56. Why Personal Holiness Matters in Ministry with Tasha Calvert

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Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast.
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We are here to help you understand the unique cultural needs of Gen Z and Generation Alpha.
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I'm your host, Chuck Peters, and I'm so glad you're here today.
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This is the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast.
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I have the opportunity to fly quite a lot from my job, to travel to different cities where I get to speak at conferences and do trainings with church leaders.
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And every time I fly, I can't miss the the moment where the flight attendant stands up, right?
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And they say uh if if something were to happen and the oxygen masks will fall in front of you, they say, put on your own mask first before you help others.
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And guys, the the topic we're going to talk about today is one of personal holiness.
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The idea that we need to have our walk with the Lord right first before we can really give others what we we can't give what we don't have, right?
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We can't give out of an empty bucket.
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We need to put on our own mask first, that mask of intimate walk with the Lord that's beyond a checklist of things that we do, but that really flows from who we are.
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We we need to be able to minister out of the overflow of what's happening in our hearts.
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Uh, guys, we're called to wholly transform living.
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And we need to have this goal of holiness as one that we pursue in our own lives and one that we desire for our ministry to kids and students to generate personal holiness and a walk with God.
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That's intimate.
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Today we're going to talk with uh my friend Tasha Calvert.
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Tasha is at Prestonwood Church in Texas.
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She's a wonderful friend who has spent a lot of time and energy exploring this idea of personal holiness.
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She's shared it with uh with ladies that she leads in her ministry at Preston Wood, but she's also captured this in a book.
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Uh, and there's so much value in the wisdom in this book that I wanted to have a conversation with her so we could hear directly from her what personal holiness is, what it's all about, and why it's so important to us as leaders and to the ministries that we lead as a goal.
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Here's my conversation with Tasha Calvert.
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Well, listeners, I'm excited today to talk with a new friend, Tasha Calvert, of that we have met and we actually had lunch together several months ago and got to meet, but we we I just made the connection that we'd already done that, Tasha.
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So it's great to see you again.
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And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today about this idea of personal holiness and just of holiness as a goal, as a pursuit for us as leaders, but also as a goal for what we do within our ministries.
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So I speak with a lot of leaders in kids' ministry and student ministry, next gen ministry leaders.
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One of the things that we often talk about is um is vision, having, you know, what is our purpose?
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What's our goal?
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What is it we're trying to accomplish?
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And in my experience, most of us within the church and really good leaders and really good churches, for most of us, the goal of godliness, the goal of holiness is not at the top of most people's lists.
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No.
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So tell me first a little bit, Tasha, about what is it that compelled you to be so interested in this concept of holiness and that and personal holiness?
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What is it that, how did the Lord prompt you to study about this, to lean into this topic and to write about it?
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What was it that God prompted in you that led you to do this work?
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Oh, absolutely.
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Well, Chuck, it's not going to surprise you that obviously the Lord did something like He did it to whatever I talk about in this book, he did it with me first.
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But I will say, as somebody who is in the local church ministry and is a byproduct of basically, they didn't call it that when I was growing up, but next gen ministry.
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I mean, I've been in there from nursery all the way through to now, have just um always been a part of a local church.
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I can just tell you, um, my personal bent is more towards the pharisaical.
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I'm I'm like one of those who likes to know where the mark is and hit it and then look around and look at everybody else.
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And so I set out to write a book that was basically saying, hey guys, we're missing the point.
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Like everybody's chasing favor and blessing, and really the call is to holiness.
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And so I kind of pitched that slant.
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And then, you know, book taking writing a book takes a while.
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And over those 18 months that I was writing it, the Lord really softened that message and turned it inward and was like, hey, well, let's just talk about you for a minute.
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Where are you not pursuing holiness?
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And um, and I think what I realized is that as a leader, as somebody who has been tasked with trying to equip, you know, women in my case, but in in your listeners' case, like the next generation, trying to really get them ready for whatever God has for them and discipled, we tend to bite off things that are a little more manageable, quote unquote, in our minds.
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And really, as so many things in God's economy, I'm kind of giving you the elevator pitch here.
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Yes, great.
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That's not that's not really how it works.
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Like we have to go all in.
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And so I think really I was just as as the Lord began, you know, bringing the words out of my mouth and my fingers to get this message out.
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It was just scripture upon scripture reminding me that holiness is not something we produce.
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Like we don't get to lead that, we don't get to direct that.
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Um, it's his vision.
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And so really our responsibility is to get on board with something he's already declared over us.
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And um, you know, we can talk about it, but there's a lot of reasons I think why we don't really want to start with holiness because it's just so other.
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And, you know, like I can be, I can kind of feign and produce a little bit of grace on my own.
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I can, I can act justly, even in my flesh, for short periods of time.
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Like there's a lot of those things that I can muster up on my own.
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Holiness is one of those, like, there is no way we're doing that without God.
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And so I think there's an intimidation factor, uh, you know, in short.
