Coparenting: How to keep it about the kids

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First responder wellness for the whole person with your hosts,
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Corinne and Kajs. Talking about co-parenting, which is kind of
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a sister connection from our conversation last time about divorce
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and relevant to everyone, but probably has its own specifics
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related to first responders. How do we define co-parenting? So
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for people listening are kind of like, am I a co-parent?
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How do you know if you're a co-parent? What the
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heck does it mean?
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Yeah.
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So co-parenting is usually the term we're using when the
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two custodial parents or biological parents are no longer in
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a relationship and the kids are going back and forth
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to both houses. But really also, I like to include
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in the conversation also often like the grandparents and stuff
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that are, even when they aren't the custodial parent, but
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they're helping to care for the children. they are co-parenting too,
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especially when you aren't, you aren't married or, or still
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in a relationship with their child. And you're, I co-parent
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in a lot of ways with my ex-in-laws. They are
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home a lot with the kids and we're coordinating things
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and items and schedules and, and different parts of the year.
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They go to Florida for the winter, but like, The
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rest of the time, a lot of the times, it's
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a lot of co-parenting with them. So, you know, they're
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included in the conversation as well. I love that you
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brought that up because since I'm not in that setting,
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I take for granted. I didn't think about the fact
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that you're still interacting with extended family members, not just
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your significant past other, whatever we call them.
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That's complicated.
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Yeah. Yeah. And depending on the situation depends on how
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much you need to be doing that. But, you know,
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so for, you know, even just like getting started is
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some basics that's like even beyond first responders. Like I
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when my ex-husband and I separated and.
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We initially and. you know, our families were all adjusting
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to that and what this looks like.
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Historically, I think we all know that, like, as when
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I was growing up, people who had divorced parents almost
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never was a, see, I never saw people having a
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good relationship with their ex and co-parenting well together.
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It's definitely what we would.
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Call now parallel parenting, where When you're with me, this
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is the way we're doing it. And when you're with
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the other parents, that's how they're doing it. And we
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don't communicate. We don't align. We don't try to stay
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on the same page. And sometimes that is the only
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way you can do it because of, you know, maybe
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a toxic ex or somebody who's not willing to collaborate
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or they don't share your same values. Can I interrupt, Corinne?
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Because I don't know if we'll talk much about that
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type of setting, but I would think from a young
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person's perspective, that could be good or bad because they
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might prefer the variety of getting a different vibe from
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each parent. But they have to reset who they are,
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their rules and their boundaries each time they go to
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a different home.
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I think kids have to do that. even in the
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best of co-parenting situations. They do that code switching and
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that for sure. Because even if you collaborate really well together,
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what their chores or their personal responsibility or who's doing
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what for them.
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Is going to be at least slightly different.
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And then it can be all the way up to
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completely different and having just night and day different expectations or...
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even bedtime routines and household personnel, personal responsibility, expectations, that.
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Kind of stuff. So yeah, it's yeah.
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Yeah. And unfortunately the kids really are the ones that
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suffer the most through, through all of this and is
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it's the hardest on them. So that's also why I
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think this is such an important topic because I think
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it's important for us to remember. I know when I'm
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working with my clients, I'm always trying to remind them
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of like, let's picture the kid's perspective on this and
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how complicated it is and how like they they love
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both parents and they don't want to be betraying or
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having to pick or align or hold and they shouldn't
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have to and so if they feel like you know
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one parent will be upset if they want to do
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something with the other parent or if they're you know
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I've had um co-parents I've heard of situations where like
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you know how when kids are younger at least this
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is was my kids experience that they sometimes the teachers
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will give you a whole packet that's due of homework
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that they'll say like oh kids are busy and they
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got sports so we give it to you on Monday
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and it's due on Friday or like a two-week period
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or something like that I've had where um One co-parent.
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Tells the kids, the.
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Homework is always due on Mom's Day, on Friday is
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Mom's Day, so it's always due then. And they'll say,
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so you're not going to do the homework here because
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that's Mom's responsibility.
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It gets that tight, doesn't it, where people make those
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tight of boundaries around their obligations.
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Yes.
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And it's like, who's that? I mean, you're sticking it
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to Mom, but you're sticking it to the kid. What's
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the purpose of homework is as an, and a packet
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like that is to, is to not have to do
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all in an hour the night before half tired.
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That's good. Does nobody any good.
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And so, yeah, like what are we doing here and,
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and what's the purpose and who, who is this benefiting
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is by having that kind of, so then if the
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kid even, the kids don't want to do homework, but
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like imagine the kid doesn't want to wait till the
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last minute. but then feels like they can't really do
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it when they're at that parent's house because that would
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be aligning with mom or betraying them. And it just
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gets so much and so complicated for the kids to
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have to navigate.
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Even if parents don't have an amicable separation, and I
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don't know if this happens with mediation, guardian of light, therapist,
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I don't know where this happens, but maybe teaching families
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how to align. The understanding that both parents matter, both
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parents are everything. You can be good to this parent
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and still be good to me. Where does that come from?
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Especially if a parent is not feeling that way about
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the other parent. Yeah.
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So some counties, and at least we're in Northeast Ohio,
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so some counties in the area require, it doesn't matter
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the situation, you have to take a parenting course. And
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they try to address some of that stuff in it.
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And other counties don't require it. Some, if it's real
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contentious and then you're going back to court a lot,
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they may require you to have like a parenting expert
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kind of person who helps mediate things as you go.
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But I have seen that to not even, to be
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like very well-intentioned, also expensive for the families. But that ultimately,
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if the parent isn't, if one parent isn't on board,
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they're still not going.
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To, to do it. So this could be a reality.
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Somebody dealing with co-parenting may very well have a situation
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like you're talking about where things are not always focused
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on the child, perhaps to get to the significant, perhaps
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because they don't see that this is harmful. Yes.
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And even in good circumstances where it isn't that far
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to that contentious, I do see people kind of getting
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lost in the weeds as far as like complaining about
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the other parent, talking poorly about them. I mean, we're
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all human, but like doing that on a regular basis
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really also. So the kids are 50% of each biological parent.
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And so they, when you talk poorly about their dad,
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let's say, that you are also sending a message that
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part of them is bad. Part of them is not desirable.
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And it's just really harmful and toxic. And again, it
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forces them to have this alliance. And it's really unfair.
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I know that, again, when my ex-husband and I separated,
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I made a very clear promise expectation to my family
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who's like you know on they're here for me and
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love me right so um I said from the very
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beginning like if the kids are with me whether they're
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in the room or not but if they are here
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with me there's not one bad word that can be
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said about him his family his you know even in
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the minutiae of the divorce and all of that stuff
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of how that's all going, we only say positive things
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or you can inquire about his family, inquire about what
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they had for dinner at dad's or whatever.
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You know, but like, and no eye rolling, no, um.
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Nothing, because even if they're not in the room, you
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don't know if they can even hear it or if they're.
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You know, about to walk in the room. This is just,
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we're not doing that.
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And, um, you know, and I had the same conversation with, uh, my,
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ex-husband about, like, I would prefer that that be a
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similar thing. You know, like if, if the kids are
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with me, you guys can say all you want.
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About me and what you think about me and vice versa. Right.
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It's like, I'm not, but let's try to keep them
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to know that we, that's not how it's going to
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go because that's not.
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Fair to them.
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No.
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And I have to say, this does not happen a lot, unfortunately,
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from what I hear from sitting in a room with
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the young people. And for a lot of these couples,
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they were doing it when they were married in front
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of the children already. So they were already vilifying each other,
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maybe name calling, saying bad things, sharing with the kid
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that I can't believe your mom or dad did this.
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And then when the divorce happens, that language continues. And
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my clients feel so conflicted because they're like, well, I
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like that parent, but mom saying parent did that. And
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something that I say to my clients, maybe it's a
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little bit of a leap from here, but Even bad
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parents matter. So even if someone's convinced that their parent's
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bad or, and I hate to use that word, but
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just in general, you got a bad parent or your
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parent wasn't good at parenting, it's still the parent. They
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still love them and they're still connected. And to your point,
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that 50%, we still don't vilify them because we have
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to learn to accept that whatever their challenges are as
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a parent, so the young person can learn to accept.
