#55 - Ballet Without Borders and the Power of Belonging

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Hello and welcome back to another episode of Engaging Conversations.
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I'm your host, Leon Goltsman, and at Ecolibrium Headquarters, we believe that real change begins with real conversations, and through this program, we share the stories of remarkable people who are making a genuine difference in the lives of others, reminding us that meaningful change often starts with one person choosing to act.
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Now, today I'd like to begin with a simple question.
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What if the greatest barrier facing a child isn't talent but opportunity?
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It's something many of us really stop to think about.
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We encourage children to dream big, work hard, and believe in themselves.
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And what if they never get to discover what they're really capable of in the first place?
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My special guest today is Katia Kullengren, founder of Ballet Without Borders, an extraordinary organisation bringing ballet and the performing arts to children who might otherwise never experience them.
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But today's conversation isn't really about ballet.
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It's about belonging.
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It's about confidence.
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It's about breaking cycles of disadvantage.
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And it's about challenging the assumption that access to the arts is a luxury rather than an opportunity every child deserves.
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During our conversation, Katia shares her own journey from arriving in Australia as a young immigrant to building a national organisation that's opening doors for hundreds of children across the country.
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What stuck with me most wasn't simply what Ballet Without Borders does, it's why it exists.
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Because sometimes all it takes is one opportunity, one person who believes in you, and one unexpected experience to completely change the direction of a life.
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Whether you're a parent, educator, business owner, community leader, or just simply someone who believes in creating a better future for the next generation, I think the conversation will change the way you think about opportunity, inclusion, and the role each of us can play in creating stronger, more connected communities.
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It is my privilege to welcome Katia Kullengren to engaging conversations.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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My name is Katia.
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I am 41.
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I live in Surry Hills.
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I have a child, a husband, and a wonderful cat.
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I have a full-time job and I have this wonderful charity I founded called Ball Without Borders.
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And I am also in the middle of sitting my ballet exam for the Royal Academy of Dance
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That's very impressive.
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Now, what brings us here today, of course, is the exciting story and the journey that you've come across.
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Now, I've always believed that talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity rarely is.
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Sometimes the biggest difference between two people isn't the ability that they can produce or contribute.
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It's simply whether someone opened the door for them.
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Now, Katia, when you think back to your childhood, do you believe Ballet Without Borders was really born when you founded the organisation, or was it born years earlier when a young girl simply wanted the opportunity to dance?
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That's a really good question.
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I think a lot of people think that Ballet Without Borders uh was founded because there was an opportunity to do so.
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But actually it was founded because there wasn't an opportunity for me to participate in ballet.
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It's such a big part of Eastern European culture.
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And when we migrated to Australia and, you know, were really living below the poverty line, there was absolutely no way that you could do anything as a child outside of what the Australian school curriculum gives you.
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And ballet just isn't one of those things.
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Aaron Powell Well, I'm hearing the financial struggles usually are a barrier to these sort of things.
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It is.
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It very much is.
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Um, you know, ballet is just the medium that I love, but Australia is very much a sports culture.
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And most people will find that in the public school sector, sports is readily available, but anything outside of that is not.
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And if you have one child, but if you have multiple, we're talking hundreds of dollars every term for ballet lessons.
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And I I don't know what kind of parent can afford to pay that.
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The people living beyond their means.
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Now, communities aren't just built by buildings or infrastructure.
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We've seen that.
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We've seen all the different communities around the world.
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They're built only when people choose to create opportunities for people they've never met.
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What made you decide that instead of accepting the way things are, you were going to become the person who challenged them?
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I have this really early memory of when my mother and I had been in Australia for a couple of years, so you know, we didn't speak English very well, and we were really desperately trying to go back home to visit our family.
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And my mum bumped into one of the neighbors uh in the laundromat and got talking, and this woman actually lent us $10,000 with no expectation of paying it back so that we could go and see our family.
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And I just had this distinct memory of like, wow, I wish I could be that person eventually so that I could give that kind of chance back.
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And it just happened that it was through ballet because as I got older and started doing ballet myself as an adult, I realized how expensive it was and realized, ah, that is why I didn't do it as a child.
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Well, Katia, you're what you're doing, we're covering a lot more and deeper than that.
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Because people tend to think that the only way to help others is with money.
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But it's not just money.
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Obviously, it's people who are uh doing what they can with the ability that they have, and everyone's different.