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And so it was just really, uh I mean, at the end of the day, it was the Lord's message that He and allowed me to write.
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Well, and I think that's so that's so important to start with because even as we talk about what is it that we're looking to instill in our kids and in our students, it has to start with us first, right?
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We can't we can't give what we don't have.
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And so we can't expect to impress this notion of why should we be living lives that and we can get into definitions.
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I think we should do that too, define some terms, but we know that holiness means to be set apart, right?
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What why would we, how can we possibly lead our kids and students to live lives that are set apart, that are holy, that are, that are uh reserved for God's special purpose if we are not doing that and own that value within ourselves.
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So, listeners, you know this.
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We all know this, it has to start with us first, right?
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Because our ministries come out of the overflow of what's happening in our own lives.
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And my concern, Tasha, for us as leaders, and you've been a leader in the church for a long time in a large ministry.
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It for many of us as leaders, we I feel like we we often, because we're driven people who are goal-oriented, you miss mentioned that, like there's that little that line of the pharisaical where we might be like, just tell me the law, give me the rules, and let me let me hit the mark, right?
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Yeah, um, but there's I think that there's a pressure for us to succeed however we define success.
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And I think a lot of the time we define that in terms of the world, right?
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We live in a driven American culture where we know what it looks like to have a scoreboard and to win and to succeed and to grow and to advance.
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And we can be driven by some metrics that are really very different than the metric of holiness.
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Right.
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And so I think this for I'm hoping that this episode for listeners for you will be a call to what you already know is true.
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And that is that our ministries have to start with our own personal relationship with the Lord, and that that has to be real and deep and meaningful.
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If we're doing ministry in our own strength, we're doing it wrong.
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Yep.
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Yep, absolutely.
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And you know what?
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I think something that you said there is super important because you were talking about the metrics.
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And in some ways, like when I think of a child that is in any type of traditional school method, even if that's homeschooling, you know, there are there are metrics.
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We condition our kids and our students and all of us to learn in certain ways that we can evaluate.
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And so, you know, we have to be careful when we're entering into a conversation about something as honestly uh nebulous as whole as holiness is, that we don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Like we are going to need to keep, like there is a reason that we program things.
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There are a reason that we um do some, you know, a program like I wanna's or whatever.
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Yeah, you have to have structure.
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But I think we're maybe sometimes we lean on the structure.
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We are lax in the uh holy curiosity.
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And so we don't give space sometimes for our kids to ask a lot of questions.
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I was just even thinking how often I describe so much of my journey is basically having fill in the blank faith.
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That's what I call it.
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Like I had done Bible study after Bible study after Bible study, and you know, going back to felt boards in BBS.
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You know, like I remember this, answering the question, filling in the blank.
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And I had a lot of that knowledge, but I was trying to think, like when when when I was in children's ministry, was it ever let's just open our Bibles and let's go there and teach, like nothing really taught me how to do that on my own.
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In fact, there was almost like a mystique about the the person at the front of a room in a Sunday school class or an auditorium because they seemed to have some skill that even in all of my dedication to the local church, I had not gotten.
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And that was making the connections between scripture and my life and scripture in one place versus another.
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And I think that is one thing that as leaders and certainly in my ministry, I have really felt the responsibility to cultivate is getting people to ask questions, to engage with the scripture, not just check the box that, hey, okay, I finished this eight-week study.
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I answered the questions correctly in class today.
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I did the reading they told me to do.
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I mean, I think it's really drawing people into relationship alongside those metrics that we're helping them learn by.
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Right, right.
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And so we I Tasha, I've been talking a lot lately with folks who I get to speak with and and present to about the the, I use a bowling analogy.
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Some of my listeners have heard this before, right?
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There's gutters on two sides of the bowling alley.
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And so on the one side, and there's gutters that I think the church has fallen into over the year, church universal, uh, not any specific church, but apply this wherever it will, listeners.
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So one of those gutters is the gutter of intellectualism where the where the idea and we may, we may even unintentionally be communicating to kids and students and maybe even have this in ourselves that what it means to be a quote, good Christian is about knowledge.
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Can you answer the trivia questions?
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Do you know the Bible stories?
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Do you know the references?
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Have you memorized all the verses?
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Uh, and the other side is the gutter of behavioralism, right?
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And that's that's that's what it means to be a good Christian is what you do or don't do, the friends you hang with or don't hang with, the music you listen to or don't listen to.
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And it becomes legalistic in in that sense.
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Yeah.
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And both of those I say are misses.
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And we know that, right?
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Because the Pharisees had both of those.
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They had all the knowledge, they followed the law to the letter, to the to the T, right?
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And yet Jesus said of them that they honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
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He compared them to whitewashed tombs, right?
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To a cup that's filthy on the inside but clean on the outside.
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We don't want to train up kids and students to be those kind of Christians, right?
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Quote Christians, that are that are that way in appearance only or outwardly only.
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And the goal, the real goal that hits the pins is heart, is the heart.
