Anishnaabek language reclamation with Dr. Alan Corbiere

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Unknown: Elementary, elementary,
a podcast from Ed So, a podcast
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from the elementary teachers
Federation of Ontario.
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Meagan Perry: You are listening
to Elementary. A podcast for
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teachers, education workers, and
anyone who wants to know more
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about public education in
Ontario. I'm Meagan Perry. In
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this episode, we'll hear about
Anishinaabe language
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revitalization from Dr. Alan
Corbiere. This is part two of a
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wide ranging conversation with
Dr. Corbiere. You can also find
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a discussion on the history and
meaning of wampum from an
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Anishinaabe perspective, already
published on Elementary. This is
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a union podcast, and these days
we are featuring a few stories
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of how our members got involved
in their union. This episode,
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we're going to hear from Grace
Naylor, who went from zero to
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100 in her union involvement in
the space of a year and a half.
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It all started when she attended
a program at ETFO provincial.
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It was a really life changing
experience attending a workshop
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at the Provincial Office. The
workshop I signed up for was
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part of the women's program. It
was intersectionality and
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allyship. I felt really embraced
by the topic, by the guest
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speakers by the kinds of
questions and inquiry that we
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were being asked to consider,
and I felt like a true sense of
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belonging in that room, even
though it was a room full of
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many, many women, it was a
sharing experience, and nothing
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like I had ever experienced at
any other workshop. It's just a
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feeling of being taken care of
everything like from when I walk
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in the door, the person at the
desk, somehow they just
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magically know who I am and what
I'm here for. And there could be
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like three different events
going on, and somehow the person
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at the desk will always know
what I'm here for. And it just,
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it just feels like I'm meant to
be here. I've been teaching for
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a very long time, and have
tended a lot of workshops, but
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most of them are mandated. It's
there's a PA day that you have
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to sign up for something, and
then you have to go being in a
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room full of like minded people
was such a different experience.
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The mindset is different. After
the provincial workshop, I
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signed up for a lot of things
through the local and I'm part
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of a two year Women's Mentorship
Program. Started making
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connections and relationships,
and I got to know exactly what
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the union is and what they do,
and they're basically like an
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older sibling who's just there
to take care of you, guidance,
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advice when you need them,
they're there for you. I now
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aspire to become as involved as
I can, and because all of the
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people who are part of the Union
are just the kind of people who
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want to be there for each other
and who want the best for
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teachers, I asked to be a co
steward at My school, and nobody
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ever volunteers to be a steward
or aspires to be one. Usually,
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you get encouraged by somebody
else. But I thought I am the
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union, and being a steward would
be a great step forward in my
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union involvement, and I feel
like I'm giving teachers a voice
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in my own building and
connecting with other stewards
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and just presenting to other
teachers that these are our
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rights. This is what we deserve.
Did you know that you do have
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the right to say, no, sorry, I
can't, or did you know that you
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don't have to make report card
corrections more than once, and
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teachers often don't feel that
strong sense of community,
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sometimes feeling isolated at
their workspace. And when I give
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those messages to my colleagues
in my school, it really brings
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us together, and other teachers
are feeling like I have their
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back, and that creates a sense
of strong community in your
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school. I had gone 20 years
without really knowing anything
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about or being involved at all,
but I would like the members who
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are not yet involved to know
that when they're interested,
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it's there for them. And when
they see somebody going to a
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union event or talking about a
meeting or going to any kind of
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workshop or event that they can
go too. It just takes one small
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little step and you'll be
hooked.
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That was Grace Naylor, a member
of ed folks, Durham, teacher
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local, talking about how she
decided to get involved and
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become a steward at her school
for more information on edfo
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programs and resources and ways
to get involved. Make sure to
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register@members.edfo.ca. Now on
to the interview. From
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developing a culturally based
second language program focused
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on using Anishinabek story to
his PhD thesis on treaty making
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around the Great Lakes in the
1800 and 1900s Dr. Alan Corbiere
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has focused his work on the
history of Anishinaabe peoples
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and Anishinaabe language. Dr.
