Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Prove: Leading With Authenticity and Faith | Dr. Dan Owolabi

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And she's like, Dan, if you don't do this, you are stupid.
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If you're a pastor, a lot of times, like I'm committed to dealing with going through the muck and and the filth of people's lives, you just end up ministering to people, usually not in their highs, but a lot of times it's in the valleys.
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There's a real distinctive to really focusing on caring for people.
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Yeah.
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Especially in their most spiritually vulnerable states.
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I think what you see though, too, is the consistency that love can transform.
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Like even the hardest people, it's hard to resist someone that is actively serving you and actively has your best interest in mind.
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Making sure that people feel loved and cared for and that they matter to you and they have value.
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When you're feeling insecure, your thoughts are dominated by the thoughts of other people.
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And so you walk into a room, you're like, what do they think of me?
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What does that guy think of me?
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Yeah.
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That guy look at me funny.
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How am I dressed?
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Like everything is about like their thoughts about you.
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One way to break that to your question is to really focus on service.
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It's to stop thinking about what they're thinking give me and start thinking, what do they need?
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What a simple way to shift your mindset.
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But I feel like a lot of why is that so hard to do?
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Why can't people see that?
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Welcome to First and Focused, the podcast where faith meets leadership.
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I know you're gonna put me on the spot.
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I don't know what you're gonna ask me to say.
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I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling.
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I could sit here and talk with you all day.
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Keep up the great work, brother.
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Lord is using you powerfully.
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I love you.
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I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life.
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Welcome to the First and Focus show.
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I'm your host, Mark Greaves.
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And as a reminder, this is where we meet with industry leaders uh from various different fields and realms that are uh keeping God first in their work and staying focused on uh the gospel through their calling.
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So today we are here with uh my friend Dr.
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Dan Owlabi.
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Nailed it.
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Nice work.
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Yeah, man.
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Thank you for being here.
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Good to be here.
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Good to be here.
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And uh so just uh to kick things off, well, I gotta hit your intro in a second, but um, we've never met in person, but I knew that you were also tall because you were college b-ball player at Malone, right?
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That's right.
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You played volleyball, yeah?
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I did, yeah.
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Man, that's exciting.
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Can you still dunk, though, is the question.
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You know what?
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I haven't tried in probably about three years.
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Uh now, whether I could or not, different story.
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I I'll tell you I could.
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I did it last week.
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Whoa.
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I had to prove it, I had to reprove it to my kids.
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How'd you feel?
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Uh in the moment, okay.
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Actually, I felt good that it went down.
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Like I was like, all right, so we were at a like a little park and we were practicing.
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My wife had like her Bible study going on, so I was like, all right, guys, let's get out of the house.
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And uh no, caveat.
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The rim was probably like nine teeth.
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Oh, come on now.
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It was like probably two inches short.
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Uh-huh.
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But uh I was feeling particularly good, and I was like, I think I can do it.
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Uh-huh.
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And I did it.
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So I threw in, I threw it down about four or five times.
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Oh, wow.
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There you go.
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That's awesome.
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Next day, my right knee was like on fire all day.
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All day, like, no joke either.
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Like all day living.
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Really?
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You know how it is where like you can go like play some ball with your kids and stuff like that.
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But if you're like trying to max jump and you're landing, yeah.
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You're using tendons that you haven't used in your body and they're not ready for it.
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Yeah, you've got to be doing it like every day, every week to avoid that pain.
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But I was glad I did because I was like, all right, I could definitely dunk when they were little kids, but you gotta do it when they're old enough to be able to remember it.
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Dad still got it.
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Correct.
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That's right.
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So that was good.
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That's a point of pride.
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That's awesome.
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Well, tell that story the rest of their life.
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My dad was I'll tell that story the rest of their life.
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I mean, yeah, exactly.
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That's fair.
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42 still dunking.
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That's what you guys.
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Yeah, but I mean, they're not they're not good.
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I mean, that's just like, you know, little one-handers.
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So yeah.
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That is better than like 99% of 40-year-old men.
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It's like you and LeBron and a couple of people.
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That's true.
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I'll tell you having long arms, it it definitely you know comes in handy every now and then.
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That helps.
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So all right, I'm hitting your intro.
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Now, if I get any of this wrong, you can blame me, but you can correct the record.
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But all right, let's let's tell the guests who you are.
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All right, Dr.
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Dan Owlabi.
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You are the founding CEO of branches worldwide.
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Co-founding.
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Co-founding.
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Okay, yeah.
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Oh, it still counts.
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It does.
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It does for sure.
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Uh it's a global leadership development organization that has equipped executives, entrepreneurs, and owners across 35 countries to build companies that transform their communities.
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Uh you hold a PhD in global leadership from the Fuller Theological Seminary, and we're a pastor for a decade prior to launching your leadership development platform and global leadership initiatives at branches.
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You offered the Amazon bestseller authentic leadership, which has been the basis for some of your international keynotes and how you've helped thousands learn how to lead and with, I quote, nothing to hide, nothing to prove, and nothing to lose.
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Your devoted husband, father of two daughters, and most importantly, a lover and follower of Jesus.
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You got it.
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There it is.
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There you go.
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Well, uh, I did read the book.
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It's goody.
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I'm glad you're in a fan.
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I got a couple of questions about it, but um what I wanted to just kind of start with, because this is a it's a rarity um that we've had in here, is you pastored for a decade, you said, before like actually launching into the business world and like doing some of the leadership initiatives that you've done.
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Um tell me a little bit about like your faith journey, like when you came to Christ, you know, pastoring a church, and then after that, kind of a follow-up question about some of those lessons and how they've carried over.
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But yeah, just give us that background first.
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Yeah, definitely.
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I think um maybe the best way to start is when I left full-time pastoring.
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Um, you know, for a lot of people, when you're when your pastor leaves pastoring, it means that something has blown up.
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Like either their finances have blown up, their marriage is blown up, you know, their morals are blown.
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Some something's something's dying, their faith.
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Yeah.
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Um, and I think when I left, there were some people that were kind of waiting to see what the head was.
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Where'd this guy go wrong?
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Yeah, like what's what are we gonna hear?
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Like, who's the other woman?
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That kind of stuff.
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And that wasn't really wasn't the case.
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Um, I'm actually a teaching pastor now at our local church in Worcester.
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It's called uh Grace, Worcester Grace Church.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think for me, my parents were always sort of deep in church culture, always deep in um ministry.
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And so um I grew up in the church.
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My dad was a pastor, and for me, it was a lot like the family business where you got to see exactly what it looked like behind the scenes.
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You understood how really the church is for sinful people.
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Yeah.
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And so then when sinful people all show up and get together, there's a lot of nasty stuff that tends to happen behind the scenes.
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And so I got to see a lot of that.
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But but I also got to see a lot of the redemption, right?
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Yeah.
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Um, so for me, when I when I left pastoring full-time and went into launching branches and um the business that I'd started, it didn't feel like it didn't feel like I was I was stepping out of ministry.
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It felt like I was doing what God had called me to do.
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Yeah, there was no mystique about sort of full-time ministry.
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I'd already seen really my dad was a pastor, but he's just a regular guy following Jesus, doing what he can.
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And so for me, I'm just a regular guy following Jesus, doing what I can.
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So stepping in from one role to another, it wasn't a step down, it wasn't a step up, it was just a step over.
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And that felt really natural for me.
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Yeah, that's interesting.
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I never, you know, you never really think about that, but um, we're all called to ministry.
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We just do it in our own specific ways.
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And I mean, growing up for me, I always thought like I had to be a priest or a pastor or something like that in order to do it.
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And everybody else is just a regular old, you know, Joe Schmoe, but that's that's not how it goes.
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Yeah, it's not how it goes.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You know what's weird though, having been a pastor, you you know, pastors are kind of incentivized to like elevate the pastorate a little bit, you know?
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And so like missionaries and pastors, they all we all kind of elevate ourselves a little bit.
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And I think wise people recognize that God's ministry, God's kingdom, God's kingdom expansion um goes beyond just pastors.
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Yeah, I do think that there's there's something to it where it's like if you're in full-time ministry, or if you're a missionary and you're you've basically gone all in, you're saying, hey, the majority of the time I'm awake, I'm gonna spend on actually trying to reach people with the gospel.
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Or if you're a pastor, a lot of times, like I'm committed to dealing with going through the muck and and the filth of people's lives because you just end up ministering to people, usually not in their highs, but a lot of times it's in the valleys that you start to hear, okay, this person needs me for something.
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So it's just you've gone more all in at that point, but it is a special calling, I think for sure.
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There's a real distinctive to really focusing on caring for people, yeah.
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Um, especially in their most spiritually vulnerable state.
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So I think there is something to it.
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But I think when it comes to kingdom expansion and really sort of thinking about where God um can have influence over this world, I think having a balanced approach and saying, Oh my gosh, there's absolutely a need for pastors and everybody else.
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100%.
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So I think we're on the same page with that.
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What uh what's carried over as far as like from the leadership point of view, you know, when you're pastoring a church to versus like, okay, I'm out here and I'm in the marketplace section.
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What are some of the things that translate?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I think one thing is um caring for people holistically.
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So you see, uh, when you're pastoring, one of the things you see more often than not is a lot of people's pain, frustration, anger, you know, just areas of like real frustration in life come from their family for sure, but also come from their work, like their feeling of uh lack of fulfillment, the sense I don't have a purpose in life, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
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Um, all of that oftentimes comes from where they spend most of their time on a daily basis.
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And so what you see is if business owners, business leaders could really create environments where people were able to find their their calling and then sort of fulfill their full calling in Christ if they're Christians, but their full calling as humans, would you find are opportunities to really point people to Jesus in a natural sort of like um way that has real momentum to it?
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Yeah, no, that's really cool.
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I'm actually never really thought about that.
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So branches, I I think a lot of the questions that we're gonna have maybe are about like some of the work that you're doing currently and some of the things you're doing.
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So before we even do that, we gotta explain what it is.
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Yeah, right.
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Can you just kind of tell us like where did this idea come from?
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Uh what is it?
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Because the way that we talked about it, you know, before the show, it it's kind of just a cool thing that I never heard about before, and I didn't even know anybody had ever really tried to tackle.
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So can you tell us like a little bit about where it started?
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And obviously that idea exploded.
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It's it's happening on steroids now, but yeah, just give it give it to us.