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A big ask. It's a big ask when you're emotional
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and going through all these feelings as a parent. Absolutely.
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And what I like, I tell.
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My clients this all the time, and I want to
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be clear in this too, is that I am also
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human and I am not handling everything perfectly or I'm
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not proud of everything that I've, every decision I've made
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or every comment.
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I've made or whatever.
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But I do try to practice this and emulate this
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and to also apologize and own it to them. when
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I do say something or if I am having a
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reaction in, you know, in front of them, um, that
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isn't fair to them that they shouldn't be exposed to. Um,
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and I, and I have been frustrated with, um, my
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ex-husband and some of the decisions that he has made.
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And I'm, I guarantee you he has the same, same,
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can say the exact same thing. But so then the kid,
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my kids have said, asked before, like as I'm having
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an emotional reaction and even trying not to say the thing,
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but like just visibly frustrated. They've questioned me about it
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or said like, and I try very hard to say,
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I am allowed to be frustrated with your dad. And
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I am also allowed to, to, wish he would have
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handled something different or think he should have done something different.
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And also, I am not God and I am not
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the expert in everything. So while I would have done
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it differently and I'm frustrated about it, he gets.
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To make his choice.
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And I.
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Don't ever want them to not tell me something because
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they don't want me to be frustrated or upset with
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him or.
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Whatever and that's that is completely.
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Not fair to them um and there's no lines secrets
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yeah and there's clear lines in this you know who's
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to say what the right choice is in the moment
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it can change so we might think ours is the
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right choice but there's there's two there's two parent angles
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and the one isn't always the right one they're just
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different right in some.
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Cases i'm sure at times your your ex is probably
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thinking rationally that this is the right choice. In his mind,
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it's the truth. And in your mind, it's a different truth.
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So I like that you say that to your kids.
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You're like, I'm allowed to feel frustration. It doesn't mean
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I'm right or wrong, but I'm allowed to be frustrated.
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Just like you're allowed to be frustrated.
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Yep.
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Yep.
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And you're allowed to be frustrated with him too, for
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different things. And you're allowed to be frustrated with me.
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And we, you know, and I hope just the same,
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like I, we are both teaching you guys to be respectful.
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How do you communicate frustration and And you can feel
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disappointed and not like it and it still be what
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it is.
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And, you know, for the most part, I.
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Am lucky that I have somebody that we were for
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the majority of things on the same page and will
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work together to.
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Communicate the same messages as far as what's okay, what's
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not okay.
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Uh, you know, what, where our values and priorities are.
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And, um, you know, his, like my son years ago, um, was,
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you know, sassed back at me at a, at a
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baseball game and, and my ex's dad corrected him and said,
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I don't.
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Want to ever hear you talk to your mother that way.
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And, you know, it's like, we're, we're all, we're all
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trying to raise good humans here. And I very much
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appreciated that too. And that signals to me that we're
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on this, we're on the same team of raising these
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humans to be good. And, you know, even if you
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don't like me and I'm not saying that that's how
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they feel, but even if they don't, that, that still the, the, like,
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don't be disrespectful to your mother is what, how we
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want to be raising our children.
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Right.
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So, um, yeah, that's the, I'm lucky in that way.
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I know that not everybody has that same type of collaboration,
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but I encourage people to strive for it because even
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when I haven't necessarily found felt that or um and
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it's been nothing that has been overtly blatant but um
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where you could go low and it would it feels
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like that's what you want to do.
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At the time you're kind of setting.
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The tone and the example of that that like whether
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or not you um like me or all the decisions
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i make we are all on the same team with
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them and and we're not going to do that we're
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going to lead by example You have.
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The same mission, like you said, which is to help
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the kids. And there are cases, I always have to
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step in with these, where the other parent cannot do that,
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like you said. And it can be ugly and it
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can maybe even be blatant. And I think the other
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side of that, again, on the child side, which I
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tend to bring in, but is your parent can love you.
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They could die for you, but it doesn't mean they
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have the capacity to parent well. So in some of
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these cases, when it's obvious that this is just, you know,
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we have parents that don't follow and come and pick
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the kids up. You know, they're not consistent. That's out there.
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And in co-parenting, that shows up. But that doesn't mean
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that that child still can't love and care for that parent.
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You as the other parent can instill the fact that
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they love you, they adore you. And maybe the parent
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wouldn't be the one saying this. It might be the therapist.
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But not everyone has the same capacity for parenting. It's
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a really tough job. And they're not all going to
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do it equally.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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And even if the person that you are co-parenting with
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is disparaging you or like trying to set you up
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what it feels like for failure or for the kids
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to think badly of you. And I would love to
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hear your take on this, too, if you agree with this.
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But I believe that it really ends up always shaking
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out in the wash that like when especially once they
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get older, too. They know who's like, even if you're
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holding to the discipline and holding to the expectations and
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the other one isn't or is bad talking, like you
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living in line with your own morals and values and
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what you want to raise of them, they will see
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that and know that. And the disparaging comments aren't going
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to make your kid not love you. And they may
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be confused and questioning whether or not, as far as
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respect and that kind of stuff, But ultimately, they will
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know kind of what the deal is, right? And who
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was acting maturely or who was.
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And so it's not always easy to do that. I
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do know that.
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I mean, I will be in here listening to some
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people's frustrations with their co-parenting and I will get outraged.
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Like, this is crazy. And so hard, like, you know.
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Because co-parenting and collaborating together, I will tell you, is like...
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as difficult as it, as it feels like it is,
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it's so much easier than not the like fighting against
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one another. And it's like, not only is this so
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hard for the kids, but it is harder for you.
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The hardest things I've had to do or deal with
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in co-parenting is when we don't agree.
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It's, And, you know, so.
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To be able to try to communicate and get on
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the same page as much as possible, work together is like,
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it makes it easier for everybody.
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And you have to, if you're a parent, you have
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to get out of your own way. And this is
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true when you're parenting young people, too. I mean, it's
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not just about co-parenting, but if you have something that's
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in your way, an inflexibility, a past transference or projection
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of your own life, your own mental health, you have
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a responsibility to work on that so that you can
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be someone who can collaborate better and communicate better. Because
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usually it's coming from something already wounded in the parent
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and they just don't know how to fix it yet.
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And then it comes out really big when there's a
355
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conflict like this. So it's your obligation, I think. I
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think parents need to work on themselves to be good
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parents and they deserve it for themselves also. Absolutely.
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And this is also where I am a huge advocate.
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And of course, this is like, because this is our lens,
360
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but of like our, if, especially kids of divorced or
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like not living in the same household of both parents,
362
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for your kids to have a therapist, a counselor, that
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they like, that they go to, and it doesn't have
364
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to be every single week, depends on what's going on,
365
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but like somebody they can check in and say, these
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people are batshit crazy.
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Or like, you know, you want to like this, please. Yes,
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dad's telling me this, mom's telling me this.
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And this is a huge part of your role too,
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where you help them to navigate like, And make the
371
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wise choice and to find their own voice.
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And how do you share this with your parents?
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And to be like that adult in the room with
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a full brain online and who can be helping your
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kids to talk through.
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Any of the things that they're struggling with.
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And this is a person that is ideal for our
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kids to say like, you know, I'm thinking about having sex.
379
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.599
And somebody with their full brain online is like, okay,
380
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that makes sense.
381
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So how do we do it safely? How do we
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know you're ready? And have these conversations where they won't,
383
00:20:48.089 --> 00:20:51.109
that your kids probably don't want to talk to you
384
00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:54.430
about that as a parent, because... One, they assume you're
385
00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:56.789
going to come from a place of hell no, which, you.
386
00:20:56.730 --> 00:20:58.970
Know, we probably are. Can't help ourselves.
387
00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:03.470
Yes. Right. And and also they don't want to be
388
00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:06.890
in trouble or grounded or then not allowed.