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We often talk about inclusion as though it's inviting people into our world.
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Real inclusion is creating a world where everyone already feels like they belong.
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When children walk into your program for the very first time, what changes first their ability to dance or the way that they see themselves?
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I think it's definitely the way that they see themselves.
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So when they step into the classroom, you know, I don't think they even think about dancing.
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I think all of a sudden they think, oh wow, I'd never heard of ballet before.
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I had never, I don't even know what it is.
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You know, it's they might have this misconception, they think pink, they think, you know, tiaras and tutus, and um all of a sudden they're sort of, I think their world has expanded and they hear classical music for the first time.
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They realize, oh God, this is so physically challenging.
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Um, and especially that goes for the boys, because they are often the ones who might be a little bit, you know, bristly about having to do ballet, but we actually find that the boys are the ones that have the best time.
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Let me tell you a story of the first time that we kicked off Ballet Without Borders.
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Uh, we did it as a workshop, and it was with the Police Citizens Youth Club for families who are really disadvantaged, had nothing, nowhere to put their children during the school holidays.
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And we had this boy who the mother said, Look, I've got two other kids, he's got all sorts of, you know, mental sort of um, you know, delays, etc.
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I don't know what to do with him.
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I just need to put him somewhere.
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And so he came to our ballet class, and seven years later, he's still dancing.
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Uh, he said to me, just recently, I interviewed him and he said, It is my home, it's where I have found my community, it's the place where all my friends are.
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You know, he really struggled at school, he really struggled with the way that teaching is done at a you know at a regular public school, and ballet was a way for him to connect.
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But also there's that in some of the sports, it's very competitive.
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You know, people are one team against another, or you've got a group, and and you you find that there's that kind of kind of tribal feel.
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But with ballet, you're actually uniting together.
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You and you're not competing, you're improving yourself.
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Yes.
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Their confidence, what I'm hearing and understanding, but also that ability, that that that focus that we find missing these days.
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Ballet definitely is a wonderful way for a child to learn discipline and to try and be the better version of themselves.
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I think that is something that's really critical that ballet gives that other things don't give, like sports.
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You know, there's not that sort of that competition.
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I've seen a lot of ballet students, they really come together, they really connect as a community, they support each other.
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But I've read a few studies that actually also show that students who do ballet are actually also academically incredibly um bright because they learn resilience, they learn how to concentrate, to take direction.
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Ballet is much more than a physical thing.
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Ballet is also very mental.
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And a lot of them go on to be very successful regardless of whether ballet is their career or not.
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And a lot of people forget to um to realize that it gets kids off the screen.
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Yes.
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Kids on the screen, yeah.
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Having a child myself, that is something that um I yeah, we all struggle with these days.
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And um But it's not just children, uh adults as well.
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And and and this is the thing.
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When young, let's just say young people used to a particular way of living, as they get older, it becomes even more strengthened their habits.
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Yes.
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And it's so important to be able to set the tone early.
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100%.
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I think that's one of the wonderful things about ballet is that these kids, you know, not everyone can be successful.
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Most of these kids that I know who I dance with, they are successful.
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They're gonna be successful because they already have that ability to focus, to concentrate.
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They are working towards a goal for themselves to be the best version that they can be.
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So I think it is really important to find that.
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And I mean, let's face it, not every kid likes sport.
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Yeah.
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There's got to be another outlet.
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But this isn't just about the kids.
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I know we're talking about helping young children.
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That this isn't in essence helping the parents.
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What we're kind of what I'm understanding is it's about breaking the cycle.
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Do you think ballet without borders is really about teaching ballet, or is it about changing what children believe is possible for themselves?
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Ballet without borders is definitely not just about teaching ballet.
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Um and our ethos is all about opportunities.
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Because every child should have an opportunity to try something new and to do something different.
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And often if they're not shown that opportunity, then they will forever stay in that societal barrier that they have.
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So we actually have a great saying where if somebody comes and does ballet with us and they might hate it, we don't care.
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They might then decide that their child should do ballet.
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They might fall in love with classical music, they might just fall in love with the art form.
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I don't know if you've been to the ballet recently, but there's not a lot of diversity out there.
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Yeah, and well, this is a this is a shame because we're obviously a multicultural society.
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We're trying to integrate all the different cultures, but also share the amazing cultures that other people might want to experience for themselves.