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Yeah, branches is is exciting.
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So the name itself comes from John 15, 5.
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I'm the vine, you are the branches, remain in me, and I in you, and you will bear much fruit, which is just a phenomenal verse.
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Um, and one of the things that really kind of anchors who we are is this idea that people who are both tied into Christ, but then also tied into community, can do incredible work in the world.
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And there's actually tangible things that you can point to to say, wow, that person, there's something different about the way that they're operating.
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And so for us, um, one of the things that we found is one of the best ways to expand God's kingdom, using that phrase again, is through business.
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Um, business leaders, anywhere I go around the world, whether I'm in, you know, Costa Rica or whether I'm in the Congo, anywhere I go around the world, business leaders have this outsized influence over the transformation of their community.
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Yeah, they can help form you know people's obviously financial um financial project financial trajectory, they can help form people's sort of occupational focus, people's sense of purpose, the culture that they live in most of the time during the day.
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So business owners have a lot to do with how people actually feel on a day-to-day basis.
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And if you have somebody who loves Jesus, they love their company and they love their community and they're willing to align all three together to create environments where people thrive with a sort of thriving business, then you can do a lot of growth in God's kingdom.
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And so that's where we really got excited.
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So we said, look, what would it look like if we would identify the best Christian entrepreneurs all over the world and bring them together in a community and then make this long-term commitment to their spiritual health, but also the health of their company and watch them transform their communities, make their dream our dream.
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If they want to, you know, dig water wells.
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Let's not send a missionary over there to do that.
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Let's not sort of do it from an American's perspective, but let's find an entrepreneur in that local community that has the dream to do that.
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Let's help their let's help their business grow and then let's watch that happen from inside the community as opposed to from the outside the community.
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So I mean, it's so cool.
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All right.
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So let me let me ask you this man, how does the vision start as a worldwide vision?
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I mean, just being somebody who's had a business vision before and kind of like understanding that God's in it.
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I've never had a vision before from God that's like, hey, we're gonna do this all over the world.
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It seems pretty intimidating.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like, how did this thing even get off the ground?
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It is deeply intimidating, man.
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That's the right word, that's the right word for it.
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I mean, starting something is hard enough, but starting it from a global scale feels really, really daunting.
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Yeah.
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Um, the good news is it wasn't my idea, right?
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Uh, my co-founder Brian Miller and I, um, he came to me with the idea and he said, Hey, look, I feel like God's calling me to launch this ministry.
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And really, its focus is on working with 30 entrepreneurs from 30 countries and then working with them for 30 years.
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That was the original vision.
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I know the 30 years part is like that's that's the intimidating part.
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Sticking with anything for 30 years is tough.
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Yeah.
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I would 100% agree.
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And so it was there was a lot of sort of um trepidation that I had, a lot of fear.
00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:24.440
But then I took the he had written, Brian had written a white paper on it, yeah, and he had given it to me and said, Hey, Dan, I'd love for you to do this with me.
00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:26.840
So I took it to my wife and I said, Hey, what do you think?
00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:28.840
And I was again full-time pastor at the time.
00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.360
And she's like, Dan, if you don't do this, you are stupid.
00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:34.200
This is this is your personality.
00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:35.879
That always gives you a little momentum.
00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:36.360
Oh my god.
00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:38.200
Is when you're when your wife says go.
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:38.760
That's right.
00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:41.879
It's like, all right, well, I got clearance to go now, so I can I can do what I want to do.
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:42.200
That's right.
00:13:42.280 --> 00:13:44.600
And my wife, she's like a self-described kind of homebody.
00:13:44.680 --> 00:13:47.240
Like, she's like, look, I could stay in my county for the rest of my life.
00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:48.920
She travels a little bit, but not a lot.
00:13:49.160 --> 00:13:51.640
But for me, she was like, Yes, that is you.
00:13:51.800 --> 00:13:54.520
And I think a big part of it was because it was it was huge.
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:59.640
In order to actually accomplish the vision, I had to get better, I had to get bigger along the way.
00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:00.920
And I think that was really appealing to me.
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.480
Well, I was gonna say, so the church you pastored, how many people were in the congregation?
00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:06.120
600.
00:14:06.280 --> 00:14:07.720
600 people, which is not small.
00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:09.080
No, it's a big church.
00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:12.200
And then had you really done much internationally at that point?
00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:13.160
No, I hadn't.
00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:17.480
So, man, I mean, it was it was uh yeah.
00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:20.280
So, you know, you it was it was a nonprofit at first, right?
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:21.879
So we're five nonprofit for-profit.
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:23.720
So nonprofit at first, you have to do some fundraising.
00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:29.080
Yeah, and as you're doing fundraising, one of the things that people ask you is, well, tell us about you, tell us about your experience.
00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:33.240
Yeah, and I one of the first questions that I got was, How many, how many countries have you been to?
00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:35.400
You know, you're talking 30 around the world, how many you've been to?
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.240
And I was like, me counting this one right here.
00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:39.240
Yeah, yeah, like the one I'm in right now.
00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:41.240
Maybe two, yeah, yeah.
00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.800
So there's just so much that I did not know.
00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:50.360
Um, but then, you know, and I hate to jump to the the conclusion, you know, at the beginning, but I mean that's what sometimes working backwards is good.
00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:52.040
That that's where God shows up, right?
00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.960
That's like the the fact that you're swimming and you have no clue what you're doing is where God has the opportunity to.
00:14:56.520 --> 00:14:57.800
I totally agree with that.
00:14:58.040 --> 00:15:03.560
Well, okay, so I have so many questions, and I actually think this is really helpful.
00:15:03.800 --> 00:15:04.920
What it what was it about you?
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:06.200
Why did Brian pick you?
00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:11.160
Because you would think that if you had somebody that was okay, I'm the visionary, this God hit me with this vision.
00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:15.560
I'm gonna go find somebody that's internationally connected that already has like inroads.
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.600
Like, what was it about you that he was like, I this has got to be my guy?
00:15:18.760 --> 00:15:19.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:19.400 --> 00:15:21.320
Well, I don't know if he said this is God to be my guy.
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:22.920
Maybe he's like, This is the only guy.
00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:24.520
Nobody else wants to do this.
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.160
This guy's dumb enough to that's funny.
00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:29.560
You know, we had a we had a we had a relationship before, right?
00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:33.879
So um I was pastoring in a previous church, I was an assistant pastor, and Brian was one of the elders.
00:15:34.040 --> 00:15:38.760
So him and I had gotten close, we're about 10 years apart, and he was leading a really big company.
00:15:38.920 --> 00:15:44.200
It's really big now, but at the time, he knew that God was calling him to do it, but he knew that he wasn't the one to go do it.
00:15:44.280 --> 00:15:55.960
Yeah, long story short, when I was at the church with Brian, I had started a number of new ministries, and I think had demonstrated that I could start something from nothing and take it to a place where it was really sustainable and then start a new thing.
00:15:56.040 --> 00:15:57.480
And I'm entrepreneurial by nature.
00:15:57.560 --> 00:16:00.040
Yeah, then I had gone out and helped start a new church, right?
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.240
And that had grown to 600.
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:08.200
So the idea of starting something and just using your fingernails to claw in the dirt to get something into a word.
00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:12.760
Oh my gosh, like all the no's, all the rejection, all the self-doubt.
00:16:12.920 --> 00:16:14.600
I was kind of well acquainted with that, right?
00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:18.200
And so I think that could have been part of it, but it definitely is part of it.
00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:26.120
Well, and it's it's just another just testament to God where He's not He's not worried about your accolades and your resume.
00:16:26.280 --> 00:16:28.280
He's worried about He knows what he's gifted you with.
00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:30.840
I mean, the gifts and the strengths that are inherent inside of you.
00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:31.800
I mean, he planted them there.
00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:32.280
That's right.
00:16:32.520 --> 00:16:33.800
So he knows how to get them to come out.
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:34.280
That's right.
00:16:34.520 --> 00:16:37.000
So just don't be surprised when the opportunity comes knocking.
00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.000
But it wasn't something you were necessarily looking for.
00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:40.280
It wasn't, no, no.
00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.520
But once I saw it, I thought this is this is the thing.
00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:43.879
This is this is a big idea.
00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:44.520
Yeah, all right.
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.560
So initially it was it was 30 and 30 for 30.
00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.480
You got it 30 people, 30 countries 30 years, yep.
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:52.360
What is it now?
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.360
Yeah, because how many years ago did this start?
00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.240
Uh so it started in 2018 officially.
00:16:57.560 --> 00:17:00.360
Um, so we are in our eighth year now.
00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:00.600
Yeah.
00:17:00.760 --> 00:17:02.280
And so what do you got going on now?
00:17:02.520 --> 00:17:05.559
Yeah, so it is it is different than it was in the best way.
00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:15.799
So I'm still focusing on 30 leaders from 30 countries for 30 years, but it's now we're aiming towards 30 leaders a year from 30 countries every year, and then working them again with for 30 years.
00:17:15.879 --> 00:17:17.879
So the the It's quite the multiple there.
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:23.639
Yeah, the fellowship that we're we've grown is now we're now working with 35 leaders around the world.
00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.679
We passed that 30 year mark or 30 entrepreneur mark.
00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:30.839
And we knew, I think, right around uh entrepreneur number 12.
00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.519
I was like, oh, this is going really fast.
00:17:32.679 --> 00:17:32.839
Yeah.
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:37.079
And we need to start going back to our knees to see if there's a new vision that God's giving us.
00:17:37.159 --> 00:17:38.359
And that's really where that came from.
00:17:38.439 --> 00:17:39.799
But yeah, that's what we're aiming for now.
00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:40.679
That is pretty cool.
00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.240
So, what it what are some of the stories that have been like successful?
00:17:43.399 --> 00:17:44.519
Because you mentioned Congo.
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.399
I mean, do you know off the top of your head the countries?
00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:55.000
Yeah, so there's one country in particular that I think is really, really um a good example of what branches has done around the world.
00:17:55.159 --> 00:17:58.279
So um some of your listeners will be familiar with Uganda.
00:17:58.359 --> 00:17:58.519
Yeah.
00:17:58.679 --> 00:18:01.799
Um, and there's a slum in Uganda called the Kosiva Slums.
00:18:01.879 --> 00:18:04.039
It's in the middle of Kampala, which is their capital city.
