Matt Giovanniello (00:02)
Welcome to the Exceptional Educators podcast by FrenalyticsEDU where innovation meets inclusion and education. I'm your co-host, Matt Giovanniello, the CEO and co-founder of Frenalytics. At Frenalytics we put special education and English language learners front and center.
Our award-winning FrenalyticsEDU platform helps streamline progress monitoring, improve communication and compliance, and offers truly personalized learning to your students of all abilities. Each episode of our podcast features candid conversations with district and school leaders, classroom changemakers, edtech founders, and industry executives.
all dedicated to transforming learning for each student, especially our learners with unique abilities. With a focus on extraordinary educators and the exceptional students they serve, we explore the latest in special education, accessible technology, and inclusive leadership. In this episode, exceptional educators is exceptionally thrilled to welcome Lenora Morris, the Chief of Student Services and Accreditation, at the South Panola School District of Mississippi. With a tenured background, spending classroom time as a special education teacher and instructional coach,
all the way to administrative positions, including special ed supervisor and special ed director, Lenora is committed to building systems that work for all learners. From special ed to MTSS, Lenora's leadership focuses on creating equitable access, strengthening student services, and helping educators deliver on the promise of inclusive education every single day. Lenora, thank you so much for joining us as your inaugural podcast appearance. It is so great to have you on the show today.
Lenora Morris (01:28)
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here with you all.
Matt Giovanniello (01:32)
Absolutely, Lenora. I would love to pose an opening question to you. I'm so curious, what brought you into this education space? What is your why? What got you here? What's keeping you here? And what's getting you excited for the road ahead in education?
Lenora Morris (01:45)
So it's funny that you asked that question. When I initially started college, I wanted to be a speech language pathologist. However, after ⁓ working some hours for this community service at a regional center that serves children in North Mississippi and adults who have severe disabilities, I decided to change my major to special education.
However, they mirror each other. So I not lose any college hours when I decided to change from a Speech and Language Pathology major to a Special Education major. And so ⁓ the impact of ⁓ serving students with disabilities is life-changing. It allows you to see students' growth from ⁓ early ages to adulthood, where I still have students that I taught that are now adults that I still have relationships either with them.
or their parents depending on ⁓ their functionality as adults now. And so it's just a work of heart that has allowed me to learn so much for embracing people who have disabilities that have some things that are challenges, however it has allowed me to see so many of them succeed.
Matt Giovanniello (03:07)
That is so heartening, Lenora. It must motivate you every single day. You must have touched upon thousands of lives by this point over your decades of experience in special education. And the fact that it served as a calling to you from the get-go, from the moment you entered college, is just so cool. We need more people committed like you to this space. But I'm just appreciative that we have you here to talk all about it. And the fact that you started as an SLP, you're like SLP's neighbor in terms of your title and the role that you play.
in serving students who have speech and other related needs in special education. So thanks for staying in this space. I'm very curious. You have a lot of titles that you've held over the years. Aside from the one that you're holding right now, if you had to be partial, which one would you say was your favorite and why? I'm so curious which role you enjoy the most.
Lenora Morris (03:49)
So I think I'm very partial to my first beginning of administration where I was an instructional coach, which allowed me to be ⁓ a leader, teach still as instructional leader, teacher leader with dealing with first year special education teachers, trying to ⁓ teach them their roles of not only the compliance task, but also the instructional side and building their capacity and trying to retain them as educators.
And it was allowed me to be non-supervisory where I was not per se evaluating them, but providing those strategies to be successful in their classrooms with their students as well as parents.
Matt Giovanniello (04:31)
That's awesome. It's like almost like an in-between role where you're able to work with students directly still. You see the immediate impact that the training you're giving on those staff on those students. And it like it must be like very motivating. And yet you're able to see the bigger picture of the impact at the district and system level without necessarily holding like chief title. I mean, now you do. So you know the difference. That was a cool progression.
Lenora Morris (04:52)
Yes, yes, yes. You got to see people grow and flourish.
Matt Giovanniello (04:58)
Yeah.
Lenora Morris (04:58)
especially with the support and ⁓ Even though it's only for one year that you would coach them a lot of them felt like even after their first year they would still attend our new teacher professional development because they said they still needed their support and so i would tell them you know like okay you don't have to but if you want to attend you're welcome to attend if you have that much ⁓ feeling that i i like the support that i received the previous years and i want to continue to attend
because they felt like being in that setting, was non-biased and they could ask questions that veteran teachers would not be like, well, why don't they know that? And so it was comfortability for them, ⁓ making sure that they still remain with that support mechanism despite that after achieving that first year, felt like they need, and some people even attended up to three to five years because they felt that they were still novice and they wanted that particular support that
supported novice teachers.
Matt Giovanniello (06:00)
I think that support is critical for new career educators, especially in special education. And if your area is anything like up here in the Northeast, we often hear from new special education teachers that while the education component of their college or their master's program was great, it didn't necessarily prepare them for the realities of what a special education classroom can be like. I don't know what amount of training could prepare you until you're in the classroom, but the fact that you're able to offer that safe and welcoming
Lenora Morris (06:26)
I just did.
Matt Giovanniello (06:29)
and accommodating space for them to be like, hey, I'm no expert, I may never be, but like help me out. You know, it's year one, it's day one of year one, like help me out. ⁓ So that's awesome to hear that you have that support in place. A related thought that I wanted to ask you about, Lenora, is before we started recording, you were telling me how you have this really unique perspective of serving for a long time in urban school environments and now in your current role of more rural school environments. And so...
I'd love for you to unpack like the biggest differences that you saw. Let's stay on the topic of training for now. The in what you saw in your urban setting roles versus what you're seeing in your rural setting roles as it relates to training new teachers and special education. How do they compare? How do they contrast? What have you seen that works well that regardless of the size or location of school, you might give us suggestions to others who are trying to build other training.
Lenora Morris (07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, So I will say in the rural capacity, you are stretched between multitasking. And so a lot of times in the rural setting, you may not be able to just focus key in on one thing, for example, like we said, novice teachers where you're dealing with novice veteran teachers, along with several other tasks that may relate to your job, but it's just not one specific.
item. And so in an urban setting, you're going to have multi-layers of support, larger ⁓ systems in place, as well as a larger staff capacity that allows you to key in on such things as working with those first-year teachers. And so a lot of times in a rural setting, you've got to pick of what your top priority needs and how do I still do the work but make sure that this
set of novice teachers are getting the support and professional development they need. And so in a rural setting, you have to really strategize your time and be time conscious of how do I make sure that these people's needs are getting met along with my veteran teachers who still need professional development as well. So it's a lot of
time management as well as setting like a schedule of professional development and making sure that people know just because you're a veteran does not mean that you cannot attend this professional development that I've set aside for novice teachers. Whereas in an urban setting you have the staffing as well as
more resources to say this person can be responsible for providing the professional development to our first year novice teachers and that is specifically dedicated to that set of teachers. And so just the difference is ⁓ staffing, ⁓ having not just multi
things that you're responsible for that you can dedicate this particular time, professional development, calendar for ⁓ novice teachers versus veteran teachers.
Matt Giovanniello (09:34)
That's really interesting. I suspect, though, Lenora, that, I mean, you were at Memphis City schools for 17 years? 17 years. So, like, you've seen things there, right? And while urban schools, definitionally and traditionally...
Lenora Morris (09:41)
Yes.
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (09:49)
have and statistically have more resources, more is not always better. So I'm curious if you think back to like, okay, we had a lot more resources that meant this, but these were the challenges that we had to overcome. Similarly, like those challenges just maybe aren't as present in rural schools. I'm curious if you back to that, like what those things were that you were able to successfully overcome, even though you have more resources, it's like, you know, more resources, more problems too. What did that look like in your life?
Lenora Morris (09:53)
Alright.
