EOTP 007 Interview with Michelle Jean-Paul
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[00:00:00] Augy Jones: Some key questions around community. What does it mean to be a leader? What does it mean to be an authentic leader? What type of effort and energy do you need to put into change and how do you need to listen to the people that you want to impact and how much time does that take? So we got some answers today.
We're going to talk to someone from Winnipeg, Manitoba. Who's an educator, who's a leader. Who is a change agent in a very, very intersectional way. So today we're going to be talking to Michelle Jean-Paul.
Hello, everyone. Welcome once again, to Empathize Others: The Podcast. And as you know, we talk and we sent her on community and that collective work that we do, that's about other people, the energy that we give to other people. So today's guest who's hailing from Winnipeg, Manitoba, someone that I met at NABSE, which is the national association of black educators, uh, in Dallas, Texas, my first time going on.
Obviously, this is the person who has been there longer than me, but, uh, really was impressed with her energy. So today we're going to be talking with Michelle Jean-Paul, who is a principal seven years plus at seven Oaks school division in Manitoba. But multi-phase. And so I'm looking forward to the conversation, Michelle, because there's so much work you do in that intersectionality.
I think that's what comes to mind when I think of you is the intersections. So a welcome to the show
[00:01:59] Michelle: . Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:02] Augy: Yeah , it was, you're one of the people that came to my mind when we were putting us together, because we were really trying to focus on and the people that were coming to mind were who are community people.
And so I thought, you know, when I, when I first met you, I know we had a, a meeting of the Canadian. That were at NABSE. Right. And in that room was so much energy and so many people that are linked to education. So we're going to get into that because we're going to go along and talk about the, the links that you have with community, but, but let's start from just your upbringing.
And I always sent her the Podcast. It's almost like a land acknowledgement. I never really thought about it. But, um, the center yourself in what community did you. In household community. And then kind of, when did you realize that you were a community person? Okay, great question. Yeah. So I think in terms of where was I born raised and, you know, developed, it would be right here in Winnipeg treaty one territory.
[00:02:58] Michelle: Um, and. Um, I am a first-generation Canadian. My parents both immigrated from different places at different points in their lives. Um, and so Winnipeg has always been home to me despite, uh, plans to always move and explore the world that, uh, for some reason, this, this city has kind of captured, uh, me in that way.
Um, and I think a big part of it. Is the, um, the identity that comes with it and the various identities that, that find themselves in this place. So Winnipeg being the center of Canada, you know, w was intended to be this major trade hub. And, and, and I think we've seen other cities grow and develop far beyond what we are.
But I think for myself, it's home, despite the fact that it's not home to my family at all. Uh, so my mom immigrated from South America, but she's not South American. Uh, she was born on a Mennonite colony and her parents were refugees from Russia, Ukraine to Germany, and then eventually to South America. Um, and so my mom moved to Canada when she was a young girl, about nine years old.
Um, and then on my dad's side, my parents met in Haiti. Um, and my dad moved here as an adult. And so, um, for me, I always talk about who I am and those two parts of my identity are a very big part of who I am and my sense of, of community. Um, growing up, we were very entrenched in the Mennonite church. Uh, there wasn't a Haitian community really to speak of in Winnipeg and, and that has slowly grown, um, over the years.
Um, but when I think about who I am and the sense of community that I grew up within, it was always been for me, this mindfulness of, um, you know, I'll often talk about the sense of, of resistance and persistence that I think is kind of highlighted by those two, two communities that I come from.
[00:04:56] Augy: Now that that's a, that's a great start. And I've always loved what I, what I learned in the Podcast. Cause even in that you see the, the, the seeds of the intersections, right? Because you're, when you say your mom's history and her history colliding and or intersecting with your dad's history to create someone, it seems very, almost DNA, logical and spiritual that you are.
Diverse in language diverse in culture. Um, cause there's also a real indigenous sense of, of, of what you, what you stand for. Right. And so when you think about resistance and persistence, um, oftentimes communities that don't have a. They're often the communities that we have this, this, um, sense of advocacy for, right?
Like if you're in a privileged position, lot of people don't need to advocate for you. So there, the persistence piece really resonates with me and that you're probably the first person that's really centered on that rate from the beginning of the Podcast around, around that type of situation. So as you are now becoming a young adult, you are growing beyond your parents.
What were some of the things that were important to you? Or how did this resistance and persistence manifest itself as you were starting to figure out what you wanted to do?
[00:06:20] Michelle: Yeah. So for me, I think, um, I'm, I'm the third of five girls and I think we've all kind of developed our identities as multi-racial. You know, first-generation Canadians from a multi-lingual family. We've all negotiated that in very different ways. Uh, for myself, it's something that I think I was conscious of, um, and conscious of difference and, and some of the justices and injustices that can attach themselves to difference at a very young age.
Um, my dad is someone who was very actively involved in community and advocacy. Uh, in the more traditional sense. And so I think that that is something that I witnessed from him and I learned from him, um, you know, he was, he was one of the leaders in Manitoba in the anti-apartheid movement. And so there were the embargoes against south African wines and the, in the Manitoba liquor commissions.
And my dad was part of those things. And so I have very early memories of sitting around tables in rooms, um, within Manitoba's black community. That was rather small at the time. Um, and I wouldn't have necessarily been engaged in what was happening, but just recognizing the importance of community coming together and doing that kind of work.
Now on my mom's side of the family, um, I would say that she was equally. Um, active, but in a very differently. And with her, it would be more within the church community. Um, and so, you know, again, as a, as a young child and young adult, um, there was an expectation of engagement with community, um, within our family.
And that was something that I naturally gravitated towards. Um, so whether it be, you know, uh, volunteering within my church community or being youth chairperson on the black history resource center committee, um, For me engaging with those things. Like I said, first, wasn't a question of expectation in my family, because we are part of a community.
How do you, how you engage with your community to be a meaningful contributor towards it. Um, but I also think that for me, it was important in terms of my identity development. Cause you know, as you know, I come from all of these places. And how do you negotiate that? And so for me, it was a question of engaging with those different parts of my identity and understanding them better.
To create what was for myself, um, who I identified, what, uh, and so, you know, there was that evolution, I think, and growing up somewhere where I was, um, initially, um, with, with a lack of a significant black community, um, with the absence of a Haitian community, including my family, because it was, um, slowly over time that my dad's family from Haiti began immigrating here.
Uh, so there was a natural connection to my Mennonite. Um, but at the same time in an acknowledgement that I didn't fully fit there. Uh, so I think a lot of my engagement with community and a lot of my engagement with issues of equity and justice within community have been really closely tied with my work to understand myself and my place in the world.
[00:09:28] Augy: Yeah, that's an outstanding answer. It's very, it's interesting. Cause I think about, we have some similarities. My dad was a civil rights activist and lawyer and my mom wrote for the paper and was very, almost the backbone of the work that's supposed to. My dad was the front four. And, and, and so similar to you, there was a lot of modeling that was going on from a young age of what it looks like to not just come home.
At supper time and be home. You know, like my parents were, were there were people coming in the house, they were going out to meetings. They were organizing and being a part of these socially active, um, initiatives that became, as you said, some of them, I was involved with some of them. I was just a little kid just sitting there, but, but it was being modeled that this was important.
And so similar to you that that's just, I went into. That that direction. Another thing I love about what you said is, is figuring out who you were, because I know the poet Kahlil Gibran talks about, you know, the almighty loves the bow just as much as the arrow. And oftentimes we go further than our parents, right.
And with their guidance, but it's all one energy. And so you've created and carved out a space of advocacy. That's different than your dad, different than your mind. But similar. Right. But, but it's the way that you see it. Um, so you, you are now obviously, and we'll have that in the biography or you're an educational professional.
Um, you're working, you're almost finished your PhD in education. You've been a principal. You're, you're passionate about that. W when you were in school, did you know that you were going to get in education and teaching and was that something, or how did that come about that you went into the education stream?
