Episode 40 - Stamping on the Shoulders of Giants: Deconstruction vs Reconstruction in Modern Fiction

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This is Fictional Problems, the podcast where we discuss all things writing,
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in association with Speculative Fiction Ireland.
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In this episode, we're exploring the difference between deconstruction and reconstruction
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of characters in popular fiction.
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Why are so many modern stories tearing down the heroes we know and love to make
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way for their replacements?
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And why are so many of these attempts failing to connect with their audience?
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Join us.
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And welcome back to Fictional Problems, the podcast where we discuss all things
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writing in association with Speculative Fiction Ireland with myself, Gary J. Martin.
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And myself, A1R7. Hit it.
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Hit it. Fine. Be like that. So, a lot of, so this is, is this going to be a
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rant? No, it's not going to be a rant. It's going to start, it's going to start
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off sounding like a rant. It's not a rant. Okay.
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What I have seen, and others have noticed, and I'm not special in seeing this,
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is the deconstruction of many a beloved character over the past few years.
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One could point to things like skywalker indiana jones even lesser loved characters like hawkeye,
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that they have been brought back they are lesser forms of what they were yeah
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and then they're replaced.
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The reason this comes to mind is with the new show Lanterns.
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I see. Which has a beloved aged character who is arguably lesser than he was.
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Now we have both seen the pilot episode called Pilot. Is it called Pilot? Apparently.
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So, yeah, so spoilers for the first episode, because we might get into that.
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So there's been, and that is about, you could point, that is quite obviously
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about his replacement. Yeah.
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Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan being replaced by Jon Stewart.
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Jon with a H, not without.
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And the first few examples are examples of deconstruction without reconstruction.
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And this is a key difference of why Lanterns, A, the first episode,
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in my mind, was stonkingly good, despite the fact that Dana Lindelof was involved, who I really hate.
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No, I did disagree when we first mentioned Lanterns.
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I did not particularly like the first episode of Lanterns for a number of reasons,
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maybe, and perhaps it was to do with the deconstruction of Hal Jordan, insofar as,
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the way the aged superhero was being talked to or treated or disregarded by
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local law enforcement or just...
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He's a superhero and the sheriff is like, I don't believe you.
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No, no, he doesn't believe because I suspect that her name is Cain and she came
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from a place where another person called Cain comes from and was on the phone,
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and said, say hi to Barbara for me.
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So there is enough Easter eggs of where she's from in the first episode and
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it doubles down in the second.
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No, no spoilers for second.
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But the thing is, I can understand that reaction. And,
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the reason why I want to include it in this mix is that so often in media these
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days, we find the deconstruction of the character or the deconstruction of the,
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historic character without the attempt to create something new.
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And this is the crux of the problem, that while we're all called,
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well, many of us are called sexists for going, well, they're replacing the old
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man with the young woman. Yeah. Like, well, clearly you're sexist against the young woman.
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No. It's nothing to do with that at all. It is that the, or the old white guy
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is being replaced by the young black guy.
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It doesn't matter. No, it is, you haven't spent any time building up the other character.
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So you are trying to reflect glory that was established by the guy with the
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whip, or the guy with the blade, or the guy with the ring.
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Yeah, and like you were right from the off when you were saying about the deconstruction,
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you did mention Luke Skywalker replaced by Rey. Yep.
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Skywalker, I guess, ultimately.
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And in the Dial of Destiny, which doesn't exist. Doesn't exist,
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never happened. Indiana Jones, an
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elderly Indiana Jones replaced by Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, but the problem with that being that, okay, you have years and years of
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setting up the characters of Luke and Indiana Jones.
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You have their original movies or the original trilogy of movies where,
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you know, they're like we talked about before in Indiana Jones, it's wrapped up.
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Almost perfectly at the end of the last crusade,
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and then it's like oh flash forward a few years later that excellent character
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that you like is now a drunk old and and you know a drunk or or
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fill in the character flaw that has become the exaggerate become their entire personality is this,
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whatever series of flaws we are putting together in order to make you see that
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this new person is going to be so much better yes yeah and this is the thing
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that's sort of breaking them down in in tv shows as well especially long-term
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tv shows what you'll find is,
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that the the characters who have been their longest who have established themselves as being,
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smart or funny or as soon as they want to introduce another character into the mix,
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they will show them in a better light than that character.
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It's like, no, no, I want this person, you know, that person has established
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themselves as being the go-to person, the smart one.
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It doesn't mean they have to be smart all the time, but you're,
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instead of building up the other character, you're reducing down.
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So it's almost like having dials on one of those... Like a sound desk. Exactly.
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Turn down the bass, up the treble. Exactly. You have all these different dials,
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and instead of pushing the one dial up to 8, 9, 10 and writing to that level,
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you go and we're going to reduce everyone down to a 4.
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So the 5 looks great. Exactly.
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So this deconstruction happens all the time. In good TV shows and bad TV shows.
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Why is it, okay, why are they doing
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that instead of writing the better replacement? Well, one is they can't.
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As I mentioned, one of the culprits of this is Lindelof, who is,
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they can't fucking write. And others are Dan and Dave, Benioff and Weiss.
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These guys can't simply do it. And And you can also say that there,
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is a societal impetus that while I don't think society is any way more woke
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or less woke or more sexist or less sexist or more racist or less racist,
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there is a push from the Hollywood model to go, well, we have to establish ourselves.
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We must be the paragons of virtue.
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Is that exactly what's happening, though? It's a case of, yeah,
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your 80s, 70s, 80s, you know, action stars were typically white men.
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And like, okay, well, Jackie Chan.
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Okay, well, yeah, sure, but name Jackie Chan's iconic character,
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like Luke, or Indiana Jones, he doesn't have one.
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Yeah, but he did far, please story, please story two. Yeah, can't name the character
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though. No, no, but the thing is, you don't need to name the character,
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because it wasn't the character, the draw.
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Indeed That's when That's I remember There's a line Recently from It wasn't
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that recently From Anthony Mackie Who said that You don't,
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You're not going to A Falcon movie anymore You're going to A A Marvel movie
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Yeah You're not You're not going to An Anthony Mackie movie You're going to
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A Marvel movie So You're going to You're going to see Like,
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If I asked you to name Tom Cruise's Character In anything Any of the non-franchise
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Movie that you've seen Could you Like Colonel Algren in The Last Samurai?
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Or... Well, sorry.
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Yeah, I know you're right. Cocktail.
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Cocktail, no. You have Maverick in Top Gun. Yeah, yeah. Well,
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that's a franchise. Then you have Ethan Hunt in...
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What about Live, Die, Repeat? Which was...
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Price was his name. Cage. Sorry, Cage. Cage. I was like... No,
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I was thinking of something. Yeah, Cage.
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Fine. Major Cage. Major Cage. by an example but,
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you would accept that the vast majority of people wouldn't identify and go this
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is a Tom Cruise movie same with Jackie Chan that it was a Jackie Chan movie same with,
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even a Stallone movie name all the characters he played like Rocky Balboa name
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his character in Expendables movies no.
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No idea name his character John Hardcastle John Hardcastle Or all the Statham movies.
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Yeah. How many different, you know, you're not going to a Statham movie for
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the name of the character. You know, you, it's, Statham did this.
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Yeah. Statham did that. Yeah.
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And those are the exceptions to the rule of the, there, because Mack,
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one last thing, Mackie was saying was that the vast majority of times,
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as in, I think Tom Cruise was the only example of. Yeah. Yeah.
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Tom Cruise is the only example of. Of someone who you go, I'm going to see.
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Oh, go ahead and tell me. You're not going to see the Tim, let's see the Timothee Chalamet movie.
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You're going to see the Bob Dylan movie. You're not going to see the Dune movie, you know?
