00:00:04
S1: Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. I am so thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He is giving it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well, today I want to encourage you as you navigate through desert seasons. Maybe you're in a desert season of your life right now, your spiritual walk with Christ. The question that I want us to consider is, how do we survive and thrive in what can be called a desert season spiritually? How do we navigate seasons where God seems silent, where our prayers feel empty, where the Lord seems distant? Uh. That is the focus of the book that I hold in my hand today, which I highly recommend to you. It simply is entitled When God Seems Distant, Surprising ways, God deepens our faith and draws us near. The author is Kyle Strobel. Kyle is no stranger to the program. We've been blessed to have him on before. He is an author. He's a professor. He's a theologian. Kyle is more specifically the director of the Institute of Spiritual Formation and professor of spiritual theology and formation at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University School that I love and appreciate deeply my alma mater. So grateful for Kyle and his work there. And I really want to commend this book to you so that you, unlike most evangelical Christians, will have a rich and robust theology of how God uses desert seasons, seasons of hardship, difficulty, distance, and silence to shape us deeply for his purposes and plans. Kyle is with me today. Kyle. How are you, brother?
00:02:22
S2: So good to be with you, Chris. Bless you brother. I'm doing well. It's a beautiful Southern California day and, um. Yeah, I'm just thrilled to be with you.
00:02:30
S1: It's hard to talk about, uh, desert seasons and, uh, hardship when you're in a beautiful California weather, but let's try our best to do that. I told you kind of jokingly before we came on the air today, that my goal is to make it through this conversation without tears. And, uh, but I partially mean that because, man, it's been, uh, in particular last few years for us on a personal level for me and my family. Been certainly a difficult season, full of challenges and hardships from physical sickness and illness to loss of loved ones and other relational challenges. But yet, God has been faithful and. And what I appreciate about your book is that you introduce us to a theology that I think many of us are underdeveloped in. Before we dive into the book, I want to read a verse of Scripture. I think to me helps to give this conversation context. And it's Paul's writing in first Corinthians chapter three. You'll be familiar with that. Kyle. Uh, he's writing to the Corinthians there, and he says something that on the surface seems pretty harsh. He says, uh, brothers, I could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not ready. Um, when you read that in light of your book, help me to understand the connection and the context here.
00:04:07
S2: Yeah. Well, that's Chris, that's such an important passage for me because one of the things Paul shows us here is that the Christian life is a maturing life. And so just like we think about children, you know, there's infants, there's adolescents, there's adults, right? Like we go through these seasons and each season has different emphases. And so Paul's looking at the Corinthians and it's interesting, he calls them fleshly because typically, and that's what you mean by harsh, I think, because typically we kind of hold that word off for unbelievers.
00:04:40
S1: Mhm.
00:04:41
S2: But Paul's saying your your babies in Jesus and that's fine. It's actually fine to be an infant in Christ. But his point to them is, but you shouldn't still be in infancy. So we don't blame infants for being self-centered. Although we all know infants are self-centered.
00:04:57
S1: Yes.
00:04:58
S2: The problem is, if you have an adolescent who still wants a bottle of milk instead of solid food, like something's gone wrong here. And so Paul's revealing to us here that we're all on this developmental journey of maturation, that things that were good for us, that were actually virtues as infants now kind of become sinful and vices as we grow. And so, you know, one of the things that one of the images that scripture uses, and actually the Protestant tradition often uses this, I think of, you know, Jonathan Edwards, the, the early evangelical American theologian, he would often use the language of weaning to talk about growth. And he said, you know, we need to be weaned off of our flesh and onto the spirit. But if if you've ever weaned a baby, You know that. The baby doesn't think this is good. This doesn't feel like growth. And so I think what we see here is that things we learn early on in our faith that we're probably good actually, are things we need to learn to lay aside. And I know in my own life, you know, I, as a as a young believer, I was filled with joy and excitement and passion and, and those things animated my faith. And what I didn't realize is the Lord wanted me to wean off of those things onto deeper things like love and faith and hope and, and yet I was, I was interpreting God's presence based on how I felt. And so suddenly I found myself in a desert season. Yeah. And I thought I did something wrong. Like, why did God abandon me? Like I, I, I'm still doing what I'm meant to be doing. And the problem then is we begin to tell ourselves, oh, if we just get a little better, or if we just try a little harder, or if we just get a little more passionate. And what we don't realize is we're like that baby thinking, I just need the bottle. Like, why won't you give me the bottle again? And the parents know I could give you the bottle, but that actually is not good for you. You, you need to be on solid food. And so one of the brilliant things Paul reveals to us here is, I think pastorally, we need to be able to discern where are people, how do I name the truth of their life, but also how do I meet them where they actually are?
00:07:35
S1: So let me let me jump in here because there's two things I want to also make sure we clarify. So you helped to, in your professorial work, uh, focus on spiritual formation. So for those who don't understand what spiritual formation is, it is exactly what Kyle just described. It is the study of how we spiritually are formed and how we mature as disciples of Christ. So this book really is a reflection of his deep thinking and study and journeying there. The second thing that I want to say is that your book is really helping us to think through how God. God uses seasons of hardship, of tears, of silence, desert seasons, as you call them, and as a part of that process, as opposed to us thinking that somehow this is an intrusion, an interruption in concert with God's will, purpose for my life. You're actually saying is that, no, these seasons play a very vital part. And earlier this week, yesterday, as a matter of fact, I got a chance to grab breakfast with a young leader at our church, and he's a phenomenal young leader doing a great job. First time in the type of leadership position in the local church that he's been in. And his question to me was, hey, I have not had the same passion that I had a year ago. Just the excitement and passion has not been there. I've been showing up for work. I've been going through the duties that I'm responsible for. Is something wrong? Is something wrong? And and again, I hear you saying that this is our natural default to assume something's wrong. When these seasons come into our lives where our prayers feel empty, God seems silent. There isn't the same type of emotional arousal that we're used to. But what you're saying is that not only may something not be wrong? There's a lot, right? You say this in your book, you open with this line consistently in Scripture. God's people are baffled by how he chooses to lead. Let's talk about for a few moments why desert seasons still seem to be, for most evangelicals, foreign to the normal Christian life. Why is it that we still see these types of seasons of hardship as, um, not in concert with God's developmental plan for us?
00:10:23
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, I think one of the things that ends up happening, and I would say you see this in the lives of the disciples with Jesus, you know, the the initial season of faith, God often very kindly floods us with what the tradition used to call consolation. Right. Just joy and passion and excitement. And, and this is part of his weaning us off of the world. You know, a lot of a lot of us were living pretty chaotic lives and were addicted to all sorts of things and were, um, just mired in the flesh. And then suddenly, sometimes immediately, like one day, I was obsessed with the things of the world. And the next day, all I wanted to do was to go to church and to hear another sermon and to go to another Bible study.
00:11:10
S1: Mhm.
00:11:10
S2: Well, why did that happen? Well, it happened because the Lord, like like an infant, he's he's kind of holding you in your in his arms and he's saying, I'm going to flood you with the very thing that drives your life. I'm going to fill you with joy towards good things. Well, in our youth, we imagine this is unbelievable. It's just going to keep on being like this for eternity. And one day, of course, we will know that day. But we have to remember that Scripture calls us to walk by faith and not by sight. And I'm going to be honest, Chris, you know, when I, I grew up in an evangelicalism. That was constantly trying to get me excited and passionate. And no one said this to me. But what I learned was that I needed faith to become a Christian. But the goal was to never live by faith. Instead, the goal was to find site or to find sense. You know, site is a is a sense of the body. It's to find, in my sense, experiences something that could kind of animate my life. And what the Lord consistently shows his people is, no, you're going to have to trust me. You're going to have to walk by faith. And so and you know, one of the passages I look at is Deuteronomy eight two. You know, the Lord leads his people out of Egypt very visibly. A lot of passion here, a here, a lot of excitement. I plagues and and then he marches them in the desert without food or water. Like. No one saw that coming.
