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00:00:11.519The front line of policing is loud, but the voices behind it, you know, they're a lot louder and I think, frankly, a lot more interesting.
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00:00:15.039Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke, and this is First Response.
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00:00:27.359This is the uh number one podcast that takes you behind the badge and uncovers real stories and experiences of first responders from all walks of life and the topics that shape public safety today.
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00:00:36.000If you're curious about the guy or the gal behind the hero, and they are indeed truly heroes, and the topics that they care about, take a listen.
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00:00:42.719This is kind of your front row seat to hearing some of the really interesting voices out there and more importantly, the heroes.
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00:00:47.359This podcast is sponsored by Pepperball, where I have the honor to serve as CEO.
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00:00:53.840Pepperball creates unlethal alternatives to guns at least used to keep themselves and the public safe.
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00:00:56.799Good morning.
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00:01:00.960It's um a really interesting topic today.
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00:01:06.560Um super excited to have Deputy Chief McDowell Jr.
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00:01:09.280from the CMHA.
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00:01:17.439Now, the CMHA, we gotta get this right, is the um oh gosh, Ms.
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00:01:18.480Chief, I've already forgotten.
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00:01:18.959What is it?
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00:01:19.680Cuaga?
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00:01:20.879Cuyahoga.
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00:01:23.680Yes, Cuyahoga.
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00:01:28.079Metropolitan Housing Authority.
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00:01:33.920Um, this is actually uh one of the oldest, if I think it is the oldest housing authority in the United States.
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00:01:36.000It was established in 1933.
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00:01:43.840It's it serves over 55,000 residents um in the greater kind of downtown Cleveland uh area.
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00:01:47.120Um super interesting.
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00:02:11.680Um Deputy Chief McDowell uh is in effect managing or with along with the chief, manages this um 60-person police department that um works in conjunction with um the Cleveland Police Department in terms of providing safety and security to this housing um this housing um authority.
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00:02:31.439Um Chief McDowell, by the way, super experienced, 26 years in law enforcement, um, and the last 11 in kind of a command position, um, came through the uh the Chicago uh Chicago, the Cleveland uh police department um on his way into this role.
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00:02:40.879So uh, you know, I didn't even know that um housing authorities had their own police um um authority or police department.
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00:02:42.240How does that work?
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00:02:45.199Does that supersede the Cleveland police department?
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00:02:46.319Do you work in conjunction?
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00:02:48.639Kind of, you know, who takes the calls?
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00:02:50.479How does that how does it all work?
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00:02:51.280All right.
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00:02:55.680So it's an honor to be uh to to have this conversation with you today.
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00:03:03.199And uh so what happens is, you know, we are what's called a resident-driven police department.
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00:03:15.520So what that means is that, you know, nearly 50 plus years ago, the residents of the CMHA police department decided that uh they wanted their own police department.
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00:03:23.039So there were steps taken to uh enact laws and legislation that would allow the police department to form.
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00:03:34.560And so, along with that, present day, uh we're called the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority because we exist throughout the county uh in the state of Ohio.
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00:03:47.039So we do have properties that are primarily in the city of Cleveland, but also in other uh first-ring suburbs such as Cleveland Heights, East Cleveland, uh, City of Berea, uh, as well as Oakwood Village.
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00:03:58.639So typically we have concurrent jurisdiction in those communities, and ultimately uh we also manage our own dispatch center, which most of the calls are routed through our dispatch center.
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00:04:03.520From there, our officers are dispatched, but in some situations, other municipalities may respond.
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00:04:09.439But in most cases, uh we are the primary law enforcement authority on all of our properties.
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00:04:11.120Interesting.
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00:04:16.480And so um, just out of interest, um can you provide mutual aid to Cleveland?
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00:04:16.959Um, please.
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00:04:19.120They are our partners.
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00:04:21.920Uh I mean, we work alongside with the U.S.
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00:04:28.639Marshall Task Force, FBI, uh, our municipal partners, we also work with our social service partners.
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00:04:40.720You know, I can best describe our organization as a model of service-oriented policing because we recognize to best serve our population, uh, you know, we can't work in silos.
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00:04:49.199So, yes, we do have concurrent jurisdictions and we work with other partners, but for us, it's really about uh having a service orientation first.
