speaker-0: It has been the toughest time I've seen across twenty-two years. I often describe it as a slow punch. It's like what's next? What's next? What's next? I remember twenty twelve so well. Everyone said to me in twenty twelve, Nadia, where are all the people with three years experience? And I know this is going to happen again.
speaker-1: Hello everyone, my name is Igor Tomic, and I'm CEO at Dash Devs. And today you're looking at a new episode of the Thindergarten podcast. Today with me, Nadia. And it's pretty special episode with me because we had a chance a while ago to talk with the Harrington star about the hiring, and we overlap on several exhibitions and ⁓ events. So for me, it's really, really big pleasure to introduce Nadia Edward Dash T. So hello Nadia, how are you today?
speaker-0: I'm really well. Thank you so much for inviting me onto this podcast. ⁓ it's ⁓ such a brilliant podcast and I love the conversations that you have, so I'm looking forward to the topics we're gonna cover today.
speaker-1: Once again, it's hot because the heat wave is reaching United Kingdom and all the areas of European Union. But I think the topic is even hotter. Harinstant Star is a recruiting agency and helping for the fintechs to find the talents. And the discussion that I would like to go today is the state of the market, of the labor market, how it's affecting finding the talents, what is the appetite from the companies for the talents, and how Everything what we see on the market is affecting it. So I would like maybe to jump with the your definition and your personal view. What is the state of the United Kingdom market for the fintech talent?
speaker-0: And do you know what? It's actually it's a simple question, but it is quite a complex answer right now in the marketplace. But I would like to say it is on the up. And it has been a real struggle for the past three and a half years for anyone looking to ⁓ find a new job within financial services and fintech. And let me just be really specific. ⁓ our our visibility, Harrington Star is a recruitment agency. Our visibility is crop across technology roles, sales roles, risk roles, all the way up to exec across all of FinTech, including payments, crypto, and some of the more traditional financial services companies. Our visibility is vast. We organize maybe a thousand interviews ⁓ every three months. So we have a lot of experience and we have a lot of visibility of what's actually happening out there. And I would say The past three and a half years, we have been in a difficult downturn for hiring. We've seen more redundancies than we've seen growth positions. When people are hiring, they're often hiring to replace or to reorganize how they're trying to work within their organization, rather than a new growth opportunity, a new forward thinking opportunity. And the reason why I say it's quite complex is because the Attitude across financial services and fintech especially has been very much about let's be efficient. And with efficiency comes the focus on being lean. And when you want to be lean, when you're looking at your talent, what are we actually talking about? We're talking about streamlining and therefore redundancies. And many companies have made redundancies in the aim to make their company lean. But actually, what's ended up happening is A lot of people are now taking on positions within a firm where they're taking on two or three roles, where there would have been two or three people. As I'm saying this, I'm sure anyone listening will relate to what I'm saying. Either have been made redundant, no colleagues who have been made redundant, or be in that position where they are looking after somebody else's role. Or what may have been pitched as a growth role. which could have been someone's entirely new position, or maybe it could have been their promotion, but hasn't been. And I think that's what makes it quite complex right now, because we have never been so focused on having to look at the bottom line within fintech. ⁓ and when you look at the bottom line, you look at the cost of the people within your business. But as I started this answer, I did say I do think we're on the up and I want us to hold on to that because it's been a really tough struggle. For anyone looking for work, for anyone looking to be promoted or given a pay rise. It has been the toughest time I've seen across 22 years. That is how it's been for the past three and a half. And actually, this year, slowly but surely, I am starting to see the tides turn. I'm seeing more vacancies. I'm seeing more people who I've been speaking to for months looking for work. I'm seeing them post on LinkedIn. New job, I've started here, I've started there, and that is wonderful to see and long may that last.
speaker-1: The reasons for improvements there are in the numbers. If we you read the latest report in the fintechs and the VCs, it seems that in 2026 there are about 20% more investment in the fintech. But what is interesting for me, like if we go a little bit into the history and you mentioned 22 years of the experience, we saw the corrections and areas or times similar to what is happening right now before, like in 2008. And What is the difference between two thousand eight and two thousand twenty six? How do you feel? How you can describe how it's different.
speaker-0: I think it's very different. ⁓ I think back in two thousand and eight we were all shocked, right? It was like one big event, right? We could understand almost like the human nature you could blame. That's the reason why this is happening to all of us, right? Whereas this time, it's been a slower decline and also there hasn't been any end in sight. So we've had a number of different things happen at the same time. So we had the pandemic. We had the post pandemic boom. We've then had an a huge element of this is a correction because actually after the pandemic, when there was the boom within FinTech, many companies said we overhired, we overgrew, we overinflated salaries, which is true. If anyone wants to think back to 2022 and the hiring there, we saw graduates with zero years of experience being placed 60, 70,000, 80,000 pounds on their basic salaries, right? Which I'd I you know I'd never, never seen, right? So there needed to be some sort of correction. But that would have accounted for some of this, not all of this. I think also alongside that, and we've spoken about this before, it was the valuation bubble bursting, where a lot of fintechs in 22, in 2023, you had lots of media reports about how much they were worth and the value of these fintechs. And then suddenly, and this is what I call about the bubble bursting, suddenly the media reports were coming out that wait a second, to be making that amount of profit, they are spending that amount plus more. So that's actually not a profit at all. Why are we talking in these in these terms that indicate positivity when actually it's a negative? And I think that's that's really come to fruition now. What is the actual benefit? What is the actual reason that we're we're putting these businesses together? Alongside that, and this all compounds everything I'm saying. Alongside that, we've had some really exciting developments with AI. But of course, ⁓ the media again, everything is being whipped up into a frenzy of fear that AI is gonna take over all your jobs. I think now we're starting to see a bit of a balance on that, and people are understanding it's about us using our skills with AI. It's not about repla replacing everybody. There was a wonderful ⁓ a wonderful bit in the media the other day about IKEA. And rather than ⁓ sacking thousands and thousands of people, they have retrained thousands and thousands of people and now they are they're up in their profits because of it. So we're starting to see more positive stories of this. But if you if you add all of these things up, they do compound. On top of that, we have faced so many geopolitical crises over the past few years. everybody is talking about a cost of living and how that has increased. ⁓ from oil prices to food prices to keeping warm. I know we shouldn't talk about keeping warm right now when we're hot, but keeping warm in the winter or keeping cool in the summer, all of this compounds. And I think that with that, it's very different to how it was in two thousand and eight. We knew that we were all hit, we knew we'd hit a financial crisis, and yes, things stopped and we all stopped together, but then we climbed out of it together. Whereas with this, I I often describe it as a slow punch. It's like, what's next? What's next? What's next? And and it's about sort of stepping around all of these problems, trying to work out how we solve these problems and how actually we still exist despite more problems coming our way.