Corbiere teaches in the history
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department at York University,
where he holds a Canada Research
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Chair in indigenous history of
North America, and he is a
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visiting fellow at Harvard
University. Here is part two of
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my conversation with Dr. Alan
Corbiere. Welcome, Dr. Corbiere.
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Unknown: Hello, Aanii.
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Meagan Perry: Can you tell me
about the journey of your own
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language learning?
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Unknown: Well, okay, I'll start
by talking a bit about it in my
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language. What we this is a kind
of a standard introduction that
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people do. They'll say Aanii,
and that just means greetings.
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Booshoo is a more formal
greeting, and usually
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accompanied by a handshake. And
this is in Anishinaabemowin,
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which is spoken by Algonquin
people, Ojibwe people, Odawa
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people, Potawatomi people,
Mississauga people, Saulteaux
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people. But of course, we have a
variety of dialects, and then we
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would usually, you hear people
say whatever their name is, and
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they'll say indigenous cause,
and that means my, that's my
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name. So or others will say, Go,
that's what and it just means
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that's what I'm called, that's
what I'm referred to. So, so
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ojiig is, means ojiig is a
fisher, the animal, the of the
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weasel family. That's my
Anishinaabe name, ojiig, and in
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my clan, is bine , bine dodem.
And that's a rough grouse. So
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when I was young, when I was a
child, I was actually born in
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Toronto, and my parents are from
this community that I'm from
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now, M'Chigeeng First Nation on
Manatoulin. But my mom, her dad,
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actually had to transfer here to
to M'Chigeeng from a different
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reserve. The Reserve was called
Obedjiwan, and that reserve
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actually was known as the Peigan
band. They didn't accept
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Christianity and so but my my
granddad, his name was Moses
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Shouge, and he was the one that
actually ended up getting
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removed from that reserve. His
one of his relations ended up
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signing ceding that land, so
then the ones that were living
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there still had to be removed to
other bands. So my granddad
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ended up coming here to
M'Chigeeng. Anyway, my mom and
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dad met in Toronto when they
were young, people looking for
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work, and then they eventually
got married, and so I was born
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in Toronto, and then by the time
I was grade one, we moved up for
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grade one, when I when I was
starting grade one, and that's
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when I moved we moved home, back
to the reserve here, and My
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grandparents on my dad's side,
my grandfather on my mother's
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side, and all my aunts and
uncles spoke Ojibwe when I was a
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kid, and Ojibwe here,
Anishinaabemowin, when I'll use
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those two interchangeably,
Ojibwe and Anishinabe, when
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we're using every day here, I
heard it every day, and my mom
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And dad spoke to each other
every day in the language, and
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but they learn to speak to my
siblings and I, and they spoke
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in English. And so my story is
really common. I find in that
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sense that everyone my age,
basically their parents spoke
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Ojibwe. And then that was,
though, the cumulative effects
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of residential school, but also
here in M'Chigeeng day school.
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So some went to residential
school and some went to day
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school, but my parents went to
day school, but the message was
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still the same, don't speak your
language. You're just hindering
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your yourself, and you're just
going to hold your kids back.
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And in fact, before I started
speaking. One night this, this
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is really burned in my memory.