389
00:21:06.650 --> 00:21:10.339
To see the boy or the girl or whatever it is. Right.
390
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.759
And so having somebody else to be able to help
391
00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:16.380
them to make responsible, ethical choices that aligns with their
392
00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:19.200
values and think it through and that doesn't come with
393
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consequences for or.
394
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.680
No, and they can say what they're feeling. And I
395
00:21:24.700 --> 00:21:27.460
think that should be, like you said, especially when you know,
396
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.720
even before you know that the divorce is imminent, to
397
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get somebody in place. I found with my clients that, one,
398
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those who come in early and we work with them
399
00:21:36.509 --> 00:21:39.410
through the whole process, we have much better outcomes. And
400
00:21:39.450 --> 00:21:41.630
for those who don't get that help, they're coming back
401
00:21:41.670 --> 00:21:46.890
to me years later with resentments, confusion, unanswered questions that
402
00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:49.839
have been manifesting for years because they couldn't talk to
403
00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.539
either parent about it. So I love that you brought
404
00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:56.140
that up, that get some kind of help for your
405
00:21:56.180 --> 00:21:58.539
child and for you, the parent, but for the children.
406
00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:00.200
Give them a chance to have an outlet.
407
00:22:00.980 --> 00:22:03.309
Yes. And so also when I have when I'm working
408
00:22:03.369 --> 00:22:08.869
with people in my office and this almost entirely first responders,
409
00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:14.190
I and they're having a difficult relationship or connection with
410
00:22:14.269 --> 00:22:15.289
one of their children.
411
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:18.759
I encourage them to bring the child in with them.
412
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:22.130
And I tell them, and I will tell the child, like, listen,
413
00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:23.470
I get to work with your dad.
414
00:22:24.109 --> 00:22:26.410
Um, all of the time. So if you've got some beef,
415
00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:29.289
let's talk about it. You tell me and I'm, I
416
00:22:29.309 --> 00:22:31.869
will help him with it. And so you can come.
417
00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:35.230
In and tattle on him or her and say, you know, like,
418
00:22:35.289 --> 00:22:37.789
I don't, and, and now listen, all of the things
419
00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:40.829
aren't always, I will, I will sometimes say, well, we
420
00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:43.430
have to consider the other, other side. And, but how
421
00:22:43.450 --> 00:22:45.190
do we communicate this with him? And how do we
422
00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:46.710
find the middle ground of it? Right.
423
00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:46.990
Okay.
424
00:22:47.730 --> 00:22:51.589
Yes, yes. And we can help him to make or
425
00:22:51.650 --> 00:22:54.390
her to make sure the kid feels heard and seen,
426
00:22:54.509 --> 00:22:57.710
even if that's ultimately that, you know, we have to
427
00:22:57.769 --> 00:23:01.150
make a different decision as a parent. But a lot
428
00:23:01.170 --> 00:23:04.390
of times our kids don't feel like they're even being heard.
429
00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:08.059
So even in that builds that connection of like, I
430
00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:10.700
hear you and I do understand exactly what you want
431
00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:11.609
and why you want it.
432
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.319
I get it. You may not get it, but we
433
00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:17.759
hear you. We're not doing that. But I do get
434
00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:21.599
why you want that. And I wish that I could
435
00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:23.680
give you everything you want whenever you want it. But,
436
00:23:24.309 --> 00:23:26.049
you know, that kind of thing. But it's so validating
437
00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:29.769
to give young people a voice in this. And therapy
438
00:23:29.809 --> 00:23:31.369
is one place. And you're doing it both on the
439
00:23:31.430 --> 00:23:34.869
parenting side and potentially their own therapy to validate that, yeah,
440
00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:36.470
you may not get what you want. Your parents may
441
00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:38.890
not get along. But to validate that this sucks and
442
00:23:38.930 --> 00:23:42.559
it's hard and the different feelings and or that, You're
443
00:23:42.579 --> 00:23:44.259
not getting what you want, but at least you get
444
00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:45.220
to say you don't think it's fair.
445
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:46.420
Yeah.
446
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.660
And unfortunately, a lot of times some of what's led
447
00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:57.630
to a divorce or dissolution is infidelity. I mean, particularly
448
00:23:58.029 --> 00:24:02.910
first responders trend higher percentage-wise of that than the general population.
449
00:24:02.930 --> 00:24:08.109
It's not shots fired. I think everybody who is a
450
00:24:08.130 --> 00:24:12.230
first responder has heard these statistics before, but So often
451
00:24:12.309 --> 00:24:17.410
the betrayed spouse will initially, when they find out, just
452
00:24:17.470 --> 00:24:20.569
kind of put it all out on blast. So the
453
00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:23.750
kids hear the minutia of the details and that this
454
00:24:23.809 --> 00:24:25.750
is what happened and this is with who and this
455
00:24:25.789 --> 00:24:31.259
was this thing, which if we can try to avoid
456
00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:33.339
that at all costs, that's ideal.
457
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:38.960
It does not do them any good and it's not
458
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.990
what's best for them at all.
459
00:24:42.150 --> 00:24:44.230
And then they end up siding with the one parent.
460
00:24:44.430 --> 00:24:46.430
And if there is an infidelity, there's a lot of
461
00:24:46.450 --> 00:24:49.240
things in the marriage that potentially weren't going well. And
462
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:53.190
that was just an outcome of of a bigger picture. Yes.
463
00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:55.569
And what it feels like to the child, even more
464
00:24:55.650 --> 00:24:58.029
so than that, because I know when people are initially betrayed,
465
00:24:58.089 --> 00:25:02.150
they really can't hear that they're, they have, they feel,
466
00:25:02.450 --> 00:25:05.019
they feel like it's blaming the victim if it's where
467
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.160
there's other pieces that led to this, which is true.
468
00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:10.240
We know that like in the bigger picture of a
469
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:14.720
fair recovery, but initially that is like, nobody's hearing that.
470
00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:18.140
But just even if we can think of it in
471
00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:21.009
terms of the kids, like It turns into the kids
472
00:25:21.049 --> 00:25:24.299
feeling like they were cheated on, that the betrayal happened
473
00:25:24.339 --> 00:25:28.779
to them. When we can all agree that, yes, they
474
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:32.819
are secondary victims of it, for lack of a better word.
475
00:25:32.859 --> 00:25:38.509
But the betrayal was about the marriage, not the children.
476
00:25:38.509 --> 00:25:40.609
100% of the time. Yes.
477
00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:46.710
And so that's a huge reason to not. loop them
478
00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:49.670
in on the details of that, if at all possible,
479
00:25:50.509 --> 00:25:54.220
because we don't need them to be feeling like that
480
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.200
this they were cheated on, that it had anything to
481
00:25:57.259 --> 00:26:00.700
do with them not being enough or them not.
482
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.539
Doing what they needed to do or be good.
483
00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:06.779
Like often kids will feel like, well, maybe like they
484
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.220
mom and dad were fighting about because I got in
485
00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.559
trouble at school and like maybe if I was better.
486
00:26:12.170 --> 00:26:14.150
Then they wouldn't have been fighting. Then they wouldn't have cheated.
487
00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:18.130
And all of that, they internalize it as their own
488
00:26:18.190 --> 00:26:21.519
responsibility for things that we would all agree is like,
489
00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:24.980
that is not the reason.
490
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.819
And that's why therapy is so important there, too. Because
491
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:30.920
if this did come from a place and a person
492
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.819
does know it was infidelity, there's ways to process and
493
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.309
validate and normalize that, too. And not vilify the other parent.
494
00:26:37.349 --> 00:26:39.640
But that takes a third party, right? Like you were saying,
495
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:42.420
their brains cannot do this in that crisis of divorce,
496
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:45.859
but your third party person can help. Yeah.
