When Being Needed Replaces Being Known (with Therapist Emily Zeller)

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Welcome to Enneagram with JB, a podcast about Enneagram personalities, where you'll uncover and discover more about yourself and others through the helpful tool of the Enneagram.
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Welcome back to Enneagram with JB.
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I am Jackie Brewster, your host, and I am so excited today to be talking to Emily Zowler about um the subtypes.
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And so Emily is a therapist, she's an Enneagram 2.
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We're gonna dive into what it is like to be a sexual subtype of a two, which we a lot of the times I'll ref like reference the sexual subtype as a one-to-one because it just feels like, you know, people can misunderstand what we're talking about, honestly.
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But Emily, I'm excited to have you today.
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I'm excited about this conversation.
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I can't wait to hear your wisdom and just your life experience when it comes to being an Enneagram too with this particular subtype.
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So welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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I just, you know, her and I are just kind of laughing at the at the messiness of myself these days.
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Um, and it's true.
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So I am I'm all up in my seven.
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I am floating around and, you know, trying to figure things out.
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Okay, so as we set this subtype conversation up, I have a ton of information about the Enneagram subtypes on my socials.
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So if you want to go check that out, Enneagram with JB.
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But when we're looking at the self-preservation social or sexual, or also known as one-to-one subtype within the Enneagram system, this has a lot to do with focus of attention and how we get our needs met and how we've learned to do this.
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A lot of the work that I do with the Enneagram, it stems from the early childhood experience because we're talking about personality.
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Personality begins to develop between the ages of two and seven, which is fascinating.
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We don't even, as parents, we don't even know, you know, if you don't know, you don't know that so much of development is happening, such, you know, at such an early stage of life.
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And this doesn't mean that it's it's fixed, but it is set.
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There are a lot of pieces and components set into place.
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One thing I I do want to just mention is that the way that I teach the Enneagram is both nurture and nature.
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It's both elements.
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It's temperament that I believe does not change, but environment influences all of this.
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And so as we dive into this, Emily, I want to hear a little bit about your experience with the Enneagram before we even talk about your Enneagram type, because you are also a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this.
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So share with us a little bit about how you came to the Enneagram and how you use it today.
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So I first learned about the Enneagram in 2016.
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So about a decade ago, my best friend gave me the wisdom of the Enneagram.
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And I was obsessed like immediately.
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I've been into other personality typings before, but it like right away was just had so much more depth.
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I felt seen, and I was just like, what is this?
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And how do I get more of it?
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Uh so then I got certified with CP Enneagram Academy and went through all their program and trainings and have learned so much from both of them.
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And now I really can't not be using it, even if people don't want to be using it.
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So I'm using it in my brain, even if the client or the person in front of me doesn't enjoy it.
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So it's just, I love it.
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Yeah, I do too.
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I love it so much.
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I've been setting it for such a long time.
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And and it gives us such an entry point, you know, like it, I think it gives us language to things that we have felt personally that we couldn't express or it didn't make a lot of sense to us.
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And then when we use it with clients, I use it as a coach, you use it as a therapist, when we use it with clients, we're not trying to put anybody in a box or anything like that.
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It really helps us to understand what's in front of us, but it also helps the client to be able to navigate with some language and with some understanding.
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And I find it, I find it very, very useful.
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For sure.
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I I like what you said about it being a different language because I also think it helps us not take things personally.
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When I we learn about the other types and just how people are just showing up from a completely different spot, it helps it not feel so personal.
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Not that it doesn't still happen, but it helps with that.
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Right.
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It slows it all down.
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I had to learn really early on, like, I don't like the way that this makes me feel, but that doesn't mean that anybody's doing anything wrong.
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I just maybe don't like the way it feels.
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And as a seven, I don't like conflict and negativity and um, I don't know, like uh I don't like crazy, even though I am a little crazy.
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I don't like the crazy different kind of crazy though, right?
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I want fun and excitement and all this stuff.
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I was I was doing like a two-day retreat with a team here in Nashville this past week, and I talked about our dinner table, which is my my husband's inneagram three, I'm a seven, and then we've got a son that's a five, a daughter that's a six, a daughter that's an eight, a daughter that's a four, and then a future son-in-law who is an eight.
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And so talking about dynamics in that room, but we don't have any twos, nines, ones, you know, like some of the ones that I think would maybe balance us out a little bit instead.
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It's just like a tornado that happens.
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And my husband and I are both a little bit more um like emotionally, we're better now, but definitely avoidant.
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Like if it's not fun, then let's not do it.
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If it's not, both of us are like, oh my gosh.
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And then my daughters are all reactive, four, six, eight.
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They're in that reactive.
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And so it's big, it's a lot, it's all but all the things.
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One of the things that you shared with me that you love to work with couples and you love to work with women in postpartum.
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Listen to that, be mindful of that.
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If you guys are listening to this and you're looking for some information and different stuff, maybe you want to do some counseling and things like that.
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So just be but be listening for those things.
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So those are kind of her expertise.
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And so as we talk about the subtypes, so self-preservation, that subtype is gonna be more about I'm gonna make sure I have everything I need.
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I'm gonna make sure that I have a roof over my head, finances are tight and right.
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Um, I've got food.
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If I have to go to the bath, I'm gonna go to the bathroom.
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And and I say that on purpose because there's another subtype that that isn't like that.
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So self-preservation is more about I'm gonna take care of me.
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Um, and then we've got the social subtype, and that one typically is more herd mentality, more doing it together, needing people, wanting community, um, really needing that that energy from other people as well.
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And then the sexual or the one-to-one, this is the chemistry and connection.
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This is it's not, it's not about sex, even though we call it sexual.