One night, my dad came home, and
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he was out imbibing with some of
his friends. They came home, and
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then he he's, this was near
midnight, and so he starts
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talking away to me, but he
started speaking in Ojibwe to
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me, and I must have been like 11
or 12, and then he says to me,
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you didn't understand. You don't
understand what I'm saying. I
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said no. Then he just lets he
just exhales, ah, I should have
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taught you our language. But
they hit us. They hit us when,
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when we spoke. And I didn't want
you to get hit when, when you
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were going to school. I want you
to go to school, and I want you
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to succeed in school, because I
never got the chance to go to
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school. Then he then, later on,
he said again, he'd bring that
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up again, and he'd say. He that
when he finished he wanted, when
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he wanted to actually go to high
school, but his dad told him,
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"No, you got to work with me and
help me cut wood in a bush" and
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to help provide for the rest of
the family, [speaking
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Anishinaabemowin], uh, I heard
Anishinaabemowin every day of my
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life. When I was a child, ,
[speaks
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Anishinaabemowin].Anishinaabemowin,
I heard, heard it every day when
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I was growing up, but I didn't
speak it. And we at the school I
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went to, we started taking it
and M'chiigeeng actually was the
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first one or one. I think it was
the first to take over what was
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called Indian control of Indian
Education back then. And the
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fellow that helped formulate
that policy paper was Lewis
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Debassige, the late Lewis
Debassige. Anyway, the chief at
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the time in the late 70s was Joe
Hare, and he was the one that
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ended up saying, we're taking
over this school, and we're
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going to run it our way. And so
when they started teaching more
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Ojibwe, but the programming at
that point and the resource
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development was, course, non
existent, and so they had to
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make the resources as they went
along. So we had some teachers,
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and at that point in time, at
Lakeview school, we had teachers
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that were fluent, and the late
Melvina Corbiere, she was
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fluent. Grace Fox, who's still
living in the community, she was
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fluent. Nancy Debassige. She was
our librarian at first, but then
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she got her went back to school,
got her papers, and she became
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the language instructor. She was
fluent. Then we had a fellow
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from Wiikwemkoong, a neighboring
reserve. He was fluent as well,
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Henry Lewis, and then Liz Paul
from who married into the
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community. So we had a lot of
fluent speakers. And then the
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late Angeline de Bosque, she was
our first language teacher
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there. So we had a lot of
speakers here at that time. But
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now in our community, in the
school, we just have one speak,
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one teacher who is fully fluent,
and she's going to retire to see
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her I've heard so my story, in a
sense, can be, I always say to
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people, it can be anybody's
story, just because when, when I
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grew up, I heard the language
all the time, but I didn't
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actually, I didn't actually grow
up speaking it, And so it's
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pretty common, that's But where
it gets uncommon is the effort I
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made to learn it. And once I
decided to learn it, it was
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because of my eldest child being
conceived when my wife and I, we
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were living in I moved back to
Toronto that by that time, and I
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went to University of Toronto,
and then that's where I met my
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wife, and so we decided that we
were going to have a life
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together, have a family
together, and we were going to,
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well, just make a try, to make a
good life, and to give our kids
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a better life than we had
growing up in in poverty and
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stuff. Anyway, we, we started.
We, we conceived that the child,
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of course, our eldest, who's now
named bines, and that means a
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baby ruffed grouse. And she was
named by my mom, my late mom.
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But we, we wanted. We said,
well, I said, I'm going to
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learn. I'm going to try to speak
Anishinaabemowin. And as I went
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around the Toronto Community at
that time, and this is an urban
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community, I was hanging out at
the we would go to the Native
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Canadian Center on Spadina and
Bloor. And there, beside there
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was a is a place called Wigwamen
Terrace. And there's elders that
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live there. Anyway, there is a
few elders. And my late aunt
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actually lived there, Ida
Shauger, my mom's sister. So
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there was, I was like, there's
actually a lot of people that
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speak Anishinaabemowin here in
Toronto, and there's no real
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reason that I can't learn it
here. Let's say that it's just
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on the reserve, because it's
actually here. It's spoken here
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daily as well. And when I then,
I started work at Chiefs of
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Ontario, and I befriended a
woman there named Dianne
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Mishibinijima Simon. She was a
administrative assistant there,
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but [speaks anishnaabemowin].
She's from Wiikwemkoong , and
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she could really speak well.
She's fully fluent. And then
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there was another woman there
named Lillian Dell. She also was
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from Wiikwemkoong, but she
worked at Chiefs of Ontario, and
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she could speak really well. She
the both of them were just
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fluent, right? Fully fluent. So
I would listen to a lot of
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tapes, and one of the tapes, uh.
Tape sets that I listened to was
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Basil John, the late Basil
Johnson's Ojibwe course outline
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for beginners. So I had this
thing, and his methodology, he
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made that in late 70s, I believe
was 78.
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but that methodology has been,
is is dated. And it's called,
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basically, it's called the rote
memorization methodology. So he
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provides all these phrases, and
you've memorized them, and
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you're you're you, you're able
to basically regurgitate them at
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when, when prompted. But you you
don't actually go beyond these
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set answers that you have
rehearsed. But what was the the
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awesome thing about that he had
at the end of that book, that
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course outline, he did this
thing on he didn't call it
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morphology, and I don't think he
was trying to go for morphology,
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but he basically showed how and
morphology is actually looking
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at words that word parts that
have meaning, and how these, how
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Ojibwe is structured on these
word parts to create more exact
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meanings of how things occur.
