Bridging Sectors for Sustainable Solutions, ft. Anne Middleton, WILDCOAST

WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Environmental Leadership Chronicles, a podcast brought to you
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by the California Association of Environmental Professionals.
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In this episode, we feature Anne Middleton, a conservation professional whose
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career has taken her from Montana to Cameroon and now to California,
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bridging the nonprofit public and private sectors.
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From investigating international wildlife crime with the Environmental Investigation
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Agency to procuring sustainable ebony wood in Cameroon for Taylor Guitars,
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Anne's journey reflects her commitment to collaborative environmental solutions.
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In the fall of 2025, Anne was invited to present at TEDx. Check out her talk
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on wildfire prevention, which is linked in our show notes.
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Currently with Wild Coast, Anne previously served as Executive Director at EcoLife
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Conservation and held positions with the San Diego County Water Authority and
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Sustainability matters.
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With degrees in biology from Oberlin College and environmental science and management
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from UC Santa Barbara's Bren School, Ann believes that business can be a powerful
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instrument for positive change.
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We explore her perspective on coastal marine conservation, public-private partnerships,
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and what it takes to create a lasting solution to our planet's most pressing
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environmental challenges.
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Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy.
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Hi, I'm Jessa, and today we are joined by Anne Middleton, the Associate Director
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of Wild Coast. Welcome to the podcast, Anne.
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Thanks, Jessa. I'm really excited to be here today. Me too. I already told you
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this like 10 times, but I'm very excited.
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I'm always excited, but I am still excited.
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Yeah, we're going to have a great conversation. Oh, we will.
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So first question, how are you connected to AEP?
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Good question. Actually, I was a member many years ago, So I'm not super up
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to date on what's going on with AEP right now,
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but I know especially right out of grad school, it was something that was critically
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important to me for skill building and networking and just getting a lay of the landscape.
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When I first moved to San Diego, I didn't know what were the important issues,
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who are the important players. So I know it serves a critically important role
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in the landscape of the environmental work that we're doing.
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So glad to be here again. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, AEP does a lot of work with
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universities and students.
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And so glad to hear that you were connected earlier in your career.
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And we'd love to have you back anytime.
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Yeah, maybe it's a good idea. This is the time. Now's the time.
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I love it. So as part of AEP, you know, some of the work we're doing is rolling
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out an elements campaign.
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And part of the goal of this is to ground the work of environmental professionals
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like in its concrete impact.
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And so from the elements of air, earth, water, time, space connection,
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where do you think your work interfaces with the most?
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Well, the obvious answer is water. For those people watching on video,
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I'm surrounded by waves here.
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At Wild Coast, we are a coastal environmental conservation group,
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but I also used to work at the San Diego Water Authority.
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So living here in San Diego, where we are in a desert and hardly get any rain,
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although this week has been an exception,
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I think that water plays a critical role in how we relate to,
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how we manage, how we recreate in all of our wonderful ecosystems here.
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So I'd have to go with water.
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I love it. Yeah. I didn't know you worked at San Diego Water Authority. Interesting. Yeah.
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What a fun place to learn about Southern California water policy.
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Oh, my goodness. I bet. I can only imagine.
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So kind of transitioning from that, like, tell us about we want to learn more about your origins.
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And, you know, I know you've had a very you're very well experienced in environmental work.
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So what parts of your life like spurred your interest? Like,
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when did you first get interested in environmental work?
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And was there any like moments or realization that like stand out to you?
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Oh, yeah, I love this question. So I grew up in Montana, and I'm 43.
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So that was before the internet, right?
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And really, all there was to do for fun was to be outside, whether it was rock
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climbing or mountain biking or skiing or hiking or catching snakes or starting a bug collection.
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And our family vacations were to Yellowstone Park or Glacier National Park or
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hiking in one of the state forests there.
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And of course, as a child, I thought all of this was normal.
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I was like, this is what people do for fun.
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And then when I went to college at Oberlin College in Ohio, which is gray and
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flat, I was like, oh, it's nothing to do here.
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And a lot of my fellow students were from like Manhattan. And I was like,
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I can't imagine what it's like to live in New York City.
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Like, what do you do for fun? And naturally, they answered that back to me like
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well what did you do for so i grew up in a very outdoorsy family and then,
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i i'm assuming we're kind of the same age jessa but like
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do you remember the movie five more days will be the same age uh cool so do
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you remember the movie fern gully yeah so it doesn't necessarily hold up but
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it's still a good movie but it's about these fairies that live in the forest
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and it gets cut down and how they come together to save them.
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And it just terrified me as a child that anyone would want to cut down a rainforest.
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Since a young kid, I always thought, like, I'm going to save the rainforest.
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Like, that's what I'm going to do with my career.
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And for the first 10 years of my career, that's exactly what I did.
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And yeah, so that was the very beginning was growing up outside in Fern Gully.
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That's amazing. It's interesting, those movies that have an impact on you at such a young age.
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Yeah. And I love that you're like, this is what I'm going to,
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this is what I want to do. And you did it. Well, it's funny.
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Now I'm thinking about it. I'm like, free willy. Now I'm saving the whales.
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So it's kind of the same thing. It's like all these, you watch them now and
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they're so sad and dramatic and traumatic. It's just like, wow.
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Mine was the land before time. That was what hit home for me.
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I didn't have a chance to save the dinosaurs. But maybe next time.
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And with your work, I know you have done work internationally.
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And so can you tell us a little bit more about that, like your international
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experience and what, again, spurred your interest in work outside of the United States? Yeah.
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So, you know, on my Save the Rainforest journey in college, I studied biology
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and I was so lucky I got to do a study abroad program in Tanzania, which was awesome.
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I basically spent three months living in a tent in the Serengeti or other national
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parks there studying wildlife.
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And it was my dream come true. Although our academic director at the time was
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very smart, and he was very good about helping us understand what's going on.
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The Western theme of conservation, which is dispossessing indigenous peoples
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of their lands in the name of saving lions, for example, how that impacts real
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people and real communities.
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And we got to do homestays in urban areas, but also I got to do a homestay with
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the Maasai, which was amazing.
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The hardest three days of my life, carrying water and fixing houses made with
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dung and things like that.
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And so after after college, I was kind of like, oh, my gosh,
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the policy side of the conservation work is as important, if not more important
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than the actual science piece. And they have to go together.
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They have to work in conjunction, which is why I went to the Bren School at
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UCSB and got my master's there, mostly focused on environmental policy.
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It was like this whole time I was thinking, I want a job where I can wear my
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hiking boots and be outside and be in forests.
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But that study brought help me understand, you know what, we are still doing these things.
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And growing up in Montana, it was a great example where Glacier National Park
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is adjacent to the Blackfoot Reservation, which is one of the most underserved
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communities in the state.
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And they were dispossessed of their land. And now everyone is thinking,
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you know, okay, that was a mistake, but how do we fix it?
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And we're still doing that in a lot of parts of Africa as well.
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So this is a long-winded answer to say, once I got a taste of what's happening
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around the world, I really was like, oh, man, I...
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I got to figure out a way to get people to pay me to travel and save things.