00:12:52
S1: No one saw that coming. Yeah.
00:12:54
S2: You know, they're thinking the Lord's going to establish us. We'll reign and rule and things just like the disciples did the disciples.
00:13:00
S1: I mean, you think about Peter. Peter didn't sign up to be called Satan. You know, get behind me, Satan.
00:13:07
S2: That's right. And I think of the passage where, you know, Jesus is now making the journey to the cross. And he asked the disciples what they're talking about. And they were all debating which one of them is the greatest.
00:13:19
S1: Oh my God.
00:13:19
S2: They're not on the same path he's on.
00:13:22
S1: They're not.
00:13:22
S2: And he wants to show. So Deuteronomy eight two says, the Lord leads us in the desert to show us what is in our hearts.
00:13:28
S1: Yeah. Yeah. Because this. So this is a good place for us to pause. And I want to pause here because I want to pick this thought up. Deuteronomy eight two tells tells us that the Lord leads us in the desert so that he can reveal what's in our hearts. We're going to talk about that on the other side of this break. Friends, I'm going to tell you, you don't want to miss a second of this conversation. Every sentence of Kyle's book is so rich with wisdom, biblical insight on how God uses hard seasons. Seasons of tears. Dry seasons, desert seasons in our lives to reveal what's in our heart, to shape us and form us into Christ likeness. Uh. So that we might know him and grow in him. I want you to get a copy of this book When God seems Distant. And if the title speaks to your heart, maybe that's God nudging you to get your copy today, go to equip radio.org. We'll be right back. When adult children pull away, parents are often left with grief and confusion and unanswered questions. But there is real hope for your family, resolve conflict and find peace and hope with adult children. By Kathy Cook gives parents a biblical tool and practical strategies to pursue peace and rebuild what's been lost. A copy can be yours today with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. I want to thank all of our partners for your faithful generosity, prayerfully and financially. You enable us to be here each and every day to equip Christians to more effectively live, share and defend our faith. I'm grateful. I'm humbled by our partnership in the gospel. Maybe you're listening and you've been blessed by equip, and you've been looking for ways to support to deepen that relationship. We'd love to connect with you. The phone number to learn more is 8886444144, that's 8886444144. Or go to equip radio.org. Today my guest is author professor, theologian Karl Strobel. He, along with his co-author John Koh, has written a phenomenal book called When God Seems Distant. Today, we are addressing this phenomenon that happens in every Christian's life and how we can navigate and find streams in the desert. I want to go back, Kyle, to the verse we were referencing before our last break, verse number two of Deuteronomy, chapter eight. And he says simply this, and you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. How does God use seasons of lament, hardship, pain to reveal what's in our heart?
00:16:49
S2: Mhm. Yeah. Well, you know, this is one of those funny things where everyone has always said this, right? We always know that that God does quite a lot of work in our suffering, but then we don't actually bring it into our view of life. It's almost one of those things that's just on the side, in the background. We're kind of all hoping it doesn't happen to us, but we imagine maybe God will lead us a different way. And what we see consistently in Scripture is that God is leading his people in such a way that he is unraveling their hearts. And so, I mean, if you just think how the Bible talks about itself in Hebrews 412 and 13, that it's a double edged sword. It pierces to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And so even our reading of Scripture should unveil the deep movements of soul. Or in James one, we're told, Scripture is a mirror, and our temptation is to look in the in the word and then turn around and forget what we look like. And so what the desert does is it unveils to us, oh, I've been following God just out of my passion and out of my excitement. And actually, I haven't necessarily followed him because he's God.
00:18:14
S1: Mhm.
00:18:16
S2: And the Lord is so gracious to us because in Christ Jesus, he's rescued us in Christ's righteousness, even in Christ's holiness, so that now he can show us. But I want you to grow up and walk with me because I'm God. And the difficulty is, I think many of us in those early seasons of consolation and passion and joy. One of the things that happens, and in the book, I use an image of. It's like you've been caught up in this beautiful lake. And even though. At the bottom of the lake, it's a junkyard. Like you don't have to look at it. You're just enjoying a day sailing. And the problem is, if you forget what's down there, if you forget what is really in your soul, what ends up happening is we grow naive as, as Peter actually says, you will grow so nearsighted that you are blind if you forget what you've been forgiven. And so.
00:19:18
S1: So, so here's my question for you. And I just want to jump in. And I'll be honest with you, brother, I am able to listen to your responses to these questions all day because I think they're so rich and it's so helpful. And again, this is such an And underdeveloped area of evangelical theology in our day and age. So I'm grateful for you kind of navigating us through this conversation. But but here's my question, and I'm asking it on behalf of those who, like me, are currently in a season of tears or in a season of brokenheartedness or pain. Um, how is this good news? Take us back to the gospel. How is it good news for Peter to be called a devil? How is it good news for Israel to be led in the wilderness? How is it good news for the disciples to experience persecution and pain and death and scattering and all that comes along with the Christian life? How is the desert season of our life good news?
00:20:28
S2: Well, the Lord teaches us to trust in the desert. And so it's in the desert where we learn that his power is made perfect in our weakness. It's in the desert that we truly learn. Lord Jesus, without you, I can do nothing. I mean, I underlined in my Bible as a high school student those passages, but I didn't believe them. I thought I believed them, I genuinely thought I believed that God's power was made perfect in my weakness. And then in the desert, God brought me into my weakness. And all I could say is, God, get me out of here. This doesn't work. This isn't where life is found. And so it's in the desert where the Lord will actually teach us to rest upon him alone, instead of trusting in our own ability to make life happen. And I think part of what the desert does is it tears down the fantasies we like to construct. I mean, I think of my friend Kelly Capek. Yes. Who? You know, it was the suffering of his wife's cancer diagnosis. Mhm. Were suddenly, you know, you're realizing I don't control any of this?
00:21:46
S1: No.
00:21:47
S2: Or my friend Todd Billings, the theologian who got his own cancer diagnosis. And he realizes I've been living my life as if I have some control over this. And the realization of, Lord, all I have is you.
00:22:00
S1: It's so interesting that you mention that because I'm often asked. Our oldest son passed away in 2019. And I'm often asked by people, did your theology change as a result of that? And my response is that the core tenets of the Christian faith, I believe before our son passed, I still believe them. I still believe that the Bible is His word inspired, inerrant, infallible. Still believe that Jesus is Lord. Salvation is found in Christ alone. But the number one area of my personal theology that changed is I didn't realize that lurking underneath the surface of all of those things is a high view. I had a high view of my sovereignty and a low view of his sovereignty. I was living life in a way almost formulaically that if I do good things, I'll get good outcomes as I define them. And, um, yeah, since that time, I think that I've developed a high view of his sovereignty and a pretty low view of my sovereignty. Like, I'm at the point now where I realize I am not in control. I'm not even if I'm a good boy, I'm not able to control outcomes. God is Lord over my life, and he has developed a plan that is perfect for me of sanctification. And it's going to be filled with some stuff that I will want, desire and enjoy. But it's also going to have plenty of stuff that I would not invite. Don't desire, don't enjoy, but is so good for me and so good in shaping me. So is that what you're describing?