Right. So I would say that ⁓ when you're in a rural setting, nine times out of 10, you know someone in that child's particular family that you can get in contact with, as well as the social economic status looks different from urban ⁓ social economic status versus rural. They all need the same ⁓ tools and support. However,
the amount may be differently in how it's done or how it's communicated, how do you reach that particular parent, how do you reach that student may look differently from being in a rural environment.
⁓ I will also say that sometimes less is more, meaning that in a rural setting, it can sometimes be a little bit more personable because those ⁓ families will reach out quicker to let you know what their needs are than being in an urban environment where sometimes people may not want to let you know this is what we have going on, these are our barriers, and that you're trying to navigate how do I make contact with them to let them know that we realize
that something is needed ⁓ for your particular child or children in our district.
Matt Giovanniello (11:27)
I think those are a couple of really important pieces. I'm glad you're making them. And it's also reminding me of like a very related discussion we were having just before this of your ability to reach families and support them in every which way I imagine feels a little more within reach when you're in a smaller setting compared to a large urban city too. If you have the structures in place, you can reach them at justice effectively, but that's a big if in a big urban setting. Like you can kind of get your hands a little dirtier and reach mom and dad or reach a parent or guardian. know, like just call them on the phone.
Lenora Morris (11:55)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (11:55)
That's just like the way that you are able to kind of conduct yourself a little bit more in a smaller, more rural setting, which I imagine you can.
Lenora Morris (12:01)
Right, and often stability because in an urban setting you may have a family that moves every 30 days when rent is due. Whereas in a rural setting, ⁓ most of time those parents are going to stay where they've been for years. It's very rare that they move. But in an urban setting, they may move every 30 days. And so just trying to keep up with
where are they, how do we find them, and they may move school to school from different parts of to different parts of the city. And so navigating that, how do we finally find them? And sometimes through an incident may occur where you finally or they may come to say, hey, we moved and you've been trying to find them for weeks, but you are going based upon the current numbers, telephone numbers that are in the system as well as the addresses that are not
operable, whereas in a rural setting you can always track down usually someone as well as having attendance officers who help in their process as well.
Matt Giovanniello (13:03)
That's really interesting. And I think you're making a broader point here where all of these additional components are on top of the academic services that you're providing to your students, which is like the basis of a school, but there's so much more farther reaching impact and implications that.
leading a school system has than just the academics. We need to worry about attendance, about behaviors, about the mental wellness, about the food security or insecurity of a student. Whether they're physically even able to show up, are they in town anymore? Like if they disappear tomorrow, what's going on with them? And I think that, you know, the increased onus and responsibility that district leaders such as yourself are taking on, regardless of the setting, is imperative to servicing students. And as you know, I don't need to like remind you about this on our
it tends to be disproportionately higher when we're thinking about our students' special education too. like the gravity and the importance of it is just that much higher and more important. And I appreciate you all for being so committed to it. For that reason alone, it's like we need to serve as students, whole child. It's not just academics here.
Lenora Morris (14:05)
Yeah, and I have to remind teachers that, know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs and also ACES, adult childhood experiences, that often we tend to forget when in that learning environment that...
So many of our students come with some type of trauma that you may not reach them for as a learner because you're having to deal with social emotional behavior, things that have transpired either prior to them entering your classroom or while they are there. And then to be cognizant of those things that transpire unfortunately amongst children.
Matt Giovanniello (14:44)
Right, right. It's like, and if we don't cater to the social emotional needs of a student, they will not be in a position where they're ready to learn anything. Maybe not even go up. They know where they are for them. Exactly. So that's a good kind of segue into another topic I wanted to explore. We know very well from research and the reality of this panning out over the past, maybe five, 10, even 15 years within special education, that if we don't have strong
Lenora Morris (14:50)
Right. ⁓
Yes, VI3.
Matt Giovanniello (15:12)
direct and supplemental instruction in a properly cultivated MTSS framework that we may be not fully meeting the needs of a student regardless of the presence of a disability. And so I'm curious whether we're thinking about SEB, whether we're thinking about academics, attendance, other non-academic pieces of MTSS. Where do you see, Eleonora, the intersection of a strong MTSS system coinciding with strong supports that students can receive if they do in fact have a 504 or an IEP?
Lenora Morris (15:40)
They all go together, it's collaboration and knowing those ⁓ key members of VED. ⁓ So having strong TST teams in buildings.
But it all starts with the leader of the building that they understand the process as well as having someone in the building to lead it effectively because often you'll see the process happen. But sometimes you run into where people don't know what are my roles and responsibilities and making sure that everyone understands it and the flow of it because a lot of things can happen during that process. Sometimes where a student like they'll start the process and stops
nothing ever happens. And so just making sure that everyone understands the roles and responsibilities of it and how the flow should be of the process. That ⁓ you're not working in silos where leadership, the TST people, the teachers understand it, the specialist department where they all collaborate and have collaborative teams regarding ⁓ like those students that are in the process and having meetings to discuss the data.
if you're moving towards possibly looking at an evaluation for the student as well as keeping the parent informed of the process because often parents don't understand or know that this is what is transpiring with my child and you get to the point where oh we're about to evaluate your child and they don't know what has happened previously to get to the point of having an evaluation.
Matt Giovanniello (17:11)
Right, and in school buildings, you all are the experts. Parents aren't necessarily experts, although we want them to be, and sometimes we expect them to be. And that translation, I imagine, can be really challenging. I'm curious, over your past few years, since starting at South Pennoa, how MTSS has evolved and how you've built upon the structures you already had to make that communication between school and home stronger, more effective, and more easily understood for parents.
Lenora Morris (17:38)
I will say this is not a perfect process. It's still a work in progress because I will say upon my entering, I think there was a lack of communication amongst the various people in buildings and the process looked different in every building. And so one of my things was I wanted to be streamlined that everybody had the same expectations, the same ⁓ flow process because often sometimes when a child leads one building to the next, something that happened in the
building may or may not happen in the next building, but to make sure that the same communication, same verbage was used where I didn't want this building using a type of intervention that the next building didn't use because how can you figure out if the child is needing a particular evaluation or if it's just a lack of the process being implemented with fidelity or not.
Matt Giovanniello (18:32)
Right. And when we're thinking about a district that has over 4,200 students, six buildings, about 900 students are on IEPs even more with 504s on top of that number, the separation between buildings is inevitable if there's not that foundation, that bedrock at the district level and setting uniform expectations. Everybody's just going to go do their own thing. And that's where the continuous nature of MTSS really starts to fall apart. So I very much understand that.
Lenora Morris (19:01)
And I saw that and people were frustrated about this. And so I was like, we're going to have to make some amendments to this because you're saying one thing, but the verbiage is totally different at another building. that makes parents question, do they really know what should be transpiring with my child? And so I was like, we've got to clean this up, talk the same language, be on the same page to make sure that the student is receiving what they need.
Matt Giovanniello (19:02)
I still.
It's like left hand's not talking to the right. It's like, what's going on over there with you people?
Lenora Morris (19:34)
You know, I'd say that in education we tend to get a little bit territorial. And so, ⁓ and I'm like, we all have to communicate because the common goal is making sure that the students' needs are met and that they're receiving what they need. And so if we can't be on the same page, it's going to be quite evident in our data for our students.
Matt Giovanniello (19:54)
Totally. So when you think back to even a couple years back, or we're thinking about the end of this current academic year, what were some of specific things that you put in place, whether it was training, system, software, et cetera, to help improve upon the shared knowledge, shared understanding, shared communication styles for MTSS within your district?