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And so there is a. Well, that, yeah, that also works with some directors people
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go to the Christopher Nolan movie,
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this is true yeah but that is that is an exception maybe that and Tarantino
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yeah the Tarantino movie yeah you would go to the next Tarantino movie yeah
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that's coming out I'll taste,
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or one would one would yes but you know those are those are the exceptions rather
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than the rules yeah Jim Cameron I don't know I don't know anymore with Jim Cameron,
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back in the day maybe back in the day because then that becomes you're going
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to the Avatar movie because if you had a choice between going to a Cameron movie
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or going to an Avatar movie.
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Would that be a there'd be a push-pull I imagine on that I always say that the
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reason for this is happening is that there is a.
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The Hollywood has taken this position of being we are the betterment of mankind
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and we are going to direct people on how to be better to one another and how
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we're going to do this is what we're going to,
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With great power comes great responsibility, and they feel like they have great
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power. And they are realizing that they don't.
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The movies that are being lauded are ones that are not these deconstructions.
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Indeed, the ones that are being lauded are the ones that have reconstructions.
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You can do. Yeah. You can take the exact same thing of, this is an old character.
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He's passing over the baton.
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Lanterns is that perfect example. Well, I have a good example as well.
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It's in the superhero realm as well.
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So you take a movie like Dial of Destiny, it's just bad.
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It's bad, that whole idea of knocking Indiana Jones, like your favorite character
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that you followed all your life, and now he's just crap.
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You know and that is I absolutely hate that and but of a good example of one
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where the older character and that's Logan,
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I hate Logan oh no no no Logan is nah I have to disagree there Logan's great
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really really really really fucking hate Logan and every time it's the master but no it really is not,
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it is a hollow piece of shit it is and it is the science fiction is very very
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bad I can see what they're trying to do and I can see how they're fucking failing,
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But, and in that, there's no passing on of the baton.
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While X-23... X-23, yeah. ...is, she, it's not that she becomes an ex-Wolverine. No.
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She just exists. So there's no passing on of the baton.
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So that's why I would make an exception.
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I would not say... Doesn't fall into the deconstruction realm?
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Yes. Even though they kind of, they have Wolverine suffering and dying,
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and like slowly dying of his...
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You would say that Adamantium indeed his replacement Wolverine yeah as in he
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plays the CGI'd version of himself,
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which he kills off is is the closest to her replacement X-23 isn't,
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there isn't there is as in she is a well at the time of the movie ending I suppose
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yes but then that's again every movie is a capital yeah yeah yeah they could
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have continued that with,
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her possibly taken a role then they would have been a different story yeah well.
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But the Lanterns is, they are,
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it is, it is directly and obviously, it's not, not, not just Phoebe Waller-Bridge
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coming in to replace the guy that you really have an attachment to.
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Yeah. Most people don't have an attachment to Hal Jordan.
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And anyone who's claiming to have an attachment to him, you don't fucking have
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an attachment to him. Well, is, is that why you think Lanterns works is because
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both characters are introduced, essentially, this is a, it is a new project.
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Both characters are introduced at the same time already in the roles of aging
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superhero versus replacement,
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they're existing at the same time basically one is training the other in a way because,
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in the first episode we see four different timelines and then they're definitely
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doing a true detective season one riff which is great because if you're going
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to rip off something off rip off the greatest stuff around,
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Having, you know, they're going to essentially spend the next seven episodes.
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Like how Jordan dies in the end of 2026.
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Yeah. The show is set a decade earlier. He's got a decade left to live.
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Okay. So there is a lot more that he can do.
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So when people are saying, oh my God, they killed him.
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He's still around. Have you, didn't see the trailer?
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He's still around. Yeah, didn't see the trailer. He's going to be around for
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the next six, probably seven episodes. Okay.
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Assuming it's an eight-episode run. I think it's eight episodes.
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So will they get numerous seasons? No, they're Green Lantern. They're Green Lantern.
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The second season. The Green Lantern. The second season, yeah.
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So I think they've already approved the second season, because we're also going
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to have Jon Stewart's Green Lantern in the next Superman movie. Okay.
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As opposed to Guy Gardner. I don't know they're going to part of Gargarner 2
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because Gargarner is also going to feature in this show.
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So, with a different haircut. It's the haircut, wasn't it? Well,
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that was a classic haircut, which I appreciate. It was, yeah, it was comic accurate.
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Yeah, which I appreciate but I don't need it to be.
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But I'd say that in two ways. One.
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They're not deconstructing a beloved character but they are deconstructing an
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aged character so I can understand the hate that's coming out of the right, my God, is palpable of.
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They see the reaction, they see the, oh my God, there's a woman playing a sheriff.
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Oh my God, they're deconstructing a white guy and they're having a black guy in this place.
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That sort of horrible reaction, without actually understanding what's happening.
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They're just seeing the tropes. Yeah. when in truth you have a person who is
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at the end of their days who is coming who,
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has seen too much because if they had a true understanding of this character he has destroyed people,
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he has lived through fucking 40 years of warfare,
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in order to get to where he is now he's happy he's not happy to retire but there's a,
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there's a conflict in him yeah you talk to any any NYPD cop or any LAPD cop
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that have even done 20 years and they've seen some shit over their time you
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can imagine an intergalactic space cop going yeah.
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I'm done I've seen too much been too far you know gone too high sorry it's 20
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years he he interested himself in in 96 and then it's setting 20 years so yeah so 20 years oh yeah so,
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anyway still same point 20 years of space copping and yeah,
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it rips because he has lost he doesn't you know he doesn't have family he doesn't
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have friends he doesn't have function that's it so you can so it's not that,
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you took the person at the end of the last crusade who had friends and family
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and was riding off together in happiness not the person you took at the end of.
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Return to Jedi who was literally surrounded by friends who was had established,
00:18:31.550 --> 00:18:38.806
a new government who was going to establish a new school for his way of teaching the force.
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All the all the the hope the hope and anticipation for these characters and
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then it was just fucking destroyed it's this person has lived a life and we're
00:18:49.868 --> 00:18:54.368
going to see part of that life we're going to see we've seen him say I'm not afraid but it's,
00:18:55.352 --> 00:18:59.899
and indeed this is why I think that the also the the John Stewart character
00:19:00.227 --> 00:19:06.375
is also being played very very well in that they are do you remember a a movie
00:19:06.521 --> 00:19:08.683
Will Smith movie called After Earth yeah,
00:19:09.355 --> 00:19:14.220
where they where they weren't meant to be weren't meant to show fear yeah,
00:19:14.957 --> 00:19:19.828
that's essentially a green lantern they shouldn't show fear fear is yellow fear
00:19:19.828 --> 00:19:21.551
is the opposite yeah of will,
00:19:22.326 --> 00:19:29.477
and just seeing these two interact seeing them just both interacting with one another they're not,
00:19:30.127 --> 00:19:35.808
being afraid yeah but they are showing other emotions that show put them in
00:19:35.808 --> 00:19:39.836
conflict like there there's It's just...
00:19:40.843 --> 00:19:46.381
There's an awareness behind the writing that makes me really annoyed that Damon Lindelof is involved.
00:19:46.940 --> 00:19:50.137
And this is it, I suppose, if you're talking about, is that then a complete
00:19:50.295 --> 00:19:52.437
and utter lack of awareness of,
00:19:53.132 --> 00:19:58.298
like, surely when the writer of, or writers of Dial of Destiny,
00:19:58.797 --> 00:20:03.400
or the new Star Wars, the Force Awakens, etc.
00:20:04.207 --> 00:20:08.665
Surely when they're going, we're going to do this to a beloved character.
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.820
Are they not thinking, we could deconstruct and we'll give them these flaws
00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:20.250
and we'll allow them past the torch to someone else.
00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:24.590
But do you have to be in the toilet when you pass the torch?
