Should We Send Them Home? - First Class Counselors #80

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:03.680
You are not also expected to have all the answers as a counselor.
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.759
That's why you have unit heads.
00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:10.320
That's why you have directors who might have those have more strategies that they can give you.
00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.039
The kid who just doesn't know how to use the broom, right?
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.439
They're just kind of looks like they're messing up on purpose.
00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:17.199
So somebody will just handle it for them.
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:25.920
I think those things can get really stressful, but a lot of times, like we just have to accept that a camper might not know something and that camp is learning.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:31.440
This is First Class Counselors, another innovative podcast brought to you by Camp Hacker.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:36.719
First Class Counselors is dedicated to young and up-and-coming camp efforts.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:46.399
By equipping and empowering our on-the-ground staff, camp directors can rest easy knowing that our campers are having the true life-changing experience that parents expect.
00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:52.960
Find our show notes and our blog for camp leaders and professionals at camphacker.tv.
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:01.840
AMSkyer is a leading insurance and strategic partner for many of the finest camps in America.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:08.079
AM Skyer partners with camps to provide public relations, legal, medical, behavioral support, and more.
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:10.159
Experience the AMSkire difference.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.640
Learn more at AMSkyer.com.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:20.239
Welcome to First Class Counselors, where we give camp counselors insider tips and advice on how to make a camper summer the best it can be.
00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:36.879
And whether you are brand new to the camp world or you have told campers to stop running on the pool deck and tie their shoes a thousand times, you know that self-improvement and a growth mindset is built into the DNA of every great staff member, or dare we say it, every great first class counselor.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:39.040
My name is Oliver Griegan.
00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:44.159
I'm the director of camping services at YMC at Camp Westwood with the YMC of Pawtucket in Commentary, Rhode Island.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:49.359
We are a rebuilding day camp that looks to introduce overnight camp pretty soon in 2026.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.439
And Matt already hinted at what we're going to talk about, but Matt, introduce yourself.
00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:55.280
I my name is Matt Wilfrid.
00:01:55.359 --> 00:02:00.560
My pronouns are he him, and I'm the executive producer of podcasting and a consultant with Go Camp Pro.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.000
Oliver, set the stage.
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:03.359
I I'm excited for this one.
00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.879
Set the stage for this episode.
00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:05.920
Yeah, of course.
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.280
It's week one at camp, or it's week six.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:17.520
It doesn't matter, but you need to get to flagpole, and you have a kid in the cabin who you've now told three times to get out of bed.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:18.879
Everybody else is ready.
00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:19.919
They're not.
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.919
And when you get to flagpole, everything is super quiet.
00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:32.479
And all of a sudden you hear a loud bark noise, and you look over and you see him giggling.
00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:39.039
You see that camper who's just laughing their head off, and you're like, that is not the time for that.
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:47.039
And as time goes on, you're now making your way to breakfast, and the same camper is just like, I don't I don't eat eggs, right?
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:50.080
I don't eat like and that is what's for breakfast.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:58.159
So now you have to go and you have to find some cereal that maybe they will consume, but there is no cereal that they like.
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:08.000
You actually have a secret box of Captain Crunch that you keep just for yourself on like your morning off breakfast, and you pull that out just to make sure that this kid eats in the morning.
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:19.759
It's and and then it's time to clean up around the table, and you are get helping wipe down the table, and you look up this camper, and they're using the a pull broom, I guess, and it's as a push broom.
00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.879
They're just using their broom improperly, they're not really cleaning up.
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:33.680
They actually probably make a bigger mess by spilling some milk on the ground, and then they're using a dry mop to clean up a wet mess, and you're like, Oh gosh almighty, okay.
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:41.599
And all you know at this point in time is this is either incompetence or weaponized incompetence.
00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:43.439
You're just struggling.
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:45.039
It's not 9 a.m.
00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:52.719
yet, the coffee machine is broken, and in your head, this kid just needs to go.
00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:53.919
You're done.
00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.520
That that is hard.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.800
So we're gonna be talking about campers that grind our gears.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:03.840
And and as directors, Oliver and I, we've been in the position where staff have come up to us.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.039
I heck, when we were counselors, I'm sure we've had that thought.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.520
So we want to we want to empathize with that thought on this episode.
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:19.600
And because, you know, at the end of the day, we don't have to unpack this too much, but like the decision to send a camper home isn't usually up to you as a counselor.
00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.759
It's a decision that, you know, rests with your camp policies and leadership team.
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:36.240
So while in your mind it might be an easy decision and and man oh man, and sometimes it feels like we get there, we we are here to empathize with you and maybe give you some other perspectives and strategies along the way.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:45.040
But really at the end of the day, remember that the camp experience is important for these campers and you know, especially for some of these campers.
00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:50.560
So usually our episodes are very practical, but I'll just point you to a couple from this season.
00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:55.920
We did two great episodes, one about stopping inappropriate language and building a culture of belonging.
00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.519
Those are just in the last couple episodes, if you're following along in the feed.
00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:05.600
So check those out for the practical strategies, but we're we're just gonna go high empathy on this one.
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:10.959
Yeah, I think it's not so much about just building skills, it's about understanding that situation.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.959
There are gonna be a lot of counselors, you included, who are gonna go through this summer, who are gonna feel these feelings, right?
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:25.360
And while there will be some equipment that we put you through or give to you during this show, we want to make sure that you understand like you can get through this.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:26.800
It's gonna be okay.
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:34.079
So we wanted to start off by kind of categorizing what gets us upset on camp, right?
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.399
Like, what are the triggers for you as a counselor?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:47.839
And what are campers gonna do that are really gonna get you just thinking about how upset you are, or maybe not even understanding that you are upset, you're just in that moment of frustration.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.560
So, one of the things I think really sets me off, or always set me off as a counselor, was time.
00:05:52.800 --> 00:06:03.439
Being on time on camp is huge, whether it's getting to lunch, getting to your activity, you know, wrapping up evening program on time, meds, oh a med pass was always a nightmare.
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:09.040
It just felt like it took forever, and and campers would be late or not show up, and you have to go and fetch them.
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:14.560
So there's so many different things when it comes to time that can lead to frustration, right?
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.480
And as a counselor dealing with those things, there are things that you can do, right?