Lenora Morris (20:17)
So I will say that it needed something to be in the black and white. And so I've learned through many years that sometimes, even as educators, we don't want a lot of stuff. We don't want to have to read this whole big manual of procedures. So I was like, let's do flow charts. A flow chart is always worse because if you're a visual learner,
There you have something that you can look at that tells you step by step. And so between myself and the MTSS coordinator, we work on flow charts that would help principals as well as TST leads, lead teachers and teachers. Because when you're providing instruction daily, that is the last thing that you want is another something for you to have to read a manual. Well, if we can give you some basic technique steps.
that you can ask your questions from, make sure that you're following that particular flowchart. It will help all of us to see where there's nothing missed in regards to the process. And so that's one of the things that we implemented. I say just let's create some flowcharts that we can revise from.
because principals have ⁓ a lot of roles and responsibilities outside of this, as well as those TST leads. And this will help us ⁓ make sure that everyone understands the process, as well as making sure that the process is followed.
Matt Giovanniello (21:45)
And just for our listeners awareness, define TST for us and the role they play in your.
Lenora Morris (21:50)
of the teacher support teams.
that a lot of school districts use RTI as a term, Responsive Intervention, MTSS, multi-tiered ⁓ student support, it's all the same thing. ⁓ The processes may look different district to district or state to state, but it's your intervention services you're providing for those students who may end up being evaluated as students with disabilities. However, my sermon is, it's like if I said, okay, I wanna lose 10 pounds and I decide,
to do the Atkins diet? Well, I started the diet, but I don't see the results after six weeks of implementing the diet. Is it the diet or me, the implementation, how I implemented the diet? And it's the same thing with MTSS or RTI. Like, is it being implemented with fidelity and correctly?
But I will say that good tier one instruction is the main thing and so sometimes as districts don't want to really focus on do we have a tier one instructional problem or is this something that we do have as many students who need to be referred for an evaluation but good first teaching is ⁓ number one and tier one looking at tier one instruction.
Matt Giovanniello (23:07)
You got that right. I'm so glad we're covering that. Let's, a little bit, because you're bringing up your special education population, a group that's near and dear to our hearts on this podcast. I want to go through some numbers. We talked a little bit about them before, but you had shared with us that you have close to 900 students with IEPs, some additional with 504s. Definitionally, that's considered above average for the 15 % or so kind of.
nationwide I guess expectation of students enrolled in public schools with disabilities you're about like a 20 to 21 percent IEP enrollment percentage.
That said, when you started a few years ago, you were under watch for over identifying students. So I'd love to learn about what you've done over the past couple of years to help bring that number down in a not only sustainable way, but an appropriate way for students while ensuring that those who still need to be receiving services are doing so. But then like lessons you've learned from things that you've done to exit students or properly refer them throughout DSS. What did you do well that we learned from?
Lenora Morris (24:05)
So looking at our tier one instruction, also when I first came, every building was using a different intervention. And so I was like, we can't really gauge the students of what they need because every intervention tool looks differently. And so.
I will say people didn't like it, but I was like, we're going to use one intervention tool because when this building is using something in another manner, I can't look at the data to say that this child actually has some type of need that we need to evaluate them. And so just making a change from having these multi different intervention tools to having one where the data would roll with their student if they left one building and went to the next has helped with the over identification.
Also looking at like the data from year to year with the child. Like has this been a constant thing for us? Their ⁓ scores looking at state ⁓ testing scores. Also looking at our benchmark assessments saying like maybe there is an issue here. Also ⁓ just good teacher student observations to see day to day how the child is performing.
⁓ Also considering with child find like parent concerns, ⁓ which have been a lot that we've had parents to say, I think something may be wrong with my child and I want to possibly consider any evaluation. But just having also data meetings with in buildings to look at that weekly testing data, weekly information with students, not only academically, but also social emotional as well.
Matt Giovanniello (25:51)
Totally. So I'm glad you brought up all those examples of data. Give us a visual a little bit as to how your teams are coming together to look at that data, where that's being stored, how they're collecting that. Like, what does a data review look like? It sounds like it's happening and happening definitely better than it was even a couple of years ago, but happening by any person's understanding and definition of empty assets, it's happening quite well. So what does it look like, like functionally over the course of a week, a month, a school year?
in terms of how your staff are looking at data. Like, do they have data meetings? What do those look like?
Lenora Morris (26:23)
Yes, every principal has data meetings as well as in those PLC. They're reviewing student data as well, looking at the benchmark data from every nine weeks as well as the students previous data from the previous year to make comparisons to see like is there a sign of improvement or is the student decreasing. Also looking at the standards of mastery assessments to see are the students meeting this particular standard or not.
as well as just daily instruction being teachers gauging have they learned this concept versus something that needs to be retaught have they mastered it. And so that's in buildings that you'll see that if you go building the building being done. Also we have what we have.
⁓ every nine weeks meetings with principals, one-on-one individual data conversations to look at their data for its particular standards as well as particular students. so ⁓ seeing improvements in comparing grade to grade and subject to subject for is what the data looks like.
Matt Giovanniello (27:34)
That's awesome. Much easier said than done, as you know. But that's amazing to hear those very concrete examples of the where, the how, the why, and a little bit of some maybe typical scenarios of if a student's not improving, this is what we try and do. Or if a student is improving according to plan, then great. This is what their families and they can expect next, and their staff can expect next.
Lenora Morris (27:57)
And having in that TST those data meetings and making the data decision like this child needs to move from tier one to tier two and sometimes tier two to tier three. But looking at your timelines and making sure you're adhering to those timelines of like, okay, we have not seen any progression. So we think we're gonna move them to a different ⁓ tiered intervention.
Matt Giovanniello (28:18)
Right, and the fact that this isn't a life sentence, this is something that we're going to try for, let's say, eight to 12 weeks, see what the response of the intervention is, and then we evaluate from there. Like, this isn't, you for the next 13 years of your life, like, this is it.
Lenora Morris (28:34)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (28:34)
That's awesome. So, one more topic I want to explore with you and this goes back to your actual title.
⁓ I want to talk about IEP compliance and turning it from kind of a barrier or like, ugh, we're doing this all for compliance and compliance only, like why are we getting caught in this, to reframing it as a catalyst. And I think that you have done that really well, not only in your current role, but in your titles and districts past. How are you channeling your state and federal mandated compliance requirements as it relates to special education and saying, hey, we can use this as a mechanism to innovate and actually think outside the box rather than be a barrier?
Lenora Morris (28:50)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (29:11)
How do you explore that?
Lenora Morris (29:13)
So compliance, and I probably will end the conversation with this, ⁓ it's one of those things that either you love it or you hate it, but it's a part of the job. And so I have to credit of having some excellent special ed mentors who had been in a career for 20, 30 plus years who helped me navigate how do you meet.
that dual capacity of compliance as well as instruction. And I tell people, I used to tell my teachers, I know most of you all very well, it's a part of learning your staff, and knowing their capabilities, their pros as well as cons, but building capacity to enhance whatever you feel like their weaknesses are.
And so part of the role of being a special ed teacher, you have a two-fold job. You have the compliance that allows you to meet federal and state mandates, and you have an instructional part that increases your academics in your school districts. so ⁓ compliance and accreditation are often viewed as checklists necessarily, but it's limited.
So I kind of approach them differently as a powerful framework for innovation, continuous improvement, as well as equity, because compliance is something that can always be improved. And so when you have, if you've served in the capacity of a special ed director, you know that you're going to always be monitored. just depends year to year what they may ask. And so...
Getting people not to look at compliance as a constraint and then it's just a roadmap for building stronger, more responsive systems that will also improve your student outcomes. If you can get that mindset amongst your staff, it will be something of not a per se avoidance to them because a lot of times teachers, they avoid it because it's work. It requires actual work that you're meeting those particular.
I.D.A. mandates as well as your state mandates and it's your money thing as well as being funded properly. And so in my leadership experience particularly in student services in SPED, ⁓ I've refrained from compliance by focusing it on its intent rather than just requirements because it's something that
you want to do well because it affects your student outcomes and making sure that parents understand what it looks like for is being compliant and making sure that IEP is individualized for that student's needs. And so.
