speaker-1: Yeah. Yousive Sheath, welcome to the First Light podcast.
speaker-0: It's good to be here. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure being around you, James.
speaker-1: ⁓ you're too kind, mate. ⁓ Yusuf, why don't you ⁓ tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?
speaker-0: I am the director of INCRA, Interior Craftsmanship. We deliver commercial projects nationwide to a great level of detail and beautiful care and craftsmanship gets involved in that.
speaker-1: Fantastic, mate. Good. We're gonna dig in a little bit more to Incro soon and all all about all that. But ⁓ what tell us a little bit about your origin and how you became a builder and what drew you into becoming a builder?
speaker-0: It's funny, like, I always think I should come up with a cooler, a cooler story for this, but it's pretty, pretty stock standard. My dad was a builder and he was a great one at that. He built Funpage magazine projects and ⁓ we grew up on the job site. It wasn't, you know, the, chores of the week weren't mopping the floors that were at this job site. we're doing the concrete ball, this job site, we're clearing it out for the tiling. And so we just grew up, you know, working the trades and I guess that led me into being a builder as much as I tried pushing away from it. I don't think my dad wanted us to be builders. We're all pretty studious, my brothers and I, we're all builders. We're all pretty studious, we all studied, high education and every job we kept landing was ⁓ somewhere. within the vicinity of the eventuality of being a builder. And the rewarding feeling of delivering a project just kept dragging us in. You dragged myself in especially and before you know it, you're a good builder and everyone's complimenting your work and it's just, why would you do anything else?
speaker-1: Good. Is that is that was there a moment, mate, where you okay, you're pushing away and then all of a sudden you're like, What am I doing? This is it.
speaker-0: Yeah. Was there a specific moment? I don't think there's a specific moment. think it was a bit of like a, you know, like I started off. So we got good marks in school, went on to university. I tried, you know, picking out some cool degree, like a double degree in business and architecture, thinking I can be like an entrepreneurial architect. I don't know. was 18. And at that point in uni, and previously we were working in the trades. We landed some good roles. The same was my older brother was a CA at a big company and I had joined a modern group. And I think it was a bit of taps on the shoulder, bit of boosting my ego whenever I was involved in some really cool projects and being involved in delivering essentially landmarks across Australia and my girlfriend who's now my wife. ⁓ She had a smile on her face and it just I think there's no specific moment but every time you hand over a radical project and you create an enjoyable journey for all parties that's the kind of reminder that you're in the right space and you're very happy and you're good at what you do. So I think it was just a continuous reminder that I'm in the right industry.
speaker-1: So from that point you then you knuckled down, you you you went all in
speaker-0: We went all in. So yeah, a years after that, um, we started our family company in Sheath and Sheath was, I guess the origin to, know, really taking a lead in the industry and, you know, taking up a bit of the market space where we were young guns, didn't know what we were doing, but, um, when you had to build, that's fine. And, um, I guess people enjoyed working with us. Our biggest priority was sticking to our core values and, and and just making an enjoyable experience for everyone involved because we really enjoyed what we did. So we needed to make sure everyone else enjoyed it as well. ⁓ Delivering a project for our first brand, was, think Bellini was our first brand. That was so cool. Walking in a shopping center with friends or family and saying, I built that. That was us, our family name built that. And one thing led to another. just, I nearly forgot the question now, but one thing led to another. we just, ⁓ Yeah, continue to down that track and yeah, I lost the pace of that question. I hope I answered it. Yeah, you did.
speaker-1: Did and it's it's more like well, it just kept dragging you in, right? And reward is the that that final reward. You go and see it, you say, Look, look what we built. Very proud of what we built. Yeah. And then word gets around and all of a sudden you're on the next one.
speaker-0: Keep dragging us in. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the word gets around and just people are tapping your back and saying, hey, can you build our project? And we're just like, yes, yes, we can. We came from fairly humble beginnings. We weren't unfortunate like other people, but we didn't expect to be at a scale where we can deliver for global brands. It just sounded very far-fetched for us. getting to that point where we're able to work with national and international brands, it just felt like... Wow, look at us, know, street kids. Yeah. know, in partnership with these brands essentially. And it just, yeah, continuously rewarding and kept bringing us deeper into the industry. And, know, your network grows, the people around you grow with you. And it felt really, really incredible. And, ⁓ you just, you never look back. You just keep driving forward and it just keeps ends up being, ends up being, you know, a rewarding experience that just triples and four times in and 10 X thing. Yeah. And yeah.
speaker-1: So you've you've moved on from Sheath, which, you know, family business and you've started Incra. You must have learned so much, especially being a family business, in there that you've now brought to, you know, the skills and developed into Incra. Can you tell us a couple of those things that you've you might have learned and, you know, sort of lessons for people who are listening that might want to do the same thing or
speaker-0: ⁓ Yes, yes, it's hard moving away from a family business. You feel like you really you do have to put everything into it and it's a family business it's your family name on the line and Moving away from that is hard. It's hard to detach from the people You know most and you learn to work with these people inside and outside of work ⁓ and I think if you were to like try find a moment of when you're ready, I think it's when you learn to Find the confidence to find your own words and your own personality not that of what is your family name and what you expected to, you know, represent for your, for your family name, but also how you represent yourself. I think if anyone, any advice for anyone that's in a family business that wants to detach and go on your own and keep the respects of everyone, which is the hardest part over, you know, ⁓ leaving a family company, it's, ⁓ find your voice, find your strengths and your abilities. Don't try compete with other people's strengths and abilities because you've really got to run your own race. And when you feel confident and you find your passion in what you believe you can deliver, that may be a different product to what you're doing with your family business. I think you're ready to just take that all the way, detach and wish everyone well and send it the way you want to send it. know, just enjoy the journey. You can build another journey separate to your families and not to say that you shouldn't work with family. Yeah, family is good, but you want to your own journey. You want to leave a legacy for your kids to look at your family business that you created for them. I think that kind of sparked it for me. Yeah, nice, mate.
speaker-1: ⁓ we'll talk a little bit more about Incro soon, but working so closely with all of the designers and, you know, amazing collaborations you've done, what what sets apart from a a a good collaboration or a frustrating one? So what what are the key elements of of a good relationship with some of the clients you've worked with?
speaker-0: Yeah, is that a question is tricky because you know, you don't want to upset people. The truth is, there's no one that needs to be upset because everyone delivers what they're ready to, you know, everyone delivers their final product. They're valuable final product. Um, a builder shouldn't be playing in design and an architect shouldn't be playing in building. But, um, when you get the sweet science of a collaboration, you get it, you make a great result. I think a bit of a thing for designers to take into account and builders is everyone is human. Everyone wants the same outcome. Everyone wants to know what are your doubts on a project? What are your hopeful outcomes and what's your vision that you really want to execute here? And if everyone's on board early on, then you're to make for a good project. is no, you know, what are the dreadful outcomes? What are the dreadful conversations? There's none of that. is a collaborative process and it's a team. ⁓ So working with designers, orders, I don't know why, struggle. And it seems like they fall out a lot. I'm lucky and very fortunate to not fall out with anyone because I think we agree early on that we want the same result. And the only way to do that is yeah, collaboration and caring for the final result.
speaker-1: Yep. No, that's that's perfect, mate. I I agree. I've seen you in action, which we'll talk more about as well in a minute. ⁓ what are the when you w when you ⁓ from a builder's perspective, what's one thing that architects or designers often overlook in a in a space?
speaker-0: Overlook, I don't think this is a technical question. I think there's a sometimes a prejudice that, you know, a builder is much like a mechanic where you're going in thinking you just need to change your brakes, but it hits you with, you know, you're gonna change your oil and you're gonna change, you know, your rear bumper and you're scared for where it leads to because builders have created a bit of a reputation for trying to take advantage of every project to make a big quick buck. I think if what designers overlook is that, like I mentioned earlier, builders and I'm talking on behalf of the good builders are human as well. They want the same outcome. They want the same result. And if you were to open up early on and trust in your builder that you want the same thing and you can talk early on on preparation and what you plan to achieve with this project. And there's no secret conversations behind. you know, talking to the client, it's just working collaboratively. I think it's often overlooked that having an open conversation on a daily, on a project is the greatest strength in delivering a project.
speaker-1: Good. when you walk into a project for the first time, what is the first thing you look for?
speaker-0: ⁓ I'd hope that walking into a project the first time I'm not discovering anything new physically. ⁓ you know, there's, obviously the concept and then there's the reality. And what I'm hoping to achieve first time walk into a project is it wouldn't be, you know, like, ⁓ this is not buildable. It's how are we going to build this? Let's, make it happen. You're finding the holes that, you know, you can't design beforehand. You can't prepare for beforehand and you just want to get on that. on site that day to work out them details so can fill in them gaps and never say no to a crazy design.
speaker-1: Now you talk a lot about ⁓ craftsmanship in detail. Yep. What does that mean to you as as Yusuf? 'Cause I know you take it very seriously. But tell us tell us your side of it.