00:23:45
S2: That's exactly right. And I as I look at my own life, I just I just now know if the Lord would have given me what I wanted, I would have destroyed my life.
00:23:57
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so let me ask this question. Does this all mean that we need to rethink the metrics of Christian success that we often measure the Christian life off of?
00:24:12
S2: Yes, very much so. I think, you know, I and I would say just that passage where Paul is wrestling with God's power, being made perfect in his weakness. Mhm. You know, when the evangelicalism I grew up in told me to never minister out of weakness, to find my strengths and to minister there.
00:24:33
S1: Mhm.
00:24:34
S2: And what you find in both first and second Corinthians is a kind of direct attack on that kind of thinking. That's you know, Paul's going to say that's fleshly thinking. You're thinking like a mere human, he says at one point. And I think we want to judge things by sight when the Lord is calling us to have faith. And so, you know, one of the ways I put this for folks is to say, you know, if your life and your decisions make sense, if it's an equation that you can solve and God's not necessary, there's a massive problem.
00:25:11
S1: All right. We're going to pause there, friends. I hope this conversation is rich for you. Uh, again, reading Kyle's book has been honestly transformational to me. Hopefully you hear that. And the reason why I have these conversations, bring on authors and recommend books to you is not just to fill space. I'm really trying to share with you the things that God has used to shape and impact me in deep and profound ways. I hope it'll be a blessing to you. I believe it would be if you got your copy of When God Seems Distant by Kyle Strobel and John Koh. Can you go to our website and find out more? Go to equip radio.org. We'll be right back right after this. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Today we're talking about when God seems distant. I want to help you to navigate those seasons, to understand how God is at work in your heart and difficult seasons, and to encourage you to know that there are streams in the desert. Kyle Strobel and John Koh has written a phenomenal book. What you're going to find in the book is it's really divided into two major parts as I read it. One is a developmental theology or a developmental spirituality that's pulled from tradition and scripture on how God uses, uh, these, uh, these desert seasons of our life. But then there is a rich discussion about the places that we turn instead of turning to God. And, and I want to take the conversation there, Kyle. But before we dive into the question of what places do we turn to instead of turning to God in our desert seasons, I want to ask a deeply personal question of you about Jody and Jenny Hummer Humber. Um, you dedicate the book to them. You say, thank you for your encouragement and your desire to discover the Lord in all seasons of your life. You are in our prayers. We are grateful for you and your open heartedness to us and to the Lord. Bless you as you continually draw near to him to seek his face. What is Jody and Jenny? What have they taught you about seasons where God seems distant?
00:27:44
S2: Well, you know, they this is a couple who kind of came alongside of our department, have supported us, have met with us and just you know, I was so struck by the posture as Christians who were just so open to whatever the Lord had. And, you know, oftentimes we'll have people that, that, um, thankfully, you know, want to support us and help us. And sometimes that's financial, sometimes it's other ways who, um, are really hoping for like a victory, right? They're really hoping like something big is going to happen with this. And every time I would talk to Jody and Jeannie, they would always just have such open hands with, look the Lord. The Lord's going to do what the Lord's going to do. And it's our job not to not to make things happen, but to be faithful with what he's provided us. And regardless of what happens to be to trust that that he is the Lord of this. And they've just they've been such a both a gift and a model of, you know, struggling with various things life difficulties, hard car accidents that have led to all sorts of things, but always trusting the Lord's, the Lord's here with me, that none of this is meaningless. You know, one of the things that I've seen in their life that I personally have struggled to kind of learn, I think, is that the Lord wastes nothing and that, you know, life isn't about how do I suffer? Or can I get away with not suffering? It's either an unbeliever whose suffering is meaningless, or the Christian who comes to know love in suffering because God in Christ Jesus suffered in our stead. And I, I've just as I as I grow older in the faith, I gravitate towards these folks who are older than me, who have been able to kind of.
00:29:41
S1: Your role models change.
00:29:42
S2: Those sorts of things. Yeah.
00:29:44
S1: Your role models change. What things do we turn to often instead of God?
00:29:51
S2: Well, you know, we end up listing several, but I do think there's two big umbrellas here. On the one hand, I think most Christians just become good. And so one of the things that I think the Lord shows us in the desert is that you're actually not interested in me. You're interested in having me on your own terms. And you think the way to do that is just by being good. And so moralism as we would sometimes call it, or legalism. Right. These are attempts to think that the Christian life is primarily about being good. And you know, what's interesting is in Galatians three three, Paul goes after this. He tells them, why have you begun in the spirit, but are now trying to be perfected in the flesh?
00:30:41
S1: Yeah.
00:30:42
S2: Like and, and it's amazing. The very earliest churches, the same thing happens in Corinth and as well as in colossi, like all these early churches, people immediately turn to just being good. But then on the other side of it, I think for many of us, being passionate has kind of replaced trying to be good.
00:31:03
S1: Mhm.
00:31:04
S2: And so we're in the desert and we think, I got to get out of here and the way out of here. The way to get God kind of back on my side is to pump passion in my will. And so suddenly, our spiritual life looks a lot like the coach of the football team at half time, when they're down by 20 screaming at his players. You gotta dig deep.
00:31:28
S1: Well, certainly when we don't have that, we feel like something's wrong. And if I you used a number of great examples. If I could just add one more example that I learned from you and your book. And that is and this is this was very convicting for me is, oh, no, Chris, you might be behaving like a pagan and like the prophets of Baal. And so that takes us back to first, first kings, right? Yeah. And, uh, a Elijah, many will know the story. I believe it's chapter 17, um, where Elijah comes up and is confronted with these 400 prophets of Baal. And what are they convinced of, Kyle? They're convinced if we just cut ourselves. More will get God's attention now. Many of us will look at that and say, there's no way. I mean, I'm so far from that. There's no way that I would respond or interact with God that way. But in what ways am I, Kyle? Similar maybe to Baal worshipers?
00:32:42
S2: Mhm. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I, I have found in my own life, if I just pray with a little more vigor, if I just sing a little louder, if I, if I, you know.
00:32:57
S1: And serve a little more or try a little harder.
00:33:01
S2: That's right. Give a little more. Like there's this idea. And I think one of the things that's happening in us is we're, we don't think we're doing this, but we're trying to get our hooks in God to kind of tether him to our actions. And I think with job, God is asking us to stand before the whirlwind and know I can't control this God. And that's actually good news. It's good news that I can't control this God, but I've got to first wrestle with. I don't think that's good news. That that sounds scary. Actually, it sounds out of control. And but it's only there that we can come to really trust. Know God is good and he. He's working for my good. And the difficulty is we we actually want to make this more mechanized. I think of Israel with sacrifices where they begin to think sacrifices are a way to kind of get God on their own terms, or control him or make him do what he wants. And eventually he just tells them, I don't want your sacrifices. I want a broken and a contrite heart. And that's what we need to bring to the Lord. And that's what the desert often calls us into.
00:34:12
S1: All right. Let me ask this question. Um, before we take our, our, our next break. And that is in what ways do you think the church needs to change in how we prepare people for these inevitable hard seasons?
00:34:33
S2: Yeah. I mean, I think we need to do a better job up front of kind of narrating the normality of these things. I think helping people see that we follow the Lord Jesus who prayed, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And because it's in his name that we pray. We we shouldn't be surprised when that prayer is on our lips as well. Mhm. I think we need to narrate scripture story and really help people understand. Notice Jesus is, you know, we like to go back to your earlier point. He calls Peter Satan to his face.
