Brian Ward | IGRS, BARA - NCPG Board Member

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Hello, welcome to another episode of Evive Live.
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My name is Adam Lyons.
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That was a lot of cadence.
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I'm Christina Cook.
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Oh, yeah, no.
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This is a great episode.
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Brian Ward.
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Brian Ward.
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Yeah.
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He's one of the coolest guys.
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I knew when I I first met him, you know, all those years ago, like he just instantly made me feel comfortable and at ease because he just you would think that he was just a girl dad or something, because the way that he especially shows up for women, but he does in fact have voice.
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So um I don't so I don't I don't know about that.
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But he has always been just a super good guy to be around.
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And what's hilarious about him, and I I get this once in a while, but I'm sure not as much as he does.
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Like every once in a while, I'll have someone say to me, if they don't know me and they just saw me, they like see the tattoos, they see the beard and the bald head, they think I'm this like unapproachable, like whatever.
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And then like the minute you hear me speak, oh no, he's fine.
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But like Brian, it's like he's got the beard, he's he's he's he's he's jacked.
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And it's like if you like see him on a zoom, which I did, like I can remember being like a little intimidated and like, oh, who's this guy?
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And then the minute he speaks, he speaks like a like a Harvard graduate, like laureate, like you know, professor.
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Like it's just so funny.
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And it's kind of what we talked about, where it's like a lot of the same points that I try to make, he says the same thing, but his tone and his language is just so much more.
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I mean, I guess it's polished, but it's just non-confrontational, and it's like and it's approachable, and and that's what we need right now in this space with all these conversations we're trying to have.
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We need the Brian Wards of the world who can get the point across without flying off the handle like some people we know once in a while, you know?
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I'm pointing to me.
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If you're not watching on YouTube, I was pointing to me.
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I wasn't calling anyone out.
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It's it's absolutely I mean, I think the way that he just and and I as you'll see in this episode, he'll he how he walks us through a smart recovery kind of skill set.
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Yeah.
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Like you can see how he utilizes this justin every day.
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And I feel like he approaches a lot of conversation with curiosity and kind of like, well, how can we navigate this?
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And he's an absolutely wonderful man, and he was uh so fun to talk to in this episode.
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And I hope you guys get to learn more about Smart Recovery.
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Um, because it's a really it's a really neat um program that can be really helpful if you're not finding yourself connected to 12 step.
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And and one and and just one quick thing about him too.
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It's like he's very knowledgeable, he has a bunch of years of live experience, but he is something that I think most people in his role and in this space could use a little bit of is like he's so humble, he's so modest, you know what I mean?
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And I think that that's such a strength for him because it you you can just tell that no matter, you know, he could be talking to 50 straight people that he clearly knows he knows more than them, but he would never let you know that.
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Like he's always gonna come from a place of humility and wanting to help people, and I think that's just so admirable.
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Absolutely.
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Well, we hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did.
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Here we go.
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Here's our conversation with Brian Ward.
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Hi, everyone, welcome back to EVIB Live.
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I'm Christina Cook, host of the Broke Roll Society.
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And I'm Adam Lyons of The Modern Meeting.
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And today we are here with a really good friend of ours.
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Um, he's done a lot of amazing stuff in the space.
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Mr.
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Brian Ward.
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Hi there, both of you.
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I'm so glad to be here.
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Um, I promise it's it's not against my will.
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I know things look kind of weird.
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I'm under I'm under a pretty big renovation right now, setting up a new space.
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And so this was better than all the exposed wires.
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And I know that you all are familiar with with our mutual friend Kitty, who I'm sure will be sending notes about the lighting and and the general presentation.
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I'm I'm here for uh the content more than the visual.
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Um as long as people can see my beard, I'm in a good place.
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So uh I think we're okay.
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We we look like the good cop, bad cop, and there's like an interrogation light.
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That's exactly how this is gonna go, by the way.
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And you get to decide who's the good cop, bad cop.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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Um so again, super happy that you're coming on to to talk with us and in our audience.
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And just to say a little bit about you, um, I met you four years ago now, I think, in the lovely city of Boston at a conference.
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That's um, and we have been fast friends ever since.
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But you know, like like myself and and Adam, you have lived experience and you've used your lived experience to do some really amazing stuff in this space.
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You are a certified peer in Oregon.
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Um you've done a lot of great things there.
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You're also an international gambling recovery specialist or an IGRS, but you're also a BARA, which is for those who might be interested in getting their IGRSs, the BARA is who will supervise you and who will sign off on your your hours and your work and kind of help offer guidance.
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So I helped create the certification and I am not a BARA.
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So, but it was fantastic that you were you and Kitty and and several others were able to be grandfathered in because of the years of work that you've had um in peer and because you're exemplary, you know, peer supervisors and workers.
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So um that was really exciting when I found out that we were gonna be able to do that.
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Uh it it was it was genuinely thrilling to to know that that was coming.
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It was also all um all thanks to uh Greta Coe at the Oregon Health Authority for recommending Kitty and I to be part of the work group that put together the core competencies.
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Um, she recognizes the value of lived experience, especially when it comes to like coming up with certifications for lived experience.
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And so being part of that work group was was um meaningful.
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It was definitely one of the one of the most meaningful parts and probably one of the most scalable projects that I've ever been able to do.
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And so um I gotta make sure to give credit where credit is due for that as well.
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For sure.
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Absolutely.
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And um, you know, we obviously would love to sit here and hear your entire story.
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Um, but you know, this is eVive live.
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We want to hear more about you know the work you do.
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But before we get to that, we do need to hear at least the abridged version.
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Um, and for those of you who want to listen to the full version, was Brian ever on the BGS?
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Yes.
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Yeah, so you can go to the you can go to the Brokeral Society or the Modern Meeting.
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Brian has been on both, where we hear his story in detail.