00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.000
It is literally one of the poorest places in the world, right?
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:15.399
So if you think about you know the world vision commercials, you know, and they're like kids with flies in their eyes, like it's oh yeah, it's it's it's that kind of area.
00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.639
So I was there a couple years ago, and um one of our entrepreneurs is from there.
00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:21.879
Um incredible guy, right?
00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:23.319
So he's 30 years old.
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.599
Uh he has an employee base of about 85 people.
00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:31.879
Um he initially was in the slums, uh, just like everybody else.
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:40.599
And one day uh he gets an invitation to go hang out with a missionary woman and she's there doing the her missionary thing, and she asks him one question.
00:18:40.679 --> 00:18:43.879
She's like, Hey, what would you need to pull yourself out of the situation?
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:45.720
He's like, I just need a computer.
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:47.720
So she gets him a laptop.
00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.359
This is like, I don't know, 1999 or something like that.
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:51.559
She gets him a laptop.
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.200
Um and so he starts teaching himself how to code.
00:18:56.439 --> 00:18:59.960
He teaches himself how to like you know make websites, right?
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:01.879
He's just sort of growing over the years.
00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.119
And then he gets his internship at Coca-Cola.
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:11.079
And then he has this opportunity to like leave the slums and actually like go to the United States, get a full education, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing, and just never come back.
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:19.319
But instead, he goes to Coca-Cola, learns the skills that he needs, and then he comes back to the slums and he's like, I can teach this to my friends.
00:19:19.639 --> 00:19:25.799
And if we together can start a company, we can outsource the skill set and I can pull all these people out of poverty.
00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.960
So he forms this organization called Era 92, which is unbelievable.
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.200
I mean, take a look online, it's really, really cool.
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.000
He forms this organization, this company called Era 92.
00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.319
Now it has um 85 employees.
00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:42.279
He's uh it has a goal to help 100,000 people get out of poverty to create good good paying jobs.
00:19:42.679 --> 00:19:51.159
And then the thing that I think that's I'm most excited by is the fact that just in this last year, he built a massive headquarters that looks unbelievably immaculate.
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:56.200
I mean, branches as an organization, if I could have his headquarters, I would, I would, I would kill it.
00:19:56.439 --> 00:19:57.240
I would take it, I would take it.
00:19:57.319 --> 00:19:58.359
I mean, it's really nice.
00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:03.960
But the big idea though is that he built that as an example right next to the slums of what people can do.
00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:10.839
So every time people walk by it, they're like, that's a possibility for me because the person that runs that is from the same place that I'm from.
00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:11.240
Yeah.
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.799
When I was walking with him in the slums, so you got people everywhere, it's just just what you would think.
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:17.559
I'm walking behind him.
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.480
And as he's walking through, people are just pausing and stopping.
00:20:21.639 --> 00:20:24.279
Like he is a rock star when he comes through.
00:20:24.439 --> 00:20:30.039
And he's using his influence then to point people to Christ, but also creating jobs at the same time, it's unbelievable.
00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:30.919
So he's one of branches.
00:20:31.399 --> 00:20:42.759
It's just such a good example, though, of uh everybody has uh, I mean, really unique and good gifts from the Lord, but your environment, your geography, your situation, it's all very, very different.
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:43.559
That's right.
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:50.279
But if we're all willing, we can help people find ways and pathways where they can use those gifts to go influence the world around.
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:51.079
That's what you guys are doing.
00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:51.879
That's exactly right.
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.559
But it just takes it takes intentionality, it takes time, it takes resources.
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.559
Um we have a knack for finding people who have definitely a very deep faith.
00:20:59.639 --> 00:21:02.279
All of them could be, you know, ministers, pastors, yeah.
00:21:02.439 --> 00:21:07.079
But there's a there's a certain level of ambition where they're like, I want to, I want to make something out of nothing.
00:21:07.159 --> 00:21:09.879
Yeah, I I see something in me and I feel compelled to build that.
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:11.399
Oh, we work really well with people like that.
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:22.519
Are most of the countries that you're doing, are they are most of them in situations like this where there's like poverty and there's like a community needs to be transformed, and it's gonna take an entrepreneur and something like that to do it?
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:24.519
Or how do you guys choose the locations?
00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:25.480
That's a great question.
00:21:25.639 --> 00:21:27.639
So um it's a competitive process, right?
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.759
So people will apply to be part of branches from all over the world.
00:21:30.919 --> 00:21:34.759
Um, but no, uh, we have uh an entrepreneur from Kansas City and the United States.
00:21:34.919 --> 00:21:36.279
We have one from Manchester, England.
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.919
So these are sort of Western countries that you'd think Romania, right?
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:39.079
Yeah.
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:46.039
Um, that owns a coffee shop and another person owns a skate park and another person owns a school, and another person owns like a meatpacking business in Costa Rica.
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:52.919
And so, like all over the world, there's sort of different ways that your your community is dealing with the curse of sin.
00:21:53.240 --> 00:22:01.079
And as an entrepreneur, having eyes to see that and saying, like, what can I do to really build a redemptive business that doesn't just point people to Jesus?
00:22:01.159 --> 00:22:02.119
That's absolutely key.
00:22:02.439 --> 00:22:10.279
But at the same time, gives them a clear pathway and surrounds them with a community, people at their workplace that can help sort of keep that sanctification process moving.
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:12.119
Like that, that's really what we get excited about.
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:13.159
Man, how crazy is that?
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.960
So, how has your perspective grown at the Point.
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:24.359
Like when you look around, and um, I mean, for example, my perspective is mostly just America and even hyper focused on that is just Ohio culture.
00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:25.879
Like I this is what I know.
00:22:26.919 --> 00:22:34.279
Versus like now having been in all these other countries and seeing what they're up against and seeing how they're overcoming struggle and overcoming their obstacles.
00:22:34.439 --> 00:22:37.000
Like what's changed about your perspective on leadership?
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:38.200
Oh goodness.
00:22:38.919 --> 00:22:40.599
On leadership in particular, yeah.
00:22:40.919 --> 00:22:41.559
That's good.
00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:42.200
That's good.
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:51.720
So you start to, I think when you travel the world, you start to see the leadership essentials, you know, the things that, you know, like, okay, some things don't apply in every culture, right?
00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.039
But some things apply in all cultures, right?
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.279
Like everyone wants to be appreciated.
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:58.919
Everyone wants to do good, meaningful work.
00:22:59.000 --> 00:22:59.159
Yeah.
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:00.439
Everybody loves their kids.
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.240
Everybody wants to bring food and money home to their families.
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:05.960
Like that is like I was in Mongolia a couple weeks ago.
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:06.839
That's there, right?
00:23:06.919 --> 00:23:07.879
It's just everywhere.
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:09.399
People have those same tendencies.
00:23:09.639 --> 00:23:10.599
So you really see that.
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:17.480
Um, I think what you see though, too, is the the consistency that love can transform.
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:26.919
Like even the hardest people, it's hard to resist someone that is actively serving you and actively has your best interest in mind.
00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:27.319
Yeah.
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.319
And so when you enter a business establishment, you can tell that they've thought about you.
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.439
Hospitality is real, like they're there to serve your needs.
00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:38.359
Like all of that, it is really hard to be actively against that, right?
00:23:38.439 --> 00:23:40.119
So people's hearts melt over time.
00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:41.319
That's so good.
00:23:41.639 --> 00:23:43.079
And you can and anybody can do that.
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:43.559
Anybody.
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:52.519
Any business leader anywhere, any any pastor anywhere, like it just uh making sure that people feel loved and cared for and that they matter to you and they have value.
00:23:52.679 --> 00:23:53.159
Yeah.
00:23:53.879 --> 00:23:54.119
Yeah.
00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:55.960
How do you be against that?
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:56.279
Yeah.
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:57.960
It'd be really kind of weird to be against that.
00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:58.679
It would, yeah.
00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:00.119
Like they like me, and I don't like that.
00:24:00.439 --> 00:24:02.839
That's not gonna feel very yeah, it's not gonna feel natural at all.
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:08.039
And that's the real crossover for me between um being a pastor and then running branches.
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.039
Uh, branches, you know, is a for-profit for-profit consulting business as well, right?
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:16.359
And so you get to see sort of market forces and you have to figure out like how to manage a PL.
00:24:16.439 --> 00:24:25.559
But one of the things that we've seen, both with our entrepreneurs around the world, the business that we run, and then the churches that I led, is that consistent voice of hospitality and love.
00:24:25.639 --> 00:24:26.200
Yeah, right.
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:35.079
Obviously, following the lead of Jesus, but man, like people's hearts, like they almost cannot help but be turned by just consistent love and service.
00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:36.039
That's what it is.
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:36.759
That's exact.
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.599
I mean, they ain't gonna be turned with words and telling them what to do.
00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:42.839
It's gonna be it's gonna be turned with serving them.
00:24:43.159 --> 00:24:45.000
That's how Jesus did it, you know?
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:46.119
That's so cool, man.
00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:47.240
All right, I want to pivot into this.
00:24:47.399 --> 00:24:48.279
Okay, let's do it.
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:49.399
Uh you're great.
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.720
By the way, I thought, well, I saw that you got this into Harvard.
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:54.759
I did, yeah, man.
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.359
Did you do how did that even happen?
00:24:56.439 --> 00:24:56.919
I don't even know.
00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.679
So by the way, uh, authentic leadership.
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:02.839
I've got uh two questions about the book, but before that even happens, like, how do you get it into Harvard?
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:03.720
I don't know, man.
00:25:03.879 --> 00:25:05.799
Like I seriously, I I I don't know.
00:25:05.879 --> 00:25:09.079
Like it was, I mean, okay, again, churchy answer, like God, of course.
00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:10.439
Of course, yeah.
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.439
But like it was I was in uh I was man, so this is gonna be weird.
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:25.960
I was walking through London and uh just searching, you know, on social media and just ran into uh Harvard, posted my book and said, Hey, look at look what we're using for our curriculum this year.
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.559
And I was like, So that's my book.
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:31.639
You guys didn't tell me, you know?
00:25:31.879 --> 00:25:36.679
Like Harvard is teaching business students or whoever about authentic leadership.
00:25:36.919 --> 00:25:37.639
You got it, you got it.
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:42.039
And I I mean, I think you work backwards and you figure out why there's an appeal to that, right?