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It's the transformation.
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And God talks so much uh all through scripture about how man looks at the outward appearance, but he looks at the heart.
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That we that uh that it's it's through what's happening in the you know, their hearts are far from me.
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Uh is God wants our hearts.
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Um, he searches to and fro all over the earth looking for those who are fully devoted to him, right?
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And so those that that that should be our goal is is that it is transformation at the heart level first, which really comes down to the goal of holiness for our for those that we lead.
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Yep, you're exactly right.
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And that's a hard, like, even just what you said, fully, fully committed to God, like full hearts fully surrendered.
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I can just tell you, even with the fact that most of your listeners are are leaders, that gives some people anxiety.
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Because at the end of the day, Chuck, when we stand on a Sunday morning in church and we raise our hands and sing, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.
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And we and we sing He's holy forever and we attribute holiness to him.
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There is something inside of us that knows I do not have that.
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I am not worthy of that adulation and praise.
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And so I think what it causes is just like, you know what, let's let's get all the stuff around it.
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But I don't know, that might be something too big to tackle.
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And I think the cool thing that I just was reminded over and over when writing this book is that actually starting with the one thing you have no hope of producing on your own is the best place to start because it only is gonna happen if God shows up.
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And so I kind of do this like four-part framework in the book.
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And I think it's really helpful.
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You know, at the end of the day, I'm I am a ministry leader, and so I wanted, I did not want to write some book that was just really conceptually brilliant.
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I wanted to write, first of all, I'm not brilliant, so that wouldn't have happened.
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I was really ever never in any any danger of that, but I wanted something practical.
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Like, well, how what can I what can I take from here to actually help me in ministry?
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And so I came up with, you know, you talked about defining terms, not necessarily defining holiness.
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Holiness really is a difficult thing to define.
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Because really, as Jackie Hill Perry so so beautifully said in her book, Holier Than Thou, to say that God is holy is to say that God is God.
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I mean, it just it really is defined by him.
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So I kind of came up with this framework that is holiness is a sacred otherness that originates from God.
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So there is just, you know, we're just gonna acknowledge off the bat, this is something we really can't understand.
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Those of you that work, you know, primarily with children, that's gonna be a hard one to explain to a child.
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So what you have to, you you just start with that, hey, God is God and and we're called to be God's children.
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But the reason why we can produce, we can it's display holiness is because it's it's given to us, extended to us through his spirit.
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And so, you know, it it begins with just the salvation of God's people and him giving us his spirit.
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And so these are things that are already in our programming.
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You know, we are we are trying to introduce people to God, we are trying to get them saved, get them to a personal relationship with God, where he then extends his holiness by way of his spirit in us.
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And then here's the kind of part where we enter in.
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It's manifest in our character.
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And um, that's kind of where I think for ministry leaders, we we get to spend the bulk of our energy is helping people grow in relationship with God so that when things happen in their life, and we know they will, um, then what comes out is God's character, not their flesh.
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And that's that's a lifelong journey.
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And that's not going to happen necessarily, you know, in one grade level by the end of the year that you can test for.
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That's that's something that is going to be implanted deep into them.
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And then the fourth, fourth part we can talk about, but I mean, it's what the church does so well.
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It's strengthened in Christian community.
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I mean, it's God's plan for his people to be in fellowship with one another.
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And we sharpen one another, right?
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When we walk with other people, we know all kinds of research and anecdotally that the what is it, the four or five people that you spend the most time with are the people that you will become like.
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Yes.
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And so choosing your friends is a really important thing, having the right influences.
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That's true for our kids, but it's also so true for us as leaders.
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Uh, so you you uh I know that you talk about uh the the idea that holiness is not something that you do.
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It's right, it's it's not like there's a there's a list, uh and it's like I I can achieve kindness, right?
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I can put that on a list, I can achieve uh generosity.
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Holiness is not like that.
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Uh it isn't an act, it's not a do, it's a be.
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And that whole idea, right, that we've heard before that, you know, you're not a human doing, you're a human being.
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The idea that holiness isn't something that we can that we can put on the checklist, but there are certain behaviors, there are habits of holiness that can help us develop this.
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What are some of those habits that you would recommend that might be a daily or a regular thing that we could actually put into practice practically for ourselves and that we might look to instill those sorts of patterns in the lives of our kids and students?
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Yeah.
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Um, I want to pick up on one thing you said, and then I promise I'm gonna answer the question.
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Oh, you're good.
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This is the problem with having another podcast host on.
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I mean, I'm like, I could talk all day.
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So you just cut me off.
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So, you know, that's this is what our listeners expect.
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This is in real time.
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We're not listening listeners, we've I have some notes and we've we, you know, we have all that, but we're seeing where the Lord leads, and this is an organic conversation, not like a scripted delivery.
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So we're gonna go where we go, Tasha.
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It's okay.
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Par for the course.
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Well, I was just thinking how you said, you know, how you were talking about like there's habits that we form.