speaker-1: If I may to kind of ⁓ draw the line, for me it feels two different situations. In two thousand eight, it was the stressful end, like we reached the peak and everyone know that it's it's an end. It doesn't work as it was, and then we spend a lot of times half a year, maybe a few years, adapting to the situation. But I feel the situation right now feels at least it's not like it is, but still feels like a never-ending stress, put in vice versa. So both in negative connotations. But I I think you're definitely right that no one knows where the bottom line is, where we will touch and we will get growing. So I think it puts a lot of stress on the candidates, on the market. And we don't feel that we understand how the market and the engineering or the development and digital products they will run from now on. Because the instruments and approaches that we had like a year ago even, ⁓ they're changing. And I here I I would like maybe to put another thought. I really liked the interview from Linus Torwold for AI conference, and he said that we never blame compilers for writing the code. And I think right now in this in this marketing threat we are assuming that actually AI is writing the code, although it's not it. Actually you need a team, actually you need someone with the approach, and that's why I'm calling a gentic approach. Like you need to tell what exactly you want. Own the results, be responsible that it will fix and will function the way that it is, because the LLMs they are still not capable to develop the business end to end. And instead of focusing on the specific hard skill, that is the requirement, but it still requires a lot of accountability for making sure that the final product or the business process will function as expected, because there is no LLM to take this accountability.
speaker-0: Exactly, like who's accountable, who is responsible, and then who's gonna create the next thing? And I think I think that is what we've got to always remember ⁓ in this and I think I think you're absolutely right by sharing that it's just two totally different situations, but also there is the benefit of hindsight. You know, if we talk in ten years' time about what happened, we'll know at that point, well, that was the the worst bit, and then we and we can you know we can talk differently about it. But at the moment, I think this is why the entire industry, any event that we've both been to, there'll always be a conversation about the future of work, what's it gonna look like? And it's all everybody's hypotheses around it all, which I really enjoy talking about, but actually what what what is work right now? How do we get the most out of it for our businesses, for the entire ecosystem? for all the people that are looking to build their careers here. And I think in everything that we've spoken about there, there is ⁓ there is a piece that is that is missing. And it is how we are all progressing despite all the challenges, how we are learning and how we learn faster. And you use the word agile, you know, making sure that agility, which is what FinTech was built on, the the ability to be agile and to question the status quo and say, surely we can do this better. And I would really like us to return to that. How do we do this better despite whatever new hurdles are going to come our way? And how do we do this better for all our people? Of course, I'm a recruiter, so I'm always going to think it starts with people. But I truly think is if as an industry we're thinking about the individuals in our businesses, how do we make sure that they're engaged? How do we support them when they're worried about everything that we've just discussed? How do we help them be the best that they can be? That in turn makes the team the best it can be, in turn makes the business, in turn supports the entire industry and the ecosystem and has huge ramifications. So I think you're absolutely right. It's very different to what it was in two thousand and eight. But the one thing that holds holds true is people every single time.
speaker-1: That's true because still people doing the things. So that that's true. Coming back to the companies, because we we discovered the stress that people are experiencing right now with the finding new places, ⁓ refining their positions, taking more accountability. But what about the the companies and the market state itself? Because a few years back, if you take a look with the start of full scale invasion of Russia, the market like ⁓ were really cautious with the investments, like no one knows what is happening, and then the the war with Iran started, which is brought price is really on top. So what do you think where we are right now with the companies? Is it the market of the companies? Do they feel confident in the future? Do they benefit from AI and stuff like that? What is your view?
speaker-0: Know whether we can say that anyone feels truly confident in the future unless they're betting on instability, right? But then haven't we always said this, right? About financial services, the winners are always the ones that that will celebrate when things go wrong, right? Because that that is life and there's going to be a lot of challenges. But I do think the shift that is worth talking about is ⁓ you've touched upon it there about the companies and like sort of what they're betting on, and right now. The companies, I think, are betting on the fact that there will always be somebody else to work within their business. This is from the the people point of view. And this I think is a dangerous place to be. So I have always championed the talents that are within our industry, like who those people are, the experience they bring, but also talented people from external to our industry and what perspectives they bring to it. And I think we are very, very powerful when we bring in different perspectives and experiences. And what has sadly happened, as companies have felt more secure in their ability to identify talent, they've forgotten this wonderful pool of knowledge that actually is in attracting new people to the space. And the reason why I talk about this is because if we roll back to 2022, when there you know the last sort of boom in hiring that we could all remember, if I had said to any hiring manager or any CEO, tomorrow ten percent of your staff are going to leave. They would have panicked and they would have said, What do I need to do to make them stay? How do I look after them? Do they need flexi time? Do I need to support? Do I need to make sure that everyone has a new desk at home to work from? I don't know if anyone remembers this, but there were even conversations around companies paying for people's electricity bills when they were working from home. I mean, right now, imagine having that conversation, right? This is this is the stark difference. So when we talk about the power the companies have, yes, of course, they are so worried about the future geopolitically, but what they're not necessarily worried enough about, which I would love them to be, is looking after their staff and valuing people being able to feel safe at work. Because ultimately, if I was to ask a CEO today 10% do you think 10% of your staff is going to leave tomorrow, they would not be that worried. They would either say, well Actually, we could do with being a bit more lean, or I know there's a thousand other people knocking at the door. And this is such short-sighted thinking because ultimately we have such amazing talents within our industry, experienced people, people bringing their perspective of the past two years. And that perspective of a shift or and it's been such a stark shift from many companies hiring to many companies reducing and and all the different ways of working that that entails, I think we have to really work hard. at ⁓ retaining that knowledge and making sure that as all the industries start to pick themselves up and hire again, that we're not losing those people.