And our language anishnaabemowin
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is verb-based. So anyway, one of
the things he did that I really
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liked was he would take initial
morphemes. So one of the initial
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morphemes would be biid or biij,
and both of these mean to come
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approaching the speaker. So
here, let's say, like earlier, I
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mentioned to you, it's a
beautiful day here, but it's
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windy. So if the wind is blowing
towards me, I say, biidaanamat,
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the wind is blowing towards me
comes blowing this way. And then
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if a cloud, I see a cloud, and
this cloud comes this way, then
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that's what I would say
biidaanakwad. And so that biid
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is the part that indicates that
it's coming towards you. And
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then the second part you tack on
to that word is actually what
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they call a final and then a
final morpheme. And both of
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those at the what I did was
talk, use the morpheme for wind,
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and then the morphine for a
cloud. So anyway, and then you
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could do that, of course, with
the flow of water, biidoojawan,
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the water flows this way. And
then you'd say, bagamibatoo if
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somebody comes running, running
towards you, or biidaasamose, if
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they're walking towards you.
Anyway, that was the part that I
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was like, Oh, this has because
you, when you go to classes, you
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hear how Anishinaabemowin is
verb-based. But that's the funny
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thing is all the speakers will
say that, and all the teachers
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will say that, and all the
language instructors. But what I
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found later on this, nobody's
actually teaching the internal
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structure of verbs to how to get
a better, exacting thing. So I
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think our language instruction
has to actually start to account
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for that, right? Anyway, a
little a little aside there.
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Meagan Perry: When you and and
your team developed your
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Anishinaabemowin Language
Program, how did you decide on
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using storytelling as the
vehicle?
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Unknown: Well, with that, so the
influence with that Basil
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Johnson's course outline for
beginners, because that's
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basically our language is like
Latin, so any of these, and of
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course, English is influenced by
Latin. So the example I often
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use is, I'll say to students, do
you know what a periscope is?
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And sometimes they don't know,
but sometimes somebody's watched
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a movie about a submarine, and
they know that a periscope is
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what you use to look above. And
then I say, Well, how about a
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microscope? And of course, they
know what a microscope is. And
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then I say, how about a
telescope? And I said, see what
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all I've done is Latin is like,
structurally like Ojibwe or
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Anishinaabemowin in that you
take word parts to make new
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meaning, make new words and make
new meanings. So I've just
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switched, I've used scope, but I
just changed the front part,
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telescope, microscope,
periscope, and Latin does that
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all the time, especially in the
scientific world. So
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Anishinaabemowin does the same
thing. And when we were
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designing our our program at
Anishnaabek and revival program,
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we actually, I used, like, like
I was telling I used Basil
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Johnson's materials then, but
the thing with that rote
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memorization is, you, I couldn't
make words on my own, and I
280
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:31,650
couldn't I didn't know how to
put words together in a sentence
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because he didn't teach grammar,
and so I was stuck. And and then
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00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:40,830
when I'd go to these language
classes at the Native Canadian
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00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:44,880
Center, we were doing dialogues,
but I still wasn't learning how
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to manipulate words to create my
own sentences. And then it was
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only through taking I didn't
actually enroll in the course,
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but Mary Ann Corbiere from
Wiikwemkoong, she's no no
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00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,150
relation of mine, or her husband
would have been a distant
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00:21:03,150 --> 00:21:07,380
relation by then, just carrying
the same surname. But she, she,
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00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:12,480
her name is Mary Ann and then
she married a Corbiere. Anyway,
290
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,730
she she had a a course at at
Laurentian, and I bumped into a
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00:21:17,730 --> 00:21:20,820
friend of mine that Ojibwe
Culture Foundation, and we were
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00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:25,020
both shopping for Ojibwe
language resource materials
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00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:28,380
because we were both trying to
learn to speak Ojibwe. And then
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00:21:28,380 --> 00:21:31,440
she said to me, I says, You know
what I said? I know about 1000
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00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,170
words. I says, but I don't know
how the hell to put them
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00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:37,320
together in the right way. I
says, Unless somebody says
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00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,840
something to me, you know, like,
are you hungry? Then I can say,
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00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,500
Yes, I'm hungry. And if, but if
somebody then says, Well, what
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00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:47,640
do you feel like eating? I would
be lost. And then, or if
300
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somebody says, Oh, if I said,
Yeah, I'd like potatoes. And
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then if they say, Well, do you
want them boiled, fried or
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00:21:53,910 --> 00:21:58,500
mashed? I wouldn't be able to
answer anyway. So she says, My
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00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,700
friend says, Oh, Mary Ann, Dr.