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00:05:18.639You know, it's interesting to me, um, and it it's what I think makes um US policing uh really special, certainly special and unique around the world, is um that um each um group of, you know, each um group of residents, as you would say, each um group of citizens um can form their own community and then and then can form their own police department.
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00:05:21.360And that's why we have 18,000 agencies.
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00:05:51.600It's uh kind of as a shout out to uh July 4th, it is, you know, the the the minutem, the militia that were established initially to fight the English turned into local police forces, and then that history has you know pervaded such that every community gets its its right and its choice to pick its own police and and it the own rules and kind of uh kind of way it operates um uh from a kind of a cultural perspective and from a local understanding.
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00:05:57.439So that the Metropolitan Housing Authority would choose to do that makes perfect sense.
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00:06:06.959In that context, is is how you police different than um what you experienced when you were um in on the Cleveland Police Department?
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00:06:22.800So uh so one thing is so I came up to the Park District Police where I spent the majority of my career, and I actually transitioned here about seven years ago to take on the role as the deputy chief of police to support the existing chief.
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00:06:28.959But here's what I'll tell you most people have a misconception about working in this environment.
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00:06:34.480The first is we provide our residents with what we call above baseline services.
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00:06:40.160I would tell you our residents probably get better service than what you get in the average uh suburban community.
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00:06:50.319But for the most part, uh, you know, we we are primarily responsible for responding to uh a variety of calls that occur.
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00:06:57.199We have our own detective bureau that that manages roughly about 1,500 felony cases annually.
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00:07:00.000We have a part-time SWAT team.
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00:07:03.759Uh so you know, we have members on Federal Task Force.
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00:07:08.959So we make sure that that we are able to respond to a number of calls that may come in.
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00:07:32.720And uh well, and uh to to build on that, uh I saw in a in an old more of a historic report that you had 2,400 serious crimes a year, 20% of those domestic violence, another 8% um felony or felonious assault, as it's called.
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00:07:39.680Um is that is that uh is that um more than average, less than average?
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00:07:45.680Is that a is that uh uh change how you have to do policing in that in that community?
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00:07:48.399Well, I'll tell you, we're in the people business.
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00:07:59.600And if you look at crime on a national average right now, I'd probably say, you know, crimes against persons, especially domestic partnerships, um, they're probably up both nationally.
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00:08:04.879That's probably our biggest challenge right now, uh, because you know we're in we're in a people service business.
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00:08:17.759So I'm not exactly sure what the what the national average is, but I can tell you on a regular basis, it doesn't exactly change the way we police, but we are more mindful, especially in the city of Rittman.
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00:08:21.839Uh a police sergeant was recently killed responding to a domestic incident.
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00:08:30.160So we are very we pay attention to those national trends where officers are most likely to uh encounter violence.
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00:08:32.639We train for those incidents.
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00:08:41.440Uh we regularly regularly just look at our officers' performance to make sure that they're adhering to policy, the training, and the community standards.
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00:08:50.320So for us, it's not so much about changing, but it's more so evaluating and ensuring that we are providing the service that our residents expect.
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00:09:11.840We talk a lot up on this podcast um about the changing nature of policing and how um you know 20, 30 years ago, uh domestic violence as an example, or mental health challenges were not a big part of policing.
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00:09:31.840And now they really are, um, and that officers um are now trained in de-escalation, trained in a lot of of areas that you know you wouldn't have normally expected um a young police officer to come in and and and have to learn and have to be able to deal with.
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00:09:34.879Uh that that has to be a challenge.
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00:09:47.519Um, I mean, the like and I guess to some degree you've adjusted how you do your training and how you do your your kind of evaluations so that they're better prepared for those kinds of situations.
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00:09:49.519You know, it's funny you brought this up.
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00:09:56.559I was recently uh responding to a couple LinkedIn posts about recruitment for the profession.
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00:10:05.679You know, given the fact that the average person who comes into this profession has a high school diploma, they're between the age of probably 21 and 28 years of age.
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00:10:09.440Policing sometimes is their first professional job.
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00:10:19.600So the bigger challenge is for people, you know, executives like myself is we have to adjust our views and how we've approached the job.
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00:10:36.879Whereas, you know, I think the expectation is similar, but at the same time, you know, especially when it comes to dealing with mental health and all the other social issues that that come up in in society, no one has been able to remove police out of it.