[00:11:22] Michelle: Yeah, so I think like most children, at some point in time, I was going to be a teacher and I think, you know, we, we gravitate towards the professions that we know. Um, but. It was always deeper for me. Um, my dad is a retired teacher and so, you know, most kids play school, but I was, you know, using my dad's spelling books and differentiating my lesson plans when I was playing with the neighborhood kids already.
Um, so for me, it's really a question of vocation and calling. Um, there was never a question in my mind that I wanted to be an educator and I think I, um, There were moments along the way where people tried to convince me to do other things. There were moments where I questioned that decision for myself.
And I mean, even just the other day, I was having a conversation with a friend and it was, you know, if, if you, if you could go back in time and change one decision that you made, knowing what you know now, what would you change? And, and on one hand I had said, I think if I knew that I had the potential to, to succeed, um, in unfamiliar territory, maybe I would have taken a different risk professionally, but at the same time, I truly believe that my work as an educator, uh, is, is my vocation.
And so I can't imagine doing anything other than, um, so for me really, it wasn't a question of becoming an educator. It was the path that I had always seen myself on. Um, one of the reasons why I questioned that experience was because of. Um, experiences that my dad had. Um, and so I think that that was one of the things that, um, you know, my dad faced a lot of, a lot of challenges in his career.
Um, and one of the things I was able to critically reflect upon was the fact that these challenges that he faced. Um, not that I was immune to them, but my, the differences in my identity in terms of me having been born and raised and schooled here and having been socialized within this environment, uh, speaking with the same accent as my peers, as opposed to a different one, uh, were things that were going to advantage me in ways that my dad did not have access to.
Um, and then also the work that my dad and his generation of black educators. Uh, within this city, within this province, um, it's, it's the doors that they opened that allowed me to navigate, um, within my career with much more ease than my dad was able to. Um, so I think those for me are some of the things that when I think about my professional path, um, you know, it was never a question that this is what I wanted to do.
And even when I was challenged on that by people like my dad by people. Some of my high school teachers who, you know, um, I think due to the challenges that they saw in the system thought, perhaps, you know, I could use my strength in another area. Um, regardless of those things, this was always something that I knew, um, was important for me to do.
And, uh, and, uh, not just because I thought, okay, this is something that I could do well, or it's a clear path because I'm familiar with it. But, um, largely because of. I felt like this is a way that I can serve within my community and create meaningful change, um, on a, on a greater level. And that's probably why I never stayed just in the classroom, but have continued to pursue my education and, and, you know, have found myself in leadership positions within education, uh, to try to make a greater impact on this.
[00:14:56] Augy: Yeah, that, that that's again, you're making me think about these synchronicities that I didn't think about before, but I always saw education as a community engagement activity. Right. So if you think about it's compulsory that all young children have to come to school. So if you want to make positive social change, It can happen at schools within, especially when you have teachers engaged administration engaged, it's a very collective, um, uh, job, because if you think about if you were a financial advisor or a lawyer, or even a doctor, you know, and I often say that like, those are important pieces of the community, but the most, every day, Monday, well, let's say Monday to Friday, Seven hours a day with every single kid in the community it's teachers.
Right. And so, and I don't know if all teachers see that. And so I'll throw this out to you. It's more like a question because it is, do you find that like, because I find it's this, this, um, tension between the individual thinking teacher and the collect or individual thinking educator and the collective thinking. What do you think of that? What do you think of that observation?
[00:16:08] Michelle: Yeah, I definitely think that there is that difference that I think part of it is the approach that. That you take to the work? Um, so again, for me becoming an educator was a question of an act of service. Um, and it is a way that I see myself practicing activism and advocacy.
And so, you know, again, there's a certain tension that people might see working within the system. People who think kind of more individually. Um, and I would say that that exists within any system. Um, you know, not just education, but I think there are the teachers who, um, don't necessarily see education as a political act.
Um, and those might be people who don't recognize the importance of the collective and the power of the work that we do. Um, and so see it as more of an individual. Um, you know, it's a job, right? It's something I come, I teach kids. I feel good about myself. I do some good work, maybe, um, as opposed to people who see education as an opportunity to move the collective thinking within our society forward.
So I think, I think, yeah, there are different mentalities about, about the work. And I would definitely say that the mentality that I carry is one of more of a collective and, and, and teaching as a political.
[00:17:28] Augy: So as you are the on-site leader, uh, you're the principal of your school. And so let's, I'm going to talk about a micro-community here.
So when you first started and you were the leader of that community, what was your vision for that school? And can you talk about some of the growth or maybe, I don't know what, but over seven years, From a community perspective and you being the leader of that community, what did you envision for, to serve students? And are you there now and talk about that growth over seven years?
[00:18:04] Michelle: Yeah, definitely. So, you know, I had the opportunity of, of, you know, trying out my chops as a leader, you know, as a vice principal in a couple of different settings. And then as a principal in a smaller school before arriving at a larger one.
Uh, you know, so a little bit of trial and error. And one of the things that I think is important as a leader is to practice humility and recognize, um, you know, position myself as a learner and all that I do. And, and so I think, you know, one of, one of the things, the community that I'm currently principal of, so we've taken half of an existing school community that I worked with in a number of years, and we just started a brand new school.
This this past fall. And so one of the things that I've recognized in my work is the importance of, um, the importance of authentically leading. And so by that, I mean, you know, I'm not someone who necessarily pores my personal life into my work because I still see it as my work. Um, but I still have human connections.
Right. And so it's creating that balance of humanity within the workplace for me, um, you know, while still maintaining my position as, as a leader, recognizing the hierarchy that exists within the system. Uh, because I think oftentimes, um, in my experience, people who might have more of an activist approach to education, you know, try to deny the fact that hierarchy exists.
And, you know, I've, I've mentored and worked with different educators where that's kind of been a conversation around our own. How do you set the tone around the work that you do? And so I think I'm cognizant of my position and the authority that comes with the fact that I have a title. I have a salary, I have an office, um, that the other people in the building are not privy to.
And so I recognize the additional weight that my voice carries, uh, in the work that I do. So one of the things that I've recognized in terms of, of, um, The important role that I play as a leader in creating a sense of community within my building is the care that I offer to the people within my community.
And so I've, I've done some framing of this with, with my current staff, um, around the notion of hospitality. Um, and I think it's Nel Noddings' work that we've kind of taken a variation of and, and I've, I've infused, you know, my, my critical race theoretical perspectives into that. Um, but that whole notion of hospitality, how do we want people to feel when they enter this community?
Whether it be parents, whether it be students, whether it be staff members. Um, and so with, we use that notion of hospitality that we want people to feel welcome within the space that they're in. What are the things that we need to question within our own practices to create that kind of welcoming space that people want to come to.
And so when we use more of a critical lens or critical race lens to that kind of thinking, it's not just about having a warm, fuzzy environment where, you know, we smile and we're friendly to people it's about, do people see themselves reflected and represented within the work that we do? And how do we respond when they don't.
And so, you know, I'll give a concrete example, you know, we're, we're a school community that, um, again, I, I lead by what I do. And so I will publicly, you know, uh, on our, our school, social media and conversations with parents, um, highlight issues that within other schools or perhaps school settings might be seen as sensitive topics.
But for me, it's important to normalize those things. Cause I think of, again, my experience. Um, as a young black girl going to school and not seeing myself represented anywhere. And when I did encounter instances of racism, I didn't feel like I could voice that or share that because I felt like perhaps I had done something wrong.
And so that's something that I'm conscious of and don't want to replicate in the schools that I lead. Um, so, you know, we're a school where, uh, we try to normalize conversations around difference. And so yes, we will do different celebrations and recognition because I think that. Those things are important to draw attention to, um, the unbalanced representation that a lot of groups have within our school system.