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But yeah, just uh to catch the eVive live audience up to speed, tell us a little bit about your lived experience with gambling harm.
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Sure.
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Yeah, um the the probably most relevant information is that I started gambling in the way that I became addicted to when I was 21.
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I was introduced to it um through my mother, who also gambled in the same way.
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In Oregon, we have these video lottery terminals, they kind of play a little bit like real games, and um they are high velocity, uh very easy to get hooked on, and so I did.
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And uh through years of it kind of developing and morphing and and realigning itself with like the the the things that I was finding valuable at the time, and we can talk a little bit more about like the language that I use and all of that, because sometimes it's a little unique, but um but the gambling really found its way into um the elements of my life that I found important and kind of justified its own existence.
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Um so a lot of folks they they view uh financial um financial security as really fundamental for their being.
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And so the gambling will kind of like use that to justify its existence.
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Hey, we know how to get more financially stable.
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For me, it was about like peace, some sense that like, you know, the world didn't have to hurt so bad.
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And particularly when my mom was diagnosed uh with terminal cancer, life got really painful really quick.
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And it was the gambling that was right there to be like, I got you.
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I know exactly how to make you feel a little better, even if it's just for a little while.
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And so uh I I pursued it almost to no end.
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I mean, anything that I could do to engage with it a little bit to just take some of the sting of life off was what I was doing.
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And that included taking money from a protected demographic of people here in Oregon.
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Um, and so in 2017, when there was a financial audit of the place that I was working at the time, um, I excused myself, turned myself into the police and went through the whole kind of justice system up in up until sentencing.
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Um it was uh as as quick as it was, and as much as it happened in a flash, those moments of the sitting and waiting were probably the hardest part, knowing that because I turned myself in, there was gonna need to be a big whole investigation.
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And so we're talking weeks of me just sitting on baited breath, not sure what's going to happen next.
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And that led to everything from like panic attacks that even uh medical staff thought were like heart attacks, and so being advised to go to the hospital to get my heart checked, um uh to like my my then fiance kicking me out of my home.
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So I experienced a few weeks of houselessness, although I was very um grateful to have the friend group and the family that I do that were able to help support me through all that, give me places to stay for a little while.
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Um, and then when it finally came time for me to um to face the judicial system about all of this, I had already been doing quite a bit of work.
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I had started attending gamblers anonymous meetings, um, I had I had retained a sponsor, I was looking for work.
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So by the time I actually got in front of a judge, there was a lot of things that were going right.
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And so here in the state of Oregon, um, because we have a little bit more of a progressive view on things like incarceration uh versus say recovery endeavors, the state agreed that I would be, I would be better suited to be a part of society and try to work towards paying off the money than to be incarcerated and um in a cell.
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So a couple years of probation, um I I did the plea deal, and then pretty much since December of 2017, I've been really kind of committed to um I guess once I realized I wasn't going to prison, it was time for me to get to work.
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And uh, so that's where the last nine years have taken me through working on myself, being through a few rounds of counseling, once the gambling was able to get kind of stabilized, and then it's like, yeah, but there's still this trickiness, there's still there's still these pain points that are happening.
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So another bout of it, and learned about like psychodynamic therapy and all of that, and um and got to a spot where I felt a little bit more comfortable showing up for other folks, and so uh nowadays working as a peer support specialist now both locally and internationally, um doing smart recovery, which I'm sure I'm sure you all will want to hear more about because usually you do.
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And uh and so really just just being able to find enough stability.
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Life's not perfect, it's not great.
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I'm you know, I've got things that happen in life, but having enough stability that I feel comfortable being able to support other folks as well.
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And it's taken me to some pretty amazing places, but I'll save some of that for later on in the discussion.
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So yeah.
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So you mentioned the VLTs or some other parts of the country, the VGTs, video gaming terminals, video lottery terminals.
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Now, when you and I first spoke on the modern meeting uh several months ago, and you described these, and you know, when I when I interviewed Kitty almost a year ago, shout out Kitty.
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I took my glasses off my head for Kitty because she doesn't like them when I put them on my head.
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Um, when you guys described them, I didn't really fully understand what they were until these last few months when I've been going to different conferences throughout the country, particularly in the Midwest, and they're in gas stations, they're in convenience stores, they're in restaurants illegally.
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Um, so talk a little bit about, you know, because we often hear about someone like me who was just as addicted to the comps and the free plays and the and the hotel rooms, where the VLTs and the VGTs, I think it's very kind of similar to online where it's like it's just you and the machine, it's just you and your phone, right?
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So can you talk a little bit more about what that was like compared to like the casino aspect of gambling?
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It's it's an interesting part that you bring up, right?
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Because there is there isn't a social element in the traditional way of like here we are playing blackjack and we're all gonna deal in and interact with each other.
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It's more like parallel play.
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It's it's more here's a group, and in in Oregon, bars and delis are able to have up to six machines at a time.
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And um, the agency that I contract with Voices of Problem Gambling Recovery has actually done some uh some endeavor to make sure that businesses are only having like six machines in each establishment.
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But so it's not like you're you're inherently interacting with other folks.
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Sure, you get a big one, there's gonna be a little kind of celebration around the room, but for the most part, you and the machine are there recognizing that other folks are there with their machine.
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And um, and so it reminds me a lot of people who do like body doubling or you know, for ADHD to like complete tasks.
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We're not engaging together, but knowing that someone else is there doing it too helps to kind of keep me on track, helps to kind of keep me invested in this endeavor.
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And so um I I don't know that I ever would have kind of put that string together or pulled that thread until you just brought it up.
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So see, here we are nine years later, and I'm still trying to put some of these pieces together.
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So yeah.
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I I bring it up because we so we were just in uh where the heck were we?
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We were in uh where were we city, Missouri?
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Yeah, so we were in Kansas City and shout out to uh Ted Hartwell.