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And so I was lucky that I did that.
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I landed a job with a nonprofit organization in Washington, D.C.
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Called the Environmental Investigation Agency.
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And we did undercover trade crime investigations on global supply chains of
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environmental products.
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So I was on the forest team there and got to go to Honduras and Brazil and conferences in London.
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And we put together a case against a company that was doing illegal logging
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in national parks in Madagascar, which ended up Gibson Guitars for guitar manufacturing.
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So that's kind of a long winded answer to say. I was like, I'm going to figure
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out how to put all these pieces together.
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And my dad always told me, you will have made it in life if you can find someone
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to pay you for the thing that you're very passionate about.
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So say, thanks, dad. I think I'm doing okay. Say, yeah, you've made it. Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Oh, my gosh. I have so many questions
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about doing that work. Like, did you get into any, like, situations where you felt?
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Okay, well, it's funny because they knew who you are or like.
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Yeah, so I'm a musician in my side hustle.
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So and at the time I was in my early 20s.
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And so I think my boss was keenly aware that she was like, there will be certain
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places that you can get into and certain conversations you can have that other people can't.
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As in, you know, and I feel like this is kind of a disservice to my gender,
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but I would go to flooring trade shows and boat trade shows and music trade shows and
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And just be like, oh, that's cool. What is that made out of?
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And they'd be like, well, it's teak. I'm like, oh, my gosh, where do you get
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that? And they're like, well, if you really want to know the story.
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And it's just like, oh, my gosh, people just tell me stuff.
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And we had sometimes. They underestimated you.
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Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to go back and look that up.
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But it was really fun getting, especially getting to know the music industry,
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because this specific case, which was for the Lacey Act, which bans trade in
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illegal plants and animals in the United States if it's sourced illegally.
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So the country of origin, if people aren't paying taxes or the documents have
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been falsified or communities aren't being paid, et cetera, et cetera.
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So with the music industry, they were like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do?
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You're telling us we have to know every step of
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our supply chain and we were
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like yeah actually because if you don't you're going to go to
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jail and also on the long range end
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of things musical instruments unlike flooring
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for example the physical quality of
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the wood product is what makes it sound the
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way it does so yeah like have you heard of
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a like a Stradivarius violin for example yeah
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yeah so that's it yeah well i
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mean that's okay so they they're very famous they're they were made centuries
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ago but they have a particular quality of sound because because of the wood
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and so the music industry actually does honestly have vested interest in responsible
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forest management so that they continue to make these beautiful sounding instruments in perpetuity.
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So having those kind of conversations with the
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music manufacturers kind of got them to be like okay so you're
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not just like here to kill rock and roll it's like bro
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dude i know i like rock and roll yeah yeah and so you know you mentioned the
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lacy act that is you know the policy to ensure ethical sourcing are there more
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amendments you would like to see to that in the future Sure.
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Ooh, interesting question. Yes. So the amendment that we worked on to help develop
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and prosecute this case was the one that added plant products.
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So I think the Lacey Act, gosh, this is really racking my brain.
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I used to know this stuff.
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I think it passed in the early 1900s as a result of the women's hat fashion
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of having like all these feathers, like feathered hats were really vogue at the time.
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And these bird populations were going extinct. So they passed a law to prevent
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like this massive trade of bird feathers.
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And then in 2008, it was amended to include plant products.
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So that's pulp and paper, wood products, things you can think of in that vein.
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And then on an international scale, we have CITES,
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the Convention on International Trade of endangered species which also
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really impacts the music industry because if
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something is depending on whether it's CITES
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1 type 2 or 3 there are different levels of strictness
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but if something is CITES 1 listed
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such as Brazilian rosewood and this
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is where like elephant ivory is also listed CITES 1 it
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cannot be entered into commerce legally
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anywhere ever so if
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you own an ivory trinket from your
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grandmother for example or a brazilian rosewood
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guitar which my brother had one growing up and they they do
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sound very good like you literally cannot legally sell it anymore which is a
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bummer for the for the industry but not really because we've gotten to the point
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where these species are so depleted if we continue to make things out of them
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like elephants, they're all gonna disappear.
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That was a very long. No, that's really interesting. So what can you do with it?
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Can you like just is it like give it away, donate it?
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Yeah. So like, yeah, that's also a good question. So even if you have like traveling
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orchestras, for example,
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where their instruments might fall under these categories, you can get if you
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can prove that the article that you own is pre-convention, as in the the thing
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in it that is now illegal to trade.
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Was harvested prior to when the laws went into effect. So for each species,
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it's a little bit different.
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Then you can get exemptions to cross borders, like political borders.
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And I think also you can probably sell it. Don't quote me on that.
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But this is like 15 years ago knowledge. But,
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Like, for example, if I have like an ivory trinket from my grandmother,
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like I think, I can't believe I'm saying this on record, but I do have a teapot
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from that silver and it's got an ivory handle that is like an heirloom in my family.
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And I'm like, what am I going to do with this?
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No, I can't legally sell it. You can give it to somebody. Yeah.
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Okay. It's just like priceless.
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Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. It's very neat. A unique heirloom to have.
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And sorry, I'm very curious about all this, but we're just scratching the surface of the hand.
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And so from the Environmental Investigation Agency, is that then when you transitioned
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to Taylor Guitars? Yeah, so that's how I got to know Taylor.
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And when I was at EIA, we were trying to give them a lot of advice on how to
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clarify their supply chains.
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Because there are so many companies out there that just really,
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really want to do the thing and aren't nefarious actors and aren't just looking
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at the bottom line in terms of price.
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Taylor Guitars is absolutely one of those. And so we were having a lot of conversations
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about ebony specifically, which is the dark black wood that goes on like the
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fingerboards of guitars and violins.
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It's very dense. So you can put frets in it.
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You can rub your greasy fingers on it for centuries and it will like hold its
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shape. So it's pretty cool wood.
00:16:52.092 --> 00:16:55.412
Anyway, so they were like, how are we going to get legal ebony now?
00:16:55.592 --> 00:17:00.972
I don't know. And so they bought an ebony factory in Cameroon and just said,
00:17:01.092 --> 00:17:01.952
we're going to do it ourselves.
00:17:03.032 --> 00:17:08.252
So it's pretty cool because I think Taylor was the first and is probably still the only,
00:17:09.132 --> 00:17:14.372
guitar manufacturer that vertically integrated any part of their wood supply
00:17:14.372 --> 00:17:20.432
chain, but specifically a biologically and politically risky part of their supply chain. So,
00:17:21.403 --> 00:17:26.803
They hired me to help get it up and running, which was a fantastic adventure.
00:17:27.363 --> 00:17:32.523
Yeah. Yeah. Tell us more about that. So were you working in Cameroon then?
00:17:33.563 --> 00:17:37.343
So I got to live there for two years. Wow.
00:17:38.003 --> 00:17:43.063
Yeah. It was so fun. And when I first got there, they had just acquired this
00:17:43.063 --> 00:17:48.783
company from a previous owner, and it was poorly run in every way you can imagine.