00:35:10
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:11
S2: This isn't a comfortable God to be in his presence. And yet that's where the good news is found. And, you know, I would say to folks, you know, in in Luke 747, Jesus tells us that the one who is forgiven little will love little. Yeah. And what that shows us is that the path of growing in love is to increasingly come to see how much you need forgiveness, and then discover the Lord's forgiveness in those places. So we don't need to be afraid of our brokenness. We don't need to be afraid of the places we need to grow and our sinfulness. But we do need to draw near to our Lord. And so any anything we find in us that leads us to ourselves rather than to God, that's a kind of idolatry that we need to lay down.
00:36:03
S1: Yeah. And the flip and reverse of that, I've often quoted Nancy Wolgemuth, who says that anything that makes us more dependent upon God is ultimately a blessing. And it's important for us to recognize that so often we, as you, as you mentioned, we want to start in faith, but we don't want to have to live a life of faith. And so that's what makes these hard seasons so disorienting. But what if I told you, friends, that there were streams in the desert? That is exactly the argument that Kyle Strobel and Joe Janco make in this incredible book when God seems distant. I can't urge you enough to get your copy. I'll simply encourage you to do what I did and. And that is to get a copy and to read it, and to allow this book to impact your soul, to challenge you, to rebuke you, correct you, to lead you to Christ, and to help you to learn the way of the Lord, um, in a more pure and sincere way. I think it'll be a blessing to your heart. I want to encourage you to get a copy. Go to our website, equip radio.org while you're there. If you'd like to partner with us, support the ministry prayerfully, financially, please do so. Dial the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. We'll be right back. Each day on equip, we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes. Your support as an equipper helps us reach more people with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call (888) 644-4144 or go online to equip. radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. It's amazing how quickly time has gone by in this conversation. We have scratched the surface. There's so much biblical truth, deep spiritual wisdom, so much intimacy with Christ in the book when God seems distant. I promise you, you will be grateful for it. And and what I also think will happen, what I already anticipate happening in my life is you'll probably give away a lot of copies. You'll probably end up ordering multiple copies and saying, man, I just gave mine away. Let me get it again and have it in my library and you'll give it again and again and again. Because you'll run into so many Christians who think that somehow God has abandoned them, or that they must have done something bad because they're in a hard season, uh, Christians who are very disoriented and confused and wondering, why do my prayers seem empty? Why does my spirituality seem desolate? Why does God feel like he's withdrawn from me? And you'll be able to say to them, friend, read something that has nourished my soul as well. Uh, Kyle Strobel is my guest today. Kyle, there's so many questions I want to ask, but maybe one that I think is important is you frame your book in sections that you title either unlearning or relearning. Why is it important for us to see discipleship not just as the process of learning the right things, but unlearning the wrong things?
00:39:54
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, that kind of framework, um, follows. So John and I are doing a series of these books, and the first book where prayer Becomes Real followed a similar trajectory of unlearning and relearning. And, you know, as I read the Gospels and I look at what it would have been like to be a disciple following Jesus, that's the framework that comes to me. They're right about a lot of things. They think Jesus is the Messiah. They think following him is better than following the Pharisees and the Sadducees and. But then they start following him and all along the way. I mean, we've we've referenced several times that section from Mark eight where Jesus calls Peter Satan. Yeah, that was right after Peter exclaimed the truth. You are the Christ, the Son of God. And then Jesus starts explaining the kind of Christ he is. I came to suffer, and I came to die and to be rejected. And Peter wants none of this. He. He's like, I didn't sign up for this. And, and all throughout we just see these experiences and, you know, and one of the things that struck me as a, you know, a lot of my academic work is in early evangelicalism and Puritanism and yeah, you know, one of the lessons I've learned from those. Kind of forefathers of the faith and for mothers of the faith at certain times is, is that most of them all say the same thing, which at the end of their life, they look back at their life and think, you know, I feel like I was a better Christian for the first 2 or 3 years. I was a Christian than I am today. That's actually a direct quote from Jonathan Edwards. And, and he's he's kind of wrestling with that in his maturity. The funny thing is, when he thought he was such a great Christian, no one else did, right? Like no one else thought he was wise or deep or holy. But now, at the end of his life, when people do think that about him, he says, I just see my sin more. I see my desperation more. But then he says, but I know I depend on God more. Today. I know that I just rest in God's sovereignty.
00:41:58
S3: Wow.
00:41:58
S2: And you know, I just found my own story in that. And just the realization that we see this in Scripture, we see I actually think the book of Jonah shows this to us. I think the book of Mark shows this. I think a lot of these books show us that God is unraveling these deep things because he he wants a heart. He does want a broken and a contrite heart. And unfortunately, in order to try to get people moving, which I think is such a danger in pastoral ministry, is to think that it's our job to get people moving rather than shepherding them to the Lord wherever he has them. And I think.
00:42:39
S3: I unpack that a little bit.
00:42:41
S1: I unpacked a little bit. What does it mean to shepherd them to the Lord?
00:42:46
S2: Well, I kind of see and again, the books try to try to kind of map this for us a little bit where I don't want to ask the question, how do I get out from where I am? I want to know God's presence wherever I am.
00:43:00
S3: So let me just say.
00:43:01
S2: Wherever you are.
00:43:02
S1: Let me just say this really quickly. What you just said is so profound. It could be a whole program. One of the things that we have to come to the reality of is that whether we are parents or pastors, we naturally have a deep love. We've been wired this way for those that we are called to shepherd lead parent. And as one mom said to me, she jokingly said, Chris, I don't even like when the wind blows hard on my kids. You know, it's this natural disposition to want to rescue them from pain and discomfort. That's natural and that's not evil. It's it's a good, uh, I think it comes from a good virtue. However, what you just said is so important, and that is that we have to shift the goal from being rescue all the time to being relationship. The goal of the Christian life is communion with Christ. It is. It is being formed into the likeness and image of God, not through formulas or processes that are false structures, but through genuine intimacy and relationship. So this is what you're pressing in on that, that I have to not automatically think, how do I rescue the person I love from grief, from hardship, from pain, from doors being shut in their face, from tears, from losses that they're experiencing. Instead of doing that, we have to be able to say, how do I help them to see the crisis closer than they think and that he is with them? And how do I help them to find him so that they might commune with him in the midst of it to me? Friend, this is the power of your book. This is what you guys have have done. What's one thing you hope people walk away with when they read? Uh. When God seems distant?
00:45:11
S2: I hope that they get a vision for love, as well as finding the Lord wherever he has them. Instead of always thinking that I've got to go somewhere else to discover him. I think this is the lesson we see all throughout Scripture. Whether it's the surprise of the prophets that God is even here in Babylon with us, or if it's the surprise of the disciples that that Christ shows up in the room with locked doors, that it was in your sin that Christ died for you. And so wherever you find yourself, turn to him. Don't, don't fix your life as if you can fix it apart from him. But draw near to your Lord.
