Sales Tips for Technical Owners - ERP144

00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.422
Brian Gillette took his first
MSP job as VP of sales and

00:00:04.429 --> 00:00:06.592
had to ask what MRR stood for.

00:00:06.989 --> 00:00:11.237
Three years later, that company
had grown from about 700K to over 2

00:00:11.238 --> 00:00:15.043
million in recurring revenue, and he
did it without a marketing budget.

00:00:15.936 --> 00:00:19.988
MSPs, he was an actor in LA, which
is where he learned to hear "no"

00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:23.573
at auditions after audition and
kept his self-worth out of it.

00:00:24.022 --> 00:00:28.272
Today, he runs Feelgood MSP, hosts
the MSP Sales Podcast, and wrote

00:00:28.570 --> 00:00:31.817
How to Sell a Shitload of Managed
Services Without Selling Your Soul.

00:00:31.910 --> 00:00:36.412
His approach, the Feelgood Close, is
built for technical owners who hate

00:00:36.413 --> 00:00:38.855
the idea of being a salesperson.

00:00:39.680 --> 00:00:43.825
talking about why fear-based selling
stopped working for MSPs and what

00:00:43.826 --> 00:00:49.006
replaced it when the person running the
process would rather be fixing a server.

00:00:49.053 --> 00:00:51.628
Brian, welcome to the
Evolved Radio Podcast.

00:00:52.085 --> 00:00:52.749
Thanks, Todd.

00:00:52.793 --> 00:00:55.861
I'm, uh, very honored
and excited to be here

00:00:56.975 --> 00:00:58.080
I'm glad to have you.

00:00:58.144 --> 00:01:01.597
Uh, I, I mean, obviously I know
you in the industry and have, uh,

00:01:01.626 --> 00:01:05.571
sent, sent some, some people your
way as well, heard great things.

00:01:05.590 --> 00:01:10.199
But I saw you on the stage at ScaleCon,
and there was a, a whole series of

00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.369
things that I was like, "Oh, damn,
I gotta have Brian on the podcast."

00:01:13.375 --> 00:01:15.776
So, uh, this is gonna be great.

00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:18.182
Um, I love a lot of your takes.

00:01:18.238 --> 00:01:23.936
I feel like a lot of it is founded in
really good data and information that

00:01:23.936 --> 00:01:25.815
you have, the systems that you use.

00:01:26.143 --> 00:01:30.105
But it feels somewhat counterintuitive,
I think, to what also a lot of other

00:01:30.106 --> 00:01:32.319
people see or hear in the industry.

00:01:32.675 --> 00:01:34.351
So looking forward to the takes here.

00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.004
Um, maybe to, to start us off with
something fiery, um, I would love

00:01:40.006 --> 00:01:44.811
to hear you rank the worst to best
typical prospecting strategies

00:01:44.821 --> 00:01:47.064
for a traditional tech-led MSP

00:01:48.064 --> 00:01:48.341
Oh, boy.

00:01:48.774 --> 00:01:49.155
Okay.

00:01:49.210 --> 00:01:53.979
Um, eh, I'll do my best to keep
these in a linear order, but it

00:01:53.979 --> 00:01:57.478
might be sort of clusters, you
know, o- of, of tiers, you know.

00:01:57.578 --> 00:01:57.878
Dat is mooi.

00:01:58.326 --> 00:02:02.005
Let's call D tier is, uh, what
most people do, which is nothing.

00:02:02.797 --> 00:02:03.173
Like,

00:02:03.199 --> 00:02:03.925
Excellent start.

00:02:03.937 --> 00:02:04.289
Okay.

00:02:04.828 --> 00:02:06.259
doing… Let me say it this way.

00:02:06.506 --> 00:02:10.375
Doing a great job for your
customers is not lead generation.

00:02:11.664 --> 00:02:17.362
That's just being a business, and you
will get some customers just because

00:02:17.362 --> 00:02:20.129
you've hung a shingle if you just
don't, if your business just doesn't

00:02:20.138 --> 00:02:21.878
die for several decades in a row.

00:02:21.922 --> 00:02:23.665
Yeah, but that's not what sales is.

00:02:24.256 --> 00:02:28.123
So waiting is gonna be,
I'm gonna call that D tier.

00:02:28.212 --> 00:02:30.396
But then really anything
else in the D tier

00:02:32.578 --> 00:02:36.186
Oh God, uh, how many enemies
do I wanna make at once?

00:02:36.848 --> 00:02:42.732
Um, using canned material over and over
again and then sending it out in mass.

00:02:44.654 --> 00:02:50.911
Um, like if we're still email- if we're
still mailing people baggies of aspirin in

00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:54.683
envelopes, uh, I think it's just D tier.

00:02:54.685 --> 00:02:57.458
I think, I think it's… I
just don't think it works.

00:02:57.569 --> 00:03:00.468
Um, and if it does work, you're not
attracting the kind of people that

00:03:00.469 --> 00:03:01.650
you actually even wanna work with.

00:03:02.594 --> 00:03:03.271
And then

00:03:03.338 --> 00:03:07.844
the, uh, the prescribed Lenovo
posted LinkedIn material, right?

00:03:07.916 --> 00:03:08.291
Ja

00:03:08.411 --> 00:03:11.259
do something like, like you said,
doing nothing is the worst, but

00:03:11.483 --> 00:03:11.760
Yeah.

00:03:11.793 --> 00:03:13.525
know, that, that is, uh, not

00:03:13.591 --> 00:03:14.111
Yeah.

00:03:14.196 --> 00:03:14.405
it

00:03:14.777 --> 00:03:17.202
And I, yeah, I'm gonna put
that stuff in C tier of, like,

00:03:17.533 --> 00:03:20.944
vendor-generated syndicated content.

00:03:21.513 --> 00:03:23.286
Like, what did Microsoft make for you?

00:03:23.295 --> 00:03:25.009
Like, they don't know
how to sell this stuff.

00:03:25.010 --> 00:03:26.045
That's why they're channel.

00:03:26.361 --> 00:03:28.858
Like, they don't know how to-- They
don't know what end users even want.

00:03:29.409 --> 00:03:32.843
So, uh, that's gonna be your C tier,
and then I'm gonna call your B tier…

00:03:33.118 --> 00:03:38.594
A-and also down in there is just, like, AI
forward automation is the worst possible

00:03:38.594 --> 00:03:40.617
way of building a high-trust relationship.

00:03:40.774 --> 00:03:44.343
Um, we're building high-trust
relationships, so you can't start

00:03:44.570 --> 00:03:48.075
by looking like a schmuck who is
sending them, like, "I noticed you

00:03:48.075 --> 00:03:52.324
breathe air. Our company synergizes
with…" It's just nonsense.

00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:56.043
But then you're gonna get up into
the B and A, A-tier stuff, and S-tier

00:03:56.052 --> 00:03:59.868
stuff is, like… I think one-to-one
cold email is probably B tier.

00:03:59.961 --> 00:04:03.838
It's way better than people actually
think it is, but it's not, it's,

00:04:03.856 --> 00:04:05.073
it's not the most effective.

00:04:05.083 --> 00:04:09.307
But if you're actually doing
one-to-one emails, it works great, just

00:04:09.307 --> 00:04:10.670
nobody has the discipline to do it.

00:04:11.156 --> 00:04:16.589
Uh, A tier is gonna be your sort of
marketing-supported cold calling, be that,

00:04:16.601 --> 00:04:20.468
be that in-person cold calling, like w-
door-to-door, hitting people over the

00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:24.794
phone, uh, with lead magnets and marketing
resources and follow-up, uh, cadences.

00:04:25.900 --> 00:04:29.417
And I'm gonna call S tier, like the best
thing you could possibly do is going

00:04:29.417 --> 00:04:36.044
to be going to trade shows for your
ideal markets and sending individual

00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:41.571
video prospecting to your prospects,
sending videos of you talking to

00:04:41.572 --> 00:04:43.832
people one-on-one via LinkedIn or email

00:04:44.968 --> 00:04:47.881
So like actually recording like, "Hey Jim

00:04:48.143 --> 00:04:48.491
Yeah.

00:04:48.587 --> 00:04:49.675
and such company," like,

00:04:49.948 --> 00:04:50.183
Yeah.

00:04:50.655 --> 00:04:51.560
to a person, right?

00:04:51.928 --> 00:04:52.868
Hey, Jim, Sarah here.

00:04:52.868 --> 00:04:53.912
Just want you to know I'm not a robot.

00:04:53.929 --> 00:04:56.004
Listen, I was looking at your
website the other day, noticed

00:04:56.004 --> 00:04:57.614
you guys work with Clio.

00:04:58.030 --> 00:05:01.135
Uh, we actually have 12 law firms in
the greater Cleveland area that are

00:05:01.135 --> 00:05:03.460
working with Clio, and I wondered
if you guys had figured out how to

00:05:03.460 --> 00:05:05.457
solve that pr- this one problem.

00:05:05.510 --> 00:05:06.993
We actually automated
a way for another firm.

00:05:06.994 --> 00:05:08.972
We saved them, like, four
hours of admin work a week.

00:05:09.407 --> 00:05:12.690
Anyway, just wanted to say hi, introduce
myself, and, um, would love to connect

00:05:13.892 --> 00:05:18.569
I love the idea of sending video
on LinkedIn because it, it sort

00:05:18.571 --> 00:05:22.840
of, again, like makes sense, but it
feels counterintuitive because, um,

00:05:22.907 --> 00:05:26.085
video itself, depending on sort of
the day of the week of the Microsoft

00:05:26.091 --> 00:05:28.478
algorithm, doesn't do great on LinkedIn.

00:05:28.923 --> 00:05:31.503
Uh, I think they're, they've been-
made a couple of attempts to change

00:05:31.503 --> 00:05:34.902
that, but I think that's different
if the video is directed at a person.

00:05:34.969 --> 00:05:35.748
So I think that's

00:05:35.764 --> 00:05:36.035
Yeah.

00:05:36.037 --> 00:05:36.855
That's a great suggestion.

00:05:37.268 --> 00:05:42.030
Even if it's a bad cold call, man, like
I'm gonna open seven out of 10 videos that

00:05:42.033 --> 00:05:44.303
I get DM'd 'cause I don't get that many.

00:05:45.845 --> 00:05:48.446
But I'm not gonna open all the text
ones, but I'm gonna open the video

00:05:48.447 --> 00:05:50.154
ones, and I'm gonna give it five seconds

00:05:50.875 --> 00:05:51.121
Yeah.

00:05:51.583 --> 00:05:52.293
Okay, that's cool.

00:05:52.321 --> 00:05:54.354
So, um, I love that.

00:05:54.371 --> 00:05:57.232
That's, uh, gives you good sort
of ranking of, like, where we

00:05:57.232 --> 00:05:59.107
stand on what we should be using.

00:05:59.436 --> 00:06:03.791
Um, cold calling I think ranks higher
than maybe people would want to do.