00:17:48.783 --> 00:17:52.843
They had a rule that no women could work there so obviously that was the first
00:17:52.843 --> 00:18:00.763
thing i changed and they the the the staff weren't being paid a legal wage they didn't have any ppe,
00:18:01.643 --> 00:18:08.343
it it was just a hot mess so i get there and my recommendation to the leadership
00:18:08.343 --> 00:18:12.763
at taylor was i know you hired me to like save the forest and stuff like that
00:18:12.763 --> 00:18:16.383
but you've got some problems we need to address first.
00:18:17.123 --> 00:18:22.423
So one of the first things I did, which I think made a huge difference, is we built,
00:18:23.050 --> 00:18:27.930
We built a little cantina on campus so that people could eat lunch for free
00:18:27.930 --> 00:18:31.930
because I was noticing after lunch or like during lunchtime,
00:18:32.070 --> 00:18:33.590
people were just sitting around not doing anything.
00:18:33.710 --> 00:18:36.550
I was like, why are you not eating lunch? And they said, well, we can't afford it.
00:18:36.970 --> 00:18:42.050
It's like, OK, A, we need to pay you more and B, we can't have you operating
00:18:42.050 --> 00:18:46.470
heavy machinery when you haven't eaten for six hours. Like that's a safety hazard.
00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:51.930
And so, yeah, while I thought I was going to be down there tagging trees and
00:18:51.930 --> 00:18:55.430
developing sustainable management plans for these exotic species,
00:18:55.570 --> 00:19:01.530
which I did end up doing later, the first thing I did was help them build a lunch cafeteria.
00:19:01.530 --> 00:19:04.590
You so that's really amazing and i yeah
00:19:04.590 --> 00:19:07.390
like i mean there's a human aspect of it right
00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:10.350
or it's like there's so many excuse me
00:19:10.350 --> 00:19:12.970
so many layers of that where it's like okay we need to
00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:16.130
get you food like for survival we need
00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:19.130
to pay you more so this isn't become like an ongoing problem
00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:22.290
and like let's just get that fixed immediately and
00:19:22.290 --> 00:19:25.030
solve that problem by providing lunches for
00:19:25.030 --> 00:19:28.530
you and then obviously the business side is like the risk and like the safety
00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:32.830
side too it's like the work they're doing it's like you you need fuel for like
00:19:32.830 --> 00:19:37.990
you know the human like side of that yeah well totally and and and what i think
00:19:37.990 --> 00:19:42.070
taylor maybe didn't know that they were hiring me which i've i've carried out
00:19:42.070 --> 00:19:43.150
through the rest of my career is.
00:19:44.404 --> 00:19:48.584
For me, it was critically important to get all of the staff on board,
00:19:48.584 --> 00:19:53.204
to understand why we were there and what we were doing, which was very difficult
00:19:53.204 --> 00:19:57.844
in a corrupt, colonized African country, right?
00:19:57.964 --> 00:20:00.624
So I come in as this white girl and I'm like, hey, guess what?
00:20:00.624 --> 00:20:04.524
We're going to make your lives better and everything's going to be great.
00:20:04.524 --> 00:20:07.004
And they were like, let's get our core values.
00:20:07.304 --> 00:20:09.104
Cool. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:09.584 --> 00:20:13.804
And also at the time, my French was terrible. So, like, there were times when
00:20:13.804 --> 00:20:16.484
I would have these all-staff meetings and I would come up with this,
00:20:16.504 --> 00:20:19.124
like, great speech that I thought was so inspirational.
00:20:19.184 --> 00:20:22.664
And all I got back was, like, grunts and stares. And I was like,
00:20:22.764 --> 00:20:24.844
oh, they must just not understand my French.
00:20:25.544 --> 00:20:28.464
But obviously, no. It's because why would they trust me?
00:20:28.624 --> 00:20:33.564
Like, I'm this new person in a new space who doesn't really speak their language. And so—,
00:20:34.150 --> 00:20:38.810
A couple other things we did or I did that I think really helped get the company
00:20:38.810 --> 00:20:43.150
to where it is today is I would just randomly bring in donuts and be like,
00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:46.090
hey, guys, turn off your saws. Let's just like take a break and chill.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:51.370
We also got them soccer uniforms and sponsored their local soccer team.
00:20:51.530 --> 00:20:53.250
And I would go to see them play on the weekends.
00:20:54.370 --> 00:20:57.510
And I invited the the leadership
00:20:57.510 --> 00:21:00.430
staff of the company over to the to
00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:03.390
the Taylor company house for lunch a couple
00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:07.550
times a quarter and they'd never been to that part of town which I also didn't
00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:12.170
realize at the time and I remember asking them like sitting around saying okay
00:21:12.170 --> 00:21:15.490
here here's what we're trying to do here guys and yeah like we want to make
00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:19.590
sure we're doing everything above board and legally because it's required by
00:21:19.590 --> 00:21:22.190
law but also it's part of our core values at Taylor.
00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:26.070
But how can we make this more efficient what are the problems that
00:21:26.070 --> 00:21:29.970
you see you are the ones on the floor you're the ones cutting the wood and
00:21:29.970 --> 00:21:32.950
again I thought this is like I was like cool I'm really nailing this management
00:21:32.950 --> 00:21:36.270
thing and I just got like I just got like blank stares
00:21:36.270 --> 00:21:38.950
again and again I was like shit man I
00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:41.910
thought my French was getting better like did you guys understand what
00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:45.030
they said and the foreman like kind
00:21:45.030 --> 00:21:48.310
of raised his hand and he was like he's like I'm sorry ma'am
00:21:48.310 --> 00:21:51.530
like no one's ever asked us what we think before and I
00:21:51.530 --> 00:21:54.650
was like wow oh I know
00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.630
I know it still makes me like so I just
00:21:57.630 --> 00:22:00.910
said well that's gonna change and I want to know what you think because you're
00:22:00.910 --> 00:22:06.810
the ones who know this stuff like how can we together better manage this company
00:22:06.810 --> 00:22:12.710
and so that by the time Bob Taylor and the leadership from San Diego came and
00:22:12.710 --> 00:22:15.030
started having these conversations with people They were like,
00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:19.590
I have this idea and this idea and this. And I was like, yes, yes, yes.
00:22:19.750 --> 00:22:22.530
Like this is what we need to make the
00:22:22.530 --> 00:22:28.190
company efficient, which leads into sustainability and get their business.
00:22:28.686 --> 00:22:35.866
Honest buy-in to why we had to do all this extra work for sustainability and traceability.
00:22:36.186 --> 00:22:41.166
What an impact that probably had on that community. That's, I hope so.
00:22:41.266 --> 00:22:44.126
I think so. It was very hard to leave. Yeah.
00:22:45.046 --> 00:22:51.126
So like what responsibilities do environmental professionals have when they
00:22:51.126 --> 00:22:53.446
step into communities that aren't their own?
00:22:53.626 --> 00:22:57.506
So like you said, you're coming in as So white woman, like non-native speaker,
00:22:58.406 --> 00:23:00.146
totally different background.