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.959
There, you can incentivize getting campers to from A to B.
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:27.680
You can gear them up and prep them and be like, oh man, I think flagpole is gonna be really exciting today.
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:33.199
Let's make sure that we get there on time because I think it's just I think there's something going on.
00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:38.079
I I think I saw a leadership staff member getting something super special ready, right?
00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:55.759
And I think as a leadership staff member too, like think about it on that way is like the more you make those times enjoyable and have something to anticipate, especially those large camp gatherings that you need everyone to be on time for, the more you can equip those incentivized events or mysteries or activities for people.
00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.399
It really does help people get there on time and you build those things up so people can get excited.
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:06.480
And and I think just reminders, you know, like hey guys, we're leaving in five minutes, hey guys, we're leaving in three minutes, hey guys, we're leaving in two minutes.
00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.360
I should be see I should be seeing shoes getting putting on right now.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.360
So I think time is a really big one.
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:17.839
They can get counselors, I think incompetence, and I know in the opening we talked a little bit about weaponized incompetence.
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:25.360
I think as you're getting as you're getting into that summer, everything feels like weaponized incompetence, the kid who just doesn't know how to use the broom, right?
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.519
They're just kind of it looks like they're messing up on purpose, so somebody will just handle it for them.
00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:38.079
I think those things can get really stressful, but a lot of times, like we just have to accept that a camper might not know something, and that camp is learning.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.160
So we're gonna have to help develop those skills.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:49.040
And I'm gonna talk about that in a in a later part of the show, but I want you to know that like incompetence is it's not on the fault of the camper yet.
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.240
And and that's really tough to remember in your patience game.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.279
I think also disinterest or not cooperating, right?
00:07:55.519 --> 00:08:04.480
A lot of the times we may see this because a camper might not be into the sport that you're gonna be playing, or they might not be into crafts, or they might not want to write music or whatever the activity is, right?
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:14.879
There's just a disinterest in what the activities and trying to find other ways to get involved is really challenging as a counselor sometimes because it may not feel like there's a lot of categories to get into.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:20.639
And and sometimes there's like you really stretch yourself thin for creativity of what can be getting done during this time.
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:30.079
But I've literally been in crafts and I've had campers who want nothing to do with the crafts, but I entertain them by saying, Hey, do you want to help organize the craft shelves?
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:42.720
And they just go ham, like some there, they just go folk, they focus in, and that's what they want to do for an hour instead of you know making a craft that means nothing to them, and they can provide something else in another way.
00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:51.759
So I think disinterest or not cooperating sometimes is a lack of purpose and helping equip the camper with something to do during that time, and also like understanding like not everyone wants to do everything every day.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:09:04.960
Like that kid who plays soccer all the time may not want to play soccer when the rest of the cabinet is playing soccer because they know that their skill level is different and it's not going to be as entertaining or as fun for them, and they just would rather like sit out.
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:17.440
I've a hundred percent seen that, and it's unfortunate because you were like, Oh, we kind of planned this activity for you, the kid who likes soccer, and now you don't want to play, like what like oh the whole point of us coming down here.
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:23.919
And then the best part is as a counselor, know that that kid will complain later that you guys don't play enough soccer on camp.
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:33.919
Um and then I think another one, another big big trigger for what makes a counselor sometimes unhappy is just a camper who might really struggle with their social skills.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:37.600
Like, you know, an eight-year-old kid, a 13-year-old kid, it doesn't matter.
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.080
They're still learning how to socialize properly.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:44.639
And they might say things, do things that make others uncomfortable.
00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:49.519
They might might want to disassociate with the cabin a little bit and just be like, I don't want to be a part of this, right?
00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:52.639
And they keep themselves, you know, arm's length away.
00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:58.639
Or they might be that really big personality in the cabin that doesn't know how to own it down for a little bit.
00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:06.639
And you know, you get back to the cabin at the end of a long day, and they're they still got that big personality, and you gotta look at them and be like, hey, like let's take it down a notch.
00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:12.720
A lot of times you'll see that is like we like that counselor aide, that camper who like always wants to be by your side.
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:17.600
They see you as a hero, and they're just constantly asking questions and how can they can help and what can they do?
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:20.559
And you know, what's next, what's next, and they're they're asking a thousand questions.
00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:25.840
You're like, hey, like let's let's like just work on how like what the mood is right now.
00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:49.200
And the mood is like, please, like, let's just calm down a little bit at the end of the day here, or it might be the vice versa, and just you know, it's a camper who you know isn't gonna buy into those big moments, and you gotta, you know, I don't want to say you're carrying them along with you, but you're definitely guiding them with the group so the rest of the group can still have that shared experience of whatever this epic thing is happening, and they and they get to also be there and a part of it.
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:54.799
So um those are some triggering things I think that a lot of times counselors get hit by.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:11:02.799
But Matt, what are some things that for you in the past have seen your patients tested or you've seen staff get tested in?
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:05.519
Yeah, it's a good list, Oliver.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:07.519
I I think it's funny.
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.120
I I what I want to kind of break down a little bit too is about where these frustrations come from.
00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:21.840
And the only reason I'm able to talk about the kind of the meta, like where these frustrations come from, is because I'm not frustrated right now in the moment, right?
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:27.759
You you don't when when a camper is like really grinding your gears, you're not like, oh, I wonder where this frustration is coming from.
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:35.200
So let's let's take a reflective moment now when we're not in the middle of getting a camper out the door because flag pulls in five minutes.
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:37.519
Like it's too hard to do that.
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:51.519
But I think it's it's important though to understand kind of your personal biases where where these frustrations come from and where it might be a cultural thing for your camp, because we have more control over our personal ones than our camp culture.
00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.000
So let's let's maybe talk about camp culture first.
00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:03.519
So, like when it comes to these behaviors, like the question that I have it's taken me a long time to to really understand is like, why does it matter?
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:10.000
You know, is we say like being being on time at camp, yes, it's important, but like how important is it really?
00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.679
And and is it important because the rules at camp are are there?
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.879
Like, does your director say that like being on time, being right on time to flagpole is really important?
00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:25.120
So that's a that's a pressure that you are facing as a as a counselor, and you might not have control over that.
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.519
So, and it and it's frustrating, you know.