speaker-1: That's ⁓ another takeaway which I think everyone who's listening should should write down. Because shifting from understanding how reality works might bring issues. Because if we assume that ⁓ LLMs will replace people and it not, what are the outcomes? Like who is going to educate juniors, who is going to drive the personal development plans for medial engineers? Or who will educate people against IML fraud detection and stuff like that? Certain points should be closed and might be closed well with the LLMs and AI, but it doesn't mean that we will need less people. Maybe we will be producing more in a more efficient way, more quality way. But that that's a potential issue, the risk that are those companies will be able to mitigate. Because if it's going to flip into the market of the ⁓ engineers or market of people. Then the companies will be in struggle because it's not so easy to stretch the dynamics. If you have 100 engineers and you have the job for 200s, it's going to be the bloodbath for hiring, for bonuses, for getting people getting the things done. Because why try hard? I can go to another place and make even more. So the results might be affected. So it's really good takeaway and thinking even right now when we feel that the market is different, it's just the market of the companies. So That's definitely well thought. And I would like to maybe go into the ghost jobs because that's something which is also connected with the companies. And while preparing, we we discussed this like at the ghost job. What what is it in UK market? How does it work?
speaker-0: ⁓ so we often call them silent searches as well, which I think people may may may call them either or. And essentially we're seeing a number of them where companies are looking to restructure ⁓ at the top. And when they're restructuring at the top, they will do something ⁓ more confidentially and they will come to a company like us and talk to us about it and we'll support them with it. That's one way of looking at ghost jobs or silent searches. The other way of looking at ghost jobs is when companies put out a couple of vacancies, they start the hire and then they don't follow up with the person whatsoever. And I think this is something that I wrote about in ⁓ one of my Forbes articles because I wanted to highlight that this is something that we've got to make sure that we're stopping doing because it is destroying the the names of companies, the brands of companies, because talent in the industry will remember how they're treated. And this is something that I am super, super passionate about. So let me just give a bit of context around this. I think ⁓ when we were hiring lots within the industry, everyone spoke about Glassdoor. Everyone spoke about how their company was perceived, what was the vibe in the market, if they'd made some big changes between their series A and series B, which of course you know companies will do, there were lots of questions like, you know, do do people have a good perception of us, Nadia? What do they think of us? I don't really get these questions anymore, right? But and this is what happens when we talk about the complacency around talent and the belief that so there will be another application behind this one. And I think what has happened with AI, with all the shifts that we're talking about, is there are less faces to recruitment. And what I mean by that is that anybody applying to jobs, well, how much work do you need to do until you actually speak to someone at the company? So All the automation that's happening in AI, if that automation doesn't include responding to candidates, going back to them, letting them know why they were a no or why they haven't had had any response yet, how are they supposed to feel and what they're supposed to think. Now, the example I've just given, imagine that with one person. Now imagine that one person having that a hundred times. Now imagine a hundred people having that a hundred times. Now let's have a think about how many people actually work within our industry right now who've been made redundant, who are doing these applications, who are being treated this way, and what industries they're going to move to with their transferable skills if we don't sort out how we're communicating with the people who are looking for work.
speaker-1: And coming from engineering ⁓ communities and being an engineer, I think it's a phenomenon that sometimes management is underestimating because ⁓ there are positions which are horizontal and they are not sitting just in one industry, like a fintech, because engineers in various, various different ⁓ industries like automotive, e com different, different stuff like healthcare. And being an engineer seen from inside, it feels really different because one way or another. You still have an ability to pull, hey, you know, someone who's working this company and how's there and that. So the community still has a really good vision what is going on. And people still get a feeling that certain jobs are not for finding the talents, but for maybe promoting the companies, stuff like that. So I I think it's really well put that companies are underestimating how the real things are working. Because ghosting, not providing the feedback. It's better not doing anything than doing the bad process because it brings more damage for the brand and for the company rather than just like not doing the things that you didn't have res resources.
speaker-0: One of the things that I was urging companies to do, and I still do this, is if they put an advert out for a particular role and look, they could receive four hundred ⁓ advert advert responses and not actually have the time or know even where to start to go through those, what would stop a business from putting a post out onto LinkedIn? ⁓ like or or onto any any of their platforms? And say thank you to all the hundreds of people that recently applied to this job. We had no idea we were going to receive five hundred plus responses. We are going to go through them, but please, if we don't come back to you by Friday the twenty-sixth, please can you acknowledge that that means that we are not taking your whatever, whatever they were to say. But do you know what that would do for people? It would allow them to move on. And I've spent twenty two years, as I've said, talking to people who are looking for work. And the worst thing for people is the not knowing. If they know that Friday the twenty-sixth has come and gone and therefore they can cross that application off their list and focus on one that might be a maybe and how to turn that to a yes, they can move on. But what has happened to all of these ⁓ applicants that are making application after application, being forced into basic AI tools for their application without any real assessment of who they are and what they can do, it's soul destroying for these people. And it's affecting people who've never ever in their lifetime of careers seen seen anything at this these sorts of volumes or been been up against as many people at this these sorts of volumes. So I think ⁓ we've got to remember the people within the process every single time. And I always say that. But especially when it comes to ⁓ advertising for roles, be super careful ⁓ and think Is this role definitely something that we want? Are these skills exactly what we need right now? Do we have the people power to actually perform all the CV reviewing? Do we have the people power to go through the interview processes? Do we know for sure exactly what we want our interview process to be? If so, why aren't you advertising that? So we expect to review all CVs by the 26th. So the next Tuesday we'll be conducting four interviews. By the Friday, the final interviews. Imagine if we all were communicating like that. I think it would reduce a lot of stress ⁓ by reducing the ambiguity.