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.079
So the book is a lot about, has a lot to do with insecurity.
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:45.639
I know.
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:57.079
And the yeah, and so the idea is that I think the the the course that Harvard was using was about new executives and really helping them sort of grapple with the idea that they've now been promoted to a massive position.
00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.079
How do you deal with the emotions along the way?
00:25:59.159 --> 00:26:01.559
And so I think this book really kind of helps fill that gap.
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:03.639
But it would have been nice for them to let me know ahead of time.
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.599
Like I found out they were using it in October, I found out in January, and I was like, oh my gosh, that's good news.
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:09.319
Hey, that's good.
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:10.279
Good for you guys, you know.
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:11.559
It's kind of cool though, man.
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:12.279
It was very cool.
00:26:12.439 --> 00:26:14.119
I mean, uh especially unexpected.
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:15.480
Usually people have to like fight for that.
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:25.240
Like they're trying to get their book into curriculums and they're trying to get people to do it, and all of a sudden, like you just by accident, uh well, not by accident, but um unknowingly, all of a sudden Harvard's just using it.
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:26.119
Just using it, man.
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:26.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:26.679 --> 00:26:29.879
They might be they might have continued to use it without me knowing it if they hadn't posted another.
00:26:30.439 --> 00:26:33.319
So you mentioned this, and I so I use all my old baseball cards as books.
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:33.879
Oh, look at this.
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:34.599
I got tons of.
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:34.919
Yeah.
00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:36.359
Well, did you play baseball?
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:36.759
No.
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:42.759
Oh I just used to collect a bunch of baseball cards, and uh, if you collected baseball cards in the 80s and 90s and they overprinted them, they're not worth anything.
00:26:42.919 --> 00:26:43.799
So that's right.
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:44.919
They're bookmarks for me.
00:26:45.159 --> 00:26:45.480
That's right.
00:26:45.639 --> 00:26:54.519
Um before I talk about what's in it, just the subtitle uh How to Lead with Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Prove, and Nothing to Lose.
00:26:55.240 --> 00:27:06.439
I mean, what it hits you because everybody, it's it's like the opposite of what most leaders and most people that are out there trying to have any kind of an influence, typically they're they're hiding something.
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.279
A lot of times it is insecurity, like you mentioned.
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:10.679
So I'm gonna read a couple excerpts here and get your take on it.
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:14.759
But um, we're all trying to prove something, and typically you're trying not to lose.
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.279
A lot of people, unfortunately, instead of playing to win, you play not to lose.
00:27:18.439 --> 00:27:22.359
And you've always being athletes, we are always coached the opposite of that.
00:27:22.439 --> 00:27:25.720
It was like, hey, we have a strategy, go execute the strategy, win the game.
00:27:25.879 --> 00:27:30.919
When you're just playing not to lose, it's like you watch a team, you know, an NFL team go into the pre-vent defense, right?
00:27:31.159 --> 00:27:31.639
It never works.
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:36.919
100% in every armchair quarterback sitting there like the pre-vent defense never works because you're playing not to lose.
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:37.399
That's right.
00:27:37.639 --> 00:27:40.039
Um San Antonio Spurs this last year, right?
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:40.279
Yeah.
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:47.240
But unfortunately, it's what happens over and over and over again, not just in sports, but in leadership and in business and everything else.
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.159
So I mean, first off, is that your experience?
00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:54.839
So is that subtitle like, hey, this is what I see playing out?
00:27:55.079 --> 00:28:00.679
How do we like basically reverse course and teach people how to not do what we know doesn't work?
00:28:00.919 --> 00:28:02.439
Yeah, that's that's 100% it.
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.799
It's my experience, both, you know, observationally, but then also experientially.
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.119
Like I've I've experienced it myself.
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:17.079
And I think what happens is, you know, when people label you as a leader, I think immediately you start to believe that you have to sort of show up as 10 feet tall and bulletproof.
00:28:17.159 --> 00:28:17.240
Yeah.
00:28:17.399 --> 00:28:27.159
And then automatically that puts you sort of on the back foot because now you're like, well, I'm actually not 10 feet feet tall and bulletproof, but everybody thinks I am because I've done such a good job of convincing people that I am.
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:27.399
Yep.
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.919
And now you are completely defensive, potentially for the rest of your career, right?
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:31.960
That's a dangerous place to do it.
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:34.759
Yeah, the imposter syndrome just it's just always around you.
00:28:35.879 --> 00:28:36.839
Yeah, for sure.
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:42.359
I mean, how uh that's I mean the hiding part, but how do you feel like well?
00:28:42.439 --> 00:28:45.559
Let me just open the book and read some of these sections because I've got them marked.
00:28:45.639 --> 00:28:47.720
I mean, this uh basically you said insecurity.
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:50.439
This is insecure leaders, so this is on page 15.
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:55.319
Uh you say it takes a tremendous amount of energy to keep up illusions.
00:28:55.639 --> 00:28:58.599
Man, I've case I understand that.
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:03.799
It's exhausting to maintain the gap between who you are and who you'd like people to think you are.
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.439
I want to fast forward a bit.
00:29:06.919 --> 00:29:08.759
This goes into page 31.
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:15.480
Insecure leaders create the person they think others want them to be while never becoming the authentic person they were created to be.
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:18.679
I haven't read the book in a long time.
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:19.879
Dang that's true.
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:24.839
Well, what I thought I thought was cool about going through it is um it connects.
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.919
I always love how the Bible connects.
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.919
Like there's all those hyperlinks between Old Testament, New Testament, and the Gospels and all that stuff, right?
00:29:31.399 --> 00:29:32.759
Your book does that too.
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.559
Um, but then if we fast forward just even a little bit further, um here's this session.
00:29:37.639 --> 00:29:39.559
This is about reminding yourself you have nothing to prove.
00:29:39.639 --> 00:29:41.960
This this fast forwards into page 60 and 61.
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:48.200
But um here's what you say there's a big difference between the desire to lead and the desire to be viewed as a leader.
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.919
Authentic leaders, so this is what's great.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:57.319
We just talked about the insecure leader about never actually becoming who they were created to be because they're essentially they are hiding.
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:05.000
Authentic leaders don't sit down one day and decide they're going to be a leader, they aren't trying to prove their leadership abilities to anyone, which is I think is true.
00:30:05.079 --> 00:30:07.799
And then you lay out three versions of what an authentic leader is.
00:30:07.879 --> 00:30:09.159
I'll just read the sentences of it.
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:13.319
But uh, first, uh they see a problem, they decide to take ownership of it.
00:30:13.879 --> 00:30:17.319
They're not trying to be a leader, they're just trying to solve a problem.
00:30:17.639 --> 00:30:23.639
Uh number two, they decide to rally others to help solve the problem instead of being a hero and trying to do it all alone.
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:31.720
And then number three is uh they decide how to learn to maximize the talent and energy of the group to help them solve the problem and get results together.
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:33.480
But then your next sentence is great.
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.000
It says this involves a ton of hard work, which is true.
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:37.720
Understandable.
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.119
So let's let's let's start with the first ones.
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:51.399
The the insecure leaders are the people who basically they're always pretending, they're always hiding, they're always trying to be something versus actually fully letting themselves out.
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:55.240
And that insecurity basically dominates their thoughts and it dominates their actions.
00:30:55.399 --> 00:30:57.079
I mean, is that something that you've seen?
00:30:57.159 --> 00:30:59.079
And what's the best ways to overcome that?
00:30:59.319 --> 00:30:59.799
Yeah.
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:01.879
Yeah, yeah, you definitely see it.
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:04.919
I think, and people, you know, your listeners, I think will identify with this.
00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:10.359
I think when you're feeling insecure, your thoughts are dominated by the thoughts of other people.
00:31:10.439 --> 00:31:12.679
And so you walk into a room, you're like, what do they think of me?
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:13.639
What does that guy think of me?
00:31:13.879 --> 00:31:15.079
Why did that guy look at me funny?
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:15.960
How am I dressed?
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:19.079
Like everything is about like their thoughts about you.
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.559
But the reality is no one's thinking about you all that much, right?
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:22.679
But you believe they are.
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:23.000
Yeah.
00:31:23.159 --> 00:31:25.639
And so I think that's one real clear sign that you're insecure.
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:30.759
And one way to break that to your question is to really focus on service.
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:35.079
It's to stop thinking about what they're thinking of me and start thinking, what do they need?
00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:40.359
Like looking for gaps in their life, asking deeper questions, like hey man, how's it going?
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:41.480
Like just things like that.
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:44.359
And when you identify those things, it's not about you at all anymore.
00:31:44.439 --> 00:31:47.319
Now it's about you using your skills to help serve them.
00:31:47.399 --> 00:31:55.319
And suddenly you'll find when you actually solve people's problems, they just look at you like a leader because you're the one that actually helps them have a better life, right?
00:31:55.399 --> 00:31:58.519
So it's just this automatic sort of flywheel that starts with, dude.
00:31:58.599 --> 00:31:59.799
I mean, that's so good.
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:03.639
I mean, what a simple way to shift your mindset.
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:06.679
But I feel like a lot of why is that so hard to do?
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:08.519
Why can't people see that?
00:32:09.639 --> 00:32:11.559
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:22.839
You know, I think I think a lot of it has to do with us believing that we're not enough, you know, like thinking when I walk into a room, I have to come in with sort of these pre-established, you know, credentials.
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.960
I have to have already accomplished something for people to look at me a certain way.
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:29.639
And if I don't have that, then automatically I'm trying to earn that in the moment, right?
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:29.960
Yeah.
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.519
Um, part of that comes from our sinful nature, right?
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:35.319
Like we're trying to get from other people, which only comes from God.
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:42.519
And so we're constantly looking to our wife, our husband, our kids, our you know, boss or whatever for validation that should only come from Christ, right?
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:47.480
So that like natural, like I'm thirsty, you know, and I need you to fill me.
00:32:47.639 --> 00:32:49.720
Well, that really creates a ton of insecurity.
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:55.960
And people live their whole lives, they live and die with that, like every single day of their life, which is terrible.
00:32:56.439 --> 00:33:02.679
I think it's a really deeply secure person, an authentic person that can sort of set that aside and say, I think I'm good.
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:04.439
I think I have everything that I need.
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:06.279
I'm here to help you with what you need.
00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:12.519
What do you say to the leaders who are like, okay, it's hard for them to look and serve others and solve problems because they got problems?