00:06:03.796 --> 00:06:06.159
We'll certainly circle back
to that one in a minute here.

00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:11.494
Um, as technical people, we
tend to overexplain the solution

00:06:11.536 --> 00:06:13.020
and talk a lot about features.

00:06:13.299 --> 00:06:14.969
Why is this a bad strategy?

00:06:14.982 --> 00:06:18.684
Because I think in our head as technical
people, we're trying to explain a lot

00:06:18.686 --> 00:06:23.123
of the value of what we're delivering
or what we do or what a solution has.

00:06:23.619 --> 00:06:27.640
But I get a sense that this is, from
the limited sales training that I've

00:06:27.642 --> 00:06:29.898
done, uh, this is not the right play.

00:06:29.947 --> 00:06:30.625
Why is that?

00:06:30.770 --> 00:06:31.010
Yeah.

00:06:31.884 --> 00:06:36.183
Well, this is a good question, and
it's one that I have an answer for,

00:06:36.183 --> 00:06:40.166
but then I have to give a, I have to
give a second answer on top of it.

00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:44.914
So the reason it doesn't work
is that nobody cares about

00:06:44.929 --> 00:06:47.347
how the sausage is made.

00:06:47.357 --> 00:06:49.135
They care how the sausage tastes.

00:06:49.666 --> 00:06:53.111
And actually, sausage is the example
I use in Feelgood because the more

00:06:53.111 --> 00:06:56.337
I learn about how they made it,
the less likely I am to buy it.

00:06:57.317 --> 00:06:59.948
So you don't sell sausage by
showing people the factory, you

00:06:59.948 --> 00:07:02.762
show sa- you sell sausage by
asking people if they're hungry.

00:07:03.910 --> 00:07:07.530
And that's my example for you
have to go to the outcomes.

00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:12.569
But this is the thing, Todd, that's
actually really, uh, irritating to me.

00:07:13.826 --> 00:07:17.588
Somebody… There'll be a talking point
in the zeitgeist about sales, and then

00:07:18.115 --> 00:07:20.014
you'll have, like, an influencer say it.

00:07:20.418 --> 00:07:23.677
Then you're gonna get your tier two
influencers will start parroting it.

00:07:24.078 --> 00:07:28.933
Then you get your tier three influencers,
which is, like, somebody reposting an Alex

00:07:28.934 --> 00:07:31.688
Hormozi tweet on their LinkedIn account.

00:07:31.779 --> 00:07:35.788
Like, they're not… And then they'll get
20,000 re- likes, likes on that image.

00:07:36.097 --> 00:07:37.274
They didn't originate anything.

00:07:37.275 --> 00:07:40.206
They're essentially just distributing
other people's thoughts, right?

00:07:40.679 --> 00:07:44.852
And then it, then it gets down into
the layman, the everyday people,

00:07:45.772 --> 00:07:46.930
the you and mes of the world.

00:07:47.180 --> 00:07:51.298
You know, the MSP owners who were all
at the, at IT Nation together going,

00:07:51.298 --> 00:07:55.103
"You gotta sell outcomes. You gotta sell
outcomes." But nobody knows what the hell

00:07:55.104 --> 00:07:57.885
that means, and nobody knows how to do it.

00:07:58.673 --> 00:08:02.401
So they say, "Don't sell speeds and feeds.
Don't sell jargon. Don't use acronyms."

00:08:02.512 --> 00:08:04.092
Okay, but what are you gonna say instead?

00:08:04.222 --> 00:08:07.598
You're just gonna say, "We just handle
it." And they go, "Handle what?"

00:08:07.873 --> 00:08:12.379
"Everything." "I'm good." Because
they don't… There's no direct value.

00:08:12.659 --> 00:08:17.379
So yes, it doesn't work because the more
people understand the product, the less

00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:21.977
likely they are to want to use it, uh,
the un- the inner workings of a product.

00:08:22.145 --> 00:08:28.491
But you have to replace that sales,
that airtime of your sales process with

00:08:28.492 --> 00:08:30.304
something that's worth talking about.

00:08:31.155 --> 00:08:35.158
Any sales thought, quote-unquote thought
leader can tell you what to not do.

00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:39.454
But this is the evidence of somebody
who's creating value for the market or

00:08:39.455 --> 00:08:44.367
parroting other thought leaders, is the
people who only ever disparage methods

00:08:44.372 --> 00:08:49.026
and they don't give you a replacement
method, which drives me up the wall.

00:08:49.569 --> 00:08:51.978
So instead, this is how you
actually create outcomes.

00:08:51.978 --> 00:08:52.807
I'm gonna explain it.

00:08:53.597 --> 00:08:54.885
Look at the speeds and feeds.

00:08:54.887 --> 00:08:55.955
Look at the technical stuff.

00:08:55.958 --> 00:08:57.623
And by that I mean look
at your tech stack.

00:08:57.623 --> 00:08:59.069
Write it down on a Google Doc.

00:08:59.238 --> 00:09:01.080
Or I mean a, a… Sorry, a Word doc.

00:09:01.704 --> 00:09:02.817
Who am I t- who am I talking to?

00:09:02.818 --> 00:09:03.252
MSPs.

00:09:03.576 --> 00:09:07.478
Write it on a Microsoft Word doc,
every single thing in the stack.

00:09:07.494 --> 00:09:10.228
Then give me one sentence that
says, what does that thing do?

00:09:10.909 --> 00:09:13.021
And this doesn't have to be
public-facing, so internally.

00:09:13.049 --> 00:09:14.665
What does SentinelOne do?

00:09:15.664 --> 00:09:17.599
What does IT Glue do?

00:09:19.316 --> 00:09:19.935
Fill in the blank.

00:09:20.373 --> 00:09:26.302
Then after that, say, um,
why should my prospect care?

00:09:26.436 --> 00:09:27.185
That's a new column.

00:09:27.537 --> 00:09:31.821
Now I need one sentence that
explains why the prospect should

00:09:31.821 --> 00:09:34.653
care that that tool does that thing

00:09:36.948 --> 00:09:39.679
And then you wanna go one
layer further that says, what

00:09:39.681 --> 00:09:41.526
does it help the prospect do?

00:09:44.410 --> 00:09:48.784
So, okay, the fact that I have
documentation all centralized

00:09:48.813 --> 00:09:53.825
and keyworded and indexed is
amazing for helping me run my MSP.

00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.445
But actually, can we find a through line?

00:09:56.714 --> 00:10:01.499
So now, why should my customer care
that my documentation is on point

00:10:03.637 --> 00:10:07.555
Well, on the top of my head,
um, they-- we are not going to

00:10:07.558 --> 00:10:09.340
have repetitive conversations.

00:10:09.646 --> 00:10:13.410
If they-- If you spoke to Clark on
my team two weeks ago and you're

00:10:13.411 --> 00:10:17.358
speaking to Rubio on my team today,
Rubio knows what you said to Clark.

00:10:18.245 --> 00:10:20.703
So they don't have to repeat
themselves, which is one of the

00:10:20.711 --> 00:10:24.653
biggest frustrations of any outsource
support is getting transferred

00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:26.141
and starting the story over again.

00:10:27.188 --> 00:10:27.237
Absolutely

00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:31.298
And then you could, you could
extrapolate, like support calls are

00:10:31.299 --> 00:10:36.365
faster, tighter, and we will get better
over time so that they are going to

00:10:36.366 --> 00:10:43.223
get white glove, individualized custom
support every time, and that they will

00:10:43.237 --> 00:10:46.727
build a relationship over time with
their support team that's just going

00:10:46.728 --> 00:10:48.317
to make it easier to work with us.

00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:50.701
Does that make sense?

00:10:51.179 --> 00:10:55.653
Yeah, so I love this because, like
I am of two minds of this because I

00:10:55.655 --> 00:11:01.190
think a lot of what MSPs struggle with,
especially in sort of a modern sale, is

00:11:01.224 --> 00:11:04.077
f- uh, combating commoditization, right?

00:11:04.145 --> 00:11:08.680
And the way that we go through this,
I think it kinda lends to a bit of

00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:13.639
commoditization, but I think the
answer is also in the same recipe of if

00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:17.061
you're talking about these things in a
unique way that the rest of the market

00:11:17.107 --> 00:11:20.279
isn't, right, because you have a more
sophisticated approach to how you're

00:11:20.547 --> 00:11:24.485
communicating the value that you're
delivering, you're already differentiated.

00:11:24.701 --> 00:11:27.931
Is-- Do you think that that's true,
or is sort of, is there like a more

00:11:27.931 --> 00:11:32.585
advanced class for how you differentiate
as an MSP, assuming that we kind of have

00:11:32.586 --> 00:11:35.899
very similar stack and we're producing
the same outcomes for a business?

00:11:36.508 --> 00:11:36.835
Yeah.

00:11:36.920 --> 00:11:40.922
Um, I have a lot of loaded… I have
a lot of opinions on the topic of

00:11:40.924 --> 00:11:45.462
differentiation, and yes, we have
to differentiate, sure, if we don't

00:11:45.462 --> 00:11:47.263
want to be in a c- a commodity.

00:11:47.503 --> 00:11:50.004
But also, some people just
might be fine being a commodity.

00:11:50.126 --> 00:11:54.938
Like, maybe you just wanna be a commodity,
and you wanna have 10,000 clients.

00:11:54.999 --> 00:11:56.632
Like, f- good for you.

00:11:56.798 --> 00:12:00.559
That's not what I personally wanna do,
but if that's what you are interested

00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:02.296
in, there's th- you could go that route.

00:12:02.309 --> 00:12:07.115
You could go super specific,
you know, and low friction.

00:12:07.211 --> 00:12:10.803
You could be the, uh, the
Electric AIs or whatever that…

00:12:10.828 --> 00:12:11.850
You remember that company that,

00:12:11.877 --> 00:12:12.662
Yep, absolutely

00:12:13.196 --> 00:12:17.673
Or, like, the, the Ripple IT now is, like,
they're trying to get into the MSP space.

00:12:18.042 --> 00:12:21.212
That's a commoditizised, uh, commoditized
version, and that's going to be

00:12:21.213 --> 00:12:23.058
very successful for those people.

00:12:23.714 --> 00:12:29.050
But everybody obsesses over different,
but you have to remember that they don't

00:12:29.051 --> 00:12:30.539
want different for different's sake.

00:12:31.406 --> 00:12:32.630
What they want is not different.

00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.730
What they want is better, right?

00:12:36.474 --> 00:12:40.915
So, like, "Hey, we're different
because all of our techs also speak

00:12:40.915 --> 00:12:44.373
Klingon, and nobody else can do that."

00:12:44.949 --> 00:12:46.162
Like, well, congratulations.

00:12:46.162 --> 00:12:50.573
You're different than everybody else
in a way that benefits me not at all.