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00:10:54.320Everyone has come up with ideas with expanded response with social workers, but I can tell you from my experience uh social workers are willing to help, but you still need the police to validate whether or not it's safe enough for a social worker to respond.
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00:11:00.399And then there are many cases where you still need the police to transport the person once a determination is made.
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00:11:03.039So all of those factors come into play.
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00:11:13.440But what's most important, you know, when it comes to ensuring that your staff are meeting their goals, is it's not about being punitive, but this is a very challenging job.
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00:11:24.240And so when you consider all that is expected of an officer today, they need more support and guidance and uh less criticism from their superiors.
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00:11:26.399Yeah, no, I I I agree.
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00:11:39.840Um tell the all I wanted to tell the audience that uh Chief McDowell uh has a master's degree in psychology, which is uh more you know, more rare than not in terms of the folks that I talk to.
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00:11:40.879Congratulations.
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00:12:02.879Um you think about the psychology of policing, um, if you think of the the folks, the officers on your on your force, my guess, and again, I don't I can't statistically tell you this, but my guess is that they see more domestic violence um um outcalls than the average police officer.
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00:12:12.399Does that psychologically does that make them better at being more empathetic, or does it make them over time more hardened to the situation?
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00:12:14.320Or is it both?
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00:12:18.720Well, I can tell you this is a very, very challenging environment.
00:12:18.960 -->
00:12:26.879Oftentimes it's not what they see, it's their inability to help or do more that becomes more challenging for the officer.
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00:12:31.679Because at the end of the day, most of the people who come into this profession, they're here to serve.
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00:12:41.279So when you see kids who experience violence, uh, when you see domestic abuse, which is up, uh, you you always want to offer more.
00:12:41.360 -->
00:12:48.639And that's probably more challenging than just what officers experience, but also don't want to leave out our dispatchers.
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00:12:54.159Our dispatchers are first contact for many of these requests for police services.
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00:13:02.639These are individuals who are calling in because they're frustrated, they're screaming, they want an officer now, they don't want to hear an officer will be there when one's available.
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00:13:10.159So it's also important for us where we could give consideration to the fact that that dispatcher doesn't always know the outcome.
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00:13:11.600They don't get to take a break.
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00:13:16.879They don't get to just sit in their car or or or go to go to a local restaurant, have a bite to eat.
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00:13:20.159They're stuck in a room for 12 plus hours.
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00:13:25.360So you take into account all of the staff who have to address these concerns.
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00:13:26.879It is very much challenging.
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00:13:33.440And that's why officer, I would say anyone who's working in public safety wellness has to be a top priority.
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00:13:37.600You know, Deputy Chief, uh, you bring up a great point.
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00:13:51.279Um, and and it and it's a it's a kind of a miss on my part not to have had more um of the 911 um folks on this um uh first response podcast.
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00:14:18.000Because to your point, I I hadn't thought about it until you said that they sit for 12 hours straight and they hear, I mean, it's maybe it's even more challenging because they effectively they hear the the the worst day in everyone's life and they and they don't have a chance to solve it, and they um, or at least they don't, and they in many cases they probably it uh they don't have the time to find out whatever happened in that sense.
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00:14:24.159It's almost like they feel the stress of the community 12 hours a day.
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00:14:26.080Absolutely.
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00:14:31.440And and you know, the other part about our environment is all of our calls aren't always you know violence.
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00:14:43.039We do get calls for you know loud music, um, you know, dumping complaints, uh, any general municipal police call, you know, we still feel those calls.
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00:14:49.360Our officers are still making traffic stops, you know, trying to advance public safety in and around our facilities.
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00:14:53.360So uh so there's a lot that absolutely goes on.
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00:15:02.320But what I'm most proud of is that when I get a chance to go out in the community, I hear the kids call our officers by name.
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00:15:11.120I hear the kids or the residents say, I may not know the officer, but I see that him or her uh in the area often.
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00:15:24.320All those things build trust because at the end of the day, when we talk about community, I think one of the most misused words is we separate those public servants as if they're not a part of the community.
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00:15:28.159But you got to figure the average officer is working 12 to 16 hours a day.