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:17.879
Do you ever feel like people whose insecurity comes from like, well, why am I giving advice to that person?
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:19.079
How am I gonna go help?
00:33:19.159 --> 00:33:19.399
Yeah.
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.279
When I'm struggling with the exact same thing on my end.
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:23.240
Right, right.
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:24.279
Is that a reality?
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.200
I mean, I'm sure pastors deal with that all the time as well.
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:29.799
Definitely, definitely.
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:30.359
Yeah.
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:31.879
Yeah, I would I would agree.
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:38.200
I do think that there's a there's a sense that um if I need to get my act together before I can be somebody that leads.
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:41.399
But I think history shows that that's actually not true.
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.879
I think that leaders in particular clearly recognize they're still work in progress.
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:47.079
They don't wait until they're done.
00:33:47.159 --> 00:33:49.240
That if you do wait until you're done, you'll never be a leader.
00:33:49.399 --> 00:33:49.639
Yeah.
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:54.359
Um, one of the best examples that I have is uh from a book um by Ellie Vizel called Night.
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:55.240
Are you familiar with that?
00:33:55.639 --> 00:33:56.119
Really good book.
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:57.319
Uh it's about the Holocaust.
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.919
And it's about people who are in the Holocaust in the middle of sort of a concentration camp.
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:09.320
And one of the things he does in a couple different books, but one of the things he does in this book in particular is he highlights people who were able to, everyone is in this horrible situation.
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.840
All of us are sinking, all of us are like two steps from death.
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:21.880
But then he's able to highlight these people who sort of stood out as leaders because even in the middle of the frustration and the pain, they're able to serve other people.
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:22.119
Yeah.
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:23.800
And that sort of gave others life.
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:29.720
And so, somehow, even though I don't have my act together, even though things aren't ideal, I still find a way to help other people.
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:37.559
And immediately, back to what we said earlier, when you're able to serve and love people, suddenly people look to you as the one who might be able to help them out of their situation.
00:34:37.640 --> 00:34:40.440
And now you're a leader to one, two, ten, twenty, hundreds.
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:40.920
Yeah.
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:46.200
And I'm sure those guys who were the ones that were stepping up in those ways, it gives them something to wake up and live for too.
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:47.640
It gives them the purpose.
00:34:48.200 --> 00:34:48.280
Yeah.
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:48.680
100%.
00:34:49.080 --> 00:34:49.800
People are relying on me.
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:50.680
I need to be at my best.
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:51.400
I need to be better.
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:51.640
Yeah.
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.080
And so then you get better for the sake of service as opposed to status, right?
00:34:55.160 --> 00:34:56.200
It just all sort of works together.
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:56.600
All right.
00:34:56.680 --> 00:34:58.760
So this is another leadership style question.
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:02.039
But have you so you point out that it takes a ton of hard work to involve others.
00:35:02.120 --> 00:35:02.440
Yeah.
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.960
And man, is that the truth?
00:35:04.200 --> 00:35:06.600
Because some why is it worth it?
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:09.800
Because there's a lot of problems that I've fallen victim to this.
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.600
I know there's a lot of leadership when you're when you're a capable person and you're looking at like, all right, that's a problem.
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:16.519
I can just go fix it myself.
00:35:17.240 --> 00:35:18.680
And that's way easier.
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:26.360
I mean, honestly, it might take a little bit more effort, but it's way easier, even though it sounds weird, it takes more effort, but it's easier to just go fix the problem yourself.
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:27.880
Why is it worth it to include others?
00:35:28.120 --> 00:35:30.120
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.519
Um, I don't know if you've ever had this situation where you have built something and then the second you walked away, it like fell apart.
00:35:36.600 --> 00:35:36.760
Yeah.
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.320
Or you created something and you're like, oh, this is amazing.
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:42.120
And then as soon as you sort of stepped out of it, it just like collapsed.
00:35:42.200 --> 00:35:42.519
Yep.
00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:49.320
I think leaders have this desire to build and fix a problem permanently and create like an enduring solution.
00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:54.920
And I think for most people, that temptation to kind of do it themselves, uh, there's a name for it.
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.280
It's called founder syndrome, right?
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.039
So you're like, oh, I'll just fix it myself.
00:35:58.120 --> 00:35:58.760
I'll just do it myself.
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:01.320
Like, look, you guys just help me and I'll solve the problem.
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:05.080
And I think in reality, that isn't enduring, that doesn't sustain.
00:36:05.160 --> 00:36:11.320
And so if you're looking for a long-term sustainable solution to any problem or to even help people, you've got to pull a team together.
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.000
Like the old African proverb, right?
00:36:13.080 --> 00:36:14.360
If you want to go fast, go by yourself.
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.360
You want to go far, go together as a team, right?
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:19.800
It's that piece of going fast and then realizing I did it.
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:22.039
And then as soon as you step away, it all falls apart.
00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:24.760
Well, I look at like Jesus did it, and it's like he didn't have to do it.
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:30.519
That's a that's the ultimate example of like he did not need to include those 12 dudes.
00:36:30.680 --> 00:36:35.320
Like he did not need to include them in that would have been way easier for him to do it all himself.
00:36:35.720 --> 00:36:36.039
100%.
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.519
But like if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.
00:36:38.600 --> 00:36:40.840
But man, it's it's in practice, it's really hard.
00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:47.559
What I love about the Bible is that Jesus, I mean, I don't understand why this is recorded so many times, but it was where Jesus is like, are you guys so dull?
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:51.000
Or like are you still idiots?
00:36:51.080 --> 00:36:52.440
Like three years now.
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:54.360
Yeah, that's completely right.
00:36:54.600 --> 00:37:01.160
Like you can feel his frustration, yeah, which I think illustrates the the challenge of leading people, right?
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.559
Every time Peter says something dumb, like Jesus is like, get behind me.
00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:07.160
Yeah, you know, like that.
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.760
I think that is that's real.
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:12.600
But that's don't you wish you could have been a fly on the wall for some of those conversations?
00:37:12.680 --> 00:37:17.720
Because you read it and it's like, I I wish I could have seen the emphasis and the emotion.
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.680
And uh, or half the time was he just like laughing at them.
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.760
Right, like while he's saying, like, come on, yeah.
00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:24.440
He's like like laughing under his breath.
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:25.800
Like, this is ridiculous.
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.640
Like, God, do you see this?
00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:33.640
Like these guys, I'm sure it had to uh you know, just being the human nature of all of us and the way that that kind of stuff comes out.
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:34.200
That's it.
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:35.559
It'd be so fun to see that, wouldn't it?
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:36.600
I would I would agree.
00:37:36.680 --> 00:37:37.000
I would agree.
00:37:37.080 --> 00:37:40.120
There have been, I mean, if I could go back, there'd be a lot that I'd love to see.
00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:40.280
Yeah.
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:42.200
All right, so I'm gonna pivot here a little bit.
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.440
Um, you're from is it Wooster or Worcester?
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.760
How do people say it?
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:47.400
Small town.
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:49.400
I looked it up, it's got like 25,000 people in it.
00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:50.280
That's where you live.
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:58.519
Yet you're on global, like speaking at global leadership summit, like you're international now, like you're all over the place.
00:37:58.680 --> 00:38:03.000
I mean do you ever stop and think to yourself, like, why me?
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:04.120
Yeah.
00:38:04.600 --> 00:38:16.039
Like how it's just uh, whenever I see stuff like this, it's just it never surprises me because God is just willing to use whoever is willing to be useful to him.
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:19.640
Um, but when I see like you know, you're just this small town guy.
00:38:19.720 --> 00:38:20.039
Yeah.
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:27.000
And uh, you know, you played basketball at a small school and you're married, you're a dad, and then like now all of a sudden you're all around the world.
00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:28.600
Like, how's that hit you?
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.240
Yeah, yeah, it hits me in weird ways.
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:33.640
Um, and I'm really glad you're asking that question.
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:36.360
I think uh it's something you have to get used to.
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:37.960
There's a couple different dynamics to it.
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:43.000
I think one, when you go places that you've never been and people recognize you, that's weird.
00:38:43.160 --> 00:38:48.120
Like I told you I went to Mongolia, yeah, and like people knew my name, knew my life story before I even got there.
00:38:48.200 --> 00:38:50.440
And I was like, that's weird, or Nigeria or whatever.
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:54.680
So those are things that like that's that's interesting and that's a blessing in in some ways.
00:38:55.400 --> 00:39:01.400
Um but on the other end, you sort of realize you know, God uses just like you said, God uses anybody, right?
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:04.600
And so like it's not me to say, hey, not me.
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:12.200
It's not me to say me, you know, it's just him to be like, hey, I want you to do this thing, and we all have our things that we do, and so you do it as best as you can with what you got.
00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:19.160
But the parable the parable of the ten talents really sort of resonates with me a lot where you know you take what you have and you maximize it to his glory.
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:21.640
So how do you how do you keep yourself humble?
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.800
Because the the longer it goes and the more impact it has, obviously the spotlight gets a little bit brighter.
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:28.200
Yeah.
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:30.680
And uh you start getting asked to do more and more things.
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:33.720
Like I how do you not let it go to your head and stay humble?
00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:36.840
Yeah, you know, I would say there's there's two ways.
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.200
Um, I think about this a lot, so that's why I have two answers on the ready.
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:50.039
I think the first one is um you've got to take on greater challenges, like things that you're just not good at, and so you look like an idiot in front of a bunch of people.
00:39:50.120 --> 00:39:55.559
Like for right now, I am training for what a strategy that we're gonna mark down with make yourself look like an idiot.
00:39:55.720 --> 00:39:56.519
Right, right, right.
00:39:56.680 --> 00:40:00.280
And so, you know, humility comes with sort of that hard work and struggle.
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:02.760
Um, I'm training for a high rocks race.
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:04.680
Um, I love sort of exercise.
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:12.280
I want to stay fit until I'm in my 90s, and so part of that means I have to go out and run, and that means zone two running, which means I look like I'm running really, really slow.
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:23.160
And the only time to do it right now in my community is at the track in August, where the football team is training, and all of them look at me like some old 40-year-old guy that's like walking around the track and barely running.
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.920
It's always embarrassing when you got the high school athletes out there and you're embarrassing, yeah.
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.960
And they don't know who I am, they don't care that I have a doctorate and I've traveled.