497
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.079
And that's also what I will bring in those children
498
00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:54.210
who are really angry at the spouse who did the
499
00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:57.109
infidelity and have them come in and give them a
500
00:26:57.130 --> 00:27:02.869
platform to say their anger and their hurt and betrayal
501
00:27:02.910 --> 00:27:09.869
and frustration and and their reluctance to then now be
502
00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:13.609
introduced to this person, which usually people then want to
503
00:27:13.670 --> 00:27:17.509
introduce that person and say, now this is my person.
504
00:27:17.569 --> 00:27:18.430
I'm in love.
505
00:27:18.670 --> 00:27:23.549
And it's often, especially when the kids know that this
506
00:27:23.589 --> 00:27:28.779
has been in terms of infidelity, it's incredibly difficult for them.
507
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:29.440
They're not ready.
508
00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:32.990
I mean, And people, I think that's some of the
509
00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:37.640
biggest mistakes people can make is introducing somebody too soon
510
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.619
after the marriage has ended, if they were married or
511
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.019
the relationship has ended. And then expecting the kids to
512
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:52.009
be like welcoming and open arms and like, you know,
513
00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:55.230
it's like, well, no wonder they don't like this person.
514
00:27:55.250 --> 00:27:59.170
I mean, it's really not about the person. It's like, that's,
515
00:27:59.859 --> 00:28:02.119
It's the role they're in. Yes. It's a tough role
516
00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:03.839
to be in. They look like the thing that split
517
00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:06.869
the situation that they just had. We don't have Christmas
518
00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:09.490
anymore the same way because of you. Yeah, yeah.
519
00:28:10.170 --> 00:28:12.109
And even if it wasn't because of, even if you
520
00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:17.380
were introducing somebody and it wasn't, there wasn't infidelity, we
521
00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:22.309
have to understand that aligning or being like liking the
522
00:28:22.349 --> 00:28:26.990
new person can feel like a betrayal to the other parent.
523
00:28:27.150 --> 00:28:28.289
And that is normal.
524
00:28:28.309 --> 00:28:32.269
We, if we can speak to that and, um, and
525
00:28:32.549 --> 00:28:36.019
even give our kids permission when we know that they're
526
00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:41.039
getting introduced to, uh, a new significant other, which again,
527
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:43.839
with the co-parenting in a, in the ideal circumstances is,
528
00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:47.529
You're letting the other parent know that this is what
529
00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:48.380
you'd like to do.
530
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:48.970
You'd like to.
531
00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:51.950
Introduce who you've been seeing and that you're in a
532
00:28:52.009 --> 00:28:54.650
committed relationship with somebody now and you want to introduce
533
00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:56.450
the kids and you tell the other.
534
00:28:56.589 --> 00:28:59.750
Parent this first before you do it.
535
00:29:00.829 --> 00:29:03.930
And so that they're prepared and not having an emotional
536
00:29:03.950 --> 00:29:05.519
reaction when the kids come home and say, we just
537
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:07.640
met dad's girlfriend.
538
00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:12.680
And she's moving in. And then mom's.
539
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.880
Supposed to be like just rolling with it and have
540
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:18.700
a very mature answer. It's like, well, let's give her
541
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:22.640
a minute to like to adjust to that herself before
542
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.079
we're having the kids watching her reaction.
543
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:29.829
But then also that we give that the mom gives
544
00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:33.549
them permission to like her and to, you know, get
545
00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:39.619
to know her. And as hard as that is, believe me,
546
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.039
it matters. It matters so much to them.
547
00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:45.960
You're giving, you're not giving this gift to your ex
548
00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:50.079
or to the other person. You're doing it for your
549
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:51.619
kid or kids.
550
00:29:52.299 --> 00:29:54.420
And that's almost like when you were talking earlier about
551
00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:58.410
when one person might disparage the other, There's a perfect
552
00:29:58.509 --> 00:30:01.490
example of role modeling the right behaviors because you were
553
00:30:01.509 --> 00:30:03.410
saying they might hear mom or dad or this or
554
00:30:03.450 --> 00:30:05.829
that or grandma and grandpa. But the actions are what
555
00:30:05.869 --> 00:30:08.539
play out the loudest. And that's a great example of
556
00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:11.680
they're going to see and remember that you were equal
557
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.599
or had parity in it or that you were tolerant
558
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.099
and accepting. And those things do, like you said earlier,
559
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:18.920
I just want to make sure I commented that for
560
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:20.269
kids when you were with them, that does come out
561
00:30:20.289 --> 00:30:22.410
in the wash. They really do respond to action, not
562
00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:24.619
words more. Might take a while. They do.
563
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.940
Yes, and kids also can understand. Even if this is
564
00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:32.180
super hard for you and you're brokenhearted and you can't...
565
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:35.559
You're just devastated that there is now the other person
566
00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:38.900
is going to be involved in the kids. And you've
567
00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:40.970
got all this fear about, are they going to try
568
00:30:41.009 --> 00:30:42.609
to take my place? Are they going to overstep my bounds?
569
00:30:42.630 --> 00:30:44.470
Are they going to be good to my kids? And
570
00:30:44.490 --> 00:30:46.809
this hurt that this person that you loved is now
571
00:30:46.849 --> 00:30:48.670
with somebody else and choosing them.
572
00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:50.390
All this. So hard.
573
00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:53.809
If you can be saying to your kids that you...
574
00:30:54.950 --> 00:30:58.220
like want them to like this person, that you want
575
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:00.880
this to go well, that you're rooting for this, even
576
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:06.000
while you're showing heartbreak or sadness, they can get that
577
00:31:06.099 --> 00:31:08.940
both things can be true, that you can be just like.
578
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:10.180
Sad and this hurts.
579
00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:14.819
Um, and that also, that doesn't mean that you don't
580
00:31:14.859 --> 00:31:17.799
want them to be having a.
581
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:19.480
Good relationship with that person. Right.
582
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.400
Yeah. Yeah. That they can like the person they can, um,
583
00:31:25.089 --> 00:31:27.369
you know, have fun with them and think they're funny
584
00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:32.549
or like whatever and enjoyable. And you can and mom
585
00:31:32.589 --> 00:31:34.509
can be sad at the same time or dad can be,
586
00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:35.950
you know, sad at the same time.
587
00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:39.700
And those things can coexist. That's a beautiful thing to teach.
588
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:41.819
That's sort of that dialectic that you can have two
589
00:31:41.859 --> 00:31:44.519
things at one time. You mentioned it earlier when you said,
590
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:46.900
I can make not the best choice as a parent,
591
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.180
but I can turn it into a great teaching moment
592
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.569
by apologizing. You know, so two things can be true there.
593
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.200
And And even when you said that earlier, you said,
594
00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:57.759
I can be frustrated, but that doesn't make your dad
595
00:31:57.779 --> 00:32:01.200
a bad human, right? We have trouble with that. I
596
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:04.599
find a lot of people have trouble filling in the and, but,
597
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.680
or the if, then, and that's a great thing to practice.
598
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.740
How can I also add that something else could be happening?
599
00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:14.240
Yeah, and I can disagree, and it doesn't also make
600
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.950
me right, even when I feel very much right.
601
00:32:19.869 --> 00:32:21.890
Yeah, that's a great example. That's why with kids, I
602
00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:23.980
think that's important to say, We don't have to agree
603
00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:26.000
on this. You know, we don't agree, but we can
604
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.109
hear each other and we can acknowledge we don't have
605
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:31.789
to come to the same truth. I see some benefits
606
00:32:31.890 --> 00:32:34.109
in this. Maybe this is because I'm not in this situation.
607
00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:36.529
But when you were talking earlier about all the things
608
00:32:36.589 --> 00:32:38.390
you have to do to try to parent well in
609
00:32:38.410 --> 00:32:42.279
this setting, do you become like an ultimate communicator? I
610
00:32:42.339 --> 00:32:45.640
feel like if you can handle that situation with all
611
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:49.039
the emotion and the logistics of it, do you feel
612
00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:50.880
like it helps in other areas? Could that be a
613
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.160
benefit of co-parenting? Yes, for sure.
614
00:32:54.259 --> 00:32:58.380
And even that, like, I do think my ex-husband and
615
00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:02.819
I communicate the best now than we ever have before.