speaker-1: Transparency is the key and it works both sides for the candidates and for the companies and especially when you are getting the first touches with the company. Like that's why marketing when they working with the customers, the the difference is i in the air. Like you're getting the transactional emails, you're getting a lot of a lot of communication could to keep you in a loop. And what I'm saying actually to my team that ⁓ companies sell in three times to the customers, to the existing team. but also to someone who is not working yet with the company. So that's the same. You need to treat the potential candidate, someone who is seeking the job, even if you don't have a big appetite. Like you post it, you are tracking what is on the market, you still need to treat them as a customers, but because that's how the company should work. Like
speaker-0: I completely agree with what you said there. And I think that what's happening right now is lots of companies are forgetting two of your three groups. They're forgetting that actually anyone that comes into contact with you and applies to you, you want them, you want them to wish that they were working for you. You want them to go and tell their friends, I had an amazing experience. Unfortunately, it wasn't a match, but it was an amazing experience. A hundred percent, but also that middle group that you mentioned, the people that currently work for you. And I think that this is a huge opportunity for all of the industry, especially right now, because we started this podcast saying that you know things were starting to improve, people are hiring again, which means there's going to be movement. A lot of people who were actually thinking about leaving their current job but didn't because there wasn't a job to go to. Those people are going to be ripe for movement right now. These are my predictions. So, actually, what any anybody in leadership should be doing right now is doing a full assessment of their team and who does what in their team. And actually, who should be doing a slightly different role in their team? Who should be being progressed? Who has been putting their hand up for a promotion, for a new opportunity, a new technology? Let's spend the time listening to that. Because number one, that should be that should be what we're doing if we are good leaders within the industry. Let's really think about how we can get the best, the best opportunities for our people within our businesses. But also, anyone that tells me, ⁓ we don't have the money to do that, or we don't have the time to do that, my brain always thinks, Well, you soon you'll be forced into making the time for that and forced into spending the money. Because ultimately you're spending you'll be spending it already if you're not. investing in your people, in in time, in skills, and just asking them, how do we improve your experience of working here?
speaker-1: Being a good person doesn't cost money. It's an attitude and approach. So I I'm definitely with you here. And let's combine a little bit two thousand and eight and the current situation, because what we saw back in the market due to uncertainty, no one was investing in juniors engineers, which then grew into the lack of the proper resources, if I may say like that, on the market. So what do you think? Is it going to Repeat itself right now because right now we see no one cares to educate people, to give ⁓ them an ability to open the door into IT. I know that ⁓ actually it's about all the positions in financial industry, because it's not something that it comes for free. You need to invest your time, dedicate resources, learn a lot of things. So is it going to affect the market in near future, like a two, three years?
speaker-0: Yes, I think so. And the biggest bit of advice I'm giving to people is thinking about ⁓ succession planning ⁓ and what happens next. Because right now I think a lot of people in in leadership roles are very comfortable with not hiring in juniors. And you know, they'll talk to one another and they'll say, Okay, look, we're gonna we're gonna replace that with this AI tool or this ⁓ bot or whatever it may be. But actually w if we delve deeper into what that means in two years' time and three years' time. And the reason why this is so important is because I remember, and I said this to you before, I remember 2012 so well. Everyone said to me in 2012, Nadia, where are all the people with three years experience? And I know this is going to happen again. Because of course in 2008, no one was hiring anyone with zero years and investing in them. But I I really think that succession planning is the root of all of this because ultimately we do need new perspectives. We do need to be thinking about who our customers are. we do need to be making sure that we're listening to people of all levels of experience. So it all it is all part of the same conversation for me. But I know, you know, right now we're saying that AI can can replicate some of the entry level roles. It's not all of them, some of them. So why does it stop us all together? Then when we think about what exact experience we're going to need in two years' time for someone to be ready for the next job, well we need to get started now. And I think again, that's another big opportunity for the entire industry. That if we were to look at our current people, talk to them about what they want to do next, suddenly we start we start pushing people up within their roles and their responsibilities, making more gaps to bring other people in. And this isn't just about entry level. I'm a big believer in experienced people from other industries, people who've never worked in FinTech before, know nothing about payments, but may have. A different skill set. Maybe they are they've ⁓ performed huge transformations in a different type of industry. I've seen lots of people in education move into cybersecurity. Fin crime and the sorts of perspectives they're bringing in right now is super interesting. All of this I think is is worth us keeping our eyes open to so that we don't miss. And that's the thing that I always talk about. We miss out on the opportunity because ultimately, however strong AI gets, we need someone Who's experienced it to say, wait a second, that doesn't work for me. And we need we need humans for that. That doesn't work for me. I didn't understand that, the way that that was explained. Or that, or that parameter isn't correct for an experience I've seen. That's what we need more of, and that's not going to be replaced. So I think we should always be thinking, how do we keep the doors open for that and how do we actively encourage that?
speaker-1: That's a really good takeaway. And I think it actually really defines the potential struggles for the next years. Another example that might be interesting for our listeners, in 2012, we saw the first steps of the mobile ⁓ applications, mobile interface coming. And it showed that there is no enough engineers to do the mobile engineering, not because we had mobile engineers, but because something new came in. And we didn't invest into the juniors and There was a huge gap. We need engineers with the new skills set, which didn't exist. And the same might be coming with AI. Okay, maybe we don't need front-end engineering as it used to be on the web, because right now you can make the things faster, there are better tools, but it doesn't mean that you don't need security, that you don't need ⁓ reliance or and ⁓ support on the web side for the ⁓ resilience of the websites, and a lot of a lot of things like marketing, supporting the potential customers. doing the funnels for for customer acquisition and stuff like that. And it means that people somewhere should be educated. They should come into the industry, understand how it functions, and then maybe roll out to the new roles, which we don't see right now because the world is fast pacing into the new state. So it's really great takeaway. And usually I'm asking the question in the end of the episode What question did I I didn't ask today? Something that you would like answer to our audience and explain or or define.
speaker-0: I think we've covered a lot, but there's always something that I want to bring up whenever I have these conversations. And it's a challenge to everybody to really have a think about how do you identify potential? Because if we are serious about succession planning, if we are serious about ret retraining and retaining staff, if we're serious about attracting new minds to this industry, how do we identify potential? And a follow-on question how do you identify potential in someone fairly? Because I think historically people have felt more confident when they're hiring somebody or when they're promoting somebody, if they do something that reminds them of themselves, right? And actually, we are in the age of challenge and debate and positive debate. I don't mean all the negative stuff that we read, I mean positive debate, boosting people, seeing the best in in a product or a system, but then seeing how do we make it better, right? And actually, you need to identify potential in people to put them into these different roles to be able to say, do you know what? I think you would have the potential to be a wonderful leader because I've seen you do this, this, or this. How do we do that? How do we make that the norm for our industry? Because imagine, if not only we're able to identify that potential, but then support that potential and boost that potential, we could a hundred percent Absolutely move the entire ecosystem, the an entire sector, light years forward, because we are helping everybody become one percent better, two percent better, three percent better. The things that we've been chasing for years, and I believe it all comes down to really good potential identification.
speaker-1: That's motivating and thank you for closing with this ⁓ really positive note. ⁓ thank you everyone for watching us till the end. I think it was really intense but still well defined and ⁓ structured. So thank you, Nadit, ⁓ for your participation today. It was fun as usual. ⁓ so please join us for other episodes, follow us on the social networks, and we're looking forward to see you on other episodes.