00:23:00.526 --> 00:23:04.486
Like, so what do you, I mean, this is your, I mean, this sounds like too beyond
00:23:04.486 --> 00:23:07.846
like environmental professional, just as like a professional.
00:23:08.066 --> 00:23:10.586
Like, so how do you navigate that?
00:23:11.066 --> 00:23:15.926
Oh, also such a good question because it ties in really well to the work we do at Wild Coast now.
00:23:16.406 --> 00:23:21.766
I would, my personal recommendation now, having done all of that is...
00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:25.699
You've got to work with people who live there. You've got to work with community members.
00:23:26.959 --> 00:23:31.559
The white savior thing was something that environmentists maybe thought worked
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.859
like 10, 20, 30 years ago.
00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:37.399
But that's the absolute wrong way to do any project anywhere, right?
00:23:37.499 --> 00:23:42.839
To have someone who's purportedly an expert come into an environment where they
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.999
don't know the people or don't know the culture and say, here's how we're going to do things.
00:23:47.159 --> 00:23:49.199
Like, does that ever work anywhere?
00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:53.999
Yeah. And so one of the really effective and cool things that we do at Wild
00:23:53.999 --> 00:24:01.359
Coast is we're helping establish and manage sea turtle nesting beaches,
00:24:01.579 --> 00:24:03.179
like protected areas for sea turtles.
00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:09.239
And our two employees who are running that project live and grew up in and work
00:24:09.239 --> 00:24:13.479
in that community. So they literally and figuratively speak the language.
00:24:13.639 --> 00:24:16.239
They know how fast to push things.
00:24:16.479 --> 00:24:20.819
They know who the leaders are within the community. They know what times of
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:23.599
day people want to work, what kind of foods to bring,
00:24:23.919 --> 00:24:32.139
what kind of questions to ask to make sure that it truly is community driven project.
00:24:32.779 --> 00:24:39.099
Because I think we all have examples, or at least if you've done any conservation
00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:43.479
work, have examples of going in with this great plan and all these engineers
00:24:43.479 --> 00:24:44.819
and thinking you're going to fix things.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.579
And then as soon as you leave, it falls apart. yeah
00:24:48.579 --> 00:24:51.419
and like to have true and
00:24:51.419 --> 00:24:54.359
lasting sustainability in all senses of the term
00:24:54.359 --> 00:25:01.579
it like it's required to have community buy-in from the beginning i think yeah
00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:05.359
it's like that collaboration stakeholder engagement yeah which like you said
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:10.779
i think too is like that's i think the norm today or should be and i think most
00:25:10.779 --> 00:25:13.659
people realize that but it has i think it's Knowledge.
00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:15.839
Yeah. It hasn't always been like that. Yeah.
00:25:16.179 --> 00:25:22.279
Yeah. And it is evident, too. When you travel to some of these into remote places
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:23.879
in other countries, it's like, wow.
00:25:24.897 --> 00:25:29.157
We, white conservationists, like really screwed up. We screwed up in a lot of
00:25:29.157 --> 00:25:32.457
places. We're screwing up here still in the United States.
00:25:33.597 --> 00:25:38.317
Yeah well speaking of so you lived there for a few years moved back to san diego,
00:25:38.917 --> 00:25:44.017
and then have transitioned into non-profit leadership so you worked at eco life
00:25:44.017 --> 00:25:48.937
and now you're at wild coast so can you tell us more about that transition like
00:25:48.937 --> 00:25:54.517
coming back what that was like and how that like fit into your career path of
00:25:54.517 --> 00:25:58.417
you know getting paid to do what you love yeah Well,
00:25:58.517 --> 00:26:04.697
I think any adult will probably agree with when you say like your life paths
00:26:04.697 --> 00:26:08.517
and career path specifically is never quite what you thought it was going to
00:26:08.517 --> 00:26:10.257
be. It's never really linear.
00:26:10.777 --> 00:26:13.877
It was after this experience in Cameroon. I was like, oh, man,
00:26:13.977 --> 00:26:16.597
I'm going to work in tropical forestry. That's my life.
00:26:16.697 --> 00:26:19.457
This is so cool. I had a lot of great connections.
00:26:19.997 --> 00:26:25.357
And then back in San Diego, I was like, oh, there are no tropical forests here.
00:26:25.357 --> 00:26:28.697
And I speak French, not Spanish. So...
00:26:29.776 --> 00:26:32.576
I'm going to have to get some new skills. Yeah. And actually,
00:26:32.696 --> 00:26:36.596
that was about the time when I started engaging with AEP and meeting people
00:26:36.596 --> 00:26:38.196
and like, OK, I need to know this.
00:26:38.316 --> 00:26:42.556
And Sequinepa, get brushed up on those things. You might need that for a job interview.
00:26:43.296 --> 00:26:52.176
And so I think that nonprofit work, though, has kind of always been where my heart and passion is.
00:26:52.296 --> 00:26:58.336
I think you find a lot of very passionate subject matter experts.
00:26:58.336 --> 00:27:00.956
I mean, not that they're not in the private and public sectors,
00:27:00.956 --> 00:27:09.656
too, but I love the flexibility and aggression with which we can attack problems here.
00:27:10.076 --> 00:27:13.836
So, yeah, I've been at Wild Coast a little over two years now,
00:27:13.936 --> 00:27:21.696
and I'm just surrounded by amazingly brilliant, nimble problem solvers, and I just love it.
00:27:22.676 --> 00:27:27.336
Yeah. Yeah, I could see that in the nonprofit sector. It's like you you put
00:27:27.336 --> 00:27:31.216
out this purpose and what you're going to do and why you're doing it.
00:27:31.436 --> 00:27:36.256
And I would assume you like people are attracted to you because of that.
00:27:36.536 --> 00:27:43.356
Like, you know, whether through grant work or donors and it's not like you get
00:27:43.356 --> 00:27:48.196
to pick the projects you work on more so rather than like client driven more
00:27:48.196 --> 00:27:49.956
in the private sector. Mm hmm.
00:27:51.471 --> 00:27:58.391
So you're in a leadership position, as we discussed, and it sounds like you
00:27:58.391 --> 00:28:02.551
have your natural leader, too, and these other roles, like you've just,
00:28:02.771 --> 00:28:05.911
you've taken this on beyond the environmental work.
00:28:06.051 --> 00:28:13.211
So has your work become less hands-on as you've escalated and risen up to these leadership positions?
00:28:13.231 --> 00:28:17.151
And, like, how do you stay connected to the environmental work,
00:28:17.271 --> 00:28:19.871
like the biology and the ecology work? Yeah.
00:28:21.051 --> 00:28:25.891
I don't know if it's a necessary evil, for lack of a better term,
00:28:25.971 --> 00:28:30.611
but yeah, the higher you get up in an organization, the less fieldwork you do
00:28:30.611 --> 00:28:33.511
and the less connected you are to the actual projects you're doing.
00:28:33.511 --> 00:28:38.291
And I kind of describe my role at Wild Coast as like COO now.
00:28:38.471 --> 00:28:43.491
And I do a lot of HR and finance and capacity building.
00:28:43.731 --> 00:28:48.771
And I don't get to be outside a lot.
