From Homelessness to Alternative Education Pioneer | Nicola Hepburn | EAW 60

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This file was generated by Descript
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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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I've got a dear friend, old friend here,
Nicola Hepburn from Equine Learning in
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the UK, Warwickshire, Stratford-on-Avon,
and she's one of the originals.
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She's someone who's been at it for a very
long time, even though she only looks 21.
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She's actually been getting
younger since I've, I've known her.
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It, it's a mark of how long Nicky's been
doing this, that there was even a comp-
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that she could even name a company or
find a website with equine learning in it.
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Now, you'd be hard put to find
that because everyone and their
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dog is doing equine learning.
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But back in the day, when it was
something new and pioneering Nicky was
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one of the people who was, you know, in,
in the pioneering days and has really
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made a go of it in terms of helping
people with special needs find their
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way vocationally not just as children,
not just in the early years, but into
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the job market, et cetera, et cetera.
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College, all of that.
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So she … It's really stood the test
of time, and I think we have a lot
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to learn from how she did it, and,
you know, how we can emulate it.
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So Nicky, thanks so much for coming on.
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Nicola Hepburn: Thank you for having me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's such a pleasure.
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Please tell us, you know, who are you?
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What do you do?
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Why do you do it?
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Nicola Hepburn: Okay, so, that's
quite a lot to answer in one go.
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Rupert Isaacson: Well, we've got a
few, we've got a, we've got a podcast
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in which you can answer it, so.
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Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
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Well, I started equine
learning back in 2008.
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So I'd been started a community
project prior to that in 2006 where
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I was, you know, learning about
equine-facilitated learning from 2005.
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I went on a training course.
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And it's just something that
really resonated with me.
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It was one of those moments where
I was working a corporate job
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that I wasn't really enjoying,
and I saw this training course.
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I'd recently bought a horse who I
was looking for new ways to train,
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and I started getting into a bit
of natural horsemanship which
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I guess is just horsemanship.
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I'm not sure I like the
term natural horsemanship.
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And I came across a course working with
equine-facilitated learning, and it was
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a very new thing in the UK at this point.
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And it just was like a light bulb moment.
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I just thought, "That's
really interesting.
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That's something I'd really like
to do," 'cause I was really looking
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for a career change at the time.
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And I managed to fundraise to get a place
on the training course, and I went along
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and did this initial week-long training
course in equine-facilitated learning.
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And then it was life-changing for me.
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It was just something that resonated
with me so much because I'd had ponies
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as a child, which I'd loved, and
it had been a really safe space for
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me as a child, being with my pony.
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It was never something
that I did competitively.
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It was always something that I did for
the love of it and for the feeling I got
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from being around the horses and you know,
just the connection you have with a pony.
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That was what it was always around for me.
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So I think that's why equine-facilitated
learning resonated so much because it
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was about that connection with the horse.
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Rupert Isaacson: Who, who
was organizing that course?
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And what did they teach you?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, the course
was originally organized by an
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organization which no longer
exists called Etain, and it was-
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Rupert Isaacson: Called what, sorry?
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Nicola Hepburn: Etain
Equestrian it was called.
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I d- I don't think they exist anymore.
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Etain?
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Etain, yeah.
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Etain.
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Rupert Isaacson: E-A-I-N.
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Nicola Hepburn: Etain.
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Etain.
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It was a lady named Roz.
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And the the initial course was going
to be run by one trainer, and then
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that person dropped out, and they
found a new trainer who was Sierra
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Ow- Owall, who worked quite closely
with Barbara Rector In the, in the US.
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And Barbara Rector was who ran EFMA
as it was then in America, which was
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the kind of mental health part of
NARA, which was their version of RDA.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
which is now PATH, right?
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PATH International.
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Yeah,
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Nicola Hepburn: yeah.
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Right.
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So but back then they had this separate
organization and Barbara Rector was
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one of the kind of pioneers, and I
think America were ahead of us then.
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Mm-hmm.
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There's a lot more of the equine
facilitated learning and the
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different approaches happening in
America than there was in the UK.
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I think it, we had RDA but there
wasn't a lot else going on here.
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And yeah, so this lady called Sierra
came over and she spent a week with
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us and we were at the beautiful
Unicorn Trust in Stow-on-the-Wold.
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It's an amazing venue.
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And it was just a really eye-opening
and amazing experience, amazing people.
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And we just learnt kind of the
very basics, the foundations of
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equine facilitated learning really.
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But it was, you know, like I say,
it was a light bulb moment for me.
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It was just, yeah, this is
exactly what I want to do.
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So I started then volunteering with
RDA so I could get some experience
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working with people, because prior to
this I'd spent a lot of time working
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with horses as a child, but I hadn't
really spent much time working with
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disabled or disadvantaged people.
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So I wanted to learn more about that.
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So I did go and volunteer at RDA,
and then I managed to get a job at
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a charity that worked around inclusion
and they set up a project, an equine,
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one of the first equine facilitated
learning projects in the UK.
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And I was the original project
manager on that project.
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But I quickly found that I
wanted to do my own thing, and
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I really wanted to set up…
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I had a very, you know, my own thing.
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I had a very clear idea about
creating an organization.
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Rupert Isaacson: What was that idea?
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What was that own thing that you
clearly knew you wanted to do?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think it was very
much influenced by my childhood, where
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I'd, the, the stables had been a safe
space for me, and I feel, I felt like
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I wanted to recreate that environment
that I'd had as a child where I'd been
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able to learn, where I'd felt safe,
where I'd been able to be included.
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And you know, I just, I think
it was trying to recreate a
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feeling, if that makes more sense.
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Rupert Isaacson: It does.
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Were you, so- Y- y- we, w- w- was
the vision safe space and inclusion?
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Was that … W- was it,
was it those two things?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think initially, yeah.
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Was
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Rupert Isaacson: there more?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think at that
point I, I didn't, you know, I
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didn't know as much, I wasn't as
experienced as I am now, obviously.
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So I think it was, you know-
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm
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… Nicola Hepburn: kind
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Rupert Isaacson: of- 'Cause I'd say
you do a whole lot more than that now.
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And I'd say that you, you
do create those safe spaces.
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You do create inclusion.
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But I know about your work,
and I know it's much, much more
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three-dimensional than that.
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But these things evolve, don't they?
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So w- w- was that the original
sort of simple vision, and then
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everything from there evolved?
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Yeah,
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Nicola Hepburn: I think, think the
very simple vision was that I wanted to
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provide sessions to local people, and
at this point I was actually working
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with adults as well as children.
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So when I first started it
was more adults with learning
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difficulties that I was working with.
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And I set up a community project
running out of a livery yard where I
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kept my horses, and I had I used to
hire the indoor arena, and we'd ha-
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we'd have local people come in and
I'd just spend an hour with them,
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and we'd do obstacle courses and, you
know, spend time grooming the horses.
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And I guess, you know, sensory
work, but in a different way to,
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to how Horse Boy developed it.
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And very much, very basic work with
the horses, just that interaction, that
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connection with the horse on the ground.
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And that was it.
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Mm.
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And I was working, you know, like
I say, hiring an indoor arena.
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I had two horses.
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And I was just, you know, just
set up a small community project.
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A-
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Rupert Isaacson: and what did you see?
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What did you do?
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What did you achieve in the,
that sort of early pilot project?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, with the early
pilot project it was very much a
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way of me finding my way of how
I wanted to work with people, w-
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working out what worked well, what
people enjoyed, how the sessions ran.
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Mm-hmm.
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You know, so it was very much a kind
of test project I'd say to see, you
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Rupert Isaacson: know- Yeah,
what did you offer them, and, and
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what, what were the takeaways?
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What did you observe?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, at that point,
you know, we were working with adults,
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and what we found was that they really
enjoyed working with the horses.
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They, they found it's a lot of fun.
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We found that people were engaging in
the activities and it was really holding
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people's attention, and they were finding
just being with the horse really relaxing,
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and they were able to really focus.
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And so I think that was my initial
kind of experience with engagement.
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Because now obviously when we're
talking about education, we talk
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a lot about engagement and people
being engaged in activities.
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And I think that was one of the very
first learnings for me was that the
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horses really hold people's attention.
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People are really present
when they're with the horses.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So wh- when these adults were coming
to you in the, in these early days,
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what, what sort of conditions or
dilemmas or problems were they having?
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And w- What was your offer
that gave them this engagement?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think initially
it was just it was more of just
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a, a therapeutic activity that we
were offering to adults who- But
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Rupert Isaacson: were these
adults with, with trauma?
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Were these adults- Yeah,
they were- … with autism?
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Were they adults with-
They- Were they veterans?
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You know, what were they?
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Nicola Hepburn: They were adults with
learning difficulties, neurodiversity.
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Okay.
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So they came from, like, a local
support center where they'd
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go to, like, a day center.
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Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
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Nicola Hepburn: You know, the day center
would bring them to us with support staff,
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and we would, you know, we'd do an hour
with the horses with, with the adults.
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And-
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Rupert Isaacson: Basic activities on the
ground, grooming- Grooming … leading-
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Nicola Hepburn: Obstacle courses
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… Rupert Isaacson: interacting
00:10:04.871 --> 00:10:06.011
… Nicola Hepburn:
interacting with the horse.
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So it was all very basic.
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It was all on the ground.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Nicola Hepburn: And we just found
that people were enjoying the
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sessions, and they were, they
were getting something from it.
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But it wasn't you know,
there was no riding.
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It was all very, very basic on the ground.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then I think somebody who worked with
children who were completely disengaged
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from education heard about what I was
doing, and then we started getting
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some children coming through, and it
was mostly neurodivergent young people
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who were completely out of education.
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And it was an activity to kind
of get young people re-engaged
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into something, into an activity,
but it was very much therapeutic.
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It wasn't education at this point.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So y- you now are an educator, right?
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You are an educational establishment.
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Yeah.
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You are a…
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What is, is, is the correct term in
the UK al- an alternative provision?
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Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So for those listeners and, and watchers
who are not British, basically what
00:11:06.331 --> 00:11:12.221
that means is Nicky operates effectively
an alternative to school for people
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who have difficulty, or are refusing,
or can't, or whatever, go to school.
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And then at Nicky's place, at Equine
Learning in Warwickshire, they can learn,
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sit exams, take vocational courses, and
in some cases even get off to college.
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So that's a huge evolution from groups
of adults with learning difficulties
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coming from a, a daycare center to-
designing and operating full curriculums
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for people who, young people who are
then gonna go on and get qualifications
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through you, which will allow them to
then enter the workforce and so on.
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Talk us now through what you do.
00:11:55.699 --> 00:11:57.539
How do you, how do you,
how do you organize this?
00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.239
How do you offer this?
00:11:58.239 --> 00:12:01.239
How do you, how do you take someone who's
like, "I'm not going to school and I hate
00:12:01.239 --> 00:12:05.249
school and I hate learning, and you can
all bog off," to "Okay, I'm gonna sit
00:12:05.249 --> 00:12:08.889
my exams," and where am I gonna sit my
exams and how am I gonna sit my exams?
00:12:08.889 --> 00:12:10.859
And then get off to college.
00:12:10.859 --> 00:12:12.839
How do you do this work?
00:12:12.839 --> 00:12:19.629
How do you take somebody from that almost
nihilistic space and bring them along?
00:12:20.853 --> 00:12:23.493
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the
qualifications that we do are
00:12:24.493 --> 00:12:25.923
mostly equine qualifications.
00:12:25.933 --> 00:12:28.463
So we already have people
who are interested in horses.
00:12:28.893 --> 00:12:29.623
Mm-hmm.
00:12:29.623 --> 00:12:32.583
So, you know, we already have something
that interests the young person.
00:12:32.583 --> 00:12:36.213
So I think finding something
that interests them is, you know,
00:12:36.223 --> 00:12:37.533
is … That's the key point.
00:12:37.543 --> 00:12:42.263
So if somebody's completely disengaged
from education, you know, from the
00:12:42.263 --> 00:12:45.673
research I did for my masters was
very much around, around this, about
00:12:45.683 --> 00:12:48.643
how do we re-engage young people, and
one of the first things is finding
00:12:48.643 --> 00:12:50.013
something they're interested in.
00:12:50.393 --> 00:12:51.223
Mm-hmm.
00:12:51.443 --> 00:12:53.473
So we're, we're very lucky that
we have the horses, because people
00:12:53.493 --> 00:12:56.663
tend to be very interested in
horses before they come to us.
00:12:57.093 --> 00:13:01.423
And then, you know, we work, we work in a
person-centered way with each individual.
00:13:01.483 --> 00:13:05.913
So for, for some people they might
need to start by coming one hour a
00:13:05.913 --> 00:13:07.713
week and just get used to where we are.
00:13:07.713 --> 00:13:11.543
For some people they might need me to go
around their house and meet them before
00:13:11.543 --> 00:13:13.703
they will even step foot on the premises.
00:13:13.713 --> 00:13:17.073
They might need to come and sit in
the car for half an hour and then
00:13:17.073 --> 00:13:19.743
drive home, and then come back the
next day and get out of the car for 10
00:13:19.743 --> 00:13:21.063
minutes, then get back in and go home.
00:13:21.063 --> 00:13:22.763
It really depends on the individual.
00:13:23.123 --> 00:13:25.793
'Cause some people you know, we
have to do quite a lot of transition
00:13:25.793 --> 00:13:28.513
work before we can even get
them onto an education program.
00:13:28.513 --> 00:13:30.993
So it's about creating the
right environment for, for
00:13:30.993 --> 00:13:32.543
each individual young person.
00:13:32.823 --> 00:13:33.223
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:13:33.313 --> 00:13:38.383
Nicola Hepburn: And from there really
the qualification side you know, we offer
00:13:38.383 --> 00:13:39.533
them something they're interested in.
00:13:39.533 --> 00:13:41.853
So if they're interested in horses,
they can learn about horses,
00:13:41.863 --> 00:13:44.873
and they can do a qualification
that covers all kinds of things.
00:13:44.883 --> 00:13:47.283
So it will cover animal care,
it will cover feeding, it will
00:13:47.293 --> 00:13:51.513
cover you know, grooming, it will
cover tacking up, it will cover…
00:13:51.563 --> 00:13:54.013
Some of them have riding as
part of the qualification.
00:13:54.373 --> 00:13:57.263
So but they're learning
other things within that.
00:13:57.293 --> 00:14:00.383
So you know, there are transferable
skills within those qualifications.
00:14:00.383 --> 00:14:03.293
So the qualifications that we offer
are all work-based, so they're
00:14:03.293 --> 00:14:05.443
assessed through coursework.
00:14:05.513 --> 00:14:09.203
We don't do any exams, which is another
really important part for some of-
00:14:09.203 --> 00:14:09.523
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
00:14:09.563 --> 00:14:13.143
So the way that they effectively pass
their exams is by not sitting exams,
00:14:13.443 --> 00:14:15.513
but by being assessed as they go along.
00:14:15.823 --> 00:14:16.073
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:14:16.073 --> 00:14:16.293
Right.
00:14:16.293 --> 00:14:17.283
So there's, there's the…
00:14:17.293 --> 00:14:20.103
It's half practical and half theoretical.
00:14:20.103 --> 00:14:21.723
And so there is an
element of written work.
00:14:21.733 --> 00:14:24.423
But for some young people, if they,
if they really struggle with written
00:14:24.423 --> 00:14:28.083
work, we will scribe for them, or
we'll collect evidence in a, in a
00:14:28.083 --> 00:14:29.903
way that works for that individual.
00:14:30.473 --> 00:14:30.893
Right.
00:14:30.903 --> 00:14:32.963
So and then we have
done maths and English.
00:14:32.973 --> 00:14:35.083
You know, we do maths and English
functional skills with young
00:14:35.083 --> 00:14:38.413
people as well, and that does
involve sitting an exam, but we
00:14:38.413 --> 00:14:39.863
would invigilate that ourselves.
00:14:39.863 --> 00:14:42.353
They'd sit an exam in a room
they're comfortable in at, at
00:14:42.503 --> 00:14:44.033
our facility with our staff.
00:14:44.033 --> 00:14:48.423
So it's very, it's managed in a way
that really works around their needs.
00:14:49.023 --> 00:14:50.883
Rupert Isaacson: So that- And if they
do sit that exam, do they sit that exam
00:14:50.913 --> 00:14:53.283
on your farm, or do you go to- Yeah.
00:14:53.363 --> 00:14:53.683
Okay.
00:14:54.143 --> 00:14:56.733
So they could do that with the
horses and the ducks wandering by
00:14:57.489 --> 00:15:00.759
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah, we tend to
do it in the in the learning space that
00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:04.229
we have because yeah, it's you know,
it's a little less distracting in there.
00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.909
But if they really needed to do
it on the yard with the animals,
00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:07.929
that would be absolutely fine.
00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:09.839
They can have animals- Okay … with
them in the room, you know.
00:15:09.979 --> 00:15:12.079
We try and do it in a way where
it's very person-centered.
00:15:12.089 --> 00:15:13.959
Rupert Isaacson: Gosh, I wish
I'd done my exams that way.
00:15:14.189 --> 00:15:16.819
You know, I was just a- afraid
of being beaten, basically.
00:15:17.459 --> 00:15:17.479
Yeah.
00:15:18.749 --> 00:15:22.339
Sitting there, sitting there in
an overly hot, stuffy exam hall
00:15:22.619 --> 00:15:25.649
where we were expected to be
stressed, and we were expected to
00:15:26.069 --> 00:15:27.369
deal with the stress, you know.
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:29.329
It, it's interesting how
far things have come.
00:15:29.709 --> 00:15:32.759
You know, w- what are the success
stories that you've seen with
00:15:32.829 --> 00:15:34.229
people going through this process?
00:15:34.229 --> 00:15:35.839
What … Give us some examples.
00:15:36.449 --> 00:15:38.439
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we've worked
with, with young people who've come to
00:15:38.439 --> 00:15:41.169
us where they've been disengaged from
school for some time due to health
00:15:41.169 --> 00:15:45.889
issues or due to being a school refuser
or being neurodivergent, not being
00:15:45.889 --> 00:15:47.099
able to cope in a school environment.
00:15:47.149 --> 00:15:51.369
And we've got several young people through
level two and level three qualifications.
00:15:51.379 --> 00:15:57.149
With one young person, she completed her
level two, her level three, her maths and
00:15:57.149 --> 00:15:58.789
her English, and went on to university.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.819
With other young people, they've come
and studied courses with us and then
00:16:01.819 --> 00:16:05.419
gone on to other establishments to do
further study or gone into the workplace.
00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:09.589
But the qualifications offer
things like part, you know, part
00:16:09.589 --> 00:16:12.359
of the qualification might be a
module around working as a team.
00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:15.939
So it's not all necessarily horse
work or learn to work with others
00:16:15.939 --> 00:16:20.099
or understanding professional skills
like timekeeping and, you know,
00:16:20.109 --> 00:16:21.639
being able to work with other people.
00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:25.749
So it's … The qualifications are
a bit broader than just horses.
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.569
So somebody could come and do
a qualification with us, and it
00:16:28.569 --> 00:16:30.769
would give them a qualification
at that level that they could then
00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:32.839
go on to study something else.
00:16:32.849 --> 00:16:36.359
So, yeah, so the young people that
come to us tend to go on to something
00:16:36.359 --> 00:16:37.819
else or go into the workplace.
00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:40.349
Rupert Isaacson: And how long
do they tend to stay with you?
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:41.959
What's the average time?
00:16:42.829 --> 00:16:45.409
Nicola Hepburn: Well, it's quite a long
time, actually, 'cause we take a really
00:16:45.409 --> 00:16:48.819
long time to do the qualifications 'cause
we work at the pace of the student.
00:16:48.849 --> 00:16:53.039
So where they might go into college and
do the same qualification in a year,
00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:55.269
we might do it over two academic years.
00:16:55.939 --> 00:16:56.179
Okay.
00:16:56.179 --> 00:16:59.849
So w- w- it, you know, they tend to be
with us for two to three years normally.
00:17:01.089 --> 00:17:03.429
Rupert Isaacson: So, don't know
why it's giving me a thumbs down.
00:17:03.429 --> 00:17:05.769
I think it saw me do this
on the side of my face.
00:17:05.809 --> 00:17:06.869
I better do this quickly.
00:17:07.389 --> 00:17:09.729
Let's see if it reacts to that.
00:17:09.729 --> 00:17:10.649
Why doesn't it react to that?
00:17:10.709 --> 00:17:11.009
Okay.
00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:11.329
Weird.
00:17:11.709 --> 00:17:13.369
But okay.
00:17:13.469 --> 00:17:18.229
The young people that come to you then,
you're with them for a while, so you
00:17:18.249 --> 00:17:23.579
know that when somebody walks through
your door, you're going to be with this
00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:25.979
person for hundreds of hours, right?
00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:27.139
It's not gonna be…
00:17:27.809 --> 00:17:31.729
It's, it's, it's gonna be quite a
sort of intimate relationship in a
00:17:31.729 --> 00:17:34.549
way because you're gonna spend so
much time in each other's company.
00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:41.789
How do you try to ensure that it's
a personality fit in that case?
00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:43.749
Like, okay, couple of questions.
00:17:43.749 --> 00:17:47.639
What, what's the sort of number
of these young people that you
00:17:47.639 --> 00:17:49.779
would serve at any one time?
00:17:50.861 --> 00:17:58.211
And how do you make sure that it's
a fit as much as you can before
00:17:58.211 --> 00:18:02.341
you dive into this rather, you
know, immersive process with them?
00:18:03.101 --> 00:18:06.461
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the, the number
of students we have on the education
00:18:06.461 --> 00:18:08.521
program at any one time is six.
00:18:08.521 --> 00:18:10.491
That's our maximum number
per day for the education-
00:18:10.491 --> 00:18:11.781
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so it's really boutique.
00:18:12.041 --> 00:18:14.551
Nicola Hepburn: It's really tiny,
but obviously we do have other
00:18:14.551 --> 00:18:16.161
projects that we run alongside that.
00:18:16.161 --> 00:18:19.801
So we do our kind of one-hour mental
health sessions, and then we have, like,
00:18:19.821 --> 00:18:23.201
holiday clubs and other things, and then
we do private work with families as well.
00:18:23.201 --> 00:18:23.571
Mm-hmm.
00:18:23.571 --> 00:18:26.211
So the education program is
only one part of what we do.
00:18:27.051 --> 00:18:31.051
But the education program specifically,
we only work with six at a time maximum.
00:18:31.061 --> 00:18:32.511
It's normally less than that.
00:18:32.961 --> 00:18:33.401
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
00:18:33.821 --> 00:18:34.051
Nicola Hepburn: In…
00:18:34.251 --> 00:18:39.011
Before we work with the young people, we
get sent their education and healthcare
00:18:39.011 --> 00:18:43.971
plan from the local authority, and we
would go through that and, you know, and
00:18:43.981 --> 00:18:46.271
see if we can meet the needs in, that…
00:18:46.271 --> 00:18:47.241
laid out in the plan.
