WEBVTT
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Aaron Earls from uh Lifeway has joined us today on the podcast.
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We're glad you're here.
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So so you and I are are have South Carolina in common.
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We do, we do.
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You grew up in Blacksburg?
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Blacksburg, South Carolina, yes, sir.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Small, small town.
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I actually know where that is.
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Which is unusual for somebody in Tennessee to live.
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Well, I pastored in Edgefield and I was strong uh Thurman's pastor when I was a and then from there we moved to Malden, so the Greenville area.
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So all of those areas.
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That's right.
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I was in South Carolina long enough to think the upstate was better than the low country.
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I grew up I grew up in the upstate.
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I I don't want to say that because my wife grew up in the low country, so I don't want to sort that up.
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You guys mentioned marriage there, but those from maybe in South Carolina will know that that uh that is a real kind of uh rivalry between the upstate and and and the low country, as they call it.
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Okay.
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Uh we have read lots of numbers and lots of statistics about what's going on.
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So how does a nice guy like you end up in stats of all things?
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Yeah, I if you'd have told me growing up I was gonna be doing anything with math, I would have laughed in your face.
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There's no way I'm not a math person.
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I hated math in school, just wanted to always wanted to spend my time in literature and English and reading and writing of those things.
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I love that.
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And so my undergrad that I graduated with North Greenville uh is in journalism, and so I wanted to write.
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Um obviously, you know, the newspapers aren't exactly blowing up the seams right now, hiring a lot of people.
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So, you know, how how do you apply journalism to you know a career?
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And I knew God had really called me to serve the church with those writing gifts.
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And so I graduated with a master divinity from uh Southeastern Theological Seminary in Wake Forest and and felt God call us the life way and started serving it life way and just kind of fell into writing more and more about research.
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And it was you also got a degree in apologetics, right?
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The focus of the MDiv was apologetics.
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It was, yeah.
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Which is also about making the faith make sense.
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Yeah.
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Communicate bridging what we know on one side to those who do not understand on the other side.
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It I it's interesting you say that again, like I so it comes out that way that that my degrees and my passions are to help people understand things they may not understand to start with, and to serve as a bridge.
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And so I see that with with the research is that it's an avenue to connect people with something that may be abstract, maybe that that's difficult to understand, difficult to put into to practice what that means.
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But then you can take those numbers and say, okay, what does this mean?
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How is it how can I apply this to my life?
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You're the you're the walking example of what we preach real hard around here at the Engaged Church Network, in that all of us have gifts, all of us have passions, yeah, and we serve the church, we serve the Lord best when we find a way to connect that passion to the service of God's kingdom.
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Yeah, that's and and your ability to one, understand what the stats are saying, because we remember uh Mark Twain's quote about stats.
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Okay.
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To understand what they're doing, and then to help a uh a leader of a local congregation understand what those mean, what what those stats mean and how they can be applied to bring about real change, yeah, is is a gift.
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And it it certainly is to me because I read of all that stuff, and most of the time I'm going, huh?
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Now, I I definitely do have to to go back sometimes and and ask their statisticians and I and the guys that do the research, help me understand this and let's let's break this down a little bit.
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Because they have their own language, they talk in you know, math nerd, and they have that conversation.
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And so, but so but you know, helping them to help me understand it and then getting there from again, okay, how can I then help transfer structures to the guys on the street so they can take and apply it?
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That'd be good if it's just numbers sitting out there.
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Yeah, what what's been the most surprising thing you've learned?
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Um I think just how much research can help and benefit.
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Um, in in in a lot of ways, we can have different pictures or ideas of what the church is or what culture is or what pastors are doing.
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And and those may be good and helpful and they may be right in our context, but they not may not give us a full picture of it.
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I in general, I'm a positive person.
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Like I generally kind of think people are doing the right thing and good stuff, and I want to assume the best of somebody else.
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And so I may go into situations and think, okay, everybody's doing this.
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Growing up, I thought everybody followed Jesus.
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That's just what you did.
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Right.
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Well, yeah, I grew up in the same kind of neighborhood.
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But then you go out and look at them, well, that's not always the case.
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And and I think research can help serve that.
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And I discovered that for me, like looking at this research, and and you may think everybody really knows Jesus and they want to follow him.
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And some people do, but some people don't.
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And I think research gives us a clearer picture of the reality of what's happening, the reality of what's happening in God's creation in the in the world, the be the how he's working and what he's doing.
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You research gives us that fuller picture.
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It doesn't negate what you and I see in our church or in our context, but it does give us a fuller picture of what all is happening around us.
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And so it's been you know encouraging and challenging for me to kind of see both both sides of that.
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I think sometimes research gives us a better picture.
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We may come into it thinking, oh, things are better.
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Or sometimes it may give us you know a sobering look at it.
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Oh, this is I thought it was way better than this, but it's not giving us that.
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Aaron, for our listeners, explain to us exactly what a writer at the research division of LifeWay, Lifeway Research, does.
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You're not the math guy.
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No, absolutely not.
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I'm I'm definitely not the math person, and our math people would not want me to claim I'm the math person at all.
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Um but I I I see my role a bit like a translator or a bridge builder.
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Um, you know, just to be able to take the information that's over there, this this raw and the numbers and you know, and kind of seem intimidating for a lot of people.
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And it is for me, kind of when I first look at it, you know, it they send me a report and it's got all this stuff on there, and it's it's a lot um to kind of take in.
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But I I you know, I see my job, my role as to take all of that information and then kind of translate it to what does the pastor need to know about this?
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And that that's really my my lens when I go to write an article or you know, that what is a church that need to take away from this that can help empower and encourage them in their ministry, or that can inform them about their ministry.
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Maybe sometimes it may be bad news, but taking that information so that it can go to them and they can see how can we apply this?
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What does this mean for us?
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And so, you know, a lot of times people think about numbers and they they their heads get squirrely, and again, I understand that.
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Um so I so I view my my position, my role there is just to encourage them, but it's not always the case, and to and to be that bridge over to here's the numbers, but here's how that what that means for your ministry in your life in your context.
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Okay.
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Now, for the poor little pastor who just heard that, who said, Listen, I've already had to learn Greek, Hebrew.
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Now you're telling me that you're gonna do numbers too.
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Now you're telling me I gotta do math.
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Okay.
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Why would it be important for a pastor of a local church, you know, four-way stop Baptist Church, to understand these kind of stats?
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Yeah.
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I mean, that's the church I grew up in.
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So you know my my my background is uh, you know, we were triple digits on a great Sunday on a dead end road in South Carolina.
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You know, I I I didn't grow up in a big church that had lots of staff.
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We had one pastor, and it's for a while there I served as like a volunteer youth pastor there.
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So I understand kind of that context and those things.
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Uh I would just say I don't, you don't necessarily have to know the numbers.
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Hopefully I'm doing my job and you don't have to translate that for hopefully I'm translating it for you to help you understand those things.
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But I think what I would want to tell them, what I want them to understand is this gives you a clearer picture of the things that are happening.
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You see lots of things happening in your church and you read the news.
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We all know, like uh, those don't give you the full picture.
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The news is coming from their own perspective, and even your context is limited.
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You see what happens in your town, in your church, in your community, but you don't even see what happens to the town over or the state over across the country.
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And so hopefully what this research can do is give you a fuller picture of this is the context of the church as a whole in our country.
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You can look at regions or different areas or different church sizes.
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You know, when we we do our research, we break it down by church size.
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And so maybe it may not benefit you to see what a pastor of a 500 church is doing.
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But part of the breakout is is it different for churches under 50?
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And so you can look at that part of the research and say, okay, well, what's happening for small churches or normal sized churches?
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What's happening in those kinds of children?
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One size does not fit all.
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Right.
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And so the good thing about a research is we'll go and take those significant differences and say, it's this case in a large church, but in a one pastor 49-member church, this is what's happening in their context.
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And so we're trying to give a full picture of that so that those pastors in those church can see this is what's happening everywhere, and hopefully they can see, I'm not alone in this.
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It can give them you, maybe they're experiencing some some some troubles and some struggles, and they're really struggling.
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Yeah.
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We're really struggling in this area.
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And and, you know, the enemy can lie to them and say, Man, you're all alone in this, you're a failure.
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You're the only one that can't do this.
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You can't, yeah, you can't get this right.
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And hopefully the research in that way can help them to say, I'm not alone in this.
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You know, obviously God is walking with me in my identities in Christ, not in not in ministry success.
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But I'm not the only pastor struggling with this.
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I'm not the only church that's going through this issue.
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This is happening to lots of people in lots of areas, and but there are ways I can improve in this.
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And so hopefully that the research can encourage them in that way, but also then give them the equipment and the direction to move forward and grow in that.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Now, you know what you've done.
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You have given the local pastor a hammer.
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Okay.
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And once you get a hammer, everything's an ale, everything looks like an ale.
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Okay.
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So I get on the the library research website and I, oh, this is cool, this is cool, all that stuff.
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And now I'm running my church, my research.
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Yeah.