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:32.480
It's frustrating to be that counselor whose kids are falling behind.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:40.480
But where it comes into the personal sense is, you know, do am I worried that my camper being late makes me look bad?
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.480
Why why am I frustrated about that?
00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.159
Because I I don't want to be the counselor on the spot because it makes me look bad.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:56.720
So I'm then taking my, you know, my feelings of not being a competent counselor and imparting them onto the camper by like yelling at them to hurry up, right?
00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.960
I'm I'm not saying it's it's wrong necessarily.
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.360
I'm just saying that that's where it might be coming from.
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.440
But it might be a pressure that's put on by the culture of your camp.
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:12.320
That, you know, if if the structure is very rigid at your camp, then the result is going to be that you have to rush kids along.
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:18.559
And that goes against where kids naturally are like psychologically, especially as they become a teenager, right?
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:25.759
They they don't that they want to sleep more, they they don't have as much respect or care for the rigidity of a schedule.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.519
It doesn't matter to them as much.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:37.120
And and I think also, you know, looking from a personal standpoint, like what are what are your triggers based on how you were raised or how you were a camper?
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:52.480
So like I know for me, something that I especially really care about is when I see a camper's behavior as affecting the camp experience for other campers, like when it when it really like a cabin is not gelling and not meshing together.
00:13:52.639 --> 00:14:00.960
I know that for me, like camp for me was a place where like I really found good friends and I had really great cabins.
00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:06.320
And I think my counselors did a great job like fostering that and creating those those environments.
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:10.879
So whenever I see a camper not doing that, it's a personal trigger for me.
00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:21.440
And I maybe blow that behavior up because I'm so worried about this camper affecting this idealized version of camp that I have for myself.
00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:25.120
And maybe I'm putting more emphasis on that than it needs to be.
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:38.639
And the last thing I'll say is I think for maybe, maybe this is just my experience, but you know, as a counselor, this is uh a pretty big step up when it comes to like leadership of other kids, right?
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:44.799
You you are in charge of or co-in charge of like eight-ish, eight or or more kids at once.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:49.919
And sometimes when we think about leadership, we think about conformity.
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:57.600
We think that that being a good leader means that you are directing these eight kids and they are listening to what you do, they are lining up how you say you're going to.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:07.840
And I call that like a conformity bias that these kids need to fit into these perfect little boxes, or I'm not being a good leader, or you know, they're being bad by default.
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:14.399
When like that would only apply if we were up like at a military camp, right?
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:23.120
And and I I think sometimes we put a bit too much emphasis on that conformity and not enough emphasis on, you know, that we're that we're having fun at camp.
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.360
And and yes, there there's structure to that fun.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:38.080
I think this is a bigger conversation, but like let's all just take a deep breath and remember that we're at camp and remember that, you know, some kids aren't gonna like eggs sometimes, and sometimes we're gonna we're gonna find ways to make it work.
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.279
And we can have boundaries.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:44.879
I don't think you need to go into your personal stash of cereal to to make this to get this camper to eat.
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:55.600
There are certain times where you're gonna pass up these behaviors to some of the other leadership staff at camp, and and and you are not also expected to have all the answers as a counselor.
00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:02.480
That's why you have unit heads, that's why you have directors who might have those have more strategies that they can give you.
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:09.679
So just take a deep breath, realize what you can and can't control, and pass it up when you need to.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.039
Yeah, I think Matt, that's such a great point about passing it up.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:25.200
I think most of the time as a counselor, you'll know probably within the first 24 hours a lot of the little things that a camper might have that you're gonna be working with for the rest of the session, right?
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.559
So, and and it's not saying that you should define your camper and who they are in 24 hours, right?
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:34.399
Like they're gonna show you who they are over the course of the entire session, they're there.
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:39.759
But I think within 24 hours, you start to see like you, you, you've done your first wake up, right?
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.679
Like you've done your first first set of three meals at that point.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.200
Like you've you've gone through a full day of activities for the first time.
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.000
You've seen how they've started to socialize with their group.
00:16:50.159 --> 00:17:04.880
So you can start to go to that leadership staff member at the end of day one, once the kids are kind of getting tucked in and going to bed, or maybe morning of day two, and just say, Hey, I've got this one camper in my cabin who I've just noticed lags behind a lot.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.039
Like they really do struggle to keep up with the group.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:14.640
Or they openly said in the first night of cabin chats that their parents sent them here and they don't want to be here.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.519
That and oh yeah, right.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:27.440
And and I've legitimately had counselors who come up to me in the morning of day two and and said that, and that their camper said, I am not going to have fun this week and will do my best to not have fun.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:36.640
And instantly you see that you have a wall that you have to you have to get over before you can really start to connect with that camper because they're putting it up because they didn't want to be there in the first place.
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:42.240
And and I think it starts to become really important when you go to have that conversation with your director about these types of things.
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.079
Is this a send home, right?
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:57.839
Is this camper somebody who is doing behaviors that are intentional to you know get themselves out of camp or they don't understand that their behaviors are wrong and therefore like they're continuously doing them?
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:02.319
Are they that camper who is on the precipice, right?
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:09.680
They're on the ledge of doing something that you know is a send home and you think they need to go home before that thing happens.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:17.200
Or is this just a collective of behaviors of trying to get this camper on board with what is going on in camp, right?
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:30.640
Of what our culture is within our world and and hopefully getting them to be a part of it in a way that is both conducive for the camp environment, but also beneficial for that camper and their development.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:35.680
So let's talk a little bit about the send home versus an annoyance, right?
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:42.400
And to get off the bat, you don't have to like all your kids in your cabin, right?
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:43.440
It's a hot take.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.559
Hot take, Oliver.
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.279
It's I don't I I think it's a pretty cold one if you've been a counselor before.
00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:57.519
Man, you look at those eight kids in your cabin or 12 kids in your cabin, you can very easily just go, not my cup of tea, right?
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:58.720
And I'm a big tea fan.
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:04.880
So but it it doesn't mean that you can't foster a connection with these kids, right?
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:11.920
I always I always go back to the fact of you know, you can find some form of connection with anyone, right?