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We went to a not a casino, Jesus Christ.
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We what are you doing?
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What are you doing on your time off?
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We went to a karaoke bar, and it's like you walk in and it's this really cool shout out to the water's edge in Blue Springs.
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There's like, you know, everything you could want to do in there.
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There's darts, there's karaoke, there's there's a kitchen open till 1 a.m.
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But sure enough, there's there was a couple slot machines in the corner, and there's two people just mind-numbingly playing those slot machines.
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And I I almost I almost struck up a conversation with them, but I didn't.
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But I just I don't know.
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I I can never get on, I can never understand how a business, especially nowadays, like like how do you justify that?
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How do you justify putting that thing in the corner of a restaurant?
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I don't know.
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Well, I mean, most people don't have the experiences that that I mean, I'm a lot of people do, but most restaurant owners probably are just like, this is gonna bring in a couple extra bucks.
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They're not thinking about how it's gonna impact the people, maybe, and hopefully, you know, restaurant owners and things, if they see a regular who might be experiencing harm, hopefully they'll step in and give resources.
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Most likely, I think from our own experiences, that doesn't happen.
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But um, I guess that's a little bit of hope that we can leave with them.
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And yeah, and I do kind of relate it to this, the the same could be said about any kind of like addictive substance that's readily available, right?
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How is it that uh and and I ask this very rhetorically because I I do believe that there's not only an answer but a conversation to be had with it.
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But it's it's the same premise as bars.
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I mean, like there are establishments that that make make us a good or a service available that some people find harmful.
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And so the onus becomes rather than saying we need to prohibit it from existing, let's make sure that people are trained to recognize the warning signs.
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In most bartenders know how to cut someone off.
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They know the warning signs to look for, they know when to say, look, you've had enough.
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And we don't have those same cues here in this realm.
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That's not to say that there's no way that we can train somebody up to be able to say, like, hey, and and this is, I mean, this is speaking actually very directly to my story because the last day that I gambled, the person working behind the counter when I went to cash in my ticket was like, Oh, good, maybe now you can go home and get some sleep.
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And I was like, huh.
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Yeah, maybe, wouldn't that be great?
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And then and then the money was gone.
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And then I left.
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And so, like, we know that that there's a willingness for people to be able to offer that, but we're but a lot of folks aren't trained on what to look for, or they don't know how to have that conversation.
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Whereas when it comes to alcohol, because there are those visual cues, it's a lot easier to start having, even though it's uncomfortable, that conversation.
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I mean, it's so true.
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And how have I I don't think I've ever heard that before?
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Where and you know, someone who worked in the restaurant industry for 20 years, like I, yeah, like I would I've I've shut off millions of people or or slowed down not millions, but a lot of people.
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But and and you know, you say that there's no visual cues, but you know, if that person has been sitting there for eight hours and they haven't spoken to a soul and they're down a few thousand, yeah.
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I mean, it's so interesting.
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It's it's it's uh there's definitely that's a huge area of opportunity, especially for these these keynobars and these these these places that have these VLTs.
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Yeah, no, for sure.
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That's always the big question, though.
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Let me just jump in.
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That's always the big question that I get asked at conferences and things like that that are RG specific or um, I say RG, but responsible gambling, um specific.
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And and you know, if there's operators or people there, they're always like they're always looking for how they can interact or how they can intervene.
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I don't know Brian, I know you probably asked.
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Do you see how I stumbled to say Brian?
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Because I always call you Ward.
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So I was like, I need to address his first name, not his last name.
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Um but I'm sure you've been asked a bunch of times.
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Adam, I'm not sure how many times you've probably been asked, but like at these different conferences, right?
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That we've all probably been asked, like, how do we interact with somebody like me?
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Right?
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Like, and I I never know the best answer to say, because it it's very much to your point, Brian, about we have to be ready to receive it or we have to be ready to understand it.
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You know, because my very last interaction, the guy was like, No, you're gonna go home with this, right?
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.599
And I was completely incredulous.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:57.599
Like, of course.
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:05.839
And because it was it was that m that money would have helped me so much out of the hole that I dug myself in.
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.160
But I was completely incredulous of like, why would you even ask me that?
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.359
And then eight hours later I walk out with no money.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.359
And you know what I mean?
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.440
But what would that interaction have looked like?
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:19.279
Is there a different way he could have come at me?
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.839
Is there a different way that person could have come at you or you?
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:22.880
You know what I mean?
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:28.400
Like when we think about those last moments, and that has always been the toughest question to answer for me.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:41.279
And I think one of the things that we that we sometimes conflate is how do we change this person's life versus how do we have an uncomfortable conversation to to detach somebody now?
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:54.720
Because the thing is, shutting someone off at the bar, cutting someone off isn't necessarily going to make them pursue going to a 12-step meeting or or what you're doing is you're protecting them in a moment and you're protecting yourself, your your own liabilities.
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:09.440
And so it's not necessarily going to push somebody in the direction of, say, recovery, but it may get them to detach enough and put enough of those together, somebody may start to to introduce concern or interest in their own change behaviors.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.000
Um, of like, wow, I'm getting cut off every day.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.440
What's up with that?
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:18.160
Maybe there is something going on that I'm that I'm that I haven't considered yet.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.400
Brian, you're you're on fire right now.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.559
You you got my brain going crazy.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:35.599
Because so when when when Christina asked that question, what I wrote down was I wrote nine out of ten people that I would shut off at the bar, it would end in some type of conflict or them being angry or that.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:40.480
But I'm I was always trained and I always trained my staff that it doesn't matter.
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:41.519
We're liable.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:48.960
If that person leaves and gets in a car accident and and they get a DUI or they, God forbid, worse, it's on us.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.319
So, like, who cares?
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.880
If we lose that customer, oh well, right.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:58.160
But when it's the casino, to your point, it wouldn't matter anyways if you cut someone off.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:05.359
But part of the reason why Why I also worked in the casino industry, that we never had those conversations.