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Probably not the best way.
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Absolutely not.
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If you look at at the early church, how it was found that, you know, statistically, they were a tiny, tiny segment in a tiny part of the backwater of the Roman Empire.
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That's not going to do anything.
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But you know what, what did they say?
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These are the men that come in, they've turned the world upside down because they're commitment to Christ.
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Statistics should not ever be used to downplay or diminish the work of the Holy Spirit.
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God is working and moving in things.
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And statistics may or may not pick those things up to start off with.
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And so the church should not ever say, Well, we can't do this, or we can't do what God's called us to do because the stats say we shouldn't do it that way.
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You're not running a business, you're not running an organization based on stockholder portfolio returns.
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You're running, you're you're shepherding the church of Christ.
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And so you're you're not answering to what the stats say.
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You're answering.
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What's God called you to do in the in that local congregation?
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Now, hopefully the research can inform you of this is the context we're in.
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And maybe you decide, man, I really feel like God is leading us to do something that the statistics don't back up.
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That's right.
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Then follow Jesus.
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Don't follow the numbers.
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But maybe the numbers are saying, hey, this is more likely to reach men, or this is more likely to help you reach the next generation.
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Have we tried it that way?
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You know, maybe the statistics bump you out of a rut of ministry, but you don't want to, you don't want the statistics to stop you from doing what God's called you to do.
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And I that would be a horrible danger.
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And I think we've seen probably some of the outcomes of those dangers of people trying to run it like a lot of things.
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One of the things that states do is it allows you to learn from the the trial and error of others.
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Yeah.
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You know, if if we get a stat that says 30% do this, then we know that there's been a lot of 70% out there.
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And maybe you don't have to learn what we call experiential learning, where truth just beats you in the head until you get it.
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Right.
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Uh hopefully the numbers let you skip past that, not get beaten the head with it.
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That that's the hope.
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But again, man, if God calls you to do something, don't let the numbers stop you from doing what God called you to do.
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Absolutely.
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Don't use any uh stats for an excuse for disobedience.
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Right, yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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That that's a great word.
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The stats should not be used as an excuse for the disobedience of a pastor, the church girl, or anybody.
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You should be following the the Holy Spirit working in your life, regardless of what numbers may or may not say.
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What the stats are telling about discipleship.
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Yeah.
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Uh one of the big studies we've we've done and kind of uh are still releasing even now, um, has been called the State of Discipleship Study.
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And so it's a significant study we're studying.
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And this is available on the LifeAway website.
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LifeOresearch.com.
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If you go to lifeorresearch.com slash discipleship, you can see all of this data I'll quote here.
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So, you know, it don't feel like you need to write these numbers down to get it, like all that data is there, even more than I'm I than I can even mention here.
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And so we talked to you know, hundreds, if not thousands, pastors, thousands of church goers to get a look at what pastors think is happening and then look at church goers and what what they see happening kind of in their own lives and what they're experiencing discipleship-wise.
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And so we found that that pastors generally think discipleship is going okay in their church.
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They're not confident, but around half say it's going pretty good in their church.
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And so, okay, it's a mixed bag, but that's where they're at.
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And around seven, seven and ten think that you can measure discipleship.
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They think there's something we can do to look at our church and see how people are growing in their faith.
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But then we ask, well, are you doing that?
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Only 29% are actually doing something about measuring discipleship in their congregation.
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And so there's a gap there between, again, there's something discipleship or the research about discipleship reveals for us that pastors have this idea.
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We think discipleship's happening, but they don't really know because we're doing anything prove it.
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Yeah, but besides a couple of anecdotal stories.
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Yeah.
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We've all got our favorite story about, you know, brother Bob who did this and now he's doing that.
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Yeah.
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So and so then we also then looked at churchgoers.
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Okay, so this is what pastors think they're doing, what they think is happening in their churches.
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What are churchgoers actually doing?
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And so we we ask them, it's hundreds of questions.
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I mean, the research is is just extensive, um, about just both their beliefs, what you know, what they believe about things, their practices, how they're actually living this out, what what they do on a daily basis with their faith, what they do at church with their faith, all these questions kind of give it, get an idea.
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And so again, this gets into the the stat nerd stuff that I couldn't even begin to understand, but they kind of look at all that data and say, okay, these are the the issues and the things that kind of trends that are coming out of the research.
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Okay.
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And the buckets that that say these things, these characteristics show up in people who are growing in their faith.
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And so they can kind of you not put a full number on it, but give us a little bit of an idea of this is what discipleship looks like in our church.
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This is how people are or not growing.
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And so Yeah, my guess is that most people are bored to death in tears.
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Most church members are bored because they're simply asked to attend.
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And if you're a really good church member, you give.
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But they're never asked to fully engage their gifts for the cause of the kingdom.
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And and we can kind of see that uh in in some of the ways they're living their faith out.
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Right.
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:40.559
Um, so when we look at those signposts of what we call them, because again, we're not saying these things prove your disciple, these things, or or you're a disciple now if you do these things, but they're saying you're moving in the right direction.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.559
You're growing in Christ-likeness if these eight things show up in your life.
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.320
And so when we look at all the questions.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:48.879
I don't expect you to pull on the eight.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.679
No, so so I'm I was I was like going through, I wrote them down, but I was trying to remember them all in my head to make sure I get the thing.
00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:10.320
Yeah, but it's it's seeking God, it's obeying God, denying self, serving God and others, exercising faith, building relationships, Bible engagement, living unashamed, and sharing Christ.
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:15.679
There are lots of things that kind of make up each of those sections, but those are the bigger buckets that go.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:24.480
And so when you look at those different buckets and kind of average out the scores, the average churchgoer has a 68.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.320
Uh if we're going zero to a hundred, they score sixty-eight, which is the D.
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:28.960
D.
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:31.919
I mean, you know, D for discipleship, but not in a good way.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.720
Well, and and honestly, most people will be okay with that.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.200
If a D gets me into heaven, it's then I'm okay with it.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399
Which may be part of the problem is that we're that's where we're at on some of that.
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:40.799
Yeah.
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:42.720
As long as I pass, I don't.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.279
I don't need I don't need to be the top student here.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:51.120
But hopefully, if if you're uh a pastor, hopefully if you're a church grower, you're thinking, I want to do better than that.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:59.840
You know, this is my this is demonstrating how I'm following Christ, what it looks like for me to love Jesus and walk with him and walk with other believers in the church.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.279
I want to do better than a D.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.480
And a pastor, hopefully, as a pastor, you say, I want my church to do better than a D.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.200
I want them to grow in all these things.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.079
Again, they're just they're just signs that you're growing in Christ's likeness.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.880
They're they're demonstrations of the Holy Spirit working in your life.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.759
They're just you, these are the actions of it's Bible reading.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.559
Are you reading your Bible?
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:17.200
Are you praying?
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.160
Are you sharing Christ?
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.000
Do people around you even know that you're a Christian?
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.359
Those kind of things, not we're not asking you giant things.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.839
And and you, you know, you say what was certainly everybody does that.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.640
You know, I'm kind of known for asking my staff or team members in our work with two questions.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.880
What are you reading in scripture for you?
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.799
Not even what are you reading to preach or teach?
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.839
What are you reading for you?
00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.000
And two, what's Jesus teaching you?
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:41.440
I rabbi is alive.
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:52.240
The number of people, pastors, leaders I have caught that would look at me blank face, can't tell me what they have read in scripture.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:54.400
Well, you need to go home.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.519
You need you need you don't need to be anywhere near what the church is doing because you're dangerous.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.000
Yeah.
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.079
That that's really been even for me, like as I go through these things, I'm thinking through my own self.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:05.680
Like, how am I following Jesus in that way?
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:07.839
And it's funny you ask you ask those questions.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.359
That's something I've tried to start doing in my own home with with uh with our kids.
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.559
Like we we go through at night and I've got a little wheel that like they hit and they spin it on my phone and it pulls up a random question.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.720
So we don't we don't know what everybody didn't know what the question is in a lot.
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.480
And one of them is like, what do you what did you how did you see God in your Bible reading today?
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.640
And how have you seen God working today?
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:27.519
One's like, How are you praying?
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.279
And others, like, how do you see God in a family member?
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.759
Because I want them to be looking at the rest of us in the family and then looking for Jesus in us too.
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.640
So let me get this straight, just to catch you.
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:42.240
What you saw in the stats caused you to go home and rethink.
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:43.599
Yeah.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.119
You were kind of called in the own research.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.559
Yeah, it's part of the stats and part of just God come working in my heart as a father.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.039
Like, you know, how am I leading my family in discipleship?
00:18:53.119 --> 00:19:06.160
I want to grow as a disciple, but how am I leading my family to grow in discipleship so that they're not just going to church and checking off the boxes and doing the things, but the faith is real to them on a daily basis, that they're seeing their faith lived out.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.440
And there's they're not just, you know, I could ask them, did you read your Bible today?
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:13.599
Yeah, I read my Bible today, and it makes and it's in their brain and out the next minute.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.319
But how did you see God in what you read today?