00:40:30.200 --> 00:40:31.640
They're just like, look at that old tall gate.
00:40:32.680 --> 00:40:34.120
That guy's just barely hobbling around the track.
00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:36.200
I can kill that guy anytime I want to.
00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:36.760
100%.
00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:38.519
You're like, let's get on the field though, bro.
00:40:38.680 --> 00:40:39.480
Like, I don't know, I don't know.
00:40:39.640 --> 00:40:41.160
I got fright coming in, right?
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:42.360
I can still do it once.
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:43.160
That's all I need.
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:44.039
Let's go.
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:45.880
Yeah, so I think that's one.
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:51.160
I mean, and you you you should continually take on challenges to push yourself and maximize what God's given you.
00:40:51.240 --> 00:40:51.880
That's really important.
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:53.559
Don't rest on your laurels.
00:40:53.720 --> 00:40:56.200
I think on the other end, though, um, it's it's stuff like this, right?
00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:10.680
So when you and I met for the first time, I was really excited because both I saw your podcast, which I thought was really interesting, but I also saw that you were like striving to build something with a sense of humility, but also a sense of like, I think this can be big, I think this can reach a lot of people.
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:16.760
And so when you surround yourself with people like that, you know, you find yourself in positions where they hold you accountable, right?
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:17.880
And they're like, hey, come on now.
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:23.080
Yeah, like I I see you, like I get that you put your leg, your pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else.
00:41:23.240 --> 00:41:23.480
Yep.
00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:24.760
That is that is critical.
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:28.760
So community, authentic, genuine community, and then authentic, genuine challenges.
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:31.960
Those two things together, I think, usually usually help a ton.
00:41:32.120 --> 00:41:33.800
If one is missing, then you're in trouble.
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:34.600
That is good.
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:47.480
Well, and you you know yourself, and it's like, hey, no matter what stage you end up on, or you know, who's asking you or or who's giving you the praise and stuff like that, like on the inside, like I still know that I'm just this, I'm just dude, man.
00:41:47.720 --> 00:41:51.080
This screwed up normal guy that's still insecure and like all that kind of stuff.
00:41:51.160 --> 00:41:52.840
I mean, yeah, it's it's really cool.
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:59.480
Other people may look at you differently, but you as long as you're like keeping a good, healthy identity about yourself, yeah, yeah, that's really good.
00:41:59.720 --> 00:42:00.920
And it gets harder and harder, right?
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:09.080
The higher you go up, people really they've like thrust that on you, you know, and they want you to be because their livelihood is dependent on your ability to be that guy.
00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:20.760
And so they like they give you breaks, they excuse your bad behavior, your bad manners, you know, and so all the things that you might have been called on maybe years before, now people are allowing you to do or even encouraging you to do, that's a bad place to be.
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:28.840
So for like the driven, like purpose-filled individual that's got obviously got a lot of talent, you could probably take your life a lot of different directions.
00:42:29.080 --> 00:42:38.200
Is there any kind of rhythms that you've got with God that you rinse either ideas or opportunities through to kind of hear from him and know, like, is this supposed to be a step I take?
00:42:38.680 --> 00:42:40.680
Or is this a step that's a distraction?
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:42.760
How do you do how do you determine that?
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:44.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:44.600 --> 00:42:44.920
Yeah.
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.440
So the process of discernment for me is, I mean, a um prayer without ceasing, right?
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:58.600
So that being that constant posture of prayer, gosh, even as I say it right again, you know, having grown up in church, like that could just sound like churchy words.
00:42:58.680 --> 00:42:58.840
Yeah.
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:02.039
And I think for a lot of people it does, but it is not for me.
00:43:02.120 --> 00:43:03.400
And I imagine it's not for you.
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:05.880
Like you are praying a lot.
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:07.960
And I think that's that's really important.
00:43:08.680 --> 00:43:09.720
Um, that's the one.
00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:12.120
Obviously, your spouse is another filter, right?
00:43:12.200 --> 00:43:19.400
So you sort of hitched your wagon to hers, yeah, you know, or to his if you're a woman, and you sort of said, Hey, look, we have a shared vision for what God's doing through us.
00:43:19.720 --> 00:43:25.640
And so you trust God to speak through her and or through him as much as as much as you know to you.
00:43:26.120 --> 00:43:27.080
That's another element of it.
00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:36.760
But for me, God has just for some reason given me just an un unusual degree of clarity around what I'm supposed to do over the next X number of years.
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:42.680
And so usually I try to filter it against that and like, hey, does this and if it doesn't, it's easy to say no.
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:43.000
Yeah.
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:45.240
Because this is where I'm headed, this is why I'm going there.
00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:49.640
But how how do you determine maybe when this is what I found hard.
00:43:49.720 --> 00:43:50.920
So I'm gonna this is a personal question.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:52.440
I kind of want to know how you do it.
00:43:52.680 --> 00:44:01.080
Um when there's uh no shortage of good opportunities and when they come, it's like, man, it looks fun.
00:44:01.240 --> 00:44:03.160
I want to I want to sink my teeth into that.
00:44:03.240 --> 00:44:09.880
That looks like something that would be really not only you know challenging and like a really cool opportunity to go try to seize, but also fun.
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.240
And uh, but you can't do everything, you don't have enough time.
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:15.080
How do you decide which ones to turn down?
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:20.039
Even if they look, let's let's give it a practical example.
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:24.840
Let's say that you're already on track one, you've already said yes to something, it's already in motion.
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:25.240
Yep.
00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:28.680
You can't back out of that because you got to see it through to the end.
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:31.320
Just starting things with and never getting to finish lines.
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:33.880
I mean, that's it's a recipe for it and just never going anywhere.
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:43.240
So you gotta see stuff through to the end, and then another pop opportunity pops up and it's shinier, and you're like, man, I really wish I would have known about that before I started this thing.
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:44.039
Right, right.
00:44:44.200 --> 00:44:46.600
Um how do you say no to stuff?
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:49.320
Is there like an actual way that you've decided on your own?
00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:51.480
Like, is it just that you just say flat out no?
00:44:51.640 --> 00:44:53.160
Do you put stuff on the back burner?
00:44:53.320 --> 00:45:00.280
Um, do you allow yourself to get involved a little bit and like maybe help set direction and guide, but I'm not actually gonna do the work?
00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:06.600
Like, is there uh give me this like a practical example of how you just actually say no and shut it down and stay on target?
00:45:07.080 --> 00:45:09.080
That's a great that's a great question.
00:45:09.160 --> 00:45:12.200
You're asking about the actual details of how you say no.
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:13.480
Yeah, that's good.
00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:14.600
Yeah.
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:19.240
So I think for me, it starts with the calendar.
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:25.160
I like you probably have a blocked calendar where like I know exactly what I should be doing in every minute of every day.
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.360
If you ask me, Dan, what were you doing three weeks ago on Thursday?
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:29.480
I could tell you exactly.
00:45:29.640 --> 00:45:34.360
If you ask me what are you gonna be doing two weeks from now on Friday morning, I can tell you exactly what I'm doing.
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.080
What are you gonna be eating like next Tuesday for lunch?
00:45:37.240 --> 00:45:38.600
I know exactly what I'm eating, right?
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:39.240
That level.
00:45:39.640 --> 00:45:43.480
And so you take that and you say, these are the things that I think God's calling me to in this season.
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.920
Something else comes in, you're like, okay, well, what's gotta go?
00:45:47.160 --> 00:45:49.400
And have I made any enduring commitments?
00:45:49.720 --> 00:45:55.480
And I think if you have, then you start thinking to yourself, God, is there anything you want me to take off my plate before I add something on there?
00:45:55.640 --> 00:45:55.800
Yeah.
00:45:56.039 --> 00:46:01.960
There's some things that just are like big rocks that don't move, like physical health and like spiritual health and like relational health.
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:04.440
Those are the things that like you just can't change.
00:46:04.600 --> 00:46:11.000
But then there's a whole lot of time that is sort of discretionary time, and that's where you go to God and you're like, All right, this is the time I have.
00:46:11.160 --> 00:46:11.880
Like, what needs to be?
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:12.760
What do you want to fill it with?
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:13.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:13.559
Yeah.
00:46:13.640 --> 00:46:15.720
I mean, I for example, like you've written one book.
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.320
I'm sure you have ideas for more books.
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:18.039
You got it.
00:46:18.200 --> 00:46:21.240
And I'm sure you have more ideas than there are books to write.
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:23.240
I mean, I that's what hits my head all the time.
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:23.480
Yeah.
00:46:23.640 --> 00:46:27.720
I mean, there's stuff like that that's always popping up, and it's like, all right, how do I just shut it down?
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:28.120
Right.
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.240
You can't shut it down.
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:36.200
I don't think God wants us to shut it down, but I think He is He is calling us to be specific with how we go operate on a daily basis.
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:38.519
So, you know, it just can't be randomness all the time.
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:39.640
And maybe you have this.
00:46:39.720 --> 00:46:41.720
I mean, uh, what's the old phrase?
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:45.240
Uh, the number one killer of entrepreneurs is drowning in opportunity.
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:45.480
Yeah.
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:45.800
Right.
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:47.720
So like you have all these things, you say yes to everything.
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:53.240
I I don't know how it is for you, but for me, I have this like draw to big, hairy, audacious goals, right?
00:46:53.559 --> 00:47:02.039
Like to Jim's Collins' Jim Collins' phrase, like this idea that like the best things that will pay off five years from now will be very, very hard today.
00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:09.480
And I should sort of strap myself and double tie myself and do the hard thing now, so that five years from now it'll come come to pass, right?
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:14.120
That those things I tend to lean more towards as opposed to the quick, like, hey, do you want to be on this board?
00:47:14.200 --> 00:47:16.200
Or hey, do you want to, you know, like things like that?
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:17.640
I usually say no to.
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:18.840
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:19.160
All right.
00:47:19.240 --> 00:47:20.760
So you mentioned marriage a couple of times.
00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:21.320
Yeah.
00:47:21.640 --> 00:47:31.800
Is there anything that you found that are rhythms that you and your wife have created to where while your time is getting tugged on, yeah, um, that you guys are like, hey, this is obviously priority number one.
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:32.039
Yeah.
00:47:32.200 --> 00:47:39.000
I can't be a good father, I can't go be a good leader, I can't go any really do much unless like this thing is locked down.