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And I think that that's where it can get so off track.
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But there's an intensity, a drive, a need, a longing, a want within this subtype.
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And this is the one that will like dismiss their own for whatever's in the moment.
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So they they might maybe they're not gonna eat even though they their belly is, you know, telling them they're hungry, or they're not gonna go to the bathroom, even though they have to, but they don't want to get up from the meeting or that conversation or whatever's happening.
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So there's a lot that's happening within these subtypes and how the different personality types can show up so differently.
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So as you learned about your Enneagram 2, um, because right off the bat, I'm sure you didn't realize subtypes were so important.
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No, I did not.
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But they're life-changing.
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They really are.
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So when you began reading about your Enneagram 2 and the wisdom of the Enneagram, that that was the first book I was given as well.
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Um, it's still my favorite book, like by far my favorite.
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That so when you started to read about yourself, what were the aha moments that you experienced?
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Well, the complete Enneagram is one that I also really love.
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And sh Beatrice Chestnut, she does a deep dive on all of them in a way that just makes it very digestible and easy to understand.
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Uh, but I think when most people think of a type two, they think of the social two.
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So the helper, the hostess, the one that's gonna bring you a casserole.
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Like that's not me.
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Unless you're one of my like specific people, I'm not gonna be doing that in the same way that a social two will be signing up for all the church school organizations running it.
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This is some of this is stereotype, but just what people normally think of.
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And then the self-pres too is the countertype.
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So they don't really look like a two, but they are a two.
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So when I read about the one-to-one two, and just like the need to be indispensable to really wanna have one or two like close people and just like can't get enough of that.
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I mean, I I was like crying.
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Like I had never read something again that was like so specific.
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Because two landed right away, but then it's like, oh, the sexual two.
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Like, that's why I'm more intense.
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That's why it's hard for me to slow down.
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Oh, that's why I, if I have needs, especially if someone else in my life has them, they're gonna be even more like not there, in quotes.
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So it just kind of really helped put everything together when I could see the three different types.
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And then we all have each of the instincts, but in different orders.
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And I, yeah, outside of knowing your number, I think knowing your dominant instinct is just really beneficial.
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I do too.
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I think that that is that's one of the pieces, places I go pretty quick with my clients is what subtype are we looking at?
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And because I feel like when you look at the subtype, and then and I use wings, there's other, there's other teachers that are not as inclined to use wings.
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So there's a lot of different ways you can teach this.
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But when I look at the wings, I look at the subtype within that wing.
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I look at the growth within that, that subtype and the stress in that subtype because I think that that gives us a much bigger picture, a clearer picture of the person.
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So I when I, you know, when I was younger, I definitely registered more sexual subtype of the seven.
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So much more rose colored glasses, whatever, just like floating around.
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Idealizing dreamer.
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I mean, I still got a good amount of that in me right now, guys.
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Okay.
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Right now.
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Um that chemistry and connection seeking that person, I'm definitely not herd mentality.
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Like I don't need it.
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I want my people, but I don't want a lot of people.
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Um, I love a lot of people, but as far as like I cannot the capacity, maybe that's it.
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And I think that safety for me when I think back to early childhood experiences, smaller was safe for me.
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So just a small group of people was much more safe for me.
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Um, or it felt more safe.
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But what I could tell you today is that I am I function much more self-preservation seven.
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So what does that mean for you?
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Self-prez seven.
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Self-prez seven is more workaholic, more feet on the ground.
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My head is it's not in the clouds as much.
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I'm more realistic.
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I'm an eight too.
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So seven, eight in in that self-prez range.
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It is like it can feel more eight-ish, it can feel much more get it done, go after things.
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I I can see opportunity, I can see possibility, but there's still that that messy seven that's like we could do it all, but we can't.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Like September has been a very like in your face for me.
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Like, you cannot do it all.
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What what are you doing right now?
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And because I don't want to say no to anything.
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Everything, all these fun things have been happening.
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And so, but I can definitely that see the spin out of the seven this month more clearly than I have in a lot of years, actually.
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But that self-preservation, it's it's more grounding.
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That's what I would say.
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Um, I'm not, I think the younger me was like, let absolutely let's jump out of a plane.
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Um the older me is like, I'm not gonna do that.
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No, thank you.
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Like, uh, can we just go to dinner?
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Like, do we, I don't want to do that.
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More comfortable with limits or slowing it down a little bit, more practical.
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Yeah, but the stack of it, but I do see the social part of my personality as well in the because the the seven um counter type is the social.
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And so that one is like it's less gluttony, right?
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So it's more let me give, and I've done a lot of ministry and a lot of outreach and a lot of um sacrifice in a lot of different ways.
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And so I I see all of them, um, but if we're asking how they stack, right, and which one's dominant today, self-prez, sexual, social.
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What about you?
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I want to hear about your experience.
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So I'm sexual, social, self-pres.
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Uh, so that looks again like we talked a little bit about earlier.
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My antennas are always gonna be out for certain specific people, uh, and then the group, and then myself.
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So the third being my blind or repressed instinct, unless I'm being really intentional about trying to move that up, it can be a real blind spot for me.
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Overgive, I would say, would be the automatic response.
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But it's not all altruistic.
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I think that it's so tricky to talk about this because it's there's so many twos that or in just moms in general, as you will maybe relate to this, like we get so much uh praise for overgiving.
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It's so like expected, uh, but it can be to like an even more uh unhealthy degree, I would say, for twos because they're so other focused.
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But then the expectations can be tricky when they're not met in return.
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So what happens to you when you have overgiven and you didn't catch it, right?
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But then you begin to feel it.
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And what how does how would you say that that gets expressed today?