00:20:24.590 --> 00:20:33.057
Do you have to be totally ripped apart and broken down and just can't hack it anymore?
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:39.263
Or the line from Trainspotting is like, oh, that's your theory about Sean Connery.
00:20:39.547 --> 00:20:43.251
You get old, you can't hack it, and you die. That's not a theory.
00:20:44.336 --> 00:20:49.507
But that's what's happened to these beloved characters.
00:20:51.683 --> 00:20:57.080
And is there no awareness of that? I think it's... Does that make it worse?
00:20:57.820 --> 00:21:03.980
I think it's hubris. It's the idea that they can write better or they can instruct
00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:06.199
better. That's where it comes down to that.
00:21:08.057 --> 00:21:13.430
These instructions on how to be. You should respect the, the woman with the
00:21:13.430 --> 00:21:16.051
lightsaber, just same as you can respect the man with the lightsaber.
00:21:16.707 --> 00:21:20.160
Despite the fact that the man with the lightsaber spent three years,
00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:24.550
three movies earning our fucking respect. Yeah. 30 years, basically.
00:21:24.550 --> 00:21:27.380
Well, no, no, just the three, no, just the three, just the three movies.
00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.071
That was it. Just three movies.
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.802
Why does he get to wield it because he defeated Dark Vader Rey didn't.
00:21:36.217 --> 00:21:38.902
You have to actually put the work in. You have to construct.
00:21:39.030 --> 00:21:41.003
You have to construct your own lightsaber.
00:21:41.149 --> 00:21:47.679
Yeah, but in the canon, you have to, Jedi construct their own lightsaber. She never did. Sure.
00:21:47.792 --> 00:21:52.257
She skipped all the building, all the suffering.
00:21:53.801 --> 00:21:56.414
She didn't go flipping through a swamp with Yoda on her back.
00:21:56.617 --> 00:21:59.197
No. She had a brief montage.
00:21:59.697 --> 00:22:03.517
She didn't. Where she already had, always doing all the powers,
00:22:03.517 --> 00:22:05.087
and suddenly she can do force healing.
00:22:05.302 --> 00:22:09.336
So it is not understanding of how to construct.
00:22:09.487 --> 00:22:14.107
You know, it's the reason why I will always go back to gaming as a,
00:22:14.107 --> 00:22:19.565
as in TTRPGs, as a method of developing a character. Yeah.
00:22:19.878 --> 00:22:24.667
That even if it's just power-based, even if you ignore all the strengths of
00:22:24.667 --> 00:22:28.737
how to develop a character, their personality, their relationships.
00:22:30.857 --> 00:22:34.537
Their hates, their wants. even if you ignore that and just go right I'm just
00:22:34.537 --> 00:22:36.812
going to build up character power wise,
00:22:37.422 --> 00:22:41.877
then you simply look at any TTRPG and go right how does this work okay right
00:22:41.877 --> 00:22:47.227
well they can't jump from level 1 to level 10 without going through experience
00:22:47.227 --> 00:22:48.637
without going through 2,
00:22:48.932 --> 00:22:52.531
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
00:22:52.873 --> 00:22:57.737
simple as that's why like in Dungeons and Dragons it is experience based so,
00:22:58.697 --> 00:23:03.337
it can be milestone based as well I know yeah but the experience points idea,
00:23:04.217 --> 00:23:08.843
as a concept puts a 10th level character next to another 10th level character,
00:23:09.301 --> 00:23:12.537
of equal experience or has passed equal milestones,
00:23:13.497 --> 00:23:18.877
as opposed to what they have done which is put a 20th level character next to
00:23:18.877 --> 00:23:22.597
a 20th level character who's actually a first level character but just with
00:23:22.597 --> 00:23:27.146
all the powers yeah and then and it almost exposes the,
00:23:27.934 --> 00:23:32.762
we're not they then hide behind going clearly you must be a racist or you must
00:23:32.762 --> 00:23:37.872
be a sexist for things like no we want a genuine character like this is what
00:23:37.872 --> 00:23:39.967
more writers should be TTRPG players,
00:23:40.782 --> 00:23:45.653
I've said that for fucking years that it is but the thing is oh sorry I used to say that,
00:23:46.612 --> 00:23:48.512
But with the advent, with more
00:23:48.512 --> 00:23:52.493
and more people looking at things like Critical Role and Dimension 20.
00:23:54.536 --> 00:24:03.243
I think that it has changed it to a, I want that version of the Mercer effect.
00:24:03.348 --> 00:24:11.342
I want a DM who can do all these voices and has all these models laid out and no theater.
00:24:11.342 --> 00:24:16.482
Amazing maps. and yeah. Yeah, it's, it, that is a version of Blake,
00:24:16.482 --> 00:24:20.562
which is grand and I have no problem with it, but their whole theater in the
00:24:20.562 --> 00:24:24.912
mind and being able to adjust on the flying.
00:24:25.542 --> 00:24:29.945
Yeah. I've met too many or even describe. Oh, even, yes, even describe.
00:24:31.282 --> 00:24:35.432
That, that is a, a wonderful tool to develop for, for any writer.
00:24:35.432 --> 00:24:39.472
Yeah. To be able to say, okay, then, you know, as in, what, what are,
00:24:39.472 --> 00:24:40.775
what am I seeing right now? Yeah.
00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:46.678
You're in a tavern there's a fire okay there's a couple of guys okay describe them to me,
00:24:47.311 --> 00:24:50.812
and being able to even off the cuff being able to go okay right let's throw
00:24:50.812 --> 00:24:55.202
some let's put some life into this instead of yeah they're all human why are
00:24:55.202 --> 00:24:57.037
they all human well because this place is racist,
00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:03.262
because and then as opposed to there's one guy with you know with a bandage
00:25:03.262 --> 00:25:07.722
across one eye and a crow sitting on his shoulder dressed in you know tarnished,
00:25:08.362 --> 00:25:10.225
you know broken leather armor,
00:25:11.662 --> 00:25:16.412
with a cloak which seems to have some sort of symbols on the inside of it you
00:25:16.412 --> 00:25:21.580
give it detail you give it purpose you give it spice and the next minute it becomes real yes.
00:25:23.062 --> 00:25:29.602
Then you also have to follow it up that's the thing that is often not taught
00:25:29.811 --> 00:25:34.878
by these by Dimension 20 and Criterole is that you establish that,
00:25:36.078 --> 00:25:39.239
And in a similar way, you're not constructing. You're going,
00:25:39.239 --> 00:25:42.720
here's a one-pager. Is that enough? Well, no.
00:25:44.049 --> 00:25:51.229
You promised this guy with, you know, you essentially promised Strider and you're
00:25:51.229 --> 00:25:55.669
giving us a bouncer as opposed to the king that will.
00:25:55.669 --> 00:26:00.482
His name is Jeff, and he is the champion of biscuits in the tavern.
00:26:00.615 --> 00:26:05.549
The thing is, that alone is, okay, I want, what is a champion of biscuits?
00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:15.249
So there is a meat to that, that is not understood, or that is simply that if
00:26:15.249 --> 00:26:19.541
you attempt to be funny, it's like, hey, I want the next joke.
00:26:20.749 --> 00:26:25.489
Keep it going. Yeah, that if you look at, and this is something that I often
00:26:25.489 --> 00:26:33.979
reference, if you look at Endgame, the Marvel movie, every big plot point is a joke. Okay.
00:26:36.305 --> 00:26:41.495
Trying to go through them here. Okay, so in the last fight, right,
00:26:41.495 --> 00:26:48.411
I said, it's not a problem, but the major, major developments in the fight at the end are jokes.
00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:52.961
The, when, I'll go in reverse order if I remember correctly.
00:26:53.461 --> 00:26:57.950
The, when, when Stark snaps his finger, what's his line?