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:11.039
I mean, they never said it out loud, but it's most likely because their money's good here.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.599
Like it's it's it's we we want we want it.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:17.759
And um, and and you you know, let the person make their own decision, right?
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.000
It's their money, they can do what they want with it.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:27.440
But it's it's if you really think about it, them leaving, what happens if that person leaves and they harm themselves?
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:32.160
Or, you know, they're their losing gambling leads them to make reckless decisions.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.240
It's the same thing, kinda.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:44.640
So, but yeah, like we're so concerned with having that uncomfortable conversation, but we have no problem doing it multiple times a night in every bar in the country.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:52.960
And it and it may be worth talking about things like ill-gotten gains, you know, when people are facing criminal charges and things like that.
00:22:53.200 --> 00:23:06.559
Why are we not talking about the fact that the amount of money taken and then being fed into, say, establishments or or entities, they're they're not required to put that money back.
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.319
And and, you know, I am not a policymaker.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:16.640
I am not the one that's going to make rules and regulations around this, but we can advocate for it.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:25.680
And we can certainly talk about the very real consequences that people experience and get really loud and really vocal about that.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:44.000
I, given some of the work that I do and and some of the volunteer positions that I hold, uh, and then just my my true belief that like I really don't hold a moral stance on legalized gambling, but you're you better be damn sure that I do believe that they have a responsibility.
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:54.559
And there are people in the industry who are good people who are trying their best, who are having to tow a line that I would not want to tow.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:08.240
But that doesn't change that we gotta be having these conversations and we gotta be willing to we gotta be willing to come to the table saying that there are concerns, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:16.079
We do not have to say that gambling has to be illegalized or prohibited, and we don't have to say that it needs to be unfettered and predatory.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:21.119
We can say there is a responsibility to walk, and right now we're not there.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.000
So let's keep coming to the table, let's keep talking about how to get more entities there.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.279
Yeah.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:31.759
So off my soapbox, and happy to stay on that.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:32.880
You're on fire today.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:34.160
I think that's great.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:40.000
But let's let's go ahead and like I mean, all the work that you do is amazing in this space.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:46.160
Like, I've heard you share a lot of um present different presentations and and different thought processes.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:55.599
But what I really have enjoyed getting to know as well is the smart recovery format, which you're a huge proponent of.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:01.519
And I was wondering if you want to share a little bit about what smart recovery looks like.
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:12.799
And as somebody who's been doing it for a long time, and and how did you find smart recovery versus um you know, going a traditional GA route or some other traditional routes?
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.839
So I did.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:15.920
I I did go traditional GA.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:21.119
Like that was my my first meeting, was a was a GA meeting here in Portland.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:26.799
And I did that for probably a year and a half before smart ever really entered the picture for me.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:36.720
Um again, I mean, we are gonna name drop Kitty so many times, but it was Kitty that introduced me because she was a facilitator.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:44.720
And when she became my certified gambling recovery mentor, it was a way for her to further develop my skills.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.799
It was a way for her to bring me and introduce me into a new community.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.839
And I mean, we we know all of the platitudes.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.759
We know that community is the enemy of addiction and things like that.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.759
So it was just another access point, a distinct access point.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:05.039
I've I've gotten to where I don't I don't talk about it in terms of like it's an alternative to 12-step.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.319
It's a distinct model.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:15.279
It it's not meant to be a replacement, it's not meant to be an add-on, it's its own thing that can fill a lot of holes for a lot of different folks.
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:20.799
And the same thing goes with Recovery Dharma, with Celebrate Recovery, with Rock to Recovery.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.880
I mean, there's they all are kind of meant to fill their own purposes.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:35.519
And so treating them as though they're supposed to be like substitutes for each other to me kind of misses the point that we are trying to create a recovery net.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:39.599
And the wider net we can cast, the more people we can catch.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:51.279
And so I have no problem with 12-step um, as far as the fact that like it helps a lot of people, uh, it it shows up in a way that is very community driven.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:27:03.359
And the smart kind of looks at it and says, like, we're gonna focus more on like skills and tools, and we're gonna develop them in a community capacity without necessarily saying that we are your community.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:12.319
And so, to kind of touch on on smart recovery, what I would rather do is I would rather you two tell me what you remember about it, and then I'll plug some holes.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.480
So, um, so I'm gonna throw this back at you and say, what do you remember about our conversations about SMART?
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:19.759
Oh no.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:26.400
Um, I'm just gonna embarrass myself because I I don't I know just enough about it to be dangerous.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:31.279
Um, because I don't, I haven't really, it's not part of my particular recovery program.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:37.759
But what I do really enjoy about it is one, it's not based on a higher power, right?
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:47.920
It's not secular, it's not, it's it can be whatever you need it, but that I think that that was a core difference is kind of it's it's it's not based on a higher power.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.519
And two, it's not about day counting.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:58.640
Um you know, those are kind of some things that I that stand out between differences with other 12-step fellowships, right?
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:09.440
Is that oftentimes it's it's um around day counting, uh, you know, really focusing on on getting those days away from the vet and also really leaning into a higher power.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:12.079
And so that was kind of always really interesting to me.
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:15.359
And I know you're probably gonna be like, well, let's let's really break that down.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:31.759
But really too, sometimes the people are looking for more of a and I know scientific isn't the word, but more of a kind of a based in science formula to understanding their relationship with gambling.
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:48.319
And that's how I've always seen smart as a way to kind of connect with that kind of that particular skill set, or you know, that really want to identify patterns and behaviors and really kind of want to be able to do like your cost and cost analysis um things.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:29:00.960
I remember doing a few of those worksheets, and I really loved how sometimes it could take overly complicated thought processes sometimes and really help you just kind of let's let's break them out here.