00:18:47.641 --> 00:18:51.201
And we would meet people normally before
they would come, and we'd have discussions
00:18:51.201 --> 00:18:54.661
with families, and, and then we'd say
if we can offer them a place or not.
00:18:54.701 --> 00:18:57.951
So we, we try, and we don't
always get it right, you know.
00:18:57.951 --> 00:19:02.071
It can be that sometimes somebody
might come and they might, we might
00:19:02.071 --> 00:19:04.061
not be the right provider for them.
00:19:04.451 --> 00:19:09.621
But the only way we can really find that
out sometimes is by giving it a go, you
00:19:09.621 --> 00:19:11.101
know- Mm … and enabling them to come.
00:19:11.101 --> 00:19:14.721
Maybe start with a few sm-
shorter sessions first you know,
00:19:15.011 --> 00:19:19.101
and see, see how they, see how
they get on with everybody else.
00:19:19.701 --> 00:19:20.921
Rupert Isaacson: And,
and how is it funded?
00:19:21.061 --> 00:19:21.231
How…
00:19:22.401 --> 00:19:26.731
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we, we do private
work for, for sessions, but for the…
00:19:26.741 --> 00:19:29.873
The majority of our work is funded
through the local authority.
00:19:29.873 --> 00:19:30.041
So the local authority-
00:19:30.041 --> 00:19:31.081
Rupert Isaacson: Education authority.
00:19:31.551 --> 00:19:31.931
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:19:31.991 --> 00:19:37.551
So they will refer young people to
us who, you know, they, they feel
00:19:37.551 --> 00:19:41.091
could benefit from coming to our more
therapeutic education environment.
00:19:41.131 --> 00:19:45.581
But we tend to work with post 16, so they
tend to be 16 and above at that point.
00:19:46.101 --> 00:19:48.671
We do work with younger students,
but they would come to us
00:19:48.671 --> 00:19:50.001
on a very part-time basis.
00:19:50.001 --> 00:19:53.151
They would be on roll at school, and
they might come to us a couple of
00:19:53.161 --> 00:19:55.131
afternoons a week or one day a week.
00:19:55.621 --> 00:19:57.931
Okay … they, they, they're
not with us full time.
00:19:57.931 --> 00:20:00.121
We only work full time with post 16.
00:20:00.731 --> 00:20:05.361
Rupert Isaacson: And the, this, these six
at any one time, post 16s, who are going
00:20:05.361 --> 00:20:09.711
through these qualifications with you,
is that the bulk of the bread and butter
00:20:10.271 --> 00:20:14.311
of your funding, and is that the bulk of
your time and the other things are more
00:20:14.311 --> 00:20:16.461
peripheral, or is it, like, a half/half?
00:20:16.461 --> 00:20:20.411
The reason I ask is, you know, as someone
who runs programs myself, I'm always a bit
00:20:20.411 --> 00:20:24.901
fascinated as to how people organize it,
you know, and every single place has its
00:20:24.901 --> 00:20:27.741
own economy and ecosystem, if you like.
00:20:27.841 --> 00:20:32.037
And I think one of the- points
about doing this podcast is that a
00:20:32.037 --> 00:20:34.367
lot of the people who are listening
are people who run programs.
00:20:34.667 --> 00:20:38.267
And we're all fascinated about
how everyone else does it
00:20:38.317 --> 00:20:39.467
because it always gives us ideas.
00:20:39.707 --> 00:20:46.137
So would you say that the bulk of the
money that funds the program comes
00:20:46.137 --> 00:20:50.507
from that alternative education piece
with that sort of boutique number of
00:20:50.507 --> 00:20:54.457
people, and the rest is sort of somewhat
peripheral, or is it the other way around?
00:20:55.315 --> 00:20:58.095
Nicola Hepburn: I'd say at the
moment the bulk of our, our income
00:20:58.095 --> 00:21:00.645
does come through the alternative
education work, absolutely.
00:21:01.335 --> 00:21:05.505
But that has, that has been quite a
conscious choice and a development
00:21:05.625 --> 00:21:06.895
within the- Mm-hmm … business.
00:21:06.895 --> 00:21:07.965
It used to be that way.
00:21:08.215 --> 00:21:11.615
I used to run a riding center
in addition to the therapeutic
00:21:11.615 --> 00:21:13.895
work to pay the bills, you know.
00:21:13.895 --> 00:21:18.085
So we've, but we've now really run down
the, the riding school side of things,
00:21:18.085 --> 00:21:23.125
and we're very much now doing mostly
therapeutic work and sessions, and we do
00:21:23.135 --> 00:21:25.485
a very small amount of pony club as well.
00:21:25.765 --> 00:21:25.795
But
00:21:26.165 --> 00:21:26.265
Rupert Isaacson: every- Right
00:21:26.895 --> 00:21:30.365
… Nicola Hepburn: is very much the
education is, is probably the
00:21:30.375 --> 00:21:31.205
largest part of the business.
00:21:31.295 --> 00:21:33.865
Rupert Isaacson: And is that a
recent thing that education, is-
00:21:33.865 --> 00:21:35.105
we're talking in the UK here.
00:21:35.805 --> 00:21:41.295
Is this a recent thing that there has
been this kind of budget in educational
00:21:41.305 --> 00:21:45.715
authorities that a relatively small number
of people being worked with intensively
00:21:45.715 --> 00:21:52.255
like this could actually, you know,
pay a bunch of staff and keep a, you
00:21:52.255 --> 00:21:53.725
know, an alternative provision going?
00:21:53.955 --> 00:21:55.275
Or has that sort of always been there?
00:21:55.425 --> 00:21:58.685
Because it seems to me that when I
first met you back in the early 2000s,
00:21:59.755 --> 00:22:01.315
you didn't hear so much about this.
00:22:01.315 --> 00:22:04.625
It seems that this is something
that sort of evolved over time.
00:22:04.695 --> 00:22:05.665
Would that be right?
00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:07.125
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I would say so.
00:22:07.125 --> 00:22:11.045
I think you know, I'm thinking back to
when I first met you, we were very much
00:22:11.045 --> 00:22:13.375
then running, you know, riding lessons.
00:22:13.525 --> 00:22:17.295
We were doing the therapeutic
sessions, and we were doing
00:22:17.565 --> 00:22:19.045
camps and things like that.
00:22:19.065 --> 00:22:22.305
And that was very much, and the work
with the local authority was there,
00:22:22.305 --> 00:22:26.155
but it was on a much smaller basis,
and we had- Mm-hmm … sessions.
00:22:26.665 --> 00:22:29.425
I think there were other projects
that were perhaps having more work
00:22:29.425 --> 00:22:32.085
with the local authority then,
but we, we definitely weren't.
00:22:32.335 --> 00:22:36.035
I would say this is something that has
evolved, but we've had to tender for the
00:22:36.035 --> 00:22:38.015
work we have with the local authority.
00:22:38.345 --> 00:22:42.405
So the, the tendering system is where
they will, you know, the, the local
00:22:42.405 --> 00:22:45.885
authority will put out a tender on,
on, on a online portal, and you have
00:22:45.885 --> 00:22:47.285
to actually write a bit for the work.
00:22:47.575 --> 00:22:48.315
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see.
00:22:48.705 --> 00:22:49.925
Nicola Hepburn: So it's not the-
00:22:49.985 --> 00:22:51.915
Rupert Isaacson: Almost like
you're a builder offering, you
00:22:51.915 --> 00:22:54.655
know, do- Okay … putting the
roof on the town hall type thing.
00:22:54.935 --> 00:22:55.255
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:22:55.255 --> 00:22:59.435
So the, you have to know where to look for
the projects, and then you write a tender,
00:23:00.035 --> 00:23:02.025
you know, to try and meet those needs.
00:23:02.055 --> 00:23:05.325
So if it's, like, education for
young people, you know, you would
00:23:05.325 --> 00:23:07.935
then write a tender and, and
bid to the local authority, and
00:23:07.935 --> 00:23:09.095
then they can choose you or not.
00:23:09.095 --> 00:23:11.015
So you have to be able
to meet their criteria.
00:23:11.015 --> 00:23:11.135
And
00:23:11.135 --> 00:23:12.525
Rupert Isaacson: we have- And
how do you learn, how do you
00:23:12.525 --> 00:23:13.905
learn how to write those tenders?
00:23:13.905 --> 00:23:15.685
I mean, that's a fairly
specialist thing, no?
00:23:16.275 --> 00:23:16.525
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:23:16.525 --> 00:23:19.365
Well, I think, you know, obviously
when I was younger, I did work
00:23:19.375 --> 00:23:23.255
for a national charity as fundra-
Okay … marketing briefly, and
00:23:23.255 --> 00:23:24.735
that, that did really help me.
00:23:24.735 --> 00:23:27.665
That gave me skills, and it gave
me an understanding of how the
00:23:27.665 --> 00:23:29.275
tendering systems and charities work.
00:23:29.635 --> 00:23:34.639
So I think I was able to, to learn
some of those skills then but I
00:23:34.639 --> 00:23:36.059
think really anybody can do it.
00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:40.009
It's just about being able to know
that the work is there, know how to
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:44.229
tender, and then, you know, learn to
answer the questions in a way that meet
00:23:44.239 --> 00:23:45.749
the criteria that they're looking for.
00:23:45.749 --> 00:23:47.559
So it's about reading
what the criteria is.
00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.969
It's the same kind of thing as doing a
funding application where you read the
00:23:50.969 --> 00:23:52.979
criteria, what is it they're looking for?
00:23:53.219 --> 00:23:54.019
Can we meet this?
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:55.179
How are we gonna meet this?
00:23:55.199 --> 00:23:58.989
And making sure that you're wording
it in a way that meets the criteria.
00:24:00.089 --> 00:24:00.579
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
00:24:01.489 --> 00:24:03.309
That's a, as you say, that's a skill.
00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:07.859
And you know, when, when I was first
starting in this work, it was all about
00:24:08.629 --> 00:24:13.409
either getting donations or grant writing
or providing services through, through,
00:24:13.709 --> 00:24:15.589
you know, which people paid directly.
00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:17.529
All the stuff that you
described in the early years.
00:24:18.939 --> 00:24:19.349
Did you…
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.749
When you became aware that there
were these tenders what was
00:24:23.749 --> 00:24:25.469
the learning process for you?
00:24:25.469 --> 00:24:27.909
I, I think people listening to
this will be fascinated 'cause
00:24:27.909 --> 00:24:30.549
it's a bit like a tutor- Let's
say this podcast was a tutorial.
00:24:30.549 --> 00:24:36.379
You're giving a tutorial now
on how you locate and then bid.
00:24:37.349 --> 00:24:38.089
Talk us through that.
00:24:38.129 --> 00:24:42.579
How, how do you locate these tenders,
and then how do you put your tender in?
00:24:43.129 --> 00:24:45.179
Nicola Hepburn: Well, each local
authority will have a tendering
00:24:45.179 --> 00:24:46.909
portal for, for everything.
00:24:46.919 --> 00:24:50.279
Like you were saying for the building
work, for, for anything that they're
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:52.309
tendering for, there will be a
portal for each local authority.
00:24:52.609 --> 00:24:54.979
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you
would, let's say it was me and I was
00:24:54.989 --> 00:24:56.849
starting off in Warwickshire like you.
00:24:56.849 --> 00:24:57.219
Yeah.
00:24:57.219 --> 00:25:02.939
I would go on the, my local
education authority website and
00:25:02.949 --> 00:25:04.359
look for, what would I type in?
00:25:05.537 --> 00:25:08.157
Nicola Hepburn: I think you would
just put in like, local authority
00:25:08.587 --> 00:25:13.217
tendering portal or tendering
opportunities- Okay … and that would
00:25:13.217 --> 00:25:15.137
lead you onto the tendering portal.
00:25:15.447 --> 00:25:18.977
And there you would register an
account, and then you can, you can ex-
00:25:19.027 --> 00:25:22.527
put in an expression of interest for
any projects that are available that
00:25:22.697 --> 00:25:24.087
you're interested in tendering for.
00:25:24.717 --> 00:25:28.807
But sometimes the local authority
might contact organizations as well.
00:25:29.237 --> 00:25:32.477
So you know, for example, the mental
health sessions that we do, they
00:25:32.477 --> 00:25:35.007
actually contacted us and said,
"We're putting this tender out.
00:25:35.007 --> 00:25:37.007
Would you like to bid for it?"
00:25:37.007 --> 00:25:38.712
But obviously we're already known to
the local authority at this point.
00:25:38.712 --> 00:25:38.757
Right.
00:25:38.757 --> 00:25:43.657
So I think it's about getting
your foot in the door with local
00:25:43.657 --> 00:25:46.897
authorities as well and meeting, you
know, speaking to the right people.
00:25:47.257 --> 00:25:48.227
So I think it, for an organization-
00:25:48.677 --> 00:25:49.717
Rupert Isaacson: How do
you, how do you do that?
00:25:49.777 --> 00:25:50.527
How, how do you reach…
00:25:50.527 --> 00:25:51.827
How do you even know who to reach out to?
00:25:52.257 --> 00:25:54.537
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think if it was
somebody who's interested specifically
00:25:54.537 --> 00:25:58.767
in working with young people, you know,
you could contact Children's Services and
00:25:58.767 --> 00:26:00.447
say, you know, "We're an organization.
00:26:00.457 --> 00:26:01.367
This is what we're doing.
00:26:01.367 --> 00:26:03.007
Can you put me in touch with somebody?"
00:26:03.337 --> 00:26:06.007
You know, and, and make
an introduction that way.
00:26:06.007 --> 00:26:09.657
But very much the, the tendering process
is about looking online, seeing what
00:26:09.657 --> 00:26:13.927
the, what's available, and then just,
you know, asking for all the paperwork
00:26:13.927 --> 00:26:14.987
and reading it very, very carefully.
00:26:15.937 --> 00:26:20.497
And then being realistic as well, because
I think at times I put in for tenders
00:26:20.497 --> 00:26:24.797
that we weren't ready for, you know,
with local authorities when we were,
00:26:25.137 --> 00:26:26.907
when we were a much younger organization.
00:26:26.907 --> 00:26:27.577
I would tender for…
00:26:27.727 --> 00:26:29.317
You know, there were
tenders that I didn't get.
00:26:29.337 --> 00:26:35.067
So I think you have to be prepared to
maybe not necessarily get every one,
00:26:35.127 --> 00:26:40.147
and just learn from the process and,
you know, tender for things that are
00:26:40.147 --> 00:26:42.617
really, you really can deliver as well.
00:26:43.007 --> 00:26:44.417
Rupert Isaacson: Are there
always tenders going out?
00:26:44.437 --> 00:26:47.487
Like, or do you sometimes go on
that website and there are none?
00:26:48.517 --> 00:26:49.327
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah.
00:26:49.327 --> 00:26:52.427
I mean, th- they're not always
ones that we would be suitable for.
00:26:52.957 --> 00:26:53.257
So- But
00:26:53.257 --> 00:26:55.167
Rupert Isaacson: there's always
something being tendered for?
00:26:55.507 --> 00:26:57.537
Nicola Hepburn: There's usually
something being tendered for, yeah.
00:26:57.537 --> 00:26:57.567
Okay.
00:26:57.717 --> 00:27:00.627
'Cause some of them are residential, so
there may be other organizations that have
00:27:00.627 --> 00:27:05.777
residential opportunities and could do,
you know, short breaks or respite or…
00:27:06.447 --> 00:27:09.767
There's lots of other opportunities,
but it's just about finding the ones
00:27:09.767 --> 00:27:13.047
that are relevant to your specific
organization that you can deliver.
00:27:13.697 --> 00:27:13.977
Rupert Isaacson: Have you…
00:27:14.017 --> 00:27:17.497
Can you just give us a couple of examples
about where you went wrong with that?
00:27:17.577 --> 00:27:21.477
Like, y- y- you said there were some you
didn't get, but I could also imagine you
00:27:21.557 --> 00:27:26.027
might get one and then have, "Oh dear,
I guess I can't really deliver this."
00:27:26.077 --> 00:27:27.997
Like, I'm sure both things could happen.
00:27:28.397 --> 00:27:32.403
Could you talk us through- Any
times that that has happened to
00:27:32.403 --> 00:27:33.763
you and, and kind of what you did.
00:27:33.863 --> 00:27:34.993
How did you retrieve that?
00:27:35.553 --> 00:27:38.803
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I put in a
big tender quite early on with a, a
00:27:38.873 --> 00:27:42.123
local authority that wasn't our local
authority, but was a neighboring
00:27:42.373 --> 00:27:45.083
local authority that was very close
to the first yard that we had.
00:27:45.913 --> 00:27:51.943
And it was for short breaks for children,
and I, I did spend a long time writing
00:27:51.943 --> 00:27:56.053
that tender, but in the end they came
back to us and said, "Well, because you're
00:27:56.053 --> 00:27:58.853
just out of county, we're not gonna use
you 'cause we only wanna use projects
00:27:58.863 --> 00:28:00.503
that are within our county boundaries."
00:28:00.823 --> 00:28:05.205
So had I asked that question-
prior to submitting the tender, it
00:28:05.205 --> 00:28:06.720
would have saved me a lot of work.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.052
Mm.
00:28:07.052 --> 00:28:07.384
Rupert Isaacson: But,
00:28:07.384 --> 00:28:09.755
Nicola Hepburn: but going through
the process and writing it in
00:28:09.755 --> 00:28:11.265
itself was a useful exercise.
00:28:11.275 --> 00:28:11.305
Right.
00:28:11.315 --> 00:28:13.365
So I didn't see it as a wasted exercise.
00:28:13.785 --> 00:28:16.555
But you've got to remember, by this
point I was already fundraising.
00:28:16.615 --> 00:28:20.115
You know, the center we have
now, obviously I fundraised
00:28:20.395 --> 00:28:20.795
for all the facilities.
00:28:21.235 --> 00:28:26.745
So, you know, writing bids and, and
being tenacious is really important
00:28:26.765 --> 00:28:30.035
because y- you're not gonna get
everything straight away, and you've
00:28:30.035 --> 00:28:33.505
got to have absolute faith that
if you keep going, that you will.
00:28:33.585 --> 00:28:36.975
You know, you will get funding, and
you will get tenders, but you just
00:28:36.975 --> 00:28:40.675
have to, you know, meet the criteria,
and it has to be the right one.
00:28:40.685 --> 00:28:40.695
Mm.
00:28:41.165 --> 00:28:44.195
My advice to anybody would be,
you know, be tenacious about it.
00:28:44.845 --> 00:28:48.705
Don't give up at the first hurdle
because this is a, a hard industry to
00:28:48.705 --> 00:28:53.555
work in, and it takes a lot of hard work
to, to get funding and to get tenders.
00:28:53.555 --> 00:28:57.215
But once you do, it really does
make a difference to being able to
00:28:57.215 --> 00:28:58.775
deliver with the local authority.
00:28:58.775 --> 00:29:01.105
Makes a big difference to
how your organization runs.
00:29:01.815 --> 00:29:03.855
Rupert Isaacson: Did you ever get
a tender and then realize you'd
00:29:03.855 --> 00:29:05.045
bitten off more than you could chew?
00:29:05.875 --> 00:29:06.725
Nicola Hepburn: I'm gonna say no.
00:29:08.505 --> 00:29:12.035
I, I've got tenders and then realized
it's a lot more administration
00:29:12.035 --> 00:29:13.815
than I realized it was going to be.
00:29:13.815 --> 00:29:18.245
Because obviously when you're, when
you're accountable for public money
00:29:18.575 --> 00:29:21.675
and the, the local authority are
paying you for services, there's a huge
00:29:21.675 --> 00:29:23.325
amount of admin that comes with them.
00:29:23.335 --> 00:29:23.555
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
00:29:23.555 --> 00:29:26.125
Nicola Hepburn: So where you're running
sessions with local families and they're
00:29:26.125 --> 00:29:29.985
paying you, you know, you might have a
bit of paperwork to fill in with them,
00:29:30.625 --> 00:29:35.865
but y- and you might keep some monitoring,
you know, progress and things like that.
00:29:35.865 --> 00:29:39.525
But with the local authority,
it's much more intense because you
00:29:39.525 --> 00:29:42.105
have to be able to prove that what
you're doing is making a difference.
00:29:42.115 --> 00:29:42.135
Mm-hmm.
00:29:42.135 --> 00:29:44.675
So they want to see a lot of feedback.
00:29:44.675 --> 00:29:46.285
They want to see feedback
from the families.
00:29:46.285 --> 00:29:46.755
They want to…
00:29:47.025 --> 00:29:49.735
You know, they've got to justify
how they're spending their money.
00:29:50.115 --> 00:29:52.825
So you have to be able to meet
their administration needs and
00:29:52.825 --> 00:29:54.015
say, "Yes, this is what we've done.
00:29:54.015 --> 00:29:55.095
This is how well we've done.
00:29:55.095 --> 00:30:00.295
This is what's worked," you know,
and be able to deliver good quality
00:30:00.325 --> 00:30:02.365
provision that's worth their while.
00:30:03.415 --> 00:30:05.955
Rupert Isaacson: I think for a lot of
people, yeah, I, I, I've certainly found
00:30:05.955 --> 00:30:10.845
this when I was working a lot in Texas I
didn't really go out to local authorities.
00:30:10.845 --> 00:30:14.675
I didn't really let people
know so much that I was…
00:30:14.675 --> 00:30:15.715
I did a little bit, you know.
00:30:15.735 --> 00:30:16.895
I went to our local school.
00:30:16.895 --> 00:30:19.335
I did a couple of things like that.
00:30:19.335 --> 00:30:22.375
But because there was no public
money really available, I think
00:30:22.375 --> 00:30:27.295
it may have changed now I did all
my fundraising sort of grassroots.
00:30:27.695 --> 00:30:31.915
And then gradually of course
organizations contacted us and said,
00:30:31.965 --> 00:30:36.785
"Oh, you know, we're this foster
care thing," or, "We're this first
00:30:36.865 --> 00:30:40.195
responders organization," or, "We're
this," you know, "We have this need.
00:30:40.195 --> 00:30:42.065
Can you, can you do it?"
00:30:42.115 --> 00:30:45.215
And we would- generally say yes.
00:30:45.315 --> 00:30:47.855
Partly because we have a
lot of trouble saying no.
00:30:48.215 --> 00:30:50.225
But also because we were curious.
00:30:50.325 --> 00:30:53.425
And in a funny way, I think
we were willing to fail.
00:30:53.765 --> 00:30:54.675
I, I do think…
00:30:54.885 --> 00:30:57.315
I guess that's what I was driving
at with, with those questions.
00:30:57.325 --> 00:30:59.265
I, I
00:31:01.441 --> 00:31:05.901
Worry that sometimes when I'm giving
trainings to people in, you know, our
00:31:05.901 --> 00:31:11.461
qualifications, Horse Boy Method and
Movement Method and TAKIN, that people
00:31:11.501 --> 00:31:16.091
are naturally from a very good place,
very, very anxious to get it right.
00:31:16.761 --> 00:31:20.411
And of course, this isn't
always gonna happen.