Um, but one of the things I'm mindful of is the schools that I serve. My identity is not the dominant identity of those schools. So it doesn't like, you know, when I'm, when I'm leading for equity, I start by leading. Um, and talking about the people who are in our community and the people that we are serving and are they represented?
How might they feel when they walk into our school community? Do they feel welcomed? Do they feel acknowledged? They do. They feel a sense of belonging? Um, and so that's something that we work continuously as, um, a school community towards. Um, but you know, just this past school year, there was an instance when something was posted on social media and it was a parent who felt as though their child had experienced
uh, racism, uh, within a group of, of students. And so right away, it was this outrage from our staff. And, you know, other parents upset that this parent would say that about our school because our school in, within our classrooms, you know, we work at this stuff so hard and it's ingrained into our way of being, I kind of said to, to the staff that was involved in the situation, I said 'Slow down here, what is
our goal? Our goal is to create an inclusive school environment.' So this family is telling us that they don't feel included. So with our goal is to genuinely create an inclusive school environment into someone that's telling us we're not doing a good job. Why are we getting defensive? Is this not for us, a learning opportunity?
Shouldn't our response be 'help me understand how we can be better.' And so, you know, engaging in those kinds of conversations with the staff where we don't see those things as conflict, we see those things as opportunities for growth and development, uh, for me as an important way of how I can lead a community in a way, uh, that is truly about community.
And I think for me, it's been a question of trial and error, uh, and also a question of, you know, this is now my. 13th 14th year as a school leader. Um, you know, so it's also a question of having developed a skill set and a level of confidence, uh, in the work that I'm doing to be able to engage in these kinds of conversations and not worry about.
You know, should I have said that? Should I not have said that? Uh, you know, and I'm at a point where yeah, I can back myself up with the practical and the theoretical and, and you know, the policy aspects and here's the research. Um, and so supporting my staff and my school community in that way. And again, centering it on that notion of hospitality.
These are the pieces that we're welcoming into our school on a daily basis. Do we want any of them to feel as though they don't belong? Um, and I think even when dealing with people who perhaps are uncomfortable with some of the others that we are working to include and support, um, when, when you frame it in that way, like, are you okay knowing that we have this family, this child who doesn't feel like they can fully be present with, on our community, because we're S we're not acknowledging who they are and that who they are belong here.
Most people would be hard pressed to say, no, I'm okay with, with intentional exclusion of children, you know? And so I think framing the conversation in that way for me, has made it accessible and understandable. Uh, and I'm, I'm blessed to work within a school community where the staff, the students, the, the, the family understand and share these values.
And so, you know, I've had conversations with families too, over the years where they've had to learn to get comfortable. With some of the discomfort alongside. So, yeah, that's I think hopefully that answered that question.
[00:25:51] Augy: Well, you answered it well on so many things, I'm trying to do my, my memory thing because there's so many things.
First thing that I really love what you said was the Nel Noddings' speech, because, you know, I referenced, um, Noddings work in, in my thesis. And one of the things that wasn't relational and how dare Nel Noddings talk about caring in school, you don't like, you're not caring, it's a curriculum place, but yet that relational piece is the hospitality that you speak about.
And so, um, in The, so there's a couple of links that you've made already before. I want to serve and that got me into education to serve. And so our quote unquote clients, and sometimes we don't want to use students as clients, but sometimes I do like to use that word because when a client comes into a store, That store is trying to serve that client AKA get their money.
Um, when we have students is often been this view in education that it's about the teachers, it's about the parents. It's about the administrators. It's about these superintendents, but very seldom. Is it truly about. And so if it is about the students, then that hospitality piece really works like, and it's also universally designed because whether you're Mennonites or first nations or autistic, or in a wheelchair or LGBTQ plus, or of African ancestry, it doesn't matter.
What I found is that that hospitality that you speak of is the key because parents get upset when it's not hospitable. It doesn't matter in which way. And what the reasons are they're sending their child to school. As we know that phrase in locals, parent is right, like during the school year hours, you're supposed to be the parents.
And so are you behaving in a caring, supportive, hospitable understanding culturally responsive way? And I do have to say Michelle, it seems as though there's a shift in culture because in the seventies and eighties, that was not. That like you could barely even talk to a teacher about caring or being hospitable or a bit like teachers would have chose to do that individually, but it was not part of the job.
Now. It is a job and there's this real culture shift. Even with some teachers leaving the profession because they don't want to, um, make that. And to getting to know parents into getting to know students into serving students. So I thought you gave a great answer around some of the shifts that are in education.
And the last thing I take, because I want to talk less and have you talk more, is. And, and you've already spoken and I believe this leadership is being in the, making the decisions that are unpopular leadership is being in the messy complexity. It's not about being on a pedestal, I'm the leader. It's not that in fact, you are probably going to make decisions that are going to bounce back on you, but their leadership decision, their leadership.
So how do you see. Um, I mean the community piece is, are the students are the parents who, when we talk about first voice, how do you see first voice linking to your leadership as an educator?
[00:29:07] Michelle: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, one of the things that you just talked about too, around that notion of caring and caring in schools, um, I think, I think one of the reasons why some educators and even families are resistant to it is they don't is they assume that caring is warm and fluffy and they don't recognize that academic rigor can be associated with caring.
And I think too, when I was an assistant principal in a, in a high school, you know, and I come down on a kid for something, oh, you're just doing this. Cause you don't like me. And you know, my line was always, this is actually what a caring adult looks like. Like I get paid regardless of whether you come to class or not.
So me engaging with you in this struggle where you're rolling your eyes and like swearing at me under your breath, like this isn't enjoyable for me. So this is actually carrying me, wanting you to get to school, me wanting you to be successful within the system. This is a form of caring, right. But also challenging the system so that more kids can be successful with it.
And there's also a form of caring. So I think that's one of the things that, what you said previously that I want to build. Um, but yeah, that's the first voice. I think, I think for myself, I'm always working to create more space for voice, um, and for the voice of our students, for the voice of our communities that are underrepresented.
Um, and for me, it, it ties back to that notion of caring and, and caring in the leadership and community and the leadership that I provide in that. Am I willing to give up space to create. For those voices. And what does that look like? Um, and so that's something that I think, you know, is a challenge because we're busy places as a school.
Um, I think that it, it relies on trust and relationship. Um, you know, cause I think, I think of, you know, the, one of the previous school communities that I worked in, um, and you know, for me, It, it took meeting the community where they were at and, you know, um, taking the time out of my building to go once a month and have coffee I'm at a housing complex that, you know, had some of our most, um, underserved families, uh, that were most neglected by not just the educational institution, but all historical institutions.
Um, and so for me, it was about what do we prioritize. If we want to make those shifts, how do we create spaces for those voices? Um, and how do we do it? Not from the lens of the institution, which tends to cater to, you know, people who are privileged, but how do we adjust the way we function as an institution so that those people feel as though a, we actually are doing what we're doing with authenticity.
Um, We're not just speaking with them to speak with them, to say, like, look what we've done, but there's actually the listening. Isn't just over going to sit and listen, but it's actually going to create change within the system and within the institution. And so I think for me, a lot of that is relationally based.
Um, and I think oftentimes in leadership positions, you know, you don't know how long you're going to be at a school. And so I want to create the most impact as quickly as possible. Um, but when you're inauthentic in the work that you do, when, when it's superficial, um, I think there's a less of a likelihood that people will buy into that type of work.
Um, because you know, I can, I can go and I can have coffee once and then go and say, well, I had coffee with those, with those indigenous families. And so, you know, now that I've had coffee with them, I think I know what their needs are. Um, so
[00:32:43] Augy: it's checked the checked box you've done it.
And I think,
[00:32:46] Michelle: I think one of the things that I've recognized within the span of this last school year in particular, um, and I think, you know, everyone attributes it to the murder of George Floyd. Um, but I think those of us who are in the know have known that that was the straw on the camel's back. That for some reason, raise the collective consciousness that many of us have been, you know, saying these things exist and have existed. Not just South of us, but here in Canada as well for a long time.
