Episode 30 - When a Wizard Did It: The Problem with Placeholder Characters

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Welcome to Fictional Problems, the podcast where we discuss all things writing,
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in association with Speculative Fiction Ireland.
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On today's episode, we discuss the idea of placeholder characters,
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and the effect of presupposition of characters' abilities on the entertainment of the story.
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We talk about Mary Sue's, Gary Stu's, and the danger of readers feeling cheated
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in relation to character development.
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Join us.
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And welcome back to Fictional Problems, the podcast, no, it's not a prodcast,
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that's a totally different thing.
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The podcast, where we discuss all things writing. Myself, Gary J. Martin.
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And myself, A.R. McLevitt. Looking very confused. A prodcast,
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would that be one of those sex podcasts?
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Well, it's not this one, anyway. Call me daddy or one of those things. Am I ringing that right?
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If that's what people were expecting, they should. You've clicked the wrong button.
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Um it's on the other favorites on the other account you don't tell people yeah,
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so al we are going today to talk about i'm going to hand it over to you to,
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explain the topic of today's conversation sure so i guess placeholder characters
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yeah the characters that are there and you don't have to do any work to,
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on the character they just they're just right they're just there That might
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not be a great explanation, so I'll give you an example.
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The prime example. Sherlock Holmes.
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If you are reading a Sherlock Holmes novel, or especially an adaptation of Sherlock
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Holmes, or if you're watching it or whatnot, then,
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in the vast majority of the time, they don't bother showing you how the mystery was solved.
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All they need to say is, Sherlock Holmes figured it out. Yeah,
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it's like saying, a wizard did it. Exactly. It is,
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a device, a massive device which says, this person can't figure out whether,
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you gender swap them, whatever you do, he, she, it.
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Is the person who just figures it out. Sherlock Holmes famously hated by Sir
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Arthur Conan Doyle. At the end. Well, yeah.
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It's so much so that he decided to kill him.
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And then he got the Reichenbach Falls. And then brought him back.
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Yeah, seven years later or something like that, after enormous public pressure.
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Sure, sure. He actually went, oh, all right then.
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But I guess public pressure those days happened slower because it had to pen
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ship and, and, in fact, it was a telegraph.
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So a very slow public pressure. Didn't go viral on the internet.
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No, it didn't yet. Not yet.
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But the idea that you... So a good character to compare Holmes to would be Poirot.
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And in all of the stories, at least I should say all the stories that I've read
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and seen... Poirot. Of Hicule Poirot.
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You see him going through his process. He is said to be a great detective,
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but it's almost in each story he has to prove he's a great detective,
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in the adaptations of say Holmes whether it be kind of TV shows like Elementary
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they or even the Sherlock or the Moffat adaptation absolutely well the reason,
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I hesitate for that one is that they started off like,
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the Moffat Sherlock is a good example of them starting off saying look at that
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look at how he sees things yes so they spent time going this is how he's figuring
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them out then they abandoned that,
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and this went off half cocked and they didn't even.
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Indeed one of the one of the the.
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The clapbacks against that series was the Reichenbach idea where he killed himself,
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and he came back, and no explanation was given, it was just,
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it's Sherlock. Yeah, he just did it. Yeah, he could figure it out.
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He could conspire, he could do all this stuff, and it's just,
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no answer was given because, it's Sherlock.
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Yeah, so was it a case of, do you think perhaps that one of the mistakes made
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was that in the starting off, the first seasons,
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like you were saying, they weren't explaining his thought process,
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how he did, and did at some point, maybe someone went okay we've shown that,
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we'll take that for given so the audience don't want to see that they just want
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to see him solving crimes and they missed the trick of no the audience want
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to see him in his process they want to see him figuring it out they want,
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like that's why so many people enjoyed the first season sure and then they just,
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missed a trick and just made it a shorthand of Sherlock did it yeah,
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that seems to be what happened I would I would say yes that's could have been
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process that i remember at the end of scandal in scandal in braveria i think it's or,
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the one with their their version of iran adler he figured out he basically again,
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he he you see all his all his his process he could you see all things all these
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things everything's being figured out,
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and then the things that the audience aren't aware of,
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but it was like oh you can see why he thought about this yes because it's just
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one inch away i can i i could have figured that out,
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If given enough time, he just does it much quicker.
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But that episode ended with him saving her life. And it was a...
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No explanation for it, but people still liked that because it was him coming
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to the end and the hope of the two of them getting together at the end.
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The shippers, that's great. But that was a coda.
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It was the last moment of the overall, which everything else was explained. And that's great.
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So I think they took the wrong lesson from the end. I think so, yeah.
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That they went, either the audience doesn't need it Or, and this is my point
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in raising this as a topic, is that the writer couldn't figure it out. Ah, yes.
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That the writer wanted to go bigger and bigger and bigger. I think I was a fan
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of Moffat for a very, very long time.
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His contribution to Doctor Who is some of the best work that's ever been done in that franchise.
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And his first few seasons of Sherlock are also fantastic.
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But the yearning to get bigger and bigger and bigger perhaps that,
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was the cause or that simply couldn't figure out how to do the mysteries anymore
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or they tricked themselves out of it they go this is obvious when that's that is a,
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I'm not I'm getting to my conclusion far too quickly but it was maybe was it
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a case of maybe they were going okay well if we shorten this particular amount of, uh,
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If we shorten this explanation or that explanation of him actually doing the
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things, which is why people are tuning in, then we can spend more time on the
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relationship between Holmes and Watson or a relationship between...
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Sure, and there was a lot of relationship stuff that were thrown in, absolutely.
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Character development beyond Sherlock's solving the crime. Which.
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Is not what the audience wants. Because, say, elementary, that TV show went on for several seasons,
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like actually all you need to do is watch the first episode of that where Sherlock
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comes in and figures out there's a safe room because of the wave floor yeah
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and drops a marble and you go okay yeah,
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they almost never do that again yes and it is a and it is almost poetic I think
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I'm not I'm not opposed to the poetic character because then you have a show like,
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High Potential which is about a a.
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High-potential mother of three who starts working for the police force, the PDP.
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But she then explains everything she's doing. She's like, well, this is because of this.
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And she's figuring it out. And because she is the average Joe,
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and because she's figuring it out, the audience is being taken along with it in a far better way.
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I was going to make a childish analogy. Of course you were. Of course I was.
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But I was going to say, and there's other reasons for this, but say Saturday
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morning cartoons, He-Man,
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you know, you see he-man transfer or adam transform it to he-man yeah in one
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episode you know how so but they did that every episode now you could go they
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were saving animation cost
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to just repeat the same sequence but everyone wanted to see he adam change into he-man in the episode,
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yes as opposed to he-man just showing up sure and starting to to you know throw
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his weight around and beat skeletor yeah and they want to see that change yeah
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i mean you could say that things like,
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in the original Battlestar Galactica or in Buck Rogers, they only had so many
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shots of fighters shooting at one another.