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:18.000
Like it doesn't have to be a strong one, and especially it can't, like sometimes even the smallest connections can have a huge meaning to a camper.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:30.960
I always remember back to my first summer as a camper, I found out that one of my campers really enjoyed Magic the Gathering, and I had played as a younger child, but I hadn't seen a magic card in probably a decade at that point.
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:42.000
And I like made the intention of making sure I got my magic cards from home that were hidden away in some bin and brought them out to camp and was like, Hey, do you want to play some magic with me?
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.960
And and that started getting this camper back into the group, right?
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:56.480
Like a counselor accepted them, like had something in common with them, started playing with them, and then all of a sudden, some other campers in the cabin were like, Oh, I have magic cards too, right?
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:06.640
Like we can play, or I used to play, or or there was an understanding, and all of a sudden you start to foster a connection, even if you have a little bit in common, a little bit in common that you might not know about yet.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.720
That's a really important part as a as a counselor.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.880
It also helps you not be annoyed with that kid, right?
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:22.000
If you have a connection with someone, right, you have a reason to care about them, you have a reason to be invested in them, you're you're buying into their development as well.
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:32.559
So I really, really encourage a strong tool for every counselor to have is find a way to connect with your campers, not just like, oh, we have something in common, but we can do something together, right?
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.240
We can talk about books that we read, we can talk about sports, right?
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.680
Whatever it might be, what's the thing that gets the two of you connected?
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:50.799
And from there, you can start to find a way to adapt programs to to make sure that the two of you are two of you are gonna get connected, but also that they're gonna get connected to whatever activities you're doing.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:58.640
That they know that when they're gonna go to soccer, they're gonna go to basketball, they're gonna go to arts and crafts, that you're gonna adapt the program to make sure that it's comfortable for them.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.200
And all of a sudden they're not dragging their feet to go to those areas.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:07.599
They know that they can trust that their counselor is gonna take care of them in those areas and be like, oh, I have an I don't worry, I have an option for you.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.400
I have something that you're gonna enjoy when we get there as well.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:21.119
And the reason why this is so important is it's different from it's different from when you go to send home a camper because like Matt said earlier, there's policies, there's procedures.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.839
That's how that's like how the camp director gets involved.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:39.039
And generally speaking, a camper is not gonna get home, get sent home unless they are doing something dangerous, there's a safety concern there or a health concern, or they're negatively affecting others' experience in such a way that it it's in a quite traumatic fashion, right?
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:45.359
And sometimes, like for me as a camp director, I'm looking to see if that is a quite intentional decision that they're making, right?
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:54.880
They are intentionally trying to be mean or cruel or hurtful or ruin the experience of others, or it's to such a degree that they are oblivious to the fact that they're doing so.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.759
So understand like the send home of a camper is not the ultimate goal.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:09.759
And when you're in that area of frustration and anger and your your patience is just completely tested and you feel like the only option is to send that kid home, right?
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.079
It's not right.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:20.160
Like there are other ways to work with this and understand that there are policies in place to make sure that those kids get the opportunity to be at camp and have a full experience.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:25.279
It's not just because we've lost our patience with them, we can't find a way to deal with them anymore.
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.720
They're going home for much more different, much more specific reasons.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:32.559
And that's kind of the difference between just a send home and an annoyance, right?
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.240
And how you kind of deal with that annoyance.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.680
So, Matt, what what else are you looking for for this for this difference?
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.039
Well, I I think I think you said it, Oliver.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.519
It's the the going home is actually should be a pretty easy decision from a director's standpoint.
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:53.680
But I, you know, we can't speak for every camp director and every every culture that they have, and and they have their own procedure.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:23:02.000
Like maybe the home gets called, and directors ask families what strategies they use at home, and then they might give you those strategies.
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:07.440
So, like there's a whole like you know, things that are happening in the background that you might not be able to control.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:09.599
But I wanted to, I can't help myself all over.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.039
I have to I have to go practical here.
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:16.720
I have to talk about like what it looks like for you to actually kind of like ask for help.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:25.920
Because again, as we're doing this episode, I I'm just reminding myself that we don't always have the tools that comes with years and years of working with kids.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.640
So I want to give a bit of a framework of like what does it look like to ask for help?
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:43.359
Because what I see from really great staff members is are the ones that are doing a lot to try within the without making like big structural trying to trying to think about big structural changes.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:52.720
Like a big structural change is sending a kid home or switching groups, or like those kinds of things that like really take a lot of work from the camp background.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.720
Like it takes a lot of work to switch a kid from a cabin to a cabin or to send a kid home.
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:01.519
And I those are more like of the last resorts that we want to take.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:10.880
So thinking for for yourself, like what are the things that I can do that are within the structure without like disrupting the big structural changes at camp?
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.839
And go to our other episodes for those specific ones.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:17.759
But when it comes to asking help, I've said this on the podcast before.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:23.519
When a staff member asks me for help, the first question I always ask is, like, okay, what have you tried already?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:24.079
Right.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:31.279
And it if a staff member comes to me and they haven't tried anything yet, I'm gonna say, like, okay, you like what do you think the first steps are?
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.759
So really trying to empower yourself.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:44.640
And I think this looks good on you as a staff member, is to actually try some specific strategies, like incentivizing, making things fun, like just some basic things that I think you could intuit.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:54.799
And then so when you go to your your the person who's supporting you, your your supervisor or whatever you want to call it, give them what you've tried already, and that's a good starting point.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:59.920
The second is to be specific about what is the behavior that you're noticing.
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:07.200
Like if somebody comes to me and just says, Well, this kid is annoying, like that's not showing that you're really thinking deeply about it.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.880
It's showing you that you're very frustrated.
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.599
I I hear you, but like what are they specifically doing?
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:24.240
Because if you don't give the specifics, then how can you expect your leadership person who's not in the cabin there with you to like understand actually what's going on and give you some really good advice?
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:31.920
And and I think also sometimes I've had staff members come to me and say, Well, like, can you just come and and be there?
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.240
And you know, I I hear that and I always ask why.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.759
You know, what what would it how would it be helpful for me to be there?
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:46.480
Do you just want me because of my perceived authority to help use my authority to get this kid to conform?