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And I think that really is kind of one of the things that separates holiness from some of the other things that we're called to, like generosity, as you mentioned.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:32.160
At the end of the day, I mean, Chuck, if we close this computer and I blow it for the rest of the day, which, you know, highly possible that I will.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.079
I just mess the whole thing up.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.640
I I lose my temper, I don't get any, I mean, whatever happens.
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:44.720
I will pillow my head tonight and God will still declare me holy.
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:50.559
Not because of what I did or didn't do, but because of who I am.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:55.599
Now, he may not say that I was tenderhearted at the end of the day.
00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:03.039
He may not declare over me that I am generous, but he is going to declare over me that I am holy.
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:09.759
And so it's really so beautiful to know that holiness is not dependent on us.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:19.279
And so the the habits that we form to cultivate that really are the things that are cultivating those secondary things within us.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:22.000
And I always tease, I think this is a good way.
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:27.039
I'm kind of being tongue in cheek here, but uh I grew my family biologically.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.559
And so I gave birth to all four of my daughters, and I am not a trooper.
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:31.519
Like zero.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:36.079
I am not, I do not ever want to do things the harder way, the more natural way.
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:40.559
If there is a pill or a shortcut or you can just put me to sleep, that is.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:43.759
Yes, yes.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.359
That is all I am all about that.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.039
And so I would go into the hospital and I would say, okay, hi, I'm Tasha.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.519
I'm I'm so excited to be here.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.319
I will do everything you you tell me to do.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.599
I will cooperate if you tell me to breathe, if you tell me to push, if you tell me to, you know, whatever, I'm gonna do it.
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.680
But At the end of the day, it is your responsibility to get that baby out.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.440
And that's kind of like holiness.
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:13.680
Really, when we talk about the habits of holiness, it's going to God's word and saying, okay, you have told me to seek you first.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.640
You have told me to pray without ceasing.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.240
You have told me to love my neighbor.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:31.599
You have told me, and you know, all the things that God has given us for righteousness, it's us saying, okay, God, I'm going to cooperate to the best of my ability.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:44.160
But at the end of the day, if holiness comes out of me, if generosity is birthed in me, if kindness and compassion is exhibited in my life, that's because you've done that.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:23:02.799
And I think if we could somehow get that mindset instilled in us, incorporated into our programming and our language a little earlier, I think it would produce such good fruit in the long term.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.519
Because my testimony is that I have looked holy all of my life.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:18.240
If you did not have a really personal relationship or you really saw behind the curtain in my life, my life does not look a whole lot different at any point.
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:23.200
Because I could always check the boxes, I could always do the things.
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:30.799
But I'm telling you, 15, 16, maybe close to 20 years ago now, way too far in my adult life.
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.079
The Lord got my attention.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:40.559
And I'm so thankful He did because, in from my perspective, it's night and day.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:50.720
It's uh yeah, they say, right, if you are carrying a hot cup of coffee and somebody bumps into you, what spills out is hot coffee, right?
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.920
And so you you had said what this is what comes out of us.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:54.319
Yeah.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.960
Those hard things come and you and they will come.
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:04.400
And so whether that's stresses of our day-to-day, if it's personal issues and relationships, financial struggles, all the different things.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:11.119
Yeah, whatever comes out of us when we get hit by the world is what's there.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:11.680
Yeah.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.319
So it's like you said, it's the work of God, right?
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.200
This is holiness isn't something we can manufacture.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:22.559
Um, but you also manufacturing.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.000
There are some things we can do that maybe contribute to that.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.559
And I know you talk about holiness as a whole life thing, right?
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.720
This is not something we can compartmentalize.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.960
It's not like I'm holy when I'm at work because I'm in ministry, but when I'm in traffic, what does that look like?
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.759
When I'm walking the door at home and I'm having an issue with my spouse or with my kids, what does that look like?
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.119
So we can't compartmentalize holiness.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.160
And that's where I'm afraid that a little bit of our Western mindset.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:54.480
I mean, honestly, some of us who are guys, we can compartmentalize things, right?
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.119
Men are like waffles and women are like spaghetti.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.839
We've heard that before.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:58.160
Right.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:03.440
And so, but the whole idea of compartmentalizing holiness doesn't work.
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.480
That's not real, it has to impact our entire lives.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:07.200
Right.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:26.799
And I think that's honestly what you're saying, Chuck, is speaks to the fact that I think we've got to broaden the metric for how we are discipling people within um our churches because I think just like we found out decades ago in the educational system, people learn differently.