00:26:58.275 --> 00:27:01.485
I am Iron Man. Which was the joke at the end of Iron Man 1. Yeah.
00:27:02.188 --> 00:27:08.705
When, when, Thor is fighting Thanos although was it was that not just in response
00:27:08.705 --> 00:27:12.492
to Thanos saying I am inevitable yes but it was a joke yeah,
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:17.865
it was a joke yeah yeah it doesn't matter it was a callback to the joke at the
00:27:17.865 --> 00:27:22.885
end of the thing when when Thanos is fighting Thor when the so when the three
00:27:22.885 --> 00:27:26.235
of them have fighted initially Captain America's next to the side Stark's next
00:27:26.235 --> 00:27:27.920
to the side and it's Thor on Thanos,
00:27:28.625 --> 00:27:31.706
and he's got both Mjolnir and he's got Stormbringer and,
00:27:32.925 --> 00:27:38.330
Stormbreaker Stormbreaker and he has Molnir gets knocked to the side and.
00:27:40.419 --> 00:27:43.092
The stormbreaker is being pushed into his chest. What happens?
00:27:43.819 --> 00:27:46.399
Captain America picks up the hammer.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:52.011
And throws it at the back of him. And Thor goes, I knew it. Yes. Where's that from?
00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:58.513
That's from Age of Ultron. Which was? Which was? A joke. A joke.
00:27:59.757 --> 00:28:04.448
That it moved a tiny amount. Yeah. Caused him to go, shit.
00:28:05.022 --> 00:28:10.159
It wasn't, I know it. It was a joke. Yeah. when just before the final of the
00:28:10.159 --> 00:28:12.159
big lineup happens where it's
00:28:12.159 --> 00:28:16.589
going to be all of Thanos' forces against Captain America he's just he,
00:28:17.476 --> 00:28:22.319
straps on the half of the shield you know whatever like the cut in his arm he's
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:27.369
like he's he's inches away from saying I can do this all day which again is
00:28:27.369 --> 00:28:31.414
a joke but they don't use it because they use it as a different part of the thing.
00:28:33.179 --> 00:28:38.969
What's the line that starts the big surge of characters coming in on your left
00:28:38.969 --> 00:28:44.057
on your left which is a joke from from Winter Soldier Winter Soldier yeah,
00:28:45.073 --> 00:28:48.199
all of them are jokes yeah they're all jokes,
00:28:49.322 --> 00:28:54.939
and this is the the crux of the matter of why what Doomsday's gonna suck why
00:28:54.939 --> 00:28:57.159
all the rest of the movies are sucking is that they,
00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:01.679
the Russo brothers essentially emptied out the option box they built all these
00:29:01.679 --> 00:29:05.069
different movies and then they went along and they took bits out of it went
00:29:05.069 --> 00:29:08.339
okay let's sprinkle in here and then delivered one.
00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:11.209
It's like, callback, callback, callback, callback, callback.
00:29:11.209 --> 00:29:14.154
All we want is callbacks. Remember the thing you saw?
00:29:14.299 --> 00:29:17.410
The nostalgia. We're doing that again except in a different way.
00:29:18.399 --> 00:29:19.285
And those things...
00:29:20.337 --> 00:29:24.870
Living through those movies, coming to the end of Endgame and going, yep, I accept it.
00:29:26.021 --> 00:29:30.246
I will welcome this nostalgia because they went along and they built,
00:29:30.913 --> 00:29:32.347
they constructed these two pieces.
00:29:32.603 --> 00:29:38.491
These things are jokes, but you could also say that they are reference points between characters.
00:29:39.464 --> 00:29:46.566
That Thor saw him going, almost picking up Mjolnir. That Sam and Steve had a
00:29:46.699 --> 00:29:50.542
decent relationship and that was the ignition point for that relationship was,
00:29:51.030 --> 00:29:52.406
on your left. On your left.
00:29:53.282 --> 00:29:59.751
The fact that he was coming back to save to save with everyone else that moment
00:29:59.751 --> 00:30:06.354
of yeah, you have that fist bumping moment because of the things that have built up over time.
00:30:06.772 --> 00:30:12.711
You do not have that with Doomsday. You do not have with all these other these
00:30:12.711 --> 00:30:16.701
franchise and because there's no establishment anymore.
00:30:17.081 --> 00:30:18.963
They feel they want to skip to the end.
00:30:19.821 --> 00:30:24.721
Yeah, TikTok generation. Yeah. They want to go, this is, you want the big thing?
00:30:24.721 --> 00:30:28.291
We don't have time to build up a character properly.
00:30:28.943 --> 00:30:32.141
So that's too bad for everybody that's watching. We're just going to give you,
00:30:32.621 --> 00:30:36.147
what we give you. But the problem is they're still delivering three-hour movies. Yeah.
00:30:36.617 --> 00:30:39.154
So they're still going, we want you to come in.
00:30:39.641 --> 00:30:42.608
We want you to watch this three-hour movie. It's like.
00:30:44.131 --> 00:30:48.876
Why yeah what are you delivering to us in this three-hour movie except for you're
00:30:48.876 --> 00:30:52.536
telling us that there's only 64 different characters everyone's gonna have two minutes
00:30:52.809 --> 00:30:57.756
of screen time maybe or nine or two each or like in dial of destiny for example
00:30:57.756 --> 00:31:01.736
they're like oh yeah i get to see my beloved indiana jones doing adventures
00:31:01.736 --> 00:31:03.953
again great i'm in i'm going to that movie
00:31:04.270 --> 00:31:06.963
and as i'm not what the hell is this crap,
00:31:07.492 --> 00:31:10.401
why like what what am i doing here like,
00:31:11.175 --> 00:31:13.334
i have no issue with phoebe waller bridge.
00:31:15.436 --> 00:31:20.817
But i mean i think i think it was poor casting yeah for that particular role sure,
00:31:21.524 --> 00:31:26.356
but yeah you're just thinking this is going against everything i was promised
00:31:26.356 --> 00:31:31.816
by the fact this is true also yeah yeah but the fact it's another indiana jones movie and you know,
00:31:33.128 --> 00:31:38.774
if the the the crystal skull or whatever the hell that previous movie was yeah
00:31:38.988 --> 00:31:42.835
of kingdom of the crystal skull yeah um you should know,
00:31:43.596 --> 00:31:48.036
going into dial of destiny what they've already done in in the crystal skull
00:31:48.036 --> 00:31:52.786
the kingdom of the crystal skull which was kind of along those lines of indiana
00:31:52.786 --> 00:31:55.438
jones is the the butt of the joke yes,
00:31:56.247 --> 00:32:02.004
and why why did you need to make him the butt of the joke he's a great character,
00:32:02.446 --> 00:32:09.806
great three movies now you have him like oh you're too old and you're too you don't have it anymore.
00:32:10.091 --> 00:32:16.136
You're not good enough to be, like, I suppose Shia LaBeouf would have been going
00:32:16.136 --> 00:32:18.456
forward had that been the plan.
00:32:18.796 --> 00:32:21.786
He would have, because he gets the hat at the end and there was all this kind
00:32:21.786 --> 00:32:25.423
of, you know, this symbolism of perhaps he's going to,
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:30.179
be an archaeologist and follow in his father's footsteps and Marion and Indy
00:32:30.179 --> 00:32:33.879
are going to live happily ever after and we're going to follow Shia LaBeouf.
00:32:34.454 --> 00:32:37.429
Maybe a call back to Indy or getting them to help with something.
00:32:37.429 --> 00:32:40.869
In the same way Sean Comrie was only in a few scenes.
00:32:42.552 --> 00:32:47.370
Essentially, he would stand in the background as Harrison Ford did the foreground stuff.
00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:52.169
Absolutely. Or Shia LaBeouf could have been, like, maybe Harrison Ford's Indiana
00:32:52.169 --> 00:32:53.329
Jones went missing again.