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.400
Because that's that's not really.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:59.119
I mean, my philosophy on a leadership is not about us using our power, it's about helping campers have a great experience and and talking with this kid about why they're not having this great experience.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:11.599
We try to move, like I try to be used as a director only when I'm like really, really needed in a situation because there's already the campers view me as a threat as a director.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.559
So, you know, what what can we do before we get to those to those stages?
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:30.240
And it might be just like getting another staff member who the camper doesn't recognize as an authority figure just to like be there for the side or on the side of a session to kind of reality check these observations that I'm I'm seeing.
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:41.680
Because there's so many steps that we can take before we get into the like, do we even need to like, you know, does a camper need a quote like time out or or what kind of like discipline we need to enact?
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.000
So I think that's one thing.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:52.640
And I think that sometimes counselors don't see the value of having honest conversations with kids.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:10.480
And and like some of the most powerful conversations I've had with campers is when when you do have a moment to like chat with campers, maybe it's in like the free time between you know an activity and a meal, saying, you, you know, hey, I I'm noticing that it seems like you're not having a really good time.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.319
Can can you tell me tell me more?
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:13.519
Like what's going on here?
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:19.759
I noticed that, you know, I noticed that we're it's it's a real struggle to get you up in the morning and to flagpole.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:25.680
It feels like you and I are always like clashing on this, and that it doesn't, it doesn't feel great for me, and I'm sure it doesn't feel great for you.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.079
Can you just like tell me more about that?
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.519
And you never know like when a camper is going to open up and tell you something that you might not realize.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.400
At the end of the day, it might be that you just don't have enough data about this problem.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.039
And there might be, again, already talked about connections, there might be some points that you can connect with.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:50.799
And the kid says, like, man, I'm really not getting enough sleep, and I'm so tired in the mornings, and be like, okay, so like let's let's strategize.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:51.440
What can we do?
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:56.640
Maybe do you want to like chill for evening program rather than like going and running around?
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.200
And maybe like, can can we build a nap time in?
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:09.119
Like, again, we're strategizing, and if we can strategize alongside campers too, I think that's really powerful because it helps them be a part of the decision-making process.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:17.200
You know, are you gonna get a kid that says, like, I don't want to be here, I'm gonna make your life L for the next little bit?
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:22.160
It could happen, but more like that's happened to me like twice.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.359
I think it's happened to like staff that I've worked with like twice.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:31.680
And then that's where you're using directors to step in to call families and and ask about like, you know, what are we doing here?
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:32.799
Can we strategize?
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:38.559
But from a counselor perspective, I think there's some there's some practical steps there you can take before it gets to that point.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:44.319
For over a hundred years, Summer Camp has been an integral part of the AM Skyer world.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:53.599
Today, AM Skyer is a strategic partner for summer camps across the country, building personal relationships and providing valuable resources to their clients and friends.
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.839
Every day, AM Skyer is proud to support camps and help make them safer.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:04.000
AM Skyer was founded by Abe Skyer in 1920 and is now in the third generation of Skyer family leadership.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:09.599
Henry, Jeffrey, Amy, and the experienced AM Skyer staff eat, sleep, and breathe summer camps.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:17.759
In addition to fostering partnerships with camps that last for decades, give AM Skyer the opportunity to find solutions for your most challenging insurance needs.
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:19.200
They go above and beyond.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.839
Learn more at amskier.com.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:29.519
I think you you hit a couple points that I really want to emphasize is one, you're working alongside with that camper, right?
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:38.160
A lot of times where there's conflict between you and another camper is because you're trying to set this precedent of this is how it has to be.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:39.599
Like we have to be here on time.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.680
And if you're not on time, I'm getting upset.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.079
And all of a sudden you guys are just clashing a lot.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:56.720
Where, like Matt has definitely emphasized that if you guys are working in parallel and in tandem to try and get to it, you're connecting with that camper and you're finding the grounds for them to be able to accomplish these tasks, they're much, much more likely to work with you.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:01.519
Not only that, but like respect is such an important thing for your camper to have for you.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:06.559
And if you're gonna put up this wall and say, No, this is the way it has to be, I'm not gonna work with you.
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:15.920
It's really tough for that camper to respect you as an individual, which is why, like, when your camp director comes in, they respect that camp director on the fact that they are the director, right?
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:17.519
So, like they have to listen.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.359
There are rules, there are consequences that they're not gonna listen to that person.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:29.680
Whereas you as a counselor, like respect is such an important part for that relationship between you and your camper that you need to be working with them and finding a way.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:42.160
And you'll find that when a counselor, sorry, when a director comes in to try and handle these situations, I very much, and I can I and I don't want to speak for all directors, but I think most of us think this way is I'm coming in to figure out how I can work with that camper right off the bat.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.119
Like, what can what can we do to help this work for you?
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.720
If you as a counselor are taking that strategy, it really, really does help.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:55.440
There is one thing about syndromes that I didn't talk about, and we're talking a little bit about incompetence and and struggling with campers trying to get things done.
00:30:55.599 --> 00:31:08.880
There's one situation where I do say that this sometimes is a little bit more common where if a camper is not able to perform, and I just wanted to add it in here before we move to the next topic, and that is because a camper just isn't ready for camp yet.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.319
So a lot of times you'll see this with maybe a younger camper.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:16.799
You know, you have that like six, seven-year-old who's coming for overnight camp for their first time.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:21.599
They've never stayed a night and somewhere else, they're just consistently homesick, right?
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:47.440
They may not be fully potty trained, or this may be their first time away from home and they just aren't able to um control their body when they go to sleep at night and they're constantly wetting the bed or having other accidents, or that might be happening as they walk around camp because they've had the access to go to the bathroom at any time with their parents, or their parents are just really keen to it, and now they're stuck with a group, and it just it's a little bit longer sometimes between when I say I need to go to the bathroom to when they can get to the bathroom.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.640
Sometimes it might be things like they maybe don't understand full commands or anything, or like what's going on.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:58.880
They just there's a disconnect because they haven't worked with somebody other than their parents, which is coming a little bit more common today.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:07.039
It's a topic for another podcast that I know Matt and I are planning, but they're they're maybe just not ready for camp.