00:31:20.921 --> 00:31:24.581
And as you say, you know, sometimes
when you don't get something,
00:31:24.771 --> 00:31:25.981
it's a good learning process.
00:31:25.981 --> 00:31:30.301
But also sometimes when you sort
of get your ass handed to you by a
00:31:30.301 --> 00:31:34.961
particular individual or a particular
child or a particular situation, it
00:31:34.971 --> 00:31:37.091
deepens, of course, your practice.
00:31:37.171 --> 00:31:40.201
And the next time-- And you go away
and you think about it, and you talk it
00:31:40.201 --> 00:31:42.251
through with your team and, and so on.
00:31:42.281 --> 00:31:48.241
And I think for a lot of people that are
listening to this show, a lot of them
00:31:48.431 --> 00:31:51.631
have been through that process or are
going through that process or perhaps
00:31:51.631 --> 00:31:54.911
are on the cusp of that process and sort
of, you know, nervously putting their
00:31:54.911 --> 00:31:58.431
toe in the first waters of watching the
sharks swim, you know, in front of them.
00:31:58.881 --> 00:32:04.481
Talk us through your
experience a little bit with
00:32:06.513 --> 00:32:10.693
When you feel that you're getting
it wrong, and then what do
00:32:10.693 --> 00:32:12.873
you do with that information?
00:32:13.433 --> 00:32:19.193
Because, you know, you've been
in the game now 20 years or so.
00:32:19.203 --> 00:32:19.243
Mm-hmm.
00:32:19.753 --> 00:32:21.803
You know, one looks up,
and it's gone like that.
00:32:22.263 --> 00:32:24.083
But you've got a lot of wisdom to impart.
00:32:24.103 --> 00:32:28.723
You've, you've weathered many, many
storms like all organizations have,
00:32:28.803 --> 00:32:31.593
and each time you pop up stronger.
00:32:31.693 --> 00:32:39.083
I- i- without going into detail that,
you know, makes you uncomfortable
00:32:39.083 --> 00:32:42.723
disclosing stuff about other people,
can you just give us a sort of general
00:32:42.943 --> 00:32:48.073
sense of sometimes when you felt, "Oh,
I messed up on that one," and then
00:32:48.073 --> 00:32:51.813
what you did with that, and then how
you took that into the next situation?
00:32:51.813 --> 00:32:54.123
I think that this kind of
thing's always useful for us.
00:32:54.643 --> 00:32:57.743
Nicola Hepburn: I mean, are we,
are we talking about people or
00:32:58.443 --> 00:32:59.633
the organization in general?
00:32:59.713 --> 00:33:00.413
Rupert Isaacson: I think both.
00:33:00.513 --> 00:33:03.263
You know, just the- Okay … the,
the situations that spring to mind.
00:33:03.353 --> 00:33:05.853
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think,
you know, early on we had…
00:33:05.973 --> 00:33:10.353
You, you will know we, we had struggled
to find landlords where we could stay for
00:33:10.413 --> 00:33:12.823
a length of time, and, you know- Right
00:33:12.823 --> 00:33:14.953
a lot of people are in a situation where
they don't own land, and you have to
00:33:15.203 --> 00:33:15.273
Rupert Isaacson: rent.
00:33:15.283 --> 00:33:15.293
Mm.
00:33:16.253 --> 00:33:20.283
Nicola Hepburn: And that can be really
tricky because every single land
00:33:20.303 --> 00:33:23.143
we've, you know, every- everywhere
we've been, we've invested money.
00:33:23.143 --> 00:33:23.973
We've fundraised.
00:33:24.003 --> 00:33:24.963
We've invested money.
00:33:25.513 --> 00:33:28.553
So you'll know the, you'll remember the
very first yard we were at, we had that
00:33:28.553 --> 00:33:30.083
tiny little indoor arena that was- Mm
00:33:30.083 --> 00:33:30.093
18.
00:33:30.193 --> 00:33:30.283
It
00:33:33.323 --> 00:33:34.843
was, oh, it was tiny.
00:33:34.843 --> 00:33:40.713
It was, like, 12 meters by 18 meters or
something, and we converted that barn
00:33:40.713 --> 00:33:43.373
into the smallest indoor arena in the UK.
00:33:43.373 --> 00:33:44.063
It was, like, tiny.
00:33:44.113 --> 00:33:47.203
It was this tiny little barn, and
we, you know, but we spent a lot of
00:33:47.203 --> 00:33:49.943
money on that yard, and then things
didn't work out with the landlords.
00:33:50.063 --> 00:33:54.753
And then we moved to another bigger
premises, and then perhaps at that point
00:33:54.753 --> 00:33:57.643
we'd got somewhere that was too big for
what we were ready for, and we were then
00:33:57.673 --> 00:34:01.683
reliant on livery money for, you know,
to, to rent out half the yard as livery.
00:34:01.683 --> 00:34:04.263
And then we were on the other yard,
and then we had, then we had to
00:34:04.263 --> 00:34:08.193
kind of manage doing livery with the
yard, and then that didn't work out.
00:34:08.193 --> 00:34:10.753
And then we moved from there, and
we struggled to find somewhere else.
00:34:11.063 --> 00:34:15.093
And I don't know if you remember at that
point, we'd, we'd fundraised, I think
00:34:15.103 --> 00:34:19.313
about £50,000 to build an arena, and it
was a huge, it was the biggest funding
00:34:19.993 --> 00:34:21.563
we'd ever got, and I was so excited.
00:34:21.713 --> 00:34:23.923
And we had this funding, and
then we lost our property.
00:34:23.923 --> 00:34:27.403
And then the property we were moving
into also fell through, and I was
00:34:27.413 --> 00:34:32.813
suddenly stuck with 20 horses and
nowhere to go, and this, you know, this,
00:34:32.873 --> 00:34:34.953
this big, huge problem in front of us.
00:34:35.809 --> 00:34:38.569
And I think that was actually when I
came out to Texas and did some training
00:34:38.569 --> 00:34:41.374
with you at that point, and came out
and did the working student program.
00:34:41.374 --> 00:34:46.329
And it was just a complete reset for me
at that point, because it was either,
00:34:47.189 --> 00:34:50.419
you know, I was either gonna do it
or I was gonna give up , you know?
00:34:50.509 --> 00:34:52.939
Because everything had suddenly
become incredibly difficult.
00:34:53.379 --> 00:34:58.339
And I think, you know, i- it was a, a time
for me where I was really able to realize
00:34:58.339 --> 00:35:02.019
that I had such a, a passion for the work,
and that it really meant so much to me.
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.419
And I was able to then come back,
find a new premises, which is
00:35:05.419 --> 00:35:06.759
where we still are now, in fact.
00:35:06.789 --> 00:35:08.519
We've been there for 12 years.
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:13.139
And I was able to reapply for funding,
get an even bigger amount, build
00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:15.249
the equestrian center, you know.
00:35:15.409 --> 00:35:18.839
And so I think in that situation it
was just very much about regrouping
00:35:18.849 --> 00:35:19.819
and realizing, "Why am I doing this?
00:35:19.829 --> 00:35:21.649
Why do I do this?
00:35:21.649 --> 00:35:22.879
What am I doing it for?"
00:35:23.179 --> 00:35:26.409
And I think it has to be for the love
of the work, and it has to be because
00:35:26.409 --> 00:35:28.709
you're passionate about wanting
to make a difference to people.
00:35:29.289 --> 00:35:29.569
Mm-hmm.
00:35:29.569 --> 00:35:33.959
And be really passionate about what you're
doing in order to have that tenacity, to
00:35:33.959 --> 00:35:37.539
have that drive, to keep things going when
it gets hard, because it does get hard.
00:35:37.999 --> 00:35:42.239
Especially if you're renting, especially
if, you know, funding is difficult and
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.659
you're having to pay your staff above
yourself and things like that, you know.
00:35:46.669 --> 00:35:50.929
It's, it's not an easy industry
to, to work in, and the equine
00:35:50.939 --> 00:35:52.679
industry in general, I think, can…
00:35:52.879 --> 00:35:55.299
Is, is a difficult industry.
00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:58.999
So I think for me it's about holding
onto that passion and holding onto
00:35:58.999 --> 00:36:03.659
that belief, and really doing things
because you, you really want to do it
00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:05.219
and you really wanna make a difference.
00:36:05.469 --> 00:36:06.563
You have to be incredibly
00:36:06.563 --> 00:36:06.877
Rupert Isaacson: passionate
00:36:06.877 --> 00:36:08.446
Nicola Hepburn: about the work, I think.
00:36:08.446 --> 00:36:11.069
Rupert Isaacson: A- and now, I
mean, I would say, I, I you're
00:36:11.069 --> 00:36:15.159
reminding me, I remember all these
crises and you weathering them.
00:36:15.299 --> 00:36:20.019
And year to year, still
providing services.
00:36:20.439 --> 00:36:23.619
And I think your point is really
good, that most of the people that
00:36:23.899 --> 00:36:27.719
get into this vocationally do not
come from land-owning families.
00:36:28.179 --> 00:36:33.265
Nor do they start with- A
couple of million to go and
00:36:33.265 --> 00:36:35.475
buy and develop a property.
00:36:35.955 --> 00:36:38.585
I'd say that's the vast
majority, you know, of us.
00:36:38.895 --> 00:36:44.965
So we, we might make that money
later, or we might raise that money
00:36:44.965 --> 00:36:46.835
later, but we don't start that way.
00:36:47.215 --> 00:36:52.775
You know, with Horse Boy, we started with
the little bit of land that came with
00:36:52.775 --> 00:36:57.535
the house that I lived in in Texas, and
then I rented my neighbor's 10 acres.
00:36:58.055 --> 00:37:04.705
But there were times when his wife felt
that we were an onerous presence and
00:37:04.915 --> 00:37:09.595
would threaten to kick us off, and we
were always dealing with that insecurity.
00:37:09.645 --> 00:37:12.955
And it's interesting when people look at
the history of Horse Boy and say, "Well,
00:37:12.955 --> 00:37:15.735
you know, it just kind of evolved, and
then it went from strength to strength."
00:37:15.735 --> 00:37:22.935
I say, "Well, yeah and there were many
moments of oops and ah, and whoa, and,
00:37:22.955 --> 00:37:25.855
you know, and, and why are we doing this?"
00:37:26.765 --> 00:37:29.655
And as you say, it always
came down to the passion.
00:37:29.655 --> 00:37:34.895
Now, obviously, for me, I'm, I'm a, I'm
a, an autism dad, but you know, there w-
00:37:35.245 --> 00:37:38.805
I could have at some point said, "Well,
fine, I'll just work with my own child."
00:37:39.355 --> 00:37:43.015
But I always felt that I couldn't do
that because we had stumbled into a
00:37:43.015 --> 00:37:46.835
technology that worked for others, and
there were just so many other parents
00:37:46.835 --> 00:37:52.505
out there in my position who were lost,
that if I didn't make this available,
00:37:52.505 --> 00:37:54.375
then shame on me sort of thing.
00:37:54.925 --> 00:38:00.425
But you've now, I'd say that the
property that you're in is about
00:38:00.455 --> 00:38:02.775
as perfect as it could possibly be.
00:38:03.395 --> 00:38:08.705
Could you walk us through this property
and the different things that it offers?
00:38:09.025 --> 00:38:15.935
Because I think, again, that's a really
helpful thing for listeners and watchers
00:38:15.935 --> 00:38:23.175
to know that, okay, you went from
effectively homeless to this over time.
00:38:23.505 --> 00:38:25.895
Tell us about your current, your,
where, where you've been for the
00:38:25.895 --> 00:38:27.305
last decade and a, and a bit.
00:38:27.955 --> 00:38:28.325
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
00:38:28.325 --> 00:38:32.975
Well, where I am now is Wootton Park,
which is a, a, a private estate out
00:38:32.975 --> 00:38:33.915
in the Warwickshire countryside.
00:38:33.955 --> 00:38:36.055
It's really, you know,
a really beautiful site.
00:38:36.145 --> 00:38:37.615
There were about 300 acres.
00:38:37.615 --> 00:38:41.365
I think now there's probably
about 150 acres of land.
00:38:41.755 --> 00:38:43.035
There's a wedding venue there.
00:38:43.105 --> 00:38:46.955
There's you know, a big farmhouse
where they do accommodations, offices.
00:38:46.955 --> 00:38:50.095
So basically the farm used to be
a working farm and then it got
00:38:50.095 --> 00:38:54.075
converted and all the buildings have
been converted for different uses.
00:38:54.615 --> 00:38:58.565
And it's owned by a family and the,
you know, there's, there's various
00:38:58.565 --> 00:38:59.745
different businesses on site.
00:38:59.745 --> 00:39:04.705
So when I first went to Wootton Park, I
rented a five-acre paddock and an arena.
00:39:04.795 --> 00:39:07.195
So it was originally because we were
running camps that I went there.
00:39:07.575 --> 00:39:10.375
So I was looking for somewhere
where I could run camps.
00:39:10.375 --> 00:39:13.915
I'd come back, I'd run camps
on a yurt site in Devon for the
00:39:13.915 --> 00:39:15.815
summer, and then I'd come back.
00:39:15.815 --> 00:39:19.355
I'd taken all my horses to Devon for
the summer, 20-odd horses to Devon,
00:39:19.355 --> 00:39:21.965
and then we brought them all back to
Warwickshire, and I was renting a field.
00:39:22.555 --> 00:39:24.795
And this was the year I came back
from Texas, and I was like, "Well,
00:39:24.795 --> 00:39:26.205
what, what are we gonna do now?
00:39:26.205 --> 00:39:27.135
Where am I gonna go?"
00:39:27.855 --> 00:39:30.995
And I'd seen this, this estate,
and I contacted the owner and
00:39:31.025 --> 00:39:33.465
said, "You know, they, I'm looking
for somewhere to run camps."
00:39:33.465 --> 00:39:35.405
And I saw that they had glamping pods.
00:39:35.825 --> 00:39:38.739
And I said, "You know, can I please,
you know, can you let me know more
00:39:38.739 --> 00:39:40.425
information about the glamping pods?
00:39:40.425 --> 00:39:41.815
'Cause I'd like to run these camps.
00:39:41.815 --> 00:39:44.105
I'm looking for a, a, you know,
a venue where I could take
00:39:44.115 --> 00:39:45.445
horses and run the camps."
00:39:46.015 --> 00:39:49.735
And they said, "Well, we, we've also
got a paddock and an outdoor arena.
00:39:49.735 --> 00:39:50.935
Would this be of interest to you?"
00:39:51.845 --> 00:39:53.645
And I said, "Yeah, I'll be
there this afternoon," and
00:39:54.055 --> 00:39:55.865
just sort of went and met them.
00:39:56.335 --> 00:39:57.575
And you know, I was very lucky.
00:39:57.575 --> 00:40:00.685
They were really interested in what I was
doing, and they were really lovely people.
00:40:01.055 --> 00:40:03.055
And so that was how it
started where I am now.
00:40:03.055 --> 00:40:06.715
I rented a paddock, and we
started running camps there.
00:40:06.715 --> 00:40:10.425
But the rest of my horses were kept in the
village, and I used to have to box them
00:40:10.655 --> 00:40:12.875
back and forth as we needed to use them.
00:40:13.305 --> 00:40:18.175
And I started off by putting up two
stables and a tack room, and then
00:40:18.195 --> 00:40:21.475
applied for a license and then we
were able to operate from that point.
00:40:21.515 --> 00:40:24.435
But back then, we used to do
most of the sessions out around
00:40:24.435 --> 00:40:25.855
the farm through the woodland.
00:40:26.375 --> 00:40:28.495
And everything was
really based on the farm.
00:40:28.875 --> 00:40:30.815
We did have a, a small wood chip arena- Mm
00:40:30.835 --> 00:40:35.765
but very much the, the farm was
the therapeutic environment, and
00:40:35.765 --> 00:40:38.335
we did everything out, you know,
around the tracks and in the woods.
00:40:39.055 --> 00:40:39.555
So- I
00:40:39.685 --> 00:40:42.135
Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, and to some,
some degree, it sort of still is, right?
00:40:42.155 --> 00:40:45.295
You've got amazing trails through- Yeah
… these fields and, and these farms.
00:40:45.405 --> 00:40:48.165
I think a lot of, a lot of
people would drool to have the
00:40:48.165 --> 00:40:52.435
kind of trail opportunities
that you, you guys have there.
00:40:52.435 --> 00:40:56.205
You s- I know you now have a very nice
arena and a, and a covered round pen,
00:40:56.205 --> 00:41:02.441
but- W- have you, do you keep the practice
of taking the kids out into nature?
00:41:02.871 --> 00:41:03.721
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, very much so.
00:41:04.141 --> 00:41:06.721
You know, at the moment we're running
our summer activities, and we do,
00:41:07.441 --> 00:41:10.791
we do some riding, you know, out on
trails, and then we're off in the
00:41:10.791 --> 00:41:14.341
woods stem building and pond dipping
and doing those kinds of activities.
00:41:14.371 --> 00:41:15.941
So the site has got lakes.
00:41:16.371 --> 00:41:18.811
There's wakeboarding, there's
paddleboarding, there's now a sauna.
00:41:18.881 --> 00:41:22.171
I mean, this has all developed over time,
that it wasn't all- Mm … first started.
00:41:23.061 --> 00:41:26.981
You know, so I think for me it was very
much about finding the right place.
00:41:26.981 --> 00:41:30.671
And I think initially when you start
out, you might have an idea in your head
00:41:30.671 --> 00:41:35.371
that you need a stable yard, and you need
to have stables, and you need an arena.
00:41:35.551 --> 00:41:38.131
But actually, when I went to
Wootton Park, we had a paddock.
00:41:38.871 --> 00:41:41.871
Yeah, we did have a small wood chip
outdoor arena, but it was the rest
00:41:41.871 --> 00:41:43.931
of the site that was so perfect.
00:41:43.931 --> 00:41:47.741
It was the woodland, it was the trails,
it was the fact there was glamping there.
00:41:47.761 --> 00:41:51.831
So I would say for people who are looking
for premises, really look outside the box.
00:41:52.081 --> 00:41:52.861
Approach people.
00:41:52.861 --> 00:41:55.261
Don't just think, "Oh, I
must rent a stable yard."
00:41:55.581 --> 00:41:58.331
It's about finding a- the property
that has something else to offer.
00:41:58.331 --> 00:42:02.131
Because you can build stables,
you can put in an arena, but you
00:42:02.131 --> 00:42:04.471
can't recreate that environment.
00:42:04.491 --> 00:42:08.731
And I think the environment there is so
perfect because it's just a beautiful
00:42:08.731 --> 00:42:12.671
site, you know, really there's no,
there's nothing around it, really.
00:42:12.671 --> 00:42:17.061
It's very much in the middle of the
countryside and, you know, we're very
00:42:17.061 --> 00:42:18.691
fortunate that we have the glamping there.
00:42:18.691 --> 00:42:19.721
We have the lakes.
00:42:20.041 --> 00:42:23.331
You know, we have the, the offices
there as well, so we're able to
00:42:23.331 --> 00:42:26.311
do our learning in a, in a, well,
we don't call it a classroom, we
00:42:26.311 --> 00:42:27.421
just call it a learning space.
00:42:27.421 --> 00:42:28.461
So we rent an office- In
00:42:28.461 --> 00:42:29.121
Rupert Isaacson: an old barn.
00:42:29.171 --> 00:42:29.661
Yeah, right.
00:42:29.681 --> 00:42:30.001
Exactly.
00:42:30.671 --> 00:42:30.691
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:42:30.951 --> 00:42:31.091
It's been converted.
00:42:31.091 --> 00:42:31.211
Barn conversion.
00:42:31.721 --> 00:42:34.291
So we're very lucky that we have
everything that we need on site.
00:42:34.901 --> 00:42:38.201
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you, the,
the, it, this thing of also look-
00:42:38.201 --> 00:42:41.951
thinking beyond horses, I'm always
trying to prevail upon people in
00:42:41.951 --> 00:42:44.631
the equine assisted thing to, to do.
00:42:44.641 --> 00:42:47.891
Like you've got the, there's, there's
this wakeboarding, set of wakeboarding
00:42:47.891 --> 00:42:53.711
lakes, which are right adjacent to
your stable, the arena and so on, so…
00:42:53.761 --> 00:42:58.721
And I've taken my own children there so
that they could, for example, go do the
00:42:58.721 --> 00:43:03.911
water activities which have all their
own, you know, neuroscience benefits.
00:43:04.371 --> 00:43:09.381
And, you know, Rowan, my autistic son,
has been served there very, very well.
00:43:09.421 --> 00:43:13.461
And then one could then go across
to you, to the horses and b- back
00:43:13.461 --> 00:43:17.621
and forth and out, as you say, to,
to the, to the trails, to the woods.
00:43:18.031 --> 00:43:19.391
And then there's glamping, et cetera.
00:43:19.391 --> 00:43:24.561
So when I was first beginning
with Rowan we had no facilities.
00:43:24.561 --> 00:43:30.647
We just had field, horse
We didn't even have trails.
00:43:30.677 --> 00:43:33.957
I had to go because it was Texas, you get
shot if you go on other people's land.
00:43:34.337 --> 00:43:40.177
So what I did is I went around to other
local landowners and said, "Is it possible
00:43:40.177 --> 00:43:41.667
for me to come ride on your property?"
00:43:41.667 --> 00:43:43.327
And a whole bunch of
them, of course, said no.
00:43:43.927 --> 00:43:47.887
But when I explained what I wanted
to do, these are all places where
00:43:47.887 --> 00:43:53.647
I could ride to, not put a horse in
a trailer a small, very, very small
00:43:54.087 --> 00:43:55.847
group said, "Yeah, okay, we get it."
00:43:56.517 --> 00:44:04.957
And what resulted was hundreds of acres
of exploration wi- and creeks and deer
00:44:04.957 --> 00:44:12.247
and porcupines and armadillos and wild
hogs and bobcats and incredible bird
00:44:12.247 --> 00:44:19.157
life and tree species, and all these
things which I didn't own but because
00:44:19.157 --> 00:44:24.737
people got the reason why we wanted
to access, and I was careful not to
00:44:24.737 --> 00:44:29.397
use any one trail too many times in
a month, so we weren't too heavy of a
00:44:29.397 --> 00:44:33.107
footprint we could piece this together.
00:44:33.517 --> 00:44:37.927
And then later, you know, as you know,
we, we eventually put in arenas, and we
00:44:37.927 --> 00:44:39.437
put in a covered arena, and we did one.
00:44:39.437 --> 00:44:41.507
We acquired more land as we raised money.
00:44:41.507 --> 00:44:45.807
But I'd say that the hardcore
of the work that we did was
00:44:45.817 --> 00:44:47.557
always really in that sort of…
00:44:47.587 --> 00:44:48.487
Oh, look, there's that thumb size.
00:44:48.507 --> 00:44:50.927
Every time I do this it
does this weird thumbs down.
00:44:50.927 --> 00:44:53.037
It's like I gotta stop do-
I gotta do this instead.
