be as macho as possible and talk shit about the women in their lives and you know complain about how tough it is to be a a white male in 2026.
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Yeah, the plight of being a white male.
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Yeah, it's so tough.
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So tough.
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Yeah.
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So you it sounds like you grew up playing music, but then when did you decide to like start seriously playing and like pursuing music, putting stuff out?
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Oh man, I mean, I think ever since I was 12, even younger, like I really I started writing lyrics when I was like nine, and I didn't start playing guitar until I was 12 or 13 because I wanted to accompany myself and I didn't have anyone.
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I mean, my dad plays guitar, so when like I had a song, I'd bring it to him and he'd put chords to it, and then I was like, shit, I could I could figure this out on my own.
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And throughout my whole childhood, I was I was writing songs, um bad songs for a long time, and then I think you know, you write enough bad songs, and you just slowly over time they get more and more tolerable, I think.
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And I'd say about 19 I started putting out music just under my own name, 19 or 20.
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Just did like an EP of of sort of uh singer-songwriter stuff, very simple.
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Uh and then you know, I went to school, I studied English literature.
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Uh, I thought I wanted to, you know, be a writer in some capacity.
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Uh I was doing some internships in in journalism.
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My first internship was actually at the like Spin magazine right after they went out of print and they went fully.
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Oh no shit.
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That's cool.
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Yeah, so I I wrote uh I was doing like e-commerce journalism for them when I was like I was like 17 at the time.
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I was right before it was before I even went to college.
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Um and then I, you know, I took a bunch of classes in in literature and and I wrote some short fiction and I thought maybe I'm gonna try to be a like a fiction writer, um, which is an equally brutal path, I think, uh, to being a musician.
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Um but you know, I I was always writing songs throughout school, college, and playing in bands.
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And after college, I was working in New York during the pandemic.
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I graduated in in 2020 and I was doing like music programming at Sirius XM Pandora all remote, and I was miserable.
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Um it was it's it was a weird thing for me to be so cl like working closely in music, but not actually doing anything creative, and it kind of was just like torturous, I think, for me, and I and I realized that either I'm gonna go all the way or I'm gonna have like do nothing with music.
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So what did that entail, like the music programming for Sirius XM?
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Like what all did that encompass?
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It was just uh like admin data entry stuff and meetings with with like uh hosts of radio shows, just making sure that like it was like metadata stuff, it was super uh like clerical.
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But um yeah, I just I I I don't know, I I realized then that I was gonna have a tough time holding down a normal job, if you know, um and it was also the pandemic, so it was totally remote, and I had no, you know, we I left school a month after winter break let out, we just had to get off campus and I graduated remotely.
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So it was kind of like I was sort of adrift for for a while, like because I never had that the closure, the finality of graduating, and we were in this, you know, and I don't really want to talk about the pandemic because everyone talks about the pandemic.
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It's just like at this point, it's like whatever.
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But what else is there to say about it?
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Yeah.
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Hello, you in the worst way.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And so, I mean, I was I was still writing songs, and um I had started recording with some friends who were working in in Brooklyn at this studio called uh Studio G in like Greenpoint, and I made an EP with them under my last artist project, which is funny, I never I never really talk about it because it's like kind of it to me, it still feels like um the the music feels pretty like juvenile, but I've learned to kind of accept that you know there's still moments that I really appreciate about those songs, and and I spent so much time on them.
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But my last artist project was N-O-T-O, Noto, pronounced uh no no to Noto, one word.
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Um and I started that project because I wrote a song for a Canadian artist named Sarah Diamond, and uh she wanted to put out the song that we wrote and she wanted me to sing on it, and at the time I didn't even have an artist project, so I kind of developed a you know a a a pseudonym.
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And then when I recorded the song with her, it came out and it did like I think it I mean on Apple Music, it's got like well over a million streams.
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It was definitely like for my first like songwriting effort in like a professional capacity, it was it was cool to to sort of see uh a song uh take off in a in a way.
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Um and yeah, I think that was kind of the moment where I was like, oh, I could probably try to figure out how to do this for for a living.
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Um and yeah, from there I just I put out a few singles and then an EP, uh, and that was right basically when I moved to LA.
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All that stuff was finished and it was coming out.
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It came out in like I think October of 2021.
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And yeah, that was kind of that was like the first real stab at music.
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Um but I didn't follow it up.
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There was no like there was no planning around it.
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It was just like I recorded these songs and I put them out there, and you know, I realized pretty quickly that that's not a feasible way uh to to make a living as a as a musician or as a as an artist today.
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You've gotta be so consistent.
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Um because the the half-life of this stuff is so short.
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It's so short.
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It's so short.
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And like even figuring out how long to tease stuff before you release it, I feel like there's there's an art form too, too, because you don't people don't want you don't want people to burn out on the tease before they get the actual thing.
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Absolutely.
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And all the comment sections on TikTok are filled with people just being pissed about someone who's like been hammering the same song like over and over again for for weeks.
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But it works.
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I mean, it does work, right?
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And and that was like with with that song I put out uh nights like this, it was just like a poppy earworm, and I knew that, and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna post this every day, and then it and it kind of worked, you know.
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I I don't have any like no editorial playlists, no like money behind it, and it got like it's like 150,000.
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Yeah, I was looking at that today.
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It's like definitely your best performing song, at least on Spotify.
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And so I was wondering if if you think that there's a correlation between how much you promoted it and how well it it's doing.
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Yeah, I mean I I also think that that was just a it was a promotable song, like and I knew that.
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Like I I don't think I make I don't think I make music that is like best enjoyed in like a 10 or 15 second soundbite.
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I don't I don't write like that.
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Um so it's now sort of the challenge for me is finding a way to uh promote the stuff that that I'm excited about, like the newer stuff in a way that's still gonna grab people.
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Um because you know, I find when I get on like these TikTok lives or like on YouTube or whatever, a lot of the people who are tuning in are older and aren't as like tapped into like pre-saving and and you know, I I think uh it's yeah, it's just a weird I'm I like being a singer or songwriter, it's it's kind of tough like figuring out how to do Yeah.
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I mean that's one of the things you say on TikTok a lot, is like as soon as I figure out how to market my music, it's it's over, it's over.
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Right, right, right.
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Um but it does sound like you you go into these things with a uh some sense of strategy as to how you're going to like once the song is done, you're like do you kind of like map out what the next couple weeks or months are gonna look like in terms of how you're gonna promote it and when you're gonna release it and all that kind of stuff?
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Yeah, I mean I think it's the like the this the one thing that I need is the like mixed and mastered song and the artwork.
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And when that is all submitted to distribution, like that's when I kind of am like, okay, now it's just you know, we're gonna push hard on TikTok, do all the like all the stuff you have to do, like every day, four or five times a day, multiple accounts, posting shit.
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Um and then you know, you curate a an like a uh a hard post on Instagram, and it's yeah, like that's just kind of it it can be kind of uh it gets to be a little bit monotonous, I think, um in the singles economy.
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Because like I want to make a record, like ult I want to make albums, um and it's just like not it's a hard time to do that.
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I don't think people have the attention span right now um on TikTok.
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Like I think that there's a I've I've considered like going the band camp route and trying to connect with people at a more like grassroots level because um you know like yeah, like the half-life on TikTok is just so short, you know.
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Yeah, people are always looking for the next thing.
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Um it's just like it's the nature of of the app, right?
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Like you're just constantly scrolling and looking for the next like dopamine hit, right?
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That's gonna come in 15 seconds.
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Um what so what do you think like the strategy in terms of going in band camp?
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Like what would that what would that look like?
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What would that allow you to do um in terms of being able to release a full album?
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Well, I think that just like I mean, I I know people who um they don't really do they have a TikTok, but they're not really using it, and they're they're playing more shows and and getting on on tours, and I think that it's like you can do it that way if you if you find a good agent, someone who's gonna you know get you on a tour, get you book you shows.
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And um, yeah, I've been working with someone at CAA uh who's been helping me just book stuff in LA without having to do any of the like TikTok stuff, which is it's kind of nice.