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I'm always excited when I meet people who are inspiring and people who do things that are unique.
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Our audience aren't going to be seeing too many people out there promoting ballet for their children.
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I mean, so what you're doing is exceptionally rare, as far as I'm concerned.
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And this is the beautiful thing I love about our program, engaging conversations, is that people rarely remember statistics.
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You know, we we we find that people don't really, they they always remember stories and how they felt when they heard those stories.
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And I hope that after today's conversation that people will take something away.
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And we'll get to that a bit later.
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But is there a child you've met through Ballet Without Borders whose story will stay with you to this day?
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I've met a lot of children uh through Ballet Without Borders whose stories stay with me.
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I mean, the child I mentioned earlier who continues to dance, and there's also uh been two wonderful girls who fell on hard times and we sponsored them to continue their education, and they ended up winning some competitions at the Youth American Grand Prix.
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But probably the children that I remember the most, and it's not them in terms of their names or what school they came from, it's these reflection cards that we collect and some of the beautiful things that they say about ballet, how it's changed their perception of themselves, how they realize that they could do something they never thought they could.
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And it's those things that are really special.
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It sounds like it's special because in today's day and age, in today's society, and and and it's not just today, it's been like that for as long as I know that I existed, I'm sure others as well, is that success is often measured by what we achieve, but contribution is measured by what we leave behind for others.
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You've built a successful executive career, and this isn't something that you you have to do.
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This is your choice to be advocating for the people out there.
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Uh and yet you devote yourself so much of your personal time to this cause.
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What does success mean to you today compared to say what you think it meant might have meant 20 years ago?
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Success for me has definitely shifted over the last five years.
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Um and I think stepping into leadership positions, you know, really executive roles in the last few years has really shaped that for me.
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I've realized that being a good leader means leading from a place of love and from a place of serving the community that you belong.
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Whereas I think in the past, for me, leadership meant, you know, climbing the ladder and having financial freedom, which I think is really important.
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I don't want to downplay that because, you know, if you grow up poor, you definitely want to work and have financial freedom.
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But it's more than that now.
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Like I see that as a leader, I have an opportunity to shape how people see themselves, how people see uh the world around them, whether it's positive or negative.
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And actually being a leader is it comes with great responsibility.
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You know, that saying with great power comes great responsibility.
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It's really true.
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And I think a lot of people think of leadership as calling the shots and doing what you want to do.
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But actually, leadership really is about people and it's about love and kindness and support.
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Well, this is exactly what you're doing, but also the way I see it is setting a good example and and leading from the front.
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You know, sometimes you have so many people telling everyone what they should do.
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And this is the one thing I'm actually really proud of our program that we never do that.
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We don't tell people what to do.
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Uh, but I do believe that it's important to just be the best that you can be.
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And that's why sports is fantastic.
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Let's face it, sports does give a lot of discipline and all those things that that ballet does as well.
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But there is an element of getting more in touch with a different part of yourselves, which which you may not necessarily find in a traditional sport.
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And it is, it is really interesting how we never question investing in sport, as you said.
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And yet so many people still see arts as a luxury rather than a necessity.
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What do you believe access to the arts is every bit as important as access to sport?
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I think that investment in the arts is so important because it shouldn't be about sport or art.
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It shouldn't be one or the other.
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They're both very important.
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But I think giving children an opportunity to be creative and to get in touch with themselves in a different way.
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And it's actually something that we really found the boys at the primary schools that we teach at, they the teachers often give the feedback that it was the boys that all of a sudden discovered this new way of movement, this new way of thinking.
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And there's been a lot of studies recently that show that sometimes, you know, boys are falling through the crack if sports is the only thing that they're offered.
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You know, some of them, of course, love it, but there's this opportunity now for them to be different, to think differently.
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Um, and that could be really, really powerful.
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So creativity is part of humans.
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You know, we we dance before we walk, as they say.
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So the biggest lesson I've learned whilst building Ballet Without Borders has been about being curious and listening.
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I think it's very easy, especially when you're a founder, that you have an answer, that you think people want a certain thing, but actually taking the time to really understand what do the communities want, what do the schools want, what do the children want?
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Um, what does my board want?
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What do the founders want?
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Um, actually sitting there with that and and really hearing it, even if it doesn't necessarily align with your views, and being agile so that everyone gets the benefit.