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:17.279
Like that's a different question.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:18.480
What did you do with what you read?
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.079
And how do you apply those things?
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.200
Yeah, it's it's a different question.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:29.359
It helps them to think through, hopefully build those habits in their life where they're thinking through those things, you know, when they're in my home and when they leave my home.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.640
Why should a pastor fool with research?
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.559
Yeah, because they're they're busy.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:34.799
Yeah.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.720
You got a hundred things to do.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.559
And now, Mike, I'm watching your podcast.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:44.960
Now you're telling me I've got to get on lifewayresearch.com and I gotta figure out that 68% of my people are doing.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:45.839
You know, yeah, yeah.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.680
Why why why should why should but because listen, you're you're you you know, you you're preaching to the choir here.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.839
Uh the this thing fires me up.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.119
But I know, listen, a lot of my friends out there, they're you know, they're right here.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:57.359
Yeah.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:02.319
They're treading, you know, and now we're gonna throw, we're gonna throw this brick in their little boat here.
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:02.880
Yeah.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.920
Um what I I hope is it's not a brick.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.680
What I hope is is it's a buoy.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.880
I I hope that it helps them think through their ministry.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.920
You know, what what we think through this everyday life for research.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:24.880
You know, we're not none of us are pastors on staff, but all of us are church people that love our church and love our pastors and want to encourage them in their walk and their ministry.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.400
And so we're thinking like, we're not trying to come up with more weights of pastor, you gotta do a better job.
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.519
You're not, you're, you're, you, you're failing at your job, you gotta do better.
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.359
That's not what that's not our heart at all from this.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:47.039
Our heart is to say, pastors, we want to give you the reality of what's happening in in church and culture so that then God can use the information like he did with me to apply that to your ministry.
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:52.240
And so most of our articles are not, here's all the research.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:54.400
A lot of them are, but most of them aren't.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:59.039
Most of them are here's the research, and here's how that applies to your ministry.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.559
Here's what you can take and how you how you can flesh this out for your men's ministry or to reach the next generation.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.599
Most of the most of the the the articles we're trying to get out there is is to help pastors, encourage them to practically apply the research.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:20.720
And folks don't realize that one of the best things about stats, at least that I have found, is that it helps you stop doing things that aren't working.
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.279
Yeah.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:30.319
Okay, you know they're not working your stuff, but you have a couple of dear saints, and the stats can say, hey, reaching men doesn't work this way anymore.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:32.559
Here's what's happening to the men's ministry.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:38.960
And it gives you some kind of weight behind and it's it's more than just just your opinion.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:39.759
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:59.359
And I I one thing we've tried to do, and hopefully pastors can use this, is that with that research, we did all the research and we developed it, you know, we we saw these eight characteristics standing out, and we talked about those, is that we then at LifeWay took those things and developed a free tool online, it's LifeWay.com slash disciplespath.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.000
And so any pastor anywhere can take that and then go to their church.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.559
And all the questions that we ask churchgoers to get the information to come up with the study, they can ask their churchgoers that.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.880
And so the the pastor thing go and say, All right, well, here's the grade for my church.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:15.599
So it's it's not.
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:17.599
Here's what we find out in reality.
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:18.000
Yeah.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:18.240
Right.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.759
And so, but then also take, okay, here's the areas where they your church needs some growth.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.519
Here's how you can apply that and grow them.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.720
Not so that you sit back and say, oh, I'm doing such a horrible job.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.319
But no, here's how I can grow.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.480
Because then knowledge should lead us to growth.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.640
You know, Jesus, He's the way, the truth, the life.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:41.680
We want to know the truth we were talking earlier about just because it's working in one area, doesn't necessarily define the national trends.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:51.359
And it's not unusual to talk to somebody in a certain small group or a certain Sunday school class, that Sunday school class has helped them through some kind of tough time.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:55.279
They love the church, they love the Sunday school, they love their teacher.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:04.000
And it's all because of that experience, but that experience doesn't necessarily translate to a churchwide trend, right?
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:05.359
And certainly not a national trend.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:05.759
Yeah.
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:16.240
And so hopefully that you know, taking this, you know, hopefully pastors can look at the research on a whole and say, can think through well, how would my church score, but then they can take that assessment tool for free.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.680
You know, it's part of the goal.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.160
Like when we we developed it, that there was a commitment.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.880
We want this to be a service tool for the church.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:23.920
They can use it for free.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.599
We're not asking for any money in there.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.480
It's just they can take it so it's to equip churches to use that.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:34.480
And so pastors can then take that and say, okay, what is actually happening within the bulk of my congregation?
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.200
Not what they because again, people want to please their pastors.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.160
They'll go and tell them all the good stories, but they won't tell them, man, I, you know, I hadn't read my Bible at home in a month.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.200
You know, like they won't.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:47.119
Well, I tell people all the time, here's one thing we know about religious surveys, people lie.
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:48.240
Well, that's also true.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.680
Yeah, you know, yeah.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.039
And so we that there is the limitation for that for stuff.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:01.920
Like you, you you're not, you know, you're you're hoping the people to be honest, but even then, you're still getting a general idea of this is kind of where we're at, and maybe some areas that are weakness.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.680
Obviously, for for across the board, the the lowest score kind of every time we do this is always sharing Christ.
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:09.759
Evangelism is always one of the weakest ones.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:17.440
Um, but it but you it it can give pastors, you know, like you say, the ammunition for change of our our church is really we're great in this area.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.480
We want to we want to strengthen the area, but we're we're struggling in this spot.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.359
How what can we do?
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:30.000
How can we change our ministry, change our focus, change our priorities to make to strengthen this area that that's been weak for our church, and we saw that in the assessment.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:30.559
Okay.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.799
Don't want to go any further until we talk about the magical Gen Z.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.160
Every conversation is Gen Z is doing this, Gen Z is doing that.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.960
So what have you found out about Gen Z?
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:43.680
Yeah.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.359
It's complicated.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.599
And I I think that's the first thing to be said because now we're talking to Baptist preachers.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.279
We want three points and a porn.
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.000
And you can't say complicated to it.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:55.680
And that's what nobody nobody likes that.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.920
We we like the headlines that are, you know, Gen Z's in revival.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:07.279
Or some of us may not may like the headline of Gen Z's the worst generation ever, because it makes us feel good about our generation.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.119
And so, but it's it's complicated.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:11.119
It's not one or the other.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.079
There they are good things happening among Gen Z, and we want to encourage that.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:18.400
And lots of churches are seeing things happening.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.759
And so we talked about this earlier about how anecdotes and statistics, how they work together, they don't discount one another.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.000
Right.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:37.119
You know, the the statistics that may say Gen Z's the least religious generation ever, and that's still the case, doesn't discount your church having seeing tons of college kids come there.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:45.680
But your church that's near a college campus that has a great college ministry, that's reaching Gen Z or even Gen Alpha at this point is not the same thing for the church, like that.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.640
I grew up on a dead end road in a shrinking small town that doesn't have any young families in the area.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:53.200
Like they're not reaching young people because there's none around there to reach.
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.200
So as soon as they got went to college, they left.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:56.079
They never came back.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:01.839
And so, you know, the the statistics kind of paint this broad picture of of what's happening kind of nationally.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.799
And so again, they don't discount the anecdotes of good things happening among there, but they do kind of give a better reality of what's happening all around.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:19.599
And so you can you can look at those anecdotes and say, I I I pray God's blessing on it, that it continues, pray that it spreads, but that's not the case for for nationally.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.680
You know, we look at Gen Z, like they're they're starting off from the least religious standpoint of any generation before them.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.920
More of them were raised in a non-religious home than any other generation before them.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:36.559
And so when you're calling Gen Z to Christ or to church, you're not calling them back to church like you were previous generations.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.440
You know, when I grew up, there were a lot of like, let's get them all back to church.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:40.160
Yeah, right.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.559
You want to get the backsliders, you want to get them back to church.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:43.839
It's it's back to church Sunday.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.920
Invite all the people that used to come back to church.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.960
Well, that's not that's not going to reach them because they never grew up in church.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:57.359
But there are some that are coming to Christ, and there are some that are raised in the church that are committed to it, and we're seeing significant strength of that commitment.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.519
If they're there, they're there bought in.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:06.160
It's just the point of getting them there and having them to decide to follow Christ is is the sticking point so far.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:14.720
Well, what's the point of connection between uh between the unreached Gen Z and re-engaging them with church?
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:16.640
It's always relationships.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:17.200
Okay.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:24.000
It's always do they know somebody that's following Jesus and can they see it in their lives?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:25.039
That's always the case.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:26.000
Nothing has changed.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.119
No, it's it's it's it's if anything, it's it's deepening.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:30.480
But yeah, I mean that that's always been the case.
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.079
You know, do you know somebody that knows Jesus and and can they introduce you to him?
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:35.680
You know, that was the disciples.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:36.960
Like they went and introduced you to the people.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.680
The old joke is there's two ways to get into a Baptist church friendship and kinship.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.160
Yeah.