616
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:09.490
And even when we disagree. And there are day-to-day things
617
00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:12.349
we disagree about. And what the default is, and the
618
00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:15.049
courts will say this too, is that I make the
619
00:33:15.069 --> 00:33:16.630
rules for my house, he makes the rules.
620
00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:25.710
For his house. we do communicate much better, I think,
621
00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:28.779
because we have to, we don't have to really.
622
00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:34.700
So like, even really being like thinking through what, what
623
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.460
I'm going to say, or even, even the battles I'm
624
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.099
going to pick are the things that, you know, the
625
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.039
things I disagree with is like, I, I can't have
626
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.650
an opinion about everything. I do have them, but, Voicing
627
00:33:47.670 --> 00:33:50.109
them and having them heard, right, is not going to
628
00:33:50.150 --> 00:33:50.670
be fair.
629
00:33:50.750 --> 00:33:53.970
So if this is a thing that is, like, not.
630
00:33:53.750 --> 00:33:57.390
The hill I'm going to die on, then, you know,
631
00:33:57.630 --> 00:34:02.079
waiting for something that is, like, I really, like, really
632
00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:05.759
think we got to either change course or, you know,
633
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:08.860
I don't agree with the thing. If there's, if I'm
634
00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:10.860
choosier about that and the way that I bring it up,
635
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:11.960
it's heard better.
636
00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:16.199
And, you know, I definitely do, I do that better.
637
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:18.880
now than I did when we were married, for sure. Yeah,
638
00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.639
because when people are not getting along in any relationship,
639
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.480
there's a lot of static. You think you hear what
640
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.800
you hear. You think you know what they mean. You
641
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:29.429
think you're reading their nonverbal cues. And often that gets
642
00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:31.550
real muddy. So now you're saying, I can bring out
643
00:34:31.610 --> 00:34:35.610
an actual deliberate, intentional communication that doesn't come with so
644
00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:38.050
much layering. Yeah, absolutely.
645
00:34:38.070 --> 00:34:41.480
It's hurt. And even like I want to kind of
646
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:45.039
chime in because I hear this as an often like
647
00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:48.980
conflict area too of like kids sports. So, you know,
648
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:51.989
my kids are in all the sports pretty much around
649
00:34:52.510 --> 00:34:56.269
the clock. And I try, my ex and I try,
650
00:34:56.349 --> 00:34:59.550
we sit by each other at most of the things.
651
00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:04.590
And the difference between that, and we didn't always, in
652
00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.210
the very beginning there was some like, it's also like
653
00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:09.449
figuring out what's this dynamic going to be and.
654
00:35:09.409 --> 00:35:10.429
Not to confuse them.
655
00:35:11.090 --> 00:35:14.690
But what, but what I saw happening with them is
656
00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:17.809
that like, if, if it's my weekend, so they come
657
00:35:17.869 --> 00:35:20.360
with me, then they see dad over there, then they
658
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:21.940
go over to dad and then they come back and
659
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:23.280
then they go over to dad and then they come back.
660
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.980
And then, and I can, I could feel their like
661
00:35:26.659 --> 00:35:29.460
tornness of like how long they're standing with either one
662
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.500
of us and not wanting like, well, cause I'm not
663
00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:33.110
with dad. I want to make sure I give him time.
664
00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:37.019
And it's like, you know, I, I'm just like, let,
665
00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:40.429
we'll just sit together. They just, then, then they know
666
00:35:40.449 --> 00:35:45.190
we're like, we're cheering for this one, your sibling. We're
667
00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:47.789
all on the same team here. And you can be like, oh, dad,
668
00:35:47.809 --> 00:35:50.469
you know, we're going to go to Grammy's tonight.
669
00:35:50.190 --> 00:35:51.429
And have pizza.
670
00:35:51.469 --> 00:35:53.710
And like and it doesn't have you can see that
671
00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:56.469
we can be just talking about those things or what
672
00:35:56.489 --> 00:36:00.400
happened at school or. And there isn't this because people
673
00:36:00.579 --> 00:36:03.159
have all these big feelings, too, if they're if it's
674
00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:06.760
not their weekend and they're sitting by mom and they
675
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:10.619
don't come over. And there's all this, I'm like, imagine
676
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.019
these kids are so, so stressful.
677
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.760
I'm in here and I'm stressed. That's their mom, right?
678
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:17.579
How do they ignore them? That's just.
679
00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:19.000
Yes.
680
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:21.320
But then there, it feels like the other parent is,
681
00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:23.570
is encouraging that and all that.
682
00:36:23.610 --> 00:36:25.889
It's just kind of like. That's a great point that
683
00:36:26.190 --> 00:36:28.590
somewhere where you have to be in a shared environment,
684
00:36:28.690 --> 00:36:31.889
how do you manage that? And if you're even a co-person,
685
00:36:31.909 --> 00:36:33.949
like I've been in situations where other people are in
686
00:36:33.969 --> 00:36:37.409
that and you're even uncomfortable, you're like, where do we go?
687
00:36:37.510 --> 00:36:40.030
Because these two people are not together, but there's like
688
00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:43.469
photos or stuff. Like it's, it's hard. And these poor
689
00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:44.949
kids really. Yes.
690
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:47.599
I also like, I will say this to my, um,
691
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:50.880
that they're friends, parents and stuff at school. So like
692
00:36:51.019 --> 00:36:54.360
our stuff is, should not be making everybody uncomfortable or
693
00:36:54.539 --> 00:36:58.630
any of that. Like we, you know, you, um, even
694
00:36:58.670 --> 00:37:01.190
when they'll say like, Oh, can they come over? Can
695
00:37:01.550 --> 00:37:04.329
you know, your daughter could sleep over this weekend. I'm
696
00:37:04.389 --> 00:37:05.889
not like, well, it's not my weekend.
697
00:37:05.929 --> 00:37:08.230
I can't say. I will say to the parent, it's
698
00:37:08.590 --> 00:37:11.670
not my weekend, but I'll reach out to him. Send
699
00:37:11.710 --> 00:37:13.309
him your number. Let him know.
700
00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:16.949
And I sometimes will even say, I'm sure it'll be
701
00:37:16.989 --> 00:37:18.840
fine as long as he doesn't have something else planned.
702
00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:24.039
But I'm going to loop him in. But that's because
703
00:37:24.059 --> 00:37:30.909
you two communicate. Yeah, but people don't. But really, I think, Like,
704
00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:33.440
I'm insistent on it. And I'm not saying he isn't
705
00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:36.300
or he is resistant, but I can see how if, like,
706
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:38.059
I think you just have to take the lead and
707
00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:38.900
being like, no, this is.
708
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:39.579
What we're doing.
709
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:43.139
Like, this isn't fair for everybody else to have to
710
00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:47.230
figure out whose weekend it is or who they're supposed
711
00:37:47.269 --> 00:37:48.690
to text and not text.
712
00:37:48.789 --> 00:37:52.329
And, like, it's like... And it is confusing because I've
713
00:37:52.349 --> 00:37:55.469
been in situations with, you know, my nieces and nephew,
714
00:37:55.849 --> 00:37:57.670
or my niece and nephew, and I'm always like, who...
715
00:37:58.110 --> 00:37:59.289
And usually I just ask the kids. They're a little
716
00:37:59.309 --> 00:38:00.469
bit older, so I can say, who are you with
717
00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:04.670
this weekend? Who do I confirm with? But yeah, it
718
00:38:04.849 --> 00:38:08.219
can travel beyond just the kids and you as a couple.
719
00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:11.900
Yeah. And I would say unless there's a specific reason
720
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:16.639
not to, put both parents in that group chat and say, hey,
721
00:38:16.659 --> 00:38:19.039
I don't know whose weekend it is, but can Sally
722
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:20.280
come with us?
723
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:23.360
I just want to make sure, you know? Let them
724
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:24.940
worry about whether they want to be on the same
725
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.119
group chat. Let it be about them, not you. Right.