00:44:53.037 --> 00:44:54.347
Look, look, see, see if that works.
00:44:54.557 --> 00:44:56.927
But it's funny, whenever I do the thumb
up there, it doesn't give me a thumb up.
00:44:56.997 --> 00:44:59.767
Is there some sort of negative
bias on Zoom or something?
00:45:00.347 --> 00:45:00.857
Very weird.
00:45:01.037 --> 00:45:02.997
Okay, I'll just keep my
thumb away from my face.
00:45:03.517 --> 00:45:11.767
So a lot of it, I guess, was
about outreach and community.
00:45:12.097 --> 00:45:15.997
And in Texas, I was always surprised
when people would say yes that we could
00:45:16.247 --> 00:45:19.647
go on their land, 'cause people are
terrified they're being sued, right?
00:45:19.977 --> 00:45:23.507
So it really took a lot of trust,
and I did actually lose one set of
00:45:23.507 --> 00:45:26.997
pastures because eventually a guy said,
"I'm just too worried that you might
00:45:26.997 --> 00:45:29.267
fall off with your kid and sue me."
00:45:29.297 --> 00:45:32.797
And there wasn't much I could say to that
you know, other than an empty promise.
00:45:33.217 --> 00:45:40.197
But- I'm also like a massive hippie, and
so I stood out like a bit of a sore thumb
00:45:40.197 --> 00:45:42.807
in that very conservative area of Texas.
00:45:43.227 --> 00:45:49.587
And most of my neighbors that I was asking
for access on their land would normally
00:45:50.137 --> 00:45:53.537
not like somebody like me on site.
00:45:53.827 --> 00:46:01.577
But because I sort of went very directly
and said what it was for, and then I
00:46:01.577 --> 00:46:04.707
suppose a bit like a master of, of,
of foxhounds or something, I would
00:46:04.967 --> 00:46:08.107
make sure that ev- every few months I
would show up with bottles of whiskey.
00:46:08.107 --> 00:46:12.327
I would show up with crates of beer
and sit and drink with them, and
00:46:13.507 --> 00:46:16.267
they also knew that I knew about
farming, I knew about ranching, 'cause
00:46:16.267 --> 00:46:17.287
that is my family, so I could…
00:46:17.987 --> 00:46:18.947
I knew about hunting.
00:46:19.577 --> 00:46:23.657
We could establish a sort of
tribe, tribal feeling that really
00:46:23.677 --> 00:46:26.547
allowed the project to flourish.
00:46:27.107 --> 00:46:29.737
And I think in a funny way,
that's what you've done, too.
00:46:29.737 --> 00:46:35.877
If y- y- y- even though there were
difficulties with certain places on
00:46:35.877 --> 00:46:39.827
this evolution, it seems that what
you've really excelled at is being
00:46:39.837 --> 00:46:46.197
able to reach out within your community
and say, "Hey, look, there is a
00:46:46.197 --> 00:46:48.087
mission here, and there's a need here.
00:46:48.927 --> 00:46:50.747
Can you help me to fulfill this need?"
00:46:51.307 --> 00:46:55.837
'Cause it sort of could be your c- your
nephew, your grandkid, your, you know…
00:46:56.557 --> 00:46:59.627
W- what do you say to people who are…
00:46:59.627 --> 00:47:00.847
A lot of people are very shy.
00:47:00.857 --> 00:47:01.687
A lot of people are
00:47:04.525 --> 00:47:07.725
Afraid of rejection, afraid of judgment.
00:47:08.175 --> 00:47:11.575
What, what do you s- and I know y-
you yourself are quite shy, you know,
00:47:12.345 --> 00:47:14.035
yet you always push through and do it.
00:47:14.035 --> 00:47:15.075
W- how do you get over that?
00:47:15.075 --> 00:47:18.615
How, how do you, how, what's your
advice to people who are hovering
00:47:18.615 --> 00:47:21.565
on that brink, going, "Well, how,
how do I build that community?"
00:47:22.435 --> 00:47:25.275
Nicola Hepburn: I think the worst
thing that people can do is say no.
00:47:25.275 --> 00:47:27.065
So if somebody says no,
you haven't lost anything.
00:47:27.235 --> 00:47:27.245
Mm.
00:47:27.625 --> 00:47:31.535
And I, you know, for me, I, I was very
aware that what I was looking for wasn't
00:47:31.545 --> 00:47:35.085
necessarily going to just land in my lap.
00:47:35.125 --> 00:47:37.085
It was very much, you know,
I had to get out and find it.
00:47:37.105 --> 00:47:40.385
And, and I think when you tell people
about the work and you tell people
00:47:40.385 --> 00:47:45.125
what you want to do, generally, even
if they're not interested, they'll say,
00:47:45.125 --> 00:47:46.685
"Oh, have you tried such and such?"
00:47:46.685 --> 00:47:49.760
Or, you know, I think the
farming community, they all
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:50.705
know each other as well.
00:47:50.705 --> 00:47:52.145
A lot of the landowners know each other.
00:47:52.145 --> 00:47:55.105
So even if you go to one landowner
and they say no, they might point you
00:47:55.115 --> 00:47:56.845
in the direction of somebody else.
00:47:57.205 --> 00:47:59.065
So I think it's about just
getting over it, really.
00:47:59.325 --> 00:48:02.915
Getting over your shyness and just putting
yourself out there, because anything
00:48:02.925 --> 00:48:08.025
that's worth doing takes hard work and
takes, you know, y- you have to be able
00:48:08.025 --> 00:48:11.115
to get over yourself, really, and just- W-
00:48:11.175 --> 00:48:12.545
Rupert Isaacson: would you
actually drive up people's drive…
00:48:12.545 --> 00:48:13.995
Look, Snaps doing that thing again.
00:48:13.995 --> 00:48:16.385
W- would you, would you, would you
drive up people's driveways and
00:48:16.385 --> 00:48:17.655
actually knock on their door or-
00:48:18.635 --> 00:48:20.635
Nicola Hepburn: I, mm, I have-
Yeah … done that, yeah.
00:48:21.235 --> 00:48:24.385
And, you know, with the, the
site I am now, I contacted them.
00:48:24.445 --> 00:48:25.105
It was speculative.
00:48:25.345 --> 00:48:25.365
Yeah.
00:48:25.365 --> 00:48:29.075
I contacted them and said, you know,
"Would you be interested in this?
00:48:29.085 --> 00:48:31.275
Is this something we could
run at your property?"
00:48:31.275 --> 00:48:31.565
And it-
00:48:31.755 --> 00:48:31.855
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
00:48:31.905 --> 00:48:35.055
Nicola Hepburn: And you know, like
I say, as it happened initially, I
00:48:35.055 --> 00:48:38.365
was just renting a pa- a paddock, and
the arena were running camps here,
00:48:38.475 --> 00:48:41.315
and all my horses were in a different
field in the village that I rented.
00:48:41.325 --> 00:48:46.175
So it, look, it wasn't the ideal setup
initially, but then as time went on and
00:48:46.185 --> 00:48:50.085
the camps were successful and we got
this funding bid, you know, I managed to
00:48:50.085 --> 00:48:51.625
get this funding bid to build an arena.
00:48:51.635 --> 00:48:53.635
It was then I was able to go to
them and say, "Look, I've got this
00:48:53.635 --> 00:48:55.865
funding, you know, I wanna stay here.
00:48:55.865 --> 00:48:56.705
Can we work with you?"
00:48:56.705 --> 00:49:01.235
And I was very lucky that they were
people who were open to new ideas
00:49:01.255 --> 00:49:03.055
and creative people themselves.
00:49:03.405 --> 00:49:03.415
Mm.
00:49:03.445 --> 00:49:07.895
And, you know, people who'd converted
their whole farm and had vision.
00:49:08.315 --> 00:49:11.815
You know, so I was, I was lucky that
I, you know, I met the right people who
00:49:11.815 --> 00:49:13.285
were able to support what I was doing.
00:49:13.675 --> 00:49:18.685
But I was running the business for
probably eight years prior to that before
00:49:18.735 --> 00:49:20.475
I managed to find that right place.
00:49:21.151 --> 00:49:23.481
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
00:49:23.481 --> 00:49:27.911
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
00:49:27.981 --> 00:49:32.251
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.
00:49:32.311 --> 00:49:37.891
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original
00:49:38.486 --> 00:49:44.796
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and
00:49:44.796 --> 00:49:47.466
developed in conjunction with Dr.
00:49:47.466 --> 00:49:50.346
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.
00:49:50.686 --> 00:49:53.956
We work in the saddle
with younger children.
00:49:54.451 --> 00:49:59.401
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
00:50:00.061 --> 00:50:01.501
It works incredibly well.
00:50:01.501 --> 00:50:03.221
It's now in about 40 countries.
00:50:03.931 --> 00:50:04.681
Check it out.
00:50:05.361 --> 00:50:09.511
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
00:50:09.521 --> 00:50:12.891
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
00:50:12.891 --> 00:50:14.641
applied in schools, in homes.
00:50:14.841 --> 00:50:19.831
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
00:50:19.831 --> 00:50:21.371
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
00:50:22.726 --> 00:50:24.006
when they're not with you.
00:50:24.516 --> 00:50:27.956
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
00:50:28.316 --> 00:50:30.936
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
00:50:30.936 --> 00:50:34.936
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
00:50:34.966 --> 00:50:39.256
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
00:50:39.696 --> 00:50:43.036
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
00:50:43.056 --> 00:50:47.296
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
00:50:47.496 --> 00:50:51.786
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
00:50:51.786 --> 00:50:55.086
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
00:50:55.086 --> 00:50:58.181
need, as well as Serving my clients.
00:50:58.421 --> 00:51:02.921
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
00:51:03.251 --> 00:51:04.901
absolutely gives you this.
00:51:04.961 --> 00:51:05.331
Right.
00:51:05.371 --> 00:51:07.711
And you, as you say,
you reached out to them.
00:51:07.711 --> 00:51:12.581
I th- I think one of the, the
hardest things to get over, because
00:51:12.581 --> 00:51:19.541
we're all just conditioned not
to do it, is to simply go and ask
00:51:21.817 --> 00:51:23.167
It w- could we do this?
00:51:23.397 --> 00:51:27.767
And as you say, the worst thing that
someone can do i- is, is no, is say no,
00:51:27.817 --> 00:51:29.747
and that, that certainly doesn't kill you.
00:51:29.917 --> 00:51:32.767
And then as you also say, that
some- sometimes they say, "No,
00:51:32.797 --> 00:51:34.877
but you could try so and so."
00:51:35.407 --> 00:51:40.017
Then another thing I've often found
too is they might say no now, but
00:51:40.017 --> 00:51:45.017
for some reason when you ask ag-
keep asking, because things change.
00:51:45.077 --> 00:51:45.807
Y- you…
00:51:46.607 --> 00:51:50.227
People's brains change, people's
personalities change, people's economic
00:51:50.227 --> 00:51:54.537
circumstances change, and so i-
it's often good to check in, I feel.
00:51:54.817 --> 00:51:58.407
And, and w- sometimes it can
even happen spontaneously.
00:51:58.407 --> 00:51:58.737
I…
00:51:58.817 --> 00:51:59.047
The…
00:51:59.107 --> 00:52:02.287
One of the properties that we used to
ride on, I don't know if you remember,
00:52:02.287 --> 00:52:04.107
it was called the A&L Ranch in Texas.
00:52:04.117 --> 00:52:04.907
Yeah, I do.
00:52:04.907 --> 00:52:09.017
And owned by Big Al who was like
a, a major character, and not
00:52:09.027 --> 00:52:10.317
someone to get on the wrong side of.
00:52:10.647 --> 00:52:13.237
But if he was on your side,
amazing, amazing bloke.
00:52:13.307 --> 00:52:18.617
And when I first went and asked if
we could access that land, which had,
00:52:18.727 --> 00:52:23.637
if you remember those, that beautiful
creek with those mature pecan, old
00:52:23.637 --> 00:52:25.597
pecan groves on it, it's so beautiful.
00:52:26.117 --> 00:52:29.557
It was actually his dad, who I think
was probably in his late 80s or
00:52:29.557 --> 00:52:33.687
early 90s who was still running it,
and I remember him looking at me and
00:52:33.687 --> 00:52:35.037
just thinking, "Who is this hippie?"
00:52:35.567 --> 00:52:39.537
And when I asked him, you
know, "Could we do this?"
00:52:39.537 --> 00:52:40.557
He was like, "Why?
00:52:40.567 --> 00:52:41.777
Why do you wanna come on my land?
00:52:41.787 --> 00:52:43.517
Now, are you bringing a metal detector?
00:52:43.517 --> 00:52:44.657
Are you, are you bringing guns?
00:52:44.657 --> 00:52:45.847
Are you, are you…
00:52:45.847 --> 00:52:46.757
What are you looking for?
00:52:46.757 --> 00:52:47.427
Like, what are you…
00:52:47.427 --> 00:52:48.597
You, you wanna hunt something?
00:52:48.597 --> 00:52:49.857
You wanna find something?
00:52:49.857 --> 00:52:52.507
Like, what have I got on my land that
you want that I don't know about you?"
00:52:52.927 --> 00:52:53.577
And it was so weird.
00:52:53.577 --> 00:52:59.017
I was like, "No, I'm just British and we
like to go for walks on the countryside."
00:52:59.017 --> 00:53:01.077
And he's like, he's like, "Well,
you know, you can pretty much get
00:53:01.077 --> 00:53:02.887
everywhere you want to in a truck."
00:53:02.887 --> 00:53:05.387
I'm like, "Yeah, but
that's not what I wanna do.
00:53:06.427 --> 00:53:08.087
And anyway, I've got
this autistic kid and…"
00:53:08.577 --> 00:53:10.057
And okay, fine, he said no.
00:53:10.517 --> 00:53:14.407
But I remember being in the bath about
three years later, and there's this
00:53:14.417 --> 00:53:18.287
knock on the door, and I got out of
the bath, you know, get a bathrobe
00:53:18.307 --> 00:53:22.117
on, answer the door, and it was his
son who'd been there in the background
00:53:22.597 --> 00:53:28.697
as a mature, you know, sort of grown
man son, but hadn't said a word.
00:53:28.717 --> 00:53:33.201
Obviously, the old man was a bit of a
tyrant And he said, "The old man's dead.
00:53:33.281 --> 00:53:34.511
You can come on any time you want."
00:53:35.291 --> 00:53:39.341
And that was Big Al, you know,
who then was, like, one of
00:53:39.341 --> 00:53:40.731
our staunchest supporters.
00:53:40.971 --> 00:53:44.501
But if I'd never gone and asked, and if I
hadn't gone through that initial refusal-
00:53:45.081 --> 00:53:45.491
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
00:53:46.071 --> 00:53:48.221
… Rupert Isaacson: and I, I guess it,
it, there's a thing too that one
00:53:48.231 --> 00:53:52.721
has to find it in one's heart not
to judge or feel bitter or angry for
00:53:52.721 --> 00:53:56.931
the people that do refuse you because
you, they're always teaching you
00:53:56.931 --> 00:54:03.481
something, and you never know but that
something's not gonna come through that-
00:54:04.131 --> 00:54:04.351
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
00:54:04.381 --> 00:54:05.831
Rupert Isaacson: if you
can keep your heart open.
00:54:06.581 --> 00:54:08.301
But obviously that can be
difficult when you're feeling
00:54:08.721 --> 00:54:09.981
stressed and desperate, you know.
00:54:11.011 --> 00:54:11.381
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
00:54:11.431 --> 00:54:12.491
I think so, definitely.
00:54:12.491 --> 00:54:15.001
I mean, I, yeah, I mean, that ranch
in Texas, I remember riding on.
00:54:15.001 --> 00:54:16.801
It was so amazing with all
the wildflowers as well.
00:54:16.801 --> 00:54:19.501
It was so … 'Cause I was
always really shocked that there
00:54:19.501 --> 00:54:20.901
were so many flowers in Texas.
00:54:20.901 --> 00:54:24.635
I always imagined it to be really dry,
and it was, yeah, it was very beautiful.
00:54:24.635 --> 00:54:29.461
But I think, yeah, I think it's definitely
a case of, you know, not being afraid
00:54:29.461 --> 00:54:32.311
of people to say no, and they have the
right to say no at the end of the day.
00:54:32.311 --> 00:54:34.047
If they don't want you
there, they don't want
00:54:34.047 --> 00:54:34.365
Rupert Isaacson: you
00:54:34.365 --> 00:54:37.851
Nicola Hepburn: on- Mm … and,
but I'd, I found that most people
00:54:38.031 --> 00:54:40.951
when you ask them and they say no,
they're really polite about it.
00:54:40.951 --> 00:54:44.471
I, you know, I don't think anybody
has ever been offended by me asking.
00:54:44.481 --> 00:54:44.501
Yeah.
00:54:45.191 --> 00:54:47.891
And I think if I hadn't have
asked, and that was how I found
00:54:47.891 --> 00:54:51.831
my first property, you know, the,
the one with the very small arena.
00:54:51.871 --> 00:54:55.371
That was, you know, I had to spend, I
spent months and months and months and
00:54:55.371 --> 00:54:58.431
months searching for that and knocking
on doors and asking people because
00:54:59.061 --> 00:55:01.791
I, you know, I was operating out of
a liveryard like I say, initially.
00:55:01.801 --> 00:55:04.451
So it was, I think most of the properties
00:55:06.571 --> 00:55:08.579
I've had you know, I've had
to be, I've really had to put
00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:09.739
myself out there for them.
00:55:09.739 --> 00:55:14.029
So I think, yeah, I d- I don't
think people mind you asking at all.
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.329
Rupert Isaacson: And then you end
up with the perfect property, and
00:55:17.329 --> 00:55:21.029
then of course you have the … And,
and, and you get your funding, and
00:55:21.029 --> 00:55:23.989
you get all that, and then you have
to deliver the service and which of
00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:25.189
course you were always doing anyway.
00:55:25.609 --> 00:55:29.669
Let's talk about this a little bit
because I think you being 20 years in
00:55:30.049 --> 00:55:37.269
both of us, you know, 20 years in, we've
o- obviously seen a lot of different w-
00:55:38.439 --> 00:55:41.629
challenges of delivering the service.
00:55:41.629 --> 00:55:45.349
I think, I think a lot of people feel
that, oh, well, you're delivering this
00:55:45.349 --> 00:55:48.459
wonderful service, and people will
just sort of show up and be very happy
00:55:48.459 --> 00:55:52.209
and very grateful, and, you know, or,
and, and of course it's not the case.
00:55:52.259 --> 00:55:53.229
When we were-
00:55:55.337 --> 00:55:56.707
Operating out of Texas.
00:55:56.937 --> 00:56:01.387
You know, as you know, I, I did the first
decade of our services completely free
00:56:01.387 --> 00:56:08.327
of charge because I'd been so broke when
Rowan's diagnosis had come that I felt
00:56:08.327 --> 00:56:15.257
this real obligation to try to give the
services free or massively subsidized.
00:56:15.257 --> 00:56:21.487
And r- in retrospect, I realized that
was actually a mistake that what happened
00:56:21.487 --> 00:56:26.107
was I created massive entitlement, and
people often didn't value what we were
00:56:26.107 --> 00:56:30.997
offering, and we would be bending over
backwards providing incredible play dates
00:56:30.997 --> 00:56:35.097
where p- kids were not just becoming
verbal, but we were as, like you, getting
00:56:35.097 --> 00:56:39.737
them their academic skills and all this
and being with this really inventive
00:56:39.737 --> 00:56:45.687
staff and, you know, brilliant minds
working for us who were really working
00:56:45.687 --> 00:56:47.367
on behalf of these, of these families.
00:56:48.117 --> 00:56:50.617
And w- after a while, you
know, it was, it was weird.
00:56:50.617 --> 00:56:53.667
We could really tell we-- it
just wasn't really valued.
00:56:54.147 --> 00:56:59.387
And more than that, I almost became
afraid of some of the clients that we
00:56:59.387 --> 00:57:03.377
had because the sense of entitlement
meant that sometimes they could be quite
00:57:03.377 --> 00:57:07.617
aggressive, and that's like, wow, you
know, we could get sued here, you know.
00:57:07.617 --> 00:57:08.907
And that's weird.
00:57:08.907 --> 00:57:13.257
And, and then, so when I got to
Germany, I switched the model and
00:57:13.257 --> 00:57:18.167
said, "No, we will charge, but I
can, of course, give scholarships.
00:57:18.707 --> 00:57:23.767
But if I give scholarships, they could be
free or they could be subsidized or they
00:57:23.767 --> 00:57:27.987
could be to this, but there will now be
a sort of official process that people
00:57:28.207 --> 00:57:32.677
need to go through in order to get that
scholarship, and it will be a minority."
00:57:33.177 --> 00:57:35.637
And weirdly, that worked so much better.
00:57:36.057 --> 00:57:39.267
People really valued
what we did so much more.
00:57:40.457 --> 00:57:45.707
What's been your experience with
this, and what's your advice to people
00:57:46.147 --> 00:57:48.157
going into it, you know, vocationally?
00:57:48.157 --> 00:57:51.527
Because when you and I first
began, we almost had to, you
00:57:51.527 --> 00:57:53.017
know, pay to do the work.
00:57:53.017 --> 00:57:55.007
You know, it was a real labor of love.
00:57:55.007 --> 00:57:57.247
We, you know, we ran broke
doing it a lot of the time.
00:57:57.457 --> 00:58:00.557
Now, there really is a lot of
government money out there.
00:58:00.577 --> 00:58:01.277
Things have changed.
00:58:01.287 --> 00:58:04.037
Thank God, it's a good, it's a good
thing, and it's now become a sort
00:58:04.037 --> 00:58:08.027
of viable career path for people
to go into equine-assisted stuff.
00:58:08.127 --> 00:58:10.857
But I think a lot of people don't
understand some of the challenges that
00:58:10.857 --> 00:58:12.237
might be waiting for them when they do it.
00:58:12.537 --> 00:58:14.007
Can you talk us through that a little bit?
00:58:14.027 --> 00:58:18.723
You know, again, you don't have to Give
too many details, but I think, I think
00:58:19.153 --> 00:58:23.743
this type of wisdom is needed for people
that are gonna go into the field I
00:58:24.583 --> 00:58:27.643
Nicola Hepburn: think, you know,
for a lot of people it is a passion
00:58:27.653 --> 00:58:29.973
that's come from personal experience.
00:58:29.983 --> 00:58:32.663
So for you, you know, with Rowan
it was very personal to you.
00:58:32.663 --> 00:58:36.013
I think with me, you know, I was
a homeless teenager and I, you
00:58:36.013 --> 00:58:38.823
know, I lived in a homeless hostel
for a while when I was a teenager.
00:58:39.133 --> 00:58:42.953
And so I think perhaps I didn't realize
at the time, but I was trying to
00:58:42.953 --> 00:58:48.103
create service that I needed or I would
have needed at that point in my life.