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00:15:33.200They are very much a part of this community as the people who own businesses here and who live here.
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00:15:34.879No, for sure.
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00:15:44.159And and to your point, they got in the business to serve, they got in the business because they have a big heart, they got in the business to to uh to to serve their community.
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00:15:48.960Um uh I and I'm gonna come back to that trust piece in a second.
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00:15:54.720But I but given your degree in psychology, I'm gonna I'm gonna um lean on you, so to speak.
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00:16:07.360This this notion of, and I hadn't thought about it before, but this notion of yeah it's it's it's tough enough to see the the trauma and to see the the hardship.
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00:16:21.840Um I hadn't thought about it, but the fact that in many cases you walk away knowing that you, you know, that in effect that you haven't really fixed the situation because it wasn't, you know, it's it's well beyond your power to fix.
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00:16:26.399That must be take its cumulative toll on the person.
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00:16:27.279It does.
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00:16:31.600And I want to circle back to what you asked about the police assisted referral program.
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00:16:39.120You know, this program has been in existence uh thanks to our chief, uh Chief Gonzalez, who was a pioneer of this program.
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00:16:46.799He put the police assisted program in place because he wanted to have a mechanism to really assist people in a way in a meaningful way.
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00:16:48.080I want you to think about this.
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00:16:56.720You think about if you've personally experienced a tragedy or you've lost a loved one, it's common for people to say, call me if you need me.
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00:17:07.200Most people, the average person doesn't have time to tell their family and friends exactly what they need when they're grieving or they're going through a difficult time.
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00:17:17.599Common policing historically says that when you have a victim of a crime, you give them a sheet of paper with a bunch of numbers that if you need anything, you call these people.
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00:17:20.160Most people don't call, and here's why.
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00:17:24.799They are so involved in their grief that they don't have time to figure out what they need.
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00:17:28.240So the police assisted program is based on experience.
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00:17:47.279So experience suggests that based on the officer's experience and the nature of the call that they're dealing with, they make the referral to our social service partners, and the social service partners reach will reach out to the family and say, here are our available resources based on the officer's referral.
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00:17:50.880You can either take advantage of those resources or not.
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00:17:53.599But it's not left up to you to figure it out.
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00:17:55.920That's what makes this program unique.
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00:17:58.240But it's but let me let me correct myself.
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00:18:05.519It's not a program, it's a part of our culture because it doesn't work if your agency doesn't have a service orientation.
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00:18:14.000If it's if this is something you just say to people, they're not going to trust that what you're saying is actually uh a valuable resource.
00:18:14.160 -->
00:18:18.319But for us, it truly is the way that that we serve our residents.
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00:18:25.920And it is our avenue of ensuring that they have the opportunity to get those resources they need after a tragedy.
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00:18:37.119This uh par police assisted referrals is something that that I have not um um uh talked about or I haven't been educated about.
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00:18:39.519Tell me actually how it works on an actual call.
00:18:39.680 -->
00:18:41.359Give me a kind of a real life situation.
00:18:41.680 -->
00:18:43.279So I'm gonna give you an example.
00:18:43.440 -->
00:18:46.400Let's say uh, you know, domestic violence.
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00:18:47.599We you brought up domestic violence.
00:18:47.680 -->
00:18:49.440Let's say domestic violence, for example.
00:18:49.599 -->
00:18:56.720So a domestic violence victim, whether they're a man or woman or other, they have the opportunity, number one, to get emergency housing.
00:18:56.880 -->
00:18:59.119Uh, that information is afforded to them.
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00:19:16.000We also make sure that in order to get that process moving forward, we get the officers will ensure that they have the police report number and explain to them the process to obtain a copy, should they need it, to actually move forward getting emergency housing.
00:19:16.160 -->
00:19:29.440But in addition to that, uh, along with the victims' right forms, we give them some information to let them know that we have a partnership with one of the organizations would be Beach Brook, which is a social service organization.
00:19:29.680 -->
00:19:49.759The police report is forwarded to the social service organization to make sure that they have the backstory on the family, uh, ensuring they have the correct information, then they'll reach out and they'll say, well, hey, based on the age of your kids and what you're going through, um, if you need food or other resources, I'm going to be the one to help walk you through that process.