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So they cut them up and they had. So you knew what was going to happen.
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Indeed, you had seen all the shots before, maybe not in that order.
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And I was like, but you wanted to see those shots in every episode.
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You didn't want them to go, oh yeah, there's a fight off screen. Yes, exactly.
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And indeed, back in the day, you couldn't re-watch the episode.
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You could only watch it one time yeah so you're not going unless you record it to reach so it was.
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I don't know how that connects but the I know I was getting back to the fact that the writers were,
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There are many, many writers probably on He-Man. One of which was J. Michael Strisky. Okay.
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But they knew to keep that transformation of Adam to He-Man in every episode. Sure, sure.
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As opposed to just, like I said, cutting that to add more development on He-Man's character.
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I know it was a cartoon, but if you could translate that back to Sherlock,
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it's a case of the writers should have kept him figuring things.
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As a more central part of the show. I guess, I guess, is what?
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Yeah, I see what you actually made because one was a standalone static part
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and the other one was quite hard and dynamic.
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Sure. Remember, because if the writers remember to do one thing,
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oh, right, let's have the scene in, the writers remembering to try and figure
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shit these detective stories out, that can be hard.
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Yeah. It's not just ripple, you know, copy, paste. Yeah.
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So the, so you have you have the potential and say because all stories are ultimately mysteries.
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So when you have this character of, and I think when I mentioned this as a kind
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of the placeholder character, I also mentioned the sympathy for the devil.
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The idea of having the devil character, you know, is like,
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whenever they encounter, say you're writing fantasy or science fiction and you
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have certain elements or certain archetypes being brought in,
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you expect them to be a certain way.
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And just because they're the devil or just because they're Sherlock or just
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because they are they have a name then the,
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there's an assumption it's similar like we talked before about the idea of a
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vampire there's a certain expectation of what that thing can do,
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if someone is actually the devil then yes you're going to have they're going
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to have powers and they're going to be they're going to be sneaky they're going
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to and they're going to be trick people into getting their souls sort of thing.
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They may have people for that. They got a guy for that. Yeah.
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But they'll have, they'll be a mastermind element.
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You know, there'll be a trickster element to them. You'll have things that you can presuppose. Yes.
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And the Sherlock character, in my mind, presupposes too much.
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And what you can see in other writing is people establishing their characters
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to the point of, this person is the best general or the best fighter or the best, best, best, best.
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She's not like other girls. She is. You know, she can do this and she can do
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that, which the other thing is, whether it be she, he, it doesn't matter.
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They all, it's a gender neutral situation.
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But then they stop writing what the person is doing. Yeah.
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They establish it and go, that's all I need to do. Mm-hmm. Or they walked into a fight, they went.
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Sorry what yeah no no I want to see the fight and the,
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the and the reason why Sherlock is a good example of this is that they he is
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a character who does show or has who has the capacity to do so we know he's
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going to figure it out yeah,
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but we want to see show his work yeah show the workings so it's a it's as it's
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it's the taking for granted of the individual or the character's skills that
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yeah that we're talking about.
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Exactly. That they, that, and I've now forgotten my final point,
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which is so great. Oh. But we'll walk, we'll walk on.
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We'll walk back to it in a moment. That the, the, by, by entering these,
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these characters into your narrative or by developing those characters,
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you know, as they, as they, take a lot of room. Yeah.
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They take a lot of focus and then you ignore what you want them to have in the first place.
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You ignore, as you mentioned before, the idea of, well, we don't want to spend
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all this time doing detective stuff, we want the romance, we want the friendships,
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we want the more personal aspects.
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Is that an effort, though, to keep it fresh, shall we say, in terms of they
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want to provide more to the audience than just a bloodhound that solves problems.
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You know, they want to, you know, is that a writer's choice necessarily to kind
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of say well let's let's advance and let's kind of progress the character beyond,
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the established skills that everybody knows he has,
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well if it is then i would say it's it's a bad choice i think so too because it's a,
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no matter what you have established a story if it's the case that.
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Because we're on Sherlock, let's take it, take Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones.
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He was the best fighter ever existed.
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He loses his hand. He can no longer be that person anymore.
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That would be a situation where, yes, there is a change.
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He can no longer exhibit the skills that he previously had.
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Thus, he has to change as a person. So, yes, as a shift in character,
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absolutely, you don't have to lock yourself in.
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Unless Sherlock has a lobotomy, he's still going to be Sherlock.
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Now, they do throw some kind of, he's obsessive about this and he has,
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and his, his, his opium addiction, his substance abuse, yes.
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So there is a, there is some characterized elements that throw in limitations. Yeah.
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But they, but when needed, he snaps into place. It's almost like we're filling some pages.
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Don't worry, by the end of it, he'll figure it out. He's still Sherlock,
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everyone, stay tuned. Exactly. And I think that statement there, he's still Sherlock.
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He's still that person. He's still the guy who's going to figure it out.
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And indeed, when you have, especially the later series where you have the sister
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who is even smarter than him, and is smarter than Mycroft, and it's like.
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It's what no this is you you you can't and again this is this is not gender
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they could have a younger brother that's smart of them it's,
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there is a you've spent all this time going this person is the smartest person
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and we've we've demonstrated yeah even if even time and time again even if you
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use we would take your take your point of when we established in the first two
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seasons how how he does things yeah and let's say,
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that's okay that for the for another two seasons we don't bother.
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At no point do they then bother to show the explanation of how the sibling does
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their thing so it becomes magical yes yeah exactly it becomes a a,
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just a a thing to be done it's like oh yeah that character read the script exactly yes the
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the the off the off to use what how why does this character do this way because
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they read the script yeah why is that why are they acting in this way because
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they read it right to the end and go
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oh i know everything about everything exactly so there is a it's a cheat,
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it is yeah and i mean that's that's that is that is not it wasn't my final point
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but it is a an excellent encapsulation of what we're talking about here that you,
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you you basically whether it be because because essentially sherlock sherlock
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in this is a mary soon yeah that but,
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if they're used correctly then actually i think the uh that the male version
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not that this is relative at all but I've heard it being referred to as a Gary Stew a Gary Stew,
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a Mary Stew being the female you know unbeatable whatever brilliant and everything
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and a Gary Stew being the male version not that it matters again,
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this is not gender specific it's just the character who is empowered to the
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point now because and as I said that the whether it be Prarot or whether it
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be because this is never said about Prarot.
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It's like, oh, it's because he's part. In the stories, when he is,
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oh, but you are the greatest detective. And he's like, I figure things out. Yes.
00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:21.418
And he has, again, he has obsession and he has all this stuff.
00:18:21.668 --> 00:18:28.820
And there's a wonderful aspects to that character where he is obsessed with getting things right.
00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:35.114
Like I recently rewatched. Demonstrates obsessive compulsive disorder. He does indeed, yes.