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:42.480
Right?
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:42.880
Yeah.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.519
And it's I I uh what are you doing in this church?
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:46.960
Well, I'm when I mic's friend.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:47.680
Yeah.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.599
And or else where my mom my mama went.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.960
My mama went here, you know.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:52.319
That's the way you get it.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:53.680
Yeah, that's the way it it happens.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:54.160
Yeah.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:55.920
But that's that's and that's the case with them.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:05.200
You that they're again, and because some of them don't have parents that grew up in the church, or parents that either their parents may have grown up to church, they've stopped attending.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.680
And so they came along, they they haven't been to church.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:09.920
A lot of it's gonna be those friends and relationships.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:20.960
It's gonna take the church being intentional about going out and ministering and serving and connecting with the next generation if they want to see them grow.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:31.519
Again, now, if you start getting them in your church, there can be that kind of flywheel effect that there's more, as you get more, they can you can expand and get more and more and more after that.
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:38.559
But that that first group of young adults, if you don't kind of have that in embedded in your church, it's gonna be difficult.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:42.480
But again, I mean, the Holy the Holy Spirit works, God does the impossible.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:58.079
But it's going to take intentionality and purpose for the church and really following the Holy Spirit's lead to to go out and be intentional about ministering to and forming relationships with, not just like, you know, uh throw a track at them through the drive-thru window and head out the door.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:59.359
Like that's not going to reach them.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:07.680
But forming relationships with them, developing you know, one-on-one conversations, being open to their their you know, conversations.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:14.480
I right now, one of the things I'm doing kind of as outreach, because I work at Lifeway, so I'm uh you know, and I work from home.
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.200
So like I'm I all I see is is believers all the time.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.240
It's it's my family and our dog who may not be saved.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:21.039
I don't know about him.
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:27.920
But um so one of the things I try to do to like get to know some some lost people is we do basketball.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:34.079
Um, you know, I grew up loving basketball, so we play basketball on Tuesday nights, and and it's mostly community guys.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:39.359
And so we if they come, we take prayer requests and I do a quick, quick Bible study with them, five minutes, two tops.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.440
You know, I'm not trying to preach a whole sermon on there.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:49.200
And and we've seen some of them start coming to church, and one of them just recently got baptized, and because we've and that's been years of relationship building.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:30:00.240
And so that's what it's going to take to reach new people with the gospel that didn't grow up in churches, is going to take you you committing months and years of even though that's what I mean.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:04.319
I tell people that, you know, when I when I started evangelism, I was given a pamphlet.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.480
You walk through the four spiritual laws.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.640
After the end of that pamphlet, somebody made a decision.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.200
Right.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.960
Now uh it's months, yeah, if not years.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.759
It's not unusual for someone to say, okay, I'm gonna go think about that.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.160
Yeah.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.319
And then they'll go away for months, two or three months.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:22.559
Yeah.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.759
Come back and say, you know, I've been thinking about what you said.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:27.200
Which is hard.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.640
You know, like for us, we we we want the instantaneous response.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.799
But I think you know, and God's been teaching this to me, you know, with with some of those relationships, other relationships, uh, about trusting his Holy Spirit that he's working even when we're not involved.
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.079
There's a lot of reasons Jesus taught about aquaculture.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:44.480
Yeah.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:49.039
You plant the seed and you wait, but you have no idea what it seems to do it.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.319
And and I mean, I I and I want I want it to be about me.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:58.960
I want I want me to have said the right words and done the right thing and get the right result and all these things.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:03.119
Instead of, well, I said that and maybe I said it wrong, or maybe I didn't, and the Holy Spirit's working.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:03.759
I don't I don't know.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:04.559
Not about you.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:05.279
Right, exactly.
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:06.480
Yeah.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.519
Tell me the one statistic that excites you.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.799
Oh well, I wish everybody knew this.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:19.680
Um I I think the discipleship stuff.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:28.400
Like I like just that pastors think that it's happening, but it's but they don't know that it's happening.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.000
That that's just surprising to me.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.480
That that that we can we can measure something with some kind of concrete effectiveness and see how you folks are doing in your church.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:43.920
But even that they they think that it's happening and they think you can measure it, they don't follow it, but they're not actually measuring it.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:52.160
I that's that's just surprising to me that that you know and again I'm speaking as a layman, I'm speaking on the outside, speaking as a churchgoer, not a not a not a pastor.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:00.240
You know I've served as a deacon, and it, but that's a different thing than serving as a pastor, and so having that ministry, and again, I d I don't want to heap a burden of shame on a pastor for not doing this.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.480
They we talked about it earlier, they have thousands of things they're trying to do.
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:04.000
So we were never trained in this.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:08.720
We were never taught to to to to use these kind of uh materials.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.079
We're not even told about life way research most of the time.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.079
You gotta be kind of a little a little bit of nerd to just go find the organization.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:16.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:17.839
But but you know what I'm saying?
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.519
We're taught we're you know, we're we're taught how to run a business, these kind of things.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:21.920
Yeah.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.559
Not not not not these kind of really helpful stuff.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:25.039
Right.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.319
So what's the stat that uh concerns you?
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.319
That concerns me.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:34.640
I I think we if we go back to Gen Z, just the fact they weren't raised in the church.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:39.119
Uh and we'll we're coming up on another time of doing this research.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:44.079
One of the things we we do regularly at Life of Research is survey the church dropout rate.
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.359
How many people grew up in church and then leave.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.880
The most recent one we have, we're doing another one I think next year.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.440
So the most recent one we have was about six years ago.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:02.160
But it's 66% of people of people who grew up in the church at some point as a young adult leave.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.920
Now some come back, but some never come back.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:18.079
Yeah, the traditional pattern was when I was growing up, you went out to college, you stopped going to church while you were in college, when you got out of college and got serious about life, you went back to church.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:24.799
And everybody said, you know, that there's that four years of wilderness where everybody wanders around, but now they're not coming back.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.240
Yeah, not all of them have come back.
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:43.200
And so, you know, again, as a dad, you know, as a dad and and as you know, someone that that cares about seeing the next generation of discipline grow, like it I I worry or or just wonder like what what what do we need to do as a church to help them not even have those four years?
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:50.400
Like how can we empower them, encourage them just as we send them off to college or send them off in a young adulthood, so they don't even have those four years.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:55.200
So there's not even a time in their life where they're they have to rebuild the habit of church attendance.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:56.720
That it's always something consistent.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:57.759
Yeah.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:13.280
And so, you know, just that that that's always hanging over my head to think about how can we help, you know, youth ministries and and pastors and and and church leaders and and new small group teachers, how can we help them to equip and engage?
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:23.599
Like you said, like you said earlier, you know, like to call them to something more, to not just church is not just you coming and sitting in a pew every week, but but it's it's the adventure of following Jesus.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:34.880
And so how can we equip them to recognize those things and and and to call them to do more than just show up the church, but to be plugged in and be part of a church, part of a body.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.280
Yeah.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:40.400
Remind me again, remind our listeners, lifewayresearch.com.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.039
And lifeway research slash disciple.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.480
Lifewayrresearch.com slash discipleship will give you all of this research.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:49.679
Okay.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:56.800
If you want the tool for your church, the disciples path, you can find that at lifeway.com slash disciplespath.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:56.960
Okay.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.840
It's all one word, you know, together there, disciples path.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.159
And so that gives you the free assessment that we talked about that that was all the research we did.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:10.960
That's the assessment churches can can take for their members and kind of figure out where they're at and kind of evaluate discipleship happening in their congregation.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.199
And is this high quality, good stuff?
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.840
Aaron, thank you for being with us today.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:17.519
Thank you, appreciate all you brought.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.559
Thank you.
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.519
Aaron Earls from uh Lifeway has joined us today on the podcast.
00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:10.560
We're glad you're here.
00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:14.160
So so you and I are are have South Carolina in common.
00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:15.039
We do, we do.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.480
You grew up in Blacksburg?
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:18.000
Blacksburg, South Carolina, yes, sir.
00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:18.239
Yeah.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:18.640
Yeah.
00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:20.320
Small, small town.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:21.760
I actually know where that is.
00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.320
Which is unusual for somebody in Tennessee to live.
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:34.880
Well, I pastored in Edgefield and I was strong uh Thurman's pastor when I was a and then from there we moved to Malden, so the Greenville area.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:36.719
So all of those areas.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:37.359
That's right.
00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:41.359
I was in South Carolina long enough to think the upstate was better than the low country.
00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.079
I grew up I grew up in the upstate.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.399
I I don't want to say that because my wife grew up in the low country, so I don't want to sort that up.
00:00:48.719 --> 00:01:00.000
You guys mentioned marriage there, but those from maybe in South Carolina will know that that uh that is a real kind of uh rivalry between the upstate and and and the low country, as they call it.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:00.719
Okay.
00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:07.359
Uh we have read lots of numbers and lots of statistics about what's going on.
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.799
So how does a nice guy like you end up in stats of all things?