00:12:52.008 --> 00:12:58.026
So we get so obsessed over
differentiating the method, and we

00:12:58.027 --> 00:12:59.931
need to differentiate the effect.

00:13:00.886 --> 00:13:02.173
I'm gonna give you an example.

00:13:02.377 --> 00:13:04.834
Are, is this on video, Todd,
or we only release audio?

00:13:06.586 --> 00:13:10.171
Most, like 80% of listeners
are audio only, but yeah,

00:13:10.901 --> 00:13:11.290
Okay

00:13:11.344 --> 00:13:12.337
is, is usable.

00:13:12.546 --> 00:13:15.496
If, if we want- if you wanna see
what's happen- about to happen here,

00:13:15.772 --> 00:13:19.131
the magic trick, then uh, then check
out the YouTube channel as well, but

00:13:19.482 --> 00:13:22.765
So magic trick, do, do you know what
I'm holding in my hands right now?

00:13:23.964 --> 00:13:24.750
A deck of cards.

00:13:24.968 --> 00:13:26.008
Oh, holy crap.

00:13:26.022 --> 00:13:26.649
Okay, I called it.

00:13:27.218 --> 00:13:27.934
So you did call it.

00:13:28.187 --> 00:13:31.070
So literally, uh, uh, you can listen
along or you don't have to … I,

00:13:31.078 --> 00:13:36.566
I'm not a professional magician, but
this is my, my ADHD fidget totem of

00:13:36.568 --> 00:13:38.029
choice is a deck of cards, right?

00:13:38.405 --> 00:13:42.772
But point being that magicians like
to fixate, they like to impress other

00:13:42.772 --> 00:13:49.146
magicians by getting, finding unique
methods, and the truth is that you

00:13:49.147 --> 00:13:54.325
could use the same method for every
single card trick, but if the effect

00:13:54.342 --> 00:13:57.473
is different, then the audience
will have no idea that you did the

00:13:57.474 --> 00:13:58.674
same trick over and over again.

00:13:59.845 --> 00:14:00.420
You know what I mean?

00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.457
Like, if I have a way of
getting a card… Hang on.

00:14:05.169 --> 00:14:07.554
I can't believe I'm doing this,
but like I have a way of showing

00:14:07.555 --> 00:14:09.497
you that jack of diamonds, right?

00:14:10.466 --> 00:14:13.054
I already flashed, but if I can
take the jack of diamonds, put

00:14:13.054 --> 00:14:13.840
it in the middle of the deck

00:14:17.487 --> 00:14:18.821
And then produce it on top again.

00:14:20.302 --> 00:14:21.631
So I could do that.

00:14:21.662 --> 00:14:22.728
That's one method.

00:14:23.099 --> 00:14:25.060
I could show you all sorts
of different methods.

00:14:26.242 --> 00:14:29.406
That's a totally different
method, same trick.

00:14:30.552 --> 00:14:33.055
So I'm not gonna get credit
for two different tricks.

00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:35.650
The audience is gonna go, "You
just did that trick." No, I did

00:14:35.650 --> 00:14:38.084
a totally different trick, but it
was the stuff that you don't see.

00:14:38.095 --> 00:14:39.277
The method was different.

00:14:39.277 --> 00:14:42.555
The outcome or the effect
was diff- was the same.

00:14:43.076 --> 00:14:45.239
I took a card from the middle of
the deck to the top of the deck.

00:14:46.090 --> 00:14:51.499
So we have to differentiate
not the method, but the effect.

00:14:53.229 --> 00:14:55.911
And it has to, again, not just be
different, it has to be better.

00:14:55.914 --> 00:14:58.016
I know this is a long answer,
Todd, but we can cut it down.

00:14:58.858 --> 00:15:02.608
Um, so what does better mean?

00:15:03.208 --> 00:15:05.131
That's the question you
need to ask yourself.

00:15:05.162 --> 00:15:11.290
To the people you're doing IT support
for, if you can't give them a better

00:15:11.290 --> 00:15:16.418
experience on the effect, it does not
matter whether you do it the same or

00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:17.998
different than all of your competitors

00:15:18.650 --> 00:15:24.637
I think this is where a lot of MSP owners
and s- like, uh, junior salespeople

00:15:24.637 --> 00:15:30.035
try to go to and do a pretty, average
job at it, maybe sub average, because

00:15:30.357 --> 00:15:33.198
they're communicating things that
really don't matter and are not sort

00:15:33.198 --> 00:15:35.138
of like differentiated value, right?

00:15:35.138 --> 00:15:37.690
They say, "We're better because
we have the best people."

00:15:37.726 --> 00:15:39.743
Like bullshit, like how can I judge that?

00:15:39.772 --> 00:15:42.590
Like ev- the other three people
that I had in the boardroom here

00:15:42.590 --> 00:15:43.861
said they had the best people too.

00:15:44.248 --> 00:15:47.515
Or, "We're proactive," which, you
know, quite frankly has never really

00:15:47.515 --> 00:15:49.203
been that true in the industry anyway.

00:15:49.589 --> 00:15:53.969
Uh, you know, "We're, we're,
uh, we care." Uh, okay, do you?

00:15:54.013 --> 00:15:54.222
Right?

00:15:54.222 --> 00:15:57.378
Like I don't know how you operate, so
like why am I gonna believe you that

00:15:57.379 --> 00:16:02.428
that's gonna be true when the previous
two MSPs that I've had relationships

00:16:02.428 --> 00:16:06.075
with were kind of terrible, and I'm
judging you based on those relationships.

00:16:06.335 --> 00:16:08.740
So what are we, we then
trying to communicate?

00:16:08.741 --> 00:16:10.726
'Cause these are not the
things, in my opinion

00:16:11.324 --> 00:16:11.748
That's right.

00:16:12.055 --> 00:16:15.826
You have to remember that managed
services is a service business.

00:16:17.002 --> 00:16:18.859
We're a customer service business.

00:16:19.128 --> 00:16:20.662
We're not a technology business.

00:16:21.503 --> 00:16:24.431
Like, our job is to help
businesses do their job.

00:16:25.229 --> 00:16:27.943
So it's not to be
impressively intelligent.

00:16:28.127 --> 00:16:30.233
Like, who gives a shit,
dude, how smart you are?

00:16:30.233 --> 00:16:30.996
Who gives a shit?

00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:32.862
If it doesn't help me, why would I care?

00:16:33.324 --> 00:16:38.929
So you have to ask yourself those really
hard questions, and the only way to do

00:16:38.930 --> 00:16:44.364
that is to understand who you're trying
to do IT support for, and then talk to

00:16:44.372 --> 00:16:46.117
those people and ask them the questions.

00:16:46.118 --> 00:16:49.593
Like, "What do you want from an IT
partner that you've never gotten

00:16:49.593 --> 00:16:52.234
before?" And then figure out
how to work backwards from that.

00:16:52.261 --> 00:16:55.810
So they go, "Can you make the card
come out of my pocket?" Like, yeah,

00:16:55.811 --> 00:16:59.141
let me build an a … Let me build a
method that will give y- that effect.

00:16:59.407 --> 00:17:01.900
Let me figure out how to work
backwards from the desired effect.

00:17:01.915 --> 00:17:03.403
That's how you build a good magic trick.

00:17:03.908 --> 00:17:07.068
And so the way you build a good sales
proposition is you work backwards

00:17:07.069 --> 00:17:08.936
from what they want out of you

00:17:10.413 --> 00:17:13.143
So again, comes to personalization, right?

00:17:13.143 --> 00:17:16.018
Like the best outreach
that you kind of noted was,

00:17:16.169 --> 00:17:16.179
Mhm

00:17:16.326 --> 00:17:17.841
a high level of personalization.

00:17:17.871 --> 00:17:22.455
And in the sales process, again, I would
say it also echoes in account management.

00:17:22.789 --> 00:17:27.950
The more personalized, the more specific
it feels to this conversation that

00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:31.895
I'm having with you is about you and
not just sort of like the script that

00:17:31.895 --> 00:17:35.614
I'm talking to everyone else with,
then that feels differentiated, right?

00:17:35.898 --> 00:17:36.724
Yeah, exactly.

00:17:37.379 --> 00:17:37.605
Yeah.

00:17:37.666 --> 00:17:39.481
there are tactics we, we could get into.

00:17:39.655 --> 00:17:43.280
We could ha- I could tell you how to make
people like you more and make people feel

00:17:43.280 --> 00:17:47.473
more special with, like, two or three
essentially conversational gimmicks,

00:17:47.714 --> 00:17:52.418
you know, to help people with low
social IQ, like, feign higher social IQ.

00:17:52.853 --> 00:17:57.030
There's some of those moves we could do,
but, um, on the front end of sales, we,

00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.954
we just have to remember that, like, we're
not entitled to people caring about us

00:18:00.973 --> 00:18:05.139
simply because we are very good at what
we do, and we're not entitled to people

00:18:05.139 --> 00:18:08.235
buying our services just because we're
passionate about doing it the right way.

00:18:08.852 --> 00:18:13.812
That is our responsibility to the market,
is make them care about it, you know?

00:18:14.104 --> 00:18:15.451
Um, and that's the starting point.

00:18:15.457 --> 00:18:17.203
So you, you wanna work backwards.

00:18:17.218 --> 00:18:21.220
You wanna work from, you know, the
outside in rather than inside out when

00:18:21.221 --> 00:18:26.417
you're talk- meaning s- work from the
client back to you when you're looking

00:18:26.418 --> 00:18:31.392
for differentiation, not inside out and
then seeing if the client accepts it

00:18:33.002 --> 00:18:33.189
Okay.

00:18:34.242 --> 00:18:40.682
thing that MSPs tend to run into a
lot in prospecting is just sort of

00:18:41.015 --> 00:18:43.064
whatever I have is good enough, right?

00:18:43.064 --> 00:18:47.761
Like gone are the days where there was
lots of golden opportunity of converting

00:18:47.765 --> 00:18:51.934
people that were on T&M contracts to this
amazing, amazing thing called an MSP.

00:18:52.276 --> 00:18:58.905
And now most businesses either have an
MSP or some type of IT provider that,

00:18:59.019 --> 00:19:02.267
you know, maybe is not knocking it
out of the park, but they're just not

00:19:02.268 --> 00:19:05.918
interested in entertaining something
new because they don't feel that it

00:19:05.918 --> 00:19:10.983
will be different or better, or the pain
is too great to sort of make a switch.

00:19:11.247 --> 00:19:15.376
So if, if you're doing some cold
calling or, you know, dropping into

00:19:15.378 --> 00:19:18.368
some, some offices and people are
like, "Oh yeah, we've already got an

00:19:18.375 --> 00:19:23.117
IT guy," what are some tactics to sort
of like go a level deeper and, and

00:19:23.117 --> 00:19:24.751
sort of push past that resistance?

00:19:25.425 --> 00:19:25.716
Yeah.