00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:40.440
I gotta have my marriage locked down.
00:47:40.600 --> 00:47:43.880
What are some of the rhythms we're uh thought about rhythms you guys have created?
00:47:44.120 --> 00:47:45.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.080
So um a strong marriage is really important to me, right?
00:47:49.160 --> 00:47:49.960
As is to you.
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:52.760
That was one of the reasons why I got excited when we had our conversation.
00:47:53.240 --> 00:47:59.559
Um I don't know about you, but whenever I see somebody famous on TV, the very first thing I look at is like, tell me about their background.
00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:00.600
Yeah, their personal life.
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.920
Like I'm very interested in behind the scenes as opposed to the front stage.
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:10.680
Um But I think like Matt Damon, for example, he was just in the Odyssey.
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:12.039
He's been married for 20 years, right?
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:13.000
I'm like, that's rare.
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:14.920
So I think Hollywood is super rare.
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:16.280
Unbelievably rare, right?
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:22.600
So there's some practices that he's put into place, and there's a couple that are pretty obvious, but I think for us, um, there's a couple things.
00:48:22.680 --> 00:48:26.440
Like, number one, um, I have this like rock solid commitment to my girls, right?
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.080
Uh my two daughters, Eden and Anniston, they're 10 and 13.
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:35.400
One of the things that we did this summer is that we did 100 days of workouts, so a hundred days straight, right?
00:48:35.640 --> 00:48:38.440
Every single day, they have a prescribed thing that they do.
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.680
It's not hard every day, but it's about consistency.
00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:41.240
Yeah, right.
00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:43.080
And so it's like, hey, this might be really hard.
00:48:43.160 --> 00:48:47.240
We might be on vacation, but like, let's carve out 15 minutes and let's do the thing, you know?
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:51.800
And I'll be here with you and I'll make sure you, you know, and I'll I'll do it with you sometimes and things like that.
00:48:51.960 --> 00:49:00.440
I think just making these long-term investments and our daughters and making sure that I am present, you know, or at least um emotionally present for all of that is really important.
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:02.840
And it's important to my wife that I'm investing that way.
00:49:03.080 --> 00:49:06.280
Um, for us, you know, during the school year we'll do date nights, right?
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.640
So we'll take some time away.
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:10.440
Sometimes we will get coffee once a week is really important to us.
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:12.920
That's kind of a normal thing for a lot of Christian couples.
00:49:13.160 --> 00:49:21.080
I think the one thing that's really unique about us is that I try to I travel once once a week, probably to a different country.
00:49:21.160 --> 00:49:24.120
Um, excuse me, I travel once a month, I should say, to a different country.
00:49:24.200 --> 00:49:30.280
So Eric and I have made an agreement that I can sort of travel really anywhere seven days out of the month, right?
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.480
And so I'm jamming in as much as I possibly can in those seven days.
00:49:33.720 --> 00:49:37.000
Yeah, you're like, I gotta hit a couple stops at least along the way.
00:49:37.080 --> 00:49:42.120
Yeah, like two days in Cape Town and then two days in Uganda and the, you know, trying to make it all happen.
00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:47.640
But I think the reality is um that that's that's really important, um, having those prescribed days.
00:49:47.720 --> 00:49:51.559
But at the same time, I try to take them with me whenever I can.
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:53.960
And so that has been really, really rich.
00:49:54.200 --> 00:49:59.559
Branches has done a lot to really enable me to take my family with me, again, valuing that family time.
00:49:59.640 --> 00:50:06.440
So when they're when we're together in a different country or we're together in a different city, it just creates a different sort of intense dynamic.
00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:07.080
Oh, sure.
00:50:07.240 --> 00:50:20.680
Where you know, you could have a bunch of dinners at six o'clock every day and not get the level of depth and intensity that you do when you're traveling together through like Rwanda, you know, and you like see things together in their eyeballs and their light bulbs, experiencing things.
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:22.440
Man, what great learning for your kids.
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:23.080
So good.
00:50:23.160 --> 00:50:23.320
Yeah.
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.160
I mean, I I'm my wife loves to travel.
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:28.120
Oh, does she?
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:32.120
If I had your job, that's like a dream job for me in her eyes.
00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:35.000
Because then like we would get to go experience the world together.
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:36.680
100%.
00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:37.240
Yeah.
00:50:37.640 --> 00:50:40.840
And um there's nothing quite like hands-on learning for kids.
00:50:41.080 --> 00:50:49.480
I mean, you can you can read it in a book and you can look at Google Images or something like that about places, but to go experience the culture and see it, hear the language, yeah, exactly.
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:50.840
The the senses come alive.
00:50:51.160 --> 00:50:52.760
Uh you can't replace that, man.
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.559
So, like what your girls get to experience through your work.
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:56.039
Yeah.
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:57.080
How cool is that?
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:04.840
One of the things I think that has been most impactful for my girls is whenever we've traveled to some places, I'd really try to help them find kids their own age.
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:05.160
Yeah.
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:05.480
Right?
00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:12.920
Like when you're overseas, like Costa Rica, for example, there's a family there that branches works with, an entrepreneur that, man, he's an incredible guy, but he has this amazing family.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.440
His kids are the same age as my kids.
00:51:14.680 --> 00:51:24.840
So when you go to Costa Rica, right, and you have this idea that it's a third world country, which it's not, but you have this idea that it's like a developing country, which it is, and you start thinking to yourself, like, okay, like this is what the situation is.
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:32.920
But then our girls meet friends there, and they realize those guys, they're not like, they're not, you know, crying in their soup, you know, they love their life.
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:33.880
They're like, this is great.
00:51:33.960 --> 00:51:39.960
It sort of does this dynamic shift where you're like, oh my gosh, there's people all over the world that are that are fine.
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:48.039
We really do get this idea in America that like this is the only place where you can pursue happiness, and everywhere else is just wishing they were us, you know.
00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:48.680
Exactly.
00:51:49.160 --> 00:51:49.880
It's not the case.
00:51:50.120 --> 00:51:53.160
I mean, they're fine with us, but they're also they everyone loves their community.
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:55.720
So, like, if I could go back to Uganda, I would.
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:56.600
I like this better.
00:51:56.680 --> 00:52:01.640
You know, there's just people who who want what God has given them in their own community and they prefer that.
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:02.200
100%.
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:03.800
It's good for our girls to have that perspective.
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:05.080
Dude, it's so cool.
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:11.800
Well, I asked this question to everybody, and it's awesome to see like there's the breadth of answers that come out.
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:20.519
But for the leader who maybe you know knows Christ, uh, where their faith is coming alive, they want to fully integrate themselves, but they're just afraid to do it.
00:52:20.600 --> 00:52:29.720
Yeah, like you're just scared to take the steps, just whether it's because you don't know what people are gonna think about you, or you don't know if you're gonna lose your job or if you're gonna lose a client or whatever it is.
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:31.480
What would you say to encourage that person?
00:52:31.720 --> 00:52:34.519
To encourage, like just incorporate their faith in everything they're doing.
00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:36.200
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:52:36.600 --> 00:52:44.360
So here's what I would say I would say in order to incorporate your faith in any sphere, anywhere in the world, you have to start with the fruits of the spirit.
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:56.120
I think it's hard, unbelievably hard for people to object to an employee or to a boss who displays love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, and self-control.
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:57.320
Like, I don't want that.
00:52:57.400 --> 00:52:59.000
Like, I don't want your kindness here.
00:52:59.080 --> 00:53:00.680
Like everybody wants that, right?
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:01.800
So you start there.
00:53:02.200 --> 00:53:08.920
And then I think over time, because I think in a lot of ways, business and and you know, corporate culture, it there's a lot of formalities there.
00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:15.080
But then everybody knows there's a lot of informality, there's a lot of conversation that happens in between that has nothing to do with the work.
00:53:15.240 --> 00:53:16.760
Yeah, like we all talk about sports.
00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:23.720
Sometimes we bring up our family, sometimes we talk about our health and our hobbies and things that happen outside of just sort of the day-to-day PLs and the you know, whatever.
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:27.160
Yeah, and those are opportunities for you to be genuine about you.
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:28.280
Hey, what'd you do this weekend?
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:28.840
I went to church.
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:29.559
Man, great sermon.
00:53:29.640 --> 00:53:29.880
I loved it.
00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:30.360
How about you?
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:30.840
What'd you do?
00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:34.680
I'm not trying to tell you to believe anything, I'm just telling you, man, this is what's important to me.
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:36.280
Yeah, I also I also love running.
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:37.880
I did that this weekend too, you know.
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:52.680
But over time, I think what happens, combination of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and gent, gentleness and self-control, that on top of you being open about your whole life, suddenly you have opportunities to sort of uh help people where their gaps show up.
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.559
Yeah, they talk about their life, and inevitably, if they're not in Christ, there's lots of gaps.
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:02.840
Like I'm dealing with insecurity, I'm dealing with my in-laws, I'm dealing with financial problems, I'm dealing with my health, you know.
00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:07.240
And in those moments, this is the thing that we talked about in church a lot when I was a full-time pastor.
00:54:07.640 --> 00:54:14.680
In those moments, you can create God space where you can say, Hey man, can I tell you a little bit about how I've handled situations like that?
00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:21.880
And again, your personal conduct plus your transparency creates an opportunity for you to be open to people about the hope that you live with.
00:54:22.200 --> 00:54:22.360
Yeah.
00:54:22.600 --> 00:54:26.280
And so again, there's ways you can do it officially, right?
00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:37.240
Like in branches, you know, we we tell we teach that if you're running a business, your healthcare policy, your products, like the way you deal with customers, like all of that can communicate God's kingdom in a very sort of intentional way.
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:37.559
Yeah.
00:54:37.720 --> 00:54:44.280
But if you're an employee sort of working in a company, you don't have the sort of the levers to change company culture just like an employer would.
00:54:44.680 --> 00:54:47.480
The best way to do that is through your individual influence, right?
00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:48.680
And there's a strategy to that.
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:50.600
Man, I just love the simple question.
00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:51.720
May I share with you?
00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:53.000
Like that's so Dr.
00:54:53.080 --> 00:54:54.840
Heller, I think I talked to you a little bit about him.
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:55.240
Yeah.
00:54:55.400 --> 00:54:56.440
Um, that's his thing.