00:18:35.649 --> 00:18:39.346
But I recently rewatched Murder on the Orient Express. Yes, the Ken Soprano
00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:42.454
version of it, which is lovely. It's fantastic.
00:18:43.191 --> 00:18:48.920
And the staging of it and everything, and he has to, he has to,
00:18:50.040 --> 00:18:52.359
he's conflicting with his own sense of justice.
00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:56.398
Yes, a murder happens, someone must be held responsible for it.
00:18:57.437 --> 00:19:06.499
So either he adds to a lie and lets everyone go, or he basically gets everyone arrested. Yeah.
00:19:06.981 --> 00:19:09.284
And he doesn't want to do that because there's, at one point,
00:19:10.024 --> 00:19:12.069
there's no murderers here, there's only victims. Yeah.
00:19:12.944 --> 00:19:16.138
I have a vague recollection of the Peter Ustinov version of it.
00:19:16.533 --> 00:19:20.269
So, because I haven't read the original, but the Ustinov version,
00:19:20.716 --> 00:19:23.903
he only figures it out afterwards. Oh, okay.
00:19:24.112 --> 00:19:27.509
So that moral dilemma doesn't... It doesn't exist in that version in the character,
00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:29.681
because I think that's convenient.
00:19:30.923 --> 00:19:37.094
What do you mean well in so far as in that version Poirot stays he doesn't have
00:19:37.094 --> 00:19:39.229
to make that decision so he's still,
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.804
he's untouched by maybe making one of those calls one way or the other which
00:19:43.804 --> 00:19:47.644
conflicts with his own sense of justice no but in can't do anything about it
00:19:47.644 --> 00:19:49.777
in the Usenoff version he has he has failed,
00:19:50.442 --> 00:19:53.964
okay yeah sorry I haven't seen it either no but because he hasn't figured it
00:19:53.964 --> 00:19:57.580
out he's failed okay yeah so the question is that pro has figured it out.
00:19:59.004 --> 00:20:04.154
Knows pretty much knows that someone because the because of the knife wounds
00:20:04.154 --> 00:20:08.044
were all kind of somewhere shallow and somewhere where we're more first that everyone's here,
00:20:08.704 --> 00:20:14.284
here is responsible there's no way that this can't be you're all at fault there's
00:20:14.284 --> 00:20:19.064
a wonderful scene where they're all sitting down almost like in in a a,
00:20:20.224 --> 00:20:26.944
what's that last supper framing of all at a table all on one side Yes,
00:20:26.944 --> 00:20:28.224
they're all because of the seeds on your side.
00:20:28.224 --> 00:20:30.429
Okay. So it's a really nice framing.
00:20:31.383 --> 00:20:35.370
As he goes through, everyone goes, you are the governess, you are the sister,
00:20:35.370 --> 00:20:38.993
you are the aunt, you are the this, this, and it lists them all off.
00:20:39.722 --> 00:20:44.480
But in the Usopp version, he, again, if memory serves, because he didn't figure
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.510
it out, so he's the greatest detective, and he fails.
00:20:47.510 --> 00:20:52.150
Yeah, okay. So it is a, perhaps, because I don't know which is in better mind,
00:20:52.150 --> 00:21:01.039
but in both senses, you have a character who is, has an ability that is about detection.
00:21:01.265 --> 00:21:05.085
Yes. It's not just waving a wand and going, I figured it's all out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:05.874 --> 00:21:07.846
And it is a, it's.
00:21:10.112 --> 00:21:16.352
But to your point about it being cheating, that it is you, because you can establish
00:21:16.352 --> 00:21:20.183
a character and go, this person is the Mary Sue or the Gary,
00:21:20.427 --> 00:21:22.292
the Mary Stew or the Gary Sue.
00:21:22.672 --> 00:21:24.712
Which way was it? All good. All works.
00:21:26.132 --> 00:21:28.092
It doesn't matter. In this case, it doesn't matter the gender.
00:21:28.092 --> 00:21:33.872
They are basically given an ability that no one else, that defeats the story.
00:21:34.292 --> 00:21:38.272
And that thing is the thing, that they are, they hold within themselves the
00:21:38.272 --> 00:21:42.300
absolute ability to figure shit out or to be right at the end. Yeah.
00:21:43.852 --> 00:21:46.672
I'll reference one of my own characters in this as I kind of,
00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:48.797
again, because I'm wonderful and awesome.
00:21:49.712 --> 00:21:52.512
In Parliament Crow, they, the,
00:21:53.292 --> 00:21:57.752
one of the characters is Jacob Crow and he has an ability to refer to as the
00:21:57.752 --> 00:22:02.593
legacy which is basically whenever, so when his father died he got the memories
00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:06.256
of his father and every, every antecedent person. Yeah.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.012
And as a, a friend of mine said when I told him this,
00:22:10.709 --> 00:22:14.742
you mean that he has a memory of shagging every member of his family it's like
00:22:14.742 --> 00:22:19.132
shut the fuck up and you know unfortunately that's true and you know it's like
00:22:19.289 --> 00:22:23.816
the idea of that's gonna mess you up oh absolutely put a deer put a plastic bag put.
00:22:25.452 --> 00:22:31.952
A bag over your head we must shag only once but because they are a family of
00:22:31.952 --> 00:22:37.414
monster hunters every monster they've encountered he has the full he has a massive
00:22:37.693 --> 00:22:40.030
insight yes But it's not absolute.
00:22:40.496 --> 00:22:44.414
It's still a single-person observation of the world.
00:22:45.432 --> 00:22:49.532
So his great-great-great-grandfather encountered the Mego. He has an edge,
00:22:49.532 --> 00:22:51.977
but he doesn't have the answers yet. Yes.
00:22:52.244 --> 00:22:56.461
And so this means that he is incredibly valuable as a resource,
00:22:57.072 --> 00:22:58.482
as a knowledge resource. Yeah.
00:22:59.377 --> 00:23:02.829
But he's not always right. And I think that's when the card comes in,
00:23:02.829 --> 00:23:06.249
the idea of there's all these other people in the world who are searching and
00:23:06.249 --> 00:23:09.825
hunting for monsters and trying to defeat the monsters and trying to think,
00:23:10.173 --> 00:23:11.347
but why aren't they all together?
00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:13.824
Because they're not, because personalities.
00:23:14.238 --> 00:23:20.769
Yeah, also the delicious thing about not all memories are going to be 100% accurate. Oh, I'm sorry.
00:23:21.929 --> 00:23:28.007
As I was saying, they do fade over time, absolutely. But there is a case that I do grant a degree of.
00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:35.869
Certitude. Given that, but absolutely I agree that in almost every other thing
00:23:35.869 --> 00:23:41.409
I do which has memory involved, that memory is a poor...