speaker-0: ⁓ Craftsmanship and care. Craftsmanship and care is, you know, can't walk past something and think, I'll fix it later. There's none of that. is having care for your work because your name is on it. And ⁓ you can't predict the future. And the only way you can better your chances at a good future is fixing an issue then and there. If you foresee an issue happening, you discuss it and you work it out that moment. There's no fix it up later. There is fix an issue up now. Make sure this detail is perfect for the next trade in the sequence of the project to just nail it and then deliver this project home.
speaker-1: How do you get that same message to your trades? Because that's that's hard.
speaker-0: You pay him better. ⁓ It's not, yeah, it's that's, that's a real hard thing. And I guess it's, it's a bit of a, a trivial question, which every builder knows the answer to. And you know, they'd like to be proud to say, you know, our trades is the best trades and every builder has to go through kind of like a nutting process where you work with some not so good guys. ⁓ And you just got to be diligent enough to, work around it and make sure these guys are able to still achieve a better result. And that is through builder preparation. That is a clear scope of works that aligns with the drawings. That is a program that works best for everyone to create a very smooth sequence. And once you do have that prep work in place as a builder, it's hard for things to go wrong. You find a trade that isn't so good, you'll quickly figure it out and you'll make sure they're set up for the win. And then over time, you will end up working with the trades that you work with best and ⁓ you show the respect to them of giving them a program that works appropriately for them, setting them up ⁓ contractually wise, setting them up with a scope that they have a clear understanding of what they're doing that day when they get there. They will then turn to care for your project just through the respective government.
speaker-1: How do you ⁓ what what how do you ⁓ describe or separate a a high end project from an average project?
speaker-0: Well, you can't tell people their project isn't high end because a high end project isn't, you know, expensive materials. isn't always Marvel's labs and know, like, and Venetian plaster. Not every project is that a high end project isn't, you know, a dollar value. A high end project is the care put into that project. It is a good team coming in. And by team, I mean the client involved. It is a good client. is a good designer. Yeah. Good consultants, engineers coming together for, for a great final result. And the care put into a project ultimately achieves you that high value. It helps you achieve. High end project was the word. Every project is a high end project and you achieve that result, you know, through the care that you put into it.
speaker-1: Essentially every project's a high end project. So you were the builder for the S Showroom. Yeah. and I guess when I first met you was it was ⁓ w we we did a Zoom because you're you're based in S you're based in Sydney. Yeah, right. So I'd never actually met you, but you became highly recommended from their Sydney guys. Yeah. Savan. And I said, sure, let's let's do it. And ⁓ a very very first time I met you, ⁓ I thought, who's this young guy? There's some
speaker-0: Yeah, young.
speaker-1: This young guy, he's here, he's like he's telling me he's gonna change you know, do everything or you know, make this I'm like within five minutes of meeting you and you zipping around, I went, Okay, he knows what he's doing.
speaker-0: Really? I was excited. I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that. I don't think I've ever asked you a first impression.
speaker-1: I'd never met you, this young kid rocks up, you you know you say
speaker-0: Yeah, I didn't have the beard, I guess. You know, like I was so excited for this project. ⁓ it was an eight and a half hour drive. I was meant to check into the project. ⁓ Someone in the Sydney office mentioned that, hey, I think the guys at Est, are hoping to build this project pretty quick. And I was already excited for it. So instead of checking in the hotel, I drove eight and a half hours straight to this showroom. asked you to your toilet and came out and said hi. And yeah, we just started getting Cracky on and I'm also excited. And I think I hadn't expected to meet such a good person in you. That helps a lot. you you're dealing with a client that is super receptive to what is to come ahead in this project and they're excited for it as well. And yeah, it was a good first impression both ways. Good.
speaker-1: It's it's a massive job, mate. And ⁓ I guess when you first walked in, you'd seen plans and everything, but you hadn't experienced the space. And it is a massive space. And it's it's not just like a a square room. No. It's it's a it's a really odd shape. And people come down and not you'll you'll understand what I mean. But ⁓ what was your first impression when you saw the shell?
speaker-0: Yeah, so walking into this place, obviously there was a big await that we're working with Est and we only know you guys as top quality. When you talk luxury, when you talk about performance, you're thinking Est lighting. so there is a bit of wait going into this project and that was already a daunting thing to be fair with you. ⁓ But then walking into this place, it wasn't necessarily any element, specific element of this building. It was, ⁓ crap, this is a beautiful envelope that's been restored from what it was, know, a bakery at the front. And what was it at back? A hatbox. I still don't know what that means.
speaker-1: Fish. To make hat boxes in the in the old days for for the ladies.
speaker-0: I'm too young kid. Yeah. So it was like, ⁓ no, how do we not take away from this? You know, we have this beautiful design and you know, how do I not mess this up? Because this is a beautiful building and we need to deliver a result that keeps the client happy. He's obviously very attached to this beautiful building. And ⁓ that was the, that's what I was most careful for.
speaker-1: Did you did you think it was gonna be a nightmare, mate? Honestly, like did you just look at it and go, Wow, this is you know, solid brick walls. Yeah. You know.
speaker-0: Yeah, I thought it was going to be a nightmare because yeah, it was very design driven and we're working with very rigid materials that aren't they are not forgiving especially when you're trying to showcase product and you're trying to showcase, you know, gorgeous materials and junctions and so it was worrisome about how we're going to make that fine balance between you know, an old beautiful thing and some new stuff involved and so that was yeah, that was scary but ⁓ You saw, I was jumping. I was excited.
speaker-1: You're excited, mate. ⁓ and there was never an issue. Like there was never a problem and if there was a problem, it was I could see you instantly getting in touch with that person who needed to solve it and trade or whoever it was and it was done. Yeah. There was no waiting a few weeks and I like it was happening as I was telling you.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's already live. It's already live action. it's a good trade network we have, a great team.
speaker-1: Amazing craze. You I mean all the guys that worked with you, ⁓
speaker-0: Top. Top notch. They're good guys. I've only as good as his guys and his or her guys.
speaker-1: Was there anything that happened, mate, that you that you can tell me now that nearly broke the build or broke the relationship?
speaker-0: ⁓ Herman Miller chairs. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Do we tell the story? Sure. So, it was a Sunday. We're trying to catch up on work and we made it very clear to this painter when we're painting his big rake ceilings, though it's easier for you to spray these ceilings. We want you doing it. You we want you rolling and hand cutting with brush.
speaker-1: That's the one trade who maybe
speaker-0: He didn't like the sound of that, which was fine. You know, he understood the expectation and he was prepared for, what we wanted. ⁓ he was set up to paint these ceilings on a Sunday when we're catching up and I was out in the tunnel of light. You know, I was hanging the artworks or preparing to hang the artworks. I remember walking back in and thinking, ⁓ no, what's happened here? He's sprayed and he sprayed all of your furniture. And I was, yeah, I was, I was shitting bricks. I was shooting bricks thinking, James loves me. You know, what's he gonna think now? So yeah, texted you that photo straight away, told you it's going to be fixed and next morning we had cleaners there trying to refurbish or restore your chairs back to life. And that was a big oh crap moment, I guess.
speaker-1: It was sorted, mate. It was g it was it was fine. He handled it well and is what it is and yeah, that's probably the only trade he'd I mean he did a good job. So
speaker-0: job. He did a good job. Are the chairs back ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ what was one of the hardest details in the project?
speaker-0: Oh, every room has its thing. It's the door, the infinity mirror door. I think that's one of one. That was one of one. So I guess to explain to the audience, was the best way to explain it if you're not putting it up on screen, which I hope you are. It is a mirror door that is 2.4 wide, 2.7 tall.
speaker-1: There's a lot. Yeah, a lot of detail here. I still don't know how they got it in that through the door.
speaker-0: water wall slab to ceiling. It spins 360 from a center pivot. It is an 18 week lead time to work with Fritz Jürgen for that pivot. And they need to know the exact weight that it's going to be like, you know, the exact finished way. So we to do some clever engineering and try to work out how to build this out of six mil aluminium. So it's not too heavy. How to build a skeleton frame that doesn't twist or bow to pop off a mirror. and then calculate the weight of toughened 10 mil mirror that is full scale, huge panel. ⁓ I think I got the weight right. It's still up there. Has it? Yeah. That was a scary detail, but it was so fun. I think everyone was excited to see that door work. There's nothing like it.
speaker-1: Year and a half. That door is one of my favorite parts of the tour. Like that room is amazing. But so taking people through that and the element of surprise is probably one of my favorite things to take people on because you what I still hear the gas.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I'm sure. sure. I knew, every time I bring someone in here from Sydney or from another state, the first thing we do is let's go show you this. It's pretty crazy. yeah, it's a special feature in this project. Nearly broke the build if it went wrong, but yeah, guess planning went right.
speaker-1: Well I I was y one of my questions is was there something that you haven't told me that nearly you know, that I probably should know or do it.