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I would say I still have a hard time noticing it.
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I think that's gonna be my life work.
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Uh, I have to really be intentional all the time to be pausing and checking like, is this mine?
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Is this not?
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Is this something I want to be doing, or am I feeling obligated to do it?
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Uh, but if I reach a point of overdoing it, which I do often, I it can lead to either withdrawal, it can lead to a lot of anger or taking things out on my husband or my kids, unfortunately, and kind of the like, how can you not see that I have needs or like just and not even being aware of it either, just like shorter fuse, impatient.
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It it sometimes takes me like acting psychotic to realize I need a nap or I need to be alone.
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So that's my honest answer.
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Yeah, I like your honest answer.
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I think that a lot of us find ourselves in places of like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with me?
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And we we miss the buildup of how we got there, right?
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I used to think like all the all the wrong with me was somebody else's fault.
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You know, like it's every all of you people demand so much of me.
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What do you want?
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And now I'm like, oh no, I think I have a fear of missing out, so I do do do do do because I don't want to miss out on anything.
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Um, and your doing is not the same necessarily as missing out, it's has a lot more to do with connection.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, mine is more if I'm not being needed or I'm not doing, then I'll be abandoned.
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So I tried, it's the automatic, like, I'm gonna make myself indispensable or necessary.
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So then I won't be alone.
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I mean, that's like the foundational trigger.
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When we look at the Enneagram to some of the language is not great, right?
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And just like any of the types, some of the language can feel like, ooh, I don't want people to read that about me.
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What are they gonna think?
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Um, like one of like attraction, um, seduction.
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Oh, the two mine is the it's awful.
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It's the seduction aggressor and it's the vampire.
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It's like such a cringy, it's so cringy.
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But it's true.
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I mean, I'd be lying if I didn't say that instinct isn't there to like I'm gonna be so connected to you and see you away, no one else has seen you, and then you're not gonna know what to do with it, which again, it sounds gross.
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But the flip side or the inside of that is often it can feel though, like I'm gonna be like blood dry, like I could give and give and give, and it's not enough.
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So it's a it's a pendulum, it's a really tricky pendulum.
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I think it's you know, when we hear like the seduction side of the Enneagram too, and you're like, oh, well, what is and especially as a woman, that can feel like dangerous.
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It can be.
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Okay, talk about it because nobody talks about this stuff.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like we read these things and you're like, what does this mean?
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Yeah, talk about it.
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And in general, I think I do feel very passionate.
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I think all sexual dominant women, no matter the um the number, I feel like protective of because we're often just assumed to be eights.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:20:00.480
Like I've had multiple times where I'll go to like an Enneagram event, have like a short interaction with someone, and they'll be like, Are you sure you're a two?
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.480
And that used to like really bother me a lot.
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.200
Now I'm like, oh, that's great.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:13.279
You're seeing me in my power, or like you you are taking me as confident.
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:18.400
Like, and I'm trying, you know, try to be like, I don't have to prove to you that I'm a two.
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:25.440
But I would say for how that can show up in a good way or bad way.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:40.319
I mean, what what would be let me just pause right there what you what you were just saying, as far as all of the the sexual one-to-one dominant women, regardless of your personality type, fiery, feisty.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:47.440
There's a drive, an intensity, a passion you are gonna feel from this personality type.
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:52.400
There is a draw to there is a, there's there, uh it's chemistry.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.319
Like I don't even know how else to say it.
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:55.440
That's perfect.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:07.039
It's coming towards it's like no issue, engaging, alluring, like, yeah, again, I hate the word seducing because it's not just sexual, but yeah.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:07.599
Right.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:15.680
And that's that's where I'm gonna go too, is that it's not just sexual, but with that, I mean, uh people ask me all they just assume I'm an eight all the time.
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:29.039
And I'm like, I'm not like I know I had to I had to read through that too, because I thought maybe I was, but the seven aligns to a T with for me, and then I have a lot of eight because that's my wing.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:36.559
I I can definitely see it, which is great, and also no shame on the women that are eights in the world either.
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:44.799
Like that's I they have a hard, yeah, hard hill to die on because people are also very judgmental of women that are eights.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.640
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:59.759
To your point though, if a woman is like strong, confident, not like showing a whole lot of meekness, we'll say people, a lot of people just can't.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.599
But it doesn't even make sense to them.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.519
So they're like, oh, she's an eight.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:04.480
All right.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:05.119
It's interesting.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.880
So I grew up in Massachusetts and I don't know that that's the same there.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.480
I live in Tennessee.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:10.960
Okay.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:13.839
Very much as here, very, very much in the south.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:17.519
But up north, all my cousins and everybody, everybody's just who they are.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:25.920
There is not this like um, they don't feel like they have to be anything other than the who they are.
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.240
And and I think that that's interesting too.
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:35.440
They're all strong, assertive, but they're like twos and sixes and all different numbers too, you know, inside of that.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.680
But there is a feistiness to them.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.039
And so even region could matter on how we shower up.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:42.319
Oh, for sure.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:23:00.640
And just you're reminding me of how important it is to not assume you know someone before being curious, especially with a certain heart types, all types, but like assuming you know when twos just like really want to be known.
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.400
It's just like very hurtful times too.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:10.400
It's like I feel rejected and I haven't even like gotten a chance to be rejected.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.799
You're already telling me you think you know things about me that aren't true.
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:24.240
I resisted the Enneagram or any typing system for years because I was like, people, I'm not gonna let people think they know something that they and they don't know me.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.720
You know, I mean, I so resistant.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.640
The fact that I even teach Enneagram today is wild because I was like, mm-mm.