00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:58.969
Sure, sure. They could do something like, who knows what the plan was,
00:33:00.005 --> 00:33:04.920
but whatever the plan was, it didn't need to make Indiana Jones pathetic.
00:33:05.797 --> 00:33:10.912
Absolutely. And again, this comes down to the deconstruction versus reconstruction. Yeah.
00:33:12.138 --> 00:33:13.763
If you are going to spend time.
00:33:16.669 --> 00:33:21.487
You have to give us a reason for the next character. Yeah.
00:33:22.102 --> 00:33:26.061
For this person is good because this person has our interest,
00:33:26.566 --> 00:33:29.596
not because they're the opposite of the person who has gone before,
00:33:29.887 --> 00:33:34.650
not because you're bringing the dial down and, well, he was a nine,
00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:39.273
but he's depressed and old now, so he's a four. So this guy who's a five is clearly better.
00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:43.310
It's also ageist, if nothing else. At its very core, it's like,
00:33:43.310 --> 00:33:44.945
old people are crap at everything.
00:33:45.177 --> 00:33:50.240
Well, have you met old people these days? Or is it the drivers I encounter?
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.900
Yeah, but Indiana Jones isn't a normal person. Very true.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:00.900
Luke Skywalker isn't a normal person. Oh, no, I agree. But I'm saying that there
00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:04.960
is definite reason why you want to.
00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:12.009
I can understand the impetus of I want to take the the Indiana Jones franchise
00:34:12.375 --> 00:34:15.690
and bring it to a new generation. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. 100%.
00:34:16.015 --> 00:34:22.220
I understand why they have been trying and failing to move it across the Star
00:34:22.220 --> 00:34:24.101
Wars generation and move it into the next generation.
00:34:26.908 --> 00:34:31.560
They have no interest in building the next. Like, if you look at,
00:34:32.348 --> 00:34:38.021
name a character have you watched enough of the Star Wars the Star Wars shows,
00:34:39.355 --> 00:34:46.096
I haven't seen the Acolyte. Okay. I haven't seen the pirate one with the bunch of kids and Jude Law.
00:34:46.445 --> 00:34:48.758
Okay. Whatever that's called. Skeleton Crew. Yeah.
00:34:50.060 --> 00:34:52.851
Did you see Obi-Wan? Saw Obi-Wan, yeah. Okay.
00:34:54.043 --> 00:34:57.364
Did you see Ahsoka? Yes. Okay. So?
00:34:57.996 --> 00:35:02.087
Saw Rebels when it was out. The Rebels? The animated. Oh, yeah, Rebels. Okay.
00:35:03.139 --> 00:35:09.356
Over the course, they have put out five, six, seven, eight different TV shows. Yeah.
00:35:09.842 --> 00:35:17.483
I can count one character Ahsoka no one character because Ahsoka existed beforehand
00:35:17.483 --> 00:35:22.423
yeah okay oh one new character one new character yeah that is the,
00:35:23.763 --> 00:35:26.944
Moses Ingram character from from Obi-Wan,
00:35:28.175 --> 00:35:32.743
her character the inquisitor the black actress okay if they had treated her
00:35:32.743 --> 00:35:39.854
about but she she's a character who survived to the end of that show she walks off Yeah.
00:35:41.359 --> 00:35:44.670
If they had treated her better, if they had given her a better show,
00:35:44.670 --> 00:35:46.363
if they had made the show about her.
00:35:48.682 --> 00:35:52.770
Then, and took her through the kind of whole, she goes to the dark side and
00:35:52.770 --> 00:35:58.230
comes out and now, maybe not fully into the light, but definitely still a conflicted character. Yeah.
00:35:58.770 --> 00:36:05.928
Okay. I could imagine her walking into a room, walking into the chamber of the Jedi,
00:36:06.515 --> 00:36:13.140
walking to a round table kind of place where Skywalker's there with his lightsaber
00:36:13.140 --> 00:36:15.470
in a little nice little slot in the round table.
00:36:15.958 --> 00:36:20.271
Ahsoka's to his left with her lightsaber, her pair of lightsabers in two little slots there.
00:36:20.538 --> 00:36:24.091
And, what was her name? Reva.
00:36:24.588 --> 00:36:28.152
Put her new lightsaber because you lost your in a slot.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:31.960
And then suddenly you have three characters going, this is the,
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:35.093
we're going to establish a new council. Yeah.
00:36:36.841 --> 00:36:39.860
They should have been working towards that scene. Yeah.
00:36:40.404 --> 00:36:45.080
Everything they do whether it be Mandalorian whether it be Ahsoka whether it
00:36:45.080 --> 00:36:49.390
be Obi-Wan whether it be anything everything they do should have been working
00:36:49.390 --> 00:36:52.397
towards building and creating new characters,
00:36:53.260 --> 00:36:59.030
for that one scene to happen because from that one scene it explodes yeah you
00:36:59.030 --> 00:37:02.383
now have so what do you want to do imagine you have,
00:37:03.346 --> 00:37:08.510
say seven characters you have your you have your Dwayne you have your that could
00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:11.758
also be like, part of the focus of that new,
00:37:12.560 --> 00:37:17.870
whether it's movies or TV show, is the, you know, meeting and acquiring,
00:37:17.870 --> 00:37:24.006
recruiting, building the council, you know, maybe re-establishing. You do it subtly.
00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:32.670
You do it, rather than saying, this is our plan, you say, in your own studio,
00:37:32.670 --> 00:37:34.912
in the writer's room, go, we're doing this.
00:37:35.121 --> 00:37:38.840
Okay. Pitch us on putting people together. Now, Thank you.
00:37:40.571 --> 00:37:45.582
On any type of force user you want to bring them together to put into that room.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:51.791
I want a list, and I want a list of six other characters that can work with
00:37:52.151 --> 00:37:55.591
Skywalker of whatever type personality you want.
00:37:56.032 --> 00:37:59.571
The darker, the stranger, the sinister,
00:38:00.111 --> 00:38:04.921
as in sinister rather than darker, but any type, someone who has survived since
00:38:04.921 --> 00:38:09.981
the Empire, or someone who has just come along as the plucky new guy or the
00:38:09.981 --> 00:38:13.600
old wizard witch who has managed to survive this amount of time.
00:38:14.742 --> 00:38:18.391
The person who is actually Dooku's great, great, great grandson.
00:38:18.391 --> 00:38:21.791
And don't forget some, like, four-year-old, because that's...
00:38:21.891 --> 00:38:24.911
No, no, no, I'm only joking, but...
00:38:25.351 --> 00:38:30.361
That's my point, is that once you have this established, then where do you go?
00:38:30.773 --> 00:38:34.271
You have your four-year-olds in that you have announced new school.
00:38:34.731 --> 00:38:37.721
Who of those seven becomes the new, when was the new, the new,
00:38:37.721 --> 00:38:41.826
I see, prime minister, not prime minister, but principal out of school. Yeah.
00:38:42.180 --> 00:38:46.141
You have your Star Trek Academy. You do. You have your, you have your Jedi Academy.
00:38:46.141 --> 00:38:50.711
You have your fresh start and your, your, your initial reconstruction is what
00:38:50.711 --> 00:38:53.622
you're doing. I'm talking, no, I'm talking about continuing the construction.
00:38:54.138 --> 00:38:57.418
I'm talking about you build new characters.
00:38:57.674 --> 00:39:01.531
You have a character who arrives there, you know, the eighth character who's
00:39:01.531 --> 00:39:04.233
there who doesn't have a lightsaber. Why? They're not a Jedi. Yeah.