726
00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:30.480
I want to, I like, I really, if, if, if
727
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:34.460
any part of, if it is you at all, who
728
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:36.500
is that cannot be on the same group chat as
729
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.099
your co-parent, I really want you to look in the
730
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:39.800
mirror because what are we talking about?
731
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:41.730
Like, this isn't like you're.
732
00:38:42.090 --> 00:38:45.210
Nobody's saying you need to come have the sleepover all
733
00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:49.150
together yourselves. Right. This is like, we're, if we, if
734
00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:51.750
you can't be on the same group chat about where
735
00:38:51.789 --> 00:38:55.070
your kids are going to you think what yeah yes
736
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:58.250
what we're talking about and if it's not you if
737
00:38:58.309 --> 00:39:01.150
it's your co-parent then that's a them problem that does
738
00:39:01.190 --> 00:39:05.949
not mean like you aunt and kais put them both
739
00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:09.019
on it it's like if you guys can't handle.
740
00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:12.699
This what are we doing what are we doing that's
741
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:14.760
so funny because someone just texted me earlier today about
742
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.269
what do we do when certain family members are not
743
00:39:17.309 --> 00:39:19.420
talking and we're, we're planning things. And I say, I
744
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.139
just plan them and let them do their own thing.
745
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:23.239
I'm not, I don't get involved in that. I'm still
746
00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:25.590
going to do the thing. And then people can decide
747
00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:27.590
for themselves. Yes.
748
00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:32.139
And like, I'm not, I'm not divorced from them or like,
749
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.360
I'm not not talking to them when there's families, this
750
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:36.019
is family dynamics.
751
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.420
When there's, there's two people in your family that are beefing,
752
00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:42.400
it's like, then let them beef. That's not for, that's
753
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:48.159
not you. You do you and invite the people. And
754
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.360
if They don't want to come if so-and-so's coming. Stay
755
00:39:52.420 --> 00:39:56.360
out of it. It's like you figured that out. That's
756
00:39:56.380 --> 00:39:59.239
like a whole other podcast, isn't it? Like managing family
757
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:03.829
dynamics in conflict. See, we always tag something. One thing
758
00:40:03.869 --> 00:40:05.349
I wanted to ask really quick to make sure we capture,
759
00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:07.670
because I know we're getting close on time. Resources. Do
760
00:40:07.710 --> 00:40:10.670
you know of any co-parenting resources, whether within the first
761
00:40:11.050 --> 00:40:14.469
responder community or just in general? Are there sites or places?
762
00:40:15.250 --> 00:40:17.489
Yeah, we can link them into the I've got a
763
00:40:17.550 --> 00:40:21.949
couple that came to mind. Right. And we can and
764
00:40:21.980 --> 00:40:25.480
some therapists that I know that really are do very
765
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.940
good job with this kind of stuff. And even a therapist,
766
00:40:29.019 --> 00:40:32.039
I see that she does. I send most of my
767
00:40:32.059 --> 00:40:35.880
first responders to her for couples therapy. But she will
768
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.550
even do like we're getting we're in the middle of separating.
769
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:42.429
And how do we tell the kids? How do we
770
00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:46.489
create a parenting plan that works? Because, like you had
771
00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:48.750
asked in the beginning, the nuances of first responders is
772
00:40:48.769 --> 00:40:50.429
their goofy schedules.
773
00:40:50.670 --> 00:40:55.570
So if you're a firefighter in this area, traditionally it's 24-48.
774
00:40:55.579 --> 00:40:55.989
And so....
775
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.219
How we rotate schedules is not the traditional way that
776
00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:08.820
the gen pop is doing it. And same with the
777
00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:13.670
police officers with 12-hour shifts or rotating shifts or working
778
00:41:13.710 --> 00:41:17.289
night shifts and all of that kind of stuff. And
779
00:41:17.329 --> 00:41:20.130
so she does a really good job of helping them
780
00:41:20.210 --> 00:41:26.079
figure out a good solution for everybody. And like I
781
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:31.309
said in the divorce podcast we talked about, When you
782
00:41:31.389 --> 00:41:34.769
are starting to create this parenting plan and this agreement
783
00:41:34.789 --> 00:41:36.889
of how it's going to go, the two of you
784
00:41:36.909 --> 00:41:39.530
can either work together and figure out what works best
785
00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:41.469
for you, or you can let the court do it.
786
00:41:42.030 --> 00:41:42.760
The court will do it.
787
00:41:43.050 --> 00:41:45.579
It's got a template and you're going with gen pop
788
00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:47.920
and what the basic is. You're going to rotate each
789
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:48.559
of the things.
790
00:41:48.579 --> 00:41:51.500
You're going to do this. My ex-husband and I did
791
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:53.320
not want to do that.
792
00:41:53.460 --> 00:41:57.710
We have created the traditions of like which part of
793
00:41:57.769 --> 00:42:00.760
the family things that the kids are We would want
794
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:04.050
the kids to be at and we work together that,
795
00:42:04.829 --> 00:42:08.150
you know, these are these are the days and they
796
00:42:08.170 --> 00:42:10.489
have the same tradition each year for all of these
797
00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:13.750
holidays of where they go and what they do. And
798
00:42:13.769 --> 00:42:17.559
that that part was important to both of us. And
799
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:19.179
we both lose out on some of the things that
800
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.019
is sad. But but when it is the fun thing
801
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.260
that I know his family does that they would want
802
00:42:24.340 --> 00:42:27.530
to be at is like then they should go to that.
803
00:42:27.670 --> 00:42:30.849
That's I want them. Well, I want them always with me.
804
00:42:31.110 --> 00:42:34.590
I do want them to have that, too. And and
805
00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:35.369
so it's that 50 percent.
806
00:42:35.369 --> 00:42:36.750
50 percent of life.
807
00:42:38.630 --> 00:42:42.429
Yes and our schedule is different than most people like
808
00:42:42.469 --> 00:42:43.969
we they go back and forth back and forth a
809
00:42:44.030 --> 00:42:47.039
lot but we also check in with them I check
810
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:50.199
in with them at least quarterly I mean I'm just
811
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.159
regularly because they're getting older too of like does this
812
00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:56.210
still make sense for you guys we did this because
813
00:42:56.230 --> 00:42:58.110
this seemed to make sense when you were little when
814
00:42:58.130 --> 00:43:02.630
we did this um and they still and I'm want
815
00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:03.750
them to have a say about it.
816
00:43:03.750 --> 00:43:06.190
And they still say it works for them. They like
817
00:43:06.210 --> 00:43:09.530
it that way. I like that you asked, Corinne. I
818
00:43:09.570 --> 00:43:11.409
like that you guys say, is this okay, guys? Now
819
00:43:11.429 --> 00:43:14.619
you're in high school or whatever. Is this still okay? Beautiful. Yeah.
820
00:43:14.699 --> 00:43:16.320
And it's a lot of back and forth for you
821
00:43:16.420 --> 00:43:17.059
on this end.
822
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.300
And some other kids will go week to week and
823
00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:24.380
they're like, oh, I wouldn't want to go a whole
824
00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:26.079
week without.
825
00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:27.699
And it does work.
826
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:32.349
But you get to create your own If you two
827
00:43:32.429 --> 00:43:35.250
can communicate and if you if you're having a hard
828
00:43:35.289 --> 00:43:38.340
time doing it, it's getting a third party, preferably a
829
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.219
therapist who is familiar with this kind of stuff to
830
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.579
help you navigate what makes the most sense and what
831
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:46.300
is the least disruptive for them.
832
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:50.619
For the kids. I mean, there's three layers of people
833
00:43:50.659 --> 00:43:53.170
could you go for. You could get for individual therapy,
834
00:43:53.230 --> 00:43:55.730
like we mentioned, for for yourselves or the children. You
835
00:43:55.750 --> 00:43:59.090
could get couples counseling. which you mentioned you could do before.
836
00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:02.940
And some couples counselors and FBT family-based therapy, some of
837
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.219
those individuals will also work with the family that is
838
00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:09.780
breaking up, meaning when there's the divorce. They will help
839
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.179
with that. Others will help with each separate entity. But
840
00:44:13.219 --> 00:44:15.480
those are three levels of therapy that could address those.