00:19:49.920 -->
00:19:57.039So you don't have to start making a bunch of phone calls and trying to figure out how do you move forward through your challenging situation.
00:19:57.279 -->
00:19:58.240That's the difference.
00:19:58.319 -->
00:20:08.079And that's actually a difference maker as opposed to saying there are 10 numbers on here, call someone and hope that you get someone on the other line.
00:20:08.319 -->
00:20:11.200This is a direct connect to services.
00:20:11.759 -->
00:20:24.880So it's uh it's it's a uh let me get you on the phone and let's get this sorted and let me be there to walk you through the resources you need as opposed to call me if you need help.
00:20:25.200 -->
00:20:25.680Correct.
00:20:25.839 -->
00:20:38.480And historically, most people, the average person, I do this conversation, I have this conversation with with different people all the time and always ask, you know, when you had a when you had a family tragedy in your life, and all your friends and family say, call me if you need me.
00:20:38.559 -->
00:20:39.839I said, How many people call?
00:20:40.000 -->
00:20:44.480I'd probably say 99.9% of the people say they don't call.
00:20:44.880 -->
00:20:49.119And the people who make those statements, they are very much well-intentioned.
00:20:49.759 -->
00:20:54.640But even if someone calls, and once they do make the call, are you really in a position to help?
00:20:54.799 -->
00:20:58.000Well, we try to we try to be the answer for those individuals.
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00:20:59.200That's fantastic.
00:20:59.359 -->
00:21:10.400I think and I've what I've I the from at least the background of uh the material or the work I've done, it's um 7,000 um folks have taken advantage of that over the years.
00:21:10.799 -->
00:21:11.759Over the years, yes.
00:21:12.160 -->
00:21:23.920What a fantastic um um capability, uh Mark, uh, and uh and and and kind of hats off to Chief Gonzalez for did he develop this himself?
00:21:24.079 -->
00:21:33.119Did he actually create he came up with the idea along with uh a few social worker friends of his, and we have been the pioneer for this program.
00:21:33.200 -->
00:21:57.200Now, there are a number of programs that exist around the country that really work, but what I can tell you is our approach is really unique, but it still comes back to what really matters is you have to hire the right people for the work that we do with the understanding that at the end of the day, this badge that we have it carries a great deal of authority and influence.
00:21:57.359 -->
00:21:59.759So we try to use it to influence people in a more popular.
00:22:01.680 -->
00:22:03.440No, it's fantastic.
00:22:03.680 -->
00:22:19.200Um, I did notice, and maybe it's why, based off Chief Gonzalez and your leadership, is that you're one of the first housing authorities to have uh achieved CALIA certification, which I've heard about, I don't really understand.
00:22:19.279 -->
00:22:23.119And you just got your ninth um re-accreditation in 2024.
00:22:23.839 -->
00:22:25.359What is what is CALIA?
00:22:25.680 -->
00:22:30.880And and does it, you know, is this like ISO 9000 for us on the business side?
00:22:31.039 -->
00:22:40.480Is it a lot of paperwork or is it something more and I don't mean to be diminutive about that, but is it more than just paperwork and certification?
00:22:40.720 -->
00:22:41.039What is it?
00:22:42.559 -->
00:23:02.400So CALIA is a national accreditation process, and it's an opportunity for uh the CALIA assessors, which are typically chiefs from from someplace else in the country, they evaluate your policies and your standards and to make sure that you're actually achieving those standards.
00:23:02.640 -->
00:23:13.599And as part of the process, you have to ensure that you're you're constantly updating your policies and your training against uh what's suggested, which are suggested best practices as well.
00:23:13.839 -->
00:23:19.119But here in Ohio, we have another governing body called the Ohio Collaborative.
00:23:19.279 -->
00:23:22.480So they work kind of in partnership with one another.
00:23:22.720 -->
00:23:40.799So it ensures that the standards for Ohio police officers are also being met, which are primarily around those high liability uh policies like your pursuit policy, your use of force policy, your early intervention policy, but most importantly, your training is ensuring that you're keeping up with all of that.
00:23:40.960 -->
00:23:43.200So it's a very rigorous process.
00:23:43.359 -->
00:23:54.000Uh we're pretty much evaluated probably about every other year, uh, whether it's an on-site visit or they're evaluating our policies electronically.