Uh, but I feel as though a lot of the approaches and part of it is because, you know, like you talked about it's messy, it's dirty, it's complicated. And there are all sorts of nuances to leading and learning within, within the framework of anti-racism or inclusivity and all of those pieces. Um, but I think that there's this urge to like, let's.
Spend one school year and check the boxes and talk about the things that we've done. Um, but anyone who's truly engaged in systems work understands that if we really want to do this work, if we really want to create a hospitable School system. It's not going to be done in a school year. Um, and it's not going to be done without taking a whole lot of time to sit and listen and create incremental changes within the system so that the people who have been neglected, underserved, abused by the system actually feel as though they have a space to voice, um, Themselves and create change within that system.
So I think for me, I think, you know, there's, there's a lack of recognition about the deep work that's required to create. Um, Community within a sense of school. Um, and, and when I talk about community again, I'm not just talking about that. Oh, we're friendly. This is peaceful, kindness, that kind of thing.
I'm talking about that deep, meaningful, we're challenging those ugly pieces that we as a system perpetuate because of what we're part of a, and we work to get better at that. So I think in terms of creating space,
[00:34:51] Augy: You're right when you're talking about authenticity too, because we often bring up authentic versus inauthentic.
And when people go, what, what do you mean by that? I mean, I think when we often say you don't get to call yourself an ally, the community that you are supporting when you've done it enough and you've been authentic enough, they get to call you an ally. And so that's authentic work is when the person who is being impacted.
Realizes and recognizes the change that you've helped make in their lives. And there's another piece that I want to bring out that, that, that is the flip side that I'm finding in the same work that you're doing. I'm doing that in Nova Scotia is the depth of the conversation is also self-reflection. So, so if we have a meeting where people are going to be talking and thinking about bias, Privilege and status quo and blind spots.
That's not your regular meeting. Right? So there's time. And we look at complexity theory of how long it takes to change culture. Um, there's some other work that it's not. So we have time where we have to do first voice and slow down and listen to community and all of that that's time and deep. But then there's another piece that's deep and heavy too.
And it's the people that are the servants doing the reflection. Otherwise it's inauthentic because if I don't own my male privilege, if I don't own my Anglophone privilege, if I don't own my able-bodied privilege, then I can't authentically hear the voices of people who say that they're underprivileged.
Right? So the depth of, of time that we need for culture shift, um, is, is two fold. It's not only listening, but it's self-reflecting.
[00:36:32] Michelle: Yeah, definitely. I think, I think unfortunately too many educators and educational leaders think that, you know, anti-racism, you know, or other anti-biased education is just another form of.
Right, but you can't go to a series of three may, can take workshops like you would for, you know, this latest numeracy trend or, or the daily five, you know, or whatever, and, and implement it because it's about recognizing, um, systemic issues. And, um, I just, you know, I feel like too often there is a false sense of urgency that leads to superficial change that.
I actually don't accomplish anything and just bury the problem deeper because people are able to then say, oh, well, no, we dealt with it. Like we did, we did that year and we put a policy in place and, you know, we we've talked about it, but how we challenged, you know, the, the, the things that run more deeply within our system, um, in terms of who is running it, who's making decisions.
I mean, I've, I've been part of meetings that are supposed to be about creating inclusive environments and the very people. That we are seeking to better represent through these initiatives. Their voices are being ignored because it doesn't fit the timeline. Um, and so for me, those are frustrations that come with the way the system functions, um, and, and the inauthentic way that it often addresses things.
And I don't know that it's always, I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. Um, and I think most people who get into education have good intentions. Um, but I think there's a lack of understanding, but also, um, going back to one of the things that I talked about earlier, a lack of a vulnerability in leadership, um, and a lack of willingness to say, I may not know what.
What I'm doing here. Um, and I, I, or I'm maybe out of my depth here, or I might be so trapped in my identity that I'm blinded and I don't even know what the blind spots are. Um, and I'm too uncomfortable to address them. Right. And so I think those are all things like, I think of, you know, even, even notions of language.
So I, I work in a French immersion midyear now. Uh, but the previous school that I worked in was a dual track school. So we had the English program and the French immersion program. And the history of French immersion across Manitoba, but I'll speak specific across Canada, but I'll speak specifically to Manitoba.
Um, French immersion oftentimes was viewed as a program for the privileged. And so you had students who already were excelling academically within the system and families would choose it as another. Um, as another challenge, academic challenge for their child. And so that's something that I think has changed over time, you know, um, as parents would become savvy and, you know, sometimes putting your child in immersion means that you qualify for busing for free, that you wouldn't otherwise sometimes putting your child in immersion means.
Um, the demographic of the school is going to be slightly different. And so you might see fewer behavioral needs, um, you know, or, or a more stable, um, socioec, economic, um, demographic within the population. And so that's slowly changed. Um, but so part of the conversation we got into as a school community is what is our identity as a dual-track school?
Because oftentimes it's, you know, you're an English school with the French immersion program as opposed to a dual track school. So we started getting into conversations because our school community at that time was probably about a third south Asian, a third Filipino. Um, and then the other third was a smattering of various identities
um, and all of these students are in the school that is supposed to be instructing and the two official languages. Um, you know, so we started talking about how do we value language? How do we value, um, the identity of our school as a dual track school? What message are we sending when we privilege English over even just French, which is our second language of instruction and both being colonial, languages
um, and how does our response to kids who aren't engaging with those languages? You know, relationally, you know, the two kids who are speaking in Punjabi on the playground instead of English or French, how does, how we respond to that, um, enforce or, um, our, our identity as a school and is that who we want to be.
Right. And so it took time to kind of wrestle with those things and it took time to develop this new identity and understanding. The importance of language. Um, because again, I think too many people travel with blind spots and they don't recognize that. Okay. So it's problematic that we're saying everything happens in English except for the French immersion kids, but that's only within the classroom that that happens.
And they don't recognize that the impact of that kind of. Tunnel vision thinking. Um, it's not just about French in English, but it also demonstrates the hierarchy and the devaluing of other linguistic identities within our school community. So I think, you know, again like that, couldn't have been a half day workshop with a staff that had to be conversation that came up again and again and again, um, and that had to look like.
What are the different entry points that we can have to create more of a systemic change around the way we think about these things. Um, but if, if you don't recognize the complexity of creating systemic change within a system as an educator, um, you think that, oh, I read a book that, you know, talks about language in there.
I've done it. You know, all we had our, we had our GSE celebration, so we've done it. Um, and I think that approach, um, creates a false sense of allyship because we're not risking much in doing it. In fact, we're doing it. Um, whether it's consciously or unconsciously to maintain dominance within the system, you know, so it's, I'll give you a crumb so that I can keep things the way they.
[00:42:32] Augy: Yeah. And, and the investment piece, how much are you willing to invest in, uh, and problems that have been decades, if not, you know, hundreds of years, but yet you want to spend one PD day or two PD days. So that complexity is there. And so I do want to, I want to thank you so much for the rich conversations challenge and, and you add to our national focus around hearing.
I was hearing about Winnipeg hearing about, um, uh, some of the there's a lot of similarities, but there's also differences. And you explaining that school system. And lastly, I want to thank you as, as, as an educator in a community. So I met you in a community setting, um, at NABSE, um, again, national association of black school educators, and there's something healing about.
Accessing that community. So I want to thank you for being a part of that community and continuing to be connected, continue to be doing the work that you're doing and know that you have a support on the east coast. You know, there's lots of Scotians that you've met, who are connected to you through education.
And I would be one of them as well, and you're doing a fantastic job. Continue to do and work on behalf of the students and being vulnerable, but being what leadership really looks like. And so I applaud you for that, and really thank you for your time.
[00:43:53] Michelle: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Empathize Others: The Podcast ©2021 Strongcoffee Media Group - Horizon Line Films Ltd.