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:01.279
Yeah.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:07.039
And you do you do the different worksheets and you kind of really work through the pros and cons of things.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:15.759
So I mean, just some of those skill sets that smart really likes to focus on, those are you know really appealing when it comes to smart.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:24.640
At least I when I when I'm working with a peer um or somebody, I kind of know where their skill sets are, right?
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:29.839
And some need like to me, GA is a more step-by-step process, right?
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:35.759
Gives you a lot of information up front, says, hey, if you do it this way, you know, this is gonna be really helpful.
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:42.400
Where, you know, sometimes you get people that just wanna be more analytical and look look inward.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:30:00.000
So that that that's my um Yeah, everything she just said, plus um, like I just remember you talking about like like yeah, it's more science and it's more like actual like practical exercises, right?
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:14.400
And like and and and almost like uh like self-empowerment, like not higher power, not not spirituality, which my follow-up question is so and and see this is embarrassing, but it's also good.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:21.279
And I I you bring up a good point, Christina, because like I must say the phrase smart recovery at least once a day, if not like four to five times a day.
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.480
And I don't know what the hell it is.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:23.119
I really don't.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:34.960
Like, so so are you doing actual like activities and like exercises during a smart recovery meeting, or is that all to be done like outside the meeting?
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:42.000
So uh facilitators are gonna kind of figure out what the meeting needs, both for the day, but also just kind of as a structure.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:50.559
And so um, I really liked what I was introduced to, which was like a brief check-in session and then a tool exploration.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:59.920
And so as a group, we come together and the facilitator introduces a tool, a concept, and and what smart kind of defines it as.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:04.480
And then as a group, we work through the process of it together.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.559
And so what give us an example of that.
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:07.759
Like, what would be a tool?
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.839
So, so the one that I really, really like is uh an ABC.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.480
I probably I still use it half a dozen times a day.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:21.759
Uh, it is my go-to because once you get really good at them, they're not they're not these like hour-long discussions.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.799
You can you can pop off an ABC in about 20 seconds when you know how to do it.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:36.240
And so the the 40-minute discussion that you have is getting people familiar with the concept so that they can start to break it down for themselves and streamline it.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.680
So, much like what we're doing here, I just introduced the tool.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:40.960
So, here's a question for y'all.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:42.880
You ever been cut off in traffic?
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:45.680
Yes, yes, all the time.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:46.480
Right.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.799
Yeah, that's really uncomfortable.
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:52.079
Uh what sort of what sort of feelings come up for you?
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:53.279
Road rage.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:54.319
Instead of it.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:56.319
First feeling is anger for sure.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:56.799
Great.
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:57.599
What else?
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:06.400
Then it is restraint because all the TikToks of road rage go into my head and I don't want to get shot.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:07.119
Great.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:07.680
Okay.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.480
Um wonderful.
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:16.799
For a lot of folks, when they get cut off in traffic, one of the first emotional responses is fear.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:23.279
You are you are driving thousands of pounds of steel on the road, interacting with other thousands of pounds of steel.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.079
And to be cut off puts you in this moment of fight, flight, freeze.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:29.599
Why do you think people yell so often?
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.519
So fear, anger.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.839
What are some of the thoughts that come up?
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.720
What when when you start thinking about it?
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:39.119
Where does your mind go?
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:41.839
So you're right.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.960
It it it goes for me, it goes fear, anger, and then restraint.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:45.359
Yeah.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:51.759
In that initial, I I guess my first thought is like like, thank God I'm okay.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:52.160
Yeah.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.240
I was just gonna-I'm okay.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:55.279
Okay, yeah.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:58.480
You all have you all have practiced your gratitude.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.359
My first thought is you son of a bitch.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.480
Oh, yeah, no.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:03.680
How dare you?
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:05.039
That's my second thought.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:05.920
Once I'm okay.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.720
Once I realize I'm okay, then I wanna, yeah.
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:09.519
Yeah.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.880
So, so uh for me it becomes like this.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.960
You were like, Boy, you guys have really practiced your gratitude.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.839
I guess, I guess that's true because we have years of recovery.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.039
So maybe that's it.
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.559
So it you'd probably have to ask me, you know, seven years ago.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:28.240
I love this by the way.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:29.200
I I love this right now.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:30.000
Can we keep doing this?
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:31.440
I really want to keep going.
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:39.039
So, you know, the the uncomfortable thoughts that come up, the ones that you you kind of know, like, ugh, that that hurts to think, right?
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:42.799
What are some of those thoughts that come up when you get cut off in traffic?
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:43.599
Yeah.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.960
I have a confession.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.200
I swear I say this every single time.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:48.079
Yeah.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:50.559
Christina's face.
00:33:51.119 --> 00:34:00.079
Whenever, whenever I get cut off, or whenever, let's say I'm driving 70, if someone flies past me 100 miles an hour, weaving in and out of traffic, super dangerous.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:05.279
I swear, Brian, every single time I say, God, I hope they crash.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:06.400
I really say that.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:07.279
I really say that.
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:07.920
I swear to God.
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.960
And and here's the thing thoughts are thoughts, right?
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:11.280
Right.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:13.679
They they have no impact on your life.
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:22.079
They they are fleeting, they are oftentimes dark impulses that are trying to come up, and usually in a response to those uncomfortable emotions.
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:23.360
So no bad thoughts, right?
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.599
Yeah, we are not here to talk about morals, we are here to talk about discomfort.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:32.800
And right now, that thought coming up of like, oh, I really hope he gets his, right?
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:34.079
And uh, no, no.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.199
I literally say the exact words.
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:36.960
I say, God, let him crash.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:37.679
That's what I say.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.880
Okay, great.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.239
Thank you for that.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:44.239
Thank and and and for being for being willing to talk about that.