00:23:41.409 --> 00:23:47.229
Yeah, but this is a supernatural memory, so it's more, I presume,
00:23:47.229 --> 00:23:51.312
in line with what's stored in the brain rather than what the person could recall,
00:23:51.881 --> 00:23:53.738
at the time of their death. No, it is supernatural.
00:23:54.249 --> 00:23:59.159
That's what I mean, yeah. So the brain of the individual still has all these
00:23:59.159 --> 00:24:03.299
memories stored and that's what gets passed on is it yeah no so okay so,
00:24:04.027 --> 00:24:09.124
so a little bit more in story so he so he essentially disappears in 1920s yeah
00:24:09.403 --> 00:24:11.298
he's already had a had a had a child
00:24:11.716 --> 00:24:16.179
but the but he when he disappeared so they disappeared the um the memory didn't
00:24:16.179 --> 00:24:21.508
get passed on yeah to his son then his son had another son his son is now 30
00:24:21.508 --> 00:24:24.779
year in present day, that's Jeremy, and then Jacob comes back.
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:27.984
He appears out of a portal 80 years later, essentially.
00:24:29.900 --> 00:24:35.694
And he has lost the memory as well, but he has recollection of every memory
00:24:35.984 --> 00:24:39.722
that he pulled down, essentially, from the collective.
00:24:39.897 --> 00:24:45.229
So in the course of his life, he investigated X, Y, Z. So there is 10,
00:24:45.389 --> 00:24:49.329
20 generations of memories going back that he could, when he had access to it,
00:24:49.329 --> 00:24:50.485
he could trawl through and go, oh,
00:24:51.865 --> 00:24:57.571
uncle jebediah did the great grandfather jebediah encountered these guys these
00:24:57.571 --> 00:24:59.339
guys before this is how you kill them yeah,
00:25:00.027 --> 00:25:05.252
but if he never previously had that encounter he wouldn't have pulled down that memory so,
00:25:05.699 --> 00:25:10.581
in a sort of cloud kind of way yeah that all these memories exist on the cloud
00:25:10.581 --> 00:25:14.821
and only those ones that he had accessed previously does he have a regular call
00:25:14.821 --> 00:25:19.082
off so he still has still has some recall but it's only,
00:25:19.841 --> 00:25:23.671
for those missions yeah and actually the reason why this kind of came up in
00:25:23.671 --> 00:25:28.491
my head is that I'm working on the again I'm diving in back into Parliament
00:25:28.491 --> 00:25:33.441
at some point in the near future once I have certain things finished and the third book,
00:25:33.921 --> 00:25:38.061
ends where I thought the first season was going to end and I've planned out
00:25:38.061 --> 00:25:40.941
five seasons so I've got a lot of fucking work out of me yes indeed,
00:25:41.681 --> 00:25:47.269
so so all that all that's in my in my future but the idea is that And while,
00:25:48.197 --> 00:25:49.277
inside the story,
00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:54.971
he is seen as the great investigator, the great Mythos investigator.
00:25:54.971 --> 00:25:56.719
He can figure all this stuff out. He does.
00:25:58.078 --> 00:26:02.164
Well, he can, he can't. Yeah. Because, and the reader sees his limitations.
00:26:02.710 --> 00:26:07.513
So, and he sees his process. Okay, well, you know, granddad did this,
00:26:07.513 --> 00:26:09.485
and great-granddad this, and great-great-great-great-granddad.
00:26:09.688 --> 00:26:12.190
So, that's where the information was coming from.
00:26:12.867 --> 00:26:16.501
But it also means that he has to deal with the personalities of all these people going back.
00:26:17.612 --> 00:26:21.933
And all their other memories, and all their other exploits, and attitudes,
00:26:22.273 --> 00:26:27.913
et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, it's a case of like you were trying and you succeed
00:26:27.913 --> 00:26:29.618
in not cheating the reader.
00:26:30.082 --> 00:26:31.888
Essentially though that... A wizard did it.
00:26:32.486 --> 00:26:36.123
Well, essentially, yeah. And that's essentially what he... So he has magical
00:26:36.123 --> 00:26:38.662
powers. So the idea of him...
00:26:39.373 --> 00:26:43.373
Because I could have just went, yeah, he has full knowledge. Total recall. Exactly.
00:26:43.713 --> 00:26:48.793
He has ultimate memory of everything that's gone before. Like when I wrote it
00:26:48.793 --> 00:26:50.510
originally, I hadn't read Dune.
00:26:51.393 --> 00:26:57.333
So when you have the Bene Gesserits in that, they do the same thing. Keepers of...
00:26:59.293 --> 00:27:03.673
And that's why Aaliyah is an abomination, because she gets to get all those
00:27:03.673 --> 00:27:05.599
memories while she's in utero.
00:27:05.727 --> 00:27:09.883
Yeah. So when she wakes up, she's pre-born. She's pre-born, I think is the term
00:27:10.104 --> 00:27:12.533
that they use. But that is supernatural.
00:27:13.653 --> 00:27:20.093
That is a cheat. They are giving her access to every fucking memory of every person. Unearned.
00:27:21.093 --> 00:27:25.103
And so there is a, I'm putting one thing is, it is a cheat in a way,
00:27:25.103 --> 00:27:26.761
but they mute it by making her a villain.
00:27:27.633 --> 00:27:31.233
If you haven't read the books, if you watch the movies, you haven't read the books.
00:27:32.113 --> 00:27:33.956
So different things. So the,
00:27:34.911 --> 00:27:38.470
The idea of when you're building the character,
00:27:39.892 --> 00:27:43.990
when you're building your characters, there is a,
00:27:44.542 --> 00:27:48.730
if you've made the promise of this is what this character is,
00:27:48.730 --> 00:27:54.650
this is what the character does, then having, going to full 100% is A,
00:27:54.650 --> 00:27:57.063
unwise, in my humble opinion,
00:27:58.430 --> 00:27:59.250
and sticks you in a corner.
00:28:00.935 --> 00:28:04.610
Because if it's successful and if it's well-liked, then, oh yeah, this is great.
00:28:05.176 --> 00:28:07.661
The greatest sword fighter ever, the greatest detective wherever,
00:28:07.818 --> 00:28:09.884
the greatest car driver, whatever.
00:28:10.209 --> 00:28:14.517
Then in the next book, they don't get into the car. They don't pick up a sword.
00:28:14.708 --> 00:28:17.582
They don't figure it. They don't show you their workings of how to figure out this stuff.
00:28:17.843 --> 00:28:20.171
Then it's like, where was it?
00:28:20.629 --> 00:28:26.500
Yeah. Because I know in Night of Galgara, for example, Rosalind is established
00:28:26.500 --> 00:28:29.350
as a particularly competent fighter. Yeah.
00:28:30.070 --> 00:28:35.210
Like she's, she's a trained knight. She's, you know, she has been training her entire life. Yes.