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:13.279
And that's an understandable thing, but that they're not ready for camp doesn't come just because you start to notice these little things.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:20.880
It does take time to communicate with your director and get those things and then talking to the parents and be like, hey, we just want to make sure that we're covering all our bases here.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:29.839
And there's some things campers need to be able to do before coming to camp, and we just notice that your son or daughter is really struggling and we're working with them on it.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:38.480
But at a certain point, like we're we're only gonna expect our counselors to um, you know, clean so many sets of sheets every single morning.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:51.599
Like we are we're only gonna expect our counselors to handle so many issues of a camper refusing to move because they're homesick and they're crying on a rock and they're not willing to like move to the next activity, and and now it's holding up a counselor or two to help handle the situation.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:03.759
So just know like there are some categories where like a camper may not be ready for camp or camp might not be the best fit that's a send home, but it's a it's a it is a very different situation than what Matt and I have been talking about, where it's an annoyance.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:17.680
It's it's more of you, and you and I think your feelings change as a counselor too, where like instead of annoyance, it's almost as though you like I don't want to say pity, but you feel bad that this camper isn't able to continue with the group.
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:22.559
Like you just see that they're struggling, they're trying, or like they're just not able to.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:29.519
And there's like I said, there's a very different feeling you as a camp director have, or you as a camp counselor or as a camp director feel in this situation.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.079
You know it.
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:36.640
It's a gut feeling of just like, man, like this kid could be here next year, and they'd have a great time.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:48.240
But like they they're they're 12 years old and they still have velcro shoes because they haven't figured out how to tie them yet, and they're there's something else going on that needs to be addressed with these parents, so this kid is ready for camp.
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:53.279
And that is a conversation with the directors, that is a conversation with the parents of the child, right?
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.519
And it you just need to make sure you're communicating those things.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:57.279
It's a it's definitely different.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:07.039
Yeah, I I want to I want to just like kind of plus one and push back a little bit on that too, because like again, you as a counselor don't have the decision making around that.
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:14.159
And I I don't think it's actually so important that you for you as a counselor to even decide if this kid is ready for camp or not.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:18.400
Like, I think that's a a very broad like whether a camper is ready or not.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.320
Like you said, Oliver, it's it's a different podcast.
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:34.800
But I I also think that like I want you as a counselor to and maybe this will translate transition us into our last topic, but like I want to empower you as a counselor to like think about what you can do to help these campers while they're at camp.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.599
They're they're here, they're not going home yet.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.000
You don't have control over whether they're going home.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:47.199
And what an opportunity if if if it's an overnight setting, if it's an especially if it's an extended camp setting, like a two-week session.
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.440
Man, what an opportunity to give campers some of these skills.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.159
Like, let's let's talk about wetting the bed.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:35:02.079
Man, if if this kid is having issues with with wetting the bed or wetting themselves, how can what can you do as a counselor to make some changes?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:07.039
And and like talk to again, go to your leadership team if you feel like you don't have the strategies.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:08.800
Be specific about what you're seeing.
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:10.719
This camper is wetting the bed every night.
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:23.360
This kid is not able to make it to the bathroom when they said and if you have good leadership at your camp, they might give you strategies like okay, no water after snack time, right?
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.880
Or after after evening program.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.280
Like you get a small drink of water and that's it.
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.840
You know, bathroom breaks in the middle of your session.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.920
Talk to the program staff who are leading your sessions and say, we need to build in a bathroom break halfway through this session.
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:46.000
Like there are strategies that you can try that you can accelerate a camper's like readiness for camp even within a one-week session, right?
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:49.440
So, so please don't just take the strategy.
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:54.719
Like what we what we don't want coming for this episode is for you to be like, la, this camper can't be at camp.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.719
Like if for whatever reason, whether whether they're like, quote, ready for camp or not.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.480
I think you should be empowered to try something and to do something.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:17.679
Like, that's what makes a first class counselor in my mindset, is somebody that doesn't approach this from uh like you know it's it's okay to have that feeling once to say, like, okay, that this man, it would be really it would be a lot easier if this kid wasn't here.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.639
But the first class counselor is somebody who like digs in and starts to try some things.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:31.840
And to be clear, these strategies are gonna be what your camp director is coming to you with when you say, like, hey, these are things I'm struggling with.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:33.840
What are some strategies to handle with?
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:41.360
The camp director is gonna be the one who goes, Okay, we're doing all these strategies, there's still a struggle here.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.559
I'm talking to the parents and we're figuring it out.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.480
I think the reason why I bring it up is because there's a different level of care.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:56.320
I think instead of maybe and it's an annoyance, it's a it's you question yourself as a counselor whether or not you can support this camper, right?
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.400
Or you you you might not be there yet.
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:04.320
Or but it it's a it is a very different situation, is what I want to emphasize.
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:10.880
And that like it is okay to understand that sometimes those those things do happen.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:16.639
Like a camper might go home because you know the parents just signed him up a little bit too early for camp.
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:20.079
And that does not mean you are giving up here.
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:28.800
And I think Matt said it's very good that we're transitioning to our last topic here because the the whole point of this podcast is that you are not giving up as a counselor, right?
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:40.400
Like you, there is a reason why camp exists, there's a reason why we're pushing through these difficult situations of us being annoyed and having to deal with some things that just make us frustrated.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:46.239
Because at the end of the day, there's a payout that camp provides that we want to make sure that our campers are getting.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:58.000
And for me, when we're talking about why it's important for these campers to get it, get through camp if they might be struggling or were struggling with their behavior, is because campers are learning behavior, right?
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.480
And and learning behavior takes time, right?
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:06.800
There is a reason why we are not socially fully developed ever in our lives, right?
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:13.280
Like I even at my age, I'm wondering about what my behaviors are doing to the people around me.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:18.639
So am I able to be out in public and and and feel like a normal person?
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:20.320
Yeah, pretty much all the time.
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.800
But do I not live with some self-conscious stuff?
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:23.519
Yeah.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:35.760
The thing you have to think about is that self-conscious stuff is because I've learned some socially acceptable behaviors that get me through the world because I went through these things as a kid, right?
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:46.320
I I had experiences that led me through that may have been difficult or great, and I remember them and I inst and they're instilled, they become regular behaviors for me, but it takes time.
00:38:46.400 --> 00:39:01.840
And when you're working with a kid who's either five or even 16, right, they're still very, very much learning the social dynamic of being around other people, and and that coexistence that is given to us in camp is not common in other places.