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:28.480
God has wired us differently.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:36.640
We we as um as Christians believe there are differences between men and women, and there, and God has uniquely formed us.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:47.440
And so we want to make sure we are broadening our discipleship programming enough that it engages and includes a variety of people.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:48.960
I think that's why it's so beautiful.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:53.039
We have like special friends ministries now, and we have recovery.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:07.039
Like we're we're starting to, I feel like, kind of conceptually understand that we've got to, we've got to put more hooks in the water for different people that maybe deviate from what would be considered, you know, normal or mainstream.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.960
And I think one of the, you know, there's two foundations that I talk about in the book.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:19.359
And I think these are important and they're open, they're broad enough that I think we can be creative in how we we really uh build upon these.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:25.440
But the two foundations I feel like that I see in scripture for holiness are God's word and God's people.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:38.160
And so, and that is that is one thing that I don't think, I mean, obviously God is God and He can do whatever He wants, but I mean, those are hard to accomplish in a in a believer's life without the church.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:54.319
I mean, because God's word, we we can have access to God's word, but hearing God's word poured into us by people who have um been praying and that God has called to be prophetic in our lives and to speak and to um to in impart truth upon us.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.400
That happens most often within the community of a local church.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:11.599
And then God's people, I mean, you you may have people in community that are Christians, but really the highest concentration of people that are kind of learning and going through life with you are at your church.
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.039
And so God's word and God's people are foundational.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:21.680
And then I think from there we build upon those holy habits that we were talking about.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.440
What do we see in scripture?
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.599
And scripture, you know, scripture speaks to all of it.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.880
It it really does.
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:55.680
It may not speak specifically to a thing that would be contextualized within the 21st century in the Western church in America, but it speaks to the concepts of everything that we face, whether that's our, you know, our finances, whether it's our health, whether it's our sexuality, whether it's our friendships, whether or not it's how we, I mean, believe it or not, the Bible has a lot to say about how we engage with others online.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:04.000
You want to talk about something that Next Gen Ministry is going to um face, you know, probably more prominently than a lot of our spaces.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:05.680
It's the online world.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:14.559
I mean, so much of our relationships are um are on social media or video games or whatever it is these days.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:32.640
And, you know, the same rules for relationship, just because our relationships are being, you know, lived out in different ways these days, God is still clear about how we are to fight for unity, how we are to speak with one another, how we're to show deference to others.
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:50.880
And so, um, so there's just so many opportunities that I think if we get our eyes in the right place and kind of start with that bigger umbrella of God's called us holy, and here's how, here's how He's going to best be able to move and produce that in us.
00:28:51.039 --> 00:29:00.319
I think it kind of changes the conversation to allow us to engage more people more of the time.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.200
Yeah.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:06.400
I can hear um, I can hear the thoughts of some of our listeners who are saying, okay, okay, great.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:07.440
What just what do I do?
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:08.240
Tell me what to do.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.200
How do I get there?
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.759
And I think that's where this gets to be hard, right?
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.000
Because it's not like there's this checklist.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:16.640
We're looking for something profound, Tasha, right?
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:22.960
It's like, okay, yeah, I have my quiet time, I do my devotions, I read my Bible, I'm studying for work.
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.839
Maybe I have some amount of a prayer life.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.559
I think for most of us, that's pretty weak.
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.720
If I'm honest about my own prayer life, I know that that's a weakness that I have.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:49.519
So we know some of these spiritual disciplines as ministry leaders, what what is it about those things that would change them from being uh a habit or just a uh something to check off our daily list that meets the minimum requirement, right, that we should have.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:30:01.359
What is it, the difference between just doing those things out of like a rote uh repetition versus uh having those things accomplish that heart change that leads to holiness in my life?
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:02.400
Right, right.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.839
I think modeling is probably the thing.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:14.640
Like if I look at how I have tried to incorporate these practices within my own ministry, and I know that my ministry might be a little different than the next gen, but people are people.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:27.200
And um, I think one of the things that has been most helpful in my ministry is actually opening the Bible, not like letting all of the materials that I produce, and I do the same thing y'all do.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:29.839
I I I've written 18 Bible studies.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.440
We have study guides that go along with those, like we do all the things.
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.279
I've got the reading plans on U version and all the things.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:45.599
But um, but primary is always let's get in a circle and let's open the Bible together.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:47.279
Let's read what we see.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:31:08.880
And I want to start modeling how someone could do the same thing I'm doing at the front of the room when they're sitting at home by themselves, when a kid has had a bad day after school, that they have seen in their classroom the teacher get their Bible out, open it up, read something, and say, What do I see in there?
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:12.240
Beginning that just teaching those inductive study methods.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.079
What do I see about God?
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:27.599
And you know, rather than preaching at someone all the time, and there's listen, there's a space for preaching, but within ministry context, hearing what are they, what are they getting out of this?
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:32.640
Because sometimes we say something and we think they've heard us clearly, they haven't.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:43.759
So giving people space to engage with the text, to ask questions about the text, to read it with some confidence.
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:44.880
I mean, I can't tell you.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:50.240
I have grown women that I'll say, Hey, does this place remind you of any other place?
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.880
Like, for instance, I'll give you a practical example.
00:31:53.039 --> 00:32:04.480
I was teaching a widow's class, older women, this past Sunday, and we were in 2 Kings, and it was about Elisha um following Elijah up to the whirlwind where he gets taken.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:11.680
And three times on the way, on that road to the whirlwind, um, Elijah says, Hey, you don't have to go, Elisha.