00:28:35.230 --> 00:28:40.280
But it's, it's, it's kind of measured by her inexperience. Sure.
00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:42.248
And naivety in, in some regards.
00:28:42.614 --> 00:28:46.701
Like her, her, her lack of actual combat.
00:28:47.235 --> 00:28:50.520
Not, not complete lack of actual combat, but like when she's thrown into the
00:28:50.520 --> 00:28:56.310
thick of it in, in the story, she's demonstrating like that she doesn't know everything. Yes.
00:28:56.730 --> 00:29:00.850
And, but however skilled that she is, she doesn't know it all and she still
00:29:00.850 --> 00:29:06.521
needs to learn yeah you know an experience and that and and that establishment,
00:29:07.032 --> 00:29:12.134
means that there is a path of her to travel with and the audience gets to travel with her that,
00:29:12.791 --> 00:29:18.570
we don't know how good things she may become the the the best there ever but
00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:22.800
but we don't but she's not there yet and we get to see her grow and develop
00:29:22.800 --> 00:29:26.860
and have her have her pitfalls and and maybe it's the point point where she she.
00:29:28.177 --> 00:29:31.657
Whether she loses a hand, for example, or she puts down a sword,
00:29:31.657 --> 00:29:36.737
or whatever it is that she at some point may never become that greatest ever.
00:29:38.177 --> 00:29:42.443
Something could interrupt that, yeah. It's still striving. It's still a path going forward.
00:29:42.634 --> 00:29:46.628
So in one sense, you're also not emptying the option box for later.
00:29:48.637 --> 00:29:53.457
In a counterpoint of something that was done badly, in The Name of the Wind, the.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:00.517
Patrick Rothfuss book, which i really really really dislike i don't know if
00:30:00.517 --> 00:30:03.657
i mentioned this before but i actually wrote fanfic uh,
00:30:05.017 --> 00:30:11.197
well it's like so i i was i was inspired by this book that i wrote uh scriven
00:30:11.197 --> 00:30:14.040
of soho inspired by this because okay,
00:30:14.946 --> 00:30:20.490
it's essentially is it's it starts off saying it starts off by basically this is the character
00:30:20.815 --> 00:30:25.865
was the best wizard the best these the best warrior the best he was just the
00:30:26.057 --> 00:30:30.045
bestest bestest bestest yeah and this is where the story story starts.
00:30:31.624 --> 00:30:35.853
But you now so rather than with in the case of Rosalind you hope that she's
00:30:35.853 --> 00:30:42.462
going to get there you you're willing and that willing to get there is a far more powerful,
00:30:42.973 --> 00:30:45.963
connection to that person because you because if you connect with that character
00:30:45.963 --> 00:30:49.803
and go I want them to do well then you I'm with them on this yeah,
00:30:50.323 --> 00:30:54.803
you embrace their successes and you also you suffer their defeats,
00:30:55.591 --> 00:30:59.543
if you have someone like this guy's going to do the best then you're like okay
00:30:59.543 --> 00:31:04.483
don't need my support then every step along the way is like okay every success of course
00:31:04.803 --> 00:31:08.713
yeah he's the best yeah it's taken for granted again yeah and this is just an
00:31:08.713 --> 00:31:10.893
expression of the best oh he fails,
00:31:11.818 --> 00:31:15.383
okay we know that's this only a temporary setback because we already know he's
00:31:15.383 --> 00:31:20.463
the bestest bestest bestest yeah i think there was a like i've seen videos you
00:31:20.463 --> 00:31:26.123
know we won't get in too much into the whole aspect of Shad. Shad of Erb, yeah.
00:31:26.803 --> 00:31:28.383
And the Shadow of the Conqueror novel.
00:31:30.043 --> 00:31:35.423
I haven't read it, but I've... Oh, you don't want to? I've seen enough reviews
00:31:35.423 --> 00:31:38.493
and things like that to say. That's a character that starts off at the best
00:31:38.493 --> 00:31:41.061
of everything and wins every fight because he's just so...
00:31:41.989 --> 00:31:46.969
Star-spangled awesome and just can't fail at anything ever um,
00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:52.867
you know and that's that's the actual least concerning yes elements of his character
00:31:53.233 --> 00:31:58.209
well yes but you have nowhere to go with that like you were saying yeah and indeed he's,
00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:04.135
there there there was ways for him to write that story without that element
00:32:04.425 --> 00:32:12.199
now we're so i think has read i read this stuff is keenly aware that there is a lot of incredibly, and,
00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:18.269
not just bad, but not just problematic, but incredibly toxic elements in that book. Yeah.
00:32:19.497 --> 00:32:26.956
That there is a metric ton of essay and it's not even phrased as being bad. Yeah.
00:32:28.849 --> 00:32:30.219
Justified, I think, at one point,
00:32:30.219 --> 00:32:35.577
yeah. Well, the justification is being a mother is the best thing ever.
00:32:35.850 --> 00:32:38.939
So how you get to being a mother doesn't matter. I was like,
00:32:38.939 --> 00:32:41.669
that is, this guy is just messed up.
00:32:42.429 --> 00:32:45.009
That's why I didn't want to get in, I just- Yeah, absolutely,
00:32:45.009 --> 00:32:49.429
but I guess it was invoked, so let's push that aside, because this guy is fucked
00:32:49.429 --> 00:32:53.569
up, and very, very rarely would I recommend against something,
00:32:54.016 --> 00:32:55.908
but this is something I'd recommend against.
00:32:56.945 --> 00:33:00.021
But he could have written that book, ignoring that part, as saying,
00:33:00.021 --> 00:33:05.920
this is the conqueror, he is the economic genius that he is,
00:33:06.428 --> 00:33:08.101
the magical geniuses, the warriors.
00:33:08.461 --> 00:33:14.130
Yeah. And the next person, instead of him basically being reversed in age,
00:33:14.362 --> 00:33:17.620
from an 80-year-old to an 18-year-old. Reversed in experience?
00:33:17.845 --> 00:33:21.833
No, no. Or knowledge? No, no, no. You just make him a clone. Yeah.
00:33:22.177 --> 00:33:26.425
That he still carries the baggage of everything that that person did. Yeah.
00:33:26.801 --> 00:33:32.375
But he doesn't necessarily become that person again. So you essentially get, you get to reset. Yeah.
00:33:32.829 --> 00:33:35.681
Which is one thing that I've heard him saying that this was part of the thing,
00:33:35.681 --> 00:33:38.701
that he gets to reset. But no, he's already achieved that. Yeah.
00:33:39.241 --> 00:33:42.051
And he's moving on in his life rather than restarting.
00:33:44.401 --> 00:33:53.221
If the person was a clone or the son of, that he took on.
00:33:57.134 --> 00:34:03.161
The bad, or took on the terror. Son of would have worked a lot better. Well, far better.