00:19:25.887 --> 00:19:29.129
Um, I'll tell you the thing everybody
thinks is gonna work that doesn't

00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:35.928
work is basically saying… Looking
for missed opportunity cost by

00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:39.800
them having, like, a mediocre
provider, it just never translates.

00:19:39.872 --> 00:19:42.792
It actually just makes you look
desperate to be like, "Okay, well,

00:19:42.792 --> 00:19:45.289
what if, you know, what if w- I could
have done it a little bit better?

00:19:45.291 --> 00:19:47.832
How do you think that would've changed
your business if you were only down for

00:19:47.832 --> 00:19:51.899
one minute instead of an hour, and maybe
you could've gotten an extra client?

00:19:51.899 --> 00:19:55.240
And how much would that be worth to
you?" And, like, trying to extrapolate

00:19:55.256 --> 00:20:01.482
and find value through hypothetical
opportunity cost from the status quo.

00:20:01.604 --> 00:20:02.744
It just never works.

00:20:03.466 --> 00:20:08.774
Um, instead, if somebody has somebody
that they're happy with, there's a 90%

00:20:08.774 --> 00:20:12.153
chance that they don't need you to sell
them anything, and maybe you should just

00:20:12.153 --> 00:20:18.503
stop selling and go, "Sounds like you
don- sounds like you're content." Uh, and

00:20:18.503 --> 00:20:22.908
that's where I would start by, by kind
of taking it away a little bit, you know?

00:20:23.325 --> 00:20:25.020
If they go, "You know, I
actually have an IT guy.

00:20:25.235 --> 00:20:29.235
We love him." You go, "Okay, it sounds
like, sounds like you guys are set up.

00:20:29.243 --> 00:20:32.229
Th- this might probably be the last
time we need to have a conversation.

00:20:32.229 --> 00:20:34.453
I just wanna make sure I, uh… If
you don't mind, let me ask a couple

00:20:34.454 --> 00:20:40.215
questions before I go." Because, because
under those circumstances we don't

00:20:40.215 --> 00:20:45.628
want to assume that their definition
of IT is the same as our definition of

00:20:45.628 --> 00:20:50.265
IT, or that their definition of good
is the same as our definition of good.

00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:54.185
So we could be like, "Okay, so
just so I cl- what does he do for

00:20:54.185 --> 00:20:59.876
you, just so I can ask?" And he
might only do a couple things.

00:20:59.876 --> 00:21:04.296
Maybe it's just he sold them a
firewall that leased with a internet

00:21:04.296 --> 00:21:08.558
circuit through Sandler part- Sandler
Partners, and then he comes by once

00:21:08.558 --> 00:21:11.687
a month and defrags their computer,
and they're, like, really happy.

00:21:12.544 --> 00:21:15.948
All right, but that's not what
you sell, so that could lead

00:21:15.948 --> 00:21:17.032
to a different conversation.

00:21:17.979 --> 00:21:20.874
Maybe it's, like, an MSP that
actually is way better than

00:21:20.876 --> 00:21:22.868
you and you couldn't beat them.

00:21:23.552 --> 00:21:27.098
But we don't know until we figure out,
like, what does this person do, you know?

00:21:27.798 --> 00:21:31.575
But you wanna do that on the way out
the door, i- if you will, uh, um,

00:21:31.587 --> 00:21:33.416
figuratively speaking, meaning know…

00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:38.607
Make sure that they hear you
and don't ignore what they said.

00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.350
Don't be like, "We have an IT guy,
but h- but how do you know he's

00:21:41.351 --> 00:21:43.736
as good as me, and what, how do
you know I'm not better than him?"

00:21:44.645 --> 00:21:45.878
It's just not gonna be successful.

00:21:45.888 --> 00:21:48.662
Go, uh, I call it, I call
it closing the folder.

00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.660
Like, you have a sales folder in front
of them and they go, "We're happy."

00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:53.573
You go, "Okay," and you close the folder.

00:21:53.657 --> 00:21:55.526
And now they feel safer.

00:21:55.962 --> 00:21:58.865
You… They feel like you're not gonna
keep pushing super hard, and they might

00:21:58.866 --> 00:22:02.026
be a little bit more candid with you,
and it also demonstrates that you're…

00:22:02.098 --> 00:22:03.248
it's just a conversation

00:22:03.506 --> 00:22:04.030
That's right.

00:22:04.234 --> 00:22:04.550
That's right.

00:22:04.550 --> 00:22:05.531
And you're listening to them.

00:22:05.631 --> 00:22:07.336
Um, so that's kind of the move.

00:22:07.363 --> 00:22:10.703
And then, you know, like, you could
always do the, like, "Would you like

00:22:10.704 --> 00:22:11.954
to see what good looks like from us?"

00:22:11.954 --> 00:22:12.676
But why would they?

00:22:12.733 --> 00:22:15.158
If they don't have any pain, then
there's just, there's no sale

00:22:16.448 --> 00:22:19.781
So is this, like this is not a matter
of like there's a way to sort of

00:22:19.790 --> 00:22:21.919
hack this resistance and get past it?

00:22:21.921 --> 00:22:25.046
It's really just sort of you should move
on to greener pasture and find somebody

00:22:25.048 --> 00:22:26.776
else who is maybe having some pain?

00:22:28.378 --> 00:22:30.408
It could, yeah, I think very often, yeah.

00:22:30.447 --> 00:22:34.077
Um, what I… It doesn't mean
that the second somebody objects,

00:22:34.081 --> 00:22:35.604
you just, like, cower away.

00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.633
Again, it's about b- the, the move
here is not to become persistent,

00:22:41.209 --> 00:22:43.160
the move is to become curious.

00:22:44.575 --> 00:22:47.447
And if you could become genuinely
curious and like, "Wow, you know

00:22:47.447 --> 00:22:52.912
what? I'm actually, I'm really s-
pardon me being so aghast, but you

00:22:52.912 --> 00:22:55.796
don't know how rare it is that I meet
somebody who loves their IT guy."

00:22:57.178 --> 00:23:00.149
And they chuckle, and you go, "Do you
mind if I ask what makes you love him?"

00:23:02.677 --> 00:23:06.325
And talk about, get them to talk
about what he's doing right instead

00:23:06.325 --> 00:23:08.925
of saying, "What is he doing wrong
that I could improve?" Because

00:23:08.926 --> 00:23:10.529
then they, they feel exploited.

00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:13.224
They're like, "I just told you to go
away, and you didn't hear me." You

00:23:13.224 --> 00:23:17.020
go, "Wow, I'm just gonna be honest,
so many people don't like IT guys

00:23:17.022 --> 00:23:18.195
because our industry, you know it.

00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:21.138
You know what we're like." And
they chuckle. "Do you mind if

00:23:21.138 --> 00:23:22.306
I ask what you love about him?

00:23:22.695 --> 00:23:26.386
Like, what, what makes you happy?" And
then get some information there, and then

00:23:26.386 --> 00:23:29.678
go, "Okay, and he's probably got your
cybers handled, and I'm assuming that he's

00:23:29.678 --> 00:23:31.393
got a plan for you guys to use AI, right?

00:23:31.393 --> 00:23:32.653
He sounds like he's on top of it."

00:23:33.395 --> 00:23:35.214
And that would be your way
of … That's sort of a

00:23:35.214 --> 00:23:37.020
non-threatening discovery question.

00:23:37.995 --> 00:23:41.841
"So he's good on AI, you're good
on, uh, cyber, and then you gu- are

00:23:41.841 --> 00:23:43.849
good on X other thing that we do.

00:23:43.867 --> 00:23:45.397
You guys, your phones
are covered and stuff.

00:23:45.830 --> 00:23:49.190
Well, listen, it sounds like you guys f-
found a, found a good, uh, found a winner.

00:23:49.732 --> 00:23:53.102
Um, you tell me, Miss Customer,
is there any reason for me to even

00:23:53.102 --> 00:23:54.291
follow up with you in the future?"

00:23:56.433 --> 00:23:59.314
And the truth is, Todd, that if
they actually have any cur- any

00:23:59.316 --> 00:24:01.568
need in there, they're gonna be
like, "Well, what do you do?"

00:24:02.486 --> 00:24:02.496
Right.

00:24:02.496 --> 00:24:02.506
Yeah

00:24:02.701 --> 00:24:05.843
Because you've, you've demonstrated
like an, being a normal person.

00:24:06.745 --> 00:24:08.215
But if you just go,
"Well, how do you know?

00:24:08.216 --> 00:24:10.948
I'm probably better than him, and maybe
you're overpaying, and let me just see a

00:24:10.948 --> 00:24:14.835
quote," and, and trying to force people
who don't, aren't asking for anything

00:24:14.836 --> 00:24:17.754
into a sale, you end up in a bad spot

00:24:18.374 --> 00:24:19.317
Yeah, that's great.

00:24:19.401 --> 00:24:19.875
I love that.

00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:27.011
Um, another issue that people tend to face
is relying a little too much on FUD, and I

00:24:27.018 --> 00:24:27.028
Mhm.

00:24:27.182 --> 00:24:30.164
that you're kind of very much
against fear-based sales.

00:24:30.541 --> 00:24:35.611
Um, but I think people kinda hear
this as a way to sort of break

00:24:35.617 --> 00:24:39.030
through to a business owner that
really doesn't care about IT.

00:24:39.040 --> 00:24:42.723
And quite frankly, like that's
most of the MSP prospecting market.

00:24:42.736 --> 00:24:43.849
They don't know what we do.

00:24:43.866 --> 00:24:45.081
They don't particularly care.

00:24:45.082 --> 00:24:47.144
That's why they're partnering with you.

00:24:47.482 --> 00:24:52.072
So how do you break through to kind
of a reluctantly engaged prospect

00:24:52.087 --> 00:24:53.621
where they're like, "Eh, I don't know.

00:24:53.621 --> 00:24:54.146
I don't care.

00:24:54.176 --> 00:24:56.308
I, I, I don't think any of
this is very interesting.

00:24:56.310 --> 00:24:59.343
I don't think I need this."
Uh, if you're not gonna rely on

00:24:59.355 --> 00:25:00.751
FUD, then how do you do that?

00:25:00.793 --> 00:25:04.178
Saying like, this is past, you know,
you've-- you're actually in a meeting

00:25:04.178 --> 00:25:07.890
with them talking about what you do
and what you offer, or even more so

00:25:07.927 --> 00:25:12.289
in a QBR, like from the, a bit more
on the account management strategy,

00:25:12.435 --> 00:25:15.917
similar approaches, but they're just
sort of like, "Meh, I'm not that

00:25:15.917 --> 00:25:19.906
interested," and people tend to rely on
fear in order to drive that engagement.

00:25:19.924 --> 00:25:22.991
So if that's the wrong approach,
how do you sort of get to the

00:25:22.991 --> 00:25:24.378
same result in a different way?

00:25:24.910 --> 00:25:25.201
Yeah.

00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:25.602
Yeah.