speaker-0: Thank you.
speaker-1: Hello everyone, my name is Igor Tomic, and I'm CEO at Dash Devs. And today you're looking at a new episode of the Thindergarten podcast. Today with me, Nadia. And it's pretty special episode with me because we had a chance a while ago to talk with the Harrington star about the hiring, and we overlap on several exhibitions and ⁓ events. So for me, it's really, really big pleasure to introduce Nadia Edward Dash T. So hello Nadia, how are you today?
speaker-0: I'm really well. Thank you so much for inviting me onto this podcast. ⁓ it's ⁓ such a brilliant podcast and I love the conversations that you have, so I'm looking forward to the topics we're gonna cover today.
speaker-1: Once again, it's hot because the heat wave is reaching United Kingdom and all the areas of European Union. But I think the topic is even hotter. Harinstant Star is a recruiting agency and helping for the fintechs to find the talents. And the discussion that I would like to go today is the state of the market, of the labor market, how it's affecting finding the talents, what is the appetite from the companies for the talents, and how Everything what we see on the market is affecting it. So I would like maybe to jump with the your definition and your personal view. What is the state of the United Kingdom market for the fintech talent?
speaker-0: And do you know what? It's actually it's a simple question, but it is quite a complex answer right now in the marketplace. But I would like to say it is on the up. And it has been a real struggle for the past three and a half years for anyone looking to ⁓ find a new job within financial services and fintech. And let me just be really specific. ⁓ our our visibility, Harrington Star is a recruitment agency. Our visibility is crop across technology roles, sales roles, risk roles, all the way up to exec across all of FinTech, including payments, crypto, and some of the more traditional financial services companies. Our visibility is vast. We organize maybe a thousand interviews ⁓ every three months. So we have a lot of experience and we have a lot of visibility of what's actually happening out there. And I would say The past three and a half years, we have been in a difficult downturn for hiring. We've seen more redundancies than we've seen growth positions. When people are hiring, they're often hiring to replace or to reorganize how they're trying to work within their organization, rather than a new growth opportunity, a new forward thinking opportunity. And the reason why I say it's quite complex is because the Attitude across financial services and fintech especially has been very much about let's be efficient. And with efficiency comes the focus on being lean. And when you want to be lean, when you're looking at your talent, what are we actually talking about? We're talking about streamlining and therefore redundancies. And many companies have made redundancies in the aim to make their company lean. But actually, what's ended up happening is A lot of people are now taking on positions within a firm where they're taking on two or three roles, where there would have been two or three people. As I'm saying this, I'm sure anyone listening will relate to what I'm saying. Either have been made redundant, no colleagues who have been made redundant, or be in that position where they are looking after somebody else's role. Or what may have been pitched as a growth role. which could have been someone's entirely new position, or maybe it could have been their promotion, but hasn't been. And I think that's what makes it quite complex right now, because we have never been so focused on having to look at the bottom line within fintech. ⁓ and when you look at the bottom line, you look at the cost of the people within your business. But as I started this answer, I did say I do think we're on the up and I want us to hold on to that because it's been a really tough struggle. For anyone looking for work, for anyone looking to be promoted or given a pay rise. It has been the toughest time I've seen across 22 years. That is how it's been for the past three and a half. And actually, this year, slowly but surely, I am starting to see the tides turn. I'm seeing more vacancies. I'm seeing more people who I've been speaking to for months looking for work. I'm seeing them post on LinkedIn. New job, I've started here, I've started there, and that is wonderful to see and long may that last.
speaker-1: The reasons for improvements there are in the numbers. If we you read the latest report in the fintechs and the VCs, it seems that in 2026 there are about 20% more investment in the fintech. But what is interesting for me, like if we go a little bit into the history and you mentioned 22 years of the experience, we saw the corrections and areas or times similar to what is happening right now before, like in 2008. And What is the difference between two thousand eight and two thousand twenty six? How do you feel? How you can describe how it's different.
speaker-0: I think it's very different. ⁓ I think back in two thousand and eight we were all shocked, right? It was like one big event, right? We could understand almost like the human nature you could blame. That's the reason why this is happening to all of us, right? Whereas this time, it's been a slower decline and also there hasn't been any end in sight. So we've had a number of different things happen at the same time. So we had the pandemic. We had the post pandemic boom. We've then had an a huge element of this is a correction because actually after the pandemic, when there was the boom within FinTech, many companies said we overhired, we overgrew, we overinflated salaries, which is true. If anyone wants to think back to 2022 and the hiring there, we saw graduates with zero years of experience being placed 60, 70,000, 80,000 pounds on their basic salaries, right? Which I'd I you know I'd never, never seen, right? So there needed to be some sort of correction. But that would have accounted for some of this, not all of this. I think also alongside that, and we've spoken about this before, it was the valuation bubble bursting, where a lot of fintechs in 22, in 2023, you had lots of media reports about how much they were worth and the value of these fintechs. And then suddenly, and this is what I call about the bubble bursting, suddenly the media reports were coming out that wait a second, to be making that amount of profit, they are spending that amount plus more. So that's actually not a profit at all. Why are we talking in these in these terms that indicate positivity when actually it's a negative? And I think that's that's really come to fruition now. What is the actual benefit? What is the actual reason that we're we're putting these businesses together? Alongside that, and this all compounds everything I'm saying. Alongside that, we've had some really exciting developments with AI. But of course, ⁓ the media again, everything is being whipped up into a frenzy of fear that AI is gonna take over all your jobs. I think now we're starting to see a bit of a balance on that, and people are understanding it's about us using our skills with AI. It's not about repla replacing everybody. There was a wonderful ⁓ a wonderful bit in the media the other day about IKEA. And rather than ⁓ sacking thousands and thousands of people, they have retrained thousands and thousands of people and now they are they're up in their profits because of it. So we're starting to see more positive stories of this. But if you if you add all of these things up, they do compound. On top of that, we have faced so many geopolitical crises over the past few years. everybody is talking about a cost of living and how that has increased. ⁓ from oil prices to food prices to keeping warm. I know we shouldn't talk about keeping warm right now when we're hot, but keeping warm in the winter or keeping cool in the summer, all of this compounds. And I think that with that, it's very different to how it was in two thousand and eight. We knew that we were all hit, we knew we'd hit a financial crisis, and yes, things stopped and we all stopped together, but then we climbed out of it together. Whereas with this, I I often describe it as a slow punch. It's like, what's next? What's next? What's next? And and it's about sort of stepping around all of these problems, trying to work out how we solve these problems and how actually we still exist despite more problems coming our way.