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Like he just has these connects, he sends my music, he says this is what American Fraternity is about.
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And he just kind of has landed me some shows here.
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Um and I think that like playing live and getting into a scene with like-minded people is also like a powerful way of getting actual fans, like people who are going to shows.
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Uh and I think that those are like the real like those are the real fans that you want are people who are gonna come out and buy a ticket, buy merch, you know, and I think that a lot of um a lot of like I I think live performance is the best way to know if somebody has it.
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Um because there's so many people now who can make a song on their computer, you know, with an infinite amount of time, an infinite number of takes to get the the perfect thing, but it doesn't r always translate to to getting in front of a crowd, to be able to speak to a crowd.
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It's a com it's a completely different skill set to be able to do it on stage in real time than like you said, to be able to do take after take after take.
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I had a guy on um earlier this year, a guy named Will Overman, who does kind of like a country style thing, and he was talking about playing a show in New York City, and he you know had played like there was like maybe like you know, 20, 30 people or something that had come to his show, and downstairs there was like a separate room with that like was like a 200 cap room.
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Yeah, and he like popped his head in there after his set, and the downstairs room was sold out, and he heard the guy on stage, like the kid on stage being like, This is my first show ever.
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And it's like he's like, I've been doing this for a decade playing shows, and you know, I only had 20 people show up, but this guy puts one song out and he's selling out the venue.
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Yeah, it's crazy.
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It is crazy, and it's like I try not to like it's a weird thing because I don't want to knock that.
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I think that it's like that's an incredible thing.
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Like the the internet is so powerful, and if you're doing something that translates, I mean you can you can have a career overnight.
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Um and I kind of realized at at a certain point that like that wasn't gonna be my path.
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Like I just don't I mean it's it's possible I could have a moment, like a real viral moment.
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But I just don't think like mo most of my favorite artists, if not all of them, but didn't build a career on TikTok.
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Uh I I do think that there's like um there's a certain language, there's a certain way of writing for TikTok.
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And you start, and I do this too, I'm guilty of it, but thinking of ways to draw in someone and get that like and retain their attention like in for 10, 15 seconds.
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So you start to write, you try to be a little bit more idiosyncratic or funny or edgy just to be able to capture people on an app.
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Um and it's it can it definitely it's hard to step away from that and try to make something that's inspired or honest, you know.
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Yeah, I was gonna say like there's there must be a level of inauthenticity uh that comes from just being so focused on trying to create a viral moment as opposed to writing the song that you want to write and saying what you want to say.
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Yeah.
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Um I I imagine that that's a really frustrating thing.
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So, okay, so if if not for TikTok, then like you know, how are people finding new music?
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That's how I find you know, that's like how I find that's how I found you, right?
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Like you were pumping in your room, uh I think it was just maybe a month or so before it came out, and like immediately I was like, oh, this is great.
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What is happening here?
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I think yeah, I think it's a beautiful song, I think it's brilliantly constructed.
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Um thank you.
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And so and but like, you know, had it not been for TikTok, like would I have come across that somewhere else?
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I don't I I I don't know, doubtful.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I I mean that's that's the thing.
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Like, and and there's I I was talking to one of my friends um who is a great songwriter.
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Uh his name's Linus Ablo, and he Recently had something, a song blow up on TikTok.
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It's called Say Yes, and he's a great songwriter.
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Um, but we were talking about how like we're always kind of like poo-pooing the app until it works, and I think it's just it's a very real thing.
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Um, because every day I'm posting and it's like, oh, this got 200 views.
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Fuck this.
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Like, no one gives a shit.
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But the second that it gets some track, it should be like, what is this song?
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Like, what's going on here?
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You're like, oh shit.
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Yeah, this is cool.
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This is really, this is nice.
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I find it incredibly entertaining.
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Like you said, you're you post a lot, you're very active.
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Um, but like you're one of the main things you do for anybody who uh hasn't followed you on TikTok, I would highly recommend it.
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It's a good follow.
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Uh you won't be bored.
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Um, but you have your song playing in the background, and you're just kind of not really doing anything.
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Like usually just kind of like staring at the at the screen or walking around or whatever.
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And then you have sometimes like a lot of text over the top of the screen, and sometimes it just is completely nonsensical.
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Sometimes it's like a story that like may or may not be true, which I think is kind of part of the fun.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.559
A lot of it's just kind of like, I don't think this happened, but it could have happened.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.880
Yeah, like where do you come up with with these ideas for like what you're gonna type?
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.599
In my head, you just smoke a fat bowl and start smoking.
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.519
But that's so funny.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.119
It's right because I'm I'm literally, I do not even smoke, so like I'm never up there.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:51.519
These are all these are all very lucid, uh, lucid thoughts that I'm having.
00:24:51.759 --> 00:25:07.200
Uh but I I kind of like spending so much time looking at at the mirage that is TikTok, I was just kind of like, look, nobody really deserves the truth on this app.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.279
This app is just, it's just filled with like it's AI slop.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.000
It's it's it's really it's terrible.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.160
It's terrible for us, it's destroying our brains.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:25.200
And so I just I was kind of just leaning into the absurdity of uh whether it's I mean, there are there are moments of like earnestness where I'll do like a little cultural commentary.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:40.160
Sometimes I'll talk about LA, like I just posted one a couple days ago that I kind of got like a hundred thousand views and talking about how the like being like a hedonist in LA is like the highest form of social capital because nobody it seems like nobody here does anything.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:49.359
I mean, you know, but yet they drive Range Rovers, yeah, like are going out to fancy restaurants and designer bags, and it's like what like what how how what is your life?
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:50.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:26:17.279
And I and I think that that's like sort of the like you go to Beverly Hills, you go to you know, like the West Side, and there's just all these people who are living for like lunch and dinner reservations, and it's it's just like one of the only like I'm I grew up in Maryland where like people work, people go like they they people work hard for for what they have, and like you go to you get up in the morning, you put on a suit, you know, you put on a you put on your your slacks and you and you drive to work.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:22.559
And it's just like out here is kind of this like this hedonistic playground.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.559
Um, and it's it's crazy.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.559
It's it just it's not real life.
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.839
Yeah, and I think you know, uh it's been exacerbated uh post-COVID, right?
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.440
Just like everything, like the work from home stuff, everybody's schedules are kind of different.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:54.079
And that's also kind of part of the culture in LA, is a lot of people like yourself, right, like working uh like service industry jobs or just kind of working odd hours, working whenever they want, especially if they're in that kind of in there, if they're in the entertainment world, sometimes their their work is like, you know, 6 p.m.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:59.039
to midnight because it is going and checking out new artists or going to art galleries or that kind of stuff.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.480
So it is it's a really interesting culture um around here.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:23.119
But it's you know, that's one of the things that was so great about LA when Hollywood was thriving, was that the service was, in my opinion, the best in the world because your your waiter, your bartender, your whatever didn't necessarily know who you were, but they were all trying to make it in Hollywood.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:34.319
And so the last thing they want to do is be impolite or rude or whatever to somebody, and then the next day they go into an audition and there's the fucking casting director that they were a dick to the day before.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.480
And now like things just don't really work like that in LA anymore.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.559
And so I've noticed that the service industry has like really seems to have taken a serious decline.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.519
Oh, 100%.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.720
I I think I think also I think people are just tired.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.640
I think it's like living in in a city like LA, it's so expensive.
00:27:52.960 --> 00:28:05.279
And the people who are who are like who have the the money to go out and and eat all the time at nice restaurants, they're they're so far removed from the the everyman, I think.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.440
Um because the I mean the middle class has been completely decimated.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:25.440
And I think now there's just this like there's this this really stark uh dichotomy between people who have to work every day and and people who have passive income or you know, have have made it in a sense.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:26.000
Right.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.200
Very much so.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.240
California is heavy on my mind, speaking of LA and California.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:06.960
Um it's got a it's got a real like John Mayer vibe to it, which I like a lot.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.000
Um where where's where did that song come from?
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:19.279
Oh, that was um that was one of those songs that I just I wrote in like you know 15 minutes, and I feel like a lot of the songs come really quickly.