00:25:26.411 --> 00:25:28.794
Well, l- imagine it this way, right?

00:25:28.794 --> 00:25:30.456
That, like, all business

00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:39.434
Leader, most of business leadership
is about mitigating risk, not just on

00:25:39.438 --> 00:25:44.196
IT, but like people who go to business
school are actually considerably less

00:25:44.196 --> 00:25:49.727
likely to be entrepreneurs because what
they teach you in business school is

00:25:49.774 --> 00:25:56.834
everything that can go wrong and how to
m- how to, uh, mitigate risk and l- like

00:25:56.843 --> 00:25:59.072
shorten as much downside as possible.

00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:07.722
And, and yet, is a CFO using FUD when
the CFO goes, "Yeah, you can't spend

00:26:07.722 --> 00:26:11.333
more money than you make here, John Cho.
You can't keep doing that. You're gonna

00:26:11.333 --> 00:26:15.689
run out of money." Like, that's not
FUD, that's just business leadership.

00:26:16.348 --> 00:26:20.309
And so the thing is that when we
don't hold ourselves or we aren't

00:26:20.314 --> 00:26:26.253
perceived at, at an executive level as
a true thought leader in technology,

00:26:26.818 --> 00:26:30.709
then we come across as, like…

00:26:31.878 --> 00:26:34.314
Did you ever, do you ever watch
The Office, the American Office?

00:26:35.838 --> 00:26:36.303
Well,

00:26:36.443 --> 00:26:37.761
the memes, but never watched it,

00:26:37.877 --> 00:26:38.535
well, okay.

00:26:38.536 --> 00:26:42.091
Well, there's an episode where there's
insurance, there's this Italian-American

00:26:42.092 --> 00:26:46.085
insurance guy who comes in and he's
a really pushy sales guy, and Michael

00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:50.046
thinks he's getting shaken down by the
mob bec- just because he's Italian.

00:26:50.528 --> 00:26:55.122
But he sells insurance, and he was like,
"Hey, you never know. A truck r- runs off

00:26:55.124 --> 00:26:59.634
the side of the road, there's injury. This
place could go up in flames tomorrow." And

00:26:59.636 --> 00:27:02.370
he just sounds like a schmuck, you know?

00:27:02.745 --> 00:27:05.196
Uh, and you don't take him seriously
as an it… And then he's like,

00:27:05.197 --> 00:27:07.831
"I'm gonna keep following up.
I'm gonna be very persistent."

00:27:08.431 --> 00:27:11.424
And then Michael goes, "Oh my God,
I think he's in the mob and I think

00:27:11.425 --> 00:27:14.006
he's threatening my life." It's
actually, now that I think about

00:27:14.008 --> 00:27:15.086
it, it's a great example for this.

00:27:15.495 --> 00:27:21.078
Like, you can talk about risk mitigation
without it having to be fear-mongering.

00:27:21.605 --> 00:27:25.699
It's really more about the positioning
and how you wanna be perceived.

00:27:26.846 --> 00:27:27.462
Do you know what I mean?

00:27:27.662 --> 00:27:30.372
So yes, when somebody's like,
"Hey, I just don't care about

00:27:30.372 --> 00:27:31.529
cyber," you go, "Yeah, of course.

00:27:31.530 --> 00:27:32.209
I don't blame you.

00:27:32.215 --> 00:27:35.153
I wouldn't… Th- that's why
I'm here is so that you don't

00:27:35.154 --> 00:27:36.217
have to care about cyber.

00:27:36.464 --> 00:27:38.896
But let me explain w- what that means.

00:27:39.494 --> 00:27:41.735
My job is to close a
bunch of doors for you.

00:27:41.786 --> 00:27:45.484
I just told you that these ones are
open, and today I'm not equipped

00:27:45.532 --> 00:27:46.784
to close them on your behalf.

00:27:46.928 --> 00:27:50.605
So really, if you'd like to continue
not caring about this, you need to

00:27:50.605 --> 00:27:52.424
empower me to take care of it for you.

00:27:53.910 --> 00:27:55.430
Do you want me to keep being your IT guy?

00:27:55.462 --> 00:27:55.810
Good.

00:27:55.847 --> 00:27:57.505
This will be the last
time we talk about it.

00:27:57.523 --> 00:28:00.646
Just give me the keys to the
kingdom and I will keep it safe

00:28:00.657 --> 00:28:03.215
for you." I don't think that's FUD.

00:28:03.442 --> 00:28:04.191
Do you know what I'm saying?

00:28:04.651 --> 00:28:05.478
But where

00:28:05.547 --> 00:28:06.965
stewardship in a m- more so,

00:28:07.162 --> 00:28:08.302
it's, it's exactly right.

00:28:08.302 --> 00:28:11.727
We're steward- we are stewards of
their business so that, and they are

00:28:11.729 --> 00:28:14.721
stewards of their business, and you
can empower someone to be a steward

00:28:14.721 --> 00:28:19.701
without being like, you know, be-
being extreme, being the other way.

00:28:20.013 --> 00:28:22.571
And I will say the last thing, I
know I'm, I'm giving long answers,

00:28:22.836 --> 00:28:26.580
but Todd, a lot of people push
back on me because FUD works

00:28:27.486 --> 00:28:27.966
Read, ja

00:28:29.274 --> 00:28:34.429
Um, to which I say, "Yeah, do
you know what the number one best

00:28:34.508 --> 00:28:36.416
possible tactic is to close a deal?

00:28:36.613 --> 00:28:39.610
Bar none, if it's, if the only
metric is get the deal closed.

00:28:40.843 --> 00:28:41.573
It's lying.

00:28:43.005 --> 00:28:43.888
Works like a charm.

00:28:44.574 --> 00:28:44.734
Ja.

00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:45.644
Every time.

00:28:45.644 --> 00:28:49.412
Just tell them whatever they need
to hear, hide the real truth in the

00:28:49.414 --> 00:28:52.459
fine print, and get them to sign it,
and then you say, 'Not my problem.

00:28:52.459 --> 00:28:55.856
You should have read it.' That's
the best closing tactic there is.

00:28:56.565 --> 00:28:57.785
Does that mean we should use it?"

00:28:59.746 --> 00:29:02.956
Well, especially in our industry
because like I always, I always say like

00:29:02.970 --> 00:29:07.108
we're, MSP sales is difficult because
you're essentially selling trust,

00:29:07.498 --> 00:29:07.508
Mhm.

00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:12.825
So if you sell trust by lying to
people, that's, that's not gonna work,

00:29:13.011 --> 00:29:13.844
That's what I'm saying.

00:29:13.997 --> 00:29:17.195
And so like, yeah, okay,
that would get deals done.

00:29:18.736 --> 00:29:21.350
But I don't wanna… That's not how
I'm, that's not how I live my life.

00:29:21.355 --> 00:29:23.338
That's not how I do it, uh, period.

00:29:23.350 --> 00:29:27.995
I'm going to rise above my
animalistic desire to get to coerce

00:29:28.004 --> 00:29:31.111
someone into giving me what I want,
and I'm going to be a freaking

00:29:31.125 --> 00:29:32.783
reasonable, trustworthy per- partner.

00:29:32.964 --> 00:29:35.893
And the truth is that long-term,
you're gonna have the relationships.

00:29:35.907 --> 00:29:37.966
You know, Todd, you've been
in this channel a long time.

00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:43.048
There's a few… If I, if I mention a
few characteristics of some MSP vendors,

00:29:43.405 --> 00:29:49.044
MSP vendors who burn a lot of MSPs, who
have been through the market a lot, and

00:29:49.047 --> 00:29:51.100
who everybody… You know the names.

00:29:51.639 --> 00:29:52.788
You can see their faces.

00:29:52.801 --> 00:29:54.167
You know who I'm talking about.

00:29:55.097 --> 00:30:01.205
Like, yeah, they've made a ton of money
by being people that are not admirable.

00:30:01.628 --> 00:30:04.195
And so, okay, are they successful?

00:30:04.283 --> 00:30:06.240
Not by my definition of success.

00:30:06.624 --> 00:30:09.693
I would never want to look
to emulate that person

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:12.252
You know what I mean?

00:30:12.308 --> 00:30:15.616
And now a lot of those people, uh,
there is eventually a reckoning.

00:30:16.326 --> 00:30:20.391
You can only sort of be a con man
for so long before people catch on.

00:30:21.101 --> 00:30:24.944
And that's how when, when you're
coming in trying to undercut a

00:30:24.946 --> 00:30:29.646
trust-driven relationship using fear
with a stranger, you come across as

00:30:29.647 --> 00:30:34.418
a con man, rightly so, and your trust
is permanently gone with that person

00:30:36.734 --> 00:30:41.486
So the, the, like the building
of a salesperson, right?

00:30:41.509 --> 00:30:46.642
Like, uh, how much of this, uh, is
innate skill versus something that

00:30:46.642 --> 00:30:48.208
you learn and can build, right?

00:30:48.225 --> 00:30:51.171
Like I, I, think you come at
this as from a different angle.

00:30:51.171 --> 00:30:55.468
I think you have the t- the
stereotypical entrepreneurial sales,

00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:58.771
uh, um, story of selling kids to…

00:30:58.858 --> 00:31:00.691
Uh, selling candy to
the kids in the school,

00:31:01.013 --> 00:31:01.418
Ja

00:31:01.561 --> 00:31:03.518
you're, you're the typical
lemonade stand kid.

00:31:03.934 --> 00:31:04.218
Ja

00:31:04.643 --> 00:31:07.794
do you think that that had
a bearing on your success?

00:31:07.851 --> 00:31:11.101
And I think you… I've heard you
speak of some examples where you took

00:31:11.102 --> 00:31:14.000
someone who had no skill set at all and

00:31:14.149 --> 00:31:14.310
Hm.

00:31:14.575 --> 00:31:15.739
incredibly successful.

00:31:15.961 --> 00:31:16.280
How much

00:31:16.310 --> 00:31:16.430
Ja.

00:31:16.449 --> 00:31:21.319
attribute that to the things that they
learned versus the systems that you use?

00:31:21.723 --> 00:31:23.571
Yeah, really good question, Todd.

00:31:23.634 --> 00:31:26.628
Um, I mean, undeniably it's helped
me, that it's in my temperament to

00:31:26.629 --> 00:31:31.992
be… I think that would be, that'd
be, uh, total BS to be like, "No, it's

00:31:32.001 --> 00:31:34.366
all, I get all the, all the credit
and this was all hard work." Like,

00:31:34.379 --> 00:31:41.341
yeah, I'm a, a, a charming, outgoing,
extrovert, high energy, high drive guy.

00:31:42.247 --> 00:31:42.918
You know what I mean?

00:31:43.209 --> 00:31:46.629
And all of those things are to my
benefit and I can't pretend they aren't.

00:31:47.481 --> 00:31:53.466
Also, um, there's a lot of really
charming high drive p- losers who

00:31:53.468 --> 00:31:54.680
never achieve anything, you know?