speaker-1: If I may to kind of ⁓ draw the line, for me it feels two different situations. In two thousand eight, it was the stressful end, like we reached the peak and everyone know that it's it's an end. It doesn't work as it was, and then we spend a lot of times half a year, maybe a few years, adapting to the situation. But I feel the situation right now feels at least it's not like it is, but still feels like a never-ending stress, put in vice versa. So both in negative connotations. But I I think you're definitely right that no one knows where the bottom line is, where we will touch and we will get growing. So I think it puts a lot of stress on the candidates, on the market. And we don't feel that we understand how the market and the engineering or the development and digital products they will run from now on. Because the instruments and approaches that we had like a year ago even, ⁓ they're changing. And I here I I would like maybe to put another thought. I really liked the interview from Linus Torwold for AI conference, and he said that we never blame compilers for writing the code. And I think right now in this in this marketing threat we are assuming that actually AI is writing the code, although it's not it. Actually you need a team, actually you need someone with the approach, and that's why I'm calling a gentic approach. Like you need to tell what exactly you want. Own the results, be responsible that it will fix and will function the way that it is, because the LLMs they are still not capable to develop the business end to end. And instead of focusing on the specific hard skill, that is the requirement, but it still requires a lot of accountability for making sure that the final product or the business process will function as expected, because there is no LLM to take this accountability.
speaker-0: Exactly, like who's accountable, who is responsible, and then who's gonna create the next thing? And I think I think that is what we've got to always remember ⁓ in this and I think I think you're absolutely right by sharing that it's just two totally different situations, but also there is the benefit of hindsight. You know, if we talk in ten years' time about what happened, we'll know at that point, well, that was the the worst bit, and then we and we can you know we can talk differently about it. But at the moment, I think this is why the entire industry, any event that we've both been to, there'll always be a conversation about the future of work, what's it gonna look like? And it's all everybody's hypotheses around it all, which I really enjoy talking about, but actually what what what is work right now? How do we get the most out of it for our businesses, for the entire ecosystem? for all the people that are looking to build their careers here. And I think in everything that we've spoken about there, there is ⁓ there is a piece that is that is missing. And it is how we are all progressing despite all the challenges, how we are learning and how we learn faster. And you use the word agile, you know, making sure that agility, which is what FinTech was built on, the the ability to be agile and to question the status quo and say, surely we can do this better. And I would really like us to return to that. How do we do this better despite whatever new hurdles are going to come our way? And how do we do this better for all our people? Of course, I'm a recruiter, so I'm always going to think it starts with people. But I truly think is if as an industry we're thinking about the individuals in our businesses, how do we make sure that they're engaged? How do we support them when they're worried about everything that we've just discussed? How do we help them be the best that they can be? That in turn makes the team the best it can be, in turn makes the business, in turn supports the entire industry and the ecosystem and has huge ramifications. So I think you're absolutely right. It's very different to what it was in two thousand and eight. But the one thing that holds holds true is people every single time.
speaker-1: That's true because still people doing the things. So that that's true. Coming back to the companies, because we we discovered the stress that people are experiencing right now with the finding new places, ⁓ refining their positions, taking more accountability. But what about the the companies and the market state itself? Because a few years back, if you take a look with the start of full scale invasion of Russia, the market like ⁓ were really cautious with the investments, like no one knows what is happening, and then the the war with Iran started, which is brought price is really on top. So what do you think where we are right now with the companies? Is it the market of the companies? Do they feel confident in the future? Do they benefit from AI and stuff like that? What is your view?
speaker-0: Know whether we can say that anyone feels truly confident in the future unless they're betting on instability, right? But then haven't we always said this, right? About financial services, the winners are always the ones that that will celebrate when things go wrong, right? Because that that is life and there's going to be a lot of challenges. But I do think the shift that is worth talking about is ⁓ you've touched upon it there about the companies and like sort of what they're betting on, and right now. The companies, I think, are betting on the fact that there will always be somebody else to work within their business. This is from the the people point of view. And this I think is a dangerous place to be. So I have always championed the talents that are within our industry, like who those people are, the experience they bring, but also talented people from external to our industry and what perspectives they bring to it. And I think we are very, very powerful when we bring in different perspectives and experiences. And what has sadly happened, as companies have felt more secure in their ability to identify talent, they've forgotten this wonderful pool of knowledge that actually is in attracting new people to the space. And the reason why I talk about this is because if we roll back to 2022, when there you know the last sort of boom in hiring that we could all remember, if I had said to any hiring manager or any CEO, tomorrow ten percent of your staff are going to leave. They would have panicked and they would have said, What do I need to do to make them stay? How do I look after them? Do they need flexi time? Do I need to support? Do I need to make sure that everyone has a new desk at home to work from? I don't know if anyone remembers this, but there were even conversations around companies paying for people's electricity bills when they were working from home. I mean, right now, imagine having that conversation, right? This is this is the stark difference. So when we talk about the power the companies have, yes, of course, they are so worried about the future geopolitically, but what they're not necessarily worried enough about, which I would love them to be, is looking after their staff and valuing people being able to feel safe at work. Because ultimately, if I was to ask a CEO today 10% do you think 10% of your staff is going to leave tomorrow, they would not be that worried. They would either say, well Actually, we could do with being a bit more lean, or I know there's a thousand other people knocking at the door. And this is such short-sighted thinking because ultimately we have such amazing talents within our industry, experienced people, people bringing their perspective of the past two years. And that perspective of a shift or and it's been such a stark shift from many companies hiring to many companies reducing and and all the different ways of working that that entails, I think we have to really work hard. at ⁓ retaining that knowledge and making sure that as all the industries start to pick themselves up and hire again, that we're not losing those people.