841
00:44:16.179 --> 00:44:20.179
Yes. And I've had families that are post-divorce, everything is signed,
842
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.400
and there are issues that have come up and that
843
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:28.409
they go as the family unit to to family therapy
844
00:44:28.429 --> 00:44:31.639
together to work through those issues. I've seen that the
845
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:35.719
newer spouses sometimes have an issue with that.
846
00:44:36.019 --> 00:44:38.340
You're not just healing the new family systems, you're healing
847
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:40.099
the past one, which is a huge part of these
848
00:44:40.179 --> 00:44:41.070
children's experience.
849
00:44:41.730 --> 00:44:45.610
Which is still a family system. My ex-husband and I
850
00:44:45.690 --> 00:44:49.699
and our two kids... what other, other significant others are,
851
00:44:50.019 --> 00:44:50.840
are not aside.
852
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:52.679
We are still a family unit.
853
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:55.300
It's, it looks different and it's got to have some
854
00:44:55.340 --> 00:44:58.139
different boundaries with significant others in it. But at the
855
00:44:58.199 --> 00:44:59.900
end of the day, that is still true. We're the
856
00:44:59.960 --> 00:45:02.420
ones that parent teacher conferences. We're the ones that are
857
00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:05.280
like sitting at every sporting thing. We're the, we're their parents.
858
00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:08.349
So we're still that, and that doesn't ever change.
859
00:45:08.429 --> 00:45:11.090
And, and you share time together as a family unit.
860
00:45:11.829 --> 00:45:14.190
That was still there regardless. And we still should, we
861
00:45:14.489 --> 00:45:22.469
still should. Like, that's also like, there's, major milestones, graduations, showers, weddings, babies,
862
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:23.340
you know?
863
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:23.739
Yeah.
864
00:45:23.780 --> 00:45:26.980
It's like, so get along because you're not getting out unless,
865
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:29.099
unless you're checking out, you're not getting out without this
866
00:45:29.139 --> 00:45:29.900
person in your life.
867
00:45:30.460 --> 00:45:32.300
Well, that's what I always say to like people, you know,
868
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:35.760
getting married is like, you're not really married, married to
869
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:38.820
somebody until you have children together and then they're with
870
00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.500
you for life.
871
00:45:40.619 --> 00:45:42.940
So learn how to communicate. Learn how to get help.
872
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.929
Because if you go at this with like swimming with
873
00:45:45.949 --> 00:45:48.150
your hands up in resistance, it's going to be 10
874
00:45:48.150 --> 00:45:51.070
times harder than finding a way to go through this
875
00:45:51.130 --> 00:45:53.190
smoother and giving up some of the crap that you're
876
00:45:53.210 --> 00:45:54.789
holding on to. And I say that because a lot
877
00:45:54.829 --> 00:45:56.530
of people are holding on to crap that prevents them
878
00:45:56.570 --> 00:45:58.969
from being amenable. Yes.
879
00:45:59.130 --> 00:46:01.590
And the only people who are paying for that are
880
00:46:01.610 --> 00:46:03.900
the kids. Like you both are paying for it, too.
881
00:46:03.980 --> 00:46:05.659
But the kids are paying the biggest price.
882
00:46:05.739 --> 00:46:08.340
Yeah. And you may not see it now, but it'll
883
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:11.710
come out. Did we cover everything, Corinne? I mean, we
884
00:46:11.730 --> 00:46:13.269
knew this would be a little more robust. Is there
885
00:46:13.289 --> 00:46:14.889
anything else we want to add before we.
886
00:46:17.929 --> 00:46:19.550
I think the only other thing I would say is
887
00:46:19.570 --> 00:46:23.110
like in deciding about parenting stuff or changing it along
888
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:27.559
the way is like do the easy pieces first. Like
889
00:46:28.539 --> 00:46:31.960
address the things you don't mind giving up. Like, you know,
890
00:46:32.019 --> 00:46:35.760
the holiday that isn't that super important to you of
891
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:39.099
the two if you've You know, if you've got one
892
00:46:39.139 --> 00:46:44.619
that is much more emotional for yourself, like speak up
893
00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:47.210
to say that you can, I'm good with you having
894
00:46:47.309 --> 00:46:49.670
this one or this part of the day of this.
895
00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:53.650
And like do the easy parts first or the things
896
00:46:53.670 --> 00:46:55.889
that you're willing to compromise with first.
897
00:46:56.590 --> 00:46:58.590
Wait on the harder stuff for last.
898
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.719
And then if it's still, you can't come up with
899
00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:05.780
a solution, seek wise counsel that is neutral to both
900
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:06.059
of you.
901
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.400
To help you sort it through. Beautiful. And we only talked,
902
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:17.429
I think, really about the psychosocial side of co-parenting. And
903
00:47:17.489 --> 00:47:20.489
maybe in the resources, we'll add resources for the logistics
904
00:47:20.550 --> 00:47:22.809
of it. I know there's schedule logistics and there's some
905
00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:25.489
other tools. But those are easy to adopt. Well, I
906
00:47:25.510 --> 00:47:27.969
should say they're easy to adopt. But you're talking about
907
00:47:28.269 --> 00:47:32.750
the really important things to prep this and to start easy.
908
00:47:32.769 --> 00:47:33.750
I like that. Yes.
909
00:47:34.170 --> 00:47:36.880
And then on any, whatever county you'd be going through
910
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.579
to do your disillusion or parenting plan or whatever, they
911
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:44.960
have a standard template that you can find on every
912
00:47:45.019 --> 00:47:49.099
court's website that says, if you can't figure it out,
913
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:51.219
this is what we will tell you you have to do.
914
00:47:52.389 --> 00:47:54.469
Including if you can't pick up and drop off at
915
00:47:54.510 --> 00:47:56.630
the other person's house, if you've got to do it somewhere,
916
00:47:56.650 --> 00:47:59.630
this is the police station or sheriff's office you go to.
917
00:47:59.710 --> 00:48:01.510
And they have a camera where you're supposed to park
918
00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:02.389
and they have the whole thing.
919
00:48:03.369 --> 00:48:07.510
The guy, my biggest thing was always, and he agreed
920
00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:10.329
with me on this is like, that is, that is,
921
00:48:10.750 --> 00:48:13.260
we are never getting to a point where we are
922
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:18.139
exchanging them in a police station parking lot, like over
923
00:48:18.179 --> 00:48:19.159
my dead body, right?
924
00:48:19.179 --> 00:48:23.059
That's for Facebook marketplace, right? When you're exchanging headphones.
925
00:48:23.500 --> 00:48:24.039
Yes.
926
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:27.119
Yes. Come on. I'm coming to you.
927
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:28.860
You're coming to me. We're meeting in the middle. We're
928
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.139
doing the thing. We're, and when they forget something, this is,
929
00:48:32.659 --> 00:48:35.980
One more little thing. Is their stuff. There's so much
930
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:40.519
arguments over the kids' stuff. You bought them this, and
931
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:44.670
now it's at the other person's house. My opinion about
932
00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:50.250
this is that the kids' items, their shoes, their coats,
933
00:48:50.289 --> 00:48:55.269
their jeans, their phones, their iPads, are theirs.
934
00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:01.679
Good. If they want the thing here, they can take
935
00:49:01.699 --> 00:49:02.619
the thing here.
936
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:07.460
There's been situations where it's like, oh, that bathing suit
937
00:49:07.500 --> 00:49:08.019
stays here.
938
00:49:08.059 --> 00:49:08.929
That's the one I bought.
939
00:49:09.179 --> 00:49:12.269
Well, imagine, you just got a brand new bathing suit
940
00:49:12.309 --> 00:49:15.389
for the beginning of the season, and you can only
941
00:49:15.530 --> 00:49:18.550
use it half the time because this parent says, it's
942
00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:19.610
not your bathing suit.
943
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:20.380
Suit.