00:31:55.102 --> 00:31:58.823
So it's not like I was just… Like, I
also had to pick up the phone all those

00:31:58.825 --> 00:32:02.834
times in a row to, to find those, to start
those conversations to close those deals.

00:32:02.834 --> 00:32:09.667
So, um, the, I think, us- you're,
you're gonna have a l- a ceiling if

00:32:09.667 --> 00:32:14.531
you're like a talent… This comes
up in acting a lot too actually.

00:32:14.646 --> 00:32:19.629
Um, a lot of really famous
actors were not natural actors.

00:32:20.808 --> 00:32:27.010
They had to work super, super, super
hard for a long time at it, like decades

00:32:27.423 --> 00:32:28.957
before anybody gave a crap about them.

00:32:28.965 --> 00:32:32.084
Mark Ruffalo didn't get his
first break until his late 30s.

00:32:32.084 --> 00:32:33.754
He had been an actor for like 15 years.

00:32:33.908 --> 00:32:37.328
Nobody cared about Mark Ruffalo
'cause he was not natural at it.

00:32:38.377 --> 00:32:41.646
And then there's the Margot Robbies
who book their first audition for a

00:32:41.785 --> 00:32:44.435
Australian soap opera and then come
to New York and book their first

00:32:44.435 --> 00:32:47.149
movie audition for Wolf of Wall
Street because she's Margot Robbie.

00:32:47.189 --> 00:32:52.840
And yeah, she's gonna be successful as an
entertainer because she's Margot Robbie.

00:32:53.093 --> 00:32:53.613
Okay?

00:32:53.982 --> 00:32:59.122
Um, but so many of the top performers
actually had to overcome obstacles

00:32:59.595 --> 00:33:01.008
in order to achieve their results.

00:33:01.010 --> 00:33:05.172
So I don't think it's necessarily
about… It's, it's more about

00:33:05.172 --> 00:33:08.068
your grit than your innate talent.

00:33:08.136 --> 00:33:13.102
And maybe grit is innate, so in that way
maybe, maybe this is a backwards answer.

00:33:13.995 --> 00:33:17.267
But it's more like how many times
in a row are you willing to do

00:33:17.267 --> 00:33:20.848
this is going to determine if
you can be successful at sales.

00:33:21.288 --> 00:33:25.569
And if it's less natural for you
than me, then sure, you might have

00:33:25.575 --> 00:33:29.369
to do 10,000 times to my 7,500.

00:33:30.782 --> 00:33:34.156
So the question is are you going
to do it 10,000 times or are you

00:33:34.156 --> 00:33:35.761
only going to do it 1,000 times?

00:33:35.783 --> 00:33:40.211
That's the bigger determiner
versus do you need 7,500 or 10,000

00:33:41.037 --> 00:33:41.218
Yeah.

00:33:41.362 --> 00:33:41.671
Okay.

00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:46.155
Uh, I guess related as well, like I'm
an ops person through and through, and

00:33:46.155 --> 00:33:51.323
I tend to always view o- like, I never
viewed myself as very good at sales.

00:33:51.413 --> 00:33:55.782
Um, when I, I was good at warm sales,
so if I was brought into like a warm

00:33:55.783 --> 00:33:59.140
prospect that was second meeting,
I would do very well, and that,

00:33:59.151 --> 00:34:00.391
that worked pretty well for me.

00:34:00.743 --> 00:34:05.166
Um, m- my lens for sales is very
much about the systems approach

00:34:05.166 --> 00:34:09.117
to it of do these things and you
will produce good outcomes, right?

00:34:09.157 --> 00:34:16.151
Like, yes, there are, um, some sort of
emotional sleight of hand, some engagement

00:34:16.158 --> 00:34:20.625
techniques, some, you know, some
prospecting, uh, tricks that you can do.

00:34:20.938 --> 00:34:23.395
Like, those are some of the things that
you can pick up, and the way, the way that

00:34:23.395 --> 00:34:27.241
you act and the way that you do things I
think are, are a big component of this.

00:34:27.242 --> 00:34:30.315
But my favorite expression that
I use about sales to sort of

00:34:30.315 --> 00:34:34.020
the RevOps side of things is
activity precedes results, right?

00:34:34.071 --> 00:34:37.481
And I'm very curious if people are
not achieving the results, I wanna

00:34:37.481 --> 00:34:41.539
see your activity because, you know,
you need to get those reps in in order

00:34:41.539 --> 00:34:43.742
to achieve something out of this.

00:34:44.081 --> 00:34:48.059
So how much do you put weight
in the idea that there are

00:34:48.060 --> 00:34:49.709
systems that are required, right?

00:34:49.709 --> 00:34:53.126
Like I've heard you talk a bit about, you
know, if you're a professional, you should

00:34:53.127 --> 00:34:54.988
be using a CRM, those sorts of things.

00:34:55.243 --> 00:34:58.293
I don't find that those things
come naturally to a lot of people

00:34:58.293 --> 00:34:59.831
that I see in the sales industry.

00:35:00.105 --> 00:35:04.701
And how much should we sort of push
people towards that, of the mechanics

00:35:04.794 --> 00:35:08.988
of sales is just as important
around the techniques and sort of

00:35:08.992 --> 00:35:10.816
the, the personal influence part?

00:35:11.413 --> 00:35:11.704
Yeah.

00:35:11.745 --> 00:35:13.015
Uh, that's every- that's all of it.

00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:15.035
It's, it's mechanics is the right word.

00:35:15.086 --> 00:35:20.773
Like, sales is a series of processes
and SOPs, and y- you're gonna get

00:35:20.773 --> 00:35:24.703
leverage via tools, just like it's
exactly like on the operations side.

00:35:25.359 --> 00:35:26.935
Sales is operations.

00:35:27.164 --> 00:35:32.148
It's just hard- way, way more ambiguous,
and there's a lot more waiting.

00:35:32.214 --> 00:35:34.997
But then once you have a
data set, then you can start

00:35:34.999 --> 00:35:36.635
forecasting much more accurately.

00:35:37.147 --> 00:35:37.750
Do you know what I'm saying?

00:35:37.763 --> 00:35:40.497
When you have data intelligence
based off of a data set, you know

00:35:40.746 --> 00:35:45.206
500 cold calls gets me a client,
then it's no longer ambiguous.

00:35:45.241 --> 00:35:46.184
Pick up the phone more.

00:35:46.841 --> 00:35:47.630
That's the answer.

00:35:47.951 --> 00:35:51.976
So the thing is that because it's
unnatural for MS- for technical founders,

00:35:51.976 --> 00:35:55.146
it sounds like that's really the q-
the lens you're asking these questions

00:35:55.147 --> 00:35:56.493
through is like a technical founder.

00:35:57.273 --> 00:36:01.627
It's un- it's unnatural, so you just
like want to f- you want another answer.

00:36:02.195 --> 00:36:05.986
You keep shaking the eight ball waiting
for a different answer, going to IT Nation

00:36:05.995 --> 00:36:07.498
again waiting for a different answer.

00:36:07.715 --> 00:36:08.830
The answer's never gonna change.

00:36:09.003 --> 00:36:14.385
It's the simple and hard repetitive tasks
that will get you new clients, period.

00:36:15.222 --> 00:36:19.905
Make more … I say in my c- in my
coaching community when people are

00:36:19.905 --> 00:36:22.497
like, "Eh, I tried that, doesn't
work," and I say, "You're not allowed

00:36:22.497 --> 00:36:25.595
to tell me something doesn't work
until you've tried it 1,000 times."

00:36:26.054 --> 00:36:26.194
Ja,

00:36:26.575 --> 00:36:27.219
That's my number.

00:36:27.731 --> 00:36:30.513
'Cause how many tries did it
take Edison to make a light bulb?

00:36:30.537 --> 00:36:31.814
Over 900 tries, right?

00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:36.149
And he was like, "I found 900 ways
to not make a light bulb," or 700.

00:36:36.162 --> 00:36:37.149
W- it was a high number.

00:36:38.374 --> 00:36:42.735
Um, so okay, that's like
my, that's my metric.

00:36:43.021 --> 00:36:46.610
If you have tried it 1,000 times,
you can tell me it doesn't work.

00:36:46.665 --> 00:36:51.514
If you tried it four times, you can go
quit freaking whining and do the job

00:36:53.649 --> 00:36:54.446
You see what I'm saying?

00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:58.916
no, I, I totally agree, and this is what
I, I find is a, a bit problematic and

00:36:58.918 --> 00:37:01.957
why I'm sort of asking these questions
through the technical founder lens is

00:37:02.011 --> 00:37:05.744
I think this is the group that needs
to hear a lot of this the most, right?

00:37:05.744 --> 00:37:08.612
Because they're somewhat introverted.

00:37:08.839 --> 00:37:11.906
They're a bit pessimistic about these
ideas of like, "Oh, that's crap.

00:37:11.906 --> 00:37:15.710
It doesn't work." Like, "I, I would
not take calls from, from anyone.

00:37:15.726 --> 00:37:17.563
All these vendors are
bothering me," right?

00:37:17.565 --> 00:37:20.912
So they tend to apply their psychology
to everyone else that they're

00:37:20.913 --> 00:37:22.364
potentially trying to prospect to.

00:37:22.803 --> 00:37:27.618
Uh, and, you know, uh, they always end
up wanting to hide behind a keyboard of

00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:31.983
like, "Well, can't I just put together
a really good SEO campaign or an AdWords

00:37:31.984 --> 00:37:35.697
campaign, and then, uh, the floodgates
will open, and I will have all of the

00:37:35.707 --> 00:37:40.619
inbound that I need?" And like, sure,
like, that's not necessarily a terrible

00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:44.185
strategy, but I don't think it's very
reliable, and it's very expensive.

00:37:44.515 --> 00:37:48.222
Uh, versus, like you say,
of just like make 100 calls.

00:37:48.443 --> 00:37:52.037
That was honestly one of the best pieces
of advi- of advice I got when I was

00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.804
first starting my consulting company.

00:37:54.117 --> 00:37:59.383
A friend of mine, a mentor of mine said,
"Todd, it's legs and lungs. Move around

00:37:59.383 --> 00:38:03.162
as much as you can and talk to as many
people as you can." And I was like, "Huh,

00:38:03.451 --> 00:38:06.976
that seems deceivingly simple. I guess
I'll give it a try." And lo and behold,

00:38:07.083 --> 00:38:09.812
like, there was two things that I think
were very, very valuable out of that.

00:38:09.826 --> 00:38:14.908
One, it helped me to refine what I was
trying to say o- over and over and over

00:38:14.909 --> 00:38:18.570
again until, like, I felt better and more
comfortable pitching what I was doing.

00:38:18.954 --> 00:38:22.233
And then I also realized the
second piece was I was not pitching

00:38:22.233 --> 00:38:23.480
to everyone that I talked to.