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.839
Um, but I think that there's a protective piece around that, especially with this type of work.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.400
This isn't about trying to type people.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.960
This is really individual work around trying to understand your own patterns.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:49.039
So let's talk about that seduction, that that seduction piece, um, being chosen.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:54.000
Like it's not just that sexual seduction.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.759
It's broader than that.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:57.039
Very much so.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:57.599
Yeah.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.000
Will you unpack that a little bit for us?
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:00.559
Yeah.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.240
So there's a couple different um aspects to it.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:13.119
So one, it's not just the best partner, it's I'm gonna be the best friend, the best sister, the best daughter, the best fill in the blank.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:26.799
And again, it comes from if I can be special enough or so connected to you, then you're not gonna forget about me or leave me because I'm gonna give you such a different experience.
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:32.079
High, like overly attunement when it's when it's unhealthy.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:38.160
Another way I think it shows up, and I I still kind of like this.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:25:07.359
We'll see as I'm talking about it, if there's some pride in this, but it's kind of the if there's like like if I can get a five or like an eight, like someone that typically is more guarded to like feel close to me or open up, it's it's kind of like it can ping, just like, okay, yes, like I that was a challenge, but I like was able to get in there.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.119
That's the gross, unhealthy piece of it.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:16.559
But also just being able to really see and connect to people.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.640
That's like the best piece of it.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.400
And then also, though, it can be like, is there any manipulation there?
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:33.519
Are you just trying to get that person to give you attention because they're hard and you're trying to, you know, see what you can do.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:39.759
So it's very strange, but that's how I would kind of describe it.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:45.279
Well, I think it's interesting too, because uh the the two goes to an eight in stress.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.920
So you've got that good old stress point, right?
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.279
So there is a feisty, fiery in stress.
00:25:51.359 --> 00:26:05.279
If you're having a hard time with that connection piece, we might see a bit more, a lot more sometimes, depending on um it it could be turbulent and stormy, which is typically what we think of with the sexual subtype of it for.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:11.759
Um, that if is even language that we would use is turbulent and stormy at times with them in a relationship.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.480
And you've got you've got arrows to both.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:20.400
And so there's a lot, I think, that's going on with the Enneagram too.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:22.240
There can be a cat and mouse game.
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:25.680
There can be a, I want to know you're gonna be here for me.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.799
I I need to know you're not gonna leave me.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:30.720
There can be a testing.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:37.839
There also, I think, can be just this, this would be more eight, but I I want to ask.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:50.400
Like I'm I'm I know I phrase that like there can be, but let me back that up a little bit because I want to ask with the Enneagram eight, they they like a challenge, so they don't like to win too easily.
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:56.240
Do you find with this particular subtype as a two that that could be true?
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:02.400
I've never thought about that before, but I absolutely think that can be at play sometimes.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:08.799
Yeah, especially if I'm not paying attention to it and going right to eight.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:20.319
Um, like, and again, we've talked about this, but like anytime that ping just to like automatically go out of myself, it's like pause, pause, pause.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.640
Like constantly, like God self others, god self others.
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:30.559
Cause it just can be like, ooh, this person, I can't tell if this person likes me.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.559
I'm gonna make them like me, or I don't know what's going on there.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.480
What do I have to do to like figure out, you know, what they're hiding?
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:46.640
It's but that that's not start a relationship or have good intentions behind it.
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:55.920
But yeah, I do think I think it can be for, I wonder if all sexual subtypes would say that a bit of the challenge piece.
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.480
Part of the rival, it's part of the rivalry, right?
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.960
A sexual dominance are all competitive to some degree.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:04.400
So that makes sense.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.200
How would that show up for a seven, you think?
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.119
A sexual seven, or with that as your second one.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:17.039
Yeah, you know, the Enneagram seven, the heart longing is I want to be taken care of.
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:26.240
And so that the difference between the two and the seven is the two wants to know that they're wanted and loved, and so they're gonna move towards to try to get that to happen.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:33.599
The seven wants to know they're gonna be taken care of, but they actually stand independently and push against because they assume it's not going to happen.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:40.559
And so they guard themselves from the thing that they fear, which is I'm not gonna be taken care of, so I will take care of myself.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:41.359
Thank you.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:48.480
And, you know, so it's like they have a really hard time from from their thinking to their heart.
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.680
It's like the hardest work that they'll ever do is head to heart.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.640
And so they can think their way through things, but feeling it is much, much different.
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.039
Where you as a two is gonna, you're gonna feel it.
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:01.039
The seven does not feel it the same way.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.640
They're actually much more detached from things.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:12.240
And so they and they a sexual seven that is not necessarily in the healthy side, okay.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:26.079
They are looking for, they want to feel alive, fun, excitement, um, outrageous, outlandish, like like kind of stirring it, like I think bright colors, glitter.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.920
I think like I just oh yeah, new ideas all the time.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.480
Yeah, and dynamic and feeling it and energy.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.480
Like that's kind of like when I think about um what that looks like.
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:52.240
And so they, yeah, I think Enneagram Sevens have a good the the sexual subtype has a a good uh amount of like, I'll I'm down for the chase.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.839
Let me see if I can get you.
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.440
I bet you I could pull you in.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:56.799
I bet you I can make you laugh.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.559
I bet you I could, you know, like all of that, I bet you I could.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:02.799
I'll be the best time you've ever had.
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:03.440
Right.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.200
But they they're not connection oriented.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.119
So it's it, they they're more flippant.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:12.720
So I got you.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:13.680
Okay, that was fun.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:14.480
Let's go on.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.000
Where the two is like, I got you, now I need to keep you.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:31.519
I like what you just said about sevens need to connect the head to the heart, and twos don't have a direct line or wing to the head center.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:34.720
So, and sevens don't have one to the heart center.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:41.839
We're the only two numbers that don't have access easily to all three, which I think is wild.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.599
I remember when I first learned that, I was so I was like, what?