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:11.519
Like you are in a cabin with strangers, you are eating breakfast, lunch, dinner with strangers, you are doing activities with people you've never met before.
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:20.639
You are being watched over by a counselor who you do not know, and they are an authority figure that is on top of you 24-7, but they're also like not much older than you.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:24.400
So, like, why does this horse get to watch over us as dogs?
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:26.400
Great John Maloney quote right there.
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:32.320
But that's important to understand that that coexistence in the camp world is also a challenge, right?
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.199
It'd be a challenge on an adult, right, to be able to spend a week with a bunch of strangers in a cabin.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:42.159
So, why is it not an acceptable understanding that it's a challenge for a kid?
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:47.920
And I think another thing too is campers, especially when they're young, right?
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:54.960
They're young, they're they're learning, they're getting developed, they are all at different paces and different learning in their lives, right?
00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.400
Parents prioritize different things, communities prioritize different things.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.280
Kids who come from different places are gonna come from a different walk of life and are gonna be more developed in some areas than others.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:11.199
Some their community might be education is extremely important.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.360
We're gonna be really focused on math, science, history.
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:17.440
You are going to be able to be a straight A student, and that is their focus.
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.840
But they might not have the practical skills of this is how we sweep a room, right?
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:33.679
And then on the flip side, you might have somebody who is much more like home centric and you know, keeping a clean home or like knowing how to cook at the age of like eight, right?
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.320
These are things that they might have learned in their home.
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:41.440
These skill sets, these learning, they might have a highly social atmosphere in their home life.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:47.199
Another family might have a much more closed and more centralized, like this is our tight-knit family.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:51.360
So these things all lead to different development levels in our campers.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:55.840
And it's really important to understand that when you put all these in a cabin together, right?
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:58.639
You're gonna see kids who can tie their shoes, kids who can't.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:04.320
But the kids who can't tie their shoes can also, I don't know, run 15 miles.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.280
And you're just like, wait, hold on a second, how'd you even tie your shoes to run that?
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:11.199
And they're like, Oh, my mom ties my shoes, and then she just says, Go, right.
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:12.719
Like, who knows?
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.719
But these kids are gonna come from different walks of life.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:20.000
And I think a really cool thing as a counselor is that means that every kid has something to offer the cabin, right?
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:26.000
One kid falls short in one is falling short in one area, another kid might be in an area where they can assist that kid.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:42:01.039
And an example that I've always like kind of laughed about, but has I give to ex as an example to parents when they come like on a tour and I go, one of the beautiful things about a camp is if you have a bunch of nine-year-olds who all go to the bathroom at the end of the day to like clean up and end their day like for showers and stuff, the kid who doesn't brush their teeth, like the mom who really struggles to get their kid to brush their teeth at night, all of a sudden is are surrounded by a bunch of nine-year-olds who may have already met that expectation, and they get into the bathroom and they all brush their teeth, no problem because that's what they know.
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:08.159
And then all of a sudden, this nine-year-old starts to realize oh, oh, oh, oh, like everybody else my age does that.
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.159
I need to be able to brush my teeth too.
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:14.800
And when that kid leaves camp, they now are brushing their teeth every day.
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:24.800
It's such a small little victory that might be there for that mom and that family and that child to like find like get to there, and that it's it's mildly peer pressure, right?
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:39.840
Like whatever, but it is helping develop those skills that we as a community really, really need because it does create some form of like mild community conformity that we all know, yeah, by nine years old, we should be able to brush our teeth, right?
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:53.760
You know, we we really have to emphasize that that's an importance that camp gives us of that peer-to-peer, but also this like mildly older peer of a counselor can give of like, hey, I just lived through that experience and now I can share it with you.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:59.199
And still having a camp director who's like, like, hey, when you get older, these are gonna be expectations of what your behavior is.
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:10.159
And and a lot of camp is that very formative place for kids, and that's why camp is so so important for us at the end of the day, is it's going back to what I said at the beginning.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.320
This is camp is learning, right?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:20.320
And it's it's that social learning that comes from every single day of being on camp that really helps that kid figure out who they're gonna be.
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.840
And I think Matt has a really great point that he's gonna make using that line too.
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.559
So, Matt, what why is camp so important when when we're so annoyed and we don't have the patience?
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.119
What makes it so so important?
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:46.239
I said this on the podcast before, and and you know, about my personal camp experience of why camp was so important to me was becamp because camp in some of the modern like research, they're they're calling camp a third space.
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:51.599
So, you know, in in what for adults, it's like your home, your work, and your third space, something else.
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:55.840
But for kids, it's it's their home, their school, and something else.
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.679
So camp being this like place that is a way.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:08.239
From the expectations that kids might have with their families, away from the expectations they might have with their peer group that they see every day at school.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:19.280
And it's a camp can be a place where they get to be the person that they might want to be when they're not facing the pressures of the people that they see every single day, right?
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:22.400
They get to be what some might call their authentic selves.
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:32.559
And I wanna try not to age myself too much here, but I am gonna drop a little bit of parenting advice that I heard that I think makes a lot of sense in this context.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:40.000
And they say the worst time to take your kid to a grocery store is right after daycare or school.
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:44.800
Because when they're at school or they're at daycare, they're doing what's called masking.
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:51.119
They're falling into like the conformity of the rules and the structure that the place where they are has been.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:56.320
So, like at daycare and at school, conformity is is kind of valued.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.559
You listen to the teacher, you you, you know, you line up when teachers say to line up.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:04.639
That that is kind of the very average structure of most schools.
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:13.199
I'm not talking about like the Montessori schools or some of those, like the free play nature schools, which I love, but you know, that's where you kids are usually coming from.
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:23.039
And when they're in the car with you on the way home, they are like they are rebelling against that structure that they had at daycare.
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:24.719
So they might be a little more sensitive.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:28.400
They might just like need a snack and time to chill.
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:45.840
And I think when you think about that from the the camp perspective, is these kids have come from, you know, if they're coming back to camp from like 11 months and three weeks of masking, of having to put themselves in these boxes that their friend group has made for them.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:54.719
This box of like being a nerd or you know, not being like being like classified as the sporty, quiet person or this thing.