Mary Ann has a course at
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00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:06,870
Laurentian, and it teaches you
how to put all those together.
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00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:11,520
Because I says, I don't know how
to say I saw so I saw this, or I
306
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,650
saw that yesterday, and I and I
can't say he saw me yesterday,
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00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:22,020
or they saw me. And these all
require internal structure,
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00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:27,990
structural changes in the verb.
And anyway, Mary Ann's course
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taught me that, and I just at
that point, like I said, I met
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her, and I said that I knew,
like, 1000 words, just
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estimating. So I just contacted
the Department of Native Studies
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at Laurentian, and I just said,
I want to buy the course
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00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:45,000
materials. It was a distance Ed
course anyway, so I didn't need
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00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:51,030
to enroll. And so I said, I
don't need the beginner. I'll
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00:22:51,030 --> 00:22:54,270
start at the intermediate,
thinking that I knew more than I
316
00:22:54,270 --> 00:23:00,870
did anyway, my learning just
that that course, was a key, and
317
00:23:00,870 --> 00:23:04,770
it unlocked because I was just
like I said. I just knew all
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these words, but once i She
explained all that, how to
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00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:12,600
actually change the direction of
interaction, how to make sure
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00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,310
your verb coincides with the
animacy of the noun, then my
321
00:23:17,310 --> 00:23:21,240
learning just took off. So that
was what actually really helped
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00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,740
me out. Was Mary Ann Corbiere's
course, and then so I took with
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the Anishinaabemowin and revival
program, my team and I, we, I
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00:23:30,540 --> 00:23:35,340
said, Well, we gotta teach this,
speakers that are fluent, that
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grew up with it. Just loathe
these words: transitive,
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00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:45,540
animate and verbs. They just
loathe those terms because they
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00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:48,480
don't know them. They said, "We
don't We never had to learn
328
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,870
those growing up." But for
Anishinaabemowin second-language
329
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:55,710
speakers, you need to learn
those if a verb is transitive or
330
00:23:55,710 --> 00:23:59,790
intransitive, and all that means
is it takes an object and if
331
00:23:59,790 --> 00:24:04,500
it's if, and you have to know if
it's animate or inanimate. So
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00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,500
for example, one of the common
mistakes that people say,
333
00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:12,030
everyone knows wiisin and that
means eat. That's a command,
334
00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:18,120
eat. And they also know
wiisinida , let's eat. So what
335
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:21,960
some people do is, and this is
what this is the key here, this
336
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:27,510
wiisini. It means he or she is
eating. And what is that? What
337
00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:31,080
ends up happening is that is a
intransitive verb, meaning that
338
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,860
you can't use that to take an
object. So here's a common
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00:24:34,860 --> 00:24:40,350
mistake that learners beginners
make. Oh, no, wiisini mishiimin.