00:45:55
S1: What a great conversation I think I can say I successfully made it through this conversation without crying. Um, but my heart has been deeply moved, and certainly our hearts burn within us as we talked about the grace of our Savior. Grace is a gift, and it is a beautiful communion with Jesus. And I want you to enjoy that communion. It is the invitation of Christ to come. My beloved, come away. Be with me. And that's what we have in this great book. Cal, thank you for the gift of when God seems distant. Friends, go to our website. Get your copy at equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. And until we're together again next time, always remember equip with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. I am so thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He is giving it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well, today I want to encourage you as you navigate through desert seasons. Maybe you're in a desert season of your life right now, your spiritual walk with Christ. The question that I want us to consider is, how do we survive and thrive in what can be called a desert season spiritually? How do we navigate seasons where God seems silent, where our prayers feel empty, where the Lord seems distant? Uh. That is the focus of the book that I hold in my hand today, which I highly recommend to you. It simply is entitled When God Seems Distant, Surprising ways, God deepens our faith and draws us near. The author is Kyle Strobel. Kyle is no stranger to the program. We've been blessed to have him on before. He is an author. He's a professor. He's a theologian. Kyle is more specifically the director of the Institute of Spiritual Formation and professor of spiritual theology and formation at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University School that I love and appreciate deeply my alma mater. So grateful for Kyle and his work there. And I really want to commend this book to you so that you, unlike most evangelical Christians, will have a rich and robust theology of how God uses desert seasons, seasons of hardship, difficulty, distance, and silence to shape us deeply for his purposes and plans. Kyle is with me today. Kyle. How are you, brother?
00:02:22
S2: So good to be with you, Chris. Bless you brother. I'm doing well. It's a beautiful Southern California day and, um. Yeah, I'm just thrilled to be with you.
00:02:30
S1: It's hard to talk about, uh, desert seasons and, uh, hardship when you're in a beautiful California weather, but let's try our best to do that. I told you kind of jokingly before we came on the air today, that my goal is to make it through this conversation without tears. And, uh, but I partially mean that because, man, it's been, uh, in particular last few years for us on a personal level for me and my family. Been certainly a difficult season, full of challenges and hardships from physical sickness and illness to loss of loved ones and other relational challenges. But yet, God has been faithful and. And what I appreciate about your book is that you introduce us to a theology that I think many of us are underdeveloped in. Before we dive into the book, I want to read a verse of Scripture. I think to me helps to give this conversation context. And it's Paul's writing in first Corinthians chapter three. You'll be familiar with that. Kyle. Uh, he's writing to the Corinthians there, and he says something that on the surface seems pretty harsh. He says, uh, brothers, I could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not ready. Um, when you read that in light of your book, help me to understand the connection and the context here.
00:04:07
S2: Yeah. Well, that's Chris, that's such an important passage for me because one of the things Paul shows us here is that the Christian life is a maturing life. And so just like we think about children, you know, there's infants, there's adolescents, there's adults, right? Like we go through these seasons and each season has different emphases. And so Paul's looking at the Corinthians and it's interesting, he calls them fleshly because typically, and that's what you mean by harsh, I think, because typically we kind of hold that word off for unbelievers.
00:04:40
S1: Mhm.
00:04:41
S2: But Paul's saying your your babies in Jesus and that's fine. It's actually fine to be an infant in Christ. But his point to them is, but you shouldn't still be in infancy. So we don't blame infants for being self-centered. Although we all know infants are self-centered.
00:04:57
S1: Yes.
00:04:58
S2: The problem is, if you have an adolescent who still wants a bottle of milk instead of solid food, like something's gone wrong here. And so Paul's revealing to us here that we're all on this developmental journey of maturation, that things that were good for us, that were actually virtues as infants now kind of become sinful and vices as we grow. And so, you know, one of the things that one of the images that scripture uses, and actually the Protestant tradition often uses this, I think of, you know, Jonathan Edwards, the, the early evangelical American theologian, he would often use the language of weaning to talk about growth. And he said, you know, we need to be weaned off of our flesh and onto the spirit. But if if you've ever weaned a baby, You know that. The baby doesn't think this is good. This doesn't feel like growth. And so I think what we see here is that things we learn early on in our faith that we're probably good actually, are things we need to learn to lay aside. And I know in my own life, you know, I, as a as a young believer, I was filled with joy and excitement and passion and, and those things animated my faith. And what I didn't realize is the Lord wanted me to wean off of those things onto deeper things like love and faith and hope and, and yet I was, I was interpreting God's presence based on how I felt. And so suddenly I found myself in a desert season. Yeah. And I thought I did something wrong. Like, why did God abandon me? Like I, I, I'm still doing what I'm meant to be doing. And the problem then is we begin to tell ourselves, oh, if we just get a little better, or if we just try a little harder, or if we just get a little more passionate. And what we don't realize is we're like that baby thinking, I just need the bottle. Like, why won't you give me the bottle again? And the parents know I could give you the bottle, but that actually is not good for you. You, you need to be on solid food. And so one of the brilliant things Paul reveals to us here is, I think pastorally, we need to be able to discern where are people, how do I name the truth of their life, but also how do I meet them where they actually are?
00:07:35
S1: So let me let me jump in here because there's two things I want to also make sure we clarify. So you helped to, in your professorial work, uh, focus on spiritual formation. So for those who don't understand what spiritual formation is, it is exactly what Kyle just described. It is the study of how we spiritually are formed and how we mature as disciples of Christ. So this book really is a reflection of his deep thinking and study and journeying there. The second thing that I want to say is that your book is really helping us to think through how God. God uses seasons of hardship, of tears, of silence, desert seasons, as you call them, and as a part of that process, as opposed to us thinking that somehow this is an intrusion, an interruption in concert with God's will, purpose for my life. You're actually saying is that, no, these seasons play a very vital part. And earlier this week, yesterday, as a matter of fact, I got a chance to grab breakfast with a young leader at our church, and he's a phenomenal young leader doing a great job. First time in the type of leadership position in the local church that he's been in. And his question to me was, hey, I have not had the same passion that I had a year ago. Just the excitement and passion has not been there. I've been showing up for work. I've been going through the duties that I'm responsible for. Is something wrong? Is something wrong? And and again, I hear you saying that this is our natural default to assume something's wrong. When these seasons come into our lives where our prayers feel empty, God seems silent. There isn't the same type of emotional arousal that we're used to. But what you're saying is that not only may something not be wrong? There's a lot, right? You say this in your book, you open with this line consistently in Scripture. God's people are baffled by how he chooses to lead. Let's talk about for a few moments why desert seasons still seem to be, for most evangelicals, foreign to the normal Christian life. Why is it that we still see these types of seasons of hardship as, um, not in concert with God's developmental plan for us?
00:10:23
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, I think one of the things that ends up happening, and I would say you see this in the lives of the disciples with Jesus, you know, the the initial season of faith, God often very kindly floods us with what the tradition used to call consolation. Right. Just joy and passion and excitement. And, and this is part of his weaning us off of the world. You know, a lot of a lot of us were living pretty chaotic lives and were addicted to all sorts of things and were, um, just mired in the flesh. And then suddenly, sometimes immediately, like one day, I was obsessed with the things of the world. And the next day, all I wanted to do was to go to church and to hear another sermon and to go to another Bible study.
00:11:10
S1: Mhm.
00:11:10
S2: Well, why did that happen? Well, it happened because the Lord, like like an infant, he's he's kind of holding you in your in his arms and he's saying, I'm going to flood you with the very thing that drives your life. I'm going to fill you with joy towards good things. Well, in our youth, we imagine this is unbelievable. It's just going to keep on being like this for eternity. And one day, of course, we will know that day. But we have to remember that Scripture calls us to walk by faith and not by sight. And I'm going to be honest, Chris, you know, when I, I grew up in an evangelicalism. That was constantly trying to get me excited and passionate. And no one said this to me. But what I learned was that I needed faith to become a Christian. But the goal was to never live by faith. Instead, the goal was to find site or to find sense. You know, site is a is a sense of the body. It's to find, in my sense, experiences something that could kind of animate my life. And what the Lord consistently shows his people is, no, you're going to have to trust me. You're going to have to walk by faith. And so and you know, one of the passages I look at is Deuteronomy eight two. You know, the Lord leads his people out of Egypt very visibly. A lot of passion here, a here, a lot of excitement. I plagues and and then he marches them in the desert without food or water. Like. No one saw that coming.