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.680
You don't have to go, you don't have to do this.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:21.440
And um, and three times Elisha says, No, as long as the Lord is living and you are here, I am, I'm going with you.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:27.759
And so I just asked the women, I was like, Does this remind you of anything else in scripture?
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.000
Like, is there anything that this brings to mind?
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.160
And, you know, one of the places with Jericho.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:34.559
So the women were like, Well, Jericho, we know Jericho.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.480
And I was like, okay, what do you know about Jericho?
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.079
You know, and they get some confidence.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:50.640
And then, you know, we have this discussion, and one woman raises her hand and says, Well, I mean, Peter said he was going to not deny Jesus on his way to the cross three times.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.160
Is that a connection?
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:58.079
And I'm like, Yes, it's a connection because it's showing that you know your scripture.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:32:59.920
So we talked a little bit about that.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:16.720
Just giving people confidence to say what they might be thinking, to ask a question, it it enlightens and awakens something in there because I really believe that's that's a picture of stirring the spirit.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:24.720
And I think we have we have traded in checking boxes for a movement of the spirit in our lives.
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:43.279
And it's, you know, the Lord is able to overcome that and deal with us personally, but I think we might would see greater fruit if we began earlier really helping people understand that they have God's spirit.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:45.839
Yes, and what a gift that is.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.839
And here, let's show you how to engage with that spirit.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.480
That makes me think of, and again, this is one of those random connections, right?
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:59.599
Where it may or may not be direct, but the Lord brought this to my mind as you were saying that.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.759
I think of how Jesus said we should pray, right?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:07.839
And and he says, Don't don't pray in just vain repetition.
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:15.280
So I feel like, again, for many of us, the way that we do our daily Bible time can feel like vain repetition.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:18.719
Uh, it's something that we do as a practice, as a habit.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:23.519
And we don't, we, we, we kind of go through it to check it off our list, but it's different, right?
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.239
So then he prays the Lord's Prayer, right?
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:37.519
And and ironically to me, so many of us recite the Lord's Prayer as vain repetition instead of seeing what Jesus meant from that is each of those pieces, right?
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.079
Our father, he talks about God as Father.
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:42.320
There's relationship that's that's there.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:59.440
And so if you break apart the Lord's Prayer, it's beautiful and it's such a great model for how we should engage in prayer rather than just repeat it mindlessly, which again, ironically, it's like it's the power that is there, so many of us miss.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:06.559
And so I know just in my own devotional life, I have this desire for for holiness.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:10.800
I see the need for it in our our ministry leaders, in our churches.
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.480
We see so many uh pastors and leaders who fall away, who fall into sin.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:24.960
And it's so tragic to see how how ministries fall apart and the impact that that has on other people.
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:29.760
Oh gosh, what's missing there isn't that they weren't opening their Bible.
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:35.199
They weren't, but but they weren't the Bible wasn't in them, right, in the way that it needs to be.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.199
There's there's a double life or there's an uh something going on, right, where we're carnal.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.559
Uh, and and that is the opposite of this whole goal of holiness.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:44.880
Yeah.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.199
And I just think for many of us, the holiness is not even a goal.
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.320
You know, my concern is that it's it's not even on our list.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.840
We did some research uh as a LifeWay team, my LifeWay Next Gen team.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:05.440
Uh, we did some research a few years back for a book uh that that came we produced with Lifeway Research that was called Nothing Less.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:10.800
And it talked about what are what are childhood uh indicators of spiritual maturity in adults?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:17.679
What are things that happened in the home for people who we surveyed who turned out to walk with the Lord into adulthood and those who did not?
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:25.679
And one of the things that stood out to me as profound from that book, it's a couple of years old now, is we we asked parents, what are your goals for your kids?
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:27.840
What are the top things you want for them?
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.599
And so the results of that was really sobering.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:33.679
So these are Christian parents, right?
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:37.599
Church-going families, good Christian homes, quote unquote.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.719
Uh, when asked, What is your goal for your kids?
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.199
25% said their top goal was their kids for their kids to be happy.
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:49.519
22% said their goal was for their kids to be successful.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.119
19% said they just want their kids to be good people.
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.079
17% said they want them to be well educated, better educated than them.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:04.719
And when we got to the question of how what percentage said that godliness or holiness was the number one goal, it was less than 10%.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:10.239
So 9% of parents said that their top goal for their kids is holiness.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.920
And I feel like there's just right there, our whole starting point is off, right?
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.079
We're we're aiming at the wrong target.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:33.840
Um, Howard Hendricks was a professor at uh Dallas Theological Seminary has a quote that he shared that I love that he said uh something like, I'll probably misquote it, but something along the lines of, you know, my biggest concern for you is not that you would fail, but that you would succeed in doing the wrong things.
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:34.400
Yeah.