944
00:49:20.389 --> 00:49:22.460
If you bought it for them, it's their bathing suit.
945
00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:24.559
And I will tell you, it is a big pain
946
00:49:24.579 --> 00:49:26.960
in the butt when they forget the thing and their
947
00:49:26.980 --> 00:49:30.610
school thing and whatever. And I am That is where
948
00:49:30.650 --> 00:49:33.340
they see my frustration the most. And I also say
949
00:49:33.380 --> 00:49:36.840
while I'm frustrated and annoyed that it is 930 at
950
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:39.159
night and we are loading into the car to go
951
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:40.260
to your dad's to pick up the.
952
00:49:40.219 --> 00:49:43.019
Thing you forgot. I also like to tell them as
953
00:49:43.099 --> 00:49:46.480
I am. It's annoying and I'm frustrated that this is
954
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:48.000
because they have.
955
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.320
Divorced parents who couldn't stay together. And this is the
956
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:56.300
adult's fault. It's not theirs. We try to remind them to.
957
00:49:56.670 --> 00:49:58.909
think through their things and go back and, you know,
958
00:49:58.949 --> 00:50:01.610
for what they need, but they shouldn't have to worry
959
00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:04.070
about it. They shouldn't have to worry about it. And
960
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:07.820
so I'm not going to like be mad at them
961
00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:12.019
or I'm mad at myself. I'm mad at the situation
962
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:14.239
and I'm frustrated at the inconvenience and I'm trying to
963
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:18.079
get better at even showing that, but it's, you know,
964
00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:20.519
but I'm going to, I'm going to go do it
965
00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:23.159
if it's all feasible and pick up the thing and
966
00:50:23.380 --> 00:50:25.789
drop off the thing and, Make sure they have what
967
00:50:25.809 --> 00:50:26.469
they need. Yes.
968
00:50:26.869 --> 00:50:28.650
And they're used to this. They take their stuff to
969
00:50:28.690 --> 00:50:30.449
school and bring it home. They go to hangouts and
970
00:50:30.469 --> 00:50:33.550
bring it back. They go to practice. So they can adjust, right?
971
00:50:33.590 --> 00:50:35.190
They can, over time, adjust to all this.
972
00:50:35.809 --> 00:50:37.869
They can. And they have gotten better at thinking through
973
00:50:37.909 --> 00:50:39.650
the next couple days and what they need.
974
00:50:40.769 --> 00:50:42.010
But it is like this.
975
00:50:42.329 --> 00:50:44.449
It's the stuff that I hear of like, well, I
976
00:50:44.469 --> 00:50:45.789
bought them all this stuff and then it goes to
977
00:50:45.809 --> 00:50:46.719
their moms and never comes back.
978
00:50:47.110 --> 00:50:47.800
Well, here's what.
979
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.960
Like, what happens because they're kids is not because mom
980
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:52.880
or dad is a jerk.
981
00:50:53.260 --> 00:50:53.659
It's like.
982
00:50:54.940 --> 00:50:56.659
it works out for us all the time where like,
983
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.090
I end up with a ton of pajamas and he
984
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:01.280
will have all the underwear.
985
00:51:01.550 --> 00:51:03.030
I know how it happens. I have no idea.
986
00:51:03.489 --> 00:51:07.010
But when they are low on the things, we text
987
00:51:07.070 --> 00:51:09.309
each other and he'll say, well, Eva doesn't have any
988
00:51:09.949 --> 00:51:10.909
pajamas at my house.
989
00:51:11.010 --> 00:51:14.750
I'm like, okay. And sure enough, as soon as this drawer.
990
00:51:14.550 --> 00:51:16.630
Is full at my house, that means the other stuff
991
00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:17.050
goes there.
992
00:51:17.630 --> 00:51:20.090
I load up the bag. You know where it is. Yes.
993
00:51:20.469 --> 00:51:23.130
It's like, If it's not at my house, it's at yours.
994
00:51:23.210 --> 00:51:27.250
And so if we're running low on socks here, I say, hey,
995
00:51:27.289 --> 00:51:28.349
he needs more socks here.
996
00:51:28.369 --> 00:51:32.190
And a bag comes back with some socks. You know,
997
00:51:33.010 --> 00:51:35.349
I would like if I get a divorce in the
998
00:51:35.389 --> 00:51:37.409
future and I'm co-parenting, I would like my husband to
999
00:51:37.449 --> 00:51:41.489
have ownership of all the dirty socks. All over the house.
1000
00:51:41.610 --> 00:51:43.130
I think that should be his part. And I'm going
1001
00:51:43.150 --> 00:51:46.250
to find a neutral person to write that into our plan. Yes. Well,
1002
00:51:46.630 --> 00:51:48.070
I'll tell you what I did, too, because I have
1003
00:51:48.130 --> 00:51:48.670
I have my.
1004
00:51:48.650 --> 00:51:52.230
Orphan sock bin of missing socks, you know. And so
1005
00:51:52.269 --> 00:51:54.710
the one time, like, there's all, there's, like, that are
1006
00:51:54.730 --> 00:51:57.210
just perpetual. These ones I have not found.
1007
00:51:57.530 --> 00:51:58.170
It's been a long time.
1008
00:51:58.409 --> 00:52:01.690
So I sent, because they, you know, lived with their
1009
00:52:01.710 --> 00:52:03.409
grandparents when they were dead.
1010
00:52:03.570 --> 00:52:07.519
So I said, they said, Nona has the same thing
1011
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.360
over there. And I said, well, take this bin to Nona's.
1012
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:11.599
Find the matches.
1013
00:52:12.260 --> 00:52:15.199
If there aren't, if Nona doesn't have these matches, just
1014
00:52:15.219 --> 00:52:16.969
throw all of these into the garbage.
1015
00:52:17.429 --> 00:52:18.329
Because we're all dumb.
1016
00:52:18.929 --> 00:52:20.690
Because it's been here for too long. These have all
1017
00:52:20.710 --> 00:52:22.849
been here for way too long. These socks are gone.
1018
00:52:23.389 --> 00:52:26.610
They have went into the abyss wherever the socks go
1019
00:52:26.730 --> 00:52:28.969
to die. It's a good feeling to throw out the
1020
00:52:28.989 --> 00:52:31.090
sock that keeps showing up. But I have a puppy,
1021
00:52:31.130 --> 00:52:33.139
so usually the puppy moves the socks. I can't blame
1022
00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:33.780
the kids anymore.
1023
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:35.380
Oh, yeah.
1024
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.079
Or the dryer. I just put it in the dryer. Yeah,
1025
00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:40.500
or in the dryer. Yeah. Somewhere in the laundry room.
1026
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.599
I think this is really helpful coming from a perspective
1027
00:52:43.619 --> 00:52:45.280
of someone that works with children who deal with this,
1028
00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:48.320
but someone who's dealt with it personally and professionally. It's
1029
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:50.539
a big conversation, though. I mean, we talked, what, for
1030
00:52:50.679 --> 00:52:52.739
less than an hour. I think there might even be
1031
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:54.429
a take two on this after we listen to it.
1032
00:52:54.429 --> 00:52:55.030
There's a lot here.
1033
00:52:55.690 --> 00:52:55.949
Yeah.
1034
00:52:56.389 --> 00:52:58.670
Hopefully it's a starting point. We'll put resources and whatever
1035
00:52:58.690 --> 00:53:00.550
we kind of talked about in the show notes. And
1036
00:53:00.570 --> 00:53:02.630
then also there is, for people that missed it, there's
1037
00:53:02.670 --> 00:53:04.840
the divorce podcast that we talked about before this to
1038
00:53:04.889 --> 00:53:05.900
talk about ideas for that.
1039
00:53:06.820 --> 00:53:07.059
Yes.
1040
00:53:07.219 --> 00:53:07.420
Great.
1041
00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:09.079
Awesome. Thanks for listening.
1042
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:09.980
Yeah.
1043
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:13.440
Thanks. Join us for our next episode on first responder
1044
00:53:13.460 --> 00:53:14.780
wellness for the whole person.