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.480
You know, I try to write every day, I uh but you know, you can't always force those things.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.119
It just felt it just felt good.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:43.680
Um there was very little uh like there was there's very little editing, and I just I kind of wanted to put something out that was uh unpolished, like just something that felt like a like a voice, a voice memo or a demo.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:49.279
And I I recorded it with my friend Michael Cipolletti, who's an amazing bass player and songwriter.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:55.599
Uh at his house we just did two guitar takes and then two uh vocal takes.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:01.920
And then I brought it over to my friend Cameron's studio and we layered some synths and some textures, and that was it.
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:08.640
It was it was just I mean, it's just a song about you know feeling kind of burnt by the city.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:17.839
Um and it's a pretty universal thing, I think, for anyone who comes out here, whether or not they're chasing uh some sort of pipe dream.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:19.359
But yeah.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:21.279
Yeah, I love it.
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.559
I I think I think it's great.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.160
It's been it's been on repeat all week, man.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:25.359
I've really dug it a lot.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.160
Yeah, it's cool.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:39.440
It is, it's it's definitely a little bit uh, like you said, less polished, I think is a good way to put it, but it's still definitely my it fits within you know the the sonic category of of the rest of your music.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:50.480
Um we're speaking of uh one of the questions I asked you in the in the pre-interview email uh was your main influences, which it was I your in your answer was interesting because it was a little bit all over the board.
00:30:50.559 --> 00:31:00.240
You said Slystone, yes, um, and then Elliot Smith, which those two artists really couldn't be much more different from each other, yeah.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:05.599
And then Phil Linet, who I I assume you're talking about the thin Lizzie Phil Lynet?
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:09.680
Yeah, yeah, um, which again very different than those other two.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:16.400
So, like how how do all those different influences uh impact the music that you're making?
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:24.799
So I think I mean I I was listening to uh uh this James Blake interview, because he just put out a new record, which is amazing.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:36.079
He's also one of my favorites, but um he was talking about how he believes that everyone sort of is put on this earth with the same like more or less the same uh abilities.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.519
If they work hard at something, you know, they can get good at it, whether it's music or it's something else.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.519
But really the way to make good music is to tap into like the spirit.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:52.960
It's how it's how you like how you can harness whatever that thing is.
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:58.480
It's not like rooted in some sort of empirical skill set.
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:11.440
And I think all of those people in their own way did that really effectively and created sort of a sound that that hadn't existed before.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:17.839
I think Sly was sort of the blueprint for he was the blueprint for R ⁇ B music even today.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:25.279
Like he was he was the blueprint for Prince, for for Michael, for like everything after, and it was just all him.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:33.039
And um even his like production choices, the way he would like pan a guitar that was just like doing something purely rhythmic.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.720
It would it had so much so much character and so much feel.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:58.240
Um and uh you know, someone like Elliot Smith kind of made the like he was playing in all these heavy bands in the 90s and he was in a real scene, and then he pulls up with an acoustic guitar and and captivates audiences, yeah, like people dead silent and as he's like whispering into a microphone.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:05.680
I mean, there's something so like almost like voyeuristic about about the way about watching him perform.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:31.440
It's you feel like you shouldn't be, the way there's something like and and I and I love that about about Elliot Smith and that he kind of took the acoustic guitar, which was sort of at the time like not a really cool thing, in the mid-90s when there was all this grunge and all this post punk happening, and he he was able to do something that that captivated people who were like in the scene.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:52.160
Um and and Phil and I from Thin Lizzie, I've just been listening to a bunch of their early records, and like he also was like he could write an incredible song on the acoustic guitar and then just write them like just make the most incredible, like spirited full band arrangement.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:57.759
Um that song Cowboy Song, I don't know if you've ever heard that, but it's one of my all-time favorite songs.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.559
It's a great song.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:03.359
Then Lizzie's uh incredibly underrated band, agreed, in my opinion, yeah.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:03.759
Agreed.
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:05.359
Very underrated.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:11.760
You're you know how Spotify gives you like fans of this artist also like these bands.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:18.000
So I was looking at yours today, um, and I was just wondering if you were familiar with any of them, if you had thoughts on any of them.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:24.239
Uh there are Adam Henderson, uh, Dressworm, Tiger's Eye, Eden Joel, Ranger.
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:25.679
Do you know any of these?
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:30.079
Oh, um, I know Eden Joel.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:36.880
We follow each other on Instagram, and he's I think he's signed to Big Loud or the record label.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.079
I was doing some uh writing with someone on the publishing side from from that record label.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:45.599
Uh his music's great.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:46.880
Love Eden Joel's stuff.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.320
So out of all of the ones that I listed, that's the only one I'm familiar with, too.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.840
And yeah, I I would I would agree.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:52.880
I think his stuff is great.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:53.679
He's great.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:54.480
He's really great.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.400
Um I think he's super young too.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.880
He's like he's really, really talented.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:01.119
I think he's gonna he's gonna blow up for sure.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:02.159
Yeah.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:02.480
Yeah.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:12.559
It's just I always think that's interesting because like sometimes you go look through those artists and it's like you know, it like makes sense, and then some of them like don't seem to make sense at all.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:22.719
So I was just curious as to if you had if you had dove into many of those catalogs just to see what else was kind of what other other like fans of your music, the other stuff that they were into.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:37.199
Yeah, it's funny because I think that right now, like I have such a small listener base that I don't I I think that like every time I release a song that changes the the like recommended or people also listen to section.
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:44.800
Um so I mean, yeah, I I should probably listen to some of these other other groups.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.400
Maybe I'll do that after we get off this uh yeah, yeah, this call.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:49.119
Let me know.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:53.360
Let me know if you come across any that I should uh I should check out, or maybe I'll maybe I'll do that too.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.840
Yeah.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:02.800
Um you seem to have um a lot of confidence in in yourself and in the music that you make.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:21.840
And I don't mean that in like you don't come across arrogant at all, but you seem to like be confident about the music you're releasing in a way that I think a lot of people seem to have maybe some imposter syndrome, whether they should or not, or just you know, some I think normal self-consciousness or self-doubts.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.239
Is that first of all, is that true?
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:29.280
And second of all, are you um if so, like what where does that come from?
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:48.000
Um I I think that the like uncertainty in yourself and in your music, especially if you're playing live, it's just like the it's the worst possible thing that you can sort of give out to the audience.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:52.960
Like I think it's like it's sort of infectious if you're uncertain about it, they will be too.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:06.000
And um I I kind of I I definitely I'm I'm it took me a long time to be like happy or just satisfied with the work that I'm doing.
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.320
Uh, it's never going to be perfect.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:16.639
And there are things that whenever I listen to the stuff that I put out, I've got like an infinite number of notes at things that I would change.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:30.400
Um, but the thing about making music is like you cannot like you cannot think about those things because you will never get anything done if you're if you're just like bound to perfection.
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:30.800
Right.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.039
Um and I think for so long I didn't put out music because I was waiting for it to be perfect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:43.199
And I I just at this point it like you can't you can't sweat those like little things all the time.
00:37:43.360 --> 00:38:02.239
I want I want the stuff to sound great, I want people to love it, but also I can't get hung up on every little creative choice or like maybe like just a in like yeah, I guess it's it's a matter of doing stuff in a in an efficient way to get to where I want to be.
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:03.760
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:16.800
Yeah, I've I've heard a number of people saying that people are going to be longing for a little bit more imperfection in their music because you know, with AI, like everything can just be perfect automatically.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:33.199
Um and so in order to I guess ensure that it's human-made and authentic, people are gonna be looking for stuff that is you know that it has some blemishes and um maybe isn't exactly to the beat or isn't exactly perfect.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:34.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:52.880
But all I think that's like that's why like people I think ultimately people are listening to music for its imperfection, for the human elements, whether it's like I mean, you know, take like live performance, for example.
00:38:53.039 --> 00:39:03.760
Like you can never you can never get uh you know, like an AI hologram to to do the same thing that like a person on stage with a with a guitar or a band would do.