speaker-0: Something that I haven't told you. on the project that nearly messed up. Well, there was, I feel like you were super receptive to ideas. So if there was anything I foresaw that was going to be an issue, I just spoke to you about it.
speaker-1: I yeah, I don't think there was a time that something happened and I didn't know about. Like to be honest, like you all always very forthcoming, say, Hey, this this isn't working how it's been drawn or whatever it is. ⁓ so so that'll give you a top
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. It was usually a planned in place. You know, I won't sleep at night.
speaker-1: Is there a detail you think goes a little bit unnoticed? Like it's something you've had to do that that's people don't r don't even know, but you had to spend a lot of time on it? Apart from the door maybe. That's I mean a lot.
speaker-0: I can't mention the door anymore. thing that goes unnoticed, I think, the window shrouds. Everyone loves a beautiful window shroud, powder coated steel, it encases the window and directs natural light in very well. ⁓ James Zegari doesn't like standard stuff. He wanted it to be able to be dismantled so you can plug in table lights. That's true. Power it in and then closed up. So it looks like a finished product. Yeah. That was, that's a detail. I do think everyone walks by and just thinks it's a normal window shroud. Yeah. Yeah. That was the idea. I hated you for the idea. Yeah. And that was fun.
speaker-1: You wouldn't notice. Yeah, yeah. And that's the idea. That was That's what I mean. That was a kind of on the fly hey Would wouldn't it be cool if this actually slid out? I could plug all my leads in and close it again. 'Cause there's nothing worse than a messy
speaker-0: Exactly right.
speaker-1: So once I got that message through, you're like, Well, let's just try
speaker-0: Yeah, let's just try it because I guess you don't want to say no to you know something that Could make you very happy and could better the performance of your showroom of your space and you don't want to say no to an idea. Yeah ⁓
speaker-1: And we ended up doing the same idea in the other end. Yeah. Where we had Venetian plaster. And I said, Let's do the same thing. And you're like, hang on. ⁓
speaker-0: Not again. you sure? Yeah, that happened. That was fun.
speaker-1: the showroom itself was very design ⁓ driven. So Christopher Elliott did the design. You had never met Chris either. I've worked with Chris on our first showroom and I think, you know, both Chris and I, our guards are a little bit up because you know, the first thing usually is you wanna come in and cut costs and you know, change things. So yeah, but and we expect it, but we were like, Well you we can't because it's been designed to a certain look and feel. And I remember sitting with Chris and we're like, Hey Chris, we're gonna change this and
speaker-0: usual builder so
speaker-1: And that and and Chris guard got up. ⁓ but I wasn't long through that discussion where we went he went, Okay, I get it. Yeah. Things we had to change. Yeah. ⁓ you know, for because it worked maybe a little bit better in in real life, right? Yeah. So
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, of course, of course. I'm Yeah. Yeah, we talk about value engineering often. We offer it to clients and I think the phrase has become more so, let's substitute this product for this product because it can save you money. ⁓ Value engineering really, to me at least, is providing better value for the same scope. ⁓ In that instance, you can have just a window shroud. or you can have a Windows Shroud that opens up and serves a better purpose. And when you're substituting it, yeah, it's not always for cost. It's substituting for a better performance, whether it's longevity or aesthetic, ⁓ it's better suited for that client for that project. So that's value engineering at play. ⁓
speaker-1: couple of ⁓ spots where that happened was upstairs in the lights out area. Yeah. We had for budget, we we put we were gonna put fake grass and you were horrified. And by the time you got quotes 'cause we wanna put a decent brand and things like that, so that you had it quoted and you said, you know what, James, for the the same price, I can actually put a timber floor, a brand new decking in, which would would have suited much so much better. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. I had the heart to. Timber decade, yeah.
speaker-1: And I'm so glad you told me that because it looks amazing.
speaker-0: ⁓ it's incredible. think that was, it wasn't a one shot thing. It was a bit of a parlay because there was also a VJ board across the room there. Yes. And I figured the cost of this VJ board, plus it's synthetic grass, we can probably achieve what you want with something a bit more suited to your product, which was a look-alike render finish on the walls that saved a ton on the walls. And then... we can then spare that same budget to creating a timber deck with a beautiful hardwood timber and ⁓ cost neutral.
speaker-1: So that that wall detail that you did, ⁓ Chicks of the Trade, and you've you've got this beautiful, you know, texture running through it and it lets our lights play beautifully against and although the shadows is exactly what we needed. ⁓ but that's that's I mean, that just came from that conversation of yeah, you know, what else can we do here to make this, you know, work. Yeah. And and your idea was a a trick that you'd use on a few projects and that's the value of talking to someone who has the experience and and knows what They're looking at and knows that it can be done and look
speaker-0: Good. Yeah, thank you. And I think as well, it's not just the value of someone, I guess, with a bit of knowledge, it's also the value of that open collaborative discussion, I was mentioning earlier. It's an open collaborative discussion. Drop the guard. Everyone here wants the same result.
speaker-1: Was there a big ⁓ technical construction challenge here, apart from the door?
speaker-0: Apart from the door, I guess no, it wasn't anything specific that was really technical. I think Mitch will be upset at me because all the electrical work was obviously it's a lighting showroom. That's a separate podcast. Mitch has got plenty of You can save that for his podcast. Other than that, think it was just having the technical thing about this project is you had so many beautiful finishes that needed to work out and nothing can overpower the other. So I think the program of works where getting the Venetian guys in after the floor polishing, whether or not that's a good idea, or getting the joinery done before or after these certain ⁓ wall details. And the sequence of planning was the most technical kind of pressure on this project ⁓ to make sure the final finish, every junction, every detail just worked out. Beautiful.
speaker-1: Is there a moment that you when you come back and visit, you come every few months? Is there somewhere that you are so proud of one spot that you just like, love that? ⁓
speaker-0: Lights out room. It's always going to be lights out. It's just always going to be that outdoor area. We built for the audience, I guess it's an outdoor area. And when you're there, you feel like you're outdoor in a beautiful garden, but you're inside Richmond upstairs in a closed room. we're able to, yeah, yeah. With Christopher Elliott, able to achieve a space that just really ⁓ hit the agenda. And it's an awesome space to be in. Everyone's wowed when they're there.
speaker-1: Which trade do you think out of all the trades you used on the project should get the most credit? Might get you in trouble here.
speaker-0: That's a hard one.
speaker-1: ⁓ 'cause it's a massive collaboration, mate. Anyone from the you know, doing the you know, the framing right through to the plaster work and
speaker-0: Yeah, was a lot of electrical. The framing guys moved quick. I don't think you would have seen anyone move as quick as our guys move. So fast. know, framed hundreds of square meters in a day.
speaker-1: That was that was literally overnight came in and the walls were framed. You know, like
speaker-0: Yeah, was... It shocks a lot of people. We get ahead of program with them. ⁓ Everyone had their piece. I think the hero of every project that goes unnoticed, which I'd like to shine a light on them is I think rubbish remover lists, people that handle your waste. Sure. If a site's not clean, it's not going to be a good project. A site needs to maintain cleanliness so everyone can feel like they can respect their own work. ⁓ I think Sam. He owns all the vintage stores. ⁓ He removes all of our debris and ⁓ ensures the site stays tidy and safe. He's the hero of the project and of this project as well because we had that many guys working in to finish this project in eight weeks and without him it wouldn't have happened.
speaker-1: ⁓ he's a legend, mate. ⁓ and I mean t not to mention, of course, our friends at Venetian Plaza gallery ⁓
speaker-0: Don't worry about those guys. They've got enough fame.
speaker-1: People see and you know that lets the light play against the joinery and you know, there's so many things. ⁓ you know, the stone there's ev everything comes into play. What you can't see is all the cabling that Mitch has done. So
speaker-0: Exactly. ⁓ gosh, you can do so much with it. So I'd love to say Mitch, but I think you can give more credit to Ease of Work than I can.
speaker-1: Mm totally. No, no, no. See we we see what's going on behind the
speaker-0: Yeah, I tried to close my eyes and just stay there. Sorry, can I ask a Venetian plaster? It's a natural material. How has it been for you when it comes to playing with light? Like, could you?
speaker-1: ⁓ Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. It's ⁓ we love, you know, sure. We use ⁓ our lights against plaster walls all the time. But to have something like a Venetian finish to play with, you know, with all that movement and yeah, all that texture. The light just falls beautifully against it and it just creates moments. And we've just finished the front wall. It's you know, we we had Yeah, so stage two was doing that front section which is now ⁓ gonna
speaker-0: ⁓ concave Recently.
speaker-1: the home for our Allied Maker brand. And the two wall lights we've got in there by themselves until everything arrives are just like these massive heroes just in that front room as you walk in. And they literally stop. Like you stop.