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:18.879
Yeah, I if you'd have told me growing up I was gonna be doing anything with math, I would have laughed in your face.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:20.239
There's no way I'm not a math person.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:25.760
I hated math in school, just wanted to always wanted to spend my time in literature and English and reading and writing of those things.
00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:26.799
I love that.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:31.760
And so my undergrad that I graduated with North Greenville uh is in journalism, and so I wanted to write.
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:36.959
Um obviously, you know, the newspapers aren't exactly blowing up the seams right now, hiring a lot of people.
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:39.760
So, you know, how how do you apply journalism to you know a career?
00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.439
And I knew God had really called me to serve the church with those writing gifts.
00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:57.120
And so I graduated with a master divinity from uh Southeastern Theological Seminary in Wake Forest and and felt God call us the life way and started serving it life way and just kind of fell into writing more and more about research.
00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.000
And it was you also got a degree in apologetics, right?
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.200
The focus of the MDiv was apologetics.
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:03.760
It was, yeah.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:07.040
Which is also about making the faith make sense.
00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:07.439
Yeah.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:14.719
Communicate bridging what we know on one side to those who do not understand on the other side.
00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:24.800
It I it's interesting you say that again, like I so it comes out that way that that my degrees and my passions are to help people understand things they may not understand to start with, and to serve as a bridge.
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:36.080
And so I see that with with the research is that it's an avenue to connect people with something that may be abstract, maybe that that's difficult to understand, difficult to put into to practice what that means.
00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.800
But then you can take those numbers and say, okay, what does this mean?
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:40.719
How is it how can I apply this to my life?
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:58.000
You're the you're the walking example of what we preach real hard around here at the Engaged Church Network, in that all of us have gifts, all of us have passions, yeah, and we serve the church, we serve the Lord best when we find a way to connect that passion to the service of God's kingdom.
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:07.360
Yeah, that's and and your ability to one, understand what the stats are saying, because we remember uh Mark Twain's quote about stats.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:07.919
Okay.
00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:22.400
To understand what they're doing, and then to help a uh a leader of a local congregation understand what those mean, what what those stats mean and how they can be applied to bring about real change, yeah, is is a gift.
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.759
And it it certainly is to me because I read of all that stuff, and most of the time I'm going, huh?
00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:38.159
Now, I I definitely do have to to go back sometimes and and ask their statisticians and I and the guys that do the research, help me understand this and let's let's break this down a little bit.
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.080
Because they have their own language, they talk in you know, math nerd, and they have that conversation.
00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:52.400
And so, but so but you know, helping them to help me understand it and then getting there from again, okay, how can I then help transfer structures to the guys on the street so they can take and apply it?
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.479
That'd be good if it's just numbers sitting out there.
00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.159
Yeah, what what's been the most surprising thing you've learned?
00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:03.599
Um I think just how much research can help and benefit.
00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:13.120
Um, in in in a lot of ways, we can have different pictures or ideas of what the church is or what culture is or what pastors are doing.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:19.519
And and those may be good and helpful and they may be right in our context, but they not may not give us a full picture of it.
00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:21.600
I in general, I'm a positive person.
00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:28.160
Like I generally kind of think people are doing the right thing and good stuff, and I want to assume the best of somebody else.
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.040
And so I may go into situations and think, okay, everybody's doing this.
00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.120
Growing up, I thought everybody followed Jesus.
00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:33.839
That's just what you did.
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:34.160
Right.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:35.680
Well, yeah, I grew up in the same kind of neighborhood.
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.879
But then you go out and look at them, well, that's not always the case.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:41.120
And and I think research can help serve that.
00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:46.800
And I discovered that for me, like looking at this research, and and you may think everybody really knows Jesus and they want to follow him.
00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:48.879
And some people do, but some people don't.
00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:57.040
And I think research gives us a clearer picture of the reality of what's happening, the reality of what's happening in God's creation in the in the world, the be the how he's working and what he's doing.
00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:58.959
You research gives us that fuller picture.
00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:06.480
It doesn't negate what you and I see in our church or in our context, but it does give us a fuller picture of what all is happening around us.
00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:11.759
And so it's been you know encouraging and challenging for me to kind of see both both sides of that.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.800
I think sometimes research gives us a better picture.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.720
We may come into it thinking, oh, things are better.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.759
Or sometimes it may give us you know a sobering look at it.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:22.879
Oh, this is I thought it was way better than this, but it's not giving us that.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:33.439
Aaron, for our listeners, explain to us exactly what a writer at the research division of LifeWay, Lifeway Research, does.
00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:34.879
You're not the math guy.
00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:36.079
No, absolutely not.
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:40.959
I'm I'm definitely not the math person, and our math people would not want me to claim I'm the math person at all.
00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:47.759
Um but I I I see my role a bit like a translator or a bridge builder.
00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:57.279
Um, you know, just to be able to take the information that's over there, this this raw and the numbers and you know, and kind of seem intimidating for a lot of people.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:04.480
And it is for me, kind of when I first look at it, you know, it they send me a report and it's got all this stuff on there, and it's it's a lot um to kind of take in.
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:13.360
But I I you know, I see my job, my role as to take all of that information and then kind of translate it to what does the pastor need to know about this?
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:24.079
And that that's really my my lens when I go to write an article or you know, that what is a church that need to take away from this that can help empower and encourage them in their ministry, or that can inform them about their ministry.
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:31.519
Maybe sometimes it may be bad news, but taking that information so that it can go to them and they can see how can we apply this?
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:32.879
What does this mean for us?
00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:38.959
And so, you know, a lot of times people think about numbers and they they their heads get squirrely, and again, I understand that.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:56.399
Um so I so I view my my position, my role there is just to encourage them, but it's not always the case, and to and to be that bridge over to here's the numbers, but here's how that what that means for your ministry in your life in your context.
00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:56.959
Okay.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:02.319
Now, for the poor little pastor who just heard that, who said, Listen, I've already had to learn Greek, Hebrew.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.160
Now you're telling me that you're gonna do numbers too.
00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:06.079
Now you're telling me I gotta do math.
00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:06.560
Okay.
00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:16.079
Why would it be important for a pastor of a local church, you know, four-way stop Baptist Church, to understand these kind of stats?
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:16.560
Yeah.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.160
I mean, that's the church I grew up in.
00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:26.000
So you know my my my background is uh, you know, we were triple digits on a great Sunday on a dead end road in South Carolina.
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.399
You know, I I I didn't grow up in a big church that had lots of staff.
00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.639
We had one pastor, and it's for a while there I served as like a volunteer youth pastor there.
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.560
So I understand kind of that context and those things.
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.480
Uh I would just say I don't, you don't necessarily have to know the numbers.
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:46.480
Hopefully I'm doing my job and you don't have to translate that for hopefully I'm translating it for you to help you understand those things.
00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:54.319
But I think what I would want to tell them, what I want them to understand is this gives you a clearer picture of the things that are happening.
00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.759
You see lots of things happening in your church and you read the news.
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.480
We all know, like uh, those don't give you the full picture.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.759
The news is coming from their own perspective, and even your context is limited.
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:10.720
You see what happens in your town, in your church, in your community, but you don't even see what happens to the town over or the state over across the country.
00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:20.000
And so hopefully what this research can do is give you a fuller picture of this is the context of the church as a whole in our country.
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.759
You can look at regions or different areas or different church sizes.
00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:27.839
You know, when we we do our research, we break it down by church size.
00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:33.519
And so maybe it may not benefit you to see what a pastor of a 500 church is doing.
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.279
But part of the breakout is is it different for churches under 50?
00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:42.559
And so you can look at that part of the research and say, okay, well, what's happening for small churches or normal sized churches?
00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:43.519
What's happening in those kinds of children?
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:44.960
One size does not fit all.
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:45.279
Right.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:58.159
And so the good thing about a research is we'll go and take those significant differences and say, it's this case in a large church, but in a one pastor 49-member church, this is what's happening in their context.
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:08.159
And so we're trying to give a full picture of that so that those pastors in those church can see this is what's happening everywhere, and hopefully they can see, I'm not alone in this.
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:13.360
It can give them you, maybe they're experiencing some some some troubles and some struggles, and they're really struggling.
00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:14.639
Yeah.
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.480
We're really struggling in this area.
00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:21.279
And and, you know, the enemy can lie to them and say, Man, you're all alone in this, you're a failure.
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:22.639
You're the only one that can't do this.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.559
You can't, yeah, you can't get this right.
00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.720
And hopefully the research in that way can help them to say, I'm not alone in this.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.200
You know, obviously God is walking with me in my identities in Christ, not in not in ministry success.
00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.320
But I'm not the only pastor struggling with this.
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.080
I'm not the only church that's going through this issue.
00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:43.279
This is happening to lots of people in lots of areas, and but there are ways I can improve in this.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:51.519
And so hopefully that the research can encourage them in that way, but also then give them the equipment and the direction to move forward and grow in that.
00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:52.080
Okay.
00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:52.720
All right.