They're grounded, those IDEA state and state accountability standards, they're grounded in ensuring access, equity, and fairness of all things and making sure that students are afforded those particular things that will have them successful. Because if you think about it, depending on when a child enters special education, that IEP is something that nine times out of 10 that they will have, they will carry them out from pre-K, 12, or whenever they enter the program, as well as
if they attend college or a trade school that can be implemented as well. And so making sure that you start them off well.
because you want them to succeed despite them having some type of disability that may be limiting their cognitive or even their speech language or social emotional needs. And so a lot of times ⁓ I would do random foul checks because I think that once teachers know that you're going to be checking that they will enhance their ability when it comes to making sure that they're meeting those compliance. And so daily operations by creating that
culture where it's continuous improvement ⁓ is the norm. Like it's not something that is going to be an I got you. Then you know to expect this and that this is the normalcy for us of what it should look like, what the expectations are. And then aligning the professional development with compliance priorities and then making sure that you empower the staff to see themselves as contributors to both the compliance as well as innovation.
And so also as a former spirit director, I knew those teacher leaders who could lead the process, whereas instead of me being the person to review it, that you all come together as teachers to review each other's because there's nothing like peer accountability where you can have those courageous conversations and say, hey, I think you may have missed your mark on this. Go back and review it to make sure that it is compliant and telling your colleague, you know, this is not correct and this is the way to fix it.
Because sometimes when I would come in, they would see it as, she's trying to get me or catch me. Whereas when you're working with a colleague, it's not a bias where you don't feel like, this person is here trying to be punitive to me and my IEP paperwork. And so you're making sure that teams understand the why behind compliance.
that they become more invested, creative, and it being solution oriented. And also, ⁓ I tell people just like this, a teacher has a responsibility of it as well, the GNS teacher too, because they have to implement those accommodations and modifications. So everybody that touches their child has some responsibility in making sure that the IEP is implemented correctly. And so cross-functional as well as innovation from the head,
the principal to assistant principals as well as all those other teachers that are involved with a particular student. And I will say lastly that compliance is not about avoiding risk and it's about maximizing impact because you're going to see on the secondary level how the implementation of that IEP will lead to the student hopefully graduating with a regular diploma, hopefully if it's appropriate, as well as those post-secondary outcomes
transition that they're able to go into society and function either with support or with limited support. And so ⁓ what you're building is a roadmap to success as a child gets older and it's your K-12 education program.
Matt Giovanniello (35:28)
Leonard, I think you've made so many good points just now. The biggest one that I took away is compliance is often perceived perhaps as like an authoritative position. And yet it doesn't need to be. think when you're adding that sense of collaboration, especially amongst teachers who are otherwise being graded or, you know, overseen or observed or, you know, what have you, what word that compliance normally comes with, like,
It's not only more enjoyable, it's not only a shared purpose, but also there's a lot of learning that happens without cooperation. And then it doesn't need to seem so dictatorial, like a dictatorship. Like it's not like you must do this. it's, we're all understanding the broader, greater purpose ⁓ that this very necessary role has ⁓ for a functioning school system. I think that's one thing that I took away from what you shared just now. Another is...
If special education is run right, which is a big thing to ask, but when it's run right, it looks something along the lines of let's identify early, let's try and identify often and make sure that the student gets all of the necessary supports from the beginning of their educational journey so that by the time they do graduate, they get that deployment. They're graduating on time. They're going to college. That makes sense. They're going to trade school. They're getting a career, whatever that looks like. And so we can set them up for success, just like their gen ed counterparts. And that's how we know that special ed was so successful.
And that's exactly why we're all doing this. But then the realities of, okay, we need it for funding, we need it for reimbursement. We need to make sure that we have our staffing for next year. We need to do it so that we can demonstrate our compliance with state and federal laws. And we need to demonstrate it so we can show that, hey, if we're telling parents these students are receiving special services, is it actually worthwhile for them? And are we doing it in the spirit of that student success? So there's a lot of, you know, prescriptive black and white, to use your phrase earlier, mandates. But there's a right way to implement compliance and maybe
a bunch of not so right ways. And I'm glad that you helped us see the difference between what a good compliance driven special education program could look like.
Lenora Morris (37:26)
Yes, yes. And you know, sometimes we all have barriers, but you have to figure out like how, despite having these barriers, how can we still do the work? What things can we put in place for the betterment of all? Not only the child, but the parent as well. And oftentimes, their parent doesn't know how to navigate it. And so that's our responsibility to help them navigate it.
Matt Giovanniello (37:51)
Lenora, we are at the end of our time for today's episode. I'm so sad because I have even more questions to ask you, but we'll need to talk to each other another time. As we wrap up today's episode, I'd like to ask you one final question we love to ask each of our guests. If you'd like to take a minute to reflect on it, please feel free to do so. The question for you, Lenora, is what does being an exceptional educator or being an exceptional leader mean to you?
Lenora Morris (38:12)
wow. So I will say it is work of the heart, H-E-A-R-T, as well as hard work, H-A-R-D, being innovative, ⁓ resilient.
Matt Giovanniello (38:13)
You
Lenora Morris (38:29)
⁓ giving of yourself, of your time, your talent, as well as your efforts, and seeing the bigger picture and allowing people who have been in the profession, who are ex-linenated what they do to guide you, encourage you to steady enhance your capabilities, as well as making sure that you
keep building your craft with effective professional development, attending things. I've had the opportunity to attend various conferences that ⁓ allowed me to see things differently and expose me to things that I probably would not have been exposed to if I would have not attended. And just making sure that you stay current and that you continue to enhance your abilities.
Matt Giovanniello (39:14)
And I think you're doing exactly all that. So Newsflash, you are exceptional and you are inspiring a whole group of upcoming exceptional students, exceptional educators and exceptional leaders. So, Winnara, thank you. It was such a pleasure chatting with you today. And for the 20 plus years you've spent committed to special education, and hopefully many more in the future, thank you for serving all of the students and the staff in the ways that you have across the borders, which is so, so cool. We don't hear that every day.
Lenora Morris (39:17)
Thank you.
Thank you all for having me, I've enjoyed it.
Matt Giovanniello (39:41)
Absolutely. To everybody listening to today's episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast, thank you again for joining us and we look forward to catching you on our next one. All right, that was fun, right? I hope you enjoyed it.
Lenora Morris (39:49)
Take care. ⁓
It was fun. It was fun. Listen, it was like I was talking to somebody regularly. I didn't feel it's like, OK, I got to stick with my script or skip the fake key to everything that you sent me.
Matt Giovanniello (40:02)
Good. was, that was, good, good, good. I'm glad that was the goal. I'm glad that you feel comfortable, but I'm glad that you were able to incorporate all those really important points towards the end. your notes were like, they, got put to good use. That was so cool. ⁓
Lenora Morris (40:17)
Okay, well thank you so much. Looking forward to seeing it published and all of it.
Matt Giovanniello (40:22)
I know, two more quick things for you. The first, we're gonna do that quick introduction. I'll remind you of that. whenever you're ready, hi, I'm Wendora Morris. Go through your title, your district, and then I blank in relation to exceptional educators, exceptional leaders, exceptional students. And then after that, I'm just gonna have you stick around for one more minute to make sure the recording comes to life. So whenever you're ready, time for introduction.
Lenora Morris (40:26)
Okay.
Okay. Okay.
Okay ready. Hello my name is Lenora Morris and I serve as a chief of student services and accreditation for a school district in Mississippi. However I've been involved in special education for over 20 years as a teacher, special ed instructional coach, special ed supervisor and director and now to my current role I've had the opportunity to teach a gifted education as well.
and work in urban and rural education environments. ⁓ I would describe myself as being innovative, leader, accountable, ⁓ as well as mission driven to make sure that students have successful outcomes, as well as passionate about the role of special education.
Matt Giovanniello (41:38)
I love it and exceptional. One more descriptor. ⁓ there you go. I love it. Very cool. All right.
Lenora Morris (41:41)
and of course exceptional.