00:23:54.160 -->
00:24:03.680It is the gold standard of law enforcement, and we've been able to achieve accreditation consistently uh because of the great work of our staff and our leadership.
00:24:04.160 -->
00:24:22.640So the typical resident wouldn't feel any different one way or the other in the context of having the certification, but what it it shows itself in the form of all of the processes that you use to create a better quality of training, a better quality of service.
00:24:22.720 -->
00:24:24.319So they'll see it in that context.
00:24:24.559 -->
00:24:25.440Yeah, they'll see it.
00:24:25.519 -->
00:24:33.920And it actually does matter to the residents because one thing is they want to know that their police department is is consistent with uh best practices.
00:24:34.079 -->
00:24:43.200They want to know that their police department is innovative, they want to know that we are doing uh what we are, what we always, what I always call is what we agree to do.
00:24:43.359 -->
00:24:49.519And but but but the other thing is agencies do not have to participate in the accreditation process.
00:24:49.680 -->
00:25:00.480So we voluntarily invite um this process as a means of maintaining trust uh and legitimacy uh uh for what we do.
00:25:03.759 -->
00:25:09.279That you raise that that word trust would uh I wanted to go back now.
00:25:09.599 -->
00:25:30.400Um the again, as a subject matter expert in psychology and human psychology, uh the notion of trust between the community and the police, as we've I've discussed in many, many of these episodes, um unfortunately that trust has eroded it.
00:25:30.480 -->
00:25:40.960I think uh less than half of Americans believe that um the the police in kind of in general is can be trusted.
00:25:41.039 -->
00:25:54.480Um so more people distrust the police than than trust them, which I think is a very sad commentating uh commentating or commentary, I should say, um, on what's happened over the last 20 years.
00:25:54.720 -->
00:26:06.079Tell me from your experience, what um what are the factors that have eroded that trust and what are the things that you and your department are doing to try to rebuild that trust?
00:26:06.400 -->
00:26:10.799Well, here's what I'm gonna tell you from from my professional perspective on the word trust.
00:26:10.880 -->
00:26:19.119I think it's the most overused word and the most misunderstood word when it comes to public safety.
00:26:19.519 -->
00:26:31.039And I say that in the sense that you you quoted statistics, but those statistics are based upon those people who chose to answer those particular questions.
00:26:31.119 -->
00:26:34.880But trust foundationally is the heart of everything that we do.
00:26:35.039 -->
00:26:39.839I need my staff to trust me first before I can get the community to trust me.
00:26:40.640 -->
00:26:47.200The staff have to trust my leadership, they have to trust my vision, they have to trust that I'm going to be consistent first.
00:26:47.839 -->
00:26:52.480Now, when I do this well, then we get the other part in the community right.
00:26:52.640 -->
00:26:55.359Now, let me define trust for me operationally.
00:26:55.599 -->
00:27:02.880Trust is that I am doing what I agreed to do and I am building an emotional connection to the work of service.
00:27:03.279 -->
00:27:09.440Now, I will say when people say they don't trust the police, that's a true statement for that individual.
00:27:09.839 -->
00:27:24.160But if we really had to peel the layers back in the conversation around trust, most people, the good percentage of people, they know that they they need the police to maintain social order.
00:27:24.640 -->
00:27:29.519But it's not that people don't trust the police, and then we even have to break down who are those people.
00:27:29.680 -->
00:27:49.599But it's just there are key moments in where trust are eroded, specifically when it comes to maybe dealing with mental health, because some people may feel that police officers aren't trained or credible enough to make those decisions, specifically when it comes to use of forced incidents where it results in a serious injury or death.
00:27:49.839 -->
00:27:57.039There are few people who may have a lack of trust because you're talking about having the authority to take someone's life.
00:27:57.440 -->
00:28:11.519But I will tell you it is the greatest challenge, but it is also the greatest opportunity because our responsibility as public servants is to model trust, but we also have to extend trust first.
00:28:12.720 -->
00:28:18.240See, it's not something that you just demand, it's something that you have to extend.
00:28:18.480 -->
00:28:21.359And here's what I take total responsibility of.
00:28:21.440 -->
00:28:23.039This is why I love the profession.