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:16.719
And I think that like even even the idea of of a of a song uh that you know and and love, and you like you know, you go see the band play live, and it sounds a little different, you know.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:17.840
At least it should.
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:34.000
I think that like live like the the issue too now with a lot of bands is that they're you know they've got playback, they're running tracks on top of the music because modern production has become so uh like detailed, and there's so many elements to hold your attention.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:42.320
So trying to do that same thing with just a like an acoustic guitar or a four-piece band, it's it's not gonna hit the same.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:52.559
And I kind of think that there's a responsibility as an artist to like not to just try to make it sound like the recording, you know.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:04.960
And I think that like it's it's important to give people like the essence of the song without without having every single like little pad and synth that's pre-recorded, um, or like these vocal stacks.
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:14.159
Sometimes you'll go to a show and there's these like 12, 15 harmony stacks on top of the vocalist voice, and it's just it's not like that's not a live show, right?
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.360
You know, yeah.
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.079
Um I could have just listened to the album at home.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:19.760
Like, yeah, 100%.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:21.199
That's yeah.
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:22.719
Exactly.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.960
Um, speaking of playing live shows, you are playing in May at the Airliner Bar.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:29.360
Yeah.
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:30.639
Is that where is that?
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.280
Downtown?
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.760
That's yeah, it's like it's kind of Lincoln Heights.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.559
Um okay.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:35.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:36.880
So pretty close to downtown.
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:38.320
It's a great, a great venue.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.840
I've played there before.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:40.719
What is it?
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.239
You're playing with a full band too?
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:43.679
I'm gonna do full band, yeah.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:45.760
It's part of a it hasn't been announced yet.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.639
I don't even know who else is on the bill, but I'm on uh it's it's for Rock Knight LA.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.800
The last section of the podcast is called Final Spin.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:54.480
It's just like rapid fire questions.
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:56.079
First thing that comes to mind.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:00.960
Um, if you could share a stage with any artist living or dead, who would it be?
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.280
Oh man, that's so insane.
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:04.559
It's such a good question.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.880
Um, Peter Gabriel.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:08.559
Oh, that's a cool answer.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.760
What was the first album you owned that was just yours?
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:13.920
What's going on, Marvin Gay?
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.599
They're making a biopic about your life.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:19.199
Who's playing the lead role?
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.440
James Spader.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.559
It's a cool yeah.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.320
Uh his role in the office is still, I think, incredibly underwhelmed.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.679
California is unbelievable.
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.360
One of my all-time favorite characters.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:33.760
Yes.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:35.360
So good.
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:35.760
Yeah.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.440
Um, is there an artist or band that you love that people might be surprised by?
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:45.840
I would say Show Me the Body, which is like a hardcore band from New York, love them, or Freddie Gibbs, the rapper.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:47.840
He's like one of my favorite artists of all time.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.400
Like I would love to work with him.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:51.920
He's like a dream collaborator.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:52.639
Nice.
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:59.199
And then the final question is who's an artist with less than 100,000 monthly listeners on Spotify that you think people should be listening to?
00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:02.239
Oh, there's so many, so many.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:07.199
Um I would say Armlock, this band from the UK.
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:20.079
They're they've been pretty consistently for the last few years, but like one of my most listened to bands, but it's super stripped-down, sort of uh alternative pop rock.
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:24.960
They're they're very reminiscent of this band pinback from the 90s, early 2000s.
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:31.760
Umlock is, they've got like 24,000 monthlies, and they're incredible.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:32.559
Cool.
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:33.760
Cool, cool, cool.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:35.199
I'm excited to check them out.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.159
Um, dude, I'm so glad we finally got to do this, man.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.599
I don't, I don't know.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.119
I it's probably on me.
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:46.960
Uh I think you were actually one of the first people I reached out to when I like even had the idea for doing this podcast.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:54.239
And then for some reason I got it in my head that like you didn't want to do it, but like I don't know like what I I invented that in my head, I think.
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.880
Yeah, no, I don't it was I think it was more maybe it was a timing thing, but I was super stoked.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:43:59.840
I I love what you're doing.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.159
And I I'm so happy to I'm happy to finally get to do this with you.
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:12.719
Yeah, it's so great to finally connect because like we've sent I don't know how many dozens of messages and I like I know your sense of humor just based on the TikToks you research.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.480
So I like I'll come across stuff and I'm just like, oh, American Fraternity will like this.
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:17.760
Like I didn't even know your names.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.559
No, I'm just like I'm just great.
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.920
I'm so glad we finally got to make it happen.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:33.280
American Fraternity is playing as part of Rock Knight LA on May 13th, and I will see you there.
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.480
American Fraternity is also a really fun follow on TikTok, so I encourage you to follow him.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:42.880
While you're there, go ahead, follow the first spin socials at firstspin podcast.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:47.920
If there's someone you think I should check out, please email me at firstspinpod at gmail.com.
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:50.400
Also, I release a new playlist every Sunday.
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:58.239
It's a mix of new songs by old artists, old songs by new artists, first spin alum, future first bin guests, whatever is vibing that week.
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.159
And there will definitely be some American fraternity on there this week.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:08.320
You can find uh this week's playlist on Spotify and Apple Music under First Spin Week of 41326.
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.840
Happy birthday, Matt.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:11.199
That is all for this week.
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:12.239
Thank you for listening.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:13.199
And you know what?
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:14.559
Send this to your mom.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:16.159
I think she's gonna like it.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:14.640
Hey, hi, hello, and welcome to another episode of First Spin, the podcast that introduces you to up-and-coming artists before they hit it big, so you can say I knew them when.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:20.399
My guest today is Noah Thomas, who releases music under the name American Fraternity.
00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:24.559
Now Noah is originally from Maryland, but he currently lives in Los Angeles.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:37.759
We talked about being sensitive boys in masculine places, his time working for Sirius XM radio, the unique approach he takes to TikTok, and how imperfections in music are going to become more and more important.
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Here's a snippet of Nights Like This by American Fraternity, and then my conversation with Noah.
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:50.560
It's funny, dude, I did not know your name was Noah until like literally last week.
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And we've sent so many messages back and forth to each other.
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I know, I know.
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It's I have for some reason I just like I just ran with the American fraternity thing.
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Um, and there are a lot I know so many Noah's who make great music, and I was like, all right, we're gonna switch it up.
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.599
Yeah, there's a lot of like prominent Noahs in music.
00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.919
Yeah, yeah, old Testament baby.
00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:12.240
Yeah.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:13.039
That's it.
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:13.680
That's it.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.000
Where did American fraternity come from?
00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:34.800
Um, it was it was sort of a tongue-in-cheek riff on a a photo book that I had a a professor in college who's a visual studies teacher, and he had a uh this basic, it was like a compendium of photos from hazing rituals that he took.
00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.840
He went into a house on campus and took photos like with their permission.
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And it was kind of it was kind of this like really controversial thing at the time.
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Um and it it picked up some press, but it was just sort of like a inside joke.
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I was in a fraternity uh in college for for a little while, um, but ultimately I just like uh disaffiliated because I never went to any of the stuff, you know, any of the parties.
00:02:58.560 --> 00:02:58.879
Yeah.
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:21.520
Um, but it I think that like I I grew up in Maryland and I went to an all-boys school and then I joined a fraternity, and so I've always kind of been around like these hyper masculine uh environments, and I think that I make pretty like introspective music, and it's kind of antithetical to that entire system, I think, that I was a part of for so long.
00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:27.680
Yeah, because uh you don't strike me as like the hyper masculine type.
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So, like what what was that experience like being surrounded by dudes?
00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:34.560
Because I I don't I don't enjoy that stuff at all.
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Like, I don't like being in those environments because I'm just like everybody's just trying to like show each other their dicks and exactly, and I'm just like like why are I I don't want to be around this.
00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:46.639
It's a it's funny.