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:56.960
There's no connection to the, I mean, there's like that extra line from two to five, but it's not on the traditional symbol, but it makes sense.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:58.960
It's really interesting.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.240
And I think that there's a lot of similarities between two and sevens.
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.720
Two and sevens can get mistyped because I do think that they're both warm.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:08.640
Sevens are warm.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:16.240
They, you know, there there's that positive outlook that the two, the seven, and the nine all share.
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:20.640
But there is this like desire to be taken care of.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:36.000
So sevens oftentimes kind of shower people with a type of love different than a two, though, because we can walk away from things where you guys can't, which I think we could probably hurt people.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.960
Well, we can both hurt people in different ways.
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:56.640
So but especially I think a social, I get a lot of social sevens that will be mistyped as twos at first, given the counter type, because they're so much more like other group referencing.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:05.440
Not that the self-present, the sexual seven can't be as well, but that's a pretty common mistype for a two is a social seven.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:13.920
It's just interesting how much the the subtypes play a role in the typing of individuals as well.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.799
Um okay.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:20.559
So when you are thinking about that, um, like how do I draw you toward me?
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.559
How do I become important to you?
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.119
How do how do I create connection?
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.880
How do I, how do I be somebody that you want, right?
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:33.759
So all of this is kind of happening in that that chemistry connection side of the Enneagram too.
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:35.359
It's in a two, anyways.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.079
This is just intensified with this.
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:49.200
So when you're thinking about this and on the healthy side of this, how have you learned to recognize when you're doing it?
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:50.720
Like it might be after, right?
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:52.240
Like you're like in the middle of it.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:53.440
Like, what am I doing?
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.519
Easier to do after.
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:06.400
I think if I'm really intentional about like I need to be staying with myself, I can notice it in real time, but definitely not always.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:23.759
But when I feel disappointed or I my needs aren't met, a lot of times that's because I have unrealistic expectations that someone is supposed to fill something that is supposed to come from God or myself.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:35.519
So it is a pretty, it's helpful to be aware of that, because then, you know, I can do things about it.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:52.559
But when that's unconscious, it looks like continuing to shape shift or continuing to try to prove yourself or make yourself like indispensable, but then feeling really alone and like no one sees you.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:34:02.720
Like that's that's really for the two, I think sexual two especially, it's sacrificing being known for being needed.
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.759
I want to look at this through a somatic lens for a minute.
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:08.480
Okay.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:25.119
So if we right, if you kind of do a bottom, bottom-up approach to this, if you think about how this shows up, you're you're trying, you're striving, you're trying like you're you're you you can feel it, right?
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.440
You're not, but you're not getting what you need.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.039
You're exhausted.
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:34.239
Um, it's not, you're, you feel like you can't say no, you can't stop, whatever.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:46.079
All of this stuff is happening, and the demand is great on you to keep doing, keep showing up, keep, keep trying to be what everybody wants you to be, all that shape shifting that's happening.
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.800
How does your body physically respond?
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:57.360
Because the two's body carries it and usually it shows us in some which way.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.960
How does your body respond to all of this tension and stress?
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:15.280
Uranio often talks about how the twos like will have more slumped shoulders and it's like covering the chest, but also because they're like moving towards other people so much.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:19.280
So I definitely relate to that.
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.440
And I mean, being exhausted, but not realizing it.
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:32.480
But I think when we're feeling emotions even more and more intensely, it's like we're doing way too much out of the heart center.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:41.760
And either we need to like go get a practical need met, or we need to really focus on, you know, head, heart, body.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.800
Like, am I where am I out of balance?
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:52.880
Because a lot of times it's going to be like the heart center is just like way dominating, and the other two are not getting any attention.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:58.559
Do you think about this through being able to understand the why behind the behavior?
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.360
So it's all of this is going on.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:09.119
And then if we strip it all the way down to that, that the two messages, the unconscious message and the heart longing message.
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.360
So it's not okay for you to have your own needs.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:17.599
And then you're like, oh my gosh, I just like the Enneagram seven in me this month.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.960
I'm like, I thought I was over this.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.280
And no, guys, I'm living in the craziness of my my unhealthy seven.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:28.320
But that, that too, like, it's not okay for me to have my own needs.
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.280
Oh my gosh, I've not been paying attention to what I actually need.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.960
Life is happening really fast.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:33.840
It's really full.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.000
So you've got that that could be going on.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.599
And then also that message, like, I want to be wanted and loved.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.159
And I I'm I can't, I'm not feeling that right now.
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:51.679
So are you able to register those messages as you slow things down?
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:58.400
Like, do you go towards those, the why behind the behavior and the work that you do?
00:36:58.639 --> 00:36:59.599
I try.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:11.920
I don't do it always, but I definitely the first one is always okay, I'm irritable or I'm exhausted, or I'm not wanting to be around people.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.840
Like, what's happening here?
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.559
What what's so what are what are my needs?
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:25.280
And then what am I attaching being loved or my worth to that has nothing to do with what's happening right now?
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.360
Like my daughter's been crying all day.
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:32.239
I can't get her, like she just coming and happening over and over and over again.
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:37.199
Why am I making that like it's my fault that she's upset?
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:41.039
And also making it about me because I think I should be able to calm her down.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.880
And if she's still upset, it's my problem.
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:55.840
It's like it's when that kind of thing is happening and I'm not being present with someone that right now, at least I would that's how I would answer.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:01.440
It's not like that's always the case, but I think that's how I would answer that.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:02.159
Yeah.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.039
I think what I've heard from twos is the retreat.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:16.320
And I think that that's a very good indicator that something is off if you guys want to retreat, because that's not typically what you want.