00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.080
Now, you know what you've done.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.360
You have given the local pastor a hammer.
00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:00.159
Okay.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.679
And once you get a hammer, everything's an ale, everything looks like an ale.
00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:04.559
Okay.
00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:10.879
So I get on the the library research website and I, oh, this is cool, this is cool, all that stuff.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.440
And now I'm running my church, my research.
00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:16.320
Yeah.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:19.519
Probably not the best way.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.879
Absolutely not.
00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:32.960
If you look at at the early church, how it was found that, you know, statistically, they were a tiny, tiny segment in a tiny part of the backwater of the Roman Empire.
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:34.720
That's not going to do anything.
00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:36.000
But you know what, what did they say?
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:40.080
These are the men that come in, they've turned the world upside down because they're commitment to Christ.
00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:45.679
Statistics should not ever be used to downplay or diminish the work of the Holy Spirit.
00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.080
God is working and moving in things.
00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.679
And statistics may or may not pick those things up to start off with.
00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:59.759
And so the church should not ever say, Well, we can't do this, or we can't do what God's called us to do because the stats say we shouldn't do it that way.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:05.200
You're not running a business, you're not running an organization based on stockholder portfolio returns.
00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:08.559
You're running, you're you're shepherding the church of Christ.
00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.840
And so you're you're not answering to what the stats say.
00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:12.320
You're answering.
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.080
What's God called you to do in the in that local congregation?
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:20.159
Now, hopefully the research can inform you of this is the context we're in.
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.039
And maybe you decide, man, I really feel like God is leading us to do something that the statistics don't back up.
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:25.519
That's right.
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:27.120
Then follow Jesus.
00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:28.080
Don't follow the numbers.
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:34.480
But maybe the numbers are saying, hey, this is more likely to reach men, or this is more likely to help you reach the next generation.
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:36.080
Have we tried it that way?
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:43.600
You know, maybe the statistics bump you out of a rut of ministry, but you don't want to, you don't want the statistics to stop you from doing what God's called you to do.
00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.759
And I that would be a horrible danger.
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.200
And I think we've seen probably some of the outcomes of those dangers of people trying to run it like a lot of things.
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:54.399
One of the things that states do is it allows you to learn from the the trial and error of others.
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:54.799
Yeah.
00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:03.279
You know, if if we get a stat that says 30% do this, then we know that there's been a lot of 70% out there.
00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:10.399
And maybe you don't have to learn what we call experiential learning, where truth just beats you in the head until you get it.
00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:10.720
Right.
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.080
Uh hopefully the numbers let you skip past that, not get beaten the head with it.
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:14.879
That that's the hope.
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.960
But again, man, if God calls you to do something, don't let the numbers stop you from doing what God called you to do.
00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:19.679
Absolutely.
00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:23.919
Don't use any uh stats for an excuse for disobedience.
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:24.639
Right, yeah.
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:25.360
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:26.240
That that's a great word.
00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.960
The stats should not be used as an excuse for the disobedience of a pastor, the church girl, or anybody.
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.840
You should be following the the Holy Spirit working in your life, regardless of what numbers may or may not say.
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.399
What the stats are telling about discipleship.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:39.039
Yeah.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:46.240
Uh one of the big studies we've we've done and kind of uh are still releasing even now, um, has been called the State of Discipleship Study.
00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.320
And so it's a significant study we're studying.
00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.320
And this is available on the LifeAway website.
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:51.600
LifeOresearch.com.
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.919
If you go to lifeorresearch.com slash discipleship, you can see all of this data I'll quote here.
00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:02.320
So, you know, it don't feel like you need to write these numbers down to get it, like all that data is there, even more than I'm I than I can even mention here.
00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:15.679
And so we talked to you know, hundreds, if not thousands, pastors, thousands of church goers to get a look at what pastors think is happening and then look at church goers and what what they see happening kind of in their own lives and what they're experiencing discipleship-wise.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:23.360
And so we found that that pastors generally think discipleship is going okay in their church.
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.960
They're not confident, but around half say it's going pretty good in their church.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.919
And so, okay, it's a mixed bag, but that's where they're at.
00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:35.039
And around seven, seven and ten think that you can measure discipleship.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:40.639
They think there's something we can do to look at our church and see how people are growing in their faith.
00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:43.279
But then we ask, well, are you doing that?
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.399
Only 29% are actually doing something about measuring discipleship in their congregation.
00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:56.159
And so there's a gap there between, again, there's something discipleship or the research about discipleship reveals for us that pastors have this idea.
00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:01.759
We think discipleship's happening, but they don't really know because we're doing anything prove it.
00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.679
Yeah, but besides a couple of anecdotal stories.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:04.000
Yeah.
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:08.639
We've all got our favorite story about, you know, brother Bob who did this and now he's doing that.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:09.440
Yeah.
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.639
So and so then we also then looked at churchgoers.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.480
Okay, so this is what pastors think they're doing, what they think is happening in their churches.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.799
What are churchgoers actually doing?
00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.399
And so we we ask them, it's hundreds of questions.
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:36.960
I mean, the research is is just extensive, um, about just both their beliefs, what you know, what they believe about things, their practices, how they're actually living this out, what what they do on a daily basis with their faith, what they do at church with their faith, all these questions kind of give it, get an idea.
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:48.960
And so again, this gets into the the stat nerd stuff that I couldn't even begin to understand, but they kind of look at all that data and say, okay, these are the the issues and the things that kind of trends that are coming out of the research.
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:49.200
Okay.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:55.679
And the buckets that that say these things, these characteristics show up in people who are growing in their faith.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:01.679
And so they can kind of you not put a full number on it, but give us a little bit of an idea of this is what discipleship looks like in our church.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.320
This is how people are or not growing.
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:09.200
And so Yeah, my guess is that most people are bored to death in tears.
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:14.240
Most church members are bored because they're simply asked to attend.
00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.879
And if you're a really good church member, you give.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:21.120
But they're never asked to fully engage their gifts for the cause of the kingdom.
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.320
And and we can kind of see that uh in in some of the ways they're living their faith out.
00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:26.639
Right.
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:40.559
Um, so when we look at those signposts of what we call them, because again, we're not saying these things prove your disciple, these things, or or you're a disciple now if you do these things, but they're saying you're moving in the right direction.
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.559
You're growing in Christ-likeness if these eight things show up in your life.
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.320
And so when we look at all the questions.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:48.879
I don't expect you to pull on the eight.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.679
No, so so I'm I was I was like going through, I wrote them down, but I was trying to remember them all in my head to make sure I get the thing.
00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:10.320
Yeah, but it's it's seeking God, it's obeying God, denying self, serving God and others, exercising faith, building relationships, Bible engagement, living unashamed, and sharing Christ.
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:15.679
There are lots of things that kind of make up each of those sections, but those are the bigger buckets that go.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:24.480
And so when you look at those different buckets and kind of average out the scores, the average churchgoer has a 68.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.320
Uh if we're going zero to a hundred, they score sixty-eight, which is the D.
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:28.960
D.
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:31.919
I mean, you know, D for discipleship, but not in a good way.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.720
Well, and and honestly, most people will be okay with that.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.200
If a D gets me into heaven, it's then I'm okay with it.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399
Which may be part of the problem is that we're that's where we're at on some of that.
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:40.799
Yeah.
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:42.720
As long as I pass, I don't.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.279
I don't need I don't need to be the top student here.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:51.120
But hopefully, if if you're uh a pastor, hopefully if you're a church grower, you're thinking, I want to do better than that.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:59.840
You know, this is my this is demonstrating how I'm following Christ, what it looks like for me to love Jesus and walk with him and walk with other believers in the church.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.279
I want to do better than a D.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.480
And a pastor, hopefully, as a pastor, you say, I want my church to do better than a D.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.200
I want them to grow in all these things.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.079
Again, they're just they're just signs that you're growing in Christ's likeness.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.880
They're they're demonstrations of the Holy Spirit working in your life.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.759
They're just you, these are the actions of it's Bible reading.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.559
Are you reading your Bible?
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:17.200
Are you praying?
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.160
Are you sharing Christ?
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.000
Do people around you even know that you're a Christian?
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.359
Those kind of things, not we're not asking you giant things.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.839
And and you, you know, you say what was certainly everybody does that.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:32.640
You know, I'm kind of known for asking my staff or team members in our work with two questions.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.880
What are you reading in scripture for you?
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.799
Not even what are you reading to preach or teach?
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.839
What are you reading for you?
00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.000
And two, what's Jesus teaching you?
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:41.440
I rabbi is alive.
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:52.240
The number of people, pastors, leaders I have caught that would look at me blank face, can't tell me what they have read in scripture.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:54.400
Well, you need to go home.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.519
You need you need you don't need to be anywhere near what the church is doing because you're dangerous.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:00.000
Yeah.
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.079
That that's really been even for me, like as I go through these things, I'm thinking through my own self.
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:05.680
Like, how am I following Jesus in that way?
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:07.839
And it's funny you ask you ask those questions.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.359
That's something I've tried to start doing in my own home with with uh with our kids.