340
00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:46,380
So what they're trying to say is
eat an apple. But you can't say
341
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:50,460
that because wiisini is a
intransitive verb. It doesn't
342
00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:54,540
mean you can you're using that
to eat something. So you have to
343
00:24:54,540 --> 00:24:58,380
know mishiimin is an apple. So
you have to know if that apple
344
00:24:58,380 --> 00:25:02,070
is animate or inanimate, and
it's animate, so you say, you
345
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:08,910
have to say, gidaanwaana
mishiimin, do you want to eat an
346
00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:13,770
apple? Whereas, if that were an
orange and orange is inanimate,
347
00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:19,470
you would have to say,
Giminjinna azaminga. So for our,
348
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:23,070
our language program in the
school, I said, Let's just
349
00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:27,270
tackle this right off the bat,
this animate inanimate, because
350
00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:32,610
everything in in an is either
animate or inanimate. And then
351
00:25:32,610 --> 00:25:35,760
from there, you gotta decide, if
you're, if you're, how are you
352
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,160
going to talk about it? And you
have to. Choose the appropriate
353
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,300
verb that agrees with that
animacy. So like I said, you
354
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:48,900
can't say nuiisini mishiimin,
and you can't even say nuiisini
355
00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:53,130
azaminga. All you can say is
nuiisini. I am eating, but you
356
00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:58,920
you gotta say mijin. I'm eating
a orange or daanwaana
357
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:02,910
mishiimin, I'm eating an apple.
And so basically you gotta learn
358
00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:07,170
three words to say, what you
would say in English, would eat,
359
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,790
is what I was getting at. That
shows how kind of how complex it
360
00:26:11,790 --> 00:26:16,260
can be. But what you what you
have to do, what I think it has
361
00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:19,080
to be done in the communities,
is, and language programs is
362
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,010
teach that right off the hop,
because when when speakers learn
363
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:29,130
this as children, that's they
they weren't. They weren't. They
364
00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:31,770
were in a natural environment,
and they were provided with
365
00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:35,100
ample input that showed the
difference between animate and
366
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:39,600
inanimate. But in today's world,
especially in a controlled
367
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,020
environment, a learning
environment like a school, where
368
00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:46,920
you only have an hour or two, or
whatever it is, you have to
369
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,220
tackle that explicitly. You
can't let that happen. It
370
00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:54,660
doesn't happen organically over
time you need it needs way, way
371
00:26:54,660 --> 00:26:58,890
more sufficient, way, way more
time than is allowed in a school
372
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,430
to do that, so you got to,
actually, I believe you got to
373
00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:05,460
tackle that right off the hop.
So that's what we did with our
374
00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:09,630
program. We we started with
breakfast foods and the teach
375
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:13,350
that animate, inanimate. And
then while that was going on,
376
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:17,970
this shows kind of everyday
language. But our premise at the
377
00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:21,840
Anishinaabemowin revival program
was we don't want to just teach.
378
00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:24,690
And this is actually kind of
mimicking my own language
379
00:27:24,690 --> 00:27:28,860
journey, because I was like, I
don't want at one point, I was
380
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:31,590
like, Okay, I'm tired of just
talking about
381
00:27:33,150 --> 00:27:38,130
eating and having good table
manners. I want to learn our
382
00:27:38,130 --> 00:27:42,510
story in Anishinaabemowin. I
want to learn our narrative, our
383
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:47,160
grand narrative, and our history
and our geography and our
384
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,080
biology and our sociology in
Anishinaabemowin in its original
385
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,940
medium. So that's when I started
talking to recording elders, and
386
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:59,940
I would just be talking to them,
then I'd say, Oh, that's a cool
387
00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:02,940
story. Let's record that. So we
started recording these
388
00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:06,540
different stories, and mostly it
was with my dad and my aunt and
389
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:10,740
my uncle. And then after, I also
worked with a woman here on the
390
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:14,550
reserve named Evelyn Roy, but
she really writes
391
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:18,120
Anishinaabemowin And when and
she she really knows she was a
392
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,120
tremendous help, because she
would help me with some of the
393
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:25,560
words that I didn't know.