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:20.719
If it's not intentional, if it's not intentional, yeah.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:28.159
I I think all twos need to spend way more time alone than they do.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:30.559
Way more time alone.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.800
But I completely agree with you.
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:43.679
If it's a withdrawal or retreat because they're hurt or feeling rejected, then that definitely is a cue to a partner or a friend to like check in on what's going on.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:55.280
If we look at this a little deeper for a minute and and we say, okay, with withdraw retreat, and not because we we know we need it and we're taking it.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.480
This is with withdraw retreat, and then we look at medicators.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.400
Like, where do you go?
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:05.840
What are you, did you bring a bottle of wine with you?
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:09.599
Did you bring a big bowl of ice cream with you?
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:15.360
Did you um like where what does that retreat look like?
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.719
And what are you bringing to soothe?
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:28.880
I think if I'm retreating, it would probably most likely look like eating while binging shows.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:38.480
Just so I'm still like tuning out a little bit, but I'm still wrapping, get it letting myself get wrapped into a story.
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:47.280
And then it can be like mindless about eating just to like feel nourished, but it's not nourishing.
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:49.519
Comfort is the word, thank you, that I was looking for.
00:39:49.679 --> 00:40:11.519
Yeah, I I think that's what I would say is how I retreat, which is very much different than the Enneagram 7, because our retreat is busier, our retreat is is more, it's more intensity, it's more noise, it's more chaos.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.880
It's and this is unhealthy.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:13.840
So this is not healthy.
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.920
Healthy retreat, choosing to retreat.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.840
I'm gonna go read a book or I'm gonna go do healthy things.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.719
This is yeah, this is not that.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:35.280
Like in the unhealthy side, it's gonna look like like my favorite, and anybody that's listening to podcast knows I want I'm gonna go shopping and I'm gonna buy what?
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:35.920
I don't know.
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.599
I don't need anything, but I'm gonna buy.
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:43.440
I'm gonna like, and I'm gonna look at the sale rock and I'm gonna think I can get seven for instead of two of that.
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.360
And I don't even like the way it fits or food, you know.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:55.519
I mean, it's like um gathering and and it's like filling my calendar to the point that I can't breathe.
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:58.480
It's it really is busy, busy, more, more, more.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:01.840
So it's not typically a retreat.
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:12.239
And if it is an escape like that type for the Enneagram 7, it's probably a medicator of escape.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:18.639
So more wine or more whatever, it's more of something to it's like numb.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:19.599
I want to numb it.
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:20.639
I don't want to feel it.
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.000
I want to have fun.
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.079
Let's put some fun clothes on, let's go have a good time, let's go dance.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:29.920
Like, uh, you know, if you're a guy, you're probably not doing that.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.920
Maybe you're going to the game and you're having some beer.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:34.079
I don't know, but I don't know.
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:35.039
I can't.
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:36.719
Um it's more.
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:37.840
This is whatever it is.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:39.519
This is a whole lot of more.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:41.920
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:49.199
I I think I wonder if social twos and self-pressed twos might answer that differently then.
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:57.519
Cause I would say I see a lot of social twos that like if they they avoiding alone time at all cost.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:09.679
So even if hurt, it might be well, I'm just gonna be busier or like add more to my calendar, more groups to belong to, um, to kind of avoid how I'm feeling.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:13.519
But that would be hard for me to do personally.
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.559
That's not how that's not what I would do.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:28.559
Most of the twos that when I'm thinking through the twos that I work with and know, just in general too, most of them describe what you describe.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:36.159
It's the going away, retreating, it's the binge watching television shows, eating something sweet or crunching on something salty, maybe.
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:41.119
But it it it doesn't usually include more of people.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:47.119
Usually there's a movement away from because it's too much.
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:52.960
Yeah, they're feeling hurt and rejected and don't want to put themselves at risk again.
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:55.599
Yeah, doesn't feel safe.
00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:06.559
Yeah, it's so interesting that the different subtypes if we look at that passion for the two and how it collides, that pride piece, right?
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:14.239
Talk about just explain pride through that Enneagram to Lent.
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:20.480
I want to hear a two talk about it because I as a seven can talk about it, but it's different when we hear it from you as a two.
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.440
So I would describe pride.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:30.880
It's not always necessarily, I think I'm better than you, but I think I'm necessary to you.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:41.599
So I'm gonna have the right thing that you don't even know you need, or I can see the strategy.
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:48.480
I I will be the one to help you fix whatever's happening.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:58.159
So it's like putting myself above others when I think like I'm the one that needs to do everything for them, especially for a sexual too.
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:09.360
But another thing I think is not talked about enough with pride is it's not just an inflation, it's also a deflation.
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:15.679
So it can look like peacocking, but it can also look like shrinking yourself.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:20.000
And either one is not being in humility.
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:31.199
So that has been like really helpful because I think all twos, but especially sexual twos, because we're often told like we're too much, we're intense.
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:46.960
There can be like a constriction or like I have to be less, you know, but that's, you know, just as much of a problem and pride as going the other way.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.360
So I have a girlfriend that just recently recently got married.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:57.760
So if some of you guys might know who this is, but she just recently got married and she's an Enneagram too.
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.559
And so she was like I said, you know, what are you thinking about for a dress?
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:05.360
She's like just something simple, like very basic.
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.079
And I was like, all right, I'm a seven.
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:09.840
I'm like, we're not doing anything basic.
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.440
Although my original wedding dress, you guys was very basic.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.639
I would not wear, I mean, I would pick something very different today.