00:45:54.880 --> 00:46:01.599
So I can't, they they're coming and they're pushing these boundaries, they're maybe pushing against what they've been forced to be.
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:07.519
And sometimes that can be a really beautiful thing where kids get to discover that part of themselves.
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:29.440
And I think that that we as counselors, if we can appreciate that this kid is like trying on new identities or trying on, you know, different personalities, I think, or just like like rebelling against what they've been forced to be in in the non-camp world, then I think we can have a little bit of empathy for that.
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:37.920
And then it all comes back to like my behavioral philosophy, not mine, but like the one that I I subscribe to is that all behavior is communication.
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:43.920
When when it when a kid is acting a certain way, they're communicating about what they need in that moment.
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:50.320
They're just they just don't necessarily have the skills to communicate that in the most like appropriate way or way that we understand.
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:58.239
Sometimes they're communicating it from a sense of overwhelm or from you know acting out or you know, fight, flight, or freeze, those types of things.
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:22.000
So if we can go to that level of what does this camper need and and who are they trying to be, who are they expressing themselves as, then I think we can approach this with understanding that we have a real opportunity for the short time that they're at camp to allow them to discover the part about themselves that they might want to change into when they have to go back to the non-camp world.
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:23.360
That was a great show.
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.719
I think we talked a lot about about like that stress and empathizing.
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:31.679
And I think we also talked about some ways to handle that stress and and why that stress might exist.
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:36.320
But let's finish our show with our eggle, our ever growing, ever learning.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:40.559
It's a trick, a tip, a game, or a song for counselors to use to become better every day.
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:43.360
And Matt, I'll let you kick this one off.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.400
Mine is very simple, and I may have done it before, but I don't care because it's so important.
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:56.639
Find a water bottle that you love drinking from and find it now before camp starts, and buy two of them if they're not super expensive.
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.840
I don't think you need to get like the swell or the I don't know.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.360
Until we get a brand partnership, Oliver, with a water bottle type.
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:04.639
I don't care which one you buy.
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:10.960
It could be an Algene with like this the lid in like the sippy lid insert that you can put inside of it.
00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:14.800
Whatever that water bottle is, get it and start drinking out of it now.
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:17.599
I think we are always not hydrated enough.
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:20.559
And at camp, we are definitely never hydrated enough.
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.119
So find that water bottle that that you like.
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:36.639
Go go to like your whatever your outdoor store of choice is, uh, find a local one rather than one of the big brand name ones, and you know, talk to somebody and ask them about you know what what would a good water bottle would be for a camp counselor.
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:44.639
Don't just go on Amazon, just just go in and like talk to the sales associate at where where you're working, and and they'll you it'll be a good conversation.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:49.119
So find a water bottle, go out and do it in person, and that's that's my egg go.
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:50.159
No, it's a great one.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:51.599
Water bottles are so important.
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.480
And Matt has a great advice with buy two of them.
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:56.159
You might lose one during the summer.
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.360
And my my advice is like buy like get the cheap one.
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:04.400
Like, there's no reason for you to be why walking around with like a$50 hydro flask or something.
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:07.360
It's you especially because it's gonna be valuable.
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:12.400
You're gonna you lose it, and then all of a sudden for me, I have a game, I call it survival tag.
00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:26.000
You do it with flag football flags, so everyone gets to wear them, and then essentially you're just playing tag and everyone runs around wearing the flags, but you can increase your borders, you can go out into the woods to play, but it's nice because each of the football flags just represents a life.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:27.840
So once they get pulled, right?
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:32.719
Like you have people who like don't survive, and then it's whoever has a flag at the end of the game.
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:39.360
It's very, very simple, but it it adds an extra element to that tag game that is just a little bit more fun.
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.760
And we've done it from everything from jumping on our kangaroo jumper, like our jumping pad, to space out in the woods.
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:46.719
That's a lot of fun.
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:51.039
I've even played it on our like high ropes course, which is is just ridiculous.
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:57.360
But our high ropes course allows us to do that, so we can have some fun doing it, and it's really funny to watch them try and play it safely.
00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:06.559
We have a few more rules when we're up in the air, but but it's a great game, and and I suggest it's just and it's an added element you can put onto other games as well that can make it fun.
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:10.960
If you enjoyed today's show, we'd be so grateful if you left her as a review wherever you're listening to this podcast.
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:19.599
Your ratings reviews not only help us know what you like or didn't like about the show, but it also boosts our rankings and helps more people discover what we're pitching here.
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.159
And uh big thank you to our editor, Ryan.
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:27.519
Ryan, thanks for all your work to get these episodes out and and looking good and helping us sound good.
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.360
Thank you for all of your work there.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:35.039
And don't forget, if you are listening, you can check out our show notes from this episode at gocamp.pro slash FCC.
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:36.239
There's lots of great stuff there.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:40.960
You can check out the other GoCamp Pro podcasts at gocamp.pro slash podcast.
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:45.599
And there are seven podcasts that are going out on the camp on the camp feed.
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:51.039
And if you're a counselor saying, maybe I I want to know a little bit more about daycamp, go check out the daycamp pod.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:51:02.079
Our friends Andy, Sam, and Jordana are putting out some great episodes that are, you know, more geared towards the the directors and leaders of day camps, but it could be a good, you know, mindset shift.
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:04.480
Oliver and I usually come from the overnight background.
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.039
So hearing about some daycamp tips from those folks would be helpful for sure.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:12.000
Yeah, I know I go and listen to the shows all the time.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:16.400
So it's a great resource to have, and it's awesome that we have this great community of podcasting.
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:22.400
The GoCamp for the Go Camp Pro Podcast Network is a great resource for all learning.
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.440
And remember, at the end of the day, camp is camp and camp is all good.
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:27.039
Thanks for listening, friends.
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:37.840
First class counselors is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison, Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:39.920
Thanks for listening, friends.
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:45.360
Hey Camp Ros, we love that our industry is built on sharing.
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:56.320
In order to foster that spirit, we hope that whenever you share an idea that you learn from the Camp Hacker Podcast, conference, summer camp professionals group, or wherever else, that you're quick to give credit where credit is due.
00:51:56.639 --> 00:52:01.280
That way, we can all encourage more camp pros to share the tips and tricks that will make camp better.