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Well, it seems like you've learned a lot more than just that.
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You've also learned about resilience, about fundraising, partnerships, volunteers, and believing in a vision long before others do.
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And we've seen that moments don't always begin because someone has all the answers.
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Because I don't know who me who has all the answers, although I do know a few people who tell you they do.
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But um, but we know that the answers begin because someone refuses to accept that something can't be changed.
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But when you imagine Australia 20 years from now, what do you hope has changed because ballet without borders existed?
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In 20 years from now, what I hope Ballet Without Borders achieves, other than the diversification of patrons of the arts and ballet in particular, is to be able to bring communities together and work with more disadvantaged children with First Nations.
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We're also expanding into the neurodiverse sector because you know it really should be for everybody.
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So the idea is that this becomes a household name and everyone gets a chance.
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And it would be wonderful to see that ballet participation isn't just reserved for those that are fully able, but that it can also go into the disability sector, into the neurodivergence sector, because you know, more and more of that is being uncovered and seen as actually just part of everyday life.
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So these people should also have that opportunity, just like anyone else.
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Yeah.
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And we've seen that.
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We've seen a lot of councils with their disability inclusion action plan.
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Um, you know, that that that's part of the that's part of the agenda.
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And yet it's organizations like yours continue to build bridges as well.
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So one of the things that gives me so much pride, one of the many things that gives me pride is that every guest who comes on our program leaves behind one idea that has the power to inspire someone else to take action.
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Now, if someone listening today could create just one opportunity for another person this week, what would you encourage them to do?
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I would encourage people to be generous with their time, with their money, if that is something that they're in a position to do.
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And I would encourage them to be curious and look outside the box.
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And the other thing I would say is volunteering is really fantastic.
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You know, it gets you out into the community, you feel like you have a sense of purpose, you can meet new people, and you don't realize, but that two hours of volunteering a week can really change someone's life or help an organization go that much further.
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And it's really good for mental health.
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And um, and Katia, you really are fantastic.
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Thank you so much for taking the time.
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Now, before I let you go, now I will have some things in the show notes, but if people are listening to this right now, they want to get in contact with you, how do they do that?
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If someone wants to contact me, they can actually call my mobile.
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It doesn't matter who you are or what walk of life you're from, I'd love to hear from you.
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Or you can email me at infoballetwithoutborders.org.
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We would love to hear from you.
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As I mentioned, I'll have all those details in the show notes.
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And Katia, thank you so much for coming on the programme.
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Always lovely to catch up with you, and I look forward to seeing all the great work continue.
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It was an honor, Leon.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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What a wonderful reminder that changing a life doesn't always begin with something extraordinary.
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Sometimes it begins with something as simple as an opportunity.
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One door opened, one person who believes in you, one experience that helps you discover something you never knew was possible.
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However, what stayed with me most from this conversation with Katia, Ballet Without Borders isn't simply teaching children to dance.
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It's helping children discover confidence, belonging, resilience, and possibility.
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And perhaps that is the biggest lesson for all of us.
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Every day, each of us has the opportunity to create opportunities for others.
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Sometimes it's through our time, sometimes it's through our encouragement, sometimes it's through sharing our knowledge, opening a door, or simply believing in someone before they believe in themselves.
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And if today's conversation resonated with you, I'd encourage you to learn more about Ballet Without Borders.
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Support their work if you're able to, and share this episode with someone who believes every child deserves the opportunity to reach their full potential.
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You'll find all the details in the show notes.
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And one of the reasons I love producing engaging conversations is that every episode reminds us that there are extraordinary stories behind subjects we often overlook.
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Whether it's ballet, dry cleaning, IVF, firefighters, disability business, or the many other conversations we'll be exploring in the months ahead, these aren't simply topics, they're opportunities to challenge assumptions, broaden our perspectives, and better understand the people and experiences that shape our communities.
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Because when we take the time to genuinely listen, we often discover that we do have far more in common than we have ever imagined.
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A heartfelt thank you to you, Katia, for sharing not only your remarkable journey, but also a vision creating opportunity for children and helping more people to build a more inclusive future.
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If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please follow the podcast, leave a review, and share it with your family, friends, and colleagues.
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Every share helps another conversation reach someone who may have needed to hear it.
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And with that, I'm Leon Goltsman.
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Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and never underestimate the difference one opportunity can make.