00:34:03.601 --> 00:34:06.641
Well, both of them serve the exact same function in this regard,
00:34:06.641 --> 00:34:11.521
because the clone wouldn't necessarily have the same skill set,
00:34:12.140 --> 00:34:15.285
because it would have to be learned, and you'd still have to go through the same process.
00:34:16.421 --> 00:34:20.271
You're not saying that this person is automatically going to become the same
00:34:20.271 --> 00:34:21.215
person that he came before.
00:34:21.453 --> 00:34:26.601
So you can have, and indeed, clone may be better in this regard because you
00:34:26.601 --> 00:34:30.741
have the same genome, you have the same capacity for. Yes.
00:34:31.401 --> 00:34:37.401
So him becoming a good person that he would then, like I love the idea of having,
00:34:37.901 --> 00:34:43.941
of having, of forcing the audience or forcing the reader to deal with a, deal with a villain.
00:34:44.321 --> 00:34:49.581
Yeah. Or dealing with a hero doing villainous things or having a villain and doing heroic things.
00:34:52.441 --> 00:34:53.154
It's not a...
00:34:53.910 --> 00:34:57.626
The mustache twirling moment. Yes. Cartoon villain. Of the, oh no,
00:34:58.126 --> 00:35:04.186
I mean of the, of having the villain do a good thing for, to go,
00:35:04.186 --> 00:35:06.666
ha ha, now you, what do you want to think of me now? Because clearly,
00:35:06.666 --> 00:35:08.034
you're still an asshole. Yeah.
00:35:08.545 --> 00:35:14.698
But having their actions be kind of, no, this action, like say, having a villain.
00:35:16.886 --> 00:35:19.818
Save some people because he's killing other people. Yeah.
00:35:20.190 --> 00:35:23.626
So, you know, because at the moment we're saying, we're at the moment of the same.
00:35:23.626 --> 00:35:28.346
Died you know like say he his his evil army his he's he's lost control of his
00:35:28.346 --> 00:35:31.786
evil army he'll kill off the he he happily kills off the evil army because he's
00:35:31.786 --> 00:35:32.929
no longer serving his purpose yeah,
00:35:33.399 --> 00:35:36.276
but that's still a good act i think as you can question whether or not how good
00:35:36.276 --> 00:35:41.696
an act is that idea of of forcing the forcing the audience to go i really like
00:35:41.696 --> 00:35:46.386
this hero who just fucking committed murder yeah and that's something that that i've done in,
00:35:46.951 --> 00:35:52.076
in both parliament and in and Quantumancy forcing the audience forcing the reader to go,
00:35:52.766 --> 00:35:56.266
this is a character I like why are they doing this bad thing not why are they
00:35:56.266 --> 00:35:59.976
doing this bad thing but I can understand them getting to this point I now have
00:35:59.976 --> 00:36:03.906
to deal with coming out of the other side going do I still like them?
00:36:04.643 --> 00:36:09.285
Like there's there are breaking points for good for heroic characters as well,
00:36:09.818 --> 00:36:13.667
you know you can write it whereby you know there's just.
00:36:14.706 --> 00:36:19.775
Every defeat or every every kind of painful act that's happening to the character
00:36:20.180 --> 00:36:24.910
can be continuously pushing them to a point where they break.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:26.606
Oh, sure. But, well, so...
00:36:27.266 --> 00:36:31.394
And maybe a turn. I would absolutely agree that that is one way of looking at it.
00:36:31.934 --> 00:36:35.933
But what if it's not a breaking point? What if it's just a natural step? Yeah.
00:36:36.427 --> 00:36:42.616
What if it's just that... So the breaking point does imply that they're a different
00:36:42.616 --> 00:36:46.214
person today than they were yesterday. Yeah. What if they're the exact same person?
00:36:47.066 --> 00:36:52.724
Yeah. The trolley problem is a wonderful problem that I love throwing out, the idea of.
00:36:53.786 --> 00:36:56.909
If you do nothing, one person dies. Or say three people die.
00:36:57.060 --> 00:36:58.401
If you do something, one person dies.
00:36:59.028 --> 00:37:04.490
And then you have to question, okay, well, you won't throw the handle for it
00:37:04.490 --> 00:37:09.437
to stop three people dying, or say two, they say you kill one person, but what if it's five?
00:37:09.964 --> 00:37:18.410
Or what, you know, those numbers, that balance of numbers is a thing that everyone
00:37:18.410 --> 00:37:19.840
will have determination.
00:37:20.180 --> 00:37:23.291
We'll go, okay, I will happily flick that switch.
00:37:24.260 --> 00:37:28.430
For a certain value yeah and then the the additional question i think or a subsequent
00:37:28.430 --> 00:37:30.617
question to that after the pull the lever,
00:37:31.284 --> 00:37:35.630
is okay you have to push that one person onto the tracks in order to save those
00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:41.600
20 people that's that's in that series of of questions and then it becomes well
00:37:41.600 --> 00:37:43.893
yeah i would or i wouldn't or you know.
00:37:45.018 --> 00:37:48.728
I haven't heard that part. Yeah, it's part of the follow-up, kind of.
00:37:49.285 --> 00:37:52.263
The initial question is a trolley problem. Say 20 people on the tracks there,
00:37:52.455 --> 00:37:56.855
one person on the track. If you pull a lever, it goes and kills the one person rather than the 20.
00:37:57.221 --> 00:38:00.841
And whoever answers, answers. And if they answer in the affirmative,
00:38:00.841 --> 00:38:04.018
oh yeah, absolutely pull the lever, kill the one person, save the 20.
00:38:04.216 --> 00:38:09.391
Then they go, further investigation into the psychology is, right,
00:38:09.391 --> 00:38:15.121
now it's not a lever. Now you have to actually push the person in order to save the 20.
00:38:15.686 --> 00:38:20.799
Okay. I don't see much of the difference, except for maybe that someone can...
00:38:21.881 --> 00:38:26.601
Pulling a disassociation from pulling a lever as to actually being the one.
00:38:26.601 --> 00:38:29.066
Oh, sure, but the metaphor itself is a disassociation.
00:38:29.961 --> 00:38:36.473
Yeah. That it is. Essentially, you are picturing in your mind an action causing their death.
00:38:36.798 --> 00:38:39.329
You're picturing in your mind an action. So, I'm sorry, I'm going to say,
00:38:40.201 --> 00:38:44.228
for a podcast, So you picture in action, I pull a lever, a person dies.
00:38:44.617 --> 00:38:49.145
The picture in action, I push someone, person dies. There is a,
00:38:52.312 --> 00:38:56.328
if that's the way it goes, I don't think there's much in the difference of it.
00:38:57.981 --> 00:39:01.531
So to kind of wind back to our starting point.
00:39:04.101 --> 00:39:09.841
By crafting a character such that they are too good.