00:39:04.483 --> 00:39:08.146
Okay. They may be force sensitive they may not but they're still going,
00:39:08.848 --> 00:39:13.208
what are we going to do now yeah I think this is a fucking bad idea but but,
00:39:13.651 --> 00:39:18.151
it's it's essentially it's the it's the pilot it's the it's the the the,
00:39:18.831 --> 00:39:23.995
brash pilot make him make him her make whoever you want to make make them yeah
00:39:24.215 --> 00:39:25.655
does not it does not matter well,
00:39:26.531 --> 00:39:30.091
you know chuck in a former bounty hunter in there because everyone loves bounty hunters yeah.
00:39:31.389 --> 00:39:37.676
Sure, well, the reason why I'm limiting it is, again, I'm building from an Orpi background. Yeah.
00:39:37.903 --> 00:39:43.733
That you have your, no matter what, set of, if you take any party,
00:39:43.733 --> 00:39:47.249
you're going to have a solid group of... Your wizard, your rogue, your paladin.
00:39:47.376 --> 00:39:49.788
Yeah, and then you're going to have a throw-in.
00:39:49.974 --> 00:39:53.642
You're going to have a person who doesn't really match with everyone else.
00:39:54.130 --> 00:39:57.944
That's often the most well-loved character, or if you look at,
00:39:58.530 --> 00:40:03.248
well-constructed and found friends, and family of other TV shows,
00:40:03.735 --> 00:40:06.803
you have Spike, you have Giles, you have the characters, and you have the kids
00:40:06.803 --> 00:40:10.003
being the centrals, and then you have Giles and you have Angel and you have,
00:40:10.003 --> 00:40:12.961
well, Angel kind of fits in with the kids, but you have Spike and you have Giles
00:40:13.211 --> 00:40:15.132
who don't really fit in, but they're functions of...
00:40:15.318 --> 00:40:19.333
Even in the Angel show where you had Lorne and you had...
00:40:20.193 --> 00:40:23.187
I'm starting to forget all the character names, but you had Cordelia,
00:40:23.628 --> 00:40:28.604
you had Angel, you had Lorne, you had the demon, you had Doyle,
00:40:28.796 --> 00:40:31.513
the half-demon, the Irish guy, Fred, yeah, So
00:40:31.863 --> 00:40:34.104
And then Wesley, not Wesley. Wesley, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Wesley.
00:40:34.601 --> 00:40:39.432
So yeah, you have, but you look at the group and they are mismatched.
00:40:39.879 --> 00:40:44.348
So you essentially, you have, they are linked by some facets,
00:40:44.860 --> 00:40:46.019
but the rest are mismatched.
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:50.704
So you then have, from there, you go, okay, these are the core group and then,
00:40:51.539 --> 00:40:54.629
they all disappear off and they do all their TV shows. They do all their individual
00:40:54.629 --> 00:40:58.419
movies. And what's the big movie? They come back together again.
00:40:59.979 --> 00:41:04.749
You have them walking into a room. were walking the revengers you yes don't
00:41:04.749 --> 00:41:08.429
it's it's not a it's not a it's something to be laughed off you actually go
00:41:08.429 --> 00:41:14.019
along and you and you have the scene from from that right where you have when when all of them go,
00:41:14.799 --> 00:41:18.931
and they activate their lightsabers all these seven guys like guys girls whatever,
00:41:19.529 --> 00:41:22.579
adding all characters cracking open their lightsabers,
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:27.739
when you see that the purple next the blue next to you know you see all the
00:41:27.739 --> 00:41:31.409
different colors yes and you go that one that one there see the blue one that's
00:41:31.409 --> 00:41:33.899
my one i like that one oh really i like the purple one the purple,
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:38.259
but i i like the gold one too and you're talking about keraline crystals and
00:41:38.259 --> 00:41:43.079
you're talking about and you suddenly have the thing where this is a story,
00:41:44.319 --> 00:41:46.797
that you are it's not just the story you're it's you have your favorite yeah
00:41:47.116 --> 00:41:50.639
rather than the writer saying this is your favorite if you do not like this
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:55.005
person you're a racist yeah if you do not like this person you're a sexist you
00:41:55.138 --> 00:41:57.054
have an establishment of these.
00:41:58.979 --> 00:42:02.061
Is that just kind of endemic of,
00:42:02.754 --> 00:42:07.344
like the society today is like that attitude of if you're not one,
00:42:07.824 --> 00:42:10.844
if you're, you're a one or a zero, if you're not one, you're zero.
00:42:10.844 --> 00:42:13.464
If you're not zero, you're one, you know? Oh yeah. It's like,
00:42:13.924 --> 00:42:16.914
you know, you have to like what we're telling you. Like if you don't,
00:42:16.914 --> 00:42:18.310
then you're all these bad things.
00:42:18.786 --> 00:42:22.614
You know, you, you only don't like them because, and you are the most extreme
00:42:22.614 --> 00:42:26.404
version of that. Like you don't like a female character. That's cause you're
00:42:26.404 --> 00:42:29.913
misogynistic and chauvinistic and you hate women.
00:42:30.112 --> 00:42:35.376
And you're like, where is this extremist mentality coming from?
00:42:35.656 --> 00:42:43.834
And on top of that, is that affecting everyone's writing in these TV shows and
00:42:43.834 --> 00:42:48.784
movies? Is it a case of, are they cowed by the labeling?
00:42:49.143 --> 00:42:55.804
Are they cowed by the fear of being, you know, if you don't put a female character
00:42:55.804 --> 00:42:59.084
in here, everyone will call you misogynistic and chauvinistic?
00:42:59.824 --> 00:43:05.534
Yes, that's why I think that some of these writers are better than they are,
00:43:05.534 --> 00:43:07.864
or better than their writing at the moment.
00:43:08.178 --> 00:43:19.355
That they are being forced to conform to a certain, it's almost like a neo-McCarthyism.
00:43:20.511 --> 00:43:24.514
They want to go on the blacklist. Yeah, because if you don't write this way,
00:43:24.514 --> 00:43:27.124
you're not getting, you know.
00:43:27.993 --> 00:43:31.234
And by the way, the blacklist was something it was actually called and not,
00:43:31.234 --> 00:43:33.784
I don't, you know, here I go.
00:43:34.104 --> 00:43:41.311
Yeah. And rightly so, it's a, how can I express this succinctly? Yeah.
00:43:42.714 --> 00:43:47.214
The writers who managed to get through it, the ones who managed to express things
00:43:47.214 --> 00:43:49.451
well, they're the rarity.
00:43:50.043 --> 00:43:55.414
That they managed to go, like, you can mention Nolan, you can mention different
00:43:55.414 --> 00:44:02.810
writers who have managed to weave their way through and deliver... Dodging the raindrops.
00:44:04.354 --> 00:44:11.537
So to speak. Delivering a story while also delivering what Hollywood appears to want.
00:44:12.673 --> 00:44:21.894
That it is a case that they it's almost like you're dealing with an old.
00:44:26.054 --> 00:44:29.754
Myopic person in a wheelchair they can't see very well but I want you to do
00:44:29.754 --> 00:44:34.014
this and I want you to do that and you go yeah I've done this I've done this other oh that's grand,
00:44:34.594 --> 00:44:38.515
and they can't see past their own they can't see past beyond their own wishes,
00:44:39.084 --> 00:44:42.184
so you just spend time going yeah I'm going to spend the rest of my time doing
00:44:42.184 --> 00:44:45.501
everything I fucking want. I'm delivering for you.
00:44:46.830 --> 00:44:49.354
You want to make sure that we have representation. Absolutely,
00:44:49.354 --> 00:44:50.288
I want representation too.
00:44:51.492 --> 00:44:55.812
But I'm not going to make it my main deal. Like that historically,
00:44:56.452 --> 00:45:03.052
pre-social media, pre-even internet, people wrote what they wanted, it seemed.
00:45:03.372 --> 00:45:07.872
No, I would say that there's always been a There's a censor board.