00:03:46.719 --> 00:04:26.079
I I think that they're like um it was such a huge part of my life for so long that like trying, I think that there was always kind of this this this rub when it when it came to me doing music, because it like I would play at like school assemblies in in middle school and high school, like with my acoustic guitar, and and people just you know it was like a pretty brutal way to sort of start playing music, and I think it sort of helped it helped me, I think like kind of honed my chops because like if you can play in front of like all your classmates who are like ruthless lacrosse players, you know, I feel like you can kind of you can kind of play in front of anyone.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:46.480
I mean like I remember playing in front of like you know 400 people in the auditorium and all the lights were up, and I don't know, it's just it uh there are things about you know um these like hyper masculine environments that I've I've been in where like there's a lot that there's a lot to write about.
00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:52.079
I think there's a lot that you can learn from uh these sorts of boys' clubs, I think.
00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:59.759
And so much of my like leaning into music was a response to being around a lot of callous, callous behavior, I think.
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:04.720
I was just gonna ask if you've seen that new Manosphere documentary on Netflix.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.360
No, it is that like a clavicular type.
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Is it like a Yeah?
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I don't know if clavicular is I don't think he's part of it.
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It's uh Louis Thoreau.
00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:14.879
Do you know that guy?
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.279
He's like a British guy.
00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:27.519
Um he goes and like basically like spends a few days with these like leading like men's rights podcaster dudes.
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Like I had never really heard of any of these guys, but like apparently like they're huge on like YouTube and they have their podcasts where they just like you know, again, just try to be as macho as possible and talk shit about the women in their lives and you know complain about how tough it is to be a a white male in 2026.
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Yeah, the plight of being a white male.
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Yeah, it's so tough.
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So tough.
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Yeah.
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So you it sounds like you grew up playing music, but then when did you decide to like start seriously playing and like pursuing music, putting stuff out?
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:15.759
Oh man, I mean, I think ever since I was 12, even younger, like I really I started writing lyrics when I was like nine, and I didn't start playing guitar until I was 12 or 13 because I wanted to accompany myself and I didn't have anyone.
00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:23.439
I mean, my dad plays guitar, so when like I had a song, I'd bring it to him and he'd put chords to it, and then I was like, shit, I could I could figure this out on my own.
00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:37.839
And throughout my whole childhood, I was I was writing songs, um bad songs for a long time, and then I think you know, you write enough bad songs, and you just slowly over time they get more and more tolerable, I think.
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And I'd say about 19 I started putting out music just under my own name, 19 or 20.
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Just did like an EP of of sort of uh singer-songwriter stuff, very simple.
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Uh and then you know, I went to school, I studied English literature.
00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:59.839
Uh, I thought I wanted to, you know, be a writer in some capacity.
00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:02.639
Uh I was doing some internships in in journalism.
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:08.079
My first internship was actually at the like Spin magazine right after they went out of print and they went fully.
00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:09.199
Oh no shit.
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:09.759
That's cool.
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:17.519
Yeah, so I I wrote uh I was doing like e-commerce journalism for them when I was like I was like 17 at the time.
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I was right before it was before I even went to college.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:38.480
Um and then I, you know, I took a bunch of classes in in literature and and I wrote some short fiction and I thought maybe I'm gonna try to be a like a fiction writer, um, which is an equally brutal path, I think, uh, to being a musician.
00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:45.199
Um but you know, I I was always writing songs throughout school, college, and playing in bands.
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And after college, I was working in New York during the pandemic.
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I graduated in in 2020 and I was doing like music programming at Sirius XM Pandora all remote, and I was miserable.
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Um it was it's it was a weird thing for me to be so cl like working closely in music, but not actually doing anything creative, and it kind of was just like torturous, I think, for me, and I and I realized that either I'm gonna go all the way or I'm gonna have like do nothing with music.
00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:21.519
So what did that entail, like the music programming for Sirius XM?
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Like what all did that encompass?
00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:35.840
It was just uh like admin data entry stuff and meetings with with like uh hosts of radio shows, just making sure that like it was like metadata stuff, it was super uh like clerical.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:58.080
But um yeah, I just I I I don't know, I I realized then that I was gonna have a tough time holding down a normal job, if you know, um and it was also the pandemic, so it was totally remote, and I had no, you know, we I left school a month after winter break let out, we just had to get off campus and I graduated remotely.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:14.720
So it was kind of like I was sort of adrift for for a while, like because I never had that the closure, the finality of graduating, and we were in this, you know, and I don't really want to talk about the pandemic because everyone talks about the pandemic.
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:18.159
It's just like at this point, it's like whatever.
00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:20.080
But what else is there to say about it?
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:20.879
Yeah.
00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.919
Hello, you in the worst way.
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:03.200
Yeah.
00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:03.679
Yeah.
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:35.679
And so, I mean, I was I was still writing songs, and um I had started recording with some friends who were working in in Brooklyn at this studio called uh Studio G in like Greenpoint, and I made an EP with them under my last artist project, which is funny, I never I never really talk about it because it's like kind of it to me, it still feels like um the the music feels pretty like juvenile, but I've learned to kind of accept that you know there's still moments that I really appreciate about those songs, and and I spent so much time on them.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:43.120
But my last artist project was N-O-T-O, Noto, pronounced uh no no to Noto, one word.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:12:03.200
Um and I started that project because I wrote a song for a Canadian artist named Sarah Diamond, and uh she wanted to put out the song that we wrote and she wanted me to sing on it, and at the time I didn't even have an artist project, so I kind of developed a you know a a a pseudonym.
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:10.399
And then when I recorded the song with her, it came out and it did like I think it I mean on Apple Music, it's got like well over a million streams.
00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:24.080
It was definitely like for my first like songwriting effort in like a professional capacity, it was it was cool to to sort of see uh a song uh take off in a in a way.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:32.399
Um and yeah, I think that was kind of the moment where I was like, oh, I could probably try to figure out how to do this for for a living.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:41.840
Um and yeah, from there I just I put out a few singles and then an EP, uh, and that was right basically when I moved to LA.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:43.759
All that stuff was finished and it was coming out.
00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.960
It came out in like I think October of 2021.
00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:54.240
And yeah, that was kind of that was like the first real stab at music.
00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.480
Um but I didn't follow it up.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.879
There was no like there was no planning around it.
00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:11.840
It was just like I recorded these songs and I put them out there, and you know, I realized pretty quickly that that's not a feasible way uh to to make a living as a as a musician or as a as an artist today.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.559
You've gotta be so consistent.
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:19.360
Um because the the half-life of this stuff is so short.
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It's so short.
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:21.679
It's so short.
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:33.519
And like even figuring out how long to tease stuff before you release it, I feel like there's there's an art form too, too, because you don't people don't want you don't want people to burn out on the tease before they get the actual thing.
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:34.240
Absolutely.
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And all the comment sections on TikTok are filled with people just being pissed about someone who's like been hammering the same song like over and over again for for weeks.
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:44.159
But it works.
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I mean, it does work, right?
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:58.799
And and that was like with with that song I put out uh nights like this, it was just like a poppy earworm, and I knew that, and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna post this every day, and then it and it kind of worked, you know.
00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:04.720
I I don't have any like no editorial playlists, no like money behind it, and it got like it's like 150,000.
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:06.879
Yeah, I was looking at that today.
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:11.919
It's like definitely your best performing song, at least on Spotify.
00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:18.480
And so I was wondering if if you think that there's a correlation between how much you promoted it and how well it it's doing.
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:23.679
Yeah, I mean I I also think that that was just a it was a promotable song, like and I knew that.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:34.960
Like I I don't think I make I don't think I make music that is like best enjoyed in like a 10 or 15 second soundbite.
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.399
I don't I don't write like that.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:48.720
Um so it's now sort of the challenge for me is finding a way to uh promote the stuff that that I'm excited about, like the newer stuff in a way that's still gonna grab people.
00:14:48.879 --> 00:15:12.000
Um because you know, I find when I get on like these TikTok lives or like on YouTube or whatever, a lot of the people who are tuning in are older and aren't as like tapped into like pre-saving and and you know, I I think uh it's yeah, it's just a weird I'm I like being a singer or songwriter, it's it's kind of tough like figuring out how to do Yeah.