Anyway, I ended up meeting a
394
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,690
linguist through my travels, and
I told him, I said that what I
395
00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:35,400
want to do is I want to take all
these stories and I want to put
396
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,900
all the words in some kind of
machine, and I said to me, it's
397
00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:44,790
like a meat a grinder or a
blender, but it isn't a blender,
398
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:49,020
because what I wanted to do is I
actually wanted to sort all the
399
00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:53,100
words out to make a glossary,
but also to then sort what are
400
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:58,200
the most commonly used words in
these stories, And then also,
401
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,800
what are the most commonly used
verbal form, grammatical forms,
402
00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:07,170
so that we teach the students
that right right up starting at
403
00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:10,260
grade one, so that by the time
they get to grade eight, they
404
00:29:10,260 --> 00:29:14,070
can listen to these stories that
the elders are telling, and they
405
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:17,220
can actually do projects on them
and paraphrase them and make
406
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:20,010
comic books out of them, or make
little movies out of them, or
407
00:29:20,010 --> 00:29:23,460
little skits out of them, but
that they are able to handle
408
00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:26,520
that. And I said, I kind of feel
like I'm cheating, because I
409
00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:31,050
feel like I'm giving them the
answers ahead of time. Anyway,
410
00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:34,680
my boss at the time was my
buddy, Neil Debassige, who is
411
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,660
actually the principal at
Lakeview school. And he says, Oh
412
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:42,480
no, that's that's not cheating.
That's called backwards design.
413
00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:48,060
And I didn't know that had a
name. So that was what we what
414
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:51,270
we decided. And so I went and
recorded these elders, and I
415
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,320
then I looked in the archives,
and I found different stories of
416
00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:59,880
our culture hero, the trickster,
Nanabozho and if we didn't, if
417
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,840
the elders here didn't know the
story, then I included it. And
418
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:09,720
so we had a bunch of sources,
some from the elders, some from
419
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,410
archives, some that were written
in English that we got the
420
00:30:13,410 --> 00:30:19,440
elders to translate back into
Ojibwe. And then what we were to
421
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,490
put them in that analyzer. And
now my buddy, The linguist,
422
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,260
Dustin Bowers, is his name, he
he's devised an analyzer that is
423
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:32,970
actually able to categorize
these and and it matches with
424
00:30:32,970 --> 00:30:36,120
the Anishinaabemowin online
dictionary, which was actually
425
00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:40,320
that Anishinaabemowin online
dictionary was created by Doctor
426
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,010
Mary Ann Corbiere, the one that
I said that had the course that
427
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,620
unlocked the key for me, her,
her and Rand Valentine, who Rand
428
00:30:49,620 --> 00:30:53,550
Valentine's a linguist who wrote
a big, this great, big blue book
429
00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:56,910
called Anishinaabemowin
Reference Grammar. It's like, as
430
00:30:56,940 --> 00:31:02,280
you know, if you remember an old
Toronto phone book how thick
431
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,700
those were, right? That's how
thick this Anishinaabemowin
432
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:08,790
Reference Grammar is. Anyway,
the two of them teamed up to
433
00:31:08,790 --> 00:31:11,520
make this online
Anishinaabemowin online
434
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,750
dictionary, and my the stories
that I collected from the
435
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:19,830
elders, I wanted to feed into
that. So that's what Dustin
436
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:23,160
Bowers is doing, the linguist,
he's helping me with that, and
437
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,120
we're all actually coming up
with the frequency of words. But
438
00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:31,290
so just to be clear here, I no
longer work at Anishinaabemowin
439
00:31:31,290 --> 00:31:35,160
at the Anishinaabemowin revival
program for my community, the
440
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,990
funding ran out, and once the
funding ran out, I just went
441
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:43,110
back to school and did my
Ph.D.at York University, and
442
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:49,170
then in history. And then I got,
I got hired there. So anyway,
443
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:53,100
the the other work that we did
while I was at Anishinaabemowin
444
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:58,830
Revival Program, I took the the
treaties, and as they're written
445
00:31:58,830 --> 00:32:03,960
in English. And I was like
telling the elders that I worked
446
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,660
with said, well, let's imagine
where the the interpreters. How
447
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:14,670
would you translate this? People
back then? So we came up with a
448
00:32:14,670 --> 00:32:18,330
translation. And then people in
Wiikwemkoong also came up with a
449
00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:22,950
translation of that treaty. And
then I found archival documents
450
00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:28,560
written in the 1870s that have
some some parts that are how
451
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,710
they how the Chiefs understood
it at that time, how and how
452
00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:36,720
they got their their secretaries
to write it in the Ojibwe. So
453
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,800
that's been what my research is
about. Wow, what I what I end up
454
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,210
hoping, my long term goal is
still to make a history program,
455
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:51,300
all in Anishinaabemowin and that
we have this treaty in there and
456
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:54,990
that we talk about, that we
critically engage with the text
457
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:59,190
in English, but through
Anishinaabemowin and that
458
00:32:59,310 --> 00:33:02,250
hopefully students at some point
in the future, this ain't going
459
00:33:02,250 --> 00:33:06,600
to happen next year or even five
years from now, but what I had
460
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,550
hoped when I was at the Lakeview
school was that by by the time
461
00:33:11,550 --> 00:33:14,280
they got to grade eight, the
kids would have been the
462
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,210
students would have been able to
handle reading that and reading
463
00:33:18,210 --> 00:33:22,890
for comprehension, not just
decoding, right? Yeah, that was
464
00:33:22,890 --> 00:33:23,400
my goal.