00:45:08.352 --> 00:45:13.165
A directive of sorts, but I would say that... There is a comic book code, for example.
00:45:13.778 --> 00:45:18.200
Yes, but that was self-deployed, essentially.
00:45:18.982 --> 00:45:24.473
I would say that because we you know we can name several writers who've moved from,
00:45:25.146 --> 00:45:30.120
comic book into writing horror into writing thriller and writer sci-fi who have
00:45:30.347 --> 00:45:35.662
moved across the genres yeah who have have watched who have have written a vastly
00:45:35.662 --> 00:45:36.663
different types of things,
00:45:37.363 --> 00:45:40.777
and they have been able to do so because the,
00:45:41.552 --> 00:45:48.202
the market was was not one thing okay and that's why you have things like this
00:45:48.202 --> 00:45:52.109
this year especially with things like Backrooms with Obsession that.
00:45:53.217 --> 00:46:00.612
The reaction is so profound that they're going well we need to put India Navarro,
00:46:01.192 --> 00:46:07.145
into different things she's great and all and I wish her well and I think that her step into,
00:46:08.092 --> 00:46:12.723
Rogue's Shoes may be a mistake but because apparently she decided not to do
00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:20.182
Heat 2 with DiCaprio and Christian Bale and I'm thinking Heat 2 he too but with
00:46:20.182 --> 00:46:22.709
with bale and with dicaprio okay,
00:46:23.533 --> 00:46:30.660
any movie with with dicaprio and christian bale yeah will be far fucking better
00:46:30.904 --> 00:46:36.021
than anything marvel puts out it will be longer it'll be longer much more receipt
00:46:36.271 --> 00:46:37.361
that and a few things that,
00:46:38.332 --> 00:46:41.942
okay she went for the big paycheck fan let her have the big paycheck but i would
00:46:41.942 --> 00:46:47.052
have i would have kept my powder dry i went okay do a few because she's still
00:46:47.052 --> 00:46:51.158
going to get you know she sure would have been paid a fuck ton for those two movies,
00:46:52.647 --> 00:46:58.202
So, you know, they learned the wrong mistake. We're getting a matchbox movie. Yeah.
00:46:59.995 --> 00:47:06.918
They're not learning from Barbie, which was, if you like it or not, a movie about feminism.
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.645
Yeah. Whether or not you think it was a good movie, whether you think it was
00:47:10.645 --> 00:47:14.367
a satire, whatever you think about it, it was a successful movie. Mm-hmm.
00:47:15.006 --> 00:47:18.762
And instead of learning from it, going, let's get an auteur like Greta Gerwig,
00:47:19.175 --> 00:47:23.806
let's give her control, let's give her a fucking ton of money and let her run with it.
00:47:24.680 --> 00:47:28.821
Instead of doing that, they went along and made a matchbox movie. I see.
00:47:30.254 --> 00:47:36.373
It's not understanding what they do anymore and not suffering the consequences.
00:47:37.332 --> 00:47:41.005
Well, that's it, isn't it? The big budgets keep coming. It's not coming from
00:47:41.005 --> 00:47:44.800
Amazon. It's coming from Disney. If it's not coming from Wider Dam, it's Netflix.
00:47:46.375 --> 00:47:53.017
And they're ultimately terrible movies. Yeah. that the it's become a producer's
00:47:53.285 --> 00:47:59.294
field not a writer's field so I would tend to agree that that,
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:04.685
perhaps in the in years gone by their the movies were better but I'd only say
00:48:04.685 --> 00:48:10.220
that there was more of them that like I couldn't list off 10 or 12 being movies
00:48:10.441 --> 00:48:13.395
yeah or what we consider being movies which were,
00:48:14.059 --> 00:48:18.593
wonderful that I would happily sit down and watch again I can't think of any
00:48:18.999 --> 00:48:24.567
Netflix movie that has come out which maybe have had three to four times the size of the budget,
00:48:25.466 --> 00:48:29.095
that would I'd still consider a B movie because of the quality of it that I'd
00:48:29.095 --> 00:48:34.209
ever want to watch again that I'd want to go out and find DVD the watchability
00:48:34.615 --> 00:48:40.047
factor is something alright to consider but like I couldn't think of,
00:48:41.255 --> 00:48:45.975
I'd be the same as that I can't think of a Netflix movie that I'd go just throw
00:48:45.975 --> 00:48:49.172
that on nothing to do throw that one on love watching it yeah.
00:48:51.180 --> 00:48:56.182
There's no name in my head for that movie. I just don't have one.
00:48:57.820 --> 00:49:01.510
We're recording this as about nine o'clock at night. I could go home now and
00:49:01.510 --> 00:49:06.072
I could brew some popcorn and put on a two-hour movie, watch it till midnight,
00:49:06.995 --> 00:49:10.734
and there'd be a list of movies that I could go through and go, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:49:10.898 --> 00:49:15.079
And none of them, and all of them existed before COVID.
00:49:15.768 --> 00:49:21.280
Yeah. Probably all of them existed maybe before 2000. Well, they are. I don't know.
00:49:22.100 --> 00:49:26.390
There's been some good movies since then. So it's not saying that they're not created anymore.
00:49:27.330 --> 00:49:31.997
But they're outliers. Yes. And to wheel back to the initial idea is that.
00:49:34.140 --> 00:49:37.431
It's almost like, and this is why I'm saying the producer being the problem,
00:49:37.941 --> 00:49:44.359
it's that the producer will be involved in the pitch. Yeah.
00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:49.648
To get the monies. and once the pitch happens then that's it,
00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:56.262
don't stray exactly don't walk don't get a go away from it so it's a case of,
00:49:56.802 --> 00:50:02.040
we want to do this movie and to establish it,
00:50:02.762 --> 00:50:09.120
to create a to establish the characters we're going to assume that we're going
00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:10.840
to do the bare barest minimum,
00:50:11.564 --> 00:50:15.592
to establish the characters we're going to say oh you've seen this movie before with this person,
00:50:16.423 --> 00:50:20.311
if you look at all these Netflix movies they all have pretty big names attached
00:50:20.450 --> 00:50:23.069
or at least names that you people you recognize yeah yeah,
00:50:24.140 --> 00:50:29.335
decent enough actors but they're not given anything to do like there was a apparently
00:50:29.335 --> 00:50:32.699
there was a movie with Anthony Mackie which as a period piece.
00:50:33.785 --> 00:50:40.705
It just disappeared it cost 115 million or something and it was just gone in in in,
00:50:41.437 --> 00:50:45.065
like because I set my brain on that task to try and come up with a movie that
00:50:45.505 --> 00:50:50.441
I'd watch again from Netflix as we were talking I was listening to you but I was also,
00:50:51.224 --> 00:50:56.595
sub-function of brain but But I think, and I have watched it more than once,
00:50:56.595 --> 00:51:00.286
is The Extraction, which Chris Hemsworth. Chris Hemsworth. Yes.
00:51:01.185 --> 00:51:04.355
So there's one. Yeah, The Extraction and Extraction 2. Have you watched Extraction
00:51:04.355 --> 00:51:07.037
2? Yeah, I have. Which is basically a game.
00:51:07.525 --> 00:51:10.265
It's a computer game. A computer game. It's not as good as the first game.
00:51:10.265 --> 00:51:12.585
No, but the prison scene and.
00:51:15.045 --> 00:51:17.785
The train against the helicopter, they're just computer games.
00:51:17.785 --> 00:51:19.565
They're PS2 plots. Yeah.
00:51:20.505 --> 00:51:24.897
And for just bare action B-movie plots, sure.
00:51:27.336 --> 00:51:32.427
Edge of the seat stuff. I thought, yeah. It was grand. But again, name is character.