00:58:48.123 --> 00:58:51.653
And so I think, you know, when you
have that passion for the work and
00:58:51.653 --> 00:58:54.963
you're trying to create something
that's so personal to you, and I think
00:58:54.963 --> 00:58:58.873
a lot of people who go into this field
have had personal experience which
00:58:59.333 --> 00:59:03.143
in their lives which has led them to want
to make a difference to other people.
00:59:03.443 --> 00:59:07.093
And when you approach it from that place,
it becomes a, a passion project and you
00:59:07.093 --> 00:59:10.863
want every family who comes through the
door to benefit and you want everybody to
00:59:11.383 --> 00:59:13.413
leave feeling better than they came in.
00:59:13.923 --> 00:59:18.633
Sometimes to your own detriment because
you're more focused on them, you know, and
00:59:18.633 --> 00:59:22.533
doing, doing the right thing than you are
necessarily, like you say, on the business
00:59:22.533 --> 00:59:25.233
or on making it financially viable.
00:59:25.503 --> 00:59:29.563
So my advice would be, you
know, don't lose sight of that.
00:59:29.973 --> 00:59:33.673
But at the same time, you
know, pay yourself first.
00:59:33.673 --> 00:59:36.103
Make sure that you can afford
to keep things running.
00:59:36.143 --> 00:59:40.233
Make sure that if families
are not behaving in a way that
00:59:40.233 --> 00:59:44.103
you find acceptable, don't be
afraid to say, "Look, I'm sorry.
00:59:44.163 --> 00:59:45.483
This isn't okay."
00:59:45.663 --> 00:59:46.263
You know?
00:59:46.653 --> 00:59:53.403
Because it causes a lot of damage to
the whole team and the whole environment
00:59:53.403 --> 00:59:57.953
if you've got families or young people
who are behaving in a way which is,
00:59:58.733 --> 01:00:00.163
you know, against your policies.
01:00:00.173 --> 01:00:03.563
So I'd say have a very clear behavior
policy in place, have very clear
01:00:03.563 --> 01:00:06.093
policies in place from the outset.
01:00:06.223 --> 01:00:06.443
The…
01:00:06.633 --> 01:00:10.903
And so that people understand that
the expectations, they understand.
01:00:11.093 --> 01:00:14.553
You know, have, have agreements in
place that people sign before they come
01:00:14.873 --> 01:00:16.613
that say, "These are our expectations.
01:00:16.613 --> 01:00:17.983
These are our behavior policies.
01:00:18.023 --> 01:00:18.983
This is what we offer.
01:00:18.983 --> 01:00:21.933
This is what we don't offer," so
that when people come you have a
01:00:21.933 --> 01:00:23.413
document you can refer them to.
01:00:23.993 --> 01:00:27.043
You know, I'd say that's been very
important for us, and having behavior
01:00:27.043 --> 01:00:32.213
policies and terms and conditions that we
can be very clear about and participant
01:00:32.233 --> 01:00:36.763
agreements signed before people come so
they understand all these things has been,
01:00:36.783 --> 01:00:38.683
has really helped, helped me with that.
01:00:38.733 --> 01:00:43.753
Because I think there's been times when
I've been over generous or I've been you
01:00:43.753 --> 01:00:46.703
know, where a family may not have treated
us very well and I've tried to continue
01:00:46.703 --> 01:00:50.753
helping them because I think it's the
right thing to do to our own detriment.
01:00:50.763 --> 01:00:51.113
You know?
01:00:51.113 --> 01:00:54.293
So I think have those policies
in place and really stick to them
01:00:55.989 --> 01:00:57.619
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, which
can be difficult, as you say,
01:00:57.659 --> 01:00:59.019
'cause emotions get involved.
01:00:59.349 --> 01:00:59.369
Mm-hmm.
01:00:59.469 --> 01:01:04.769
One of the things I found with that
too, is sometimes people will leave but
01:01:04.769 --> 01:01:09.519
then they might come back later, oddly
enough when they've had a bit of a think.
01:01:10.249 --> 01:01:14.109
One of, one of my current things
is that, as you know, we have Horse
01:01:14.109 --> 01:01:16.999
Boy Method and Movement Method, and
Movement Method is without horses,
01:01:17.359 --> 01:01:19.209
so it's what you can do at home.
01:01:19.749 --> 01:01:25.319
So what I now do is I ask parents
to do a Movement Method course,
01:01:26.059 --> 01:01:29.899
at least online 'cause that costs
the princely sum of about £30.
01:01:30.329 --> 01:01:35.359
And it'll be a certain number of
hours of their time, or we have
01:01:35.359 --> 01:01:39.439
a shortened one that they can
do live, which is, like, £75.
01:01:39.799 --> 01:01:41.389
So we make it as cheap as we can.
01:01:41.739 --> 01:01:50.459
But I say, "Look, if after six weeks you
haven't done that, then we can't guarantee
01:01:50.459 --> 01:01:58.319
that what we do here will continue at
home, and if it doesn't, then f- honestly,
01:01:58.319 --> 01:02:04.359
you know, no matter what good effects you
get here, they won't stick in the same
01:02:04.359 --> 01:02:10.059
way that they will if you have a 24/7
culture of this type of neurologically
01:02:10.059 --> 01:02:11.339
based movement going on at home.
01:02:13.059 --> 01:02:16.689
Now, I understand that you're busy,
and so six weeks may very well
01:02:16.689 --> 01:02:18.259
go by and you haven't done it.
01:02:18.269 --> 01:02:23.869
So tell you what, why don't we extend
that another six weeks, 12 weeks, and
01:02:23.879 --> 01:02:26.159
I'll extend it even another 12 weeks.
01:02:26.549 --> 01:02:32.789
But if at the end of that there's no
buy-in, then generally what I'll say is,
01:02:32.789 --> 01:02:38.859
"Well, I, I'm sorry, but I need to now
make this space available to a family
01:02:38.859 --> 01:02:43.839
that will do that, because we really
need to see lasting difference here
01:02:43.839 --> 01:02:45.259
because we're putting in a lot of effort.
01:02:45.619 --> 01:02:47.399
However, the door is open.
01:02:47.399 --> 01:02:48.559
You can always come back.
01:02:48.989 --> 01:02:50.999
But perhaps this isn't for you right now."
01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:55.829
And that I found … You know, I wish
I'd been saying that 10 years ago.
01:02:56.529 --> 01:02:56.799
Yeah.
01:03:00.647 --> 01:03:08.087
When now I think we're dealing with a very
different landscape socially to what we
01:03:08.087 --> 01:03:09.397
were dealing, particularly post-COVID.
01:03:09.887 --> 01:03:17.947
And it can be a bit of a minefield for
practitioners and providers as well.
01:03:18.007 --> 01:03:21.517
You might u- use the wrong pronoun
for somebody now, you know, stuff we
01:03:21.517 --> 01:03:22.967
wouldn't have thought about 20 years ago.
01:03:23.287 --> 01:03:26.107
You might be perceived as
01:03:29.107 --> 01:03:33.177
Unsympathetic to a particular
gender orientation or something.
01:03:33.377 --> 01:03:38.757
Even if you actually are, things can
be, y- y- you are very supportive you
01:03:38.757 --> 01:03:44.387
can end up being thrown into these roles
by effectively stroppy teenagers, you
01:03:44.387 --> 01:03:49.967
know, who now have a sort of ammunition
of things which can be used in that
01:03:49.967 --> 01:03:51.677
way which were not really there before.
01:03:51.677 --> 01:03:56.297
And it's made, I think, the provision
of services actually quite a lot more
01:03:56.307 --> 01:04:00.537
stressful for because, you know, you're
also trying to keep people alive.
01:04:00.537 --> 01:04:05.307
You're also trying to educate, you're
also trying to provide what's needed.
01:04:06.377 --> 01:04:10.947
And now there's this feeling of, gosh,
if I put a foot wrong, you know, or
01:04:10.947 --> 01:04:18.041
say the wrong thing even inadvertently
I could be punished for this.
01:04:18.441 --> 01:04:22.461
What, what has been your
experience with this?
01:04:22.511 --> 01:04:28.211
And again, your advice for people
who are entering the business
01:04:28.211 --> 01:04:31.281
because it's, it, it's changed for
the better- Yeah … because there's
01:04:31.281 --> 01:04:32.901
funding, but it's become trickier.
01:04:33.631 --> 01:04:35.261
How would you, what would you
say to people about how to
01:04:35.261 --> 01:04:36.341
navigate this sort of thing?
01:04:37.281 --> 01:04:40.011
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know,
keeping yourself informed is really
01:04:40.011 --> 01:04:43.591
important because obviously things are
very different now than they were 20
01:04:43.591 --> 01:04:45.811
years ago, and there's, and there's
certain times when I feel, you know,
01:04:47.321 --> 01:04:49.151
I don't have all the information, you
know, about, about new things that are
01:04:49.151 --> 01:04:49.521
you know, new best practice, I guess.
01:04:49.771 --> 01:04:50.151
Mm-hmm.
01:04:55.581 --> 01:04:59.381
So I'd say that's about, that's about
being part of a community as well.
01:04:59.401 --> 01:05:03.071
That's about being part of you know,
communities with other providers
01:05:03.321 --> 01:05:06.261
locally, communities with other people,
keeping in touch with other people so
01:05:06.261 --> 01:05:09.781
you can all have these discussions and
almo- it's almost like a supervision,
01:05:09.781 --> 01:05:13.691
I guess, isn't it, where you're working
with people and you're able to discuss
01:05:13.691 --> 01:05:14.721
what's happening with other people.
01:05:14.771 --> 01:05:16.411
I think that's really, really important.
01:05:16.761 --> 01:05:20.171
And I think, you know, like with with
Horseboy as well, you know, there's
01:05:20.171 --> 01:05:24.071
like the online chat groups and things
which are i- resources where you've
01:05:24.071 --> 01:05:27.221
got practitioners from everywhere where
you can all discuss these things, and
01:05:27.221 --> 01:05:30.716
I think that's really important is
having that community of practitioners.
01:05:30.716 --> 01:05:31.101
Mm-hmm.
01:05:31.631 --> 01:05:34.851
And trying to keep yourself informed,
you know, through trainings.
01:05:34.851 --> 01:05:38.051
I think with the local authority
obviously, when you work with the local
01:05:38.051 --> 01:05:41.961
authority you get the opportunity to
learn a lot more about safeguarding and
01:05:41.971 --> 01:05:45.381
being involved in safeguarding courses
and especially with education they, you
01:05:45.381 --> 01:05:48.021
know, they're very good at keeping you
up to date with what you need to know
01:05:48.101 --> 01:05:52.341
in, in, in terms of legislation like
keeping children safe in education.
01:05:52.901 --> 01:05:56.021
You know, so you have to be really
knowledgeable about these things and
01:05:56.021 --> 01:05:59.241
have a really good understanding of
them and make sure your team are trained
01:05:59.481 --> 01:06:03.771
so that, you know, when you, when
you hit a hurdle like a young person
01:06:03.771 --> 01:06:06.461
complains about something, again,
you've got all the training in place,
01:06:06.461 --> 01:06:09.221
you've got the procedures in place,
you've got everything in place so that
01:06:09.951 --> 01:06:13.111
you're, you're protecting yourselves
and you're protecting your team.
01:06:13.111 --> 01:06:13.751
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:06:13.801 --> 01:06:15.681
Nicola Hepburn: Through
best practice really.
01:06:16.001 --> 01:06:19.841
I think, you know, that's a really
important thing is to make sure that
01:06:19.841 --> 01:06:23.261
you've got those protections in place
so that if ever there is an allegation
01:06:23.261 --> 01:06:28.371
or there's any questioning about, you
know, anything that you've, you've got
01:06:28.371 --> 01:06:33.371
all the processes in place to protect
not just safeguard the young people
01:06:33.371 --> 01:06:36.291
you're working with, but also safeguard
your own team and your own business.
01:06:37.293 --> 01:06:38.863
Rupert Isaacson: The other
safeguarding has to go two ways.
01:06:38.933 --> 01:06:39.523
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah It does, absolutely.
01:06:39.523 --> 01:06:43.203
And, and we keep a daily log and
we ke- keep a daily feedback sheet.
01:06:43.203 --> 01:06:45.793
So for our education program,
the young people will fill in a
01:06:45.833 --> 01:06:49.173
daily feedback sheet so we can
discuss what's happened that day.
01:06:49.173 --> 01:06:52.093
We give them feedback as
part of our, you know, way of
01:06:52.093 --> 01:06:53.693
working, our reflection process.
01:06:54.043 --> 01:06:57.463
And then we also keep, like, a, a
log of the students on a daily basis
01:06:57.473 --> 01:07:00.843
so that if somebody says, "Oh, this
happened on that day," we've got student
01:07:00.853 --> 01:07:03.973
feedback, we've got a log, we can
go back, we can see what's happened.
01:07:04.463 --> 01:07:07.043
You know, and I find those
tools really useful as well.
01:07:07.353 --> 01:07:08.913
Mm … so that we're, you know,
we're keeping track of everything.
01:07:08.913 --> 01:07:11.163
And then we've also got feedback
from the students, which is
01:07:11.163 --> 01:07:14.483
really, really important to help
shape the provision as well.
01:07:14.483 --> 01:07:18.933
Because if you have something that
keeps coming up on the feedback, you
01:07:18.933 --> 01:07:21.413
know, you can look at that and go,
"Hang on, you know, these students
01:07:21.413 --> 01:07:22.603
are all saying this is an issue.
01:07:22.603 --> 01:07:25.993
We need to do something about this, and we
need to shape the provision around them."
01:07:26.343 --> 01:07:30.013
So I think to provide a really
person-centered provision, you
01:07:30.013 --> 01:07:33.923
have to have feedback from the pe-
the people you're working with in
01:07:33.923 --> 01:07:35.553
order to shape it appropriately.
01:07:36.003 --> 01:07:36.813
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
01:07:36.823 --> 01:07:41.043
The, as you know, Horse Boys
entirely really the product of an
01:07:41.453 --> 01:07:43.133
interview that I had with Temp- Dr.
01:07:43.133 --> 01:07:46.523
Temple Grandin, who is autistic,
saying, "How does my son become you?"
01:07:46.933 --> 01:07:48.473
Her telling me some things to do.
01:07:48.503 --> 01:07:49.343
I di- I did 'em.
01:07:49.833 --> 01:07:50.653
They worked.
01:07:50.693 --> 01:07:53.913
Then we, we needed to find out why they
worked, so we went to neuroscientists,
01:07:53.943 --> 01:07:56.943
they explained, and then we
realized, oh, we can replicate this.
01:07:57.373 --> 01:08:02.733
And then Rowan himself, my son, ended
up on a panel for our mutual friend and
01:08:02.733 --> 01:08:07.553
colleague, Alex Northover, up in, who runs
Making Momentum up in Cheshire, in the
01:08:07.553 --> 01:08:13.643
northwest of the UK, who was at that time
doing her PhD at Manchester Metropolitan
01:08:13.643 --> 01:08:15.253
University and has just become Dr.
01:08:15.253 --> 01:08:17.223
Northover now, so all hail Dr.
01:08:17.223 --> 01:08:17.593
Alex.
01:08:18.023 --> 01:08:23.553
I- she got Rowan to be part of a panel
of autistic people talking about how
01:08:23.763 --> 01:08:28.073
equine therapies could be better from
an au- autism perspective, which is
01:08:28.973 --> 01:08:32.553
what everyone should have been doing
from the get-go, but, you know, okay,
01:08:32.943 --> 01:08:34.663
bre- best practice is catching up now.
01:08:35.103 --> 01:08:39.823
W- were there s- what have you seen,
things that you had your attention brought
01:08:39.843 --> 01:08:44.713
to that, where you made changes or where
you said, "Okay, let's adapt our program,"
01:08:44.973 --> 01:08:48.653
because people are asking for this, or
people are saying this, or people are,
01:08:49.183 --> 01:08:51.153
you know, expressing a desire for this.
01:08:51.153 --> 01:08:53.893
W- ca- can you talk, give us
a few examples of, of how you
01:08:53.893 --> 01:08:55.053
shaped your practice this way?
01:08:55.453 --> 01:08:58.813
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I guess my biggest
example would be, you know, when I did
01:08:59.083 --> 01:09:04.833
my, my master's research, my dissertation
for my master's degree was where I, I took
01:09:05.243 --> 01:09:10.133
three, two or three years of our feedback
from the students and analyzed it, and
01:09:10.133 --> 01:09:13.843
went through it all and worked out what
it was that was working for the students.
01:09:13.853 --> 01:09:16.453
And then we also interviewed
students as part of that as well.
01:09:16.803 --> 01:09:23.095
So that was my biggest piece of
research around- The voice of the
01:09:23.095 --> 01:09:26.645
people we're working with, and really
trying to understand what it was
01:09:26.675 --> 01:09:31.095
that they really needed and what they
benefited from, what worked for them.
01:09:31.415 --> 01:09:35.655
And we found, you know, very much
that it's about being able to trust
01:09:35.655 --> 01:09:39.965
the right people, being able to make
sure that their individual needs are
01:09:39.985 --> 01:09:41.765
met and that they feel listened to.
01:09:41.765 --> 01:09:43.345
And I think that was a really big thing.
01:09:43.355 --> 01:09:47.075
It's like, you know, they, they want
to feel that they're, they're listened
01:09:47.085 --> 01:09:48.745
to and that their voices are heard.
01:09:49.055 --> 01:09:52.095
And I think a lot of provision
can be shaped by people.
01:09:52.115 --> 01:09:55.005
This is what people need, so we're
gonna shape this provision around that.
01:09:55.335 --> 01:09:59.285
But are we really listening to, to
what the young people are saying,
01:09:59.285 --> 01:10:00.975
to what the participants are saying?
01:10:01.245 --> 01:10:04.545
So I think that feedback process for
me, putting those sheets in place
01:10:04.545 --> 01:10:07.165
and then really sitting down and
analyzing it, and then interviewing
01:10:07.165 --> 01:10:11.475
students, especially when it comes
to why they disengage from education.
01:10:11.475 --> 01:10:15.405
And I think a lot of the feedback
we got was because they actually
01:10:15.405 --> 01:10:17.305
found education traumatic.
01:10:17.665 --> 01:10:21.885
So, and we know that young teenage brains,
when they're in the state of trauma,
01:10:21.885 --> 01:10:24.645
that can have a, a, a lifelong impact.
01:10:24.765 --> 01:10:28.745
You know, from a neuroscience perspective,
you know, when you're still developing,
01:10:28.755 --> 01:10:32.215
your brain is still developing and you're
experiencing trauma at that time, that
01:10:32.215 --> 01:10:33.925
is gonna have a long-lasting impact.
01:10:34.415 --> 01:10:38.225
So often when students are
getting to alternative provisions,
01:10:38.225 --> 01:10:41.635
they're already, they've already
experienced educational trauma.
01:10:42.155 --> 01:10:45.045
So how do we, how do we change that?
01:10:45.055 --> 01:10:49.745
How do we make just being in education,
how do we take the trauma away?
01:10:49.755 --> 01:10:51.505
You know, that's, that's a huge thing.
01:10:51.785 --> 01:10:56.075
And, you know, I think that was a really
big learning for me, is like, you know,
01:10:56.125 --> 01:11:01.455
how, how do we make our environment
so that it doesn't cause any trauma,
01:11:01.455 --> 01:11:04.965
so that it addresses the trauma that's
already been caused and enables young
01:11:04.965 --> 01:11:10.345
people to trust people enough to
allow them to help them learn again?
01:11:10.835 --> 01:11:14.685
You know, it's such a huge part
of reengaging young people into
01:11:14.695 --> 01:11:16.605
learning, is building that trust.
01:11:16.885 --> 01:11:19.805
And I think sometimes people are
very focused on the academic.
01:11:19.805 --> 01:11:21.545
What can we get these
young people to achieve?
01:11:21.575 --> 01:11:23.415
Well, if they don't trust the
people they're working with or
01:11:23.415 --> 01:11:25.695
they don't trust the environment,
they're not gonna achieve anything.
01:11:26.075 --> 01:11:28.365
So it's building that trust
initially, I think, is…
01:11:28.955 --> 01:11:31.485
You know, that's been our
biggest learning really.
01:11:32.185 --> 01:11:32.595
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
01:11:33.225 --> 01:11:34.445
Let's have some examples.
01:11:34.635 --> 01:11:37.755
Let's say you're talking to
someone who's 22 years old.
01:11:37.755 --> 01:11:38.145
They're about to…
01:11:38.335 --> 01:11:41.965
They've just gotten their BHS
grade three, level three, whatever.
01:11:42.135 --> 01:11:48.029
They're about to go into
equine-assisted stuff What's
01:11:48.029 --> 01:11:53.999
your advice for how to build this
relationship, this type of environment?
01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:58.999
H- what's your advice for how to
create non-traumatic education?
01:12:00.059 --> 01:12:03.039
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I'd say
first of all is, you know, for us
01:12:03.039 --> 01:12:04.239
it's about being person-centered.
01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:06.779
So it's about making sure that you're
really listening to the needs of each
01:12:06.779 --> 01:12:11.399
individual and, and meeting it, and not
having your own expectations of what you
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:14.239
want them to achieve drive the process.
01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:15.369
It needs…
01:12:15.509 --> 01:12:18.459
You need to set them up for a success
in a way that's gonna work for
01:12:18.459 --> 01:12:21.829
them, not have your own ego and ex-
01:12:21.829 --> 01:12:22.489
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but how?
01:12:23.459 --> 01:12:23.599
Nicola Hepburn: Specific.
01:12:23.599 --> 01:12:24.829
Well, okay.
01:12:24.829 --> 01:12:28.189
Well, y- just, you know, really
listen to them and what hasn't
01:12:28.189 --> 01:12:29.639
worked for them in the past.
01:12:29.819 --> 01:12:32.379
Because, I mean, a- it's very
hard to give a, You know, because
01:12:32.379 --> 01:12:33.719
every individual is different.
01:12:33.729 --> 01:12:34.009
So- Right.
01:12:34.059 --> 01:12:35.759
Rupert Isaacson: But would you,
would you have a specific set of
01:12:35.759 --> 01:12:39.229
conversations, for example- Yeah … with
a new intake around this subject?
01:12:39.769 --> 01:12:40.689
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, absolutely.
01:12:40.689 --> 01:12:44.789
You know, you know, just speaking
to them about what hasn't worked and
01:12:44.789 --> 01:12:49.279
what they, what they found difficult
in, in other provisions, and what
01:12:49.729 --> 01:12:52.029
they find does work for them.
01:12:52.029 --> 01:12:53.819
And often speaking to
parents as well, you know.
01:12:53.819 --> 01:12:56.539
And I think this is something that,
that you really talked about a lot
01:12:56.539 --> 01:12:59.539
when I first started doing Horse Boy,
was that the parents are the experts.
01:12:59.769 --> 01:12:59.989
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
01:13:00.459 --> 01:13:02.889
Nicola Hepburn: And so speaking
to them about, you know…
01:13:03.409 --> 01:13:06.129
'Cause it may be that some
of the young people find they
01:13:06.129 --> 01:13:07.709
don't want to talk about it.