00:38:23.583 --> 00:38:27.731
I was just looking for feedback, inputs,
and additional people to talk to, right?

00:38:27.786 --> 00:38:27.796
Ja

00:38:27.862 --> 00:38:30.422
eventually they're like, "Oh, that
sounds interesting. You should talk

00:38:30.422 --> 00:38:32.122
to my friend so and so." And then

00:38:32.181 --> 00:38:32.476
Ja

00:38:32.671 --> 00:38:34.895
not that I'm pitching this
person for the product.

00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:37.857
And I think that that's a really
powerful strategy for people to just

00:38:37.867 --> 00:38:41.212
get up, move around, and start talking
to as many people as you can about

00:38:41.214 --> 00:38:43.041
what you're trying to provide, right?

00:38:43.413 --> 00:38:43.714
Yeah.

00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:45.581
There's a reason everybody
knows who you are, Todd.

00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:48.139
And by the way, this is our
first conversation, isn't it?

00:38:48.774 --> 00:38:49.061
Ja

00:38:49.514 --> 00:38:53.013
But we both knew who we
each other were for years.

00:38:53.334 --> 00:38:53.833
Yeah, yeah

00:38:54.182 --> 00:38:56.872
And there's a reason people know who
you are, because of the legs and lungs.

00:38:56.879 --> 00:38:57.682
Like, I love that.

00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:04.006
Um, but let me say it this way, like,
sometimes people hear me and they get

00:39:04.007 --> 00:39:07.612
discouraged, especially because I can,
espec- in contexts like these, I can

00:39:07.613 --> 00:39:09.657
be very direct on, like, an interview.

00:39:10.741 --> 00:39:16.339
Um, people take it personal when if,
if f- they were to hear something like,

00:39:16.352 --> 00:39:21.400
"You aren't good enough at this skill
today." This is not a personal attack.

00:39:22.167 --> 00:39:23.868
This is a benchmark.

00:39:24.969 --> 00:39:29.273
If you, you're comparing somebody's
cybersecurity posture against NIST

00:39:29.701 --> 00:39:34.393
and they're not compliant, it's
not an attack on their business.

00:39:34.536 --> 00:39:38.483
This is a data point, and you're
gonna use that data point to create an

00:39:38.494 --> 00:39:41.991
action plan to close the delta, right?

00:39:42.180 --> 00:39:47.668
That's, that's all technical people
do all day: collect data, identify

00:39:47.668 --> 00:39:52.028
a goal, quantify the delta, make
an action plan, and execute it.

00:39:52.731 --> 00:39:58.367
That's all I'm asking you to do, is
to unemotionally observe the data

00:39:58.367 --> 00:40:00.084
points of your current skill set.

00:40:00.626 --> 00:40:04.481
But if you wanted to, you could think of
even the soft skills and the social quirks

00:40:04.481 --> 00:40:05.833
and the stuff you were referring to.

00:40:06.245 --> 00:40:10.904
Dude, 90-plus percent of that you could
write an SOP for how to make a friend.

00:40:11.864 --> 00:40:14.554
You could write an SOP for how
to pick up a partner at a bar.

00:40:15.688 --> 00:40:18.543
I could do, we could do
it, because it exists.

00:40:18.781 --> 00:40:20.979
Like, psychology is science.

00:40:21.261 --> 00:40:25.391
It's, it's not just art, and
really all art is, is an intuitive

00:40:25.393 --> 00:40:27.435
understanding of an underlying science.

00:40:28.382 --> 00:40:28.816
So

00:40:28.855 --> 00:40:31.279
give you a really excellent
example of this, Brian, right?

00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:34.353
Like, and this is, this is reflecting
back, like something that I took away

00:40:34.354 --> 00:40:39.118
from you in, at, at your talk at ScaleCon,
is, uh, yes, you're an introvert.

00:40:39.167 --> 00:40:40.644
You're not very good at networking.

00:40:40.869 --> 00:40:44.227
Here's a strategy to help you at one
of these networking events when you're,

00:40:44.274 --> 00:40:47.491
you're, you're, you're stuck as a
wallflower, and there are these little

00:40:47.492 --> 00:40:49.298
pods of people standing around talking.

00:40:49.601 --> 00:40:52.213
Walk up to one of them, just
sort of slide in and be like,

00:40:52.682 --> 00:40:54.178
"Hey, what'd I miss?" Right?

00:40:54.503 --> 00:40:55.402
Like, "What's up?" Right?

00:40:55.451 --> 00:40:59.957
And it's such a simple and deflective
way of just, like reducing the mental

00:40:59.958 --> 00:41:03.977
load of like, how do I show up and
introduce myself and not stand there

00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:05.928
awkwardly for 15 minutes and then just

00:41:06.106 --> 00:41:06.326
Ja.

00:41:06.750 --> 00:41:07.067
right?

00:41:07.120 --> 00:41:10.293
Because to your point, people
are actually very, very inviting.

00:41:10.294 --> 00:41:13.020
They're like, "Oh, hey, this is so-and-so.
We were talking about this thing." And

00:41:13.020 --> 00:41:16.025
then all of a sudden you're in, you're
involved in the group, and all of that

00:41:16.262 --> 00:41:20.043
sort of mental baggage of how difficult
it will be to, to network with these

00:41:20.043 --> 00:41:21.977
people completely dissolves, right?

00:41:22.015 --> 00:41:24.655
I think that's a really effective
strategy around like exactly what

00:41:24.656 --> 00:41:27.405
you're saying of like, there's these
little things that you can do to

00:41:27.407 --> 00:41:29.340
make these things easier, but it's

00:41:29.461 --> 00:41:29.729
Ja

00:41:30.104 --> 00:41:32.655
and it's really not as
difficult as we may think it is.

00:41:33.100 --> 00:41:34.821
No, it's not, and you can fake it.

00:41:35.720 --> 00:41:39.051
The amount of highly successful
entrepreneurs that are really just

00:41:39.051 --> 00:41:45.850
sociopaths mimicking human behavior
like, like, nobody's gonna convince

00:41:45.863 --> 00:41:47.913
me that Alex Hormozi is a normal dude.

00:41:48.647 --> 00:41:49.899
There's something wrong with him.

00:41:49.899 --> 00:41:52.810
That's why he's worth $200
million and he's not 40, you know?

00:41:53.140 --> 00:41:56.479
Like, but he just breaks
things down into checklists.

00:41:57.082 --> 00:41:58.814
So, like, let me give you one right now.

00:41:58.814 --> 00:41:59.948
You mentioned QBRs.

00:42:00.509 --> 00:42:04.533
I'm gonna give you three Cs:
compliment, callback, curiosity.

00:42:05.560 --> 00:42:06.698
Do those three things.

00:42:06.701 --> 00:42:08.339
So first of all, compliment people.

00:42:08.397 --> 00:42:11.642
I don't know why people over…
Th- they overcomplicate this.

00:42:12.490 --> 00:42:15.999
Give someone a genuine compliment,
this is all the way back to Carnegie,

00:42:16.488 --> 00:42:19.435
and they will like you more, period.

00:42:19.462 --> 00:42:20.245
It's not hard.

00:42:20.263 --> 00:42:21.622
And it, it just has to be genuine.

00:42:22.151 --> 00:42:23.569
You can't be like, "Nice tooth.

00:42:23.607 --> 00:42:27.444
Okay, anyway, let's buy this
cybersecurity package." It has to be

00:42:27.446 --> 00:42:31.812
like, "Hey, man, you're looking good."
That could be s- that could be it.

00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:33.770
Then I mentioned curiosity.

00:42:33.863 --> 00:42:36.486
Curiosity's the most
charismatic thing you can have.

00:42:37.198 --> 00:42:40.595
Be genuinely interested in the person
you're talking to and they will like you.

00:42:41.232 --> 00:42:44.089
Meaning ask them a question, and if
there's something in there that sparked

00:42:44.127 --> 00:42:49.524
another mental thought for you, follow
that question and just follow the, the

00:42:49.533 --> 00:42:53.390
hair of curiosity through your brain,
and they will feel seen and loved and

00:42:53.390 --> 00:42:54.961
liked, and they will like you back.

00:42:55.406 --> 00:42:56.616
And the last one was callback.

00:42:56.638 --> 00:42:57.057
If you…

00:42:57.540 --> 00:43:00.149
This is for the technical people
on the call who you're going, like,

00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:02.794
building friends is exhausting,
seeing friends is exhausting.

00:43:03.254 --> 00:43:09.111
Recall something from the last time
you spoke and bring it up again.

00:43:10.979 --> 00:43:11.935
Something you discussed.

00:43:11.937 --> 00:43:15.513
Be like, "Hey, whatever happened with
such and such?" Or, "Hey, reme-" Uh,

00:43:15.577 --> 00:43:17.701
even a joke that worked before, like…

00:43:17.814 --> 00:43:18.567
Or something they said.

00:43:18.567 --> 00:43:21.127
"Hey, I remember when you said
that. It made me laugh." Call

00:43:21.138 --> 00:43:24.790
back one thing from a previous
conversation and that is the recipe

00:43:25.077 --> 00:43:26.716
to building an ongoing relationship.

00:43:26.846 --> 00:43:29.988
If you do that in your QBRs, even
in your sales meetings, call back

00:43:29.989 --> 00:43:33.790
something from your last sales
conversation, you'll be more likable

00:43:35.591 --> 00:43:38.550
But all right, um, couple other
ones before I let you run here.

00:43:38.624 --> 00:43:43.475
Um, the other piece that I don't know
how much, I suppose you h- I mean,

00:43:43.475 --> 00:43:45.815
you have lots of opinions, so I'm
sure you'll have an opinion on this.

00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:49.191
It's a bit outside the, the vein
of sort of, uh, the typical sort of

00:43:49.191 --> 00:43:51.103
prospect lead develop type idea though.

00:43:51.103 --> 00:43:56.581
But one thing I see a lot of organizations
struggle with is how do you appropriately

00:43:56.843 --> 00:43:59.402
hand off a new prospect for onboarding?

00:43:59.762 --> 00:44:04.898
Like you have the owner or a salesperson
that is involved in this, uh, this,

00:44:04.910 --> 00:44:08.053
uh, relationship development with
a new prospect, and then they hand

00:44:08.053 --> 00:44:11.324
them off to, you know, a project
manager or a technical team lead,

00:44:11.573 --> 00:44:13.186
and they're like, "This is John.

00:44:13.198 --> 00:44:17.033
He's gonna run you through this process,
and it's gonna be amazing." And then

00:44:17.034 --> 00:44:20.026
they kind of disappear and they're like,
"Well, but wait, what happened to Brian?

00:44:20.029 --> 00:44:20.891
Like we were buddies.