speaker-0: Yeah, we saw it today. Yeah, we saw it today and ends up a conversation every single time when you walk past it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you like that material because I think I was a bit nervous introducing that material to this project and I'm glad you got to meet Stefan. Yeah. He's a good guy. Very good guy.
speaker-1: Okay. ⁓ We did some other work with you recently back with the showroom and there was zero hesitation in getting you back in and involved again. And I will do it again just for people listening. If if you are doing a project, whether it's a retail fit out or whatever, what you do. ⁓ yeah, I I highly recommend
speaker-0: Anything commercial. Thank you.
speaker-1: But and if you want to see useless work, come and have a look here at the showroom. ⁓ mate, skipping past that now, what what a ⁓ what's something that architects or designers often draw that's actually really, really hard to build?
speaker-0: everything. ⁓ God. What's hot. You know what? came up recently, actually, this conversation. ⁓ Architects often, you know, and whatever they want to design, I want to build, right? But often they want flush finishes with products that aren't built to be flush. ⁓ You saw on our recent project. ⁓ so the tricky thing then becomes like, then You know, the tricky thing becomes how do you remodel a product to suit the design intent? And that happens often where a client wants to make a non-manageable product then suit their design intent. from there, you're just gonna be super, super diligent in trying to work something out to achieve that result. Even if it is alternating that product for a life or life, so long as you put something forward that makes sense and maintains and protects that design intent. ⁓ The flush details are tricky when it's not meant to be flushed. When it's not meant to be flushed. yeah. I think that's a hard detail that happens consistently.
speaker-1: Yeah. I think ⁓ suppliers are getting better at it, right? They're bringing out products now that are designed to in to be flush. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah Yeah, almost everything in terms of lighting. Yeah, yeah, everything anything true body Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it gets very tricky. because you can always, to be fair with you, you can make anything flush by setting plaster to it. But you don't want it to crack. You don't want it to move and create something like that's an eyesore. And if you do care for longevity, you...
speaker-1: Yeah, PowerPoints. ⁓
speaker-0: it often becomes tricky, but you just gotta work it out. Everything is just working it out.
speaker-1: What's something designers do do that actually makes a builder's life easier?
speaker-0: Ugh.
speaker-1: More detail, less detail.
speaker-0: All the details they want, that's fine. I think it's just early planning, like get the builder involved earlier. ⁓ The builder's not there, hopefully they're there to make money, especially early on. You bring them in, you'll make your project easier because ⁓ they're there planning and procuring for the project early on and trying to really understand the essence of the design. so yeah, bringing an early collaboration in is, I think, the utmost important factor.
speaker-1: ⁓ so talking now back about Incra, what are the ⁓ the types of projects you're most excited about working with?
speaker-0: The types of projects. think over the last five years, you saw hospitality become brave again. Hospitality projects have been super, super fun and working with designers that are willing to be brave and courageous in creating something special. We saw it with the Sydney fish markets and everyone was trying to outdo one another with something brave and ended up working out beautifully. Right now it's like a huge icon in Sydney and they're the exciting projects, the guys that are willing to be brave. and a brave builder wanting to come on board and deliver those projects. I think that's the most exciting thing going on right now. We love jumping on. We love building those.
speaker-1: What's the plan for Increve? Next five to ten years? What's what do you think?
speaker-0: For Incra, ⁓ I think a lot of the industry that I've dealt with know me for my core values and ⁓ they do trust in my build methodology and I do hope that in five, 10 years, we're a household name that is truly trusted as the builders that deliver the same philosophy as myself. The handy thing about starting this business is I get to kind of... choose and hire mini versions of me. ⁓ It's not necessarily ⁓ like everyone the same, that's the same. It's just, I'm hoping to achieve a company that is in five to 10 years time, trusted and respected to deliver the same results that I've always achieved and everyone's firing on all cylinders and care as much as I do. ⁓ And if we're known to be that company that really cares. I think that's the most important thing. If at a cafe someone says, yeah, this builder cares for the project he delivered, that's what I want for Ingra.
speaker-1: you were walking through here today after a year and a half pointing things out that I'm that I've I I don't care. You know, like it's out five mil. Like we'll get that adjusted. Yeah. It's been a year and a half, man.
speaker-0: Yeah, I guess, yeah, it's a reflection of us. a reflection of us. It's a reflection of our relationship. Yeah. I guess I hope that, yeah, the testimony.
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ there were things, right? There was always things, but as soon as I flag with you, it was done. So but even that's what I mean, even a year and a half later.
speaker-0: Resolve shadow here. Yeah, you know, I'll play it out here. Hopefully in five years time, this place will definitely still be standing, hope, if you don't expand further. yeah, everything will still be looking beautiful. And I'm sure I'll still be picking out things that haven't lasted.
speaker-1: What's ⁓ a couple of general questions? We we'll we'll we'll we'll wind it up in a minute. but what's your favorite material to work with?
speaker-0: My favourite material to work with is, have to the Venetian plaster. There you go, I knew you were going to say that. I you'd say that. I tried to think of something else but it's Venetian plaster, always. Something that looks pretty cool. Yeah.
speaker-1: You can make pretty special by that extra code and then it depends on which version they use and you know, like there's so many different finishes, right?
speaker-0: It's incredible, the process, like it's very, you know, it's an old trade. It's, know, it's hundreds of years old and it's beautiful. The fact they're able to get marble onto a wall and then formed into one piece, it's pretty cool. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ what's the most underrated trade on a project?
speaker-0: Miss on the Reddit trade.
speaker-1: Probably similar my last question with the bingo, right? The the clean up guy.
speaker-0: It's I'm sorry I'm going to be the same guy, but it's Sam. You can't build projects without people like that. In Sydney, work with Rubbish Bros and Joel, and Josh. They're just the best two brothers ever. They've got an awesome career as well. They're the heroes of every project.
speaker-1: If you could if you go back to day one of now that you've finished this project, go back to day one when we first walked through that door and change something, would you change anything?
speaker-0: Would I change anything? No, I guess if I saw myself at that front door and I had to give him a piece of advice before he walks in, it'll be take the pressure off your shoulders. You're dealing with the right people. here wants to, like everyone here is a great person and you're going to deliver a great project and it's probably one of the very few projects that is something that I genuinely smile thinking about. looking back because not only did we create such a beautiful project, everyone involved is proud of it and we made lifelong friends between myself and you, Mitch. On the first day I was here he invited me to his birthday. The only advice I'd be is to just calm your nerves. This is going to be a project that's be a memorable one for you.
speaker-1: I if if I could say anything it would be trust the trust that young guy walking in because I did I did within within minutes. It was you know, I could see you just taking action and and ⁓ mate, I'll just yeah. I there wasn't a moment along the journey that was like ⁓ my god. No, no, no. ⁓ but the thing is I had been in that position before. Yeah. ⁓ we did another showroom and you know, I was constantly on edge.
speaker-0: Yeah, sure, should reverse that question. Never put you in danger.
speaker-1: You know, yeah. ⁓ and it was the first one and maybe it was easier this time 'cause we've already done it. But yeah. but no, so trust the process. Any any advice to, you know, people listening is, you know, work as close as you can to the builder ⁓ and share as much information as possible because it just makes your life easier.
speaker-0: your life so much easier. ⁓ Do you feel like your previous builder you dealt with, did he, do feel like he lacked the care? ⁓
speaker-1: yeah, I I guess. there was no detail conversations and you know, it's like how can we save money? And so well hang on. We it's gotta look like our brand, right? We we wn we can't just rip out that black sink and put a stainless steel sink in that's been designed as black 'cause it's you know. So there's a lo yeah. Yeah, unfortunately it it was a turned out beautiful and it was looked amazing. But yeah, it looked amazing. But ⁓
speaker-0: It's unfortunate,
speaker-1: But
speaker-0: it was a stressful process. an experience and like, I don't know how people want to live with not creating an enjoyable experience for everyone that's involved.
speaker-1: There's no need to not have it. Yusuf, thanks so much. Thanks for your time on the PodMade and hope I hope people are listening. I don't know. You're like probably the sixth episode in or seventh episode in, so
speaker-0: Thank you so much for having me. Can I tell you a funny story before I leave? Tell me. So like this is something that I want to tell you for the first time. You're only going to hear on this podcast. You know that first day I walked in, I walked in, shook your hand, rushed to the toilet. Yeah, It was close to nine hours of driving. Yeah. Turns out there was no toilet paper. And I didn't even met you yet. Yes. So I called Sam. He was in Hawthorne. He came and helped me out. Is that right? Yeah, that's a funny story for you know, that is a funny story. That toilet paper that one time every other time has been toilet paper. Yeah, so that was a funny one for you. Good. There you go. Well, thank you.
speaker-1: Funny story. ⁓ Thanks again, mate. ⁓ and yeah, gosh. Yeah.
speaker-0: Get you on the next one. Yeah, we'll get you on my podcast. Okay, I haven't built one yet, but happy to build one for myself and have you on first guest. Love it. We'll see. Thank you so much. Thanks. I really appreciate that. Good stuff. Thank you.