Welcome to the Exceptional Educators podcast by FrenalyticsEDU where innovation meets inclusion and education. I'm your co-host, Matt Giovanniello, the CEO and co-founder of Frenalytics. At Frenalytics we put special education and English language learners front and center.
Our award-winning FrenalyticsEDU platform helps streamline progress monitoring, improve communication and compliance, and offers truly personalized learning to your students of all abilities. Each episode of our podcast features candid conversations with district and school leaders, classroom changemakers, edtech founders, and industry executives.
all dedicated to transforming learning for each student, especially our learners with unique abilities. With a focus on extraordinary educators and the exceptional students they serve, we explore the latest in special education, accessible technology, and inclusive leadership. In this episode, exceptional educators is exceptionally thrilled to welcome Lenora Morris, the Chief of Student Services and Accreditation, at the South Panola School District of Mississippi. With a tenured background, spending classroom time as a special education teacher and instructional coach,
all the way to administrative positions, including special ed supervisor and special ed director, Lenora is committed to building systems that work for all learners. From special ed to MTSS, Lenora's leadership focuses on creating equitable access, strengthening student services, and helping educators deliver on the promise of inclusive education every single day. Lenora, thank you so much for joining us as your inaugural podcast appearance. It is so great to have you on the show today.
Lenora Morris (01:28)
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here with you all.
Matt Giovanniello (01:32)
Absolutely, Lenora. I would love to pose an opening question to you. I'm so curious, what brought you into this education space? What is your why? What got you here? What's keeping you here? And what's getting you excited for the road ahead in education?
Lenora Morris (01:45)
So it's funny that you asked that question. When I initially started college, I wanted to be a speech language pathologist. However, after ⁓ working some hours for this community service at a regional center that serves children in North Mississippi and adults who have severe disabilities, I decided to change my major to special education.
However, they mirror each other. So I not lose any college hours when I decided to change from a Speech and Language Pathology major to a Special Education major. And so ⁓ the impact of ⁓ serving students with disabilities is life-changing. It allows you to see students' growth from ⁓ early ages to adulthood, where I still have students that I taught that are now adults that I still have relationships either with them.
or their parents depending on ⁓ their functionality as adults now. And so it's just a work of heart that has allowed me to learn so much for embracing people who have disabilities that have some things that are challenges, however it has allowed me to see so many of them succeed.
Matt Giovanniello (03:07)
That is so heartening, Lenora. It must motivate you every single day. You must have touched upon thousands of lives by this point over your decades of experience in special education. And the fact that it served as a calling to you from the get-go, from the moment you entered college, is just so cool. We need more people committed like you to this space. But I'm just appreciative that we have you here to talk all about it. And the fact that you started as an SLP, you're like SLP's neighbor in terms of your title and the role that you play.
in serving students who have speech and other related needs in special education. So thanks for staying in this space. I'm very curious. You have a lot of titles that you've held over the years. Aside from the one that you're holding right now, if you had to be partial, which one would you say was your favorite and why? I'm so curious which role you enjoy the most.
Lenora Morris (03:49)
So I think I'm very partial to my first beginning of administration where I was an instructional coach, which allowed me to be ⁓ a leader, teach still as instructional leader, teacher leader with dealing with first year special education teachers, trying to ⁓ teach them their roles of not only the compliance task, but also the instructional side and building their capacity and trying to retain them as educators.
And it was allowed me to be non-supervisory where I was not per se evaluating them, but providing those strategies to be successful in their classrooms with their students as well as parents.
Matt Giovanniello (04:31)
That's awesome. It's like almost like an in-between role where you're able to work with students directly still. You see the immediate impact that the training you're giving on those staff on those students. And it like it must be like very motivating. And yet you're able to see the bigger picture of the impact at the district and system level without necessarily holding like chief title. I mean, now you do. So you know the difference. That was a cool progression.
Lenora Morris (04:52)
Yes, yes, yes. You got to see people grow and flourish.
Matt Giovanniello (04:58)
Yeah.
Lenora Morris (04:58)
especially with the support and ⁓ Even though it's only for one year that you would coach them a lot of them felt like even after their first year they would still attend our new teacher professional development because they said they still needed their support and so i would tell them you know like okay you don't have to but if you want to attend you're welcome to attend if you have that much ⁓ feeling that i i like the support that i received the previous years and i want to continue to attend
because they felt like being in that setting, was non-biased and they could ask questions that veteran teachers would not be like, well, why don't they know that? And so it was comfortability for them, ⁓ making sure that they still remain with that support mechanism despite that after achieving that first year, felt like they need, and some people even attended up to three to five years because they felt that they were still novice and they wanted that particular support that
supported novice teachers.
Matt Giovanniello (06:00)
I think that support is critical for new career educators, especially in special education. And if your area is anything like up here in the Northeast, we often hear from new special education teachers that while the education component of their college or their master's program was great, it didn't necessarily prepare them for the realities of what a special education classroom can be like. I don't know what amount of training could prepare you until you're in the classroom, but the fact that you're able to offer that safe and welcoming
Lenora Morris (06:26)
I just did.
Matt Giovanniello (06:29)
and accommodating space for them to be like, hey, I'm no expert, I may never be, but like help me out. You know, it's year one, it's day one of year one, like help me out. ⁓ So that's awesome to hear that you have that support in place. A related thought that I wanted to ask you about, Lenora, is before we started recording, you were telling me how you have this really unique perspective of serving for a long time in urban school environments and now in your current role of more rural school environments. And so...
I'd love for you to unpack like the biggest differences that you saw. Let's stay on the topic of training for now. The in what you saw in your urban setting roles versus what you're seeing in your rural setting roles as it relates to training new teachers and special education. How do they compare? How do they contrast? What have you seen that works well that regardless of the size or location of school, you might give us suggestions to others who are trying to build other training.
Lenora Morris (07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, So I will say in the rural capacity, you are stretched between multitasking. And so a lot of times in the rural setting, you may not be able to just focus key in on one thing, for example, like we said, novice teachers where you're dealing with novice veteran teachers, along with several other tasks that may relate to your job, but it's just not one specific.
item. And so in an urban setting, you're going to have multi-layers of support, larger ⁓ systems in place, as well as a larger staff capacity that allows you to key in on such things as working with those first-year teachers. And so a lot of times in a rural setting, you've got to pick of what your top priority needs and how do I still do the work but make sure that this
set of novice teachers are getting the support and professional development they need. And so in a rural setting, you have to really strategize your time and be time conscious of how do I make sure that these people's needs are getting met along with my veteran teachers who still need professional development as well. So it's a lot of
time management as well as setting like a schedule of professional development and making sure that people know just because you're a veteran does not mean that you cannot attend this professional development that I've set aside for novice teachers. Whereas in an urban setting you have the staffing as well as
more resources to say this person can be responsible for providing the professional development to our first year novice teachers and that is specifically dedicated to that set of teachers. And so just the difference is ⁓ staffing, ⁓ having not just multi
things that you're responsible for that you can dedicate this particular time, professional development, calendar for ⁓ novice teachers versus veteran teachers.
Matt Giovanniello (09:34)
That's really interesting. I suspect, though, Lenora, that, I mean, you were at Memphis City schools for 17 years? 17 years. So, like, you've seen things there, right? And while urban schools, definitionally and traditionally...
Lenora Morris (09:41)
Yes.
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (09:49)
have and statistically have more resources, more is not always better. So I'm curious if you think back to like, okay, we had a lot more resources that meant this, but these were the challenges that we had to overcome. Similarly, like those challenges just maybe aren't as present in rural schools. I'm curious if you back to that, like what those things were that you were able to successfully overcome, even though you have more resources, it's like, you know, more resources, more problems too. What did that look like in your life?
Lenora Morris (09:53)
Alright.