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:55.440
So then now that now that we've been able to identify that that's probably stemming from the anger that you were feeling or the fear, now we're having this connective thought to it.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:03.280
Now we're gonna work on that thought and say, is there anything that we can do to kind of dispute it?
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:08.400
So so how do we dispute the thought you just had?
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.960
How do we dispute it?
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:11.599
Yeah.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.920
Like how do we defend like how do we defend that person's actions?
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:23.679
How do we how do we recognize that the thought that we just had isn't really helpful in this moment for us?
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:32.480
Oh yeah, because um I think for me, I would just be like, I don't really mean that.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:42.880
Like I don't really mean like when I have those thoughts for for me, like it maybe not in this particular situation, but in other situations where I'm thinking, man, I hope they get what's coming to them.
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.079
You know what I mean?
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:48.960
Or but oftentimes instant guilt for feeling that way will pop up for me.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:54.639
And I will like anytime I have a bad thought about anybody, like it's always followed by instant guilt.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:08.320
Like I don't mean that um, you know, yeah, and that's exactly so it goes through this little process of that for some reason if it's going inwards, if I'm saying something harmful about myself, I can't disrupt that in the same way.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:16.079
Yeah, see, I have that I have that thought process when it's like someone that I know in my life that I might get really angry at.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:32.159
But when I am on the road and someone is driving like an idiot, I truly I I guess I well, I definitely don't hope that they die, but I definitely hope that they crash to kind of like teach them a lesson.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:39.599
And I so, but to dispute that, I mean, I guess it's the thing that just popped in my head was like karma.
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:45.119
Eventually they'll get pulled over, eventually they'll get a ticket, and some ways they can learn the lesson.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.039
Yeah, like I can't control it.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:51.199
They're already gone, they're already out of my, I'll never see that person again.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:52.079
Wonderful.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:53.039
Yeah, awesome.
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.079
Now now we're getting their interns rates go up.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:56.480
Right.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:58.719
Yeah, maybe, maybe that'll teach them the lesson.
00:36:58.800 --> 00:36:59.840
Maybe we don't have to.
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:06.639
So, so and and so sometimes the thoughts that come up for folks are like that person's a dick or an asshole, or you know, whatever it is.
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.599
Sorry, I don't know what your language uh barriers are around this.
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:10.800
We're okay.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:17.599
Um, but so so being able to dispute it would be something like, I don't even know that person, right?
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.559
They may be on the hospital on their way to the hospital with a kid with with an injury.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:23.119
That's right.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.079
And so they may not be in the best head space.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:27.599
Does that mean that they're being safe?
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:28.079
No.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:34.719
But it does dispute that belief, that absolute belief that I had that this person is terrible.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:47.199
And so then we get to a spot where we might be able to implement a little bit of change, where we can say, the next time that I find myself in this situation, because let's be very real, we live in the United States, we're probably going to get cut off in traffic again.
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:59.599
But is there something that I can do to either try to minimize it, to make sure that it doesn't happen as often, or if it does happen, that I can respond to it in a more healthy way?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.119
And so we might get to what was my position like in the road?
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:07.360
Was I hovering in somebody's blind spot and they cut me off because they didn't see me?
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.079
And if so, then maybe my own spatial awareness.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:16.000
Maybe if I would have left five minutes earlier to get to work, I wouldn't feel like crowding the person in front of me.
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:22.239
I could be a little bit more leisurely and offer more space for people to get whatever it is, we can start to implement change.
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:28.800
But we really can't do that until we've been able to look at the thoughts and feelings and say, well, that wasn't helpful.
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:30.719
And here's why it wasn't helpful.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.559
So here's what I'm gonna do instead.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:33.760
So congratulations.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:37.840
In about seven minutes, uh, you just learned the ABC.
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:39.599
And now you can take that with you.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:53.199
You can practice it in your own time, learn how to internalize it, and now you have a skill not only for the discomfort of like experiencing an urge to gamble, but for the next time you get caught up in the traffic or the next time you stub your toe on a nightstand.
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.000
This is a tool that becomes so transferable.
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.840
So now that that was awesome.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.480
That was awesome, and thank you for taking us through that.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:22.320
I have to ask I no, that's I have to ask this follow-up because I'm sure I'm not the first person who's a GA guy who's gone through that exercise who has thought this, but there's a lot of serenity prayer, I feel like, in that as far as just you know, what you can control, what you can't control.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.000
Do you do you often get people like making that comparison?
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:37.599
It's one of the main reasons that like I I did both programs for like you know, it took about a year and a half after GA to get in smart, and then I did both for like three years.
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:38.239
Yeah.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.920
I mean, up in up until the pandemic kind of shut everything down.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:46.880
I was going to about three meetings a week, and they were they were coupling.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:53.679
They that the ABC became how I practiced the serenity prayer.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:56.719
It was this is something I can control.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.559
And my wisdom is teaching me that I can't control getting cut off in traffic.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:03.199
What I can control is my response to it.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:16.960
And what I can control is using this tool to better respond to that discomfort so that I'm not always stressed out on the road, which by the way, might be contributing to what's causing me to go gamble because of the amount of anxiety I'm under all the time.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:17.280
Yeah.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:27.199
And so, so being able to treat both of them as these kind of like uh intertwining augmentations of each other was my journey.
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.559
That's how I did it.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.440
So yeah.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:31.199
Yeah, you're right, you're not the first one.
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:32.400
Because I did it too.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:32.800
Yeah.
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:38.480
And the one thing about smart too that I'm realizing it's really important that you have a good facilitator, right?
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.960
Because you're essentially like kind of teaching a class, it sounds like a little bit, right?
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:44.320
It it is meant.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:49.519
So this one, because I was trying to kind of guide you through it and we didn't have as much time.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.159
So it was a little bit more forced than typical.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.360
I try to have much more robust conversations.