01:13:07.719 --> 01:13:10.049
They can even find talking
about it really distressing.
01:13:10.049 --> 01:13:10.629
So speak-
01:13:10.639 --> 01:13:11.189
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
01:13:11.189 --> 01:13:14.719
… Nicola Hepburn: you know, take a wider
environmental look at the whole situation.
01:13:14.999 --> 01:13:16.069
You know, what's g- happening at home?
01:13:16.379 --> 01:13:18.429
You know, have they got…
01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:20.799
I- is, is there a secure home life?
01:13:20.839 --> 01:13:23.019
Is there other people to support them?
01:13:23.019 --> 01:13:24.639
Do they have issues with siblings?
01:13:24.639 --> 01:13:30.099
You know, there can be a whole big
environmental impact from their lives
01:13:30.099 --> 01:13:33.049
that isn't just about education.
01:13:33.059 --> 01:13:35.409
You know, it's about looking at the
individual, looking at the bigger
01:13:35.409 --> 01:13:39.359
picture, and really understanding
that person and, and their needs.
01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:42.319
And they might not know what
will work for them as well.
01:13:42.739 --> 01:13:45.879
So it can be a case of sometimes
trying something, and if that doesn't
01:13:45.879 --> 01:13:47.159
work, then try something else.
01:13:47.169 --> 01:13:49.629
But you have to listen to them.
01:13:49.629 --> 01:13:52.759
Because if, if you feel, if they
feel that you're forcing them into
01:13:52.759 --> 01:13:56.319
something that they don't want to
do, and when they come to you…
01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:59.709
You know, for example, a good example that
we have is if somebody's really adamant
01:13:59.709 --> 01:14:02.419
they want to go home, we will say, "Okay.
01:14:02.929 --> 01:14:03.349
That's fine.
01:14:03.349 --> 01:14:04.929
If you really don't wanna
be here today and you really
01:14:04.929 --> 01:14:06.639
wanna go home, that's fine."
01:14:07.469 --> 01:14:08.369
And we'll let them go home.
01:14:08.369 --> 01:14:10.489
And then they might be like, "Oh,
well, I was expecting a battle.
01:14:10.489 --> 01:14:12.629
I was expecting you to
say that I have to stay."
01:14:13.329 --> 01:14:17.299
And then the next time- You know, they
say, "Oh, I really wanna go home."
01:14:17.299 --> 01:14:19.409
You say, "Well, do you, you know,
do you really wanna go home or
01:14:19.459 --> 01:14:22.559
could you maybe stay for another
hour, and then we have a think about
01:14:22.629 --> 01:14:23.919
how you're feeling after that?"
01:14:23.919 --> 01:14:26.559
But if they don't trust you
that if they really wanna go,
01:14:26.729 --> 01:14:27.679
you're not gonna let them go-
01:14:28.089 --> 01:14:28.559
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
01:14:28.909 --> 01:14:30.909
… Nicola Hepburn: you know, they can
disengage really easily, and then
01:14:30.909 --> 01:14:33.809
they won't come back 'cause they feel,
"Oh, well if I really, really need
01:14:33.809 --> 01:14:35.179
to leave, they're not gonna let me."
01:14:35.619 --> 01:14:39.579
So it's about building that trust
where the young person feels that if
01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:42.749
you say, "Yeah, okay, we'll do another
hour, but then if that, if you really
01:14:42.749 --> 01:14:45.579
wanna go home after an hour, you can,"
that you're gonna keep your word, and
01:14:45.579 --> 01:14:48.029
that you're not gonna force them to
stay when, when they don't want to.
01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:48.979
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:14:48.979 --> 01:14:53.449
This is, this is an interesting one,
because I think we're all told when we
01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:58.649
are supposed to be the practitioner,
we're all told that we must, we're
01:14:58.649 --> 01:15:03.639
supposed to keep some sort of level of
control, and of course, that's impossible.
01:15:04.289 --> 01:15:08.129
And of course, with non-verbal
autism, it's relatively s-
01:15:08.139 --> 01:15:15.209
straightforward because the feedback
is so uncompromisingly direct.
01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.489
It's like, you know, someone throws a
tantrum, takes off all their clothes, has
01:15:18.489 --> 01:15:22.739
a shit, you know, runs to the car, tries
to dive off the horse, whatever it is.
01:15:23.049 --> 01:15:28.379
It's like, noted loud and clear
we'll follow that, and then as you
01:15:28.379 --> 01:15:34.609
say, as one follows it, a trust is
built where you look up three months
01:15:34.609 --> 01:15:39.349
later and you're spending, you know,
three hours together doing things.
01:15:39.589 --> 01:15:44.439
But if they don't feel that you won't
listen in those early stages, even when
01:15:44.439 --> 01:15:48.159
what they're doing se- you know, might
seem completely bonkers and unreasonable
01:15:48.549 --> 01:15:52.749
you never get to that point where things
do become really reasonable and so.
01:15:52.989 --> 01:15:58.669
But this is much, much harder
when one's dealing with the verbal
01:15:58.669 --> 01:16:04.479
neurodiverse, because, you know, then
there's a higher degree of cognition.
01:16:04.489 --> 01:16:05.579
People know how to manipulate.
01:16:05.579 --> 01:16:07.649
People know how to push your buttons.
01:16:07.689 --> 01:16:12.949
People know how to fight the old
battles with the person that they
01:16:12.949 --> 01:16:15.529
don't like from their school,
and then project that onto you.
01:16:16.399 --> 01:16:21.569
And that's a tough position to find
yourself in because you're not as-
01:16:23.931 --> 01:16:26.451
Well, you know, with, say,
a non-verbal person, it's…
01:16:27.811 --> 01:16:35.641
I, I think, I wouldn't say easier, but
it's more straightforward that if we push
01:16:35.641 --> 01:16:37.371
in this direction, it will just backfire.
01:16:37.901 --> 01:16:42.451
And that there's a certain kind
of, hopefully, latitude in saying,
01:16:42.451 --> 01:16:46.111
"Well, okay, you know, let's
take a risk to try to follow.
01:16:46.701 --> 01:16:48.921
And in our experience it seems
to have worked, so let's do it."
01:16:49.151 --> 01:16:53.721
Much, much harder when one's dealing
with people who appear to be coming
01:16:53.721 --> 01:16:57.291
from a maybe neurodiverse, but at the
same time more neurotypical than, say,
01:16:57.351 --> 01:16:59.981
where my son was when he was four.
01:17:00.561 --> 01:17:03.331
But it's really the same process,
isn't it, that you've just described,
01:17:03.411 --> 01:17:07.301
of saying, "Okay, if you wanna
leave the premises, it's okay.
01:17:07.311 --> 01:17:10.791
If you wanna disengage, that's all right."
01:17:11.231 --> 01:17:14.841
And then at the same time, as you
also said, following their interests
01:17:15.241 --> 01:17:19.271
so that the place actually becomes so
interesting that they kinda wanna stay.
01:17:19.661 --> 01:17:21.721
But it's their choice, not there.
01:17:22.511 --> 01:17:23.691
Not a directive.
01:17:24.471 --> 01:17:24.541
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:17:25.051 --> 01:17:28.061
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
01:17:28.461 --> 01:17:33.361
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
01:17:33.361 --> 01:17:35.611
bit about the old master system.
01:17:36.076 --> 01:17:37.386
of dressage training.
01:17:37.426 --> 01:17:45.996
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
01:17:46.066 --> 01:17:52.346
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
01:17:52.356 --> 01:17:58.876
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
01:17:58.926 --> 01:18:01.696
well being of the horse and the rider.
01:18:01.756 --> 01:18:02.496
Intrigued?
01:18:02.696 --> 01:18:03.556
Like to know more?
01:18:04.426 --> 01:18:07.256
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
01:18:08.956 --> 01:18:10.646
Check out the free introduction course.
01:18:11.206 --> 01:18:11.726
Take it from there.
01:18:12.230 --> 01:18:18.370
You did say earlier that you maybe in
the early days, perhaps even now to
01:18:18.370 --> 01:18:23.520
some degree, were trying to create the
provision that you would have needed
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:26.130
when you were a teenage homeless person.
01:18:26.690 --> 01:18:27.830
Talk to us about that.
01:18:27.850 --> 01:18:29.850
How did you become a
teenage homeless person?
01:18:30.140 --> 01:18:32.490
This is really useful, I
think, for people to know.
01:18:33.030 --> 01:18:39.180
And how did you get out of it, and
how does it affect your practice,
01:18:39.240 --> 01:18:42.300
not just in obviously wanting to
create safe spaces, but how does it,
01:18:42.370 --> 01:18:44.060
how does it affect your practice?
01:18:44.110 --> 01:18:48.590
Has it creatively affect your
practice in terms of actually,
01:18:48.590 --> 01:18:50.170
yes, being that provision?
01:18:50.170 --> 01:18:52.860
'Cause I, I know in many ways
you are actually that provision,
01:18:53.030 --> 01:18:53.980
which you would have needed.
01:18:54.320 --> 01:18:55.640
H- how did it happen?
01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:56.770
How did you survive it?
01:18:57.740 --> 01:19:00.810
And yeah, h- how has it
informed what you do?
01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:02.680
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:05.680
Well, I mean, I, I was
homeless when I was 17.
01:19:06.340 --> 01:19:08.460
It wasn't, you know, a
massively dramatic story.
01:19:08.460 --> 01:19:10.770
I, you know, I kind of fell out
with my mom and got kicked out
01:19:10.770 --> 01:19:13.390
the house and, you know, my mom
and I had a difficult relationship
01:19:13.390 --> 01:19:15.070
following my parents' divorce.
01:19:15.730 --> 01:19:19.630
And my sister had gone off to,
to university, and it was just
01:19:19.630 --> 01:19:22.980
me and my mom, and she was going
through some difficult things.
01:19:22.980 --> 01:19:25.720
And as, as an adult, you can look
back now and, you know, I can
01:19:25.720 --> 01:19:28.160
understand more that she was going
through some difficult times, and
01:19:28.160 --> 01:19:29.580
her and I just didn't see eye to eye.
01:19:29.580 --> 01:19:30.780
We really didn't get on.
01:19:31.240 --> 01:19:36.700
And it resulted in me you know, being
asked to leave the house when I was 17.
01:19:36.740 --> 01:19:41.740
And, you know, I was kind of staying
on people's sofas and going from place
01:19:41.740 --> 01:19:45.580
to place, and then I found I found
a place in a, in a homeless hostel.
01:19:45.630 --> 01:19:49.030
But it was quite a culture shock
for me, because I'd come from
01:19:49.030 --> 01:19:52.720
this kind of Cotswold upbringing,
private schools, ponies.
01:19:52.720 --> 01:19:57.010
You know, we, we weren't like, you know,
we weren't massively wealthy or anything,
01:19:57.010 --> 01:20:02.180
but it was a very nice upbringing and it
was very sheltered, I guess, from reality.
01:20:02.180 --> 01:20:05.690
And then I move into a homeless hostel
in a big town, and the first week
01:20:05.690 --> 01:20:08.090
I was there, there was a dead body
found in the park around the corner.
01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:12.990
You know, and it was quite a, it was
quite a leap from, from where I'd been.
01:20:12.990 --> 01:20:14.880
But one of the things that I
found when I moved into the
01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:16.080
hostel, there were 20 girls there.
01:20:16.190 --> 01:20:20.700
It was run by a kind of Christian
housing association at the time,
01:20:20.700 --> 01:20:26.160
and a lot of the girls in there had
much different stories to mine, much
01:20:26.160 --> 01:20:29.600
different upbringings to mine, and it
actually made me realize how lucky I
01:20:29.600 --> 01:20:31.330
was at that time because there were…
01:20:31.670 --> 01:20:35.360
You know, I heard some very, harrowing
stories when I was there from other
01:20:35.360 --> 01:20:39.630
young people, you know, people
who've been abused by members of
01:20:39.630 --> 01:20:43.100
their family or, you know, just come
from these horrendous situations.
01:20:43.440 --> 01:20:47.490
And I think it really made me take stock
and go, "Actually, I've been quite lucky."
01:20:47.490 --> 01:20:48.990
You know, I've just
fallen out with my mum.
01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:52.280
This isn't, you know, these young peop-
these other women have been through a lot.
01:20:52.280 --> 01:20:56.950
But it was a real kind of sense
of everyone supporting each
01:20:56.950 --> 01:20:58.500
other within, within the hostels.
01:20:58.500 --> 01:21:00.820
None of us had any money
and we were all, you know,
01:21:02.830 --> 01:21:04.470
we were all in this sort of weird position
where we, we were all looking for places
01:21:04.470 --> 01:21:06.860
to live and we all helped each other out.
01:21:07.010 --> 01:21:10.010
And it was, you know, it was
quite a, quite an experience.
01:21:10.040 --> 01:21:14.160
And I think when I, when I left there
and I, you know, I did eventually leave
01:21:14.160 --> 01:21:17.800
there and managed to find a, a flat and
I st- I went, put myself back to college.
01:21:17.800 --> 01:21:23.010
And I just kind of realized
actually, you know, I am really
01:21:23.010 --> 01:21:26.870
lucky and I, I, I, I could be in
a much worse position than I am.
01:21:26.970 --> 01:21:31.020
And it really motivated me to want
to do something more with my life.
01:21:31.020 --> 01:21:34.040
And it took, you know, it took me a few
years really to get back on my feet.
01:21:34.430 --> 01:21:37.870
You know, I did various art courses,
which never came to anything.
01:21:37.870 --> 01:21:43.420
And then I eventually started
working for Blockbuster Video,
01:21:43.930 --> 01:21:46.980
and I was the store manager for
Blockbuster for about six years.
01:21:47.020 --> 01:21:50.140
And I started a business degree as
well, which I, again, I didn't finish.
01:21:50.140 --> 01:21:51.040
I didn't enjoy it.
01:21:51.490 --> 01:21:54.620
So I worked for Blockbuster for about
six years, and it was that I found a
01:21:54.620 --> 01:21:59.820
manager who actually believed in me, and
I got my first managerial role there.
01:21:59.890 --> 01:22:03.270
So she believed in me enough to give me
the store manager job, the area manager.
01:22:04.020 --> 01:22:07.570
And I think what really struck me
about that was up to that point, when
01:22:07.570 --> 01:22:11.840
you're a homeless teenager, nobody
really takes any notice of you.
01:22:11.850 --> 01:22:15.810
So I'd gone from kind of private
school, grammar school, where everyone's
01:22:15.810 --> 01:22:19.140
told you that you can be anything you
want to be if you work really hard.
01:22:19.560 --> 01:22:21.210
Then I found myself in a homeless hostel.
01:22:21.260 --> 01:22:24.050
I dropped out my A levels, found myself
in a homeless hostel where I was being
01:22:24.050 --> 01:22:26.960
told that I needed to go and get a job,
and I'd probably never amount to anything,
01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:28.460
and that I was a bit of a waste of space.
01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:29.330
So, and then-
01:22:29.410 --> 01:22:29.850
Rupert Isaacson: Who told you that?
01:22:30.320 --> 01:22:30.900
Who, who told you
01:22:32.210 --> 01:22:32.831
Nicola Hepburn: that you
were a waste of space?
01:22:32.831 --> 01:22:32.990
Oh, various people.
01:22:32.990 --> 01:22:33.520
I mean, the,
01:22:33.580 --> 01:22:36.030
Rupert Isaacson: Not the people c- running
the hostel surely, or, or were they?
01:22:36.030 --> 01:22:36.140
The people in the
01:22:36.410 --> 01:22:40.910
Nicola Hepburn: hostel were very,
They were very kind of, I don't
01:22:40.910 --> 01:22:42.190
know how to say it politely.
01:22:42.940 --> 01:22:43.130
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
01:22:43.480 --> 01:22:44.400
Say it, say it how you wanna say it.
01:22:44.400 --> 01:22:44.650
The, the
01:22:45.200 --> 01:22:48.310
Nicola Hepburn: people running the hostel
were very judgmental and- Okay … kind
01:22:48.310 --> 01:22:52.670
of preachy, and they felt that they
were helping shape these delinquent
01:22:52.700 --> 01:22:54.250
young women into something better.
01:22:54.250 --> 01:22:55.860
That's how it kind of felt.
01:22:56.110 --> 01:22:58.360
But, you know, this is going
back to the '90s, you know?
01:22:58.540 --> 01:22:58.660
Yeah.
01:22:58.950 --> 01:22:59.590
So very different.
01:22:59.590 --> 01:23:02.690
It was a very different time,
you know, 'cause I think children
01:23:02.730 --> 01:23:03.950
are safeguarded much more now.
01:23:03.950 --> 01:23:07.760
When you're 17, you're not really classed
as an adult now, whereas I felt like I
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.510
was treated very much like an adult then.
01:23:09.940 --> 01:23:13.970
And you know, you're kind of told, "Oh,
well, you need to buck y- buck yourself
01:23:13.970 --> 01:23:17.426
up," and you know, "Improve yourself,"
and, you know, you, you're kind of…
01:23:17.426 --> 01:23:20.340
You, you have this sense of judgment
that you're homeless because of
01:23:20.340 --> 01:23:24.090
something that is your fault and you
know, that you need to do better.
01:23:24.670 --> 01:23:27.330
And I, you know, and at that
point I was, I was involved with
01:23:27.330 --> 01:23:30.030
a training organization and they
were trying to get me to take,
01:23:30.040 --> 01:23:32.914
like- Any old job, an admin job.
01:23:32.924 --> 01:23:35.154
But I wasn't really interested in
admin at all, and it wasn't something
01:23:35.154 --> 01:23:37.264
I was very good at, but it was
just, "No, this is all you can do.
01:23:37.264 --> 01:23:38.284
You need to go and do it."
01:23:38.284 --> 01:23:42.004
And there was no, there was no real … I
didn't feel they were particularly
01:23:42.014 --> 01:23:43.424
interested in me as an individual.
01:23:43.484 --> 01:23:47.764
It was just I was a I was a statistic
that needed to be moved into the next
01:23:47.764 --> 01:23:50.404
level of employment or whatever to
01:23:50.514 --> 01:23:51.307
You know, I don't know.
01:23:51.307 --> 01:23:54.064
It was very, I didn't feel that
anyone was that particularly
01:23:54.074 --> 01:23:55.634
interested in me compared to- How long
01:23:55.634 --> 01:23:56.414
Rupert Isaacson: were you there for?
01:23:56.704 --> 01:23:57.484
… Nicola Hepburn: previously.
01:23:57.814 --> 01:24:02.380
I was in the homeless hostel for
probably It was under a year.
01:24:02.790 --> 01:24:06.060
I wasn't there for, you
know, a very long time.
01:24:06.120 --> 01:24:09.340
And I did manage to find myself a
flat and, and move out of there.
01:24:09.870 --> 01:24:12.980
But yeah, I mean, it was a, it
was a difficult time obviously.
01:24:12.980 --> 01:24:15.620
I spent my 18th birthday
there, which wasn't ideal.
01:24:16.030 --> 01:24:16.292
You know- How
01:24:16.292 --> 01:24:17.130
Rupert Isaacson: did you find a place?
01:24:17.130 --> 01:24:18.090
How did you luck into it?
01:24:18.130 --> 01:24:21.200
Because you know, as judgemental as
it might have been, worse things would
01:24:21.200 --> 01:24:22.580
have happened on the street, I'm sure.
01:24:22.580 --> 01:24:23.720
Nicola Hepburn: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
01:24:23.800 --> 01:24:24.330
Rupert Isaacson: So-
01:24:24.610 --> 01:24:26.440
Nicola Hepburn: I was- Yeah … I
was grateful, but it, it was
01:24:26.440 --> 01:24:27.430
an interesting experience.
01:24:27.470 --> 01:24:31.220
Well, initially I'd had a social
worker who'd been, who'd been
01:24:31.220 --> 01:24:32.740
involved with the situation.
01:24:32.740 --> 01:24:35.700
But then that seemed to come to an
end, and then there was a, a local
01:24:35.700 --> 01:24:39.660
charity called the Young Homeless
Project that I got in touch with, and
01:24:39.660 --> 01:24:42.260
I went there, and they were the people
who put me in touch with the hostel.
01:24:42.260 --> 01:24:43.090
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, okay.
01:24:43.150 --> 01:24:48.120
So you were also wise enough to know
that there was a sort of chain of
01:24:49.160 --> 01:24:54.040
contact and that you could attach
yourself to, to find solutions.
01:24:54.280 --> 01:24:54.520
Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
01:24:54.620 --> 01:24:56.820
Rupert Isaacson: C- you know, as you
say, you, you know, you, you, you'd
01:24:56.820 --> 01:24:58.760
come from a, an educated background.
01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:00.760
You were taught to some
degree how to problem solve.
01:25:00.770 --> 01:25:00.790
Yeah.
01:25:01.290 --> 01:25:03.460
Did you end up sleeping
rough for any of it?
01:25:03.530 --> 01:25:06.270
And if so, how did you survive that?
01:25:06.280 --> 01:25:10.230
Because people must have attempted to
prey on you when, when that happened.
01:25:10.930 --> 01:25:14.210
Nicola Hepburn: It wasn't as much sleeping
rough as sofa surfing at friends' houses.
01:25:14.260 --> 01:25:14.380
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
01:25:15.180 --> 01:25:18.190
Nicola Hepburn: That was kind of
difficult because I was, obviously, I
01:25:18.190 --> 01:25:19.630
was very vulnerable at that point- Mm-hmm
01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:20.220
… Rupert Isaacson: and
01:25:20.400 --> 01:25:23.720
Nicola Hepburn: very reliant on
the kindness of others, and that
01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:25.810
kindness only goes so far, I think.
01:25:25.850 --> 01:25:28.110
You know, once you're friends with
somebody and you've been sleeping at their
01:25:28.110 --> 01:25:31.270
house for two weeks, their parents are
a bit like, "Well-" Sure … you know.
01:25:31.270 --> 01:25:33.010
And I, I remember one social services
ask, actually asking one of my
01:25:36.250 --> 01:25:38.610
friend's parents if they'd take
me in, and they were just like,
01:25:38.610 --> 01:25:40.930
"Well, we don't have the room and
we can't afford it," you know?
01:25:41.290 --> 01:25:45.340
So you know, it's that feeling, I felt
like a bit of a burden on everybody
01:25:45.380 --> 01:25:48.630
really, and that was why in the end I
decided that I had to find somewhere
01:25:48.630 --> 01:25:52.390
else to go because it was you know, I was
really relying on the kindness of others.
01:25:52.390 --> 01:25:52.620
Mm.
01:25:52.620 --> 01:25:55.640
And there'd be times when somebody,
you know, would say, "Yeah, you
01:25:55.640 --> 01:25:56.630
can come and stay at my house."
01:25:56.640 --> 01:25:59.880
And then, you know, maybe their
parents would be like, "Who's this
01:25:59.880 --> 01:26:00.610
strange girl you've brought home?
01:26:00.610 --> 01:26:02.070
Where does she live?
01:26:02.070 --> 01:26:02.620
Who is she?