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.559
Like we we go through at night and I've got a little wheel that like they hit and they spin it on my phone and it pulls up a random question.
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.720
So we don't we don't know what everybody didn't know what the question is in a lot.
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.480
And one of them is like, what do you what did you how did you see God in your Bible reading today?
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.640
And how have you seen God working today?
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:27.519
One's like, How are you praying?
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.279
And others, like, how do you see God in a family member?
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.759
Because I want them to be looking at the rest of us in the family and then looking for Jesus in us too.
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.640
So let me get this straight, just to catch you.
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:42.240
What you saw in the stats caused you to go home and rethink.
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:43.599
Yeah.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.119
You were kind of called in the own research.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.559
Yeah, it's part of the stats and part of just God come working in my heart as a father.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.039
Like, you know, how am I leading my family in discipleship?
00:18:53.119 --> 00:19:06.160
I want to grow as a disciple, but how am I leading my family to grow in discipleship so that they're not just going to church and checking off the boxes and doing the things, but the faith is real to them on a daily basis, that they're seeing their faith lived out.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.440
And there's they're not just, you know, I could ask them, did you read your Bible today?
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:13.599
Yeah, I read my Bible today, and it makes and it's in their brain and out the next minute.
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.319
But how did you see God in what you read today?
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:17.279
Like that's a different question.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:18.480
What did you do with what you read?
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.079
And how do you apply those things?
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.200
Yeah, it's it's a different question.
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:29.359
It helps them to think through, hopefully build those habits in their life where they're thinking through those things, you know, when they're in my home and when they leave my home.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.640
Why should a pastor fool with research?
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.559
Yeah, because they're they're busy.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:34.799
Yeah.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:36.720
You got a hundred things to do.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.559
And now, Mike, I'm watching your podcast.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:44.960
Now you're telling me I've got to get on lifewayresearch.com and I gotta figure out that 68% of my people are doing.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:45.839
You know, yeah, yeah.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.680
Why why why should why should but because listen, you're you're you you know, you you're preaching to the choir here.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.839
Uh the this thing fires me up.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.119
But I know, listen, a lot of my friends out there, they're you know, they're right here.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:57.359
Yeah.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:02.319
They're treading, you know, and now we're gonna throw, we're gonna throw this brick in their little boat here.
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:02.880
Yeah.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.920
Um what I I hope is it's not a brick.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.680
What I hope is is it's a buoy.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.880
I I hope that it helps them think through their ministry.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.920
You know, what what we think through this everyday life for research.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:24.880
You know, we're not none of us are pastors on staff, but all of us are church people that love our church and love our pastors and want to encourage them in their walk and their ministry.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.400
And so we're thinking like, we're not trying to come up with more weights of pastor, you gotta do a better job.
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.519
You're not, you're, you're, you, you're failing at your job, you gotta do better.
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.359
That's not what that's not our heart at all from this.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:47.039
Our heart is to say, pastors, we want to give you the reality of what's happening in in church and culture so that then God can use the information like he did with me to apply that to your ministry.
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:52.240
And so most of our articles are not, here's all the research.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:54.400
A lot of them are, but most of them aren't.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:59.039
Most of them are here's the research, and here's how that applies to your ministry.
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.559
Here's what you can take and how you how you can flesh this out for your men's ministry or to reach the next generation.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.599
Most of the most of the the the articles we're trying to get out there is is to help pastors, encourage them to practically apply the research.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:20.720
And folks don't realize that one of the best things about stats, at least that I have found, is that it helps you stop doing things that aren't working.
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.279
Yeah.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:30.319
Okay, you know they're not working your stuff, but you have a couple of dear saints, and the stats can say, hey, reaching men doesn't work this way anymore.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:32.559
Here's what's happening to the men's ministry.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:38.960
And it gives you some kind of weight behind and it's it's more than just just your opinion.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:39.759
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:59.359
And I I one thing we've tried to do, and hopefully pastors can use this, is that with that research, we did all the research and we developed it, you know, we we saw these eight characteristics standing out, and we talked about those, is that we then at LifeWay took those things and developed a free tool online, it's LifeWay.com slash disciplespath.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.000
And so any pastor anywhere can take that and then go to their church.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.559
And all the questions that we ask churchgoers to get the information to come up with the study, they can ask their churchgoers that.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.880
And so the the pastor thing go and say, All right, well, here's the grade for my church.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:15.599
So it's it's not.
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:17.599
Here's what we find out in reality.
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:18.000
Yeah.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:18.240
Right.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.759
And so, but then also take, okay, here's the areas where they your church needs some growth.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.519
Here's how you can apply that and grow them.
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.720
Not so that you sit back and say, oh, I'm doing such a horrible job.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.319
But no, here's how I can grow.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.480
Because then knowledge should lead us to growth.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.640
You know, Jesus, He's the way, the truth, the life.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:41.680
We want to know the truth we were talking earlier about just because it's working in one area, doesn't necessarily define the national trends.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:51.359
And it's not unusual to talk to somebody in a certain small group or a certain Sunday school class, that Sunday school class has helped them through some kind of tough time.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:55.279
They love the church, they love the Sunday school, they love their teacher.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:04.000
And it's all because of that experience, but that experience doesn't necessarily translate to a churchwide trend, right?
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:05.359
And certainly not a national trend.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:05.759
Yeah.
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:16.240
And so hopefully that you know, taking this, you know, hopefully pastors can look at the research on a whole and say, can think through well, how would my church score, but then they can take that assessment tool for free.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.680
You know, it's part of the goal.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.160
Like when we we developed it, that there was a commitment.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.880
We want this to be a service tool for the church.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:23.920
They can use it for free.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.599
We're not asking for any money in there.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.480
It's just they can take it so it's to equip churches to use that.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:34.480
And so pastors can then take that and say, okay, what is actually happening within the bulk of my congregation?
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.200
Not what they because again, people want to please their pastors.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.160
They'll go and tell them all the good stories, but they won't tell them, man, I, you know, I hadn't read my Bible at home in a month.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.200
You know, like they won't.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:47.119
Well, I tell people all the time, here's one thing we know about religious surveys, people lie.
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:48.240
Well, that's also true.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.680
Yeah, you know, yeah.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.039
And so we that there is the limitation for that for stuff.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:01.920
Like you, you you're not, you know, you're you're hoping the people to be honest, but even then, you're still getting a general idea of this is kind of where we're at, and maybe some areas that are weakness.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.680
Obviously, for for across the board, the the lowest score kind of every time we do this is always sharing Christ.
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:09.759
Evangelism is always one of the weakest ones.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:17.440
Um, but it but you it it can give pastors, you know, like you say, the ammunition for change of our our church is really we're great in this area.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.480
We want to we want to strengthen the area, but we're we're struggling in this spot.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.359
How what can we do?
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:30.000
How can we change our ministry, change our focus, change our priorities to make to strengthen this area that that's been weak for our church, and we saw that in the assessment.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:30.559
Okay.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.799
Don't want to go any further until we talk about the magical Gen Z.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.160
Every conversation is Gen Z is doing this, Gen Z is doing that.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.960
So what have you found out about Gen Z?
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:43.680
Yeah.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.359
It's complicated.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.599
And I I think that's the first thing to be said because now we're talking to Baptist preachers.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.279
We want three points and a porn.
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.000
And you can't say complicated to it.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:55.680
And that's what nobody nobody likes that.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.920
We we like the headlines that are, you know, Gen Z's in revival.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:07.279
Or some of us may not may like the headline of Gen Z's the worst generation ever, because it makes us feel good about our generation.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.119
And so, but it's it's complicated.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:11.119
It's not one or the other.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.079
There they are good things happening among Gen Z, and we want to encourage that.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:18.400
And lots of churches are seeing things happening.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.759
And so we talked about this earlier about how anecdotes and statistics, how they work together, they don't discount one another.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.000
Right.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:37.119
You know, the the statistics that may say Gen Z's the least religious generation ever, and that's still the case, doesn't discount your church having seeing tons of college kids come there.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:45.680
But your church that's near a college campus that has a great college ministry, that's reaching Gen Z or even Gen Alpha at this point is not the same thing for the church, like that.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.640
I grew up on a dead end road in a shrinking small town that doesn't have any young families in the area.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:53.200
Like they're not reaching young people because there's none around there to reach.