00:28:48.951 --> 00:28:55.871
But I'm so lucky that our executive director, Serge Dadina, his solution to
00:28:55.871 --> 00:28:58.971
solving internal problems is go in the field.
00:28:59.131 --> 00:29:02.091
Just go in the field. go on a trip with with
00:29:02.091 --> 00:29:05.171
other people because when we're in the field we encounter
00:29:05.171 --> 00:29:08.791
every single problem you could have as a human whether it's getting the car
00:29:08.791 --> 00:29:15.171
stuck or getting stung by a scorpion or worrying about drowning or setting your
00:29:15.171 --> 00:29:20.371
tent up when it's windy like these are skill building team building problems
00:29:20.371 --> 00:29:22.451
that you come back like okay cool.
00:29:23.205 --> 00:29:27.925
I have some clarity now. So I have that option and I do get to hang out with
00:29:27.925 --> 00:29:30.705
our field staff really whenever I want to, which is.
00:29:31.005 --> 00:29:33.625
Oh, man, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm very great.
00:29:33.985 --> 00:29:38.085
Yeah, that's great. Great flexibility, like you said, to have like the executive
00:29:38.085 --> 00:29:43.605
director be like promoting that and supportive of that and you want to do it.
00:29:43.605 --> 00:29:48.725
And so when you like you still get to fulfill that side of the passion and like
00:29:48.725 --> 00:29:52.525
while also like focusing on like the high level, like strategic,
00:29:52.545 --> 00:29:54.685
you know, growth of the organization.
00:29:55.065 --> 00:30:01.485
Yeah. Well, and ironically and sadly, like that's also how can I develop systems
00:30:01.485 --> 00:30:04.885
for people doing the work if I don't know what the problems are?
00:30:05.085 --> 00:30:09.145
And it's one thing to ask and say, hey, where are your bottlenecks?
00:30:09.225 --> 00:30:11.625
Where are your inefficiencies? But unless you know.
00:30:12.015 --> 00:30:16.235
At Taylor, we used to call it walk the floor. Unless you go into the back and
00:30:16.235 --> 00:30:19.855
look at the saws and see what's broken and what needs to be calibrated and talk
00:30:19.855 --> 00:30:23.215
to people, you can't manage that stuff from behind a desk.
00:30:23.535 --> 00:30:30.175
And it's the exact same at Wild Coast. I can put things in place that I think
00:30:30.175 --> 00:30:33.095
are valuable, that I think are helping, when I find out later,
00:30:33.355 --> 00:30:35.515
no, it's actually a total waste of time.
00:30:35.735 --> 00:30:39.235
Or, you know, no, we actually need this other thing here.
00:30:39.235 --> 00:30:46.635
So it's critically important for my job in leadership to spend time with the
00:30:46.635 --> 00:30:51.175
staff that aren't at the C-suite so that I better understand how to do my job.
00:30:51.875 --> 00:30:56.055
It's interesting. That's like kind of a microcosm of the challenges of going into a new community.
00:30:56.295 --> 00:30:59.615
Like we were talking about earlier, not knowing the culture and,
00:30:59.675 --> 00:31:02.575
you know, there's like subcultures within organizations.
00:31:02.695 --> 00:31:06.315
And so it's kind of the same thing instead of like, I'm going to tell you how
00:31:06.315 --> 00:31:10.095
to do your job, even though I don't know all about it.
00:31:10.355 --> 00:31:14.875
It's like going in, working with the people who are actually doing the work and learning from them.
00:31:14.875 --> 00:31:20.095
Like, OK, like this is how we're going to to create solutions for you guys.
00:31:20.095 --> 00:31:25.355
And I, you know, I think people don't leave jobs, they leave managers.
00:31:25.955 --> 00:31:31.815
And I think the quickest way to lose respect for managers or,
00:31:32.135 --> 00:31:37.615
you know, in order for people to respect me, I need them to really fully believe that I'm listening.
00:31:37.615 --> 00:31:45.155
Yeah yeah and my favorite one of my favorite phrases as a manager is I don't
00:31:45.155 --> 00:31:48.875
know and I think it's okay to say that or I don't know I'll get back to you
00:31:48.875 --> 00:31:53.095
or I don't know actually or I don't understand that can you tell me more about
00:31:53.095 --> 00:31:56.495
that so that I understand it and it's something that.
00:31:57.378 --> 00:32:00.798
Maybe I think old school leadership, you're taught not to do like always,
00:32:00.958 --> 00:32:03.218
always stand tall. Don't let them see you crack.
00:32:03.498 --> 00:32:08.098
You always know the answers. And it's, it's impossible to know all of the answers.
00:32:08.338 --> 00:32:14.698
And, and I have a very, I've always had like a very inclusive management style,
00:32:14.718 --> 00:32:17.818
like even going back to that kitchen table conversation in Cameroon.
00:32:17.998 --> 00:32:19.818
It's like, I have no idea.
00:32:20.058 --> 00:32:23.678
I mean, maybe I wouldn't say that dramatically, but I don't know what to do here.
00:32:23.678 --> 00:32:27.238
What are some other people's ideas and I
00:32:27.238 --> 00:32:30.518
feel like that's always helped me do my
00:32:30.518 --> 00:32:34.338
job better and my job ultimately is to
00:32:34.338 --> 00:32:39.878
serve the people who work for me right and to remove barriers to entry to create
00:32:39.878 --> 00:32:45.418
efficiencies and especially in the environmental space make sure people are
00:32:45.418 --> 00:32:48.518
having fun like fun is such a critical
00:32:48.518 --> 00:32:54.018
component of wild coast I think and because it's heavy work right?
00:32:54.238 --> 00:32:58.338
We're always, it feels like we're always fighting a battle that can't be won.
00:32:58.458 --> 00:33:00.158
We're always pushing a boulder up a hill.
00:33:00.358 --> 00:33:05.598
We're always trying to communicate to people why the work we do is critically
00:33:05.598 --> 00:33:07.418
important to every person.
00:33:08.178 --> 00:33:12.398
And so we try to have a lot of fun at work. And I think that's important.
00:33:13.318 --> 00:33:17.518
Well, I, yeah, here, here to everything you just completely agree.
00:33:17.758 --> 00:33:22.438
And, you You know, you're a good communicator, and that's a skill,
00:33:22.458 --> 00:33:24.998
and you can develop that. Some people have it more inherently.
00:33:25.278 --> 00:33:28.518
And you were recently a TEDx speaker for TEDx San Diego.
00:33:29.458 --> 00:33:34.298
And so what's your approach? What do you take to translate complex environmental
00:33:34.298 --> 00:33:38.438
and social issues into these stories that the public can absorb?
00:33:39.454 --> 00:33:42.894
Oh, it's a good question. It's so critically important.
00:33:43.134 --> 00:33:47.854
I think science communication is hard, right? Because we're all about data and
00:33:47.854 --> 00:33:49.594
making sure we're saying the right thing and right thing.
00:33:49.754 --> 00:33:53.834
But what the TEDx experience taught me is, you know, ultimately,
00:33:54.154 --> 00:34:00.094
I truly believe we humans, no matter where you come from, we all want the same thing.