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:19.039
I was minimizing myself back then.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:20.800
Not today.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:22.000
Not today.
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:25.360
So it's really interesting.
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:38.639
So when we her and I went dress shopping and she was picking these very plain dresses out and I come into the fitting room with it all bedazzled.
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:40.639
It's all kinds of stuff going on.
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:40.960
Okay.
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:43.760
Train oh girl, all of it.
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:45.119
I was like, yes we are.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:46.719
And she's like, I am not going to like it.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.320
I'm like, you're going to try it on.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:48.800
Okay.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.320
Because this is what we do.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:54.719
Um we're older and we are going to, you know, we're going to be princess.
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:55.840
You're going to be a princess.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.599
I say we, we're going to be princesses.
00:45:57.679 --> 00:45:58.559
I was not, guys.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:45:59.280
It was her.
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.960
So she puts these dresses on this one.
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:03.840
It was gorgeous.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.400
I cried.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:07.199
Then she puts this other one on and I was like, oh, that's her.
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:16.480
And it it was, it was beautiful and elegant, but it had, it had design on it and it had sparkle to it.
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:25.280
And it was everything she never would have picked because she would think that people would think that she's too much for picking that.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:25.760
Okay.
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:26.960
She's an Enneagram too.
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:28.320
So as you're describing that.
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:40.159
So then then we are we go to the venue and we're looking through the venue and she's like, I just need a couple flower, you know, like will you do my bouquet and you know we'll just some bases.
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:40.880
And I was like, okay.
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:47.039
And I'm looking around at this space and I'm like, well you need to make this look like a wedding venue like was so I come in there.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:53.280
I mean I I I told Emily that this month has been crazy because I took on too much.
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:57.360
I took on all of her florals for her wedding like of course you did.
00:46:57.599 --> 00:46:58.079
Yes.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:01.519
It's I know better and I can't stop myself.
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:08.960
Well but that's also comes from a beautiful place of wanting your best friend to have the party that she deserves.
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:10.320
So I hear you.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:14.719
You know I wanted it to be so we just did all these things.
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.320
It was gorgeous all the flowers beautiful all the signage everything was beautiful.
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:31.199
And so at the end of the night she we're getting her changed into her outfit that she's going to leave in she she hugs me and she just says like thank you thank you for making me go out of my comfort zone.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:50.239
Thank you for making me pick the dress thank you for telling me it was okay to get the flowers it's okay it's okay to do all the extras you know and and I can see that as you're talking about the minimizing of the two that it's it is that it's in that pride space.
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:56.400
And I yeah it's really kind of like I didn't some of it didn't make sense.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:58.719
Like why why are we going small on this?
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:00.000
Like this is an important thing.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:01.039
What are you doing?
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.679
And now I can understand it a little bit better.
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:10.960
Well she's lucky she had you to help her pinpoint what was and wasn't prideful.
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:25.360
But the a lot of times if if twos have been doing work for a long time they'll start getting this like fear of pride that can also be very limiting because it's just it's always there.
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:58.719
I think we should all always anyone that comes and tells me I'm never prideful I'm like ooh run away but the fear of like are people going to think I'm being prideful even if I'm just like existing is a really hard thing or if I'm truly giving altruistically like I know that I'm giving not to get it can be really hard if people are like assuming that that's happening because it isn't always happening.
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:15.440
There it can happen a lot of times that is what's happening but it's very frustrating when people are like oh beer too like don't give me anything like are you giving to get it's like that assumption is like it's hurtful.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.239
It is hurtful and annoying.
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:19.039
Yeah.
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.559
Well and it's it's not like you said it's not always true.
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:23.440
Is it there?
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:24.559
Sometimes it's there.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.519
Sometimes it's not even you don't even realize it's there.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:35.840
I that's what I would say with most who's you it's so subconscious you don't even realize that maybe it is a pattern that's happening.
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.280
And it's not from a malicious place most of the time.
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:44.320
Like it's not it's you're not purpose it's not purposeful manipulation.
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:45.599
It's that's not it.
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:48.480
Some of this is this is how I learned to dance.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:51.440
Like if I do the dishes it makes you happy mom.
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.719
If I do this it makes this person feel this way.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:07.840
It's this give to get I you know and I learned a lot of this my mom is an Enneagram too and so when when I think about some of these things growing up like I learned to cook and cooking made people happy.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:13.440
And so it became a crutch that I had to overcome in my adult in my adulthood.
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:21.519
So now I only cook when I want to sorry family but it was like that's what I was like I had a boyfriend.
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:37.519
I always had a boyfriend but so then I would make their their mom an apple pie or I would make cookies or it was like if I give you this this makes you feel this and then that makes me feel happy or safe or wanted.
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:47.760
Happy that you're happy yeah and then maybe you'll like me and you'll keep liking me if if I do those things.
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:55.519
You know all of us have stories our patterns they come from the meaning that we've made throughout our lives.
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:06.719
And so it's it's not I think that that's why this is such careful beautiful work when it comes to the Enneagram and understanding patterns of behavior, motivation.
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:14.079
It, you know, these patterns worked we needed them and maybe today we don't need them like we needed them before.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.559
Maybe they're not working like they used to work.
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:20.880
We don't want to take every pattern apart.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.280
That's definitely not the work that I want to do.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:35.360
I want to look at patterns and I want to see what is working and what isn't and get curious about those patterns that maybe are keeping you from being held back to to be able to move towards growth in your life in some area.
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:47.280
But I I you know what I think is so interesting like how I thought years ago when I first started teaching Enneagram to what I think today it was about like growth, growth growth for me.