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:07.599
The the idea is to be a facilitated discussion about the tool with a facilitator who knows it and can guide, but it's not like I've the worst thing that I hear is when people say this was a great class.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:12.880
I do not like that because that immediately puts me in an authoritative role that I don't deserve.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:20.719
And it it gets rid of the of the equity and the equality that people are supposed to be bringing into the meetings.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:28.079
All of a sudden, they just want to learn from me instead of investing wholly into the exercise themselves.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.679
They start expecting answers rather than discussions.
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.400
I like that perspective.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.199
I do, I do, but I think it's a little humble.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:42.159
Like, is it a bad thing if you're an awesome facilitator and people feel like that you taught them something?
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.159
Or is that just not what smart is?
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.000
It I mean, uh sure.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:58.079
I mean, if if people are taking from my example, but the other, I think the better, and what I would tell people is you're gonna hear this mouth, you're gonna see this beard flop and you're gonna hear this mouth moving a lot.
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.480
But the real gold nuggets come from the discussion that happens amongst the participants.
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:02.719
Okay.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:11.920
If this was a more full-fledged meeting, you'd be learning as much from Christina and her insights into this tool as you would be from me who knows how to break the tool down.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:24.880
So, in in in a much more full-fledged meeting, the hope, the ambition, the reason that the facilitators are told that this is meant to be a web of discussion.
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.480
It's not everybody talking to me or me talking to everybody.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:33.760
It's having conversations that I'm kind of observing and keeping on track.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:41.119
That's what the facilitator's main role is is to get from the beginning of the meeting to the end with some sense of cohesion.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:45.280
So And that's how I like to look at like all recovery meetings, right?
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:49.840
Like when you go into a meeting, you're it really is about the community in that meeting.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:00.480
And you know, it's it's always the facilitator's job, which I facilitate meetings, is to start the meeting, to navigate the meeting, to keep moving the meeting forward.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:11.599
And but to me, it's like no matter what the topic is, like I I would have people sometimes see the topic and be like, ah, I'm pretty familiar with that topic, I'm not gonna go to the meeting.
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.760
But I always encourage, like, it doesn't matter what the topic is.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.360
You go into a meeting, even if it's a topic you're familiar with, right?
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:24.880
Even if you've got three years of recovery and this topic might be recovery 101, right?
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:39.599
And you go into this meeting and you might think you have it all figured out, or you know, like you think this particular thing means this, but then you go into the meeting and you hear this perspective from somebody else, and you're like, mind blown.
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:47.599
Like I didn't think like that, or I didn't kind of relate that because that wasn't my experience, but I can relate it in a way when you share yours.
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:53.119
And so I think that that's just a key role, just like the serenity prayer.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:59.519
Like one of my core foundations of recovery is really understanding what's in my control and what isn't.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.440
What belongs to me and what doesn't.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:01.679
Yeah.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:08.000
And those are the things that I really like use every day in my recovery.
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:17.679
And so whether it's through Smart or GA or any other recovery space, it really does boil down to those those core things.
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.199
And then learning from other people how to put them in my life.
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:21.920
You know what I mean?
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:34.800
A lot of the stuff that I've learned, a lot of the tools and skills that I've learned have been through just other meeting conversations, not necessarily how the facilitator landed it, but maybe how I heard it and by through somebody else.
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:38.400
And so um I really appreciate you breaking it down in that manner.
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:39.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.239
Um we're running out of time, but two two two more questions.
00:44:46.719 --> 00:45:00.480
So you know, you mentioned earlier about the importance of having a seat at the table as people who work in the space, you know, avoiding the whole all or nothing where you right.
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:08.320
So my question to you is where does Brian Ward stand right now?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:20.000
Because if you talk to me, I feel like I'm getting swayed back and forth at opposite ends of the spectrum every quarter when it comes to the industry.
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:39.599
And as of right now, especially after this past weekend, talking to some people who work for the big people in RG, I'm really leaning towards the fact that like I'm just whatever, like whatever I was a year ago as far as like anti-industry, like I'm almost the opposite of that now.
00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:53.280
Yeah, I guess this is a long-winded question of like, where do you stand right now as far as the industry and not only like how should we be looking at it as people who work in this space, but someone who's early on in recovery?
00:45:54.159 --> 00:46:03.920
And you know, they can't help but use the current gambling landscape as an excuse or a reason of why they can't stop gambling.
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:04.239
Yeah.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:08.000
Where do you stand on this currently in June of 2026?
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.559
Uh, I I stand pretty similar to where I stood early on.
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.039
Of course, I had anger to start off with, right?
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:20.079
Like, of course, there was there was the part of me that that wished that it didn't exist.
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:30.079
Um, but pretty early on, what I started kind of recognizing is first that there are good people doing really hard jobs in spaces that we don't even hear everything that's happening, right?
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:36.239
Like we we don't know what happens behind the closed doors of RG meetings and all of that.
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:55.840
And not because they're trying to keep it secret, but because like there are some things that don't pan out, or there are, and and uh I could go off on a whole tangent about that, but where I stand is there is a responsibility for all parties involved.
00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:04.880
We do not sacrifice or we do not get a pass of our own decisions simply because there was something made available.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:11.039
We still had decisions in those moments, and so we are responsible for those.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:17.599
Just like the industry has made decisions, and those decisions may be causing harm.
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:35.920
There may be room to have discussions around what the alternative would have been and whether or not harm was mitigated through different decisions, but there are decisions that are being made too, and those decisions are are-I mean, we hold people accountable to this to the decisions that they make.
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:39.599
We hold entities accountable to the decisions that they make.
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:47.599
And the way that we can hold them accountable is to be able to have discussions with them.
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:57.760
And right now, and I Adam, I think you may have heard me say this before in other settings, which is if we if we want to be invited to the table, we have to be willing to talk.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:06.320
We have to be willing to hear the other side, we have to be able to understand that they they are part of organizations that have their own missions.