01:26:02.620 --> 01:26:03.660
No, she can't stay.
01:26:03.660 --> 01:26:04.280
She needs to go."
01:26:04.280 --> 01:26:06.500
And then I'd have to find
somewhere else to stay.
01:26:06.500 --> 01:26:10.850
So yeah, it w- it was, it was very
much I, you know, I was just trying
01:26:10.850 --> 01:26:12.290
to find places that were safe.
01:26:12.300 --> 01:26:13.010
Mm-hmm.
01:26:13.070 --> 01:26:15.200
Yeah, I did feel very
vulnerable at that time.
01:26:15.300 --> 01:26:17.160
And I think when I was in the hostel
I was very vulnerable because I
01:26:17.160 --> 01:26:17.650
think a lot of local people knew that
01:26:20.280 --> 01:26:23.760
was a hostel full of
homeless girls, you know?
01:26:24.200 --> 01:26:29.758
So- You know, without going into too much
detail, I think certain, certain people
01:26:29.758 --> 01:26:36.968
would be interested in a, a hostel full
of young girls who had no support systems.
01:26:36.968 --> 01:26:38.408
You know, they were all very vulnerable.
01:26:38.688 --> 01:26:38.978
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
01:26:39.078 --> 01:26:42.818
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, you know, and I
think, But like I say, I, I definitely
01:26:42.818 --> 01:26:47.958
realized when I got into the hostel
that I'd been very lucky compared to
01:26:47.958 --> 01:26:51.198
some other young people who'd been
through some really horrendous things.
01:26:51.828 --> 01:26:54.698
Rupert Isaacson: It's encouraging to
me to hear that when you went in there
01:26:54.748 --> 01:27:00.118
and there were girls from rougher
backgrounds that they didn't clique
01:27:00.118 --> 01:27:04.428
up against you because you were a nice
girl sort of thing from a, a nice home
01:27:04.428 --> 01:27:08.128
who'd fallen into, you know, hard times.
01:27:08.588 --> 01:27:11.988
'Cause as you know, the class system in
English, in England can be unforgiving,
01:27:12.118 --> 01:27:14.528
you know, in every direction.
01:27:15.148 --> 01:27:21.872
Why do you think that- It turned
out so supportive and so sisterly.
01:27:21.872 --> 01:27:21.902
Well,
01:27:23.192 --> 01:27:26.672
Nicola Hepburn: I think it, it just
came down to the fact that we all were
01:27:26.672 --> 01:27:32.642
in the same boat, and we all got the
each other, you know, we all understood.
01:27:32.662 --> 01:27:33.802
None of us wanted to be there.
01:27:34.232 --> 01:27:35.602
It wasn't our, you know,
none of us were like-
01:27:35.602 --> 01:27:37.802
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but sometimes,
sometimes those, those situations
01:27:37.802 --> 01:27:39.232
can be quite dog-eat-dog as well.
01:27:39.452 --> 01:27:39.472
Yeah.
01:27:39.482 --> 01:27:41.392
Not necessarily people
having each other's backs.
01:27:41.402 --> 01:27:44.132
So what, what do you think
was the dynamic there that-
01:27:45.152 --> 01:27:46.042
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I just think we all-
01:27:46.142 --> 01:27:46.562
… Rupert Isaacson: made it so positive?
01:27:46.962 --> 01:27:49.832
Nicola Hepburn: You know, we all
wanted each other to be okay.
01:27:49.832 --> 01:27:52.482
And I, I just think- Mm … I mean, maybe
it would've been different if it had been
01:27:52.482 --> 01:27:54.022
a different group of girls, I don't know.
01:27:54.372 --> 01:27:57.002
I just think when I was there,
they were a group of us, and we all
01:27:57.002 --> 01:27:58.532
used to go out together as well.
01:27:58.532 --> 01:28:02.822
You know, we'd go out and hang out
together, and it was, it was our
01:28:02.822 --> 01:28:05.482
social network- Mm … time as well.
01:28:05.482 --> 01:28:09.372
And I think we all made sure that
we all got home okay, you know,
01:28:09.562 --> 01:28:12.442
'cause I think if you, if you're
going out as a group of girls in a,
01:28:12.442 --> 01:28:14.732
in a town as well, you know, the…
01:28:14.772 --> 01:28:17.752
I think there was just this sense of
us needing to look after each other.
01:28:17.752 --> 01:28:19.212
I don't really know where that came from.
01:28:19.212 --> 01:28:19.782
I can't really- Mm.
01:28:20.392 --> 01:28:21.342
I can't really answer that.
01:28:21.342 --> 01:28:23.662
But yeah, it was I think it
was just the sense of we're
01:28:23.662 --> 01:28:25.092
all in this together, you know?
01:28:25.092 --> 01:28:25.712
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:28:25.762 --> 01:28:27.422
It's encouraging, though,
to me, to hear that.
01:28:27.472 --> 01:28:31.422
I mean, it, it, it restores one's faith.
01:28:32.032 --> 01:28:36.002
Did you maintain touch with any
of, any of those girls after you?
01:28:36.472 --> 01:28:38.202
Or did you all just disappear, fragment?
01:28:38.202 --> 01:28:38.742
Nicola Hepburn: No.
01:28:38.742 --> 01:28:39.322
No, we all…
01:28:39.332 --> 01:28:41.442
No, I didn't keep in touch
with anybody from that.
01:28:41.442 --> 01:28:44.832
I still kept in touch with some people who
I made friends with later- Mm … after
01:28:44.832 --> 01:28:47.622
I moved out, but no, not, not the
group of girls that were in there.
01:28:48.042 --> 01:28:51.002
No, I think we all just very much
went, went our separate ways.
01:28:51.382 --> 01:28:53.862
So- Yeah … you know, I've got no
idea what any of them are doing now.
01:28:53.862 --> 01:28:55.792
That would be quite interesting to know.
01:28:55.892 --> 01:28:59.902
But, but yeah, it was, it was, you
know, you say even though I was a
01:28:59.902 --> 01:29:03.652
homeless teenager, it, and it was
a difficult time, it wasn't like
01:29:05.092 --> 01:29:07.812
sleeping rough on the streets, you
know, it wasn't that kind of thing.
01:29:07.922 --> 01:29:10.332
But the hostel was a very, you
know, an interesting place.
01:29:10.332 --> 01:29:14.022
And then I think when I, when I left
there, you know, I, I really did
01:29:14.112 --> 01:29:15.372
want to make something of myself.
01:29:15.382 --> 01:29:18.432
And like I say, I ended up, you know,
working at Blockbusters, and then I had
01:29:18.462 --> 01:29:20.252
the opportunity to become a manager.
01:29:20.352 --> 01:29:24.032
And it was that one person who really
believed in me and saw something in me
01:29:24.042 --> 01:29:28.182
and gave me an opportunity, and I'm still
very thankful to her because I think she
01:29:28.182 --> 01:29:33.102
was somebody who really mentored me and
saw something in me and, and enabled me to
01:29:33.102 --> 01:29:37.420
have a career where- I wasn't, you know,
I wasn't just a shop assistant anymore.
01:29:37.420 --> 01:29:40.090
Now I was a manager, and then I
was managing multiple stores, and
01:29:40.090 --> 01:29:43.020
it gave me confidence, and it gave
me back- Mm … my confidence in
01:29:43.020 --> 01:29:44.900
myself and my ability to achieve.
01:29:45.490 --> 01:29:49.350
And then it was, you know, kind of
from that role, you know, that I
01:29:49.350 --> 01:29:52.400
went on then to find out about equine
facilitated learning, and I was
01:29:52.400 --> 01:29:55.570
able to buy my first horse through
having a management job, you know?
01:29:55.570 --> 01:30:00.040
And if I think about where I was at
17, in a homeless hostel, to then
01:30:00.040 --> 01:30:03.230
being in my 20s, having a management
job, and being able to buy myself
01:30:03.230 --> 01:30:06.616
a horse, you know, that 17-year-old
would have dreamed of that, you know?
01:30:06.616 --> 01:30:06.750
And it…
01:30:06.750 --> 01:30:11.310
That being around horses again because it
was such a safe space for me as a child.
01:30:11.360 --> 01:30:14.960
So I think that was a real focus
for me, was getting a horse, having
01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:16.850
that, having that feeling again.
01:30:16.850 --> 01:30:19.060
And then that led me
back into this, you know?
01:30:19.060 --> 01:30:22.700
And so, you know, it was then that
I kind of quit my job and went
01:30:22.700 --> 01:30:25.790
back to university and did a degree
and decided to start the business.
01:30:26.240 --> 01:30:29.740
So it was yeah, it was very
much a passion of mine to
01:30:29.740 --> 01:30:31.870
always aspire to having a horse.
01:30:31.870 --> 01:30:33.010
That was always my…
01:30:33.310 --> 01:30:37.430
one of my driving things, was if I n- if I
can, if I can afford a horse, I know I've,
01:30:37.480 --> 01:30:38.670
I've made it kind of thing, you know?
01:30:40.190 --> 01:30:40.490
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:30:40.490 --> 01:30:42.630
And, and to, to a large degree,
I'd say that's true, right?
01:30:42.660 --> 01:30:45.190
Because, well, for all
the obvious reasons.
01:30:45.610 --> 01:30:48.570
It's so interesting to
listen to that trajectory.
01:30:49.240 --> 01:30:53.110
W- what, what it sounds to me like a
little bit, you know, when you listen,
01:30:53.620 --> 01:30:57.420
think about in terms of archetypes
and hero's journeys, know y- you're
01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:01.000
on a very definite hero's journey at
that point, and, or heroine's journey.
01:31:01.510 --> 01:31:06.250
And w- you know, all of the aspects
of the hero's journey are there, like
01:31:06.260 --> 01:31:08.570
y- you get drawn into it reluctantly.
01:31:08.570 --> 01:31:13.330
You don't, you don't wanna find yourself
in the hostel, but there you are.
01:31:14.070 --> 01:31:19.990
And then there's a sort of perhaps
a slightly despairing time w- where
01:31:19.990 --> 01:31:21.430
there's a sort of death of the ego.
01:31:21.480 --> 01:31:21.800
You know?
01:31:21.820 --> 01:31:24.880
It's like, well, I'm a, I'm a nice girl
from an upper middle class background.
01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:27.480
I'm in the Cotswolds, and I
have horses and I'm g- off to
01:31:27.480 --> 01:31:28.510
university and I'm gonna do…
01:31:29.040 --> 01:31:32.270
And then, no I've sort of lost my status.
01:31:33.110 --> 01:31:36.730
Here are these people treating
me as if I'm a, a loser.
01:31:37.560 --> 01:31:40.980
And I've just gotta kinda deal with that.
01:31:41.810 --> 01:31:43.310
But I've also gotta find the tools.
01:31:43.310 --> 01:31:45.850
I've gotta find my
Yoda, as Luke Skywalker.
01:31:45.850 --> 01:31:52.320
I've gotta find my way out
of the White Witch's dungeon.
01:31:52.320 --> 01:31:54.920
I've got to acquire some skills here.
01:31:55.430 --> 01:32:02.374
And it's interesting that- Listening to
the story, one of the skills that you
01:32:02.524 --> 01:32:10.384
definitely seem to have acquired is the
ability to create community and tribe,
01:32:11.284 --> 01:32:16.074
which that's why I was intrigued, I think,
by the story of the relationship between
01:32:16.074 --> 01:32:22.344
the girls in the hostel, that it wasn't
hostile and competitive and coming from
01:32:22.344 --> 01:32:25.564
a sort of scarcity, "Well, if, if this
girl gets something then I don't get…"
01:32:25.814 --> 01:32:28.094
That you actually all kind
of had each other's backs.
01:32:28.914 --> 01:32:32.594
But that is a skill to learn
because it can of course go
01:32:32.594 --> 01:32:34.134
differently in people's experiences.
01:32:34.864 --> 01:32:36.884
And of course gratitude,
learning gratitude.
01:32:36.884 --> 01:32:41.664
Well, actually, yeah, I, I
am able to solve problems.
01:32:41.664 --> 01:32:50.114
I am able to reap from the good things of
my background, even if it's ended up here.
01:32:50.124 --> 01:32:53.344
You know, I'm, I'm lucky that a
certain number of these skills
01:32:53.344 --> 01:32:54.454
have been implanted in me.
01:32:55.454 --> 01:32:56.564
How can I use them?
01:32:57.334 --> 01:33:00.364
And it is, it's an inspiring hero's
journey, you know, that, and as you
01:33:00.364 --> 01:33:03.954
say, it sort of your, your, your
purchase of the horse is the sort of
01:33:04.354 --> 01:33:07.314
the horse, you ride the horse, you
know, either back into Narnia or out of
01:33:07.314 --> 01:33:11.824
Narnia depending on which way you think
the, the White Witch is, is heading.
01:33:12.154 --> 01:33:14.514
And where Aslan happens to be currently.
01:33:16.084 --> 01:33:21.644
And now here you are absolutely giving
back on this sort of institutional level.
01:33:21.964 --> 01:33:26.644
And for those people who are listening,
I was just at Nikki's Place about two
01:33:26.644 --> 01:33:33.184
weeks ago and looking around at this
incredible facility with these very
01:33:33.184 --> 01:33:36.764
dedicated people, and there's the
wakeboard lakes over there, and there
01:33:36.764 --> 01:33:39.794
are the beautiful trails where you
can go and check out deer and hares.
01:33:40.244 --> 01:33:43.034
And there are the, you know,
there's the arena and there's the
01:33:43.034 --> 01:33:47.274
round pen and there's Nikki, you
know, Captain Nikki doing her thing
01:33:47.794 --> 01:33:51.294
steering the ship and c- commanding
the ship and in a very sweet way
01:33:53.452 --> 01:33:58.332
So hats off, you know, it,
it's, it's really impressive.
01:33:58.632 --> 01:34:03.362
A lot of people from horsey backgrounds
don't necessarily have a story like that.
01:34:03.692 --> 01:34:09.112
And I think it's therefore tricky for
them sometimes to empathize with people
01:34:09.112 --> 01:34:14.622
who are less fortunate less advantaged
because it, you know, it, it can be a bit
01:34:14.622 --> 01:34:18.022
of an, as you say, a bit of a sheltering,
bit of an insulating thing, as well as
01:34:18.022 --> 01:34:28.714
giving great life skills You now sort
of create many young women who do get to
01:34:28.714 --> 01:34:35.164
learn these problem-solving skills through
horses and education, just like you did.
01:34:35.944 --> 01:34:39.524
And now you're seeing some of them
going off and entering the workforce and
01:34:40.074 --> 01:34:46.794
getting off to college and so on, which
is, must make your heart feel fulfilled.
01:34:47.084 --> 01:34:48.894
What's next for you?
01:34:48.954 --> 01:34:50.714
What's, where do you want to take this?
01:34:50.714 --> 01:34:51.744
Where do you want to develop it?
01:34:51.744 --> 01:34:52.344
You're still young.
01:34:52.354 --> 01:34:57.094
You're still, you know, you could
argue, at the start of things because
01:34:57.104 --> 01:35:01.604
things have reached a certain maturity.
01:35:02.044 --> 01:35:04.174
But as we know, that's always just
the beginning of the next stage.
01:35:04.444 --> 01:35:06.354
W- w- where do you wanna go from here?
01:35:07.844 --> 01:35:10.894
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you
know, kind of extending the education
01:35:10.954 --> 01:35:11.994
program and the therapeutic work.
01:35:11.994 --> 01:35:13.524
I'm always going to want to do that.
01:35:13.624 --> 01:35:16.264
You know, but I've been thinking
recently a lot about wellness work
01:35:16.264 --> 01:35:17.734
and about working with people.
01:35:18.154 --> 01:35:21.364
I think wellness is a really big
thing at the moment about creating
01:35:21.364 --> 01:35:23.704
wellness opportunities for, you know-
01:35:25.044 --> 01:35:26.144
Rupert Isaacson: For yourself
'cause you're so tired.
01:35:27.604 --> 01:35:27.754
But
01:35:30.414 --> 01:35:32.434
now you can get stressed
providing wellness, yeah.
01:35:32.434 --> 01:35:32.814
Yeah.
01:35:32.814 --> 01:35:33.644
Nicola Hepburn: But I think, you know,
just like wellness for, you know,
01:35:33.644 --> 01:35:34.234
maybe for women, you know, middle-aged
women, I think there's a lot- Mm-hmm
01:35:35.594 --> 01:35:35.974
um, you know, there's
01:35:41.384 --> 01:35:47.324
a lot of awareness around menopause
and around you know, stress and around,
01:35:47.374 --> 01:35:48.604
you know, various different things.
01:35:48.604 --> 01:35:52.624
Even grief or, you know, I'm, I'm
interested in working with people who,
01:35:53.744 --> 01:35:56.734
you know, maybe a m- a family member has
cancer or they have cancer, you know.
01:35:56.734 --> 01:35:59.044
I think there's a lot of other things
like that that I haven't explored
01:35:59.054 --> 01:36:01.844
with the business that I'd like to
look at, you know, from more of a
01:36:01.844 --> 01:36:05.214
wellness perspective and how being
around the horses can benefit people-
01:36:05.474 --> 01:36:05.834
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
01:36:05.974 --> 01:36:07.374
Nicola Hepburn: um, from that perspective.
01:36:07.404 --> 01:36:11.304
And I think maybe I'm doing it
again, you know, maybe it's creating
01:36:11.304 --> 01:36:15.724
the the environment, you know,
that, that I'd like to be in.
01:36:15.734 --> 01:36:20.024
So I, I think it's, whatever we do in,
in this work, there's always an element
01:36:20.184 --> 01:36:22.284
of personal influence in it, isn't there?
01:36:22.284 --> 01:36:22.874
So I think-
01:36:22.914 --> 01:36:26.104
Rupert Isaacson: There has to
be, otherwise, w- w- in a funny
01:36:26.104 --> 01:36:27.684
way, what else are you, what,
what else are you drawing on?
01:36:28.124 --> 01:36:28.354
Yeah.
01:36:28.924 --> 01:36:29.534
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, yeah.
01:36:29.534 --> 01:36:30.184
Exactly.
01:36:30.214 --> 01:36:35.764
So I think maybe, I think as, you know, as
I've developed and I've, you know, changed
01:36:35.764 --> 01:36:38.824
it, you know, my, my kind of things
that I'm interested in change as well.
01:36:38.824 --> 01:36:42.524
But I think the education part of
what we do is something that I want to
01:36:42.554 --> 01:36:45.344
continue with, but I'm, you know, I'm
really looking at a lot of wellness
01:36:45.344 --> 01:36:49.024
stuff at the moment as well and how
we can, how we can work in that way.
01:36:49.214 --> 01:36:51.134
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that
you bring up menopause because, you
01:36:51.134 --> 01:36:54.144
know, in, I think a lot of people who'll
be listening to this or watching this
01:36:54.184 --> 01:36:58.354
are probably women either approaching
menopause or in menopause, or perhaps on
01:36:58.354 --> 01:37:02.966
the other side of menopause, and it seems
to hit everybody differently But what we
01:37:02.966 --> 01:37:05.446
know is it hits ev- 50% of the population.
01:37:05.986 --> 01:37:08.876
You could, I think, argue to some
degree that it hits 100% of the
01:37:08.876 --> 01:37:12.286
population because there is, to some
degree, a male menopause as well.
01:37:12.286 --> 01:37:14.796
It's not, doesn't manifest
in quite the same way.
01:37:15.266 --> 01:37:18.116
And men are generally very
silent about how they suffer.
01:37:18.486 --> 01:37:22.246
But there's a sort of retreat into,
can be a retreat into loneliness.
01:37:22.246 --> 01:37:23.876
There can be a retreat into ill health.
01:37:24.166 --> 01:37:31.556
There can be a retreat into despair,
which you see men go into in their
01:37:31.576 --> 01:37:33.426
50s sometimes, and early 60s.
01:37:33.426 --> 01:37:40.246
And then when they retire and their
job is no longer their identity there
01:37:40.246 --> 01:37:41.716
can sometimes be a huge collapse.
01:37:42.186 --> 01:37:45.426
And then we've got, you know, young
men loneliness which is a whole thing.
01:37:45.736 --> 01:37:52.466
But a lot of the women I know, your
colleagues, my colleagues right when the
01:37:54.374 --> 01:38:01.394
Success of the equine-assisted program
kicks in and things become even more
01:38:01.394 --> 01:38:05.374
demanding because now you have staff
to look after you and you have a large
01:38:05.374 --> 01:38:08.574
program and a lot more responsibility,
and you've got to fundraise, and
01:38:08.574 --> 01:38:09.464
you, you know, blah, blah, blah.
01:38:09.784 --> 01:38:12.984
That's, of course, when your body
goes, "Oh, surprise," you know.
01:38:13.094 --> 01:38:15.434
We're gonna make things tricky now.
01:38:15.724 --> 01:38:17.244
And you're just gonna
have to power through.
01:38:17.904 --> 01:38:23.064
Some people seem to go through
it with relatively little upset.
01:38:23.144 --> 01:38:26.594
Some people, it hits them like a freight
train, and all points in between.
01:38:27.874 --> 01:38:29.674
W- what do you think is the need?
01:38:29.684 --> 01:38:32.234
What do you, you know, I don't
know whether you're menopausal,
01:38:32.234 --> 01:38:37.164
perimenopausal, or whatever, but y-
you're, it- it- it- it's- it's gonna
01:38:37.164 --> 01:38:39.074
be part of your reality whichever.
01:38:39.314 --> 01:38:47.502
W- what do you feel would be, as
a woman, the, the, the sort of, is
01:38:47.502 --> 01:38:51.134
there, is there a sort of bottom
line need that you think cou- sh-
01:38:51.134 --> 01:38:52.384
could and should be addressed there?
01:38:53.104 --> 01:38:58.174
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know,
it's f- I think it's very much around
01:38:58.474 --> 01:39:01.514
people having, again, it's back to a
safe space to go where they can talk
01:39:01.514 --> 01:39:05.824
to other women, and it can, people
understand, and people can empathize
01:39:05.834 --> 01:39:08.214
with each other and share experiences.
01:39:08.724 --> 01:39:12.454
You know, I think, I think obviously
there's a need for education.
01:39:12.454 --> 01:39:17.744
I think there's a lot of stigma around
HRT, and there's still stigma around, you
01:39:18.984 --> 01:39:19.154
know- Mm-hmm … talking about menopause.
01:39:19.154 --> 01:39:23.994
And you know, I think actually you
know, Louise Newson in the, in the UK,
01:39:23.994 --> 01:39:29.414
she's done a lot of work around making
information about menopause much more
01:39:29.414 --> 01:39:34.424
accessible, and people being able to,
you know, have the right medication.
01:39:34.424 --> 01:39:40.304
And so I think it's that kind of need for
people to be able to talk about it with
01:39:40.314 --> 01:39:45.524
people and be able to get good advice
and good information and feel supported.