Right. So I would say that ⁓ when you're in a rural setting, nine times out of 10, you know someone in that child's particular family that you can get in contact with, as well as the social economic status looks different from urban ⁓ social economic status versus rural. They all need the same ⁓ tools and support. However,
the amount may be differently in how it's done or how it's communicated, how do you reach that particular parent, how do you reach that student may look differently from being in a rural environment.
⁓ I will also say that sometimes less is more, meaning that in a rural setting, it can sometimes be a little bit more personable because those ⁓ families will reach out quicker to let you know what their needs are than being in an urban environment where sometimes people may not want to let you know this is what we have going on, these are our barriers, and that you're trying to navigate how do I make contact with them to let them know that we realize
that something is needed ⁓ for your particular child or children in our district.
Matt Giovanniello (11:27)
I think those are a couple of really important pieces. I'm glad you're making them. And it's also reminding me of like a very related discussion we were having just before this of your ability to reach families and support them in every which way I imagine feels a little more within reach when you're in a smaller setting compared to a large urban city too. If you have the structures in place, you can reach them at justice effectively, but that's a big if in a big urban setting. Like you can kind of get your hands a little dirtier and reach mom and dad or reach a parent or guardian. know, like just call them on the phone.
Lenora Morris (11:55)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (11:55)
That's just like the way that you are able to kind of conduct yourself a little bit more in a smaller, more rural setting, which I imagine you can.
Lenora Morris (12:01)
Right, and often stability because in an urban setting you may have a family that moves every 30 days when rent is due. Whereas in a rural setting, ⁓ most of time those parents are going to stay where they've been for years. It's very rare that they move. But in an urban setting, they may move every 30 days. And so just trying to keep up with
where are they, how do we find them, and they may move school to school from different parts of to different parts of the city. And so navigating that, how do we finally find them? And sometimes through an incident may occur where you finally or they may come to say, hey, we moved and you've been trying to find them for weeks, but you are going based upon the current numbers, telephone numbers that are in the system as well as the addresses that are not
operable, whereas in a rural setting you can always track down usually someone as well as having attendance officers who help in their process as well.
Matt Giovanniello (13:03)
That's really interesting. And I think you're making a broader point here where all of these additional components are on top of the academic services that you're providing to your students, which is like the basis of a school, but there's so much more farther reaching impact and implications that.
leading a school system has than just the academics. We need to worry about attendance, about behaviors, about the mental wellness, about the food security or insecurity of a student. Whether they're physically even able to show up, are they in town anymore? Like if they disappear tomorrow, what's going on with them? And I think that, you know, the increased onus and responsibility that district leaders such as yourself are taking on, regardless of the setting, is imperative to servicing students. And as you know, I don't need to like remind you about this on our
it tends to be disproportionately higher when we're thinking about our students' special education too. like the gravity and the importance of it is just that much higher and more important. And I appreciate you all for being so committed to it. For that reason alone, it's like we need to serve as students, whole child. It's not just academics here.
Lenora Morris (14:05)
Yeah, and I have to remind teachers that, know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs and also ACES, adult childhood experiences, that often we tend to forget when in that learning environment that...
So many of our students come with some type of trauma that you may not reach them for as a learner because you're having to deal with social emotional behavior, things that have transpired either prior to them entering your classroom or while they are there. And then to be cognizant of those things that transpire unfortunately amongst children.
Matt Giovanniello (14:44)
Right, right. It's like, and if we don't cater to the social emotional needs of a student, they will not be in a position where they're ready to learn anything. Maybe not even go up. They know where they are for them. Exactly. So that's a good kind of segue into another topic I wanted to explore. We know very well from research and the reality of this panning out over the past, maybe five, 10, even 15 years within special education, that if we don't have strong
Lenora Morris (14:50)
Right. ⁓
Yes, VI3.
Matt Giovanniello (15:12)
direct and supplemental instruction in a properly cultivated MTSS framework that we may be not fully meeting the needs of a student regardless of the presence of a disability. And so I'm curious whether we're thinking about SEB, whether we're thinking about academics, attendance, other non-academic pieces of MTSS. Where do you see, Eleonora, the intersection of a strong MTSS system coinciding with strong supports that students can receive if they do in fact have a 504 or an IEP?
Lenora Morris (15:40)
They all go together, it's collaboration and knowing those ⁓ key members of VED. ⁓ So having strong TST teams in buildings.
But it all starts with the leader of the building that they understand the process as well as having someone in the building to lead it effectively because often you'll see the process happen. But sometimes you run into where people don't know what are my roles and responsibilities and making sure that everyone understands it and the flow of it because a lot of things can happen during that process. Sometimes where a student like they'll start the process and stops
nothing ever happens. And so just making sure that everyone understands the roles and responsibilities of it and how the flow should be of the process. That ⁓ you're not working in silos where leadership, the TST people, the teachers understand it, the specialist department where they all collaborate and have collaborative teams regarding ⁓ like those students that are in the process and having meetings to discuss the data.
if you're moving towards possibly looking at an evaluation for the student as well as keeping the parent informed of the process because often parents don't understand or know that this is what is transpiring with my child and you get to the point where oh we're about to evaluate your child and they don't know what has happened previously to get to the point of having an evaluation.
Matt Giovanniello (17:11)
Right, and in school buildings, you all are the experts. Parents aren't necessarily experts, although we want them to be, and sometimes we expect them to be. And that translation, I imagine, can be really challenging. I'm curious, over your past few years, since starting at South Pennoa, how MTSS has evolved and how you've built upon the structures you already had to make that communication between school and home stronger, more effective, and more easily understood for parents.
Lenora Morris (17:38)
I will say this is not a perfect process. It's still a work in progress because I will say upon my entering, I think there was a lack of communication amongst the various people in buildings and the process looked different in every building. And so one of my things was I wanted to be streamlined that everybody had the same expectations, the same ⁓ flow process because often sometimes when a child leads one building to the next, something that happened in the
building may or may not happen in the next building, but to make sure that the same communication, same verbage was used where I didn't want this building using a type of intervention that the next building didn't use because how can you figure out if the child is needing a particular evaluation or if it's just a lack of the process being implemented with fidelity or not.
Matt Giovanniello (18:32)
Right. And when we're thinking about a district that has over 4,200 students, six buildings, about 900 students are on IEPs even more with 504s on top of that number, the separation between buildings is inevitable if there's not that foundation, that bedrock at the district level and setting uniform expectations. Everybody's just going to go do their own thing. And that's where the continuous nature of MTSS really starts to fall apart. So I very much understand that.
Lenora Morris (19:01)
And I saw that and people were frustrated about this. And so I was like, we're going to have to make some amendments to this because you're saying one thing, but the verbiage is totally different at another building. that makes parents question, do they really know what should be transpiring with my child? And so I was like, we've got to clean this up, talk the same language, be on the same page to make sure that the student is receiving what they need.
Matt Giovanniello (19:02)
I still.
It's like left hand's not talking to the right. It's like, what's going on over there with you people?
Lenora Morris (19:34)
You know, I'd say that in education we tend to get a little bit territorial. And so, ⁓ and I'm like, we all have to communicate because the common goal is making sure that the students' needs are met and that they're receiving what they need. And so if we can't be on the same page, it's going to be quite evident in our data for our students.
Matt Giovanniello (19:54)
Totally. So when you think back to even a couple years back, or we're thinking about the end of this current academic year, what were some of specific things that you put in place, whether it was training, system, software, et cetera, to help improve upon the shared knowledge, shared understanding, shared communication styles for MTSS within your district?
Lenora Morris (20:17)
So I will say that it needed something to be in the black and white. And so I've learned through many years that sometimes, even as educators, we don't want a lot of stuff. We don't want to have to read this whole big manual of procedures. So I was like, let's do flow charts. A flow chart is always worse because if you're a visual learner,
There you have something that you can look at that tells you step by step. And so between myself and the MTSS coordinator, we work on flow charts that would help principals as well as TST leads, lead teachers and teachers. Because when you're providing instruction daily, that is the last thing that you want is another something for you to have to read a manual. Well, if we can give you some basic technique steps.
that you can ask your questions from, make sure that you're following that particular flowchart. It will help all of us to see where there's nothing missed in regards to the process. And so that's one of the things that we implemented. I say just let's create some flowcharts that we can revise from.
because principals have ⁓ a lot of roles and responsibilities outside of this, as well as those TST leads. And this will help us ⁓ make sure that everyone understands the process, as well as making sure that the process is followed.