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[00:00:00] Augy Jones: Some key questions around community. What does it mean to be a leader? What does it mean to be an authentic leader? What type of effort and energy do you need to put into change and how do you need to listen to the people that you want to impact and how much time does that take? So we got some answers today.
We're going to talk to someone from Winnipeg, Manitoba. Who's an educator, who's a leader. Who is a change agent in a very, very intersectional way. So today we're going to be talking to Michelle Jean-Paul.
Hello, everyone. Welcome once again, to Empathize Others: The Podcast. And as you know, we talk and we sent her on community and that collective work that we do, that's about other people, the energy that we give to other people. So today's guest who's hailing from Winnipeg, Manitoba, someone that I met at NABSE, which is the national association of black educators, uh, in Dallas, Texas, my first time going on.
Obviously, this is the person who has been there longer than me, but, uh, really was impressed with her energy. So today we're going to be talking with Michelle Jean-Paul, who is a principal seven years plus at seven Oaks school division in Manitoba. But multi-phase. And so I'm looking forward to the conversation, Michelle, because there's so much work you do in that intersectionality.
I think that's what comes to mind when I think of you is the intersections. So a welcome to the show
[00:01:59] Michelle: . Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:02] Augy: Yeah , it was, you're one of the people that came to my mind when we were putting us together, because we were really trying to focus on and the people that were coming to mind were who are community people.
And so I thought, you know, when I, when I first met you, I know we had a, a meeting of the Canadian. That were at NABSE. Right. And in that room was so much energy and so many people that are linked to education. So we're going to get into that because we're going to go along and talk about the, the links that you have with community, but, but let's start from just your upbringing.
And I always sent her the Podcast. It's almost like a land acknowledgement. I never really thought about it. But, um, the center yourself in what community did you. In household community. And then kind of, when did you realize that you were a community person? Okay, great question. Yeah. So I think in terms of where was I born raised and, you know, developed, it would be right here in Winnipeg treaty one territory.
[00:02:58] Michelle: Um, and. Um, I am a first-generation Canadian. My parents both immigrated from different places at different points in their lives. Um, and so Winnipeg has always been home to me despite, uh, plans to always move and explore the world that, uh, for some reason, this, this city has kind of captured, uh, me in that way.
Um, and I think a big part of it. Is the, um, the identity that comes with it and the various identities that, that find themselves in this place. So Winnipeg being the center of Canada, you know, w was intended to be this major trade hub. And, and, and I think we've seen other cities grow and develop far beyond what we are.
But I think for myself, it's home, despite the fact that it's not home to my family at all. Uh, so my mom immigrated from South America, but she's not South American. Uh, she was born on a Mennonite colony and her parents were refugees from Russia, Ukraine to Germany, and then eventually to South America. Um, and so my mom moved to Canada when she was a young girl, about nine years old.
Um, and then on my dad's side, my parents met in Haiti. Um, and my dad moved here as an adult. And so, um, for me, I always talk about who I am and those two parts of my identity are a very big part of who I am and my sense of, of community. Um, growing up, we were very entrenched in the Mennonite church. Uh, there wasn't a Haitian community really to speak of in Winnipeg and, and that has slowly grown, um, over the years.
Um, but when I think about who I am and the sense of community that I grew up within, it was always been for me, this mindfulness of, um, you know, I'll often talk about the sense of, of resistance and persistence that I think is kind of highlighted by those two, two communities that I come from.
[00:04:56] Augy: Now that that's a, that's a great start. And I've always loved what I, what I learned in the Podcast. Cause even in that you see the, the, the seeds of the intersections, right? Because you're, when you say your mom's history and her history colliding and or intersecting with your dad's history to create someone, it seems very, almost DNA, logical and spiritual that you are.
Diverse in language diverse in culture. Um, cause there's also a real indigenous sense of, of, of what you, what you stand for. Right. And so when you think about resistance and persistence, um, oftentimes communities that don't have a. They're often the communities that we have this, this, um, sense of advocacy for, right?
Like if you're in a privileged position, lot of people don't need to advocate for you. So there, the persistence piece really resonates with me and that you're probably the first person that's really centered on that rate from the beginning of the Podcast around, around that type of situation. So as you are now becoming a young adult, you are growing beyond your parents.
What were some of the things that were important to you? Or how did this resistance and persistence manifest itself as you were starting to figure out what you wanted to do?
[00:06:20] Michelle: Yeah. So for me, I think, um, I'm, I'm the third of five girls and I think we've all kind of developed our identities as multi-racial. You know, first-generation Canadians from a multi-lingual family. We've all negotiated that in very different ways. Uh, for myself, it's something that I think I was conscious of, um, and conscious of difference and, and some of the justices and injustices that can attach themselves to difference at a very young age.
Um, my dad is someone who was very actively involved in community and advocacy. Uh, in the more traditional sense. And so I think that that is something that I witnessed from him and I learned from him, um, you know, he was, he was one of the leaders in Manitoba in the anti-apartheid movement. And so there were the embargoes against south African wines and the, in the Manitoba liquor commissions.
And my dad was part of those things. And so I have very early memories of sitting around tables in rooms, um, within Manitoba's black community. That was rather small at the time. Um, and I wouldn't have necessarily been engaged in what was happening, but just recognizing the importance of community coming together and doing that kind of work.
Now on my mom's side of the family, um, I would say that she was equally. Um, active, but in a very differently. And with her, it would be more within the church community. Um, and so, you know, again, as a, as a young child and young adult, um, there was an expectation of engagement with community, um, within our family.
And that was something that I naturally gravitated towards. Um, so whether it be, you know, uh, volunteering within my church community or being youth chairperson on the black history resource center committee, um, For me engaging with those things. Like I said, first, wasn't a question of expectation in my family, because we are part of a community.
How do you, how you engage with your community to be a meaningful contributor towards it. Um, but I also think that for me, it was important in terms of my identity development. Cause you know, as you know, I come from all of these places. And how do you negotiate that? And so for me, it was a question of engaging with those different parts of my identity and understanding them better.
To create what was for myself, um, who I identified, what, uh, and so, you know, there was that evolution, I think, and growing up somewhere where I was, um, initially, um, with, with a lack of a significant black community, um, with the absence of a Haitian community, including my family, because it was, um, slowly over time that my dad's family from Haiti began immigrating here.
Uh, so there was a natural connection to my Mennonite. Um, but at the same time in an acknowledgement that I didn't fully fit there. Uh, so I think a lot of my engagement with community and a lot of my engagement with issues of equity and justice within community have been really closely tied with my work to understand myself and my place in the world.
[00:09:28] Augy: Yeah, that's an outstanding answer. It's very, it's interesting. Cause I think about, we have some similarities. My dad was a civil rights activist and lawyer and my mom wrote for the paper and was very, almost the backbone of the work that's supposed to. My dad was the front four. And, and, and so similar to you, there was a lot of modeling that was going on from a young age of what it looks like to not just come home.
At supper time and be home. You know, like my parents were, were there were people coming in the house, they were going out to meetings. They were organizing and being a part of these socially active, um, initiatives that became, as you said, some of them, I was involved with some of them. I was just a little kid just sitting there, but, but it was being modeled that this was important.
And so similar to you that that's just, I went into. That that direction. Another thing I love about what you said is, is figuring out who you were, because I know the poet Kahlil Gibran talks about, you know, the almighty loves the bow just as much as the arrow. And oftentimes we go further than our parents, right.
And with their guidance, but it's all one energy. And so you've created and carved out a space of advocacy. That's different than your dad, different than your mind. But similar. Right. But, but it's the way that you see it. Um, so you, you are now obviously, and we'll have that in the biography or you're an educational professional.
Um, you're working, you're almost finished your PhD in education. You've been a principal. You're, you're passionate about that. W when you were in school, did you know that you were going to get in education and teaching and was that something, or how did that come about that you went into the education stream?