speaker-1: That's ⁓ another takeaway which I think everyone who's listening should should write down. Because shifting from understanding how reality works might bring issues. Because if we assume that ⁓ LLMs will replace people and it not, what are the outcomes? Like who is going to educate juniors, who is going to drive the personal development plans for medial engineers? Or who will educate people against IML fraud detection and stuff like that? Certain points should be closed and might be closed well with the LLMs and AI, but it doesn't mean that we will need less people. Maybe we will be producing more in a more efficient way, more quality way. But that that's a potential issue, the risk that are those companies will be able to mitigate. Because if it's going to flip into the market of the ⁓ engineers or market of people. Then the companies will be in struggle because it's not so easy to stretch the dynamics. If you have 100 engineers and you have the job for 200s, it's going to be the bloodbath for hiring, for bonuses, for getting people getting the things done. Because why try hard? I can go to another place and make even more. So the results might be affected. So it's really good takeaway and thinking even right now when we feel that the market is different, it's just the market of the companies. So That's definitely well thought. And I would like to maybe go into the ghost jobs because that's something which is also connected with the companies. And while preparing, we we discussed this like at the ghost job. What what is it in UK market? How does it work?
speaker-0: ⁓ so we often call them silent searches as well, which I think people may may may call them either or. And essentially we're seeing a number of them where companies are looking to restructure ⁓ at the top. And when they're restructuring at the top, they will do something ⁓ more confidentially and they will come to a company like us and talk to us about it and we'll support them with it. That's one way of looking at ghost jobs or silent searches. The other way of looking at ghost jobs is when companies put out a couple of vacancies, they start the hire and then they don't follow up with the person whatsoever. And I think this is something that I wrote about in ⁓ one of my Forbes articles because I wanted to highlight that this is something that we've got to make sure that we're stopping doing because it is destroying the the names of companies, the brands of companies, because talent in the industry will remember how they're treated. And this is something that I am super, super passionate about. So let me just give a bit of context around this. I think ⁓ when we were hiring lots within the industry, everyone spoke about Glassdoor. Everyone spoke about how their company was perceived, what was the vibe in the market, if they'd made some big changes between their series A and series B, which of course you know companies will do, there were lots of questions like, you know, do do people have a good perception of us, Nadia? What do they think of us? I don't really get these questions anymore, right? But and this is what happens when we talk about the complacency around talent and the belief that so there will be another application behind this one. And I think what has happened with AI, with all the shifts that we're talking about, is there are less faces to recruitment. And what I mean by that is that anybody applying to jobs, well, how much work do you need to do until you actually speak to someone at the company? So All the automation that's happening in AI, if that automation doesn't include responding to candidates, going back to them, letting them know why they were a no or why they haven't had had any response yet, how are they supposed to feel and what they're supposed to think. Now, the example I've just given, imagine that with one person. Now imagine that one person having that a hundred times. Now imagine a hundred people having that a hundred times. Now let's have a think about how many people actually work within our industry right now who've been made redundant, who are doing these applications, who are being treated this way, and what industries they're going to move to with their transferable skills if we don't sort out how we're communicating with the people who are looking for work.
speaker-1: And coming from engineering ⁓ communities and being an engineer, I think it's a phenomenon that sometimes management is underestimating because ⁓ there are positions which are horizontal and they are not sitting just in one industry, like a fintech, because engineers in various, various different ⁓ industries like automotive, e com different, different stuff like healthcare. And being an engineer seen from inside, it feels really different because one way or another. You still have an ability to pull, hey, you know, someone who's working this company and how's there and that. So the community still has a really good vision what is going on. And people still get a feeling that certain jobs are not for finding the talents, but for maybe promoting the companies, stuff like that. So I I think it's really well put that companies are underestimating how the real things are working. Because ghosting, not providing the feedback. It's better not doing anything than doing the bad process because it brings more damage for the brand and for the company rather than just like not doing the things that you didn't have res resources.
speaker-0: One of the things that I was urging companies to do, and I still do this, is if they put an advert out for a particular role and look, they could receive four hundred ⁓ advert advert responses and not actually have the time or know even where to start to go through those, what would stop a business from putting a post out onto LinkedIn? ⁓ like or or onto any any of their platforms? And say thank you to all the hundreds of people that recently applied to this job. We had no idea we were going to receive five hundred plus responses. We are going to go through them, but please, if we don't come back to you by Friday the twenty-sixth, please can you acknowledge that that means that we are not taking your whatever, whatever they were to say. But do you know what that would do for people? It would allow them to move on. And I've spent twenty two years, as I've said, talking to people who are looking for work. And the worst thing for people is the not knowing. If they know that Friday the twenty-sixth has come and gone and therefore they can cross that application off their list and focus on one that might be a maybe and how to turn that to a yes, they can move on. But what has happened to all of these ⁓ applicants that are making application after application, being forced into basic AI tools for their application without any real assessment of who they are and what they can do, it's soul destroying for these people. And it's affecting people who've never ever in their lifetime of careers seen seen anything at this these sorts of volumes or been been up against as many people at this these sorts of volumes. So I think ⁓ we've got to remember the people within the process every single time. And I always say that. But especially when it comes to ⁓ advertising for roles, be super careful ⁓ and think Is this role definitely something that we want? Are these skills exactly what we need right now? Do we have the people power to actually perform all the CV reviewing? Do we have the people power to go through the interview processes? Do we know for sure exactly what we want our interview process to be? If so, why aren't you advertising that? So we expect to review all CVs by the 26th. So the next Tuesday we'll be conducting four interviews. By the Friday, the final interviews. Imagine if we all were communicating like that. I think it would reduce a lot of stress ⁓ by reducing the ambiguity.
speaker-1: Transparency is the key and it works both sides for the candidates and for the companies and especially when you are getting the first touches with the company. Like that's why marketing when they working with the customers, the the difference is i in the air. Like you're getting the transactional emails, you're getting a lot of a lot of communication could to keep you in a loop. And what I'm saying actually to my team that ⁓ companies sell in three times to the customers, to the existing team. but also to someone who is not working yet with the company. So that's the same. You need to treat the potential candidate, someone who is seeking the job, even if you don't have a big appetite. Like you post it, you are tracking what is on the market, you still need to treat them as a customers, but because that's how the company should work. Like
speaker-0: I completely agree with what you said there. And I think that what's happening right now is lots of companies are forgetting two of your three groups. They're forgetting that actually anyone that comes into contact with you and applies to you, you want them, you want them to wish that they were working for you. You want them to go and tell their friends, I had an amazing experience. Unfortunately, it wasn't a match, but it was an amazing experience. A hundred percent, but also that middle group that you mentioned, the people that currently work for you. And I think that this is a huge opportunity for all of the industry, especially right now, because we started this podcast saying that you know things were starting to improve, people are hiring again, which means there's going to be movement. A lot of people who were actually thinking about leaving their current job but didn't because there wasn't a job to go to. Those people are going to be ripe for movement right now. These are my predictions. So, actually, what any anybody in leadership should be doing right now is doing a full assessment of their team and who does what in their team. And actually, who should be doing a slightly different role in their team? Who should be being progressed? Who has been putting their hand up for a promotion, for a new opportunity, a new technology? Let's spend the time listening to that. Because number one, that should be that should be what we're doing if we are good leaders within the industry. Let's really think about how we can get the best, the best opportunities for our people within our businesses. But also, anyone that tells me, ⁓ we don't have the money to do that, or we don't have the time to do that, my brain always thinks, Well, you soon you'll be forced into making the time for that and forced into spending the money. Because ultimately you're spending you'll be spending it already if you're not. investing in your people, in in time, in skills, and just asking them, how do we improve your experience of working here?