00:12:52
S1: No one saw that coming. Yeah.
00:12:54
S2: You know, they're thinking the Lord's going to establish us. We'll reign and rule and things just like the disciples did the disciples.
00:13:00
S1: I mean, you think about Peter. Peter didn't sign up to be called Satan. You know, get behind me, Satan.
00:13:07
S2: That's right. And I think of the passage where, you know, Jesus is now making the journey to the cross. And he asked the disciples what they're talking about. And they were all debating which one of them is the greatest.
00:13:19
S1: Oh my God.
00:13:19
S2: They're not on the same path he's on.
00:13:22
S1: They're not.
00:13:22
S2: And he wants to show. So Deuteronomy eight two says, the Lord leads us in the desert to show us what is in our hearts.
00:13:28
S1: Yeah. Yeah. Because this. So this is a good place for us to pause. And I want to pause here because I want to pick this thought up. Deuteronomy eight two tells tells us that the Lord leads us in the desert so that he can reveal what's in our hearts. We're going to talk about that on the other side of this break. Friends, I'm going to tell you, you don't want to miss a second of this conversation. Every sentence of Kyle's book is so rich with wisdom, biblical insight on how God uses hard seasons. Seasons of tears. Dry seasons, desert seasons in our lives to reveal what's in our heart, to shape us and form us into Christ likeness. Uh. So that we might know him and grow in him. I want you to get a copy of this book When God seems Distant. And if the title speaks to your heart, maybe that's God nudging you to get your copy today, go to equip radio.org. We'll be right back. When adult children pull away, parents are often left with grief and confusion and unanswered questions. But there is real hope for your family, resolve conflict and find peace and hope with adult children. By Kathy Cook gives parents a biblical tool and practical strategies to pursue peace and rebuild what's been lost. A copy can be yours today with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. I want to thank all of our partners for your faithful generosity, prayerfully and financially. You enable us to be here each and every day to equip Christians to more effectively live, share and defend our faith. I'm grateful. I'm humbled by our partnership in the gospel. Maybe you're listening and you've been blessed by equip, and you've been looking for ways to support to deepen that relationship. We'd love to connect with you. The phone number to learn more is 8886444144, that's 8886444144. Or go to equip radio.org. Today my guest is author professor, theologian Karl Strobel. He, along with his co-author John Koh, has written a phenomenal book called When God Seems Distant. Today, we are addressing this phenomenon that happens in every Christian's life and how we can navigate and find streams in the desert. I want to go back, Kyle, to the verse we were referencing before our last break, verse number two of Deuteronomy, chapter eight. And he says simply this, and you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. How does God use seasons of lament, hardship, pain to reveal what's in our heart?
00:16:49
S2: Mhm. Yeah. Well, you know, this is one of those funny things where everyone has always said this, right? We always know that that God does quite a lot of work in our suffering, but then we don't actually bring it into our view of life. It's almost one of those things that's just on the side, in the background. We're kind of all hoping it doesn't happen to us, but we imagine maybe God will lead us a different way. And what we see consistently in Scripture is that God is leading his people in such a way that he is unraveling their hearts. And so, I mean, if you just think how the Bible talks about itself in Hebrews 412 and 13, that it's a double edged sword. It pierces to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And so even our reading of Scripture should unveil the deep movements of soul. Or in James one, we're told, Scripture is a mirror, and our temptation is to look in the in the word and then turn around and forget what we look like. And so what the desert does is it unveils to us, oh, I've been following God just out of my passion and out of my excitement. And actually, I haven't necessarily followed him because he's God.
00:18:14
S1: Mhm.
00:18:16
S2: And the Lord is so gracious to us because in Christ Jesus, he's rescued us in Christ's righteousness, even in Christ's holiness, so that now he can show us. But I want you to grow up and walk with me because I'm God. And the difficulty is, I think many of us in those early seasons of consolation and passion and joy. One of the things that happens, and in the book, I use an image of. It's like you've been caught up in this beautiful lake. And even though. At the bottom of the lake, it's a junkyard. Like you don't have to look at it. You're just enjoying a day sailing. And the problem is, if you forget what's down there, if you forget what is really in your soul, what ends up happening is we grow naive as, as Peter actually says, you will grow so nearsighted that you are blind if you forget what you've been forgiven. And so.
00:19:18
S1: So, so here's my question for you. And I just want to jump in. And I'll be honest with you, brother, I am able to listen to your responses to these questions all day because I think they're so rich and it's so helpful. And again, this is such an And underdeveloped area of evangelical theology in our day and age. So I'm grateful for you kind of navigating us through this conversation. But but here's my question, and I'm asking it on behalf of those who, like me, are currently in a season of tears or in a season of brokenheartedness or pain. Um, how is this good news? Take us back to the gospel. How is it good news for Peter to be called a devil? How is it good news for Israel to be led in the wilderness? How is it good news for the disciples to experience persecution and pain and death and scattering and all that comes along with the Christian life? How is the desert season of our life good news?
00:20:28
S2: Well, the Lord teaches us to trust in the desert. And so it's in the desert where we learn that his power is made perfect in our weakness. It's in the desert that we truly learn. Lord Jesus, without you, I can do nothing. I mean, I underlined in my Bible as a high school student those passages, but I didn't believe them. I thought I believed them, I genuinely thought I believed that God's power was made perfect in my weakness. And then in the desert, God brought me into my weakness. And all I could say is, God, get me out of here. This doesn't work. This isn't where life is found. And so it's in the desert where the Lord will actually teach us to rest upon him alone, instead of trusting in our own ability to make life happen. And I think part of what the desert does is it tears down the fantasies we like to construct. I mean, I think of my friend Kelly Capek. Yes. Who? You know, it was the suffering of his wife's cancer diagnosis. Mhm. Were suddenly, you know, you're realizing I don't control any of this?
00:21:46
S1: No.
00:21:47
S2: Or my friend Todd Billings, the theologian who got his own cancer diagnosis. And he realizes I've been living my life as if I have some control over this. And the realization of, Lord, all I have is you.
00:22:00
S1: It's so interesting that you mention that because I'm often asked. Our oldest son passed away in 2019. And I'm often asked by people, did your theology change as a result of that? And my response is that the core tenets of the Christian faith, I believe before our son passed, I still believe them. I still believe that the Bible is His word inspired, inerrant, infallible. Still believe that Jesus is Lord. Salvation is found in Christ alone. But the number one area of my personal theology that changed is I didn't realize that lurking underneath the surface of all of those things is a high view. I had a high view of my sovereignty and a low view of his sovereignty. I was living life in a way almost formulaically that if I do good things, I'll get good outcomes as I define them. And, um, yeah, since that time, I think that I've developed a high view of his sovereignty and a pretty low view of my sovereignty. Like, I'm at the point now where I realize I am not in control. I'm not even if I'm a good boy, I'm not able to control outcomes. God is Lord over my life, and he has developed a plan that is perfect for me of sanctification. And it's going to be filled with some stuff that I will want, desire and enjoy. But it's also going to have plenty of stuff that I would not invite. Don't desire, don't enjoy, but is so good for me and so good in shaping me. So is that what you're describing?