00:34:00.094 --> 00:34:05.934
And to me, that is access to clean air and clean water, opportunities to visit
00:34:05.934 --> 00:34:12.594
open spaces, and knowing that there are opportunities for our kids or generations to come.
00:34:12.754 --> 00:34:17.854
I don't think that these things are really things anyone should be arguing about, even though we do.
00:34:17.854 --> 00:34:24.314
But in my opinion where the environmental movement has failed and continues to fail,
00:34:25.194 --> 00:34:28.394
is as scientists we tend to logic bomb
00:34:28.394 --> 00:34:32.754
people and say but if this then this like climate change the world's gonna die
00:34:32.754 --> 00:34:39.774
or or alternatively we're hardcore dramatic tree huggers and i definitely identify
00:34:39.774 --> 00:34:46.114
as that i have hugged many trees in my life but really what we need to be doing is.
00:34:46.998 --> 00:34:51.238
Talking to people in a language that they understand and on their level.
00:34:51.438 --> 00:34:54.698
And I specifically mean this politically too.
00:34:54.978 --> 00:35:01.338
Like how is investing in the environment going to help equity and human health?
00:35:01.818 --> 00:35:06.098
And whereas in Taylor Guitars, for example,
00:35:06.438 --> 00:35:09.918
I was approaching it from a forest conservation, you know, oh my gosh,
00:35:10.078 --> 00:35:14.938
these biodiverse forests are magical and so unique and we need to protect them
00:35:14.938 --> 00:35:17.858
for their intrinsic value and for ecosystem services value.
00:35:18.218 --> 00:35:24.658
Whereas from Bob Taylor's perspective, he was like, if we protect these forests
00:35:24.658 --> 00:35:28.278
and they continue to be healthy and biodiverse,
00:35:28.458 --> 00:35:33.658
they will produce the best ebony trees that I can continue to make guitars out of.
00:35:33.778 --> 00:35:36.758
And it takes 50 to 80 years for those trees to grow.
00:35:36.898 --> 00:35:40.598
So I've got to be in this for the long haul. and that
00:35:40.598 --> 00:35:43.418
helped me understand that we're in it for this
00:35:43.418 --> 00:35:46.178
the same long game it's a means to an
00:35:46.178 --> 00:35:48.878
end i don't care if he's a tree hugger i don't care if he's
00:35:48.878 --> 00:35:51.618
a hardcore republican i don't care if we
00:35:51.618 --> 00:35:54.418
argue over recycling and using paper towels
00:35:54.418 --> 00:35:57.718
in the kitchen which we did argue about those things but we
00:35:57.718 --> 00:36:01.218
both had vested interests in forest conservation
00:36:01.218 --> 00:36:04.818
and i think that environmentalists need
00:36:04.818 --> 00:36:07.618
to take the little bit of time to get to know
00:36:07.618 --> 00:36:11.438
who they're talking to either one-on-one or in a group setting what's
00:36:11.438 --> 00:36:14.718
important to that person and I guarantee you if
00:36:14.718 --> 00:36:18.498
you ask a few times we'll get to the same answer and build
00:36:18.498 --> 00:36:21.918
off of that instead of throwing things
00:36:21.918 --> 00:36:26.018
from right and left and saying but this but that because we
00:36:26.018 --> 00:36:31.198
need to work faster and we need to work harder and more aggressively and we
00:36:31.198 --> 00:36:36.818
are not going to solve any of the world's environmental problems by fighting
00:36:36.818 --> 00:36:43.638
with each other so yeah I love I love just trying to get to common ground with people and I think.
00:36:44.518 --> 00:36:47.378
We everyone can do this we can all find it,
00:36:48.016 --> 00:36:51.336
Yeah. And, you know, something you said before, like when we were preparing
00:36:51.336 --> 00:36:56.376
for this is meeting people where they are with the information and tools that resonate with them.
00:36:56.556 --> 00:36:59.496
And so I think, you know, that example you just gave is that,
00:36:59.616 --> 00:37:05.556
like, you care about, like, forest conservation for different reasons than maybe
00:37:05.556 --> 00:37:06.676
your previous employer did.
00:37:06.776 --> 00:37:09.076
But at the end of the day, you wanted the same result.
00:37:09.596 --> 00:37:11.296
Yeah. And your drivers are different.
00:37:11.956 --> 00:37:15.256
But that doesn't mean that you don't ultimately want the same thing.
00:37:15.256 --> 00:37:21.396
And so forcing people to your viewpoint is, you said, that's the uphill battle, too.
00:37:21.596 --> 00:37:24.096
Yeah. And you don't even have to bring up your own drivers, right?
00:37:24.196 --> 00:37:26.296
Like, this happens a lot in Wild Coast, too.
00:37:26.436 --> 00:37:32.216
So we're working to protect the marine protected areas off of San Diego Coast.
00:37:32.376 --> 00:37:35.176
We have 11 MPAs here. Yeah.
00:37:36.151 --> 00:37:41.191
On the outside, it might appear as if, oh, we're trying to put a boundary around
00:37:41.191 --> 00:37:46.851
these MPAs so that they're protected for the environment, much like with terrestrial national parks.
00:37:47.471 --> 00:37:50.291
And there are no take zones. You can't be fishing in here.
00:37:50.451 --> 00:37:53.051
So on the outside, the fishing community might be like, hey,
00:37:53.191 --> 00:37:55.991
man, you're like drawing lines. And this is where we get our livelihood.
00:37:56.251 --> 00:37:57.271
This is where we recreate. Right.
00:37:57.911 --> 00:38:05.351
Where if we come at it from the starting point of healthy marine ecosystems
00:38:05.351 --> 00:38:06.951
produce bigger and more fish.
00:38:08.171 --> 00:38:13.611
So when we talk to fishers instead, say, hey, you know, like we we fish, too.
00:38:13.811 --> 00:38:17.991
We like to eat fish, too. And we all want bigger, healthier,
00:38:18.331 --> 00:38:21.671
more abundant fish populations in the ocean. And stop.
00:38:22.411 --> 00:38:26.231
Yeah. Cool. We can agree on that. Okay. And then you build from there instead
00:38:26.231 --> 00:38:30.591
of saying, you can't be doing this and you can't be lobster trapping over here.
00:38:30.751 --> 00:38:35.391
And like, that's where, you know, no one wants to talk to you when you're being
00:38:35.391 --> 00:38:37.031
like that in any situation.
00:38:37.731 --> 00:38:42.231
Yeah. No, it's a complex issue and problem and a lot more to say about that,
00:38:42.311 --> 00:38:43.911
but I'm going to keep going.
00:38:44.911 --> 00:38:47.731
I don't feel like we could talk all day. I know. I know.
00:38:47.891 --> 00:38:50.671
I had like 10 things I wanted to say there. I'm like, but I'm going to keep
00:38:50.671 --> 00:38:53.611
going because we're getting close to our time.
00:38:53.731 --> 00:39:00.831
But so with Wild Coast, what's the vision you're steering towards with Wild Coast?