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:34.880
Yeah.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.760
I just think so many of us are aiming at the wrong target.
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:39.440
A hundred percent we are.
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:53.199
And it's so it it what's so sad is you know, a parent, I mean, as a parent, you and I both understand that desire, those are all good desires for the kid.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:59.599
At the end of the day, what the parents are saying is, I want something really good for my kid.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:14.880
But what it misses is that really the only good we are gonna find in this world, the only safe umbrella of of goodness is godliness because we are in a broken world.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:29.119
It's just the fundamental misunderstanding that this is where uh the the Christian walk terminates, like that we we're living for how it plays out here.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:33.599
And that's just fundamentally not what God has promised us.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:42.480
Our promise and our hope is in him and in the relationship that we will have eternally with him beyond this broken world.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:39:04.159
And and so, you know, that right there just tells you that not only is that misguided for our kids, but but how we have a whole generation of parents that have been shaped without the beauty of God's word really just encapsulating their entire worldview.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.800
And listen, that we're not immune to that.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:14.159
Chuck, like I can fall into that of feeling like my greatest need or my kids' greatest needs, or the women in my ministry.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:23.119
I mean, I confess in the book, like you know, in the chapter on prayer, I confess that often women will come in and tell me a really hard situation.
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:36.480
And as their women's minister, as somebody who has written a book on holiness, I will think to myself, I wonder if they've talked with so-and-so because she went through this and she had a really good lawyer.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:44.800
Or I wonder if they um have talked to that doctor and gotten a second, second uh opinion on that thing.
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:56.880
Like I am practically, you know, rather than going, you know what, God's in control, yes, and he's gonna do something, and I don't have any control over the circumstances of what they're sharing.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:06.239
But what I can do is disciple them and pray for them and point them to Jesus because he will redeem whatever it is they are about to walk through.
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:14.800
So, so I I think to your point, and kind of we've talked in in this uh circle for a while, but it has to start with us.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:23.039
We have to recognize that holiness is the goal, not just for the people we're ministering to, but for us personally.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:29.840
And that perspective, trink, you know, it's gonna trickle down into all the other areas.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.440
But but yeah, it's shocking how absent holiness is from the conversation.
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:36.719
Yes, yes.
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:41.519
Well, one of the other things that you talk about is, and again, we've we've sort of touched on this.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.519
I love this conversation, it's so organic.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:46.079
So thank you for being willing to kind of go with the flow here.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:54.400
One of the other things, Tasha, that I know that you talk about is that uh that uh holiness is isn't something you do, it's it's I it's part of our identity.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.320
It's part of our identity in Christ, right?
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.239
And it's it is something that God accomplishes in us, it's not something that we accomplish.
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.519
We've covered that.
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:10.480
But the I just the idea that part of our identity in Christ is that God says we are holy, that we are set apart, we're called to it.
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:13.760
We and it's something that He does this work in us.
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:16.159
So, how how do you make that connection?
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:27.920
We know from from our more recent research and a book Flip the Script that we have out, that that this generation, Gen Z and Alpha right behind them, are driven by two big cultural needs.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:31.840
One is the need for belonging, a place to be accepted and seen and valued.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:36.639
The other is this quest to define themselves for identity, to find identity.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:46.559
And so our our solution is to counter the secular world that that tells our kids who it wants them to be is we need to tell them who God says they are.
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:47.119
Yep.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:51.119
And that's all that our our true identity is our identity in Christ.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:59.840
And so, in to what, in what way or to what degree, how can you add to this idea that holiness is part of our identity?
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:00.400
Yeah.
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:06.559
Well, I think when we understand that holiness is part of our identity, we can see that affirmed in different places in scripture.
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.639
I'm thinking of like first uh first Peter chapter two, and it says that we are a royal priesthood, a holy nation.
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:22.880
Well, that's very interesting because it checks both of those boxes that you were just saying that this new generation is kind of looking for, belonging and identity.
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:29.280
And that, and and so you are not uh you are not a royal priest, one, you're a royal priesthood.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:42.159
Like this is when you when you surrender your life to Christ, you are picking up the mantle of God's child and a part of God's children and his church, a body of believers.
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:53.760
And so there is this this community, this um, this beautiful supernatural community of people where the Holy Spirit unites us.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:43:08.800
And so, so really, that is exactly it's so it's so comforting to me to see that God's word has actually already answered the two biggest needs of this generation.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:15.599
And that's the case in in all the things, and that's how like it's so interesting too, because this is not something new.
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:29.920
You think about it, that um all of our holiness language is is uh echoed, all of our New Testament holiness uh language is echoed from Leviticus, where we are also we're God was calling the Israelites, his his children to be holy.
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:40.159
And so it's been it's been the uh mantle that we were to pick up and walk forward in since since the beginning.
00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:49.679
And yet, isn't it just like the enemy to just avert our eyes or to somehow see that, hey, that's you that you're you're not holy.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.719
That's not for you.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.000
That's that's a step too far for somebody like you.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:44:04.480
And I think he's just done a really good job on this one because it is not at Absent from scripture, you're gonna find, I mean, you know, we're called to be holy as I am holy.