00:23:45
S2: That's exactly right. And I as I look at my own life, I just I just now know if the Lord would have given me what I wanted, I would have destroyed my life.
00:23:57
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so let me ask this question. Does this all mean that we need to rethink the metrics of Christian success that we often measure the Christian life off of?
00:24:12
S2: Yes, very much so. I think, you know, I and I would say just that passage where Paul is wrestling with God's power, being made perfect in his weakness. Mhm. You know, when the evangelicalism I grew up in told me to never minister out of weakness, to find my strengths and to minister there.
00:24:33
S1: Mhm.
00:24:34
S2: And what you find in both first and second Corinthians is a kind of direct attack on that kind of thinking. That's you know, Paul's going to say that's fleshly thinking. You're thinking like a mere human, he says at one point. And I think we want to judge things by sight when the Lord is calling us to have faith. And so, you know, one of the ways I put this for folks is to say, you know, if your life and your decisions make sense, if it's an equation that you can solve and God's not necessary, there's a massive problem.
00:25:11
S1: All right. We're going to pause there, friends. I hope this conversation is rich for you. Uh, again, reading Kyle's book has been honestly transformational to me. Hopefully you hear that. And the reason why I have these conversations, bring on authors and recommend books to you is not just to fill space. I'm really trying to share with you the things that God has used to shape and impact me in deep and profound ways. I hope it'll be a blessing to you. I believe it would be if you got your copy of When God Seems Distant by Kyle Strobel and John Koh. Can you go to our website and find out more? Go to equip radio.org. We'll be right back right after this. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Today we're talking about when God seems distant. I want to help you to navigate those seasons, to understand how God is at work in your heart and difficult seasons, and to encourage you to know that there are streams in the desert. Kyle Strobel and John Koh has written a phenomenal book. What you're going to find in the book is it's really divided into two major parts as I read it. One is a developmental theology or a developmental spirituality that's pulled from tradition and scripture on how God uses, uh, these, uh, these desert seasons of our life. But then there is a rich discussion about the places that we turn instead of turning to God. And, and I want to take the conversation there, Kyle. But before we dive into the question of what places do we turn to instead of turning to God in our desert seasons, I want to ask a deeply personal question of you about Jody and Jenny Hummer Humber. Um, you dedicate the book to them. You say, thank you for your encouragement and your desire to discover the Lord in all seasons of your life. You are in our prayers. We are grateful for you and your open heartedness to us and to the Lord. Bless you as you continually draw near to him to seek his face. What is Jody and Jenny? What have they taught you about seasons where God seems distant?
00:27:44
S2: Well, you know, they this is a couple who kind of came alongside of our department, have supported us, have met with us and just you know, I was so struck by the posture as Christians who were just so open to whatever the Lord had. And, you know, oftentimes we'll have people that, that, um, thankfully, you know, want to support us and help us. And sometimes that's financial, sometimes it's other ways who, um, are really hoping for like a victory, right? They're really hoping like something big is going to happen with this. And every time I would talk to Jody and Jeannie, they would always just have such open hands with, look the Lord. The Lord's going to do what the Lord's going to do. And it's our job not to not to make things happen, but to be faithful with what he's provided us. And regardless of what happens to be to trust that that he is the Lord of this. And they've just they've been such a both a gift and a model of, you know, struggling with various things life difficulties, hard car accidents that have led to all sorts of things, but always trusting the Lord's, the Lord's here with me, that none of this is meaningless. You know, one of the things that I've seen in their life that I personally have struggled to kind of learn, I think, is that the Lord wastes nothing and that, you know, life isn't about how do I suffer? Or can I get away with not suffering? It's either an unbeliever whose suffering is meaningless, or the Christian who comes to know love in suffering because God in Christ Jesus suffered in our stead. And I, I've just as I as I grow older in the faith, I gravitate towards these folks who are older than me, who have been able to kind of.
00:29:41
S1: Your role models change.
00:29:42
S2: Those sorts of things. Yeah.
00:29:44
S1: Your role models change. What things do we turn to often instead of God?
00:29:51
S2: Well, you know, we end up listing several, but I do think there's two big umbrellas here. On the one hand, I think most Christians just become good. And so one of the things that I think the Lord shows us in the desert is that you're actually not interested in me. You're interested in having me on your own terms. And you think the way to do that is just by being good. And so moralism as we would sometimes call it, or legalism. Right. These are attempts to think that the Christian life is primarily about being good. And you know, what's interesting is in Galatians three three, Paul goes after this. He tells them, why have you begun in the spirit, but are now trying to be perfected in the flesh?
00:30:41
S1: Yeah.
00:30:42
S2: Like and, and it's amazing. The very earliest churches, the same thing happens in Corinth and as well as in colossi, like all these early churches, people immediately turn to just being good. But then on the other side of it, I think for many of us, being passionate has kind of replaced trying to be good.
00:31:03
S1: Mhm.
00:31:04
S2: And so we're in the desert and we think, I got to get out of here and the way out of here. The way to get God kind of back on my side is to pump passion in my will. And so suddenly, our spiritual life looks a lot like the coach of the football team at half time, when they're down by 20 screaming at his players. You gotta dig deep.
00:31:28
S1: Well, certainly when we don't have that, we feel like something's wrong. And if I you used a number of great examples. If I could just add one more example that I learned from you and your book. And that is and this is this was very convicting for me is, oh, no, Chris, you might be behaving like a pagan and like the prophets of Baal. And so that takes us back to first, first kings, right? Yeah. And, uh, a Elijah, many will know the story. I believe it's chapter 17, um, where Elijah comes up and is confronted with these 400 prophets of Baal. And what are they convinced of, Kyle? They're convinced if we just cut ourselves. More will get God's attention now. Many of us will look at that and say, there's no way. I mean, I'm so far from that. There's no way that I would respond or interact with God that way. But in what ways am I, Kyle? Similar maybe to Baal worshipers?
00:32:42
S2: Mhm. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I, I have found in my own life, if I just pray with a little more vigor, if I just sing a little louder, if I, if I, you know.
00:32:57
S1: And serve a little more or try a little harder.
00:33:01
S2: That's right. Give a little more. Like there's this idea. And I think one of the things that's happening in us is we're, we don't think we're doing this, but we're trying to get our hooks in God to kind of tether him to our actions. And I think with job, God is asking us to stand before the whirlwind and know I can't control this God. And that's actually good news. It's good news that I can't control this God, but I've got to first wrestle with. I don't think that's good news. That that sounds scary. Actually, it sounds out of control. And but it's only there that we can come to really trust. Know God is good and he. He's working for my good. And the difficulty is we we actually want to make this more mechanized. I think of Israel with sacrifices where they begin to think sacrifices are a way to kind of get God on their own terms, or control him or make him do what he wants. And eventually he just tells them, I don't want your sacrifices. I want a broken and a contrite heart. And that's what we need to bring to the Lord. And that's what the desert often calls us into.
00:34:12
S1: All right. Let me ask this question. Um, before we take our, our, our next break. And that is in what ways do you think the church needs to change in how we prepare people for these inevitable hard seasons?
00:34:33
S2: Yeah. I mean, I think we need to do a better job up front of kind of narrating the normality of these things. I think helping people see that we follow the Lord Jesus who prayed, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And because it's in his name that we pray. We we shouldn't be surprised when that prayer is on our lips as well. Mhm. I think we need to narrate scripture story and really help people understand. Notice Jesus is, you know, we like to go back to your earlier point. He calls Peter Satan to his face.