00:28:23.200 -->
00:28:37.279This is why I love these conversations, is because I get to have a conversation about what trust really is and what our responsibility is when we extend trust, because oftentimes people really don't have an understanding of what it means, especially in a hostile situation.
00:28:37.519 -->
00:28:50.000What we try to train our officers is that that is your opportunity to give that person an experience that they least expect by slowing it down and listening more and talking less.
00:28:50.319 -->
00:28:59.359But trust really comes from, if we go back to the accreditation, you go back to your mission and vision, are you really doing the things that you said you would do?
00:28:59.519 -->
00:29:01.759And I can tell you, I work in an urban environment.
00:29:01.920 -->
00:29:08.799It is one of the poorest communities in the top three cities in the United States, mostly African American and other.
00:29:09.359 -->
00:29:12.720I've worked in suburban communities, I've worked in other police departments.
00:29:12.799 -->
00:29:24.480But here's what I'll tell you in the seven years that I've been, it's been the greatest surprise because more people in this environment will show appreciation to officers here than I have in other communities.
00:29:24.640 -->
00:29:31.200And I get to tell that story when I get to on platforms like this and in other places.
00:29:31.440 -->
00:29:33.759Because most people would think it's the opposite.
00:29:34.000 -->
00:29:37.599But people who live and work down here will tell you it is challenging.
00:29:37.680 -->
00:29:50.240Don't get me wrong, and I'm not being naive, but more often than not, the story that's not being told is our officers are told thank you and we appreciate you more often than people are sharing those other stories.
00:29:50.880 -->
00:30:13.680Well, no, and I think that's you know, that is the challenge with social media, the challenge with um, to your point, these generic uh surveys, they um they they they unin well either intentionally or unintentionally cast um um an incorrect light um generically, and then in this case on policing.
00:30:13.839 -->
00:30:15.039And I couldn't agree with you more.
00:30:15.279 -->
00:30:21.599I what I always tell my friends is you know, let me ask, when you call 911, what is your level of trust?
00:30:21.759 -->
00:30:26.880And the answer is it's gonna be my guess is it's gonna be pretty high because you need it.
00:30:27.039 -->
00:30:32.319You need that you need that courageous person to come assist you in your worst day.
00:30:32.480 -->
00:30:38.960And as a result, and and therefore it's it's not likely when they show up, you're gonna you're gonna say, hey, I don't trust you, right?
00:30:39.119 -->
00:30:54.640I mean, it's basically um uh and so I I think when it gets down to the individual um uh kind of experience, um, I do think um that that I do think that that becomes less of an issue.
00:30:54.799 -->
00:30:59.759I think it just becomes more of a generic issue when you see something on the news.
00:31:00.000 -->
00:31:25.279I do love the way that you've talked about the training and back to the Kalia um as a gold standard, that that you're training the officer to create an environment of trust um and and to show to the person that they're engaging the respect um and that they will give them the benefit of the doubt walking into the situation.
00:31:25.440 -->
00:31:43.839And to your point, by slowing things down, by de-escalating, by creating time and space, um, all those things give the officer the chance to extend the first um the first um uh the the hand of trust, of which then hopefully can then be extended back.
00:31:44.240 -->
00:31:44.720Absolutely.
00:31:44.880 -->
00:31:51.839You know, one of the biggest misconceptions is that uh trust is earned, trust is given.
00:31:52.000 -->
00:32:01.200That's why, you know, when you read the law enforcement code of ethics, it starts with your first fundamental duty is service, and then everything else follows.
00:32:01.599 -->
00:32:06.319Then the last line is this is your chosen profession before God.
00:32:06.960 -->
00:32:13.039So when you take your oath of office, that's society extending trust to you.
00:32:13.920 -->
00:32:15.119Distrust is earned.
00:32:15.599 -->
00:32:24.720So when we have conversations about whether people trust the police or not, I I'm honest about myself about where distrust was earned.
00:32:24.960 -->
00:32:32.480So when you can acknowledge where distrust is earned, then you can begin the process of repairing trust with those who are open to it.
00:32:35.200 -->
00:32:37.839Fantastic, Chief or Deputy Chief.
00:32:38.000 -->
00:32:39.440Uh it's interesting.
00:32:39.599 -->
00:32:47.279I always tell people, they say, you know, what you know, what should I think about with uh when I when I interact with police officers?