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.239
Some of them are bound by things that we don't understand.
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:21.519
I will say that in Oregon, like the main mission of the Oregon lottery that was voted on, their mandate is to generate revenue for the state of Oregon.
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.719
So they do.
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:32.400
Because Oregon voters, when the Oregon Lottery was enacted, didn't have public health as a concern at that point.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:48.639
I will say, in conversations that I've had with some of their team that are more geared towards the RG side of things, that they actually do commit quite a bit of resources towards uh uh research and prevention and messaging and all of that.
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:50.000
Is it enough?
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.320
Well, harm is still happening.
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.119
So it'd be great if we could get it to where like harm was reduced to zero.
00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:58.719
I don't see that happening.
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:10.159
What I do see happening is a continued discussion that can be had that, frankly, if all gambling was illegalized, there would be no incentive for organizations to talk to us.
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:19.760
There'd be no incentive for them to take into account and provide resources for the services that are made available for when the harm does happen.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:25.360
And so I tend to lean pretty heavily into it's it's why I became part of the board for NCPG.
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:28.800
I mean, I became a I became a board member because I was elected to it.
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:34.719
But the reason that I ran was because I believed in that messaging of bringing folks to the table.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:37.599
And I believed that NCPG was the table.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:42.960
That it was, it was the place that the people congregated to be able to have those difficult discussions.
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:46.559
And so I am in the same room with people who work for the industry.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:51.280
I'm in the same room as people who work for the local, uh, the state affiliate councils.
00:49:51.760 --> 00:50:02.239
And we can have really robust, in-depth conversation about what it means to mitigate gambling harm and how everybody's bringing pieces to the table.
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:04.800
So that was a very long-winded answer as well.
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.239
Um, but but that's that's where I stand on it.
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.119
So no, I love it, and that makes a lot of sense.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:12.800
Has anyone ever told you that?
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:14.639
Have you ever seen Parks and Wreck?
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:15.920
Yes.
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.239
Like you're Ron Swanson.
00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:18.800
You really are.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:21.039
Like, you just I love your vocabulary.
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:22.559
You're like a thesaurus.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:23.199
I just love it.
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:23.679
I love it.
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:24.559
That's a compliment.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:27.039
Ron Swanson's one of the greatest characters of all time.
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:27.679
Yeah, he is.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:29.920
And Nick Offerman's one of my favorite actors, too.
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:30.800
Yeah, so yeah.
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.559
So we're I'm in a good place with this.
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:34.239
All right.
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:40.880
So as we're winding this down, um, there's a question that we ask everybody that's that's on this podcast.
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:49.599
Um, and especially, you know, with your lived experience and your background and and all the advocacy and peer and you know, all the conversations.
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.559
What gives you hope for this space?
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:54.639
The passion.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:58.960
The the passion that I see all the time, every every conference that I go to.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:05.840
There are folks like yourselves, like me, who who are very, very public advocates uh for that lived experience.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:10.159
There are also people who are giving folks like us platforms to speak.
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:13.199
There are, there are, and and creating opportunities for it.
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:20.639
And and so my hope rests in the passion that stands behind the lived experience.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:24.159
That that sometimes pushes us a little beyond our comfort zones.
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:29.840
I mean, I'll I'll be very real that a lot of us think we're ready for public speaking until it's time to do so.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:38.079
A lot of us think that we're ready for podcasts uh or video uh video film until things come up and we're not exactly ready for it.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:52:04.800
But the fact that we're continually given platforms is something that not only gives me a lot of hope, but a sense of duty, a duty of care to be a strong advocate and be able to, yes, come with a vocabulary, but but maybe more importantly, come with a message of of unifying, come with a message that does bring people back to that table to say, yeah, we all have a very similar goal in mind.
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:15.920
Maybe there are different motivations, but that doesn't distract or detract from the goal that we all share, which is to try to minimize harm and the people who experience it.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:18.480
So um yeah.
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:28.400
I mean, you're just uh it's like you make a lot of the same points I make, but you're just so much more nice about it and and and articulate.
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:32.159
I gotta, I need some, I need some talking lessons from you, Brian Ward.
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:33.599
I mean, god damn it.
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:37.840
I am I am happy to to talk about messaging.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.599
I I also think that you speak your truth and and it's very honest.
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:49.440
And I think that there's some people who find me a little a little polished and and overproduced, I guess would be like a way to put it.
00:52:49.599 --> 00:53:11.360
Um, where sometimes I'm too cautious, sometimes I I come at it things with such diplomacy that it comes across as kind of this this uh I don't take a hard stance on things, which I try not to, but yeah, um, but I do think that there's room for all sorts of voices, including, yeah, maybe more, and I'm not saying this of you, but voices that are more brazen than mine.
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:22.480
Um, voices that are going to be a little bit louder and a little bit more in your face of like, you know, okay, yeah, what Brian said was cute, but here's the fact people are people are really struggling and we're not doing enough.
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:36.239
So yeah, I think like the perfect messaging is like 85% you, 15% me, maybe, as far as just throwing in a sprinkling in a little bit of that brazen, but just seasoning, just seasoning at them throughout those days.
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:37.199
Right, right.
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.760
Yeah.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:40.320
Oh well, this was awesome.
00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:42.320
Yeah, I appreciate your time.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.480
Uh honestly, I love what y'all are doing here.
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:54.639
And and uh all kudos to a Vive for again continually providing platforms for folks with lived experience to be able to come together and present the messaging.
00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:55.360
So yeah.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:55.760
Yeah.
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.280
Christina, you good?
00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:58.079
I'm good.
00:53:58.159 --> 00:53:58.880
This is great.
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:00.639
We appreciate you so much.
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:02.800
That was like the fastest 50 minutes ever.
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:04.400
Thank you so much, Brian Ward.
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:05.519
It's my pleasure.
00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:06.480
Thank you.