speaker-0: It's good to be here. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure being around you, James.
speaker-1: ⁓ you're too kind, mate. ⁓ Yusuf, why don't you ⁓ tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?
speaker-0: I am the director of INCRA, Interior Craftsmanship. We deliver commercial projects nationwide to a great level of detail and beautiful care and craftsmanship gets involved in that.
speaker-1: Fantastic, mate. Good. We're gonna dig in a little bit more to Incro soon and all all about all that. But ⁓ what tell us a little bit about your origin and how you became a builder and what drew you into becoming a builder?
speaker-0: It's funny, like, I always think I should come up with a cooler, a cooler story for this, but it's pretty, pretty stock standard. My dad was a builder and he was a great one at that. He built Funpage magazine projects and ⁓ we grew up on the job site. It wasn't, you know, the, chores of the week weren't mopping the floors that were at this job site. we're doing the concrete ball, this job site, we're clearing it out for the tiling. And so we just grew up, you know, working the trades and I guess that led me into being a builder as much as I tried pushing away from it. I don't think my dad wanted us to be builders. We're all pretty studious, my brothers and I, we're all builders. We're all pretty studious, we all studied, high education and every job we kept landing was ⁓ somewhere. within the vicinity of the eventuality of being a builder. And the rewarding feeling of delivering a project just kept dragging us in. You dragged myself in especially and before you know it, you're a good builder and everyone's complimenting your work and it's just, why would you do anything else?
speaker-1: Good. Is that is that was there a moment, mate, where you okay, you're pushing away and then all of a sudden you're like, What am I doing? This is it.
speaker-0: Yeah. Was there a specific moment? I don't think there's a specific moment. think it was a bit of like a, you know, like I started off. So we got good marks in school, went on to university. I tried, you know, picking out some cool degree, like a double degree in business and architecture, thinking I can be like an entrepreneurial architect. I don't know. was 18. And at that point in uni, and previously we were working in the trades. We landed some good roles. The same was my older brother was a CA at a big company and I had joined a modern group. And I think it was a bit of taps on the shoulder, bit of boosting my ego whenever I was involved in some really cool projects and being involved in delivering essentially landmarks across Australia and my girlfriend who's now my wife. ⁓ She had a smile on her face and it just I think there's no specific moment but every time you hand over a radical project and you create an enjoyable journey for all parties that's the kind of reminder that you're in the right space and you're very happy and you're good at what you do. So I think it was just a continuous reminder that I'm in the right industry.
speaker-1: So from that point you then you knuckled down, you you you went all in
speaker-0: We went all in. So yeah, a years after that, um, we started our family company in Sheath and Sheath was, I guess the origin to, know, really taking a lead in the industry and, you know, taking up a bit of the market space where we were young guns, didn't know what we were doing, but, um, when you had to build, that's fine. And, um, I guess people enjoyed working with us. Our biggest priority was sticking to our core values and, and and just making an enjoyable experience for everyone involved because we really enjoyed what we did. So we needed to make sure everyone else enjoyed it as well. ⁓ Delivering a project for our first brand, was, think Bellini was our first brand. That was so cool. Walking in a shopping center with friends or family and saying, I built that. That was us, our family name built that. And one thing led to another. just, I nearly forgot the question now, but one thing led to another. we just, ⁓ Yeah, continue to down that track and yeah, I lost the pace of that question. I hope I answered it. Yeah, you did.
speaker-1: Did and it's it's more like well, it just kept dragging you in, right? And reward is the that that final reward. You go and see it, you say, Look, look what we built. Very proud of what we built. Yeah. And then word gets around and all of a sudden you're on the next one.
speaker-0: Keep dragging us in. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the word gets around and just people are tapping your back and saying, hey, can you build our project? And we're just like, yes, yes, we can. We came from fairly humble beginnings. We weren't unfortunate like other people, but we didn't expect to be at a scale where we can deliver for global brands. It just sounded very far-fetched for us. getting to that point where we're able to work with national and international brands, it just felt like... Wow, look at us, know, street kids. Yeah. know, in partnership with these brands essentially. And it just, yeah, continuously rewarding and kept bringing us deeper into the industry. And, know, your network grows, the people around you grow with you. And it felt really, really incredible. And, ⁓ you just, you never look back. You just keep driving forward and it just keeps ends up being, ends up being, you know, a rewarding experience that just triples and four times in and 10 X thing. Yeah. And yeah.
speaker-1: So you've you've moved on from Sheath, which, you know, family business and you've started Incra. You must have learned so much, especially being a family business, in there that you've now brought to, you know, the skills and developed into Incra. Can you tell us a couple of those things that you've you might have learned and, you know, sort of lessons for people who are listening that might want to do the same thing or
speaker-0: ⁓ Yes, yes, it's hard moving away from a family business. You feel like you really you do have to put everything into it and it's a family business it's your family name on the line and Moving away from that is hard. It's hard to detach from the people You know most and you learn to work with these people inside and outside of work ⁓ and I think if you were to like try find a moment of when you're ready, I think it's when you learn to Find the confidence to find your own words and your own personality not that of what is your family name and what you expected to, you know, represent for your, for your family name, but also how you represent yourself. I think if anyone, any advice for anyone that's in a family business that wants to detach and go on your own and keep the respects of everyone, which is the hardest part over, you know, ⁓ leaving a family company, it's, ⁓ find your voice, find your strengths and your abilities. Don't try compete with other people's strengths and abilities because you've really got to run your own race. And when you feel confident and you find your passion in what you believe you can deliver, that may be a different product to what you're doing with your family business. I think you're ready to just take that all the way, detach and wish everyone well and send it the way you want to send it. know, just enjoy the journey. You can build another journey separate to your families and not to say that you shouldn't work with family. Yeah, family is good, but you want to your own journey. You want to leave a legacy for your kids to look at your family business that you created for them. I think that kind of sparked it for me. Yeah, nice, mate.
speaker-1: ⁓ we'll talk a little bit more about Incro soon, but working so closely with all of the designers and, you know, amazing collaborations you've done, what what sets apart from a a a good collaboration or a frustrating one? So what what are the key elements of of a good relationship with some of the clients you've worked with?
speaker-0: Yeah, is that a question is tricky because you know, you don't want to upset people. The truth is, there's no one that needs to be upset because everyone delivers what they're ready to, you know, everyone delivers their final product. They're valuable final product. Um, a builder shouldn't be playing in design and an architect shouldn't be playing in building. But, um, when you get the sweet science of a collaboration, you get it, you make a great result. I think a bit of a thing for designers to take into account and builders is everyone is human. Everyone wants the same outcome. Everyone wants to know what are your doubts on a project? What are your hopeful outcomes and what's your vision that you really want to execute here? And if everyone's on board early on, then you're to make for a good project. is no, you know, what are the dreadful outcomes? What are the dreadful conversations? There's none of that. is a collaborative process and it's a team. ⁓ So working with designers, orders, I don't know why, struggle. And it seems like they fall out a lot. I'm lucky and very fortunate to not fall out with anyone because I think we agree early on that we want the same result. And the only way to do that is yeah, collaboration and caring for the final result.
speaker-1: Yep. No, that's that's perfect, mate. I I agree. I've seen you in action, which we'll talk more about as well in a minute. ⁓ what are the when you w when you ⁓ from a builder's perspective, what's one thing that architects or designers often overlook in a in a space?
speaker-0: Overlook, I don't think this is a technical question. I think there's a sometimes a prejudice that, you know, a builder is much like a mechanic where you're going in thinking you just need to change your brakes, but it hits you with, you know, you're gonna change your oil and you're gonna change, you know, your rear bumper and you're scared for where it leads to because builders have created a bit of a reputation for trying to take advantage of every project to make a big quick buck. I think if what designers overlook is that, like I mentioned earlier, builders and I'm talking on behalf of the good builders are human as well. They want the same outcome. They want the same result. And if you were to open up early on and trust in your builder that you want the same thing and you can talk early on on preparation and what you plan to achieve with this project. And there's no secret conversations behind. you know, talking to the client, it's just working collaboratively. I think it's often overlooked that having an open conversation on a daily, on a project is the greatest strength in delivering a project.
speaker-1: Good. when you walk into a project for the first time, what is the first thing you look for?
speaker-0: ⁓ I'd hope that walking into a project the first time I'm not discovering anything new physically. ⁓ you know, there's, obviously the concept and then there's the reality. And what I'm hoping to achieve first time walk into a project is it wouldn't be, you know, like, ⁓ this is not buildable. It's how are we going to build this? Let's, make it happen. You're finding the holes that, you know, you can't design beforehand. You can't prepare for beforehand and you just want to get on that. on site that day to work out them details so can fill in them gaps and never say no to a crazy design.
speaker-1: Now you talk a lot about ⁓ craftsmanship in detail. Yep. What does that mean to you as as Yusuf? 'Cause I know you take it very seriously. But tell us tell us your side of it.