00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:17.679
I mean that's one of the things you say on TikTok a lot, is like as soon as I figure out how to market my music, it's it's over, it's over.
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:18.799
Right, right, right.
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:35.600
Um but it does sound like you you go into these things with a uh some sense of strategy as to how you're going to like once the song is done, you're like do you kind of like map out what the next couple weeks or months are gonna look like in terms of how you're gonna promote it and when you're gonna release it and all that kind of stuff?
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:43.919
Yeah, I mean I think it's the like the this the one thing that I need is the like mixed and mastered song and the artwork.
00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:01.200
And when that is all submitted to distribution, like that's when I kind of am like, okay, now it's just you know, we're gonna push hard on TikTok, do all the like all the stuff you have to do, like every day, four or five times a day, multiple accounts, posting shit.
00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:21.120
Um and then you know, you curate a an like a uh a hard post on Instagram, and it's yeah, like that's just kind of it it can be kind of uh it gets to be a little bit monotonous, I think, um in the singles economy.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:29.440
Because like I want to make a record, like ult I want to make albums, um and it's just like not it's a hard time to do that.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:36.159
I don't think people have the attention span right now um on TikTok.
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:51.039
Like I think that there's a I've I've considered like going the band camp route and trying to connect with people at a more like grassroots level because um you know like yeah, like the half-life on TikTok is just so short, you know.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.440
Yeah, people are always looking for the next thing.
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.120
Um it's just like it's the nature of of the app, right?
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:01.919
Like you're just constantly scrolling and looking for the next like dopamine hit, right?
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:03.759
That's gonna come in 15 seconds.
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.319
Um what so what do you think like the strategy in terms of going in band camp?
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.319
Like what would that what would that look like?
00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:16.720
What would that allow you to do um in terms of being able to release a full album?
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:36.079
Well, I think that just like I mean, I I know people who um they don't really do they have a TikTok, but they're not really using it, and they're they're playing more shows and and getting on on tours, and I think that it's like you can do it that way if you if you find a good agent, someone who's gonna you know get you on a tour, get you book you shows.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:47.279
And um, yeah, I've been working with someone at CAA uh who's been helping me just book stuff in LA without having to do any of the like TikTok stuff, which is it's kind of nice.
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:52.000
Like he just has these connects, he sends my music, he says this is what American Fraternity is about.
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.680
And he just kind of has landed me some shows here.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:08.160
Um and I think that like playing live and getting into a scene with like-minded people is also like a powerful way of getting actual fans, like people who are going to shows.
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:25.680
Uh and I think that those are like the real like those are the real fans that you want are people who are gonna come out and buy a ticket, buy merch, you know, and I think that a lot of um a lot of like I I think live performance is the best way to know if somebody has it.
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:44.240
Um because there's so many people now who can make a song on their computer, you know, with an infinite amount of time, an infinite number of takes to get the the perfect thing, but it doesn't r always translate to to getting in front of a crowd, to be able to speak to a crowd.
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:53.440
It's a com it's a completely different skill set to be able to do it on stage in real time than like you said, to be able to do take after take after take.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:14.720
I had a guy on um earlier this year, a guy named Will Overman, who does kind of like a country style thing, and he was talking about playing a show in New York City, and he you know had played like there was like maybe like you know, 20, 30 people or something that had come to his show, and downstairs there was like a separate room with that like was like a 200 cap room.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:24.480
Yeah, and he like popped his head in there after his set, and the downstairs room was sold out, and he heard the guy on stage, like the kid on stage being like, This is my first show ever.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:35.279
And it's like he's like, I've been doing this for a decade playing shows, and you know, I only had 20 people show up, but this guy puts one song out and he's selling out the venue.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:36.559
Yeah, it's crazy.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:42.240
It is crazy, and it's like I try not to like it's a weird thing because I don't want to knock that.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.880
I think that it's like that's an incredible thing.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:52.480
Like the the internet is so powerful, and if you're doing something that translates, I mean you can you can have a career overnight.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:59.279
Um and I kind of realized at at a certain point that like that wasn't gonna be my path.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:04.559
Like I just don't I mean it's it's possible I could have a moment, like a real viral moment.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:15.440
But I just don't think like mo most of my favorite artists, if not all of them, but didn't build a career on TikTok.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:23.440
Uh I I do think that there's like um there's a certain language, there's a certain way of writing for TikTok.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:34.799
And you start, and I do this too, I'm guilty of it, but thinking of ways to draw in someone and get that like and retain their attention like in for 10, 15 seconds.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:43.680
So you start to write, you try to be a little bit more idiosyncratic or funny or edgy just to be able to capture people on an app.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:55.039
Um and it's it can it definitely it's hard to step away from that and try to make something that's inspired or honest, you know.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:09.039
Yeah, I was gonna say like there's there must be a level of inauthenticity uh that comes from just being so focused on trying to create a viral moment as opposed to writing the song that you want to write and saying what you want to say.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:10.240
Yeah.
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.960
Um I I imagine that that's a really frustrating thing.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:20.799
So, okay, so if if not for TikTok, then like you know, how are people finding new music?
00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.640
That's how I find you know, that's like how I find that's how I found you, right?
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:32.799
Like you were pumping in your room, uh I think it was just maybe a month or so before it came out, and like immediately I was like, oh, this is great.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:34.000
What is happening here?
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.279
I think yeah, I think it's a beautiful song, I think it's brilliantly constructed.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:38.640
Um thank you.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:44.240
And so and but like, you know, had it not been for TikTok, like would I have come across that somewhere else?
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:46.319
I don't I I I don't know, doubtful.
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:47.200
Yeah.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.000
Yeah, I I mean that's that's the thing.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.960
Like, and and there's I I was talking to one of my friends um who is a great songwriter.
00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:03.279
Uh his name's Linus Ablo, and he Recently had something, a song blow up on TikTok.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.920
It's called Say Yes, and he's a great songwriter.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:17.359
Um, but we were talking about how like we're always kind of like poo-pooing the app until it works, and I think it's just it's a very real thing.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.400
Um, because every day I'm posting and it's like, oh, this got 200 views.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:20.960
Fuck this.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.799
Like, no one gives a shit.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.319
But the second that it gets some track, it should be like, what is this song?
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.279
Like, what's going on here?
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:28.640
You're like, oh shit.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:29.759
Yeah, this is cool.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.680
This is really, this is nice.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.079
I find it incredibly entertaining.
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:54.799
Like you said, you're you post a lot, you're very active.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:02.960
Um, but like you're one of the main things you do for anybody who uh hasn't followed you on TikTok, I would highly recommend it.
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:03.839
It's a good follow.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.279
Uh you won't be bored.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:10.880
Um, but you have your song playing in the background, and you're just kind of not really doing anything.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.799
Like usually just kind of like staring at the at the screen or walking around or whatever.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:24.480
And then you have sometimes like a lot of text over the top of the screen, and sometimes it just is completely nonsensical.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:30.720
Sometimes it's like a story that like may or may not be true, which I think is kind of part of the fun.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.559
A lot of it's just kind of like, I don't think this happened, but it could have happened.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.880
Yeah, like where do you come up with with these ideas for like what you're gonna type?
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.599
In my head, you just smoke a fat bowl and start smoking.
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.519
But that's so funny.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.119
It's right because I'm I'm literally, I do not even smoke, so like I'm never up there.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:51.519
These are all these are all very lucid, uh, lucid thoughts that I'm having.
00:24:51.759 --> 00:25:07.200
Uh but I I kind of like spending so much time looking at at the mirage that is TikTok, I was just kind of like, look, nobody really deserves the truth on this app.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.279
This app is just, it's just filled with like it's AI slop.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.000
It's it's it's really it's terrible.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.160
It's terrible for us, it's destroying our brains.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:25.200
And so I just I was kind of just leaning into the absurdity of uh whether it's I mean, there are there are moments of like earnestness where I'll do like a little cultural commentary.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:40.160
Sometimes I'll talk about LA, like I just posted one a couple days ago that I kind of got like a hundred thousand views and talking about how the like being like a hedonist in LA is like the highest form of social capital because nobody it seems like nobody here does anything.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:49.359
I mean, you know, but yet they drive Range Rovers, yeah, like are going out to fancy restaurants and designer bags, and it's like what like what how how what is your life?