00:54:56.600 --> 00:55:00.200
He he runs a thing called May I Share Ministries, and that's why that's how it started.
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:00.920
Oh, no way, wow.
00:55:01.160 --> 00:55:08.200
Is just asking simple questions and being willing to share, but then saying, Hey, may I share with you like you know something that happened and how I'm getting through it?
00:55:08.600 --> 00:55:09.800
Nobody's gonna ever deny you.
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:10.039
Yeah.
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:13.000
How often is somebody you're gonna ask that question, like so what you just said?
00:55:13.080 --> 00:55:13.160
Yeah.
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:15.559
Like, hey, why don't can I tell you about how I've dealt with that in the past?
00:55:15.720 --> 00:55:16.360
No, I don't want to.
00:55:16.600 --> 00:55:22.200
Someone's gonna be like, No, I don't want I don't want your just natural human instinct is gonna be like, Yeah, sure.
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:22.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:23.080 --> 00:55:30.039
Then you can talk about your faith and you can talk about God and the goodness of God and how he's pulled you out and pulled you through in a genuine way.
00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:30.519
100%.
00:55:31.240 --> 00:55:32.760
You're not walking people through the Romans road.
00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:34.840
You're just saying, look, this is what this is what's happened to me.
00:55:35.240 --> 00:55:36.920
Come and see how he has changed my life.
00:55:37.160 --> 00:55:37.480
100%.
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:41.160
And then people get curious, or just a the simple invitation after that.
00:55:41.240 --> 00:55:43.800
Hey, if you ever want to check it out, I'm gonna open door for you.
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:44.519
Yeah, come with me.
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:45.320
That's it.
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:47.000
I'm going, hey, I'm going next week.
00:55:47.160 --> 00:55:50.840
If if if you think about it and you want to come, yeah, hit me up.
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:51.559
We'll go together.
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:53.000
Just simple invitations.
00:55:53.240 --> 00:55:53.559
You got it.
00:55:53.640 --> 00:55:56.280
And I think, I think for and you this is something that you probably recognize.
00:55:56.360 --> 00:55:59.080
I think for Christians, we feel a lot of pressure.
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:02.760
Because, you know, look, it someone's eternal damnation is potentially on the line.
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:06.680
So we're like, oh, you know, we get all but the reality is that that's not it, right?
00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:12.600
Like here's the thing, what you just mentioned, there are eternal damnations on the line or eternity with God is on the line.
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.760
But yet we're too nervous to do the simple thing you just said.
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.480
Like it just it doesn't seem like those two worlds collide nice and they don't fit.
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:27.640
It's like while I know that I have what we both need for the rest of eternity, right?
00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:31.160
But I'm unwilling to give you my testimony and ask you if you want to come check it out.
00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:31.720
That's it.
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:32.120
That's it.
00:56:32.200 --> 00:56:32.280
Yeah.
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:35.160
And I think here's what I think it is.
00:56:35.240 --> 00:56:37.480
I think it it's that um, what's it, what's it called?
00:56:37.640 --> 00:56:39.720
Um, you know, the yips when you're golfing, yeah.
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:39.880
Right?
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:42.120
It's like the pressure gets to you.
00:56:42.200 --> 00:56:50.440
And I think that the remedy for that, and I've seen a lot of Christians handle this this way, is just decrease the pressure and be like, hey, look, like I don't have to convert this person in this moment.
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:56.039
In fact, I'm probably one of 11 people that are gonna talk to them statistically that will help them come to Christ.
00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:57.960
I'm just one piece of the puzzle.
00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:09.400
Or it's gonna be four or five conversations, but it just needs to be natural and authentic and invite them to church or invite them to a conversation the same way I'd invite them to talk about my favorite sports team or my favorite restaurant.
00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:11.240
Like, look, I just want to tell you what I enjoy.
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:12.039
What do you enjoy?
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:12.680
Yeah.
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:20.440
It's like uh, how can I be just as passionate about sharing that that I about like some awesome dinner I had out on Saturday and I you got it, yeah.
00:57:20.680 --> 00:57:25.720
But like what you mentioned was what I which I love, it's like, yeah, we went to church, man, the sermon was awesome.
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:26.280
So good.
00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:28.360
Like it was something that just you know it really hit me.
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:35.160
A lot of times we'll just leave that out and we'll talk about, you know, oh yeah, we went to this place, that why not throw church in the mix?
00:57:35.240 --> 00:57:36.200
Yeah, it's what you did.
00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:36.840
It's simple.
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.120
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly right.
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:39.880
It's it's really just be real.
00:57:41.080 --> 00:57:42.039
Just tell the truth.
00:57:42.200 --> 00:57:44.280
Go to a church that grows you and then talk about it.
00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:46.280
You know, it's not that hard, man.
00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:47.240
Yeah, I would agree.
00:57:47.800 --> 00:58:03.240
Yeah, I mean we say that, but like yeah, I remember being the guy, and I've I've said this openly on the show, I remember being the guy that was afraid to hit like on a LinkedIn post that had anything to do with God because I was afraid of what my coworkers would think if they saw it, or you know, my boss would think if he saw it.
00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:08.360
And I'm like, what a stupid weird in the in the past, looking back and just being like, what was wrong with that?
00:58:08.600 --> 00:58:09.720
There's fears, you gotta.
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:10.680
But I was there.
00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:11.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:16.840
And uh what I just love is hearing this kind of stuff because it's a real practical example of somebody else that's going through that now.
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:18.360
It's like just get over the hump.
00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:21.800
Yeah, just try it once and you'll realize it's not really that scary.
00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:22.360
I would agree.
00:58:22.600 --> 00:58:24.840
You know, if if God's in it, he's gonna carry you through it, man.
00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:25.480
So I would agree.
00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:25.880
I would agree.
00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:29.800
And I think, honestly, I think there is a little bit of a stigma with Christians sometimes.
00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:35.000
I think that everybody, every Christian has a picture of like the Christian they don't want to be, yeah, you know, in the back of their minds.
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:36.920
Like, what if they think I'm that guy, you know?
00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:39.480
And that and you and everything you said is out of protection.
00:58:39.640 --> 00:58:43.000
Because there are there is ways to go about it that actually are are turn off from the faith.
00:58:43.080 --> 00:58:50.840
If it's if it's too over the top or if it's too in your face and and pushy right off the rip, um people put defenses up.
00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:53.640
And then you're sort of you're hurting yourself in the long run.
00:58:53.720 --> 00:58:53.880
Yeah.
00:58:54.120 --> 00:59:05.480
But I think just like you said, and just like I'm saying, I think the the authenticity of the authenticity of the relationship, yeah, and the authenticity of the experience that you've had that you're communicating to them really sort of overcomes a lot of that.
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:06.120
100%.
00:59:06.680 --> 00:59:07.720
I love it, man.
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:09.559
Well, what's coming up next for you?
00:59:09.640 --> 00:59:12.760
Is there anything that you're excited about that's uh that's on the horizon here this year?
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:14.280
Yeah, right now I'm summer's over.
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:15.240
Kids are going back to school.
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:16.519
They're going back to school, man.
00:59:16.600 --> 00:59:18.039
They are like dreading it.
00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:24.280
I mean, they enjoy school, but ready to ready to kind of get past the school year, at least in the initial hump.
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.440
I think for me, um, writing a book right now, right?
00:59:26.680 --> 00:59:29.720
So working on this new book, I'm really passionate about the idea of.
00:59:30.120 --> 00:59:32.039
Is the title out yet, or is that still under wraps?
00:59:32.200 --> 00:59:33.000
You know, you don't have to say it.
00:59:33.160 --> 00:59:34.440
Still under wraps, still under wraps.
00:59:34.680 --> 00:59:37.559
But it's it's about the the two different ways that you can grow a business.
00:59:37.720 --> 00:59:37.880
Yeah.
00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.280
Um, and one, I think we might have talked about this a little bit before.
00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:45.320
I think one is really focused on um sort of getting as much out of it as you can.
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:50.039
The other one is focused on building something that actually makes lives better and changes the world.
00:59:50.120 --> 00:59:54.280
And so the two different sort of mechanisms that I'm using is beef and baby.
00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:55.720
Um, you invest in both.
00:59:55.800 --> 01:00:03.240
Like one is like a beef cow, you invest in a cow, you milk it for all it's worth, and then when it stops milking, you just slaughter that thing for parts, right?
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:03.640
Yeah.
01:00:03.640 --> 01:00:05.000
And that's what a lot of businesses are.
01:00:05.160 --> 01:00:07.480
They're like, look, I'm just trying to get as much money out of this as I can.
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:10.200
And then when I stop producing money, I'm gonna sell it for parts.
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:13.960
The other one is a baby, where you're like, I just want to see what this can become in the world.
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:16.680
I'm making investments, but I'm not counting my investments.
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:23.960
I'm not, I want to see how this can change lives and who this can become and what sort of people are changed by interacting with this thing.
01:00:24.120 --> 01:00:28.840
And that posture changes the way that you view anything that you get into as a business leader.
01:00:29.080 --> 01:00:29.880
Yeah, that's good.
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:33.000
Yeah, you wouldn't think that those two things go together really well as an analogy.
01:00:33.160 --> 01:00:35.720
Uh but uh but they do, yeah, it works out perfect, man.
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:36.200
I love it.
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:38.200
Well, when's it do you have any idea when it's coming out?
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:39.160
Do you have any kind of a date yet?
01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:41.240
Yeah, so we're looking at 2028.
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:42.840
Um working with publishers right now.
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:47.800
And so it's just actually I have a literary agent on the phone um here in about an hour and a half to talking about the book.
01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:48.840
So looking forward to that.
01:00:49.080 --> 01:00:49.320
I love it.
01:00:49.640 --> 01:00:50.039
So cool.
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:51.480
Well, thank you for being here.
01:00:51.640 --> 01:00:55.960
Um, I'll obviously post everything for branches and ways to connect with you, uh, which I think is great.
01:00:56.039 --> 01:00:57.320
But yeah, really appreciate it, man.
01:00:57.720 --> 01:00:58.600
This has been a ton of fun, man.
01:00:58.680 --> 01:00:59.400
Thanks for taking the time.
01:00:59.640 --> 01:01:00.120
Absolutely.
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:04.840
Yeah, if you want uh more resources, uh books, prior episodes, you can get it at markgreaves.com.
01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:05.880
But we're over now.