00:39:01.924 --> 00:39:06.664
Yeah, well, we would like to say, you know, if there's a wild coast anywhere
00:39:06.664 --> 00:39:08.344
in the world, we want it to stay wild.
00:39:09.024 --> 00:39:15.404
And so any way we can expand the areas in which we work, we're trying hard.
00:39:15.584 --> 00:39:18.964
I think right now we're working in California and Mexico, but if we could work
00:39:18.964 --> 00:39:23.124
in other countries in Central and South America, or further up the coast,
00:39:23.344 --> 00:39:26.244
Alaska, Canada, like we want to be there.
00:39:26.244 --> 00:39:29.704
And like any non-profit organization
00:39:29.704 --> 00:39:32.724
you have to build a sustainable financial model which
00:39:32.724 --> 00:39:35.684
is very tough in a volatile economy based on
00:39:35.684 --> 00:39:39.524
grants and individual donations and corporate support and things like that but
00:39:39.524 --> 00:39:45.064
i think we're fortunately in a place where we are growing right now we just
00:39:45.064 --> 00:39:52.144
hired two new people and i think we have plans to hire two more because we are
00:39:52.144 --> 00:39:55.224
fighting as hard as we've ever fought.
00:39:55.384 --> 00:40:01.464
I think in this day and age, you just have to try everything and throw everything
00:40:01.464 --> 00:40:03.064
you have at the problems because...
00:40:04.220 --> 00:40:07.440
Our beautiful natural environment, specifically coastal ones,
00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:10.200
are rapidly disappearing.
00:40:11.060 --> 00:40:15.340
And with something like corals, for example, we have a corals program.
00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:19.820
Coral bleaching is happening at unprecedented rates around the world where these
00:40:19.820 --> 00:40:21.840
animals are dying and they're unable to recover.
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:27.780
And that has everything to do with sea level or sea temperatures, ocean temperatures.
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:30.660
So if we're not stopping climate change there's nothing we
00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:33.800
can do to save corals and then it has this downstream domino
00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:37.680
impact on all forest ecosystems and then
00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:41.260
the world collapses and we all die is you know if you think far ahead enough
00:40:41.260 --> 00:40:46.440
so so yeah what we're doing is is urgent it's so urgent and so important and
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:52.020
it's what drives us and so like to answer your question every day the staff
00:40:52.020 --> 00:40:55.300
we all show up and we're like what can we do faster what can we do more,
00:40:56.380 --> 00:41:02.080
and given the financial and political boundaries that we have in different places.
00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:06.740
But it's a it's a it's fun time to be an environmentalist, too, I think. Sorry.
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.720
Yeah. No, no, no shortage of work. And on the flip side of that,
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:13.500
you know, there's the doom and gloom.
00:41:13.660 --> 00:41:16.540
And if we don't do this, you said it's you're fighting and it's hard,
00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:18.740
but you you're passionate. You have a passionate team.
00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:23.820
You know, AP has a lot of passionate members, non-AP people also passionate.
00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:27.600
So on the other side of that, to contrast that, what gives you hope about the
00:41:27.600 --> 00:41:29.740
future of the environmental industry and the work you're doing?
00:41:30.615 --> 00:41:35.395
Well, AEP is a great example. There are so many really smart,
00:41:35.555 --> 00:41:39.375
passionate people trying to solve all of these problems from different angles.
00:41:40.015 --> 00:41:44.835
And I think we need to lean on each other and rely on each other when things
00:41:44.835 --> 00:41:47.235
get super tough, like they are now.
00:41:47.235 --> 00:41:51.935
And while things might not be the best they've ever been for environmentalists
00:41:51.935 --> 00:41:55.295
in the United States, in other countries that's not the case, right?
00:41:55.395 --> 00:41:58.875
And I think even if our friends in Mexico with Claudia Sheinbaum being president
00:41:58.875 --> 00:42:02.975
and she's got a science degree and a super pro-environmental work,
00:42:02.995 --> 00:42:06.835
we're seeing a lot of movement there, which is exciting.
00:42:07.175 --> 00:42:11.415
And politically the pendulum is always going to be swinging and you just have
00:42:11.415 --> 00:42:16.975
to keep moving forward. So I think locally, hyper locally.
00:42:17.255 --> 00:42:23.355
We're doing some restoration projects in Tecalote Canyon, which is a great space
00:42:23.355 --> 00:42:25.355
to run and hike if you've not been there.
00:42:25.555 --> 00:42:31.235
Totally recommend it. It's like right off of the SeaWorld exit, I think, going inland.
00:42:31.715 --> 00:42:39.175
And we've removed like literally thousands of tons of invasive species biomass and are replanting.
00:42:39.575 --> 00:42:43.155
And even at the trailhead, you can start to see now that it's raining,
00:42:43.255 --> 00:42:46.455
the plants are a little bigger, and you're seeing butterflies that weren't there before.
00:42:46.575 --> 00:42:48.695
You're hearing birds that weren't there before.
00:42:48.835 --> 00:42:53.335
And it's a teeny tiny little chunk of land in the Mission Bay watershed,
00:42:53.335 --> 00:42:57.495
and the wildlife is already starting to thrive more.
00:42:57.715 --> 00:43:02.215
And so little things like that, you're like, ugh, it's so hard and it's so big, but it's not.
00:43:02.375 --> 00:43:06.575
Focus on the little things that are right in front of you because they're so important too.
00:43:06.855 --> 00:43:10.515
And it's not hard, right? You just need a little bit of funding,
00:43:10.675 --> 00:43:14.155
a little bit of elbow grease, and we can fix a lot of things locally.
00:43:14.355 --> 00:43:18.735
Even planting native species in your backyard, you'll see a difference. So...
00:43:19.452 --> 00:43:23.652
Just got to hang on to that little stuff. I was hiking Tech Lodi.
00:43:23.672 --> 00:43:27.872
It was probably, I don't know, four or five months ago. And I say hiking, I was walking.
00:43:28.132 --> 00:43:32.432
But I had my Merlin app out listening to birds. Oh, yay!
00:43:32.812 --> 00:43:36.172
There was a coyote behind us. There you go. Awesome.
00:43:36.652 --> 00:43:40.032
It was very, and I definitely saw butterflies when we were there.
00:43:40.152 --> 00:43:42.892
And I remember thinking like, oh, we're like in the middle of the city.
00:43:43.292 --> 00:43:46.612
And there's this like great nature area that's so accessible.
00:43:46.612 --> 00:43:49.952
And it felt like we were like miles and miles outside.
00:43:50.272 --> 00:43:54.832
Anyway, I got to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Yay, cool.
00:43:55.232 --> 00:43:59.072
And also, like, it's so good for mental health too, right? Especially as environmentalists.
00:43:59.132 --> 00:44:01.492
Just like be outside and you don't have to...
00:44:01.961 --> 00:44:06.221
Drive a million miles. You can just go to Tecolote and be like, oh, cool. Check it out.
00:44:06.881 --> 00:44:09.881
Yeah. Well, I think, too, you know, you started this conversation off talking
00:44:09.881 --> 00:44:15.181
about how, you know, you got to experience nature and wildlife early in your
00:44:15.181 --> 00:44:19.081
life and that had such an impact on your career and what's driving you.