00:51:47.440 --> 00:52:07.679
Now it's not it's about wholeness it's seeing the whole person it's seeing all of these aspects it's seeing the the healthy and the average and the unhealthy and understanding why we get there how we get there what's happening inside of us when we're there and then my favorite thing right when we bring unconscious to the conscious we have choice.
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:52.559
We have choice so at the at the end of the day that's the work is like we're just trying to bring more awareness so that you have more choice which gives more freedom which I know you love and also healthy choos you know that's the that's the holy idea is holy freedom and holy will and twos that are on the growth path thrive and like love freedom when they don't have to do things for someone to be loved when they give other people freedom for their preferences and know that their freedom for preferences is allowed.
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.519
I I know that shows up a little differently for you.
00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:05.119
Would you say it's more options or what would what's freedom what freedom do you get when you pause and realize you have choice?
00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:44.000
I I think I'll I think I'll go a little deeper here in this in where I'm where I'm at today probably I think connection even though sevens don't focus on it because they just assume they're not going to get it when when the healing happens and we understand that connection is tea connection is key to healing and growth that when we feel safe there's a freedom to be there's a freedom to live there's a I can I can sit and read my book and I don't feel like you think I'm boring or that I should be entertaining you or I should be something other than whatever.
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:55.440
So I can just be like the the being piece I think and and the freedom to be is such a huge part for me as an Enneagram seven and that is that is the freedom I seek.
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:09.920
It's not freedom to have more choices it's freedom to be fully myself and to be loved and accepted and valued and wanted and uh I did not feel those feelings young at all.
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:23.679
And even it took years and years and years and years and a lot of therapy in marriage to even let myself allow somebody to love me to a place that I could let myself be free.
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:27.840
And so today it feels much different than it did.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:35.119
And I think what I sought for freedom early on isn't is not what I have found freedom in at this age.
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:42.800
You know I think huge huge part is my faith in Jesus like my relationship with God.
00:54:43.119 --> 00:55:05.519
Um the the relationship my husband and I have worked on so much and it has not been roses and sunshine all the way there's been really really difficult seasons and we've chosen each other and chosen to push through and so I I say that on purpose because it I don't want anybody to think oh it's just easy.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:07.760
It's almost 28 years.
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:12.159
Anybody that's been married for any length of time, you're going to go through things.
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:26.239
But choosing to let both of us choosing to let each other love with walls down was probably one of the hardest things we've had to learn how to do and then from that there's such a freedom.
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:33.280
It's hard to find people you can feel like that with but you've got to be able to do it with yourself first.
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:55.440
Absolutely absolutely so as we close our conversation today what is a simple practice and I don't I did not ask you for this I'm kind of asking you on the fly what's a simple practice that you think um could be specific for the Enneagram too or you could go broad and just say actually I think this would be good for everybody.
00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:08.079
What's one simple practice that could help us to get into our bodies into into the like the essence instead of the patterns that's a great question.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:29.280
I mean I have a few things that pop up so I'd be curious what comes up for you but first thing that came to mind was therapy meditation exercise for as far as being in the body yeah that's something I have to work on daily because I can forget I have a body which is absurd.
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:48.639
So just really being intentional and trusting that you know our bodies really do show us what's going on underneath and what we need to be attending to like the cliche you know the body keeps the score it really is so accurate.
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:51.360
So that's what I would say.
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:53.119
But how would you answer that?
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:56.880
I you know like emotions need motion.
00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:01.360
So I am a huge motion.
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:03.360
So I'm a huge fan of movement.
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:29.440
Um and whether that be just bouncing on the the heels of your feet um whether that be big circles with your arms to try to move some of the energy some of the the emotion through you um panic party two minute you know Taylor Swift shake it off two minute panic party just just letting yourself nothing better than a Taylor Swift song to help get our emotions up just like yeah just shake it off.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:58:07.599
I think movement is is such a big part for it and so movement and stillness and so I think it's the movement piece that's important and I also think the meditation stillness breath work is important uh in the being with being with self like so that meditation where you you can sit on the floor and you go from like your toes to your head and you just like have things feel and just kind of being with when we're talking about meditation you can absolutely uh like use scripture to help you do this work.
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:10.079
You can use prayer to help you do this work.
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:24.079
You know there isn't there isn't a a right or wrong when it comes to anything like that, but just kind of being with um centering being with deep breath work I just I there's just something to it.
00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:32.880
Yeah you can't do this work if you're not engaging spiritually so I completely agree and really like what you just said.
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:44.079
Okay if people want to find you and they want to ask you questions where can they find you they can find me on Instagram my handle is I am Emily Zeller.
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:52.320
I have a Facebook with the same uh same handle and then my website is emilyzeller.com.
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:56.159
Do you coach as well as do therapy?
00:58:56.400 --> 00:58:58.480
Yeah so I have two separate businesses.
00:58:58.639 --> 00:59:12.559
I have a therapy practice so I can see clients living in Pennsylvania Ohio and Illinois and then I have an Enneagram consulting business where I do more Enneagram things but then can see people anywhere.
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.440
So that's what the EmilyZeller.com is.
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:16.320
I love that.
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:39.360
So if you guys are interested in connecting with Emily go check out her social media stuff but also go check out her website ask your questions find out inquire about the work that she does with couples with moms and postpartum and just Enneagram in general um she's a wealth of knowledge so I'd love for you guys to to follow her and and I hope that you'll come back on we can have more conversations in the future.
00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:41.760
Of course I would love that thank you so much.
00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:44.719
You made this very easy so I really appreciate it.
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:58.400
Okay until next time uh we will see you then thank you for joining us today join us next time as we continue our conversation about the Ennegram and what it means for your relationships.
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:03.519
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01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:06.480
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