speaker-0: ⁓ Craftsmanship and care. Craftsmanship and care is, you know, can't walk past something and think, I'll fix it later. There's none of that. is having care for your work because your name is on it. And ⁓ you can't predict the future. And the only way you can better your chances at a good future is fixing an issue then and there. If you foresee an issue happening, you discuss it and you work it out that moment. There's no fix it up later. There is fix an issue up now. Make sure this detail is perfect for the next trade in the sequence of the project to just nail it and then deliver this project home.
speaker-1: How do you get that same message to your trades? Because that's that's hard.
speaker-0: You pay him better. ⁓ It's not, yeah, it's that's, that's a real hard thing. And I guess it's, it's a bit of a, a trivial question, which every builder knows the answer to. And you know, they'd like to be proud to say, you know, our trades is the best trades and every builder has to go through kind of like a nutting process where you work with some not so good guys. ⁓ And you just got to be diligent enough to, work around it and make sure these guys are able to still achieve a better result. And that is through builder preparation. That is a clear scope of works that aligns with the drawings. That is a program that works best for everyone to create a very smooth sequence. And once you do have that prep work in place as a builder, it's hard for things to go wrong. You find a trade that isn't so good, you'll quickly figure it out and you'll make sure they're set up for the win. And then over time, you will end up working with the trades that you work with best and ⁓ you show the respect to them of giving them a program that works appropriately for them, setting them up ⁓ contractually wise, setting them up with a scope that they have a clear understanding of what they're doing that day when they get there. They will then turn to care for your project just through the respective government.
speaker-1: How do you ⁓ what what how do you ⁓ describe or separate a a high end project from an average project?
speaker-0: Well, you can't tell people their project isn't high end because a high end project isn't, you know, expensive materials. isn't always Marvel's labs and know, like, and Venetian plaster. Not every project is that a high end project isn't, you know, a dollar value. A high end project is the care put into that project. It is a good team coming in. And by team, I mean the client involved. It is a good client. is a good designer. Yeah. Good consultants, engineers coming together for, for a great final result. And the care put into a project ultimately achieves you that high value. It helps you achieve. High end project was the word. Every project is a high end project and you achieve that result, you know, through the care that you put into it.
speaker-1: Essentially every project's a high end project. So you were the builder for the S Showroom. Yeah. and I guess when I first met you was it was ⁓ w we we did a Zoom because you're you're based in S you're based in Sydney. Yeah, right. So I'd never actually met you, but you became highly recommended from their Sydney guys. Yeah. Savan. And I said, sure, let's let's do it. And ⁓ a very very first time I met you, ⁓ I thought, who's this young guy? There's some
speaker-0: Yeah, young.
speaker-1: This young guy, he's here, he's like he's telling me he's gonna change you know, do everything or you know, make this I'm like within five minutes of meeting you and you zipping around, I went, Okay, he knows what he's doing.
speaker-0: Really? I was excited. I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that. I don't think I've ever asked you a first impression.
speaker-1: I'd never met you, this young kid rocks up, you you know you say
speaker-0: Yeah, I didn't have the beard, I guess. You know, like I was so excited for this project. ⁓ it was an eight and a half hour drive. I was meant to check into the project. ⁓ Someone in the Sydney office mentioned that, hey, I think the guys at Est, are hoping to build this project pretty quick. And I was already excited for it. So instead of checking in the hotel, I drove eight and a half hours straight to this showroom. asked you to your toilet and came out and said hi. And yeah, we just started getting Cracky on and I'm also excited. And I think I hadn't expected to meet such a good person in you. That helps a lot. you you're dealing with a client that is super receptive to what is to come ahead in this project and they're excited for it as well. And yeah, it was a good first impression both ways. Good.
speaker-1: It's it's a massive job, mate. And ⁓ I guess when you first walked in, you'd seen plans and everything, but you hadn't experienced the space. And it is a massive space. And it's it's not just like a a square room. No. It's it's a it's a really odd shape. And people come down and not you'll you'll understand what I mean. But ⁓ what was your first impression when you saw the shell?
speaker-0: Yeah, so walking into this place, obviously there was a big await that we're working with Est and we only know you guys as top quality. When you talk luxury, when you talk about performance, you're thinking Est lighting. so there is a bit of wait going into this project and that was already a daunting thing to be fair with you. ⁓ But then walking into this place, it wasn't necessarily any element, specific element of this building. It was, ⁓ crap, this is a beautiful envelope that's been restored from what it was, know, a bakery at the front. And what was it at back? A hatbox. I still don't know what that means.
speaker-1: Fish. To make hat boxes in the in the old days for for the ladies.
speaker-0: I'm too young kid. Yeah. So it was like, ⁓ no, how do we not take away from this? You know, we have this beautiful design and you know, how do I not mess this up? Because this is a beautiful building and we need to deliver a result that keeps the client happy. He's obviously very attached to this beautiful building. And ⁓ that was the, that's what I was most careful for.
speaker-1: Did you did you think it was gonna be a nightmare, mate? Honestly, like did you just look at it and go, Wow, this is you know, solid brick walls. Yeah. You know.
speaker-0: Yeah, I thought it was going to be a nightmare because yeah, it was very design driven and we're working with very rigid materials that aren't they are not forgiving especially when you're trying to showcase product and you're trying to showcase, you know, gorgeous materials and junctions and so it was worrisome about how we're going to make that fine balance between you know, an old beautiful thing and some new stuff involved and so that was yeah, that was scary but ⁓ You saw, I was jumping. I was excited.
speaker-1: You're excited, mate. ⁓ and there was never an issue. Like there was never a problem and if there was a problem, it was I could see you instantly getting in touch with that person who needed to solve it and trade or whoever it was and it was done. Yeah. There was no waiting a few weeks and I like it was happening as I was telling you.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's already live. It's already live action. it's a good trade network we have, a great team.
speaker-1: Amazing craze. You I mean all the guys that worked with you, ⁓
speaker-0: Top. Top notch. They're good guys. I've only as good as his guys and his or her guys.
speaker-1: Was there anything that happened, mate, that you that you can tell me now that nearly broke the build or broke the relationship?
speaker-0: ⁓ Herman Miller chairs. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Do we tell the story? Sure. So, it was a Sunday. We're trying to catch up on work and we made it very clear to this painter when we're painting his big rake ceilings, though it's easier for you to spray these ceilings. We want you doing it. You we want you rolling and hand cutting with brush.
speaker-1: That's the one trade who maybe
speaker-0: He didn't like the sound of that, which was fine. You know, he understood the expectation and he was prepared for, what we wanted. ⁓ he was set up to paint these ceilings on a Sunday when we're catching up and I was out in the tunnel of light. You know, I was hanging the artworks or preparing to hang the artworks. I remember walking back in and thinking, ⁓ no, what's happened here? He's sprayed and he sprayed all of your furniture. And I was, yeah, I was, I was shitting bricks. I was shooting bricks thinking, James loves me. You know, what's he gonna think now? So yeah, texted you that photo straight away, told you it's going to be fixed and next morning we had cleaners there trying to refurbish or restore your chairs back to life. And that was a big oh crap moment, I guess.
speaker-1: It was sorted, mate. It was g it was it was fine. He handled it well and is what it is and yeah, that's probably the only trade he'd I mean he did a good job. So
speaker-0: job. He did a good job. Are the chairs back ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ what was one of the hardest details in the project?
speaker-0: Oh, every room has its thing. It's the door, the infinity mirror door. I think that's one of one. That was one of one. So I guess to explain to the audience, was the best way to explain it if you're not putting it up on screen, which I hope you are. It is a mirror door that is 2.4 wide, 2.7 tall.
speaker-1: There's a lot. Yeah, a lot of detail here. I still don't know how they got it in that through the door.
speaker-0: water wall slab to ceiling. It spins 360 from a center pivot. It is an 18 week lead time to work with Fritz Jürgen for that pivot. And they need to know the exact weight that it's going to be like, you know, the exact finished way. So we to do some clever engineering and try to work out how to build this out of six mil aluminium. So it's not too heavy. How to build a skeleton frame that doesn't twist or bow to pop off a mirror. and then calculate the weight of toughened 10 mil mirror that is full scale, huge panel. ⁓ I think I got the weight right. It's still up there. Has it? Yeah. That was a scary detail, but it was so fun. I think everyone was excited to see that door work. There's nothing like it.
speaker-1: Year and a half. That door is one of my favorite parts of the tour. Like that room is amazing. But so taking people through that and the element of surprise is probably one of my favorite things to take people on because you what I still hear the gas.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I'm sure. sure. I knew, every time I bring someone in here from Sydney or from another state, the first thing we do is let's go show you this. It's pretty crazy. yeah, it's a special feature in this project. Nearly broke the build if it went wrong, but yeah, guess planning went right.
speaker-1: Well I I was y one of my questions is was there something that you haven't told me that nearly you know, that I probably should know or do it.