00:39:10.241 --> 00:39:14.401
And this could simply be, you know, a diatribe against the Mary Sue and the
00:39:14.401 --> 00:39:18.151
Gary Stu, but it is a little bit- Ray Skywalker.
00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:21.577
Yeah, which was fucking terrible.
00:39:22.743 --> 00:39:26.417
Because they didn't understand what they were delivering. There was no,
00:39:26.922 --> 00:39:30.030
even, there was no, like, they tried to do it in the second,
00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:32.896
I think it was the second one, where she tries to do some training,
00:39:33.267 --> 00:39:35.777
and it's like, you've already got there.
00:39:36.109 --> 00:39:42.830
Well, sorry, there's many, like, if you look at, say, the lightsaber jewels,
00:39:43.602 --> 00:39:48.381
whether it be the jewel of fate or the last jewel between Anakin and Obi-Wan.
00:39:49.630 --> 00:39:55.257
And if you listen to them talking about it, like i recently went went down a a a,
00:39:56.090 --> 00:39:59.250
not a not an intentional deep dive but it was just doom scrolling i found all
00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:03.550
these all these clips of of the guys talking about their their their dueling
00:40:03.870 --> 00:40:09.442
yeah experience or their experience while doing these duels that when.
00:40:10.370 --> 00:40:18.410
When ewan mcgregor when darth maul has killed and qui-gon and rey mcgregor is behind the wall Yeah.
00:40:18.410 --> 00:40:22.590
I find the laser wall and he starts like bouncing up and down.
00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:23.790
Yeah, like he's ready, he's ready.
00:40:24.470 --> 00:40:29.082
And that was Ewan McGregor geeing himself up in this fight.
00:40:29.407 --> 00:40:33.210
And I was like, we're keeping that in. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to do it.
00:40:33.570 --> 00:40:35.550
And indeed they had to. Because it looked very natural. Well,
00:40:35.550 --> 00:40:38.450
they also had to slow down the cameras rather than speed up the cameras.
00:40:38.450 --> 00:40:42.032
Yeah. They were just, they admittedly you had, what's it, Ray Parks,
00:40:42.299 --> 00:40:45.731
who was a profound martial artist and judo player.
00:40:46.004 --> 00:40:50.510
So he, so, And the two of them together had this wonderful dance.
00:40:50.510 --> 00:40:51.565
Yeah. Absolutely great.
00:40:51.879 --> 00:40:55.666
You then have the, the, the, the, as in the Jill between them at the end,
00:40:56.014 --> 00:40:59.504
between McGregor and, and. Hayden Christensen. Indeed, at the end.
00:40:59.771 --> 00:41:02.100
And the two of them were saying, they're saying that, that we knew that,
00:41:02.100 --> 00:41:05.761
we knew that so well, that it was just, we're having fun with it.
00:41:05.877 --> 00:41:07.857
Yeah. And there was a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
00:41:08.223 --> 00:41:13.483
And then you compare that to the utter slop. Yeah. That's come out recently.
00:41:13.837 --> 00:41:17.680
And you, and these are, and actually, this is, this is, I, I,
00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:21.882
I think this may appear to be a tangent, but it actually does, I think.
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.425
It's coming back around to land. Oh yeah, absolutely. Because...
00:41:25.381 --> 00:41:29.691
You're then told that Rey is the best duelist, or bestest, bestest, bestest, bestest.
00:41:30.511 --> 00:41:34.871
Naturally gifted. And he's like, that's not there. It's just hacking.
00:41:36.391 --> 00:41:39.145
These are not duelists. They're not.
00:41:41.331 --> 00:41:46.041
If Ben Kenobi, or whatever, what the fuck's his name? Ben Solo?
00:41:46.041 --> 00:41:48.269
That's the one. Qui-Gon, whatever's fucked.
00:41:48.751 --> 00:41:52.351
I don't remember his name. Ben Solo is meant to be kind of Vader's,
00:41:53.771 --> 00:42:00.071
if they were taught at any point by Luke when he was meant to have the Order of Wren or whatever,
00:42:01.811 --> 00:42:05.501
these are establishments you're putting the things in place and you're not showing
00:42:05.501 --> 00:42:09.080
it this is you're even doing worse than,
00:42:09.991 --> 00:42:14.301
the Sherlock who you showed him figuring things out you're saying they're the
00:42:14.301 --> 00:42:19.051
best and you're never showing a justification for it that's, it's hollow,
00:42:20.211 --> 00:42:23.785
yeah it feels unearned yeah yeah it feels like if you're gonna,
00:42:24.805 --> 00:42:30.951
essentially skip like you know if you were given lots of maths homework sure
00:42:30.951 --> 00:42:33.271
and you just put down the answers you don't get any,
00:42:33.911 --> 00:42:37.921
any marks sure if you just because they just presumed that someone else did
00:42:37.921 --> 00:42:42.541
the work because you haven't demonstrated yes show your calculation you haven't
00:42:42.541 --> 00:42:46.511
you haven't shown your work you haven't demonstrated the calculation you there's there's no way
00:42:46.931 --> 00:42:50.469
for someone an outside observer looking at to,
00:42:51.191 --> 00:42:56.482
tell if there's substance there or if it's a cheat. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
00:42:58.567 --> 00:43:01.927
But that's that's the i guess the the assumption is that the,
00:43:03.007 --> 00:43:07.887
that this is a cheat yeah it will always always kind of veer towards well you're
00:43:07.887 --> 00:43:12.987
you're skipping you're you're skipping steps here yeah it'll always kind of i i think,
00:43:13.627 --> 00:43:18.007
naturally anyone like reading something or watching something like that you
00:43:18.007 --> 00:43:21.707
know if if you didn't see rocky training all that time yes and there was no
00:43:21.707 --> 00:43:26.567
training montage and he just like shows up and and gets beaten you go oh okay,
00:43:27.107 --> 00:43:31.046
you know But the whole heart of the story is kind of missing.
00:43:31.308 --> 00:43:34.007
So how hard he's struggling to get there. Oh, sure.
00:43:34.347 --> 00:43:39.722
And because you also get that compared off in Rocky II when he's fighting the Russian.
00:43:40.245 --> 00:43:45.495
Rocky II, he fights Apollo again. Rocky III, he fights Drago.
00:43:45.803 --> 00:43:48.693
But you see Drago also training as well.
00:43:49.448 --> 00:43:53.557
It's the meatpacking. Chasing chickens versus electronic. Exactly,
00:43:53.557 --> 00:43:56.938
all the technology. It's like you're comparing America to Russia that way.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.557
Okay, that's all the way of doing it. Russia has all the technology.
00:43:59.557 --> 00:44:02.887
Exactly. That's a bit weird, but it was bought in. Yeah.
00:44:03.247 --> 00:44:06.557
Because they were... It's all natural versus natural, I think.
00:44:06.587 --> 00:44:09.727
Exactly, yeah, and it did very well.