Matt Giovanniello (21:45)
And just for our listeners awareness, define TST for us and the role they play in your.
Lenora Morris (21:50)
of the teacher support teams.
that a lot of school districts use RTI as a term, Responsive Intervention, MTSS, multi-tiered ⁓ student support, it's all the same thing. ⁓ The processes may look different district to district or state to state, but it's your intervention services you're providing for those students who may end up being evaluated as students with disabilities. However, my sermon is, it's like if I said, okay, I wanna lose 10 pounds and I decide,
to do the Atkins diet? Well, I started the diet, but I don't see the results after six weeks of implementing the diet. Is it the diet or me, the implementation, how I implemented the diet? And it's the same thing with MTSS or RTI. Like, is it being implemented with fidelity and correctly?
But I will say that good tier one instruction is the main thing and so sometimes as districts don't want to really focus on do we have a tier one instructional problem or is this something that we do have as many students who need to be referred for an evaluation but good first teaching is ⁓ number one and tier one looking at tier one instruction.
Matt Giovanniello (23:07)
You got that right. I'm so glad we're covering that. Let's, a little bit, because you're bringing up your special education population, a group that's near and dear to our hearts on this podcast. I want to go through some numbers. We talked a little bit about them before, but you had shared with us that you have close to 900 students with IEPs, some additional with 504s. Definitionally, that's considered above average for the 15 % or so kind of.
nationwide I guess expectation of students enrolled in public schools with disabilities you're about like a 20 to 21 percent IEP enrollment percentage.
That said, when you started a few years ago, you were under watch for over identifying students. So I'd love to learn about what you've done over the past couple of years to help bring that number down in a not only sustainable way, but an appropriate way for students while ensuring that those who still need to be receiving services are doing so. But then like lessons you've learned from things that you've done to exit students or properly refer them throughout DSS. What did you do well that we learned from?
Lenora Morris (24:05)
So looking at our tier one instruction, also when I first came, every building was using a different intervention. And so I was like, we can't really gauge the students of what they need because every intervention tool looks differently. And so.
I will say people didn't like it, but I was like, we're going to use one intervention tool because when this building is using something in another manner, I can't look at the data to say that this child actually has some type of need that we need to evaluate them. And so just making a change from having these multi different intervention tools to having one where the data would roll with their student if they left one building and went to the next has helped with the over identification.
Also looking at like the data from year to year with the child. Like has this been a constant thing for us? Their ⁓ scores looking at state ⁓ testing scores. Also looking at our benchmark assessments saying like maybe there is an issue here. Also ⁓ just good teacher student observations to see day to day how the child is performing.
⁓ Also considering with child find like parent concerns, ⁓ which have been a lot that we've had parents to say, I think something may be wrong with my child and I want to possibly consider any evaluation. But just having also data meetings with in buildings to look at that weekly testing data, weekly information with students, not only academically, but also social emotional as well.
Matt Giovanniello (25:51)
Totally. So I'm glad you brought up all those examples of data. Give us a visual a little bit as to how your teams are coming together to look at that data, where that's being stored, how they're collecting that. Like, what does a data review look like? It sounds like it's happening and happening definitely better than it was even a couple of years ago, but happening by any person's understanding and definition of empty assets, it's happening quite well. So what does it look like, like functionally over the course of a week, a month, a school year?
in terms of how your staff are looking at data. Like, do they have data meetings? What do those look like?
Lenora Morris (26:23)
Yes, every principal has data meetings as well as in those PLC. They're reviewing student data as well, looking at the benchmark data from every nine weeks as well as the students previous data from the previous year to make comparisons to see like is there a sign of improvement or is the student decreasing. Also looking at the standards of mastery assessments to see are the students meeting this particular standard or not.
as well as just daily instruction being teachers gauging have they learned this concept versus something that needs to be retaught have they mastered it. And so that's in buildings that you'll see that if you go building the building being done. Also we have what we have.
⁓ every nine weeks meetings with principals, one-on-one individual data conversations to look at their data for its particular standards as well as particular students. so ⁓ seeing improvements in comparing grade to grade and subject to subject for is what the data looks like.
Matt Giovanniello (27:34)
That's awesome. Much easier said than done, as you know. But that's amazing to hear those very concrete examples of the where, the how, the why, and a little bit of some maybe typical scenarios of if a student's not improving, this is what we try and do. Or if a student is improving according to plan, then great. This is what their families and they can expect next, and their staff can expect next.
Lenora Morris (27:57)
And having in that TST those data meetings and making the data decision like this child needs to move from tier one to tier two and sometimes tier two to tier three. But looking at your timelines and making sure you're adhering to those timelines of like, okay, we have not seen any progression. So we think we're gonna move them to a different ⁓ tiered intervention.
Matt Giovanniello (28:18)
Right, and the fact that this isn't a life sentence, this is something that we're going to try for, let's say, eight to 12 weeks, see what the response of the intervention is, and then we evaluate from there. Like, this isn't, you for the next 13 years of your life, like, this is it.
Lenora Morris (28:34)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (28:34)
That's awesome. So, one more topic I want to explore with you and this goes back to your actual title.
⁓ I want to talk about IEP compliance and turning it from kind of a barrier or like, ugh, we're doing this all for compliance and compliance only, like why are we getting caught in this, to reframing it as a catalyst. And I think that you have done that really well, not only in your current role, but in your titles and districts past. How are you channeling your state and federal mandated compliance requirements as it relates to special education and saying, hey, we can use this as a mechanism to innovate and actually think outside the box rather than be a barrier?
Lenora Morris (28:50)
Yes.
Matt Giovanniello (29:11)
How do you explore that?
Lenora Morris (29:13)
So compliance, and I probably will end the conversation with this, ⁓ it's one of those things that either you love it or you hate it, but it's a part of the job. And so I have to credit of having some excellent special ed mentors who had been in a career for 20, 30 plus years who helped me navigate how do you meet.
that dual capacity of compliance as well as instruction. And I tell people, I used to tell my teachers, I know most of you all very well, it's a part of learning your staff, and knowing their capabilities, their pros as well as cons, but building capacity to enhance whatever you feel like their weaknesses are.
And so part of the role of being a special ed teacher, you have a two-fold job. You have the compliance that allows you to meet federal and state mandates, and you have an instructional part that increases your academics in your school districts. so ⁓ compliance and accreditation are often viewed as checklists necessarily, but it's limited.
So I kind of approach them differently as a powerful framework for innovation, continuous improvement, as well as equity, because compliance is something that can always be improved. And so when you have, if you've served in the capacity of a special ed director, you know that you're going to always be monitored. just depends year to year what they may ask. And so...
Getting people not to look at compliance as a constraint and then it's just a roadmap for building stronger, more responsive systems that will also improve your student outcomes. If you can get that mindset amongst your staff, it will be something of not a per se avoidance to them because a lot of times teachers, they avoid it because it's work. It requires actual work that you're meeting those particular.
I.D.A. mandates as well as your state mandates and it's your money thing as well as being funded properly. And so in my leadership experience particularly in student services in SPED, ⁓ I've refrained from compliance by focusing it on its intent rather than just requirements because it's something that
you want to do well because it affects your student outcomes and making sure that parents understand what it looks like for is being compliant and making sure that IEP is individualized for that student's needs. And so.