01:39:45.524 --> 01:39:49.394
I think really where the horses come
in and the, the wellness work is around
01:39:49.454 --> 01:39:54.644
you know, a safe space where people can,
can go, and if they're having a shit
01:39:54.644 --> 01:39:56.084
day, say, "I'm having a really crap day.
01:39:56.084 --> 01:39:58.204
I'm feeling like this," and
there's gonna be no judgment.
01:39:58.204 --> 01:40:00.294
There's gonna be
understanding and support.
01:40:00.324 --> 01:40:04.504
And you know, just again,
a person-centered provision
01:40:04.504 --> 01:40:06.334
where people feel listened to.
01:40:06.384 --> 01:40:09.834
And I think it's the same, it's
the same kind of approach but just
01:40:09.954 --> 01:40:11.574
to a different demographic really.
01:40:11.654 --> 01:40:12.024
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
01:40:12.164 --> 01:40:12.484
Mm.
01:40:13.214 --> 01:40:17.174
I'm f- gonna be fascinated
to see how it manifests.
01:40:17.174 --> 01:40:19.434
And, and then one that was, well,
lovely thing is you've got a lovely
01:40:19.434 --> 01:40:20.844
cold lake there you can all jump into.
01:40:21.144 --> 01:40:26.204
Our, our our mutual friend and colleague,
Terry Brosnan, you know, who runs
01:40:26.244 --> 01:40:29.424
the big Horse Boy center at, at, in,
outside Dublin, at Stuart's Care.
01:40:29.774 --> 01:40:31.934
She says, "Rupert, thank God
for cold water swimming."
01:40:32.224 --> 01:40:35.044
You know, but it, often these
things actually do come down very
01:40:35.044 --> 01:40:39.498
much to the physical too, like one
needs- Okay, you're overheating.
01:40:39.508 --> 01:40:40.928
What, what are we gonna do about this?
01:40:40.948 --> 01:40:45.088
It's, it's, w- as you know, as we're
sitting here in summer 2026, and
01:40:45.088 --> 01:40:49.348
we're dealing with climate warming
temperatures, you know, and you're
01:40:49.348 --> 01:40:53.128
out there standing in that arena,
and you're suffering hot flashes.
01:40:53.128 --> 01:40:53.638
What are you gonna do?
01:40:53.648 --> 01:40:57.758
Like, what, what is, what can we
actually physically do to cool down?
01:40:57.758 --> 01:40:59.998
What can we do to feel more
comfortable, feel better?
01:40:59.998 --> 01:41:02.258
Well, the first thing we have to be
able to do is talk about it, right?
01:41:02.548 --> 01:41:05.398
Because if we can't fess up to
the fact that this is happening
01:41:05.398 --> 01:41:10.978
and we're suffering, then it's a
quick road to the grave, really.
01:41:11.018 --> 01:41:13.518
I mean, it's, it's, it's,
it's that level of crisis.
01:41:13.978 --> 01:41:22.138
I'm welcoming this conversation
because the field that you and I
01:41:22.138 --> 01:41:23.608
are in is largely female driven.
01:41:24.398 --> 01:41:24.478
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:41:25.108 --> 01:41:28.398
Rupert Isaacson: Most of those women
now are coming of age to this sort
01:41:28.398 --> 01:41:33.188
of c- they're sort of, they're coming
to their queen time of the life,
01:41:33.678 --> 01:41:38.438
which coincides with this massive
physical and hormonal challenge.
01:41:38.728 --> 01:41:43.448
I, I, I so agree with you that
the stigma around HRT I don't
01:41:43.448 --> 01:41:44.718
think is to anybody's benefit.
01:41:44.728 --> 01:41:44.748
No.
01:41:45.488 --> 01:41:48.078
And I, I don't really see what-
01:41:51.174 --> 01:42:00.424
benefit there is to allowing 50%
of the workforce and the managerial
01:42:00.424 --> 01:42:08.104
force and the entrepreneurial force
to be sort of slain by a dragon th-
01:42:08.194 --> 01:42:11.684
without … No, you give them a sword
and a shield, but it's, it's all right
01:42:11.684 --> 01:42:13.074
to admit that the dragon is there.
01:42:13.794 --> 01:42:17.934
Have you got plans to actually implement
this in your, in, in your practice?
01:42:17.934 --> 01:42:20.194
And if so, like, what are
the little pilot projects?
01:42:20.194 --> 01:42:22.514
What are the toes in the
water that you might be doing
01:42:22.514 --> 01:42:23.504
in the next couple of years?
01:42:24.044 --> 01:42:26.684
Nicola Hepburn: I'm looking at
initially looking at some retreats.
01:42:26.744 --> 01:42:29.444
We've been looking at, you know,
running some retreats 'cause we've
01:42:29.444 --> 01:42:32.584
got an ideal setting for it with the
horses, like you say, with the lakes.
01:42:32.584 --> 01:42:33.214
We've got sauna.
01:42:33.354 --> 01:42:34.684
We've got the woodland.
01:42:34.704 --> 01:42:38.464
We've, you know … So it's just
such a, a beautiful site and, you
01:42:38.464 --> 01:42:40.434
know, I've got friends who do yoga.
01:42:40.994 --> 01:42:44.084
And I, you know, I know that you're
running retreats as well, so I'm talking
01:42:44.084 --> 01:42:45.274
to people about running retreats.
01:42:45.594 --> 01:42:46.034
Mm-hmm.
01:42:46.034 --> 01:42:48.804
And we're thinking maybe a little pilot
retreat for a few days this summer.
01:42:49.274 --> 01:42:51.264
But I'm also interested in
running some support groups.
01:42:51.264 --> 01:42:53.024
It's all very in its inception
at the moment, you know.
01:42:53.024 --> 01:42:54.054
Mm-hmm.
01:42:54.944 --> 01:42:57.334
You know, haven't really got much
further than that at the moment.
01:42:57.404 --> 01:43:00.174
That's, you know, where I am, but we
are looking at organizing, like, a small
01:43:00.174 --> 01:43:04.174
retreat at some point this summer for
just a few days as, like, a, a test
01:43:04.174 --> 01:43:09.924
run to see what works and what, you
know, what people want really, Mm-hmm
01:43:09.924 --> 01:43:09.964
comes to this.
01:43:09.964 --> 01:43:13.564
But it's a very different approach for
me really, a different demographic.
01:43:13.564 --> 01:43:14.414
So it's gonna take a bit-
01:43:14.474 --> 01:43:15.004
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
01:43:15.664 --> 01:43:16.114
… Nicola Hepburn: work it out.
01:43:16.134 --> 01:43:21.304
And you know, again, do the right
research so that we're really providing
01:43:21.484 --> 01:43:25.234
what people, what's gonna be of
use to people and help people, so.
01:43:26.004 --> 01:43:27.344
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
spoiler alert listeners.
01:43:27.344 --> 01:43:31.234
We will, Nikki and I are gonna
do something next summer.
01:43:31.714 --> 01:43:36.424
And I think what would be really good with
that is we, I think we need to reach out
01:43:36.444 --> 01:43:42.204
to men as well who are going through that
… Do we call it a midlife crisis anymore?
01:43:42.204 --> 01:43:45.044
Do we call it a two-thirds of
the way th- through life crisis?
01:43:45.054 --> 01:43:45.964
Do we call it male menopause?
01:43:45.964 --> 01:43:50.174
I don't know what we call it, but
we know that there's suffering,
01:43:50.224 --> 01:43:50.934
and we know that there's-
01:43:55.248 --> 01:44:00.468
D- disassociation from each other that
this is where often relationships break
01:44:00.468 --> 01:44:06.968
down right when people have built,
spent decades building stuff together.
01:44:07.468 --> 01:44:13.478
And the sudden breakdowns in communication
and understanding, do they need to happen?
01:44:13.968 --> 01:44:16.488
I mean, everybody needs to
feel seen and heard, right?
01:44:16.498 --> 01:44:18.478
You know, men do, women do.
01:44:19.188 --> 01:44:23.188
Are there ways that we can draw upon
what we've been doing with special
01:44:23.188 --> 01:44:29.628
needs and neurodiverse all these years
to help ourselves and those like us to
01:44:30.138 --> 01:44:34.958
effectively keep putting one foot in
front of the other when the rules change?
01:44:35.688 --> 01:44:40.738
Because yeah, it's, it's
change is distressing.
01:44:42.018 --> 01:44:43.608
Nicola Hepburn: And we're- Yeah.
01:44:43.608 --> 01:44:45.778
I, I heard something that I thought
was really interesting that said
01:44:45.798 --> 01:44:48.078
that, you know, the people who stay
with you through your life are the
01:44:48.078 --> 01:44:49.578
people who can change with you- Mm-hmm
01:44:50.868 --> 01:44:51.398
who are going to accept when you change.
01:44:51.398 --> 01:44:54.688
And I think the problem- Mm … a lot of
the time when people expect other people
01:44:54.688 --> 01:45:00.768
to stay the same, so- Mm … you know,
maybe it's learning to accept people,
01:45:00.768 --> 01:45:05.188
people's changes and grow with them, you
know, that's a huge, a huge thing to-
01:45:05.208 --> 01:45:05.628
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
01:45:05.638 --> 01:45:08.458
Right … which, I, I think it goes,
it goes beyond acceptance, doesn't it?
01:45:08.458 --> 01:45:10.848
I think it has to go to
like more like to curiosity.
01:45:10.848 --> 01:45:14.998
It's like, "Oh, Nikki, you know,
I've known you all this time, and
01:45:14.998 --> 01:45:18.898
now you're this sort of new Nikki.
01:45:19.458 --> 01:45:23.018
Help me to explore and appreciate
those com- complexities.
01:45:23.018 --> 01:45:24.738
Like, how can you…
01:45:24.768 --> 01:45:25.038
How…
01:45:25.338 --> 01:45:27.988
Rather than saying, "Well, no,
I want you to be the old Nikki."
01:45:28.438 --> 01:45:28.508
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:45:28.838 --> 01:45:30.718
Rupert Isaacson: You say, "Well,
Rupert, you know, sorry, but with
01:45:30.718 --> 01:45:31.888
the best will in the world, I'm not.
01:45:32.118 --> 01:45:37.718
You know, I'm still here if you
wanna come along for the ride,
01:45:37.728 --> 01:45:39.008
but I myself don't perhaps know."
01:45:39.538 --> 01:45:39.918
You know?
01:45:40.088 --> 01:45:43.498
But I do think, yeah, it's, it's w-
it's almost like we're, we're not
01:45:43.498 --> 01:45:46.688
encouraged to be curious perhaps
'cause we're afraid, perhaps because
01:45:46.698 --> 01:45:49.928
we're encouraged to be afraid, perhaps
because we're told we'll be punished,
01:45:49.928 --> 01:45:52.458
again, if we ask the wrong question
or make the wrong assumption or…
01:45:52.928 --> 01:45:57.678
But maybe we need to make those
wrong assumptions and ask those wrong
01:45:57.678 --> 01:46:00.888
questions in order to get on the other
side of them to ask the right ones.
01:46:01.238 --> 01:46:05.168
But is there a safe space where we
can do that without getting vilified?
01:46:05.768 --> 01:46:08.798
You know, or if, if we're so afraid
of being vilified, will we just
01:46:08.798 --> 01:46:11.718
be paralyzed and drift apart?
01:46:12.208 --> 01:46:13.728
And I do think that happens to people.
01:46:14.318 --> 01:46:14.618
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:46:14.728 --> 01:46:16.168
Rupert Isaacson: Because, you
know, I think this is something
01:46:16.168 --> 01:46:17.138
that, that needs to be addressed.
01:46:17.148 --> 01:46:22.788
Anger is always a big
part of the work we do.
01:46:23.108 --> 01:46:27.068
So, you know, when you're dealing
with a, a small person who's having
01:46:27.068 --> 01:46:30.958
a lot of trouble, neurodiverse,
going through transitions, you
01:46:30.958 --> 01:46:32.328
deal with distress and anger.
01:46:32.838 --> 01:46:38.888
You know, when you're, when you're a young
adult and your amygdala is in advance
01:46:38.888 --> 01:46:44.548
of your prefrontal cortex at 17, 18, 13,
whatever, you deal with a lot of anger.
01:46:45.348 --> 01:46:48.058
Menopause, a lot of anger comes through.
01:46:48.818 --> 01:46:51.428
Now, is that a creative force?
01:46:52.168 --> 01:46:55.028
Can that be explored as a creative force?
01:46:55.698 --> 01:46:58.018
But it's also painful to
deal with, difficult to deal
01:46:58.038 --> 01:46:59.338
with, dangerous to deal with.
01:47:00.168 --> 01:47:01.308
The fear is real.
01:47:02.848 --> 01:47:06.638
If, if you're a man who says the
wrong thing, the fear is real.
01:47:07.468 --> 01:47:09.878
The lashing out is very real.
01:47:10.038 --> 01:47:13.888
Similarly, if you're a woman and
you say the wrong thing to a man,
01:47:13.898 --> 01:47:15.958
the, the lashing out is very real.
01:47:17.848 --> 01:47:22.988
This human anger thing,
male or female, how do we…
01:47:23.728 --> 01:47:26.218
I, I think that that is
what keep, keeps people
01:47:28.238 --> 01:47:29.358
too afraid to engage.
01:47:29.378 --> 01:47:30.058
Do you know what I mean?
01:47:30.058 --> 01:47:33.198
Like h- what, what, what do we deal,
how, h- how do, how do we bridge that?
01:47:34.168 --> 01:47:36.868
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I think, I think
people need, you know, it's hard sometimes
01:47:36.868 --> 01:47:41.088
to recognize a feeling or recognize
why you're feeling a feeling, you know?
01:47:41.098 --> 01:47:44.098
And I think i- or understanding
why you feel angry, you know?
01:47:44.098 --> 01:47:47.088
And I think, I think this, this
time of life is, there's lots of
01:47:47.088 --> 01:47:50.048
other things going on, you know, as
well with people's parents getting
01:47:50.048 --> 01:47:52.568
sick or children leaving home or-
01:47:52.638 --> 01:47:53.178
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
01:47:54.018 --> 01:47:54.848
Nicola Hepburn: doing exams
or going to university.
01:47:54.848 --> 01:47:54.988
I think it's, it's a time of a
lot of pressures, you know- Mm
01:47:58.948 --> 01:48:00.848
and a lot of different things going on.
01:48:00.848 --> 01:48:04.238
And so it's, you know, do people
always necessarily have the time to
01:48:04.248 --> 01:48:07.948
think about themselves and the root
of their feelings or the root of their
01:48:07.948 --> 01:48:09.008
anger and where it's coming from?
01:48:09.288 --> 01:48:11.718
Do they have to- Mm … think about
that 'cause they're so absorbed with
01:48:11.718 --> 01:48:12.898
everything else that's going on?
01:48:12.898 --> 01:48:14.484
It's, I don't know.
01:48:14.484 --> 01:48:16.738
I don't have the answers, but-
Yeah … I think it's a, it's
01:48:16.738 --> 01:48:18.048
a very interesting question.
01:48:19.018 --> 01:48:21.188
Rupert Isaacson: I suspect that
nature's always gonna be the answer.
01:48:21.318 --> 01:48:24.208
I suspect that the return
of the nervous system-
01:48:24.628 --> 01:48:24.768
Nicola Hepburn: Mm-hmm
01:48:24.838 --> 01:48:28.768
… Rupert Isaacson: to a sort of reset
which only nature can provide, right?
01:48:29.218 --> 01:48:33.428
But I suspect one probably will need
to do that more often than less often,
01:48:34.288 --> 01:48:39.388
that we, we put so much attention on
to helping of young people because they
01:48:39.388 --> 01:48:43.778
got their lives ahead of them, and we
want, you know, to s- set them sail on
01:48:43.778 --> 01:48:45.368
the ocean in the best ship that we can.
01:48:46.018 --> 01:48:46.378
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:48:46.638 --> 01:48:50.028
Rupert Isaacson: But once they're
out there, you know, Mid-Atlantic,
01:48:50.058 --> 01:48:53.518
there's, you know, some waves and
some storms, and by the time they get
01:48:53.518 --> 01:48:54.708
to the Mid-Atlantic, they're older.
01:48:55.408 --> 01:48:58.348
By the time they land on the
foreign shore, they're older still.
01:48:59.238 --> 01:49:02.698
By the time they're setting up
camp there, perhaps a, you know,
01:49:02.728 --> 01:49:04.178
they're a decade or two in.
01:49:04.998 --> 01:49:07.308
And as you say, the pressures get greater.
01:49:07.868 --> 01:49:14.058
You happen to have, I think, that place
despite it being in a very, you know,
01:49:14.058 --> 01:49:17.178
well-populated part of the British Isles.
01:49:17.428 --> 01:49:20.438
It's not far from Birmingham,
you know, not far from London.
01:49:20.538 --> 01:49:21.958
But yeah, it's very rural where you are.
01:49:21.958 --> 01:49:22.648
It's deeply rural.
01:49:22.648 --> 01:49:25.078
You hear the owls at night, see the stars.
01:49:27.116 --> 01:49:32.966
I suspect you'll be able to give people
access to what they need, and I, I'm
01:49:32.976 --> 01:49:36.676
excited to see how you offer that
01:49:38.626 --> 01:49:38.806
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:49:38.806 --> 01:49:41.726
It's gonna be, it's gonna be an
exciting new adventure, I think.
01:49:41.726 --> 01:49:45.696
Something yeah, that's … I
think it's got a lot of potential.
01:49:45.696 --> 01:49:48.396
And I think, you know, like you say,
it's the same thing with the children.
01:49:48.396 --> 01:49:52.646
The environment just lends
itself to the therapeutic.
01:49:52.746 --> 01:49:53.326
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
01:49:53.336 --> 01:49:53.366
'Cause
01:49:54.166 --> 01:49:56.406
Nicola Hepburn: it's, it is j- You
know, before we do anything, we've got
01:49:56.406 --> 01:49:59.696
this beautiful therapeutic environment,
so we're very lucky to have that as
01:49:59.696 --> 01:50:03.036
a starting, a starting point really.
01:50:03.046 --> 01:50:07.126
And you know, the lakes as well, I think,
you know, being near water- Mm … the
01:50:07.126 --> 01:50:10.556
research, you know, this is very similar
to the research around horses, isn't it?
01:50:10.706 --> 01:50:10.776
Yeah.
01:50:10.996 --> 01:50:11.616
You know?
01:50:11.616 --> 01:50:13.546
And it's the same as being
in woodland, isn't it?
01:50:13.546 --> 01:50:15.806
The research of what it
does to you physically-
01:50:16.046 --> 01:50:16.466
Rupert Isaacson: Yes
01:50:16.526 --> 01:50:20.176
… Nicola Hepburn: being in those
environments is, is- Yes … huge impact.
01:50:20.516 --> 01:50:24.596
So I think, yeah, I think the ha- having
a retreat in that environment where you
01:50:24.596 --> 01:50:27.926
understand what's going on, and then you
can take away from that and apply it to
01:50:27.926 --> 01:50:31.756
your life elsewhere, I think that would
be really valuable to a lot of people.
01:50:32.266 --> 01:50:32.746
Rupert Isaacson: It will.
01:50:32.816 --> 01:50:33.866
Well, I can't wait to do it with you.
01:50:34.336 --> 01:50:38.176
And for those, those people who are
listening and watching, send us an email.
01:50:38.356 --> 01:50:41.656
You know where to reach us, and we'll
… If you wanna come on one of these early
01:50:41.656 --> 01:50:45.156
retreats then you can also go up to
Stratford-on-Avon up the road afterwards
01:50:45.386 --> 01:50:50.056
or before and have a little chat with
Shakespeare and An- Anne Hathaway.
01:50:50.756 --> 01:50:51.166
Okay.
01:50:51.276 --> 01:50:53.786
Well, Nikki, it's been fan- fantastic.
01:50:54.346 --> 01:50:55.846
How do people contact you?
01:50:56.246 --> 01:51:02.886
Give us the plugs, websites, contacts,
offerings, what people can contact you
01:51:02.896 --> 01:51:09.332
for not just the services, but also, you
know- Guidance, tuition, consultation
01:51:10.212 --> 01:51:10.392
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:51:10.452 --> 01:51:13.082
Well, the website is, is
the the best place to go, so
01:51:13.082 --> 01:51:15.352
it's equinelearning.org.uk.
01:51:16.212 --> 01:51:20.252
And there's a contact us page on
the website that you can, you can
01:51:20.262 --> 01:51:22.842
send a … You know, if you have
a query, you can send it to there.
01:51:23.192 --> 01:51:28.152
Or there's an email address, which
is hello@equinelearning.org.uk.
01:51:28.442 --> 01:51:30.912
But all our contact details
are, are on the website.
01:51:30.912 --> 01:51:33.592
If you Google Equine Learning,
it, you know, it should come up.
01:51:34.142 --> 01:51:38.432
And yeah, I mean, people can get in
touch with me about our therapeutic
01:51:38.432 --> 01:51:41.202
services, about our camps, about retreats.
01:51:41.202 --> 01:51:42.422
We are looking at running some.
01:51:42.422 --> 01:51:46.252
We do private stays for families at the
moment, if they want to come and stay and
01:51:46.252 --> 01:51:49.902
bring a child and stay on site and do some
work with the horses and use the lakes and
01:51:49.902 --> 01:51:51.792
the other facilities here, we can do that.
01:51:52.212 --> 01:51:54.412
We are looking at running
some camps again next summer.
01:51:54.852 --> 01:51:59.522
And then obviously for therapeutic
work and education we, we can also do
01:51:59.542 --> 01:52:03.152
education on a more remote basis for
people who may not be in the local
01:52:03.152 --> 01:52:07.822
area who might be interested in doing
a qualification with our organization.
01:52:07.832 --> 01:52:10.652
So, yeah, those are all the
things that we can, we can offer.
01:52:10.832 --> 01:52:11.232
And,
01:52:11.312 --> 01:52:12.682
Rupert Isaacson: And, and
once again, the website?
01:52:13.342 --> 01:52:16.142
Nicola Hepburn: It's
equinelearning.org.uk.
01:52:16.572 --> 01:52:20.142
Rupert Isaacson: Equinelearning.org.uk.
01:52:20.422 --> 01:52:23.592
And I'm sure that there's a, an email
link on there that they can reach you at.
01:52:23.682 --> 01:52:23.932
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
01:52:23.992 --> 01:52:25.032
There's a contact us page.
01:52:25.032 --> 01:52:26.942
It's got all our contact details on there.
01:52:27.322 --> 01:52:27.762
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
01:52:28.402 --> 01:52:28.752
All right.
01:52:28.752 --> 01:52:31.672
Well, I think we should probably come
on and have this conversation again
01:52:31.722 --> 01:52:36.912
after we've done the first retreat next
year, so I guess we say to be continued.
01:52:37.342 --> 01:52:37.752
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
01:52:37.772 --> 01:52:40.492
Well, thank you very much for, for
inviting me along today, Rupert.
01:52:41.082 --> 01:52:42.552
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's
been my great pleasure
01:52:42.651 --> 01:52:45.771
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01:52:46.311 --> 01:52:51.211
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