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:05.920
That's what God tells us.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:31.519
And um, so so I would say to this new generation, they are, if we give them God's word and we walk with them as God's people, then I think those two foundational, you know, pillars are going to be really comforting and galvanizing for them as they grow and walk forward in their faith, because it's just addressing their deepest needs.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:38.000
It addresses their deepest needs, and honestly, everything starts with this pursuit.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:40.320
Although it's a passive pursuit, right?
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:51.440
We don't force it to happen, but just having the awareness and the willingness, the desire to ask God to do that work in us is a great place to start.
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:52.239
100%.
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:00.559
I know that we all are we all want to produce fruit and we want to see our kids and students, we want to see evidence of fruit in their lives.
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:05.360
But I'm concerned that a lot of times we're more focused on the fruit than on the root.
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:09.280
And the reality is the root is what determines the fruit, right?
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:09.920
Yes.
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:21.119
It's yes, we we need to be rooted in in holiness in that close personal desire to walk with the holy God and to be like him and to be shaped by him.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:21.679
Yes.
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:25.760
So what a great, uh, what a great challenge and a great reminder.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:27.599
Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:29.679
I think I I completely agree with you.
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.199
And we see that in scripture too.
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:38.880
I just think of, you know, the the parable of building your house on the rock and building your house on the sand.
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:46.880
And it is unfortunately, I think we are seeing, and this is not an indictment on any one person, but again, the universal church.
00:45:47.039 --> 00:46:00.239
I think this movement of deconstruction is so prevalent because there were a lot of people that, you know, checked boxes along the way, but the roots were not deep enough to withstand the winds of life.
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:06.079
And the winds of life, the brokenness of this world, it is a formidable foe.
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.360
That is for sure.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.239
It is.
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:14.159
Guys, listeners, it is so important that we pursue the right things, that we put first things first.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:25.519
That list of things that we had, you know, happiness, success, uh, uh, all the different education, being a good person, those are all great things for us to want for ourselves and for our kids.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:31.599
Many of those can come out of the overflow of this pursuit of holiness and godliness, right?
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.519
When when we are right with God, we seek first the kingdom of God and all these things are added to us.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:44.000
But when we seek any of those things first, we we miss the most important thing, or we easily could.
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:49.760
So, guys, it I want to challenge and encourage you with the words that and the wisdom that Tasha has shared.
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:50.880
Thank you so much, Tasha.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:57.920
This is such a great conversation, I think so valuable and meaningful for us as leaders in this next gen space.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:01.440
We have to make sure that we're aiming for the right target.
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:24.239
And guys, if you don't have, as you create strategy for your ministry, as you determine um uh what resources to use, what volunteers to elevate, the influence that you have and will be, we have to have the goal of godliness, the goal of holiness at the top of our list to know him, to be like him, and to make him known.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:26.800
And so we have to get that first, you guys.
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:37.119
Let this be a call and a challenge for you as you lead your team and as you lead the kids and students in your ministries, that we are pointing them towards this goal of holiness.
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:41.199
Uh, that is what the Lord has for us, and everything else is secondary.
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:45.679
Uh, I think of how long eternity will be and how short this life is in comparison.
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.320
And if we could just understand that perspective, it would change the way we live this life.
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.559
I'm saying that because I need to hear it too, right?
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:54.079
Because I don't have it right either.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:07.519
But guys, let's let's work this week to lead our teams and in our own lives to lean in on getting the right thing in the number one space as we pursue godliness and holiness.
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:11.519
Tasha, thank you so much for your time and thanks for your wisdom.
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:18.079
I so uh admire the work that you have done, the personal reflection, the advice that you have.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:26.960
I know this is largely a book that you've written for a female audience, uh, but there's so much truth and value in this that I got so much out of it.
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:34.480
The book is set apart for more, uh, and it's available at Lifeway.com or Amazon or wherever you find books.
00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:37.599
I would encourage you guys to look for this book.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:39.760
Uh, it's the concepts in there are great.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:50.960
It takes the things that we've touched on today and expands them in such great depth that this is a very worthwhile read in a book that should be on your shelf, and that I would recommend that you recommend to others.
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.639
So, Tasha, thank you for that, and thanks for your time today.
00:48:54.719 --> 00:49:01.360
We so appreciate your friendship to our life weight, uh our life weight listeners and to the next gen space.
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:23.440
This episode of the Etch NextGen Ministry Podcast was brought to you by our incredible production team, executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Hogan, edited by Trey Garza with sound engineer Donnie Gordon, and recorded in the Lifeway Podcast Studios at Lifeway headquarters in Brentwood, Tennessee.
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.199
I'm your host, Chuck Peters.
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.320
Thanks again for joining us.
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:32.480
We'll see you back again soon for another episode of the Etch Next Gen Ministry Podcast.