00:35:10
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:11
S2: This isn't a comfortable God to be in his presence. And yet that's where the good news is found. And, you know, I would say to folks, you know, in in Luke 747, Jesus tells us that the one who is forgiven little will love little. Yeah. And what that shows us is that the path of growing in love is to increasingly come to see how much you need forgiveness, and then discover the Lord's forgiveness in those places. So we don't need to be afraid of our brokenness. We don't need to be afraid of the places we need to grow and our sinfulness. But we do need to draw near to our Lord. And so any anything we find in us that leads us to ourselves rather than to God, that's a kind of idolatry that we need to lay down.
00:36:03
S1: Yeah. And the flip and reverse of that, I've often quoted Nancy Wolgemuth, who says that anything that makes us more dependent upon God is ultimately a blessing. And it's important for us to recognize that so often we, as you, as you mentioned, we want to start in faith, but we don't want to have to live a life of faith. And so that's what makes these hard seasons so disorienting. But what if I told you, friends, that there were streams in the desert? That is exactly the argument that Kyle Strobel and Joe Janco make in this incredible book when God seems distant. I can't urge you enough to get your copy. I'll simply encourage you to do what I did and. And that is to get a copy and to read it, and to allow this book to impact your soul, to challenge you, to rebuke you, correct you, to lead you to Christ, and to help you to learn the way of the Lord, um, in a more pure and sincere way. I think it'll be a blessing to your heart. I want to encourage you to get a copy. Go to our website, equip radio.org while you're there. If you'd like to partner with us, support the ministry prayerfully, financially, please do so. Dial the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. We'll be right back. Each day on equip, we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes. Your support as an equipper helps us reach more people with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call (888) 644-4144 or go online to equip. radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. It's amazing how quickly time has gone by in this conversation. We have scratched the surface. There's so much biblical truth, deep spiritual wisdom, so much intimacy with Christ in the book when God seems distant. I promise you, you will be grateful for it. And and what I also think will happen, what I already anticipate happening in my life is you'll probably give away a lot of copies. You'll probably end up ordering multiple copies and saying, man, I just gave mine away. Let me get it again and have it in my library and you'll give it again and again and again. Because you'll run into so many Christians who think that somehow God has abandoned them, or that they must have done something bad because they're in a hard season, uh, Christians who are very disoriented and confused and wondering, why do my prayers seem empty? Why does my spirituality seem desolate? Why does God feel like he's withdrawn from me? And you'll be able to say to them, friend, read something that has nourished my soul as well. Uh, Kyle Strobel is my guest today. Kyle, there's so many questions I want to ask, but maybe one that I think is important is you frame your book in sections that you title either unlearning or relearning. Why is it important for us to see discipleship not just as the process of learning the right things, but unlearning the wrong things?
00:39:54
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, that kind of framework, um, follows. So John and I are doing a series of these books, and the first book where prayer Becomes Real followed a similar trajectory of unlearning and relearning. And, you know, as I read the Gospels and I look at what it would have been like to be a disciple following Jesus, that's the framework that comes to me. They're right about a lot of things. They think Jesus is the Messiah. They think following him is better than following the Pharisees and the Sadducees and. But then they start following him and all along the way. I mean, we've we've referenced several times that section from Mark eight where Jesus calls Peter Satan. Yeah, that was right after Peter exclaimed the truth. You are the Christ, the Son of God. And then Jesus starts explaining the kind of Christ he is. I came to suffer, and I came to die and to be rejected. And Peter wants none of this. He. He's like, I didn't sign up for this. And, and all throughout we just see these experiences and, you know, and one of the things that struck me as a, you know, a lot of my academic work is in early evangelicalism and Puritanism and yeah, you know, one of the lessons I've learned from those. Kind of forefathers of the faith and for mothers of the faith at certain times is, is that most of them all say the same thing, which at the end of their life, they look back at their life and think, you know, I feel like I was a better Christian for the first 2 or 3 years. I was a Christian than I am today. That's actually a direct quote from Jonathan Edwards. And, and he's he's kind of wrestling with that in his maturity. The funny thing is, when he thought he was such a great Christian, no one else did, right? Like no one else thought he was wise or deep or holy. But now, at the end of his life, when people do think that about him, he says, I just see my sin more. I see my desperation more. But then he says, but I know I depend on God more. Today. I know that I just rest in God's sovereignty.
00:41:58
S3: Wow.
00:41:58
S2: And you know, I just found my own story in that. And just the realization that we see this in Scripture, we see I actually think the book of Jonah shows this to us. I think the book of Mark shows this. I think a lot of these books show us that God is unraveling these deep things because he he wants a heart. He does want a broken and a contrite heart. And unfortunately, in order to try to get people moving, which I think is such a danger in pastoral ministry, is to think that it's our job to get people moving rather than shepherding them to the Lord wherever he has them. And I think.
00:42:39
S3: I unpack that a little bit.
00:42:41
S1: I unpacked a little bit. What does it mean to shepherd them to the Lord?
00:42:46
S2: Well, I kind of see and again, the books try to try to kind of map this for us a little bit where I don't want to ask the question, how do I get out from where I am? I want to know God's presence wherever I am.
00:43:00
S3: So let me just say.
00:43:01
S2: Wherever you are.
00:43:02
S1: Let me just say this really quickly. What you just said is so profound. It could be a whole program. One of the things that we have to come to the reality of is that whether we are parents or pastors, we naturally have a deep love. We've been wired this way for those that we are called to shepherd lead parent. And as one mom said to me, she jokingly said, Chris, I don't even like when the wind blows hard on my kids. You know, it's this natural disposition to want to rescue them from pain and discomfort. That's natural and that's not evil. It's it's a good, uh, I think it comes from a good virtue. However, what you just said is so important, and that is that we have to shift the goal from being rescue all the time to being relationship. The goal of the Christian life is communion with Christ. It is. It is being formed into the likeness and image of God, not through formulas or processes that are false structures, but through genuine intimacy and relationship. So this is what you're pressing in on that, that I have to not automatically think, how do I rescue the person I love from grief, from hardship, from pain, from doors being shut in their face, from tears, from losses that they're experiencing. Instead of doing that, we have to be able to say, how do I help them to see the crisis closer than they think and that he is with them? And how do I help them to find him so that they might commune with him in the midst of it to me? Friend, this is the power of your book. This is what you guys have have done. What's one thing you hope people walk away with when they read? Uh. When God seems distant?
00:45:11
S2: I hope that they get a vision for love, as well as finding the Lord wherever he has them. Instead of always thinking that I've got to go somewhere else to discover him. I think this is the lesson we see all throughout Scripture. Whether it's the surprise of the prophets that God is even here in Babylon with us, or if it's the surprise of the disciples that that Christ shows up in the room with locked doors, that it was in your sin that Christ died for you. And so wherever you find yourself, turn to him. Don't, don't fix your life as if you can fix it apart from him. But draw near to your Lord.
00:45:55
S1: What a great conversation I think I can say I successfully made it through this conversation without crying. Um, but my heart has been deeply moved, and certainly our hearts burn within us as we talked about the grace of our Savior. Grace is a gift, and it is a beautiful communion with Jesus. And I want you to enjoy that communion. It is the invitation of Christ to come. My beloved, come away. Be with me. And that's what we have in this great book. Cal, thank you for the gift of when God seems distant. Friends, go to our website. Get your copy at equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. And until we're together again next time, always remember equip with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