[00:11:22] Michelle: Yeah, so I think like most children, at some point in time, I was going to be a teacher and I think, you know, we, we gravitate towards the professions that we know. Um, but. It was always deeper for me. Um, my dad is a retired teacher and so, you know, most kids play school, but I was, you know, using my dad's spelling books and differentiating my lesson plans when I was playing with the neighborhood kids already.
Um, so for me, it's really a question of vocation and calling. Um, there was never a question in my mind that I wanted to be an educator and I think I, um, There were moments along the way where people tried to convince me to do other things. There were moments where I questioned that decision for myself.
And I mean, even just the other day, I was having a conversation with a friend and it was, you know, if, if you, if you could go back in time and change one decision that you made, knowing what you know now, what would you change? And, and on one hand I had said, I think if I knew that I had the potential to, to succeed, um, in unfamiliar territory, maybe I would have taken a different risk professionally, but at the same time, I truly believe that my work as an educator, uh, is, is my vocation.
And so I can't imagine doing anything other than, um, so for me really, it wasn't a question of becoming an educator. It was the path that I had always seen myself on. Um, one of the reasons why I questioned that experience was because of. Um, experiences that my dad had. Um, and so I think that that was one of the things that, um, you know, my dad faced a lot of, a lot of challenges in his career.
Um, and one of the things I was able to critically reflect upon was the fact that these challenges that he faced. Um, not that I was immune to them, but my, the differences in my identity in terms of me having been born and raised and schooled here and having been socialized within this environment, uh, speaking with the same accent as my peers, as opposed to a different one, uh, were things that were going to advantage me in ways that my dad did not have access to.
Um, and then also the work that my dad and his generation of black educators. Uh, within this city, within this province, um, it's, it's the doors that they opened that allowed me to navigate, um, within my career with much more ease than my dad was able to. Um, so I think those for me are some of the things that when I think about my professional path, um, you know, it was never a question that this is what I wanted to do.
And even when I was challenged on that by people like my dad by people. Some of my high school teachers who, you know, um, I think due to the challenges that they saw in the system thought, perhaps, you know, I could use my strength in another area. Um, regardless of those things, this was always something that I knew, um, was important for me to do.
And, uh, and, uh, not just because I thought, okay, this is something that I could do well, or it's a clear path because I'm familiar with it. But, um, largely because of. I felt like this is a way that I can serve within my community and create meaningful change, um, on a, on a greater level. And that's probably why I never stayed just in the classroom, but have continued to pursue my education and, and, you know, have found myself in leadership positions within education, uh, to try to make a greater impact on this.
[00:14:56] Augy: Yeah, that, that that's again, you're making me think about these synchronicities that I didn't think about before, but I always saw education as a community engagement activity. Right. So if you think about it's compulsory that all young children have to come to school. So if you want to make positive social change, It can happen at schools within, especially when you have teachers engaged administration engaged, it's a very collective, um, uh, job, because if you think about if you were a financial advisor or a lawyer, or even a doctor, you know, and I often say that like, those are important pieces of the community, but the most, every day, Monday, well, let's say Monday to Friday, Seven hours a day with every single kid in the community it's teachers.
Right. And so, and I don't know if all teachers see that. And so I'll throw this out to you. It's more like a question because it is, do you find that like, because I find it's this, this, um, tension between the individual thinking teacher and the collect or individual thinking educator and the collective thinking. What do you think of that? What do you think of that observation?
[00:16:08] Michelle: Yeah, I definitely think that there is that difference that I think part of it is the approach that. That you take to the work? Um, so again, for me becoming an educator was a question of an act of service. Um, and it is a way that I see myself practicing activism and advocacy.
And so, you know, again, there's a certain tension that people might see working within the system. People who think kind of more individually. Um, and I would say that that exists within any system. Um, you know, not just education, but I think there are the teachers who, um, don't necessarily see education as a political act.
Um, and those might be people who don't recognize the importance of the collective and the power of the work that we do. Um, and so see it as more of an individual. Um, you know, it's a job, right? It's something I come, I teach kids. I feel good about myself. I do some good work, maybe, um, as opposed to people who see education as an opportunity to move the collective thinking within our society forward.
So I think, I think, yeah, there are different mentalities about, about the work. And I would definitely say that the mentality that I carry is one of more of a collective and, and, and teaching as a political.
[00:17:28] Augy: So as you are the on-site leader, uh, you're the principal of your school. And so let's, I'm going to talk about a micro-community here.
So when you first started and you were the leader of that community, what was your vision for that school? And can you talk about some of the growth or maybe, I don't know what, but over seven years, From a community perspective and you being the leader of that community, what did you envision for, to serve students? And are you there now and talk about that growth over seven years?
[00:18:04] Michelle: Yeah, definitely. So, you know, I had the opportunity of, of, you know, trying out my chops as a leader, you know, as a vice principal in a couple of different settings. And then as a principal in a smaller school before arriving at a larger one.
Uh, you know, so a little bit of trial and error. And one of the things that I think is important as a leader is to practice humility and recognize, um, you know, position myself as a learner and all that I do. And, and so I think, you know, one of, one of the things, the community that I'm currently principal of, so we've taken half of an existing school community that I worked with in a number of years, and we just started a brand new school.
This this past fall. And so one of the things that I've recognized in my work is the importance of, um, the importance of authentically leading. And so by that, I mean, you know, I'm not someone who necessarily pores my personal life into my work because I still see it as my work. Um, but I still have human connections.
Right. And so it's creating that balance of humanity within the workplace for me, um, you know, while still maintaining my position as, as a leader, recognizing the hierarchy that exists within the system. Uh, because I think oftentimes, um, in my experience, people who might have more of an activist approach to education, you know, try to deny the fact that hierarchy exists.
And, you know, I've, I've mentored and worked with different educators where that's kind of been a conversation around our own. How do you set the tone around the work that you do? And so I think I'm cognizant of my position and the authority that comes with the fact that I have a title. I have a salary, I have an office, um, that the other people in the building are not privy to.
And so I recognize the additional weight that my voice carries, uh, in the work that I do. So one of the things that I've recognized in terms of, of, um, The important role that I play as a leader in creating a sense of community within my building is the care that I offer to the people within my community.
And so I've, I've done some framing of this with, with my current staff, um, around the notion of hospitality. Um, and I think it's Nel Noddings' work that we've kind of taken a variation of and, and I've, I've infused, you know, my, my critical race theoretical perspectives into that. Um, but that whole notion of hospitality, how do we want people to feel when they enter this community?
Whether it be parents, whether it be students, whether it be staff members. Um, and so with, we use that notion of hospitality that we want people to feel welcome within the space that they're in. What are the things that we need to question within our own practices to create that kind of welcoming space that people want to come to.
And so when we use more of a critical lens or critical race lens to that kind of thinking, it's not just about having a warm, fuzzy environment where, you know, we smile and we're friendly to people it's about, do people see themselves reflected and represented within the work that we do? And how do we respond when they don't.
And so, you know, I'll give a concrete example, you know, we're, we're a school community that, um, again, I, I lead by what I do. And so I will publicly, you know, uh, on our, our school, social media and conversations with parents, um, highlight issues that within other schools or perhaps school settings might be seen as sensitive topics.
But for me, it's important to normalize those things. Cause I think of, again, my experience. Um, as a young black girl going to school and not seeing myself represented anywhere. And when I did encounter instances of racism, I didn't feel like I could voice that or share that because I felt like perhaps I had done something wrong.
And so that's something that I'm conscious of and don't want to replicate in the schools that I lead. Um, so, you know, we're a school where, uh, we try to normalize conversations around difference. And so yes, we will do different celebrations and recognition because I think that. Those things are important to draw attention to, um, the unbalanced representation that a lot of groups have within our school system.