speaker-1: Being a good person doesn't cost money. It's an attitude and approach. So I I'm definitely with you here. And let's combine a little bit two thousand and eight and the current situation, because what we saw back in the market due to uncertainty, no one was investing in juniors engineers, which then grew into the lack of the proper resources, if I may say like that, on the market. So what do you think? Is it going to Repeat itself right now because right now we see no one cares to educate people, to give ⁓ them an ability to open the door into IT. I know that ⁓ actually it's about all the positions in financial industry, because it's not something that it comes for free. You need to invest your time, dedicate resources, learn a lot of things. So is it going to affect the market in near future, like a two, three years?
speaker-0: Yes, I think so. And the biggest bit of advice I'm giving to people is thinking about ⁓ succession planning ⁓ and what happens next. Because right now I think a lot of people in in leadership roles are very comfortable with not hiring in juniors. And you know, they'll talk to one another and they'll say, Okay, look, we're gonna we're gonna replace that with this AI tool or this ⁓ bot or whatever it may be. But actually w if we delve deeper into what that means in two years' time and three years' time. And the reason why this is so important is because I remember, and I said this to you before, I remember 2012 so well. Everyone said to me in 2012, Nadia, where are all the people with three years experience? And I know this is going to happen again. Because of course in 2008, no one was hiring anyone with zero years and investing in them. But I I really think that succession planning is the root of all of this because ultimately we do need new perspectives. We do need to be thinking about who our customers are. we do need to be making sure that we're listening to people of all levels of experience. So it all it is all part of the same conversation for me. But I know, you know, right now we're saying that AI can can replicate some of the entry level roles. It's not all of them, some of them. So why does it stop us all together? Then when we think about what exact experience we're going to need in two years' time for someone to be ready for the next job, well we need to get started now. And I think again, that's another big opportunity for the entire industry. That if we were to look at our current people, talk to them about what they want to do next, suddenly we start we start pushing people up within their roles and their responsibilities, making more gaps to bring other people in. And this isn't just about entry level. I'm a big believer in experienced people from other industries, people who've never worked in FinTech before, know nothing about payments, but may have. A different skill set. Maybe they are they've ⁓ performed huge transformations in a different type of industry. I've seen lots of people in education move into cybersecurity. Fin crime and the sorts of perspectives they're bringing in right now is super interesting. All of this I think is is worth us keeping our eyes open to so that we don't miss. And that's the thing that I always talk about. We miss out on the opportunity because ultimately, however strong AI gets, we need someone Who's experienced it to say, wait a second, that doesn't work for me. And we need we need humans for that. That doesn't work for me. I didn't understand that, the way that that was explained. Or that, or that parameter isn't correct for an experience I've seen. That's what we need more of, and that's not going to be replaced. So I think we should always be thinking, how do we keep the doors open for that and how do we actively encourage that?
speaker-1: That's a really good takeaway. And I think it actually really defines the potential struggles for the next years. Another example that might be interesting for our listeners, in 2012, we saw the first steps of the mobile ⁓ applications, mobile interface coming. And it showed that there is no enough engineers to do the mobile engineering, not because we had mobile engineers, but because something new came in. And we didn't invest into the juniors and There was a huge gap. We need engineers with the new skills set, which didn't exist. And the same might be coming with AI. Okay, maybe we don't need front-end engineering as it used to be on the web, because right now you can make the things faster, there are better tools, but it doesn't mean that you don't need security, that you don't need ⁓ reliance or and ⁓ support on the web side for the ⁓ resilience of the websites, and a lot of a lot of things like marketing, supporting the potential customers. doing the funnels for for customer acquisition and stuff like that. And it means that people somewhere should be educated. They should come into the industry, understand how it functions, and then maybe roll out to the new roles, which we don't see right now because the world is fast pacing into the new state. So it's really great takeaway. And usually I'm asking the question in the end of the episode What question did I I didn't ask today? Something that you would like answer to our audience and explain or or define.
speaker-0: I think we've covered a lot, but there's always something that I want to bring up whenever I have these conversations. And it's a challenge to everybody to really have a think about how do you identify potential? Because if we are serious about succession planning, if we are serious about ret retraining and retaining staff, if we're serious about attracting new minds to this industry, how do we identify potential? And a follow-on question how do you identify potential in someone fairly? Because I think historically people have felt more confident when they're hiring somebody or when they're promoting somebody, if they do something that reminds them of themselves, right? And actually, we are in the age of challenge and debate and positive debate. I don't mean all the negative stuff that we read, I mean positive debate, boosting people, seeing the best in in a product or a system, but then seeing how do we make it better, right? And actually, you need to identify potential in people to put them into these different roles to be able to say, do you know what? I think you would have the potential to be a wonderful leader because I've seen you do this, this, or this. How do we do that? How do we make that the norm for our industry? Because imagine, if not only we're able to identify that potential, but then support that potential and boost that potential, we could a hundred percent Absolutely move the entire ecosystem, the an entire sector, light years forward, because we are helping everybody become one percent better, two percent better, three percent better. The things that we've been chasing for years, and I believe it all comes down to really good potential identification.
speaker-1: That's motivating and thank you for closing with this ⁓ really positive note. ⁓ thank you everyone for watching us till the end. I think it was really intense but still well defined and ⁓ structured. So thank you, Nadit, ⁓ for your participation today. It was fun as usual. ⁓ so please join us for other episodes, follow us on the social networks, and we're looking forward to see you on other episodes.
speaker-0: Thank you.