speaker-0: Something that I haven't told you. on the project that nearly messed up. Well, there was, I feel like you were super receptive to ideas. So if there was anything I foresaw that was going to be an issue, I just spoke to you about it.
speaker-1: I yeah, I don't think there was a time that something happened and I didn't know about. Like to be honest, like you all always very forthcoming, say, Hey, this this isn't working how it's been drawn or whatever it is. ⁓ so so that'll give you a top
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. It was usually a planned in place. You know, I won't sleep at night.
speaker-1: Is there a detail you think goes a little bit unnoticed? Like it's something you've had to do that that's people don't r don't even know, but you had to spend a lot of time on it? Apart from the door maybe. That's I mean a lot.
speaker-0: I can't mention the door anymore. thing that goes unnoticed, I think, the window shrouds. Everyone loves a beautiful window shroud, powder coated steel, it encases the window and directs natural light in very well. ⁓ James Zegari doesn't like standard stuff. He wanted it to be able to be dismantled so you can plug in table lights. That's true. Power it in and then closed up. So it looks like a finished product. Yeah. That was, that's a detail. I do think everyone walks by and just thinks it's a normal window shroud. Yeah. Yeah. That was the idea. I hated you for the idea. Yeah. And that was fun.
speaker-1: You wouldn't notice. Yeah, yeah. And that's the idea. That was That's what I mean. That was a kind of on the fly hey Would wouldn't it be cool if this actually slid out? I could plug all my leads in and close it again. 'Cause there's nothing worse than a messy
speaker-0: Exactly right.
speaker-1: So once I got that message through, you're like, Well, let's just try
speaker-0: Yeah, let's just try it because I guess you don't want to say no to you know something that Could make you very happy and could better the performance of your showroom of your space and you don't want to say no to an idea. Yeah ⁓
speaker-1: And we ended up doing the same idea in the other end. Yeah. Where we had Venetian plaster. And I said, Let's do the same thing. And you're like, hang on. ⁓
speaker-0: Not again. you sure? Yeah, that happened. That was fun.
speaker-1: the showroom itself was very design ⁓ driven. So Christopher Elliott did the design. You had never met Chris either. I've worked with Chris on our first showroom and I think, you know, both Chris and I, our guards are a little bit up because you know, the first thing usually is you wanna come in and cut costs and you know, change things. So yeah, but and we expect it, but we were like, Well you we can't because it's been designed to a certain look and feel. And I remember sitting with Chris and we're like, Hey Chris, we're gonna change this and
speaker-0: usual builder so
speaker-1: And that and and Chris guard got up. ⁓ but I wasn't long through that discussion where we went he went, Okay, I get it. Yeah. Things we had to change. Yeah. ⁓ you know, for because it worked maybe a little bit better in in real life, right? Yeah. So
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, of course, of course. I'm Yeah. Yeah, we talk about value engineering often. We offer it to clients and I think the phrase has become more so, let's substitute this product for this product because it can save you money. ⁓ Value engineering really, to me at least, is providing better value for the same scope. ⁓ In that instance, you can have just a window shroud. or you can have a Windows Shroud that opens up and serves a better purpose. And when you're substituting it, yeah, it's not always for cost. It's substituting for a better performance, whether it's longevity or aesthetic, ⁓ it's better suited for that client for that project. So that's value engineering at play. ⁓
speaker-1: couple of ⁓ spots where that happened was upstairs in the lights out area. Yeah. We had for budget, we we put we were gonna put fake grass and you were horrified. And by the time you got quotes 'cause we wanna put a decent brand and things like that, so that you had it quoted and you said, you know what, James, for the the same price, I can actually put a timber floor, a brand new decking in, which would would have suited much so much better. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. I had the heart to. Timber decade, yeah.
speaker-1: And I'm so glad you told me that because it looks amazing.
speaker-0: ⁓ it's incredible. think that was, it wasn't a one shot thing. It was a bit of a parlay because there was also a VJ board across the room there. Yes. And I figured the cost of this VJ board, plus it's synthetic grass, we can probably achieve what you want with something a bit more suited to your product, which was a look-alike render finish on the walls that saved a ton on the walls. And then... we can then spare that same budget to creating a timber deck with a beautiful hardwood timber and ⁓ cost neutral.
speaker-1: So that that wall detail that you did, ⁓ Chicks of the Trade, and you've you've got this beautiful, you know, texture running through it and it lets our lights play beautifully against and although the shadows is exactly what we needed. ⁓ but that's that's I mean, that just came from that conversation of yeah, you know, what else can we do here to make this, you know, work. Yeah. And and your idea was a a trick that you'd use on a few projects and that's the value of talking to someone who has the experience and and knows what They're looking at and knows that it can be done and look
speaker-0: Good. Yeah, thank you. And I think as well, it's not just the value of someone, I guess, with a bit of knowledge, it's also the value of that open collaborative discussion, I was mentioning earlier. It's an open collaborative discussion. Drop the guard. Everyone here wants the same result.
speaker-1: Was there a big ⁓ technical construction challenge here, apart from the door?
speaker-0: Apart from the door, I guess no, it wasn't anything specific that was really technical. I think Mitch will be upset at me because all the electrical work was obviously it's a lighting showroom. That's a separate podcast. Mitch has got plenty of You can save that for his podcast. Other than that, think it was just having the technical thing about this project is you had so many beautiful finishes that needed to work out and nothing can overpower the other. So I think the program of works where getting the Venetian guys in after the floor polishing, whether or not that's a good idea, or getting the joinery done before or after these certain ⁓ wall details. And the sequence of planning was the most technical kind of pressure on this project ⁓ to make sure the final finish, every junction, every detail just worked out. Beautiful.
speaker-1: Is there a moment that you when you come back and visit, you come every few months? Is there somewhere that you are so proud of one spot that you just like, love that? ⁓
speaker-0: Lights out room. It's always going to be lights out. It's just always going to be that outdoor area. We built for the audience, I guess it's an outdoor area. And when you're there, you feel like you're outdoor in a beautiful garden, but you're inside Richmond upstairs in a closed room. we're able to, yeah, yeah. With Christopher Elliott, able to achieve a space that just really ⁓ hit the agenda. And it's an awesome space to be in. Everyone's wowed when they're there.
speaker-1: Which trade do you think out of all the trades you used on the project should get the most credit? Might get you in trouble here.
speaker-0: That's a hard one.
speaker-1: ⁓ 'cause it's a massive collaboration, mate. Anyone from the you know, doing the you know, the framing right through to the plaster work and
speaker-0: Yeah, was a lot of electrical. The framing guys moved quick. I don't think you would have seen anyone move as quick as our guys move. So fast. know, framed hundreds of square meters in a day.
speaker-1: That was that was literally overnight came in and the walls were framed. You know, like
speaker-0: Yeah, was... It shocks a lot of people. We get ahead of program with them. ⁓ Everyone had their piece. I think the hero of every project that goes unnoticed, which I'd like to shine a light on them is I think rubbish remover lists, people that handle your waste. Sure. If a site's not clean, it's not going to be a good project. A site needs to maintain cleanliness so everyone can feel like they can respect their own work. ⁓ I think Sam. He owns all the vintage stores. ⁓ He removes all of our debris and ⁓ ensures the site stays tidy and safe. He's the hero of the project and of this project as well because we had that many guys working in to finish this project in eight weeks and without him it wouldn't have happened.
speaker-1: ⁓ he's a legend, mate. ⁓ and I mean t not to mention, of course, our friends at Venetian Plaza gallery ⁓
speaker-0: Don't worry about those guys. They've got enough fame.
speaker-1: People see and you know that lets the light play against the joinery and you know, there's so many things. ⁓ you know, the stone there's ev everything comes into play. What you can't see is all the cabling that Mitch has done. So
speaker-0: Exactly. ⁓ gosh, you can do so much with it. So I'd love to say Mitch, but I think you can give more credit to Ease of Work than I can.
speaker-1: Mm totally. No, no, no. See we we see what's going on behind the
speaker-0: Yeah, I tried to close my eyes and just stay there. Sorry, can I ask a Venetian plaster? It's a natural material. How has it been for you when it comes to playing with light? Like, could you?
speaker-1: ⁓ Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. It's ⁓ we love, you know, sure. We use ⁓ our lights against plaster walls all the time. But to have something like a Venetian finish to play with, you know, with all that movement and yeah, all that texture. The light just falls beautifully against it and it just creates moments. And we've just finished the front wall. It's you know, we we had Yeah, so stage two was doing that front section which is now ⁓ gonna
speaker-0: ⁓ concave Recently.
speaker-1: the home for our Allied Maker brand. And the two wall lights we've got in there by themselves until everything arrives are just like these massive heroes just in that front room as you walk in. And they literally stop. Like you stop.
speaker-0: Yeah, we saw it today. Yeah, we saw it today and ends up a conversation every single time when you walk past it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you like that material because I think I was a bit nervous introducing that material to this project and I'm glad you got to meet Stefan. Yeah. He's a good guy. Very good guy.