00:32:47.599 -->
00:32:48.880I I say a couple things.
00:32:49.039 -->
00:32:57.920One is I say, remember, you have no idea where they just came from and what um you know what kind of a traumatic situation they may have seen.
00:32:58.079 -->
00:33:04.880So you might, you know, when you get pulled over on a traffic stop, you might be a bit more empathetic in that context.
00:33:05.119 -->
00:33:14.400The other thing I said is that that you know they're trained um through you know lots and lots of of interactions with citizens.
00:33:14.559 -->
00:33:19.359They you know they hear 99% of the truth, but they do hear 1% of the mistruth.
00:33:19.519 -->
00:33:26.240So they do, they are very good at spotting when people are not telling them, not being honest.
00:33:26.319 -->
00:33:28.799And so the best thing you can possibly do is be honest.
00:33:28.960 -->
00:33:34.960And I guess to that point, they're honest with you, they're giving you trust.
00:33:35.119 -->
00:33:37.440You need to kind of respond in kind, right?
00:33:37.519 -->
00:33:42.000You need to you need to say, I'm going to acknowledge that and I'm gonna give the trust back.
00:33:42.880 -->
00:33:45.200Um, so I think that's fantastic.
00:33:45.359 -->
00:33:50.400Well, Chief, I hate to say it, but I think we've um we've kind of um run out of time.
00:33:50.559 -->
00:33:53.279Um, I only have one last question to ask you.
00:33:53.440 -->
00:34:07.359Yeah, and that is, you know, we typically make a donation in your um in your name, um, because you've taken the half hour to sit here and kind of educate me how and educate our audience.
00:34:07.599 -->
00:34:12.480How um in what donation or what charity can we make a donation for you today?
00:34:12.800 -->
00:34:18.559You know, if you make a donation to the Cleveland Food Bank, uh that would be amazing.
00:34:18.880 -->
00:34:26.800The Cleveland Food Bank here is working diligently to feel to feed as many families here in the greater Cleveland area.
00:34:26.960 -->
00:34:36.079And if if that's an accept acceptable place to make a donation, I I would be honored uh to for you to move forward with that donation.
00:34:36.800 -->
00:34:40.159We will do exactly that, uh, Deputy Chief.
00:34:41.039 -->
00:34:45.840Well, and Deputy Chief, thanks thanks again for joining first response.
00:34:46.639 -->
00:34:54.000Uh folks, uh, you know, every time I do one of these podcasts, I walk away with a new insight.
00:34:54.719 -->
00:34:57.199And I and I'm just super grateful for it.
00:34:57.440 -->
00:35:10.239In this context, there's a couple of insights for me that things I take away, and that one is this definition of trust, and that trust is given, um, not um not taken.
00:35:10.880 -->
00:35:21.280Um and that trust, you know, that that that the it's the the the community has given trust to the officers.
00:35:21.440 -->
00:35:32.480That's that's the first um kind of they trust the community, trust the officers and the and the and the organization that that manages those officers with the trust of the community.
00:35:32.719 -->
00:35:41.199And then the um those officers have to give trust to the um the the folks that they come in contact with.
00:35:41.360 -->
00:35:43.280And I think that's fantastic.
00:35:43.440 -->
00:36:05.920Um the second insight for me, and I and I'm gonna make sure and and get some um 911 folks on here, is that while officers themselves encounter this kind of challenge every day, and um the 911 officers, the people that you call 911, they encounter the same challenges themselves, um, uh even in a more um aggressive way.
00:36:06.000 -->
00:36:15.360And I think we got to remember that you know when you make that phone call, you're talking to someone who hears you know hundreds and hundreds of challenging calls every week.
00:36:15.599 -->
00:36:17.199Just something to remember.
00:36:17.679 -->
00:36:20.639Folks, thanks for taking the time to listen to first response.
00:36:20.960 -->
00:36:33.760This is the uh number one um podcast relating to um uh emergency responders and and policing and the role police policing makes in the or happen uh serves in the United States today.
00:36:33.840 -->
00:36:39.599And this is sponsored by uh Pepperball, where I have the honor to be the chief executive officer.
00:36:39.760 -->
00:36:42.400So until next time, uh be safe out there.
00:36:42.559 -->
00:36:43.679Thanks very much.