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:50.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:26:17.279
And I and I think that that's like sort of the like you go to Beverly Hills, you go to you know, like the West Side, and there's just all these people who are living for like lunch and dinner reservations, and it's it's just like one of the only like I'm I grew up in Maryland where like people work, people go like they they people work hard for for what they have, and like you go to you get up in the morning, you put on a suit, you know, you put on a you put on your your slacks and you and you drive to work.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:22.559
And it's just like out here is kind of this like this hedonistic playground.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.559
Um, and it's it's crazy.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.559
It's it just it's not real life.
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.839
Yeah, and I think you know, uh it's been exacerbated uh post-COVID, right?
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.440
Just like everything, like the work from home stuff, everybody's schedules are kind of different.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:54.079
And that's also kind of part of the culture in LA, is a lot of people like yourself, right, like working uh like service industry jobs or just kind of working odd hours, working whenever they want, especially if they're in that kind of in there, if they're in the entertainment world, sometimes their their work is like, you know, 6 p.m.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:59.039
to midnight because it is going and checking out new artists or going to art galleries or that kind of stuff.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.480
So it is it's a really interesting culture um around here.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:23.119
But it's you know, that's one of the things that was so great about LA when Hollywood was thriving, was that the service was, in my opinion, the best in the world because your your waiter, your bartender, your whatever didn't necessarily know who you were, but they were all trying to make it in Hollywood.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:34.319
And so the last thing they want to do is be impolite or rude or whatever to somebody, and then the next day they go into an audition and there's the fucking casting director that they were a dick to the day before.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.480
And now like things just don't really work like that in LA anymore.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.559
And so I've noticed that the service industry has like really seems to have taken a serious decline.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.519
Oh, 100%.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.720
I I think I think also I think people are just tired.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.640
I think it's like living in in a city like LA, it's so expensive.
00:27:52.960 --> 00:28:05.279
And the people who are who are like who have the the money to go out and and eat all the time at nice restaurants, they're they're so far removed from the the everyman, I think.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.440
Um because the I mean the middle class has been completely decimated.
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:25.440
And I think now there's just this like there's this this really stark uh dichotomy between people who have to work every day and and people who have passive income or you know, have have made it in a sense.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:26.000
Right.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.200
Very much so.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.240
California is heavy on my mind, speaking of LA and California.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:06.960
Um it's got a it's got a real like John Mayer vibe to it, which I like a lot.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.000
Um where where's where did that song come from?
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:19.279
Oh, that was um that was one of those songs that I just I wrote in like you know 15 minutes, and I feel like a lot of the songs come really quickly.
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.480
You know, I try to write every day, I uh but you know, you can't always force those things.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.119
It just felt it just felt good.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:43.680
Um there was very little uh like there was there's very little editing, and I just I kind of wanted to put something out that was uh unpolished, like just something that felt like a like a voice, a voice memo or a demo.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:49.279
And I I recorded it with my friend Michael Cipolletti, who's an amazing bass player and songwriter.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:55.599
Uh at his house we just did two guitar takes and then two uh vocal takes.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:01.920
And then I brought it over to my friend Cameron's studio and we layered some synths and some textures, and that was it.
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:08.640
It was it was just I mean, it's just a song about you know feeling kind of burnt by the city.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:17.839
Um and it's a pretty universal thing, I think, for anyone who comes out here, whether or not they're chasing uh some sort of pipe dream.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:19.359
But yeah.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:21.279
Yeah, I love it.
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.559
I I think I think it's great.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.160
It's been it's been on repeat all week, man.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:25.359
I've really dug it a lot.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.160
Yeah, it's cool.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:39.440
It is, it's it's definitely a little bit uh, like you said, less polished, I think is a good way to put it, but it's still definitely my it fits within you know the the sonic category of of the rest of your music.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:50.480
Um we're speaking of uh one of the questions I asked you in the in the pre-interview email uh was your main influences, which it was I your in your answer was interesting because it was a little bit all over the board.
00:30:50.559 --> 00:31:00.240
You said Slystone, yes, um, and then Elliot Smith, which those two artists really couldn't be much more different from each other, yeah.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:05.599
And then Phil Linet, who I I assume you're talking about the thin Lizzie Phil Lynet?
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:09.680
Yeah, yeah, um, which again very different than those other two.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:16.400
So, like how how do all those different influences uh impact the music that you're making?
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:24.799
So I think I mean I I was listening to uh uh this James Blake interview, because he just put out a new record, which is amazing.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:36.079
He's also one of my favorites, but um he was talking about how he believes that everyone sort of is put on this earth with the same like more or less the same uh abilities.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.519
If they work hard at something, you know, they can get good at it, whether it's music or it's something else.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.519
But really the way to make good music is to tap into like the spirit.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:52.960
It's how it's how you like how you can harness whatever that thing is.
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:58.480
It's not like rooted in some sort of empirical skill set.
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:11.440
And I think all of those people in their own way did that really effectively and created sort of a sound that that hadn't existed before.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:17.839
I think Sly was sort of the blueprint for he was the blueprint for R ⁇ B music even today.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:25.279
Like he was he was the blueprint for Prince, for for Michael, for like everything after, and it was just all him.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:33.039
And um even his like production choices, the way he would like pan a guitar that was just like doing something purely rhythmic.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.720
It would it had so much so much character and so much feel.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:58.240
Um and uh you know, someone like Elliot Smith kind of made the like he was playing in all these heavy bands in the 90s and he was in a real scene, and then he pulls up with an acoustic guitar and and captivates audiences, yeah, like people dead silent and as he's like whispering into a microphone.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:05.680
I mean, there's something so like almost like voyeuristic about about the way about watching him perform.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:31.440
It's you feel like you shouldn't be, the way there's something like and and I and I love that about about Elliot Smith and that he kind of took the acoustic guitar, which was sort of at the time like not a really cool thing, in the mid-90s when there was all this grunge and all this post punk happening, and he he was able to do something that that captivated people who were like in the scene.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:52.160
Um and and Phil and I from Thin Lizzie, I've just been listening to a bunch of their early records, and like he also was like he could write an incredible song on the acoustic guitar and then just write them like just make the most incredible, like spirited full band arrangement.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:57.759
Um that song Cowboy Song, I don't know if you've ever heard that, but it's one of my all-time favorite songs.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.559
It's a great song.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:03.359
Then Lizzie's uh incredibly underrated band, agreed, in my opinion, yeah.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:03.759
Agreed.
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:05.359
Very underrated.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:11.760
You're you know how Spotify gives you like fans of this artist also like these bands.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:18.000
So I was looking at yours today, um, and I was just wondering if you were familiar with any of them, if you had thoughts on any of them.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:24.239
Uh there are Adam Henderson, uh, Dressworm, Tiger's Eye, Eden Joel, Ranger.
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:25.679
Do you know any of these?
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:30.079
Oh, um, I know Eden Joel.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:36.880
We follow each other on Instagram, and he's I think he's signed to Big Loud or the record label.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.079
I was doing some uh writing with someone on the publishing side from from that record label.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:45.599
Uh his music's great.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:46.880
Love Eden Joel's stuff.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.320
So out of all of the ones that I listed, that's the only one I'm familiar with, too.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.840
And yeah, I I would I would agree.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:52.880
I think his stuff is great.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:53.679
He's great.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:54.480
He's really great.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.400
Um I think he's super young too.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.880
He's like he's really, really talented.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:01.119
I think he's gonna he's gonna blow up for sure.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:02.159
Yeah.
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:02.480
Yeah.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:12.559
It's just I always think that's interesting because like sometimes you go look through those artists and it's like you know, it like makes sense, and then some of them like don't seem to make sense at all.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:22.719
So I was just curious as to if you had if you had dove into many of those catalogs just to see what else was kind of what other other like fans of your music, the other stuff that they were into.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:37.199
Yeah, it's funny because I think that right now, like I have such a small listener base that I don't I I think that like every time I release a song that changes the the like recommended or people also listen to section.