They're grounded, those IDEA state and state accountability standards, they're grounded in ensuring access, equity, and fairness of all things and making sure that students are afforded those particular things that will have them successful. Because if you think about it, depending on when a child enters special education, that IEP is something that nine times out of 10 that they will have, they will carry them out from pre-K, 12, or whenever they enter the program, as well as
if they attend college or a trade school that can be implemented as well. And so making sure that you start them off well.
because you want them to succeed despite them having some type of disability that may be limiting their cognitive or even their speech language or social emotional needs. And so a lot of times ⁓ I would do random foul checks because I think that once teachers know that you're going to be checking that they will enhance their ability when it comes to making sure that they're meeting those compliance. And so daily operations by creating that
culture where it's continuous improvement ⁓ is the norm. Like it's not something that is going to be an I got you. Then you know to expect this and that this is the normalcy for us of what it should look like, what the expectations are. And then aligning the professional development with compliance priorities and then making sure that you empower the staff to see themselves as contributors to both the compliance as well as innovation.
And so also as a former spirit director, I knew those teacher leaders who could lead the process, whereas instead of me being the person to review it, that you all come together as teachers to review each other's because there's nothing like peer accountability where you can have those courageous conversations and say, hey, I think you may have missed your mark on this. Go back and review it to make sure that it is compliant and telling your colleague, you know, this is not correct and this is the way to fix it.
Because sometimes when I would come in, they would see it as, she's trying to get me or catch me. Whereas when you're working with a colleague, it's not a bias where you don't feel like, this person is here trying to be punitive to me and my IEP paperwork. And so you're making sure that teams understand the why behind compliance.
that they become more invested, creative, and it being solution oriented. And also, ⁓ I tell people just like this, a teacher has a responsibility of it as well, the GNS teacher too, because they have to implement those accommodations and modifications. So everybody that touches their child has some responsibility in making sure that the IEP is implemented correctly. And so cross-functional as well as innovation from the head,
the principal to assistant principals as well as all those other teachers that are involved with a particular student. And I will say lastly that compliance is not about avoiding risk and it's about maximizing impact because you're going to see on the secondary level how the implementation of that IEP will lead to the student hopefully graduating with a regular diploma, hopefully if it's appropriate, as well as those post-secondary outcomes
transition that they're able to go into society and function either with support or with limited support. And so ⁓ what you're building is a roadmap to success as a child gets older and it's your K-12 education program.
Matt Giovanniello (35:28)
Leonard, I think you've made so many good points just now. The biggest one that I took away is compliance is often perceived perhaps as like an authoritative position. And yet it doesn't need to be. think when you're adding that sense of collaboration, especially amongst teachers who are otherwise being graded or, you know, overseen or observed or, you know, what have you, what word that compliance normally comes with, like,
It's not only more enjoyable, it's not only a shared purpose, but also there's a lot of learning that happens without cooperation. And then it doesn't need to seem so dictatorial, like a dictatorship. Like it's not like you must do this. it's, we're all understanding the broader, greater purpose ⁓ that this very necessary role has ⁓ for a functioning school system. I think that's one thing that I took away from what you shared just now. Another is...
If special education is run right, which is a big thing to ask, but when it's run right, it looks something along the lines of let's identify early, let's try and identify often and make sure that the student gets all of the necessary supports from the beginning of their educational journey so that by the time they do graduate, they get that deployment. They're graduating on time. They're going to college. That makes sense. They're going to trade school. They're getting a career, whatever that looks like. And so we can set them up for success, just like their gen ed counterparts. And that's how we know that special ed was so successful.
And that's exactly why we're all doing this. But then the realities of, okay, we need it for funding, we need it for reimbursement. We need to make sure that we have our staffing for next year. We need to do it so that we can demonstrate our compliance with state and federal laws. And we need to demonstrate it so we can show that, hey, if we're telling parents these students are receiving special services, is it actually worthwhile for them? And are we doing it in the spirit of that student success? So there's a lot of, you know, prescriptive black and white, to use your phrase earlier, mandates. But there's a right way to implement compliance and maybe
a bunch of not so right ways. And I'm glad that you helped us see the difference between what a good compliance driven special education program could look like.
Lenora Morris (37:26)
Yes, yes. And you know, sometimes we all have barriers, but you have to figure out like how, despite having these barriers, how can we still do the work? What things can we put in place for the betterment of all? Not only the child, but the parent as well. And oftentimes, their parent doesn't know how to navigate it. And so that's our responsibility to help them navigate it.
Matt Giovanniello (37:51)
Lenora, we are at the end of our time for today's episode. I'm so sad because I have even more questions to ask you, but we'll need to talk to each other another time. As we wrap up today's episode, I'd like to ask you one final question we love to ask each of our guests. If you'd like to take a minute to reflect on it, please feel free to do so. The question for you, Lenora, is what does being an exceptional educator or being an exceptional leader mean to you?
Lenora Morris (38:12)
wow. So I will say it is work of the heart, H-E-A-R-T, as well as hard work, H-A-R-D, being innovative, ⁓ resilient.
Matt Giovanniello (38:13)
You
Lenora Morris (38:29)
⁓ giving of yourself, of your time, your talent, as well as your efforts, and seeing the bigger picture and allowing people who have been in the profession, who are ex-linenated what they do to guide you, encourage you to steady enhance your capabilities, as well as making sure that you
keep building your craft with effective professional development, attending things. I've had the opportunity to attend various conferences that ⁓ allowed me to see things differently and expose me to things that I probably would not have been exposed to if I would have not attended. And just making sure that you stay current and that you continue to enhance your abilities.
Matt Giovanniello (39:14)
And I think you're doing exactly all that. So Newsflash, you are exceptional and you are inspiring a whole group of upcoming exceptional students, exceptional educators and exceptional leaders. So, Winnara, thank you. It was such a pleasure chatting with you today. And for the 20 plus years you've spent committed to special education, and hopefully many more in the future, thank you for serving all of the students and the staff in the ways that you have across the borders, which is so, so cool. We don't hear that every day.
Lenora Morris (39:17)
Thank you.
Thank you all for having me, I've enjoyed it.
Matt Giovanniello (39:41)
Absolutely. To everybody listening to today's episode of the Exceptional Educators podcast, thank you again for joining us and we look forward to catching you on our next one. All right, that was fun, right? I hope you enjoyed it.
Lenora Morris (39:49)
Take care. ⁓
It was fun. It was fun. Listen, it was like I was talking to somebody regularly. I didn't feel it's like, OK, I got to stick with my script or skip the fake key to everything that you sent me.
Matt Giovanniello (40:02)
Good. was, that was, good, good, good. I'm glad that was the goal. I'm glad that you feel comfortable, but I'm glad that you were able to incorporate all those really important points towards the end. your notes were like, they, got put to good use. That was so cool. ⁓
Lenora Morris (40:17)
Okay, well thank you so much. Looking forward to seeing it published and all of it.
Matt Giovanniello (40:22)
I know, two more quick things for you. The first, we're gonna do that quick introduction. I'll remind you of that. whenever you're ready, hi, I'm Wendora Morris. Go through your title, your district, and then I blank in relation to exceptional educators, exceptional leaders, exceptional students. And then after that, I'm just gonna have you stick around for one more minute to make sure the recording comes to life. So whenever you're ready, time for introduction.
Lenora Morris (40:26)
Okay.
Okay. Okay.
Okay ready. Hello my name is Lenora Morris and I serve as a chief of student services and accreditation for a school district in Mississippi. However I've been involved in special education for over 20 years as a teacher, special ed instructional coach, special ed supervisor and director and now to my current role I've had the opportunity to teach a gifted education as well.
and work in urban and rural education environments. ⁓ I would describe myself as being innovative, leader, accountable, ⁓ as well as mission driven to make sure that students have successful outcomes, as well as passionate about the role of special education.
Matt Giovanniello (41:38)
I love it and exceptional. One more descriptor. ⁓ there you go. I love it. Very cool. All right.
Lenora Morris (41:41)
and of course exceptional.