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.200
So as soon as they got went to college, they left.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:56.079
They never came back.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:01.839
And so, you know, the the statistics kind of paint this broad picture of of what's happening kind of nationally.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.799
And so again, they don't discount the anecdotes of good things happening among there, but they do kind of give a better reality of what's happening all around.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:19.599
And so you can you can look at those anecdotes and say, I I I pray God's blessing on it, that it continues, pray that it spreads, but that's not the case for for nationally.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.680
You know, we look at Gen Z, like they're they're starting off from the least religious standpoint of any generation before them.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.920
More of them were raised in a non-religious home than any other generation before them.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:36.559
And so when you're calling Gen Z to Christ or to church, you're not calling them back to church like you were previous generations.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.440
You know, when I grew up, there were a lot of like, let's get them all back to church.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:40.160
Yeah, right.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.559
You want to get the backsliders, you want to get them back to church.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:43.839
It's it's back to church Sunday.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.920
Invite all the people that used to come back to church.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.960
Well, that's not that's not going to reach them because they never grew up in church.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:57.359
But there are some that are coming to Christ, and there are some that are raised in the church that are committed to it, and we're seeing significant strength of that commitment.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.519
If they're there, they're there bought in.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:06.160
It's just the point of getting them there and having them to decide to follow Christ is is the sticking point so far.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:14.720
Well, what's the point of connection between uh between the unreached Gen Z and re-engaging them with church?
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:16.640
It's always relationships.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:17.200
Okay.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:24.000
It's always do they know somebody that's following Jesus and can they see it in their lives?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:25.039
That's always the case.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:26.000
Nothing has changed.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.119
No, it's it's it's it's if anything, it's it's deepening.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:30.480
But yeah, I mean that that's always been the case.
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.079
You know, do you know somebody that knows Jesus and and can they introduce you to him?
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:35.680
You know, that was the disciples.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:36.960
Like they went and introduced you to the people.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.680
The old joke is there's two ways to get into a Baptist church friendship and kinship.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.160
Yeah.
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:42.480
Right?
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:42.880
Yeah.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.519
And it's I I uh what are you doing in this church?
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:46.960
Well, I'm when I mic's friend.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:47.680
Yeah.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.599
And or else where my mom my mama went.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.960
My mama went here, you know.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:52.319
That's the way you get it.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:53.680
Yeah, that's the way it it happens.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:54.160
Yeah.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:55.920
But that's that's and that's the case with them.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:05.200
You that they're again, and because some of them don't have parents that grew up in the church, or parents that either their parents may have grown up to church, they've stopped attending.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.680
And so they came along, they they haven't been to church.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:09.920
A lot of it's gonna be those friends and relationships.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:20.960
It's gonna take the church being intentional about going out and ministering and serving and connecting with the next generation if they want to see them grow.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:31.519
Again, now, if you start getting them in your church, there can be that kind of flywheel effect that there's more, as you get more, they can you can expand and get more and more and more after that.
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:38.559
But that that first group of young adults, if you don't kind of have that in embedded in your church, it's gonna be difficult.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:42.480
But again, I mean, the Holy the Holy Spirit works, God does the impossible.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:58.079
But it's going to take intentionality and purpose for the church and really following the Holy Spirit's lead to to go out and be intentional about ministering to and forming relationships with, not just like, you know, uh throw a track at them through the drive-thru window and head out the door.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:59.359
Like that's not going to reach them.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:07.680
But forming relationships with them, developing you know, one-on-one conversations, being open to their their you know, conversations.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:14.480
I right now, one of the things I'm doing kind of as outreach, because I work at Lifeway, so I'm uh you know, and I work from home.
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.200
So like I'm I all I see is is believers all the time.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.240
It's it's my family and our dog who may not be saved.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:21.039
I don't know about him.
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:27.920
But um so one of the things I try to do to like get to know some some lost people is we do basketball.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:34.079
Um, you know, I grew up loving basketball, so we play basketball on Tuesday nights, and and it's mostly community guys.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:39.359
And so we if they come, we take prayer requests and I do a quick, quick Bible study with them, five minutes, two tops.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.440
You know, I'm not trying to preach a whole sermon on there.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:49.200
And and we've seen some of them start coming to church, and one of them just recently got baptized, and because we've and that's been years of relationship building.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:30:00.240
And so that's what it's going to take to reach new people with the gospel that didn't grow up in churches, is going to take you you committing months and years of even though that's what I mean.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:04.319
I tell people that, you know, when I when I started evangelism, I was given a pamphlet.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.480
You walk through the four spiritual laws.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.640
After the end of that pamphlet, somebody made a decision.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.200
Right.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.960
Now uh it's months, yeah, if not years.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.759
It's not unusual for someone to say, okay, I'm gonna go think about that.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.160
Yeah.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.319
And then they'll go away for months, two or three months.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:22.559
Yeah.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.759
Come back and say, you know, I've been thinking about what you said.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:27.200
Which is hard.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.640
You know, like for us, we we we want the instantaneous response.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.799
But I think you know, and God's been teaching this to me, you know, with with some of those relationships, other relationships, uh, about trusting his Holy Spirit that he's working even when we're not involved.
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.079
There's a lot of reasons Jesus taught about aquaculture.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:44.480
Yeah.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:49.039
You plant the seed and you wait, but you have no idea what it seems to do it.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.319
And and I mean, I I and I want I want it to be about me.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:58.960
I want I want me to have said the right words and done the right thing and get the right result and all these things.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:03.119
Instead of, well, I said that and maybe I said it wrong, or maybe I didn't, and the Holy Spirit's working.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:03.759
I don't I don't know.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:04.559
Not about you.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:05.279
Right, exactly.
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:06.480
Yeah.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.519
Tell me the one statistic that excites you.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.799
Oh well, I wish everybody knew this.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:19.680
Um I I think the discipleship stuff.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:28.400
Like I like just that pastors think that it's happening, but it's but they don't know that it's happening.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.000
That that's just surprising to me.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.480
That that that we can we can measure something with some kind of concrete effectiveness and see how you folks are doing in your church.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:43.920
But even that they they think that it's happening and they think you can measure it, they don't follow it, but they're not actually measuring it.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:52.160
I that's that's just surprising to me that that you know and again I'm speaking as a layman, I'm speaking on the outside, speaking as a churchgoer, not a not a not a pastor.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:00.240
You know I've served as a deacon, and it, but that's a different thing than serving as a pastor, and so having that ministry, and again, I d I don't want to heap a burden of shame on a pastor for not doing this.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.480
They we talked about it earlier, they have thousands of things they're trying to do.
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:04.000
So we were never trained in this.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:08.720
We were never taught to to to to use these kind of uh materials.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.079
We're not even told about life way research most of the time.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.079
You gotta be kind of a little a little bit of nerd to just go find the organization.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:16.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:17.839
But but you know what I'm saying?
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.519
We're taught we're you know, we're we're taught how to run a business, these kind of things.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:21.920
Yeah.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.559
Not not not not these kind of really helpful stuff.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:25.039
Right.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.319
So what's the stat that uh concerns you?
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.319
That concerns me.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:34.640
I I think we if we go back to Gen Z, just the fact they weren't raised in the church.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:39.119
Uh and we'll we're coming up on another time of doing this research.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:44.079
One of the things we we do regularly at Life of Research is survey the church dropout rate.
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.359
How many people grew up in church and then leave.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.880
The most recent one we have, we're doing another one I think next year.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.440
So the most recent one we have was about six years ago.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:02.160
But it's 66% of people of people who grew up in the church at some point as a young adult leave.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.920
Now some come back, but some never come back.
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:18.079
Yeah, the traditional pattern was when I was growing up, you went out to college, you stopped going to church while you were in college, when you got out of college and got serious about life, you went back to church.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:24.799
And everybody said, you know, that there's that four years of wilderness where everybody wanders around, but now they're not coming back.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.240
Yeah, not all of them have come back.
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:43.200
And so, you know, again, as a dad, you know, as a dad and and as you know, someone that that cares about seeing the next generation of discipline grow, like it I I worry or or just wonder like what what what do we need to do as a church to help them not even have those four years?
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:50.400
Like how can we empower them, encourage them just as we send them off to college or send them off in a young adulthood, so they don't even have those four years.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:55.200
So there's not even a time in their life where they're they have to rebuild the habit of church attendance.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:56.720
That it's always something consistent.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:57.759
Yeah.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:13.280
And so, you know, just that that that's always hanging over my head to think about how can we help, you know, youth ministries and and pastors and and and church leaders and and new small group teachers, how can we help them to equip and engage?
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:23.599
Like you said, like you said earlier, you know, like to call them to something more, to not just church is not just you coming and sitting in a pew every week, but but it's it's the adventure of following Jesus.
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:34.880
And so how can we equip them to recognize those things and and and to call them to do more than just show up the church, but to be plugged in and be part of a church, part of a body.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.280
Yeah.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:40.400
Remind me again, remind our listeners, lifewayresearch.com.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.039
And lifeway research slash disciple.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.480
Lifewayrresearch.com slash discipleship will give you all of this research.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:49.679
Okay.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:56.800
If you want the tool for your church, the disciples path, you can find that at lifeway.com slash disciplespath.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:56.960
Okay.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.840
It's all one word, you know, together there, disciples path.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.159
And so that gives you the free assessment that we talked about that that was all the research we did.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:10.960
That's the assessment churches can can take for their members and kind of figure out where they're at and kind of evaluate discipleship happening in their congregation.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.199
And is this high quality, good stuff?
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.840
Aaron, thank you for being with us today.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:17.519
Thank you, appreciate all you brought.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.559
Thank you.