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:44.800
Um so I mean, yeah, I I should probably listen to some of these other other groups.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.400
Maybe I'll do that after we get off this uh yeah, yeah, this call.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:49.119
Let me know.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:53.360
Let me know if you come across any that I should uh I should check out, or maybe I'll maybe I'll do that too.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.840
Yeah.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:02.800
Um you seem to have um a lot of confidence in in yourself and in the music that you make.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:21.840
And I don't mean that in like you don't come across arrogant at all, but you seem to like be confident about the music you're releasing in a way that I think a lot of people seem to have maybe some imposter syndrome, whether they should or not, or just you know, some I think normal self-consciousness or self-doubts.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.239
Is that first of all, is that true?
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:29.280
And second of all, are you um if so, like what where does that come from?
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:48.000
Um I I think that the like uncertainty in yourself and in your music, especially if you're playing live, it's just like the it's the worst possible thing that you can sort of give out to the audience.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:52.960
Like I think it's like it's sort of infectious if you're uncertain about it, they will be too.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:06.000
And um I I kind of I I definitely I'm I'm it took me a long time to be like happy or just satisfied with the work that I'm doing.
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.320
Uh, it's never going to be perfect.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:16.639
And there are things that whenever I listen to the stuff that I put out, I've got like an infinite number of notes at things that I would change.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:30.400
Um, but the thing about making music is like you cannot like you cannot think about those things because you will never get anything done if you're if you're just like bound to perfection.
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:30.800
Right.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.039
Um and I think for so long I didn't put out music because I was waiting for it to be perfect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:43.199
And I I just at this point it like you can't you can't sweat those like little things all the time.
00:37:43.360 --> 00:38:02.239
I want I want the stuff to sound great, I want people to love it, but also I can't get hung up on every little creative choice or like maybe like just a in like yeah, I guess it's it's a matter of doing stuff in a in an efficient way to get to where I want to be.
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:03.760
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:16.800
Yeah, I've I've heard a number of people saying that people are going to be longing for a little bit more imperfection in their music because you know, with AI, like everything can just be perfect automatically.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:33.199
Um and so in order to I guess ensure that it's human-made and authentic, people are gonna be looking for stuff that is you know that it has some blemishes and um maybe isn't exactly to the beat or isn't exactly perfect.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:34.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:52.880
But all I think that's like that's why like people I think ultimately people are listening to music for its imperfection, for the human elements, whether it's like I mean, you know, take like live performance, for example.
00:38:53.039 --> 00:39:03.760
Like you can never you can never get uh you know, like an AI hologram to to do the same thing that like a person on stage with a with a guitar or a band would do.
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:16.719
And I think that like even even the idea of of a of a song uh that you know and and love, and you like you know, you go see the band play live, and it sounds a little different, you know.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:17.840
At least it should.
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:34.000
I think that like live like the the issue too now with a lot of bands is that they're you know they've got playback, they're running tracks on top of the music because modern production has become so uh like detailed, and there's so many elements to hold your attention.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:42.320
So trying to do that same thing with just a like an acoustic guitar or a four-piece band, it's it's not gonna hit the same.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:52.559
And I kind of think that there's a responsibility as an artist to like not to just try to make it sound like the recording, you know.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:04.960
And I think that like it's it's important to give people like the essence of the song without without having every single like little pad and synth that's pre-recorded, um, or like these vocal stacks.
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:14.159
Sometimes you'll go to a show and there's these like 12, 15 harmony stacks on top of the vocalist voice, and it's just it's not like that's not a live show, right?
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.360
You know, yeah.
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.079
Um I could have just listened to the album at home.
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:19.760
Like, yeah, 100%.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:21.199
That's yeah.
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:22.719
Exactly.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.960
Um, speaking of playing live shows, you are playing in May at the Airliner Bar.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:29.360
Yeah.
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:30.639
Is that where is that?
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.280
Downtown?
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.760
That's yeah, it's like it's kind of Lincoln Heights.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.559
Um okay.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:35.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:36.880
So pretty close to downtown.
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:38.320
It's a great, a great venue.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.840
I've played there before.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:40.719
What is it?
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.239
You're playing with a full band too?
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:43.679
I'm gonna do full band, yeah.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:45.760
It's part of a it hasn't been announced yet.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.639
I don't even know who else is on the bill, but I'm on uh it's it's for Rock Knight LA.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.800
The last section of the podcast is called Final Spin.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:54.480
It's just like rapid fire questions.
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:56.079
First thing that comes to mind.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:00.960
Um, if you could share a stage with any artist living or dead, who would it be?
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.280
Oh man, that's so insane.
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:04.559
It's such a good question.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.880
Um, Peter Gabriel.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:08.559
Oh, that's a cool answer.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.760
What was the first album you owned that was just yours?
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:13.920
What's going on, Marvin Gay?
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.599
They're making a biopic about your life.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:19.199
Who's playing the lead role?
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.440
James Spader.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.559
It's a cool yeah.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.320
Uh his role in the office is still, I think, incredibly underwhelmed.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.679
California is unbelievable.
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.360
One of my all-time favorite characters.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:33.760
Yes.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:35.360
So good.
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:35.760
Yeah.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.440
Um, is there an artist or band that you love that people might be surprised by?
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:45.840
I would say Show Me the Body, which is like a hardcore band from New York, love them, or Freddie Gibbs, the rapper.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:47.840
He's like one of my favorite artists of all time.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.400
Like I would love to work with him.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:51.920
He's like a dream collaborator.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:52.639
Nice.
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:59.199
And then the final question is who's an artist with less than 100,000 monthly listeners on Spotify that you think people should be listening to?
00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:02.239
Oh, there's so many, so many.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:07.199
Um I would say Armlock, this band from the UK.
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:20.079
They're they've been pretty consistently for the last few years, but like one of my most listened to bands, but it's super stripped-down, sort of uh alternative pop rock.
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:24.960
They're they're very reminiscent of this band pinback from the 90s, early 2000s.
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:31.760
Umlock is, they've got like 24,000 monthlies, and they're incredible.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:32.559
Cool.
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:33.760
Cool, cool, cool.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:35.199
I'm excited to check them out.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.159
Um, dude, I'm so glad we finally got to do this, man.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.599
I don't, I don't know.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.119
I it's probably on me.
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:46.960
Uh I think you were actually one of the first people I reached out to when I like even had the idea for doing this podcast.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:54.239
And then for some reason I got it in my head that like you didn't want to do it, but like I don't know like what I I invented that in my head, I think.
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.880
Yeah, no, I don't it was I think it was more maybe it was a timing thing, but I was super stoked.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:43:59.840
I I love what you're doing.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.159
And I I'm so happy to I'm happy to finally get to do this with you.
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:12.719
Yeah, it's so great to finally connect because like we've sent I don't know how many dozens of messages and I like I know your sense of humor just based on the TikToks you research.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.480
So I like I'll come across stuff and I'm just like, oh, American Fraternity will like this.
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:17.760
Like I didn't even know your names.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.559
No, I'm just like I'm just great.
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.920
I'm so glad we finally got to make it happen.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:33.280
American Fraternity is playing as part of Rock Knight LA on May 13th, and I will see you there.
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.480
American Fraternity is also a really fun follow on TikTok, so I encourage you to follow him.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:42.880
While you're there, go ahead, follow the first spin socials at firstspin podcast.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:47.920
If there's someone you think I should check out, please email me at firstspinpod at gmail.com.
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:50.400
Also, I release a new playlist every Sunday.
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:58.239
It's a mix of new songs by old artists, old songs by new artists, first spin alum, future first bin guests, whatever is vibing that week.
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.159
And there will definitely be some American fraternity on there this week.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:08.320
You can find uh this week's playlist on Spotify and Apple Music under First Spin Week of 41326.
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.840
Happy birthday, Matt.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:11.199
That is all for this week.
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:12.239
Thank you for listening.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:13.199
And you know what?
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:14.559
Send this to your mom.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:16.159
I think she's gonna like it.