Um, but one of the things I'm mindful of is the schools that I serve. My identity is not the dominant identity of those schools. So it doesn't like, you know, when I'm, when I'm leading for equity, I start by leading. Um, and talking about the people who are in our community and the people that we are serving and are they represented?
How might they feel when they walk into our school community? Do they feel welcomed? Do they feel acknowledged? They do. They feel a sense of belonging? Um, and so that's something that we work continuously as, um, a school community towards. Um, but you know, just this past school year, there was an instance when something was posted on social media and it was a parent who felt as though their child had experienced
uh, racism, uh, within a group of, of students. And so right away, it was this outrage from our staff. And, you know, other parents upset that this parent would say that about our school because our school in, within our classrooms, you know, we work at this stuff so hard and it's ingrained into our way of being, I kind of said to, to the staff that was involved in the situation, I said 'Slow down here, what is
our goal? Our goal is to create an inclusive school environment.' So this family is telling us that they don't feel included. So with our goal is to genuinely create an inclusive school environment into someone that's telling us we're not doing a good job. Why are we getting defensive? Is this not for us, a learning opportunity?
Shouldn't our response be 'help me understand how we can be better.' And so, you know, engaging in those kinds of conversations with the staff where we don't see those things as conflict, we see those things as opportunities for growth and development, uh, for me as an important way of how I can lead a community in a way, uh, that is truly about community.
And I think for me, it's been a question of trial and error, uh, and also a question of, you know, this is now my. 13th 14th year as a school leader. Um, you know, so it's also a question of having developed a skill set and a level of confidence, uh, in the work that I'm doing to be able to engage in these kinds of conversations and not worry about.
You know, should I have said that? Should I not have said that? Uh, you know, and I'm at a point where yeah, I can back myself up with the practical and the theoretical and, and you know, the policy aspects and here's the research. Um, and so supporting my staff and my school community in that way. And again, centering it on that notion of hospitality.
These are the pieces that we're welcoming into our school on a daily basis. Do we want any of them to feel as though they don't belong? Um, and I think even when dealing with people who perhaps are uncomfortable with some of the others that we are working to include and support, um, when, when you frame it in that way, like, are you okay knowing that we have this family, this child who doesn't feel like they can fully be present with, on our community, because we're S we're not acknowledging who they are and that who they are belong here.
Most people would be hard pressed to say, no, I'm okay with, with intentional exclusion of children, you know? And so I think framing the conversation in that way for me, has made it accessible and understandable. Uh, and I'm, I'm blessed to work within a school community where the staff, the students, the, the, the family understand and share these values.
And so, you know, I've had conversations with families too, over the years where they've had to learn to get comfortable. With some of the discomfort alongside. So, yeah, that's I think hopefully that answered that question.
[00:25:51] Augy: Well, you answered it well on so many things, I'm trying to do my, my memory thing because there's so many things.
First thing that I really love what you said was the Nel Noddings' speech, because, you know, I referenced, um, Noddings work in, in my thesis. And one of the things that wasn't relational and how dare Nel Noddings talk about caring in school, you don't like, you're not caring, it's a curriculum place, but yet that relational piece is the hospitality that you speak about.
And so, um, in The, so there's a couple of links that you've made already before. I want to serve and that got me into education to serve. And so our quote unquote clients, and sometimes we don't want to use students as clients, but sometimes I do like to use that word because when a client comes into a store, That store is trying to serve that client AKA get their money.
Um, when we have students is often been this view in education that it's about the teachers, it's about the parents. It's about the administrators. It's about these superintendents, but very seldom. Is it truly about. And so if it is about the students, then that hospitality piece really works like, and it's also universally designed because whether you're Mennonites or first nations or autistic, or in a wheelchair or LGBTQ plus, or of African ancestry, it doesn't matter.
What I found is that that hospitality that you speak of is the key because parents get upset when it's not hospitable. It doesn't matter in which way. And what the reasons are they're sending their child to school. As we know that phrase in locals, parent is right, like during the school year hours, you're supposed to be the parents.
And so are you behaving in a caring, supportive, hospitable understanding culturally responsive way? And I do have to say Michelle, it seems as though there's a shift in culture because in the seventies and eighties, that was not. That like you could barely even talk to a teacher about caring or being hospitable or a bit like teachers would have chose to do that individually, but it was not part of the job.
Now. It is a job and there's this real culture shift. Even with some teachers leaving the profession because they don't want to, um, make that. And to getting to know parents into getting to know students into serving students. So I thought you gave a great answer around some of the shifts that are in education.
And the last thing I take, because I want to talk less and have you talk more, is. And, and you've already spoken and I believe this leadership is being in the, making the decisions that are unpopular leadership is being in the messy complexity. It's not about being on a pedestal, I'm the leader. It's not that in fact, you are probably going to make decisions that are going to bounce back on you, but their leadership decision, their leadership.
So how do you see. Um, I mean the community piece is, are the students are the parents who, when we talk about first voice, how do you see first voice linking to your leadership as an educator?
[00:29:07] Michelle: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, one of the things that you just talked about too, around that notion of caring and caring in schools, um, I think, I think one of the reasons why some educators and even families are resistant to it is they don't is they assume that caring is warm and fluffy and they don't recognize that academic rigor can be associated with caring.
And I think too, when I was an assistant principal in a, in a high school, you know, and I come down on a kid for something, oh, you're just doing this. Cause you don't like me. And you know, my line was always, this is actually what a caring adult looks like. Like I get paid regardless of whether you come to class or not.
So me engaging with you in this struggle where you're rolling your eyes and like swearing at me under your breath, like this isn't enjoyable for me. So this is actually carrying me, wanting you to get to school, me wanting you to be successful within the system. This is a form of caring, right. But also challenging the system so that more kids can be successful with it.
And there's also a form of caring. So I think that's one of the things that, what you said previously that I want to build. Um, but yeah, that's the first voice. I think, I think for myself, I'm always working to create more space for voice, um, and for the voice of our students, for the voice of our communities that are underrepresented.
Um, and for me, it, it ties back to that notion of caring and, and caring in the leadership and community and the leadership that I provide in that. Am I willing to give up space to create. For those voices. And what does that look like? Um, and so that's something that I think, you know, is a challenge because we're busy places as a school.
Um, I think that it, it relies on trust and relationship. Um, you know, cause I think, I think of, you know, the, one of the previous school communities that I worked in, um, and you know, for me, It, it took meeting the community where they were at and, you know, um, taking the time out of my building to go once a month and have coffee I'm at a housing complex that, you know, had some of our most, um, underserved families, uh, that were most neglected by not just the educational institution, but all historical institutions.
Um, and so for me, it was about what do we prioritize. If we want to make those shifts, how do we create spaces for those voices? Um, and how do we do it? Not from the lens of the institution, which tends to cater to, you know, people who are privileged, but how do we adjust the way we function as an institution so that those people feel as though a, we actually are doing what we're doing with authenticity.
Um, We're not just speaking with them to speak with them, to say, like, look what we've done, but there's actually the listening. Isn't just over going to sit and listen, but it's actually going to create change within the system and within the institution. And so I think for me, a lot of that is relationally based.
Um, and I think oftentimes in leadership positions, you know, you don't know how long you're going to be at a school. And so I want to create the most impact as quickly as possible. Um, but when you're inauthentic in the work that you do, when, when it's superficial, um, I think there's a less of a likelihood that people will buy into that type of work.
Um, because you know, I can, I can go and I can have coffee once and then go and say, well, I had coffee with those, with those indigenous families. And so, you know, now that I've had coffee with them, I think I know what their needs are. Um, so
[00:32:43] Augy: it's checked the checked box you've done it.
And I think,
[00:32:46] Michelle: I think one of the things that I've recognized within the span of this last school year in particular, um, and I think, you know, everyone attributes it to the murder of George Floyd. Um, but I think those of us who are in the know have known that that was the straw on the camel's back. That for some reason, raise the collective consciousness that many of us have been, you know, saying these things exist and have existed. Not just South of us, but here in Canada as well for a long time.