00:44:19.341 --> 00:44:23.661
And there's a lot of people that we speak with on this podcast and,
00:44:23.761 --> 00:44:26.341
you know, just networking and people you meet,
00:44:26.501 --> 00:44:29.861
there's something that connects them to the environment early
00:44:29.861 --> 00:44:32.781
age so it's like you know future generations and neighborhoods
00:44:32.781 --> 00:44:35.701
they come up and like or like people in the community like
00:44:35.701 --> 00:44:40.481
who live by there like get to experience that and you know hopefully impact
00:44:40.481 --> 00:44:45.681
the next generation with some passion for protection dude we and that's you
00:44:45.681 --> 00:44:50.261
know you love what you know and you protect what you love and so yeah getting
00:44:50.261 --> 00:44:53.741
outside getting to our oceans even going to zoos for example and like seeing
00:44:53.741 --> 00:44:55.601
things that you might you know some people,
00:44:55.801 --> 00:44:58.541
most people never go to Africa and see lions in the wild.
00:44:58.741 --> 00:45:04.021
It's pretty cool. But yeah, this is like access, access to these spaces is so
00:45:04.021 --> 00:45:09.621
critically important because otherwise we won't have a generation of environmentalists after us, right?
00:45:10.501 --> 00:45:14.281
Yeah. And so we're getting at the end of our time and I knew this would happen
00:45:14.281 --> 00:45:17.801
that we'd be talking a long time, which is great. I love it.
00:45:17.881 --> 00:45:19.221
That's the point, right? It's a podcast.
00:45:19.801 --> 00:45:23.601
But, you know, kind of moving just a quick question before you wrap up or,
00:45:23.881 --> 00:45:27.241
you know, it doesn't have to be quick, but you have a lot of creative interests.
00:45:27.381 --> 00:45:31.861
You're a very creative person. So you bake, you surf, you sing, you play guitar.
00:45:32.021 --> 00:45:34.341
You mentioned earlier your musical prowess.
00:45:34.721 --> 00:45:41.001
So how do you or how do these creative and grounding practices influence the
00:45:41.001 --> 00:45:45.501
way you show up as a leader when you're dealing with these very complex, big problems?
00:45:46.101 --> 00:45:54.741
Oh, yeah. Good question. I think for me, one of the critical skills I need as
00:45:54.741 --> 00:45:57.841
a leader is active listening and patience.
00:45:58.873 --> 00:46:05.753
And when people don't feel heard or they don't feel important or part of the
00:46:05.753 --> 00:46:10.153
conversation, even having a seat at the table, you're missing out on so much
00:46:10.153 --> 00:46:12.913
because everyone has something to contribute.
00:46:13.233 --> 00:46:19.573
And also, I, from a business perspective, I think happy employees will give
00:46:19.573 --> 00:46:21.193
you 110% of their effort.
00:46:21.393 --> 00:46:26.593
So you're actually saving money by making sure that your employees are happy.
00:46:26.593 --> 00:46:32.553
And to answer your question, in order for me to show up consistently with space
00:46:32.553 --> 00:46:37.873
to hold for people and with patience and with kindness and with happiness,
00:46:37.873 --> 00:46:40.173
I need to be all of those things, right?
00:46:40.173 --> 00:46:46.673
And so that's why I make time to play in my bands, to go outside,
00:46:46.673 --> 00:46:50.473
to deliver a cake to somebody who needs a sweet treat.
00:46:51.193 --> 00:46:54.113
I mean, I'm lucky because I don't have kids. I'm not married,
00:46:54.113 --> 00:46:58.253
so I have, quote unquote, a little more free time than a lot of other people.
00:46:58.253 --> 00:47:02.173
But you can't fake that stuff, you know?
00:47:02.373 --> 00:47:10.513
So my mental health, my capacity to give to others has to be intact most of
00:47:10.513 --> 00:47:12.093
the time. You know, we all have shitty days.
00:47:12.273 --> 00:47:15.893
In order for me to show up and have that for other people.
00:47:16.533 --> 00:47:23.613
Great. Great advice and lesson. And on that note, we'll wrap up into our Wrap Up Rapid 5.
00:47:24.033 --> 00:47:27.033
Yay! So what is your favorite daily habit?
00:47:27.953 --> 00:47:30.853
People are probably going to scoff at this, but I love CrossFit.
00:47:31.913 --> 00:47:36.093
That's one of the things. If I don't lift weights, heavy weights,
00:47:36.153 --> 00:47:38.513
and run fast, I get irritable.
00:47:39.293 --> 00:47:43.513
Well, you fulfilled your CrossFit obligation by talking about it.
00:47:46.693 --> 00:47:49.373
What are three things you'd bring to a deserted island?
00:47:50.349 --> 00:47:54.489
A really good utility knife or pocket knife with a bunch of tools on it.
00:47:54.869 --> 00:48:01.949
Probably a bag of seeds so I can grow my own food. And then I would bring a guitar.
00:48:02.249 --> 00:48:05.229
Hopefully it's relatively waterproof and I have a lot of extra strings,
00:48:05.409 --> 00:48:09.269
but something to like make me not go crazy. There you go.
00:48:10.609 --> 00:48:15.009
What's your favorite environmental policy? The Montreal Protocol,
00:48:15.349 --> 00:48:18.889
hands down. And for those who maybe don't remember or haven't heard of it,
00:48:19.029 --> 00:48:24.309
it's the one that helped stop the ozone or the hole in the ozone layer and acid rain.
00:48:24.489 --> 00:48:30.669
And why it's my favorite is because it's this huge international policy that
00:48:30.669 --> 00:48:33.009
required all countries buy in.
00:48:33.129 --> 00:48:35.349
And it worked. It worked.
00:48:35.569 --> 00:48:39.169
Like, can't we use that as a model to solve climate change? I don't know why.
00:48:39.349 --> 00:48:41.329
But yeah, definitely Montreal Protocol. Cool.
00:48:42.089 --> 00:48:46.669
Love that. That's a new one for this. What's your favorite flora or fauna?
00:48:47.809 --> 00:48:51.809
Probably jellyfish. I love the cnidarians. Yeah, I just think it's very elegant
00:48:51.809 --> 00:48:55.809
how they float around and feed themselves and defend themselves.
00:48:56.069 --> 00:49:01.969
It's just a bizarre blip in evolution that I just find very beautiful.
00:49:03.949 --> 00:49:09.449
And finish this sentence, wouldn't it be cool if we were all kind to each other.
00:49:10.369 --> 00:49:13.389
Hear, hear again. Thank you so much, Anne.
00:49:13.589 --> 00:49:17.009
It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us.
00:49:17.689 --> 00:49:18.809
All right, I'll talk to you soon.
00:49:20.649 --> 00:49:24.629
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00:49:24.629 --> 00:49:27.869
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00:49:28.109 --> 00:49:31.689
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00:49:31.689 --> 00:49:33.069
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00:49:33.329 --> 00:49:37.129
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