speaker-1: Okay. ⁓ We did some other work with you recently back with the showroom and there was zero hesitation in getting you back in and involved again. And I will do it again just for people listening. If if you are doing a project, whether it's a retail fit out or whatever, what you do. ⁓ yeah, I I highly recommend
speaker-0: Anything commercial. Thank you.
speaker-1: But and if you want to see useless work, come and have a look here at the showroom. ⁓ mate, skipping past that now, what what a ⁓ what's something that architects or designers often draw that's actually really, really hard to build?
speaker-0: everything. ⁓ God. What's hot. You know what? came up recently, actually, this conversation. ⁓ Architects often, you know, and whatever they want to design, I want to build, right? But often they want flush finishes with products that aren't built to be flush. ⁓ You saw on our recent project. ⁓ so the tricky thing then becomes like, then You know, the tricky thing becomes how do you remodel a product to suit the design intent? And that happens often where a client wants to make a non-manageable product then suit their design intent. from there, you're just gonna be super, super diligent in trying to work something out to achieve that result. Even if it is alternating that product for a life or life, so long as you put something forward that makes sense and maintains and protects that design intent. ⁓ The flush details are tricky when it's not meant to be flushed. When it's not meant to be flushed. yeah. I think that's a hard detail that happens consistently.
speaker-1: Yeah. I think ⁓ suppliers are getting better at it, right? They're bringing out products now that are designed to in to be flush. Yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah Yeah, almost everything in terms of lighting. Yeah, yeah, everything anything true body Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it gets very tricky. because you can always, to be fair with you, you can make anything flush by setting plaster to it. But you don't want it to crack. You don't want it to move and create something like that's an eyesore. And if you do care for longevity, you...
speaker-1: Yeah, PowerPoints. ⁓
speaker-0: it often becomes tricky, but you just gotta work it out. Everything is just working it out.
speaker-1: What's something designers do do that actually makes a builder's life easier?
speaker-0: Ugh.
speaker-1: More detail, less detail.
speaker-0: All the details they want, that's fine. I think it's just early planning, like get the builder involved earlier. ⁓ The builder's not there, hopefully they're there to make money, especially early on. You bring them in, you'll make your project easier because ⁓ they're there planning and procuring for the project early on and trying to really understand the essence of the design. so yeah, bringing an early collaboration in is, I think, the utmost important factor.
speaker-1: ⁓ so talking now back about Incra, what are the ⁓ the types of projects you're most excited about working with?
speaker-0: The types of projects. think over the last five years, you saw hospitality become brave again. Hospitality projects have been super, super fun and working with designers that are willing to be brave and courageous in creating something special. We saw it with the Sydney fish markets and everyone was trying to outdo one another with something brave and ended up working out beautifully. Right now it's like a huge icon in Sydney and they're the exciting projects, the guys that are willing to be brave. and a brave builder wanting to come on board and deliver those projects. I think that's the most exciting thing going on right now. We love jumping on. We love building those.
speaker-1: What's the plan for Increve? Next five to ten years? What's what do you think?
speaker-0: For Incra, ⁓ I think a lot of the industry that I've dealt with know me for my core values and ⁓ they do trust in my build methodology and I do hope that in five, 10 years, we're a household name that is truly trusted as the builders that deliver the same philosophy as myself. The handy thing about starting this business is I get to kind of... choose and hire mini versions of me. ⁓ It's not necessarily ⁓ like everyone the same, that's the same. It's just, I'm hoping to achieve a company that is in five to 10 years time, trusted and respected to deliver the same results that I've always achieved and everyone's firing on all cylinders and care as much as I do. ⁓ And if we're known to be that company that really cares. I think that's the most important thing. If at a cafe someone says, yeah, this builder cares for the project he delivered, that's what I want for Ingra.
speaker-1: you were walking through here today after a year and a half pointing things out that I'm that I've I I don't care. You know, like it's out five mil. Like we'll get that adjusted. Yeah. It's been a year and a half, man.
speaker-0: Yeah, I guess, yeah, it's a reflection of us. a reflection of us. It's a reflection of our relationship. Yeah. I guess I hope that, yeah, the testimony.
speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ there were things, right? There was always things, but as soon as I flag with you, it was done. So but even that's what I mean, even a year and a half later.
speaker-0: Resolve shadow here. Yeah, you know, I'll play it out here. Hopefully in five years time, this place will definitely still be standing, hope, if you don't expand further. yeah, everything will still be looking beautiful. And I'm sure I'll still be picking out things that haven't lasted.
speaker-1: What's ⁓ a couple of general questions? We we'll we'll we'll we'll wind it up in a minute. but what's your favorite material to work with?
speaker-0: My favourite material to work with is, have to the Venetian plaster. There you go, I knew you were going to say that. I you'd say that. I tried to think of something else but it's Venetian plaster, always. Something that looks pretty cool. Yeah.
speaker-1: You can make pretty special by that extra code and then it depends on which version they use and you know, like there's so many different finishes, right?
speaker-0: It's incredible, the process, like it's very, you know, it's an old trade. It's, know, it's hundreds of years old and it's beautiful. The fact they're able to get marble onto a wall and then formed into one piece, it's pretty cool. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ what's the most underrated trade on a project?
speaker-0: Miss on the Reddit trade.
speaker-1: Probably similar my last question with the bingo, right? The the clean up guy.
speaker-0: It's I'm sorry I'm going to be the same guy, but it's Sam. You can't build projects without people like that. In Sydney, work with Rubbish Bros and Joel, and Josh. They're just the best two brothers ever. They've got an awesome career as well. They're the heroes of every project.
speaker-1: If you could if you go back to day one of now that you've finished this project, go back to day one when we first walked through that door and change something, would you change anything?
speaker-0: Would I change anything? No, I guess if I saw myself at that front door and I had to give him a piece of advice before he walks in, it'll be take the pressure off your shoulders. You're dealing with the right people. here wants to, like everyone here is a great person and you're going to deliver a great project and it's probably one of the very few projects that is something that I genuinely smile thinking about. looking back because not only did we create such a beautiful project, everyone involved is proud of it and we made lifelong friends between myself and you, Mitch. On the first day I was here he invited me to his birthday. The only advice I'd be is to just calm your nerves. This is going to be a project that's be a memorable one for you.
speaker-1: I if if I could say anything it would be trust the trust that young guy walking in because I did I did within within minutes. It was you know, I could see you just taking action and and ⁓ mate, I'll just yeah. I there wasn't a moment along the journey that was like ⁓ my god. No, no, no. ⁓ but the thing is I had been in that position before. Yeah. ⁓ we did another showroom and you know, I was constantly on edge.
speaker-0: Yeah, sure, should reverse that question. Never put you in danger.
speaker-1: You know, yeah. ⁓ and it was the first one and maybe it was easier this time 'cause we've already done it. But yeah. but no, so trust the process. Any any advice to, you know, people listening is, you know, work as close as you can to the builder ⁓ and share as much information as possible because it just makes your life easier.
speaker-0: your life so much easier. ⁓ Do you feel like your previous builder you dealt with, did he, do feel like he lacked the care? ⁓
speaker-1: yeah, I I guess. there was no detail conversations and you know, it's like how can we save money? And so well hang on. We it's gotta look like our brand, right? We we wn we can't just rip out that black sink and put a stainless steel sink in that's been designed as black 'cause it's you know. So there's a lo yeah. Yeah, unfortunately it it was a turned out beautiful and it was looked amazing. But yeah, it looked amazing. But ⁓
speaker-0: It's unfortunate,
speaker-1: But
speaker-0: it was a stressful process. an experience and like, I don't know how people want to live with not creating an enjoyable experience for everyone that's involved.
speaker-1: There's no need to not have it. Yusuf, thanks so much. Thanks for your time on the PodMade and hope I hope people are listening. I don't know. You're like probably the sixth episode in or seventh episode in, so
speaker-0: Thank you so much for having me. Can I tell you a funny story before I leave? Tell me. So like this is something that I want to tell you for the first time. You're only going to hear on this podcast. You know that first day I walked in, I walked in, shook your hand, rushed to the toilet. Yeah, It was close to nine hours of driving. Yeah. Turns out there was no toilet paper. And I didn't even met you yet. Yes. So I called Sam. He was in Hawthorne. He came and helped me out. Is that right? Yeah, that's a funny story for you know, that is a funny story. That toilet paper that one time every other time has been toilet paper. Yeah, so that was a funny one for you. Good. There you go. Well, thank you.
speaker-1: Funny story. ⁓ Thanks again, mate. ⁓ and yeah, gosh. Yeah.
speaker-0: Get you on the next one. Yeah, we'll get you on my podcast. Okay, I haven't built one yet, but happy to build one for myself and have you on first guest. Love it. We'll see. Thank you so much. Thanks. I really appreciate that. Good stuff. Thank you.