00:44:10.661 --> 00:44:16.447
So there was a decent establishment. And I think, and because we haven't mentioned
00:44:16.827 --> 00:44:21.348
this so far, it's fanfic, that in fanfiction.
00:44:22.978 --> 00:44:27.018
In fan fiction, Just have to swallow back the bile.
00:44:27.122 --> 00:44:30.994
In fan fiction, you are taking characters that already exist. Yeah.
00:44:31.365 --> 00:44:36.015
All situations that also exist. And then you're writing, you're writing the next scene. Mm-hmm.
00:44:36.361 --> 00:44:39.880
So why does Harry Potter succeed? Because he's Harry fucking Potter.
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why does Rey succeed? Because she's Rey. Yeah.
00:44:42.660 --> 00:44:45.970
Why does all these characters? Because everyone who's reading the fanfic wants
00:44:45.970 --> 00:44:48.820
them to succeed. Yeah. They don't need to know. They don't need,
00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:50.740
they don't need to know the process. Yeah.
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:54.450
It's, it's just done. That's it. you don't know you don't need to know any other
00:44:54.450 --> 00:45:01.670
detail about just their name yeah and that's another reason if one was needed
00:45:01.972 --> 00:45:04.844
why fanfic was so why it's.
00:45:06.620 --> 00:45:10.957
You know you need to build up whether it be successful or as my success or successful
00:45:11.202 --> 00:45:17.030
i kind of mean that that you may not be successful in describing your characters
00:45:17.030 --> 00:45:19.410
yeah because you know and the The reason why,
00:45:20.330 --> 00:45:23.269
we will write one story and another story and another story is because we're
00:45:23.391 --> 00:45:24.285
constantly looking for,
00:45:25.120 --> 00:45:28.950
we're trying to reiterate or kind of, maybe like George R.
00:45:28.950 --> 00:45:32.820
R. Martin is a great example of someone who even used the same character names
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:36.056
over and over and over again. Yeah. That he was essentially telling very similar stories.
00:45:36.536 --> 00:45:40.930
There's so many stories about love triangles. And outside of Game of Thrones,
00:45:41.139 --> 00:45:44.274
there's tons. Inside Game of Thrones, there's fucking massive numbers,
00:45:44.937 --> 00:45:46.289
especially involving women without hair.
00:45:46.707 --> 00:45:52.320
But that's it. So, but that's him constantly kind of trying to find the best
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:56.430
version of those characters, and that's an absolutely fine process.
00:45:56.430 --> 00:46:03.182
It doesn't mean that those stories were bad, it's just that he didn't reach,
00:46:03.513 --> 00:46:08.520
or maybe for his own purposes, that he didn't reach the heights that he was looking for,
00:46:09.625 --> 00:46:13.910
or that he needed a little bit more time, a little bit more exploration.
00:46:15.297 --> 00:46:22.100
And that's where your fan fiction folk fail.
00:46:22.338 --> 00:46:26.871
And that's deliteration. And that's... Fan fiction folk fail? Fan fiction folk fail.
00:46:27.871 --> 00:46:32.934
Another reason why they fail. It's because they're not looking to create works. Yeah.
00:46:33.549 --> 00:46:40.212
They're looking to... I've been struggling trying to find a good metaphor for this.
00:46:40.555 --> 00:46:45.501
That if they're not trying to create stories, they're trying to create TikTok.
00:46:47.232 --> 00:46:53.381
As in you might talk to someone about i saw this great tiktok you might send
00:46:53.381 --> 00:46:58.087
them this is a great tiktok it'll be a single joke it'll be like a skit,
00:46:59.381 --> 00:47:05.931
but it won't have any lasting or meaningful impression or impact on your life
00:47:05.931 --> 00:47:10.891
going forward or change your perspective on the world or or people around you
00:47:10.891 --> 00:47:14.128
or give you a deeper understanding of humanity or,
00:47:14.891 --> 00:47:20.951
any things like that that fiction literature can do well and that's one would
00:47:20.951 --> 00:47:25.180
hope and that I guess will bring us back to kind of the idea of talent,
00:47:26.051 --> 00:47:31.521
which we may get back to again in another episode that the that we claim or
00:47:31.521 --> 00:47:35.771
at least I will certainly claim that I'm very good at what I do and I would
00:47:35.771 --> 00:47:38.305
just I would say that you're good you're very good at what you do,
00:47:39.638 --> 00:47:45.584
That it is that by, and this is just an explanation of a single character,
00:47:45.962 --> 00:47:53.479
that it is by being mindful of that, that we are aware to create better. Yes.
00:47:53.990 --> 00:47:59.220
That it's not just something that we can just go, ah, second. Striving to add.
00:48:00.813 --> 00:48:05.813
Daring to. Daring to add, yes. Hoping, daring. Yeah, daring.
00:48:07.911 --> 00:48:15.819
To add something to the world. Greater than something that's just forgotten tomorrow.
00:48:15.964 --> 00:48:22.753
Yeah, I mean, you can paddle around in the shallow end of a pool and be happy all your life. Sure.
00:48:24.073 --> 00:48:27.333
If you don't get into the ocean and dive down, you're not going to see much. Sure.
00:48:28.613 --> 00:48:32.193
And I've said before that I doom scroll, so I go through videos,
00:48:32.193 --> 00:48:34.114
videos, videos, all the way down.
00:48:34.490 --> 00:48:37.300
You know, there's nothing wrong with dogs and babies.
00:48:37.980 --> 00:48:45.053
Not dogs eating babies dogs and babies or dogs and toddlers as they're just,
00:48:45.893 --> 00:48:49.678
seeing that interaction. It's like cat videos as they say. Yeah awesome cat videos yeah.
00:48:50.927 --> 00:48:57.848
That's fine and that's grand and that does have an impact or you can have an impact from that,
00:48:58.810 --> 00:49:07.177
but I would hope and perhaps I'm being too self-centered in this that I would hope that,
00:49:08.333 --> 00:49:13.423
the work that we do which touch people would you know as we were talking about
00:49:13.423 --> 00:49:17.653
the idea entertaining yeah entertaining
00:49:17.653 --> 00:49:22.277
touching provoking questioning all these things that we could do,
00:49:23.629 --> 00:49:26.784
yep and we will leave it there for.
00:49:32.884 --> 00:49:36.504
Much more to talk about and so many more episodes to go, I presume.
00:49:37.664 --> 00:49:41.067
Who can say? I mean, you know, our listener is very keen.
00:49:42.524 --> 00:49:47.604
Hi, Bob. Bob tunes in every episode. Thanks very much.
00:49:48.704 --> 00:49:54.124
But yeah, we will leave it there for today and we will talk to you all or talk
00:49:54.124 --> 00:49:56.799
to you all. Yes, talk at you.
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.346
And at some later time. Thanks for listening.
00:50:00.712 --> 00:50:02.924
Keep watching the sky. you.