00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:41.905
Thank you. John, big arms, blonde hair? John, big arms, big muscles. So it is a soldier B.
00:51:42.885 --> 00:51:50.665
To wind us all together that you have a bunch of new things which want to be
00:51:50.665 --> 00:51:55.808
the old thing without putting any of the work in I want to shine off,
00:51:56.278 --> 00:52:01.590
the old thing yeah without putting the work in to create the new thing,
00:52:02.147 --> 00:52:06.689
skip to the end writing yeah and indeed if you look at even something like,
00:52:08.483 --> 00:52:13.898
TNG. Yeah. The Next Generation. It took the death of Gene Roddenberry,
00:52:14.374 --> 00:52:17.450
arguably, for that to escape his orbit.
00:52:17.770 --> 00:52:21.810
Okay. If you look at the first, especially the first season, it was shit.
00:52:22.217 --> 00:52:25.288
It was trying to be TOS. Yeah, yeah.
00:52:25.538 --> 00:52:31.900
But you do get that vibe. But I always thought perhaps that was just the way
00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:33.620
of, see, it's not that different.
00:52:33.818 --> 00:52:40.724
It's don't you know as in we all know you love kirk and spock and mccoy and everybody else,
00:52:41.312 --> 00:52:45.800
here's something new don't hate it see it's kind of the same that's that's the
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:49.540
vibe i thought that maybe that's what they were going for which is the which
00:52:49.540 --> 00:52:53.260
is exactly the same if you're talking about the.
00:52:54.260 --> 00:52:59.760
The deconstruction of of um harrison ford or sorry indiana jones because you're,
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:05.013
they're saying the exact same thing with the Waller Bridger character saying see see,
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:10.289
she's kind of the same kind of the same yeah or Rey see she's kind of the same,
00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:12.480
she does the same stuff but the
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:16.529
difference in the next generation was they weren't looking back and going,
00:53:17.180 --> 00:53:23.510
Kirk was an idiot you know I remember a way Kirk you know made terrible mistakes
00:53:23.510 --> 00:53:26.802
at some battle when he was an admiral you know they didn't they didn't have to,
00:53:27.458 --> 00:53:31.600
put the thumb on the heads they didn't deconstruct yeah They reconstructed.
00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:38.800
They constructed anew. Yeah. But it took the great, I don't know,
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:47.150
one of the, the galaxy camera, what they called it, for him to pass for season three, season four.
00:53:47.347 --> 00:53:51.280
So that's when the Borg hit. I think you had good episodes in that mess,
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:55.403
in that questionable mess there. You had Measure of Man.
00:53:55.706 --> 00:53:57.740
You had some really fucking solid work.
00:53:58.623 --> 00:54:01.410
Snowgrass's script is just, Fucking fantastic.
00:54:02.853 --> 00:54:06.743
So, but you then had, I think you had forgotten plots as well.
00:54:06.743 --> 00:54:10.693
You had the creatures who sent a signal out that the things that were inside
00:54:10.693 --> 00:54:14.433
the people, they're all animals. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember that.
00:54:14.433 --> 00:54:15.526
But that was, that was season two.
00:54:16.420 --> 00:54:20.858
So that was a forgotten plot. They, they. Everyone was like, that's over.
00:54:21.050 --> 00:54:24.203
But they, essentially, they came from the same location that the Borg came from.
00:54:24.203 --> 00:54:27.545
They only will come from. Yeah. So they, they changed things around.
00:54:28.993 --> 00:54:32.279
Uh, Brandon Braga and co made a better show. Yeah. Okay.
00:54:32.761 --> 00:54:37.057
But it was, they were allowed to construct the thing that was new. Yeah.
00:54:37.537 --> 00:54:40.913
Without the need to put down everything that came before it.
00:54:41.573 --> 00:54:46.694
With, to build on top of. Yeah. As in, to stand on the shoulders of giants. Yeah.
00:54:47.250 --> 00:54:50.923
Instead of replacing them. Instead of saying the giants were actually midgets
00:54:50.923 --> 00:54:53.381
and. Exactly so. Yeah, they, yeah.
00:54:54.409 --> 00:54:54.797
So
00:54:56.849 --> 00:55:02.679
Whenever I'm writing these days, like, say, take Quantumancy, for instance.
00:55:03.428 --> 00:55:07.989
Quantumancy starts off with a destruction, a point of destruction. Yeah.
00:55:08.169 --> 00:55:14.117
October 13th, 2003, technology, science ends. Magic comes back.
00:55:14.756 --> 00:55:20.289
It is now, and the first book jumps, depending on which timeline you're looking
00:55:20.289 --> 00:55:22.768
at, it takes from that point all the way up to 2018.
00:55:22.901 --> 00:55:30.208
So it jumps through 15 years yeah by the time we're into what book four we're at i think 2019 2020,
00:55:31.114 --> 00:55:36.859
so it slowed down the progress of time but it's 20 years on and and from there
00:55:36.859 --> 00:55:44.494
we are we went from villages who are scared of things outside their walls to statewide,
00:55:45.329 --> 00:55:49.469
kingdoms yeah it's an excellent period of time to do that though because 20
00:55:49.469 --> 00:55:54.009
years you still have people that remember the old world yep that know what,
00:55:54.749 --> 00:55:58.929
modernity was that they know who you know,
00:55:59.569 --> 00:56:05.249
famous people were and why and they knew how all this stuff happened and then
00:56:05.249 --> 00:56:10.289
it just went away and now they're adapting to live in this new reality yeah so,
00:56:11.249 --> 00:56:15.499
it's a great time period to do it of as opposed to like hundreds of years later
00:56:15.499 --> 00:56:19.999
which it wouldn't make any like yeah they wouldn't be irrelevant yeah actually
00:56:19.999 --> 00:56:21.749
the memory is very important.
00:56:22.789 --> 00:56:24.427
That all the characters.
00:56:27.242 --> 00:56:28.169
Even Dani, who is,
00:56:30.609 --> 00:56:38.582
in her early 20s now, or she started off in 2018, I think she was 21, 22.
00:56:38.930 --> 00:56:44.600
So she was a toddler, essentially, when the fall happens.
00:56:45.157 --> 00:56:47.969
That even she, thanks to her...
00:56:51.262 --> 00:56:56.502
Thanks to her abilities, she's seeing things that are beyond her lifespan.
00:56:56.502 --> 00:56:58.799
Yeah. And she can see the differences.
00:56:59.498 --> 00:57:07.380
And it is important to show those differences, because I'd almost say it's a trick.
00:57:08.462 --> 00:57:10.223
From my point of view, it's like saying that,
00:57:13.542 --> 00:57:21.942
having a dwarf with a New York accent, or having a, talking about getting bagels on Fifth Street,
00:57:24.129 --> 00:57:27.779
you have established the, you have not only.
00:57:31.447 --> 00:57:36.892
You have created in just those very, very few words an entire character.
00:57:37.422 --> 00:57:41.796
You don't have to go any deeper than that. It's like the reader understands
00:57:42.115 --> 00:57:47.682
that this person used to be in this situation, and now in this situation and their own,
00:57:48.382 --> 00:57:52.382
their own imagination are connecting the dots going well what could oh so many
00:57:52.382 --> 00:57:55.972
things and essentially you are and they are not,
00:57:57.383 --> 00:58:01.582
fixating them onto your story they're allowing going okay I want to see what
00:58:01.582 --> 00:58:03.102
happens but there's so many good things,
00:58:04.802 --> 00:58:12.726
it is a it's allowing a the reader to kind of enjoy the the spectacle of change,
00:58:13.591 --> 00:58:19.222
well we have deconstructed and we have reconstructed and i think there's uh
00:58:19.222 --> 00:58:22.983
not a hell of a lot more to say on the topic at the moment except,
00:58:23.878 --> 00:58:25.660
keep watching the sky.