Uh, but I feel as though a lot of the approaches and part of it is because, you know, like you talked about it's messy, it's dirty, it's complicated. And there are all sorts of nuances to leading and learning within, within the framework of anti-racism or inclusivity and all of those pieces. Um, but I think that there's this urge to like, let's.
Spend one school year and check the boxes and talk about the things that we've done. Um, but anyone who's truly engaged in systems work understands that if we really want to do this work, if we really want to create a hospitable School system. It's not going to be done in a school year. Um, and it's not going to be done without taking a whole lot of time to sit and listen and create incremental changes within the system so that the people who have been neglected, underserved, abused by the system actually feel as though they have a space to voice, um, Themselves and create change within that system.
So I think for me, I think, you know, there's, there's a lack of recognition about the deep work that's required to create. Um, Community within a sense of school. Um, and, and when I talk about community again, I'm not just talking about that. Oh, we're friendly. This is peaceful, kindness, that kind of thing.
I'm talking about that deep, meaningful, we're challenging those ugly pieces that we as a system perpetuate because of what we're part of a, and we work to get better at that. So I think in terms of creating space,
[00:34:51] Augy: You're right when you're talking about authenticity too, because we often bring up authentic versus inauthentic.
And when people go, what, what do you mean by that? I mean, I think when we often say you don't get to call yourself an ally, the community that you are supporting when you've done it enough and you've been authentic enough, they get to call you an ally. And so that's authentic work is when the person who is being impacted.
Realizes and recognizes the change that you've helped make in their lives. And there's another piece that I want to bring out that, that, that is the flip side that I'm finding in the same work that you're doing. I'm doing that in Nova Scotia is the depth of the conversation is also self-reflection. So, so if we have a meeting where people are going to be talking and thinking about bias, Privilege and status quo and blind spots.
That's not your regular meeting. Right? So there's time. And we look at complexity theory of how long it takes to change culture. Um, there's some other work that it's not. So we have time where we have to do first voice and slow down and listen to community and all of that that's time and deep. But then there's another piece that's deep and heavy too.
And it's the people that are the servants doing the reflection. Otherwise it's inauthentic because if I don't own my male privilege, if I don't own my Anglophone privilege, if I don't own my able-bodied privilege, then I can't authentically hear the voices of people who say that they're underprivileged.
Right? So the depth of, of time that we need for culture shift, um, is, is two fold. It's not only listening, but it's self-reflecting.
[00:36:32] Michelle: Yeah, definitely. I think, I think unfortunately too many educators and educational leaders think that, you know, anti-racism, you know, or other anti-biased education is just another form of.
Right, but you can't go to a series of three may, can take workshops like you would for, you know, this latest numeracy trend or, or the daily five, you know, or whatever, and, and implement it because it's about recognizing, um, systemic issues. And, um, I just, you know, I feel like too often there is a false sense of urgency that leads to superficial change that.
I actually don't accomplish anything and just bury the problem deeper because people are able to then say, oh, well, no, we dealt with it. Like we did, we did that year and we put a policy in place and, you know, we we've talked about it, but how we challenged, you know, the, the, the things that run more deeply within our system, um, in terms of who is running it, who's making decisions.
I mean, I've, I've been part of meetings that are supposed to be about creating inclusive environments and the very people. That we are seeking to better represent through these initiatives. Their voices are being ignored because it doesn't fit the timeline. Um, and so for me, those are frustrations that come with the way the system functions, um, and, and the inauthentic way that it often addresses things.
And I don't know that it's always, I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. Um, and I think most people who get into education have good intentions. Um, but I think there's a lack of understanding, but also, um, going back to one of the things that I talked about earlier, a lack of a vulnerability in leadership, um, and a lack of willingness to say, I may not know what.
What I'm doing here. Um, and I, I, or I'm maybe out of my depth here, or I might be so trapped in my identity that I'm blinded and I don't even know what the blind spots are. Um, and I'm too uncomfortable to address them. Right. And so I think those are all things like, I think of, you know, even, even notions of language.
So I, I work in a French immersion midyear now. Uh, but the previous school that I worked in was a dual track school. So we had the English program and the French immersion program. And the history of French immersion across Manitoba, but I'll speak specific across Canada, but I'll speak specifically to Manitoba.
Um, French immersion oftentimes was viewed as a program for the privileged. And so you had students who already were excelling academically within the system and families would choose it as another. Um, as another challenge, academic challenge for their child. And so that's something that I think has changed over time, you know, um, as parents would become savvy and, you know, sometimes putting your child in immersion means that you qualify for busing for free, that you wouldn't otherwise sometimes putting your child in immersion means.
Um, the demographic of the school is going to be slightly different. And so you might see fewer behavioral needs, um, you know, or, or a more stable, um, socioec, economic, um, demographic within the population. And so that's slowly changed. Um, but so part of the conversation we got into as a school community is what is our identity as a dual-track school?
Because oftentimes it's, you know, you're an English school with the French immersion program as opposed to a dual track school. So we started getting into conversations because our school community at that time was probably about a third south Asian, a third Filipino. Um, and then the other third was a smattering of various identities
um, and all of these students are in the school that is supposed to be instructing and the two official languages. Um, you know, so we started talking about how do we value language? How do we value, um, the identity of our school as a dual track school? What message are we sending when we privilege English over even just French, which is our second language of instruction and both being colonial, languages
um, and how does our response to kids who aren't engaging with those languages? You know, relationally, you know, the two kids who are speaking in Punjabi on the playground instead of English or French, how does, how we respond to that, um, enforce or, um, our, our identity as a school and is that who we want to be.
Right. And so it took time to kind of wrestle with those things and it took time to develop this new identity and understanding. The importance of language. Um, because again, I think too many people travel with blind spots and they don't recognize that. Okay. So it's problematic that we're saying everything happens in English except for the French immersion kids, but that's only within the classroom that that happens.
And they don't recognize that the impact of that kind of. Tunnel vision thinking. Um, it's not just about French in English, but it also demonstrates the hierarchy and the devaluing of other linguistic identities within our school community. So I think, you know, again like that, couldn't have been a half day workshop with a staff that had to be conversation that came up again and again and again, um, and that had to look like.
What are the different entry points that we can have to create more of a systemic change around the way we think about these things. Um, but if, if you don't recognize the complexity of creating systemic change within a system as an educator, um, you think that, oh, I read a book that, you know, talks about language in there.
I've done it. You know, all we had our, we had our GSE celebration, so we've done it. Um, and I think that approach, um, creates a false sense of allyship because we're not risking much in doing it. In fact, we're doing it. Um, whether it's consciously or unconsciously to maintain dominance within the system, you know, so it's, I'll give you a crumb so that I can keep things the way they.
[00:42:32] Augy: Yeah. And, and the investment piece, how much are you willing to invest in, uh, and problems that have been decades, if not, you know, hundreds of years, but yet you want to spend one PD day or two PD days. So that complexity is there. And so I do want to, I want to thank you so much for the rich conversations challenge and, and you add to our national focus around hearing.
I was hearing about Winnipeg hearing about, um, uh, some of the there's a lot of similarities, but there's also differences. And you explaining that school system. And lastly, I want to thank you as, as, as an educator in a community. So I met you in a community setting, um, at NABSE, um, again, national association of black school educators, and there's something healing about.
Accessing that community. So I want to thank you for being a part of that community and continuing to be connected, continue to be doing the work that you're doing and know that you have a support on the east coast. You know, there's lots of Scotians that you've met, who are connected to you through education.
And I would be one of them as well, and you're doing a fantastic job. Continue to do and work on behalf of the students and being vulnerable, but being what leadership really looks like. And so I applaud you for that, and really thank you for your time.
[00:43:53] Michelle: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Empathize Others: The Podcast ©2021 Strongcoffee Media Group - Horizon Line Films Ltd.