00:44:20.899 --> 00:44:24.951
He, he sold me this whole thing and now
I don't get to be involved with him?" So

00:44:24.951 --> 00:44:29.187
like what's the crossover that you think
is sort of the best, uh, the best approach

00:44:29.188 --> 00:44:32.955
to this so it's not completely redundant
where the salesperson is wasting all of

00:44:32.955 --> 00:44:35.023
their time, not wasting, but spending

00:44:35.053 --> 00:44:35.423
sure

00:44:35.502 --> 00:44:38.743
time with the onboarding process,
but still having that crossover

00:44:38.743 --> 00:44:41.604
so the comfort- the client feels
comfortable that they've made the

00:44:41.605 --> 00:44:43.150
right decision and there's continuity?

00:44:45.206 --> 00:44:46.346
Yeah, it's a really good question.

00:44:46.442 --> 00:44:51.232
Um, it's more about, I think it's more
about the work you do on the back end

00:44:51.936 --> 00:44:55.625
because obviously, like, they assume the
salesperson isn't gonna be their primary

00:44:55.625 --> 00:44:59.258
point of contact forever, especially
when they know you're a salesperson.

00:44:59.894 --> 00:44:59.904
Mhm.

00:45:00.263 --> 00:45:04.217
Um, if you disguise the fact that
you're a salesperson because you're

00:45:04.218 --> 00:45:06.644
ashamed of being a salesperson,
then you might end up creating some

00:45:06.644 --> 00:45:09.804
confusion during onboarding 'cause it
like, "Oh, I thought you were my…

00:45:10.144 --> 00:45:15.782
You said you were a customer success
liaison, but I never talk to you again?"

00:45:16.261 --> 00:45:19.879
No, just be a salesperson, and then
they'll, it, it will trigger them.

00:45:19.908 --> 00:45:23.764
It'll label appropriately in their mind so
they have more right-sized expectations.

00:45:24.148 --> 00:45:27.249
But it, it, to me, it could be
as simple as a internal meeting.

00:45:27.694 --> 00:45:30.802
It could even be a doc now, and
it could, frankly, it could be an

00:45:30.811 --> 00:45:33.431
agent that just scrapes all the
transcripts from the sales meeting.

00:45:34.017 --> 00:45:41.523
But the onboarding team needs to know who
are these people, what do they do, why

00:45:41.524 --> 00:45:46.430
are they leaving their current solution,
and what was their most recent solution?

00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:48.214
You know what I mean?

00:45:48.464 --> 00:45:49.332
so much in this.

00:45:49.371 --> 00:45:52.399
That's the, uh, uh, as you say
that, I'm like, "Of course you

00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:53.534
need this information," but I

00:45:53.562 --> 00:45:53.866
Yeah

00:45:53.962 --> 00:45:55.679
this happens in most cases.

00:45:55.727 --> 00:45:56.302
It's wild

00:45:56.851 --> 00:46:02.239
Yeah, 'cause if, if they have a
bad MSP now, like we, we want to

00:46:02.249 --> 00:46:05.891
start off on the right foot to
be like, "And why are they bad?

00:46:06.675 --> 00:46:08.059
What don't you like about them?

00:46:08.399 --> 00:46:10.655
Let's position ourselves differently.

00:46:10.657 --> 00:46:12.397
Let's show them better." You know?

00:46:12.621 --> 00:46:16.649
Or if they have an IT guy and we need to
be more of like a show of force, let's

00:46:16.649 --> 00:46:18.763
have three people on the call, you know?

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.776
And we wanna show them
that we have a deep bench.

00:46:21.644 --> 00:46:25.336
Uh, I think work backwards from the
sales questions of what do you need,

00:46:25.343 --> 00:46:29.104
why do you need it, and why don't you
have it, and have those pull through,

00:46:29.104 --> 00:46:31.813
the answers to those questions pull
through into the onboarding phase.

00:46:31.904 --> 00:46:35.473
So we go, "Listen, Brian and I talked
extensively about, uh, your conversations.

00:46:35.482 --> 00:46:36.909
I actually listened to
some of your transcripts.

00:46:37.216 --> 00:46:39.615
I know that the main thing we
wanted to resolve was this phone

00:46:39.617 --> 00:46:42.629
system issue you guys keep having,
so that's the top of my list.

00:46:42.997 --> 00:46:44.843
Um, a- I am gonna get to
that in just a minute.

00:46:44.843 --> 00:46:47.124
Let me set the stage for you guys
a little bit and just walk you

00:46:47.125 --> 00:46:50.341
through what it's gonna be like now
that with your new partnership."

00:46:51.317 --> 00:46:58.621
And proceed your onboarding process with
a ten-second spiel demonstrating that

00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:03.015
the knowledge transfer was successful to
the onboarding person, and the onboarding

00:47:03.015 --> 00:47:05.092
person understands the objectives.

00:47:05.678 --> 00:47:10.034
Then I think you won't need as much
crossover because they will feel like…

00:47:10.066 --> 00:47:12.098
They'll feel the handoff was successful.

00:47:12.121 --> 00:47:15.577
But if they don't get any of that from
their onboarding people, if they keep

00:47:15.587 --> 00:47:18.747
pulling back to your sales reps, it
means your onboarding people aren't

00:47:18.794 --> 00:47:20.631
giving them a high degree of confidence

00:47:22.428 --> 00:47:22.616
Yeah.

00:47:22.979 --> 00:47:23.470
No, that's great.

00:47:23.503 --> 00:47:28.100
Again, like it's that, that continuity
of not sort of the client having to

00:47:28.101 --> 00:47:32.289
repeat themselves and you're reflecting
back like, "I, I actually understand

00:47:32.290 --> 00:47:35.872
why you're here and what you need." It
just creates so much more confidence

00:47:35.878 --> 00:47:37.308
as you're kicking off that strategy.

00:47:37.348 --> 00:47:37.838
That's awesome.

00:47:38.509 --> 00:47:38.711
right.

00:47:39.830 --> 00:47:44.683
Brian, um, what is one thing a technical
owner should start doing next week

00:47:44.685 --> 00:47:46.413
to improve their sales strategies?

00:47:46.413 --> 00:47:49.824
Recognizing like just saying,
you know, start making some calls

00:47:49.830 --> 00:47:52.230
is maybe a bit too much to ask.

00:47:52.614 --> 00:47:57.653
Obviously, we'll link to your podcast
and the group work that you do for,

00:47:57.671 --> 00:47:59.584
for coaching for sales development.

00:47:59.847 --> 00:48:00.930
Those would be good strategies.

00:48:00.934 --> 00:48:04.438
But is there some sort of low bar
that people could take away as,

00:48:04.463 --> 00:48:07.277
as a really actionable strategy
that they could start next week?

00:48:07.926 --> 00:48:08.696
Yeah, for sure.

00:48:08.763 --> 00:48:14.196
Um, go to your favorite client, ask
them to talk to you for 15 minutes, and

00:48:14.198 --> 00:48:18.919
then run a informal customer discovery
interview that basically says like,

00:48:19.086 --> 00:48:20.772
"What do you like about working with us?

00:48:21.049 --> 00:48:22.439
What don't you like about working with us?

00:48:22.805 --> 00:48:23.888
Why did you choose us?

00:48:24.504 --> 00:48:28.906
And if you were me and you want,
and I, and you had to go find more

00:48:28.908 --> 00:48:30.446
people like you, what would you do?"

00:48:31.982 --> 00:48:34.912
And just straight up ask your best
client how to get more best clients

00:48:36.964 --> 00:48:38.254
Basic market research, huh?

00:48:38.616 --> 00:48:38.970
Yeah.

00:48:39.058 --> 00:48:41.038
Uh, we call it a customer
discovery interview.

00:48:41.763 --> 00:48:43.345
I had one today with a client.

00:48:43.397 --> 00:48:46.721
I love the guy, and the truth is,
like, we basically accidentally

00:48:46.723 --> 00:48:48.210
secured a contract renewal with him.

00:48:48.210 --> 00:48:49.482
Was- wasn't even the objective.

00:48:49.513 --> 00:48:52.138
I was like, "What do you want us
to be doing better at, and what are

00:48:52.138 --> 00:48:53.497
some of your wins so that I know?"

00:48:54.122 --> 00:48:57.345
But that market research, that's going
to give you so much better context

00:48:57.353 --> 00:49:00.545
for, like, what's gonna work in the
future, how do I get the right people

00:49:00.740 --> 00:49:03.083
putting the right bait on the hook
to catch the right kind of fish.

00:49:03.093 --> 00:49:03.609
You know what I mean?

00:49:04.216 --> 00:49:07.792
Um, that's something you could do that
doesn't require any new relationships.

00:49:07.816 --> 00:49:11.998
It just requires 20 minutes
and, uh, a relationship that you

00:49:11.998 --> 00:49:14.384
probably already have a strong
relationship with that person.

00:49:15.881 --> 00:49:16.480
That's what I would do

00:49:17.441 --> 00:49:17.597
Awesome.

00:49:18.305 --> 00:49:18.992
has been great, Brian.

00:49:19.067 --> 00:49:24.751
Uh, links to you, your LinkedIn and, uh,
your podcast and your, uh, your program

00:49:24.751 --> 00:49:26.245
as well will be in the show notes.

00:49:26.272 --> 00:49:30.041
Any other last call-outs or calls
to action for anyone listening?

00:49:30.359 --> 00:49:33.823
Uh, just that I wish I would have
asked you more questions because

00:49:34.151 --> 00:49:36.709
I talked way more than you, I
know, in this, uh, conversation.

00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:41.728
But, um, you-- I appreciate what you
do, Todd, and actually you are very

00:49:41.730 --> 00:49:45.173
highly respected, if you don't mind
my saying, uh, by a lot of the people

00:49:45.174 --> 00:49:49.518
in the channel, and I appreciate, uh,
opportunities to have conversations

00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:50.700
with guys like you about this.

00:49:50.731 --> 00:49:52.779
But no, just, just keep your head up.

00:49:52.831 --> 00:49:56.465
My wall behind me says, "This is
going to work," and I mean that.

00:49:56.474 --> 00:50:01.888
Just, uh, treat the unknown… treat
the delta between where you are now

00:50:01.951 --> 00:50:06.066
and where you need to go as a project,
and then break down each one of those

00:50:06.097 --> 00:50:11.373
confusing things into a, a project and
make a scope of work for the project.

00:50:11.390 --> 00:50:14.183
And maybe the scope of work
is get better people skills.

00:50:14.193 --> 00:50:16.741
Okay, fine, then break that
into something manageable.

00:50:17.343 --> 00:50:18.263
And you, you can do it.

00:50:18.325 --> 00:50:21.649
You can close the gap, and you can
become what you need to become to

00:50:21.649 --> 00:50:23.090
achieve what you want to achieve

00:50:24.486 --> 00:50:24.627
Awesome.

00:50:24.728 --> 00:50:25.327
Great advice.

00:50:25.755 --> 00:50:26.586
Thanks for being here, Brian

00:50:26.808 --> 00:50:27.182
Yeah.

00:50:27.270 --> 00:50:27.901
Thanks, man