465
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:26,130
Meagan Perry: So over the course
of your career, you've done all
466
00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:29,220
this work in language, and
you've got this long term goal
467
00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:33,210
of people being able to read the
treaties in Anishinaabemowin and
468
00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:37,380
I wanted to ask you what kind of
shift you've seen in the
469
00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:39,960
thinking around learning and
Anishinaabemowin?
470
00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,240
Unknown: That's a great
question. One of the things,
471
00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:50,910
like, when I started my there's
a group that I'm involved with.
472
00:33:50,970 --> 00:33:57,000
It's an adult immersion program,
and for young, young adults, and
473
00:33:57,150 --> 00:33:58,950
they've had great success, and
they're called
474
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,060
oshkiAnishinaabemojig, and that
means oshkiAnishinaabemojig
475
00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:07,890
means new speakers of the
language, and there is some. So
476
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,920
when I was going through, the
only other person that was
477
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:17,940
really seemed really determined
to learn was a fellow named
478
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:22,740
Brian McGuinness, and him and I
were at the did our Masters'
479
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:25,440
together at York University in
the Faculty of Environmental
480
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,490
Studies. And at that point,
there wasn't much language
481
00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:36,720
materials, nor much in regards
to pedagogy and the but we were
482
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:41,160
recording our elders, both him
and I, and he's. He's a way more
483
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:47,370
proficient speaker than I am
now. But anyway, he he's, he
484
00:34:47,370 --> 00:34:52,350
recorded his elders, made these
he recently published a book
485
00:34:52,350 --> 00:34:55,290
within the last five years of
his great, great grandfather,
486
00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:58,800
Francis Pegahmagabow . So he
authored a book called Sounding
487
00:34:58,830 --> 00:35:02,430
Thunder. Sounding Thunder the
stories of Francis Pegahmagabow
488
00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:07,950
that were told by his aunt and
uncle in Ojibwe. Anyway, so
489
00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:12,360
there's a lot more materials and
but one of the things that's
490
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:21,690
happening is people have dialect
affinity, and that they some of
491
00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:24,450
them will resist any teacher
that comes through a community
492
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,840
that doesn't speak their
dialect. So that's a constant.
493
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,060
So I'm not answering your
question per se, but I'm telling
494
00:35:30,060 --> 00:35:35,760
you what some of the underlying
issues are. So the so sometimes
495
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,130
people will look down on other
people's dialects and at the to
496
00:35:41,130 --> 00:35:47,070
me at the expense of learning
and and then the other thing
497
00:35:47,070 --> 00:35:52,110
that's happening at at times is
there's still this, there's
498
00:35:52,110 --> 00:35:57,690
still this bias against writing
like speakers of
499
00:35:57,750 --> 00:36:01,680
Anishinaabemowin, like that are
fully fluent that that was their
500
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,820
first language. They're like, we
never wrote this and we never it
501
00:36:05,820 --> 00:36:09,840
shouldn't be written down. Well,
they don't say that anymore, but
502
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,400
they, they're like, I don't know
that double vowel. I don't need
503
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,720
to know that. I'm a speaker, not
a writer. And it's, you know,
504
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,930
it's true. They don't, they
don't need it, but learners need
505
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:25,560
it, and that's the thing I keep
trying to tell them, is you
506
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,920
don't need it. That's true, but
we need it, and we need your
507
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,850
help if this is going to if this
is going to survive. So when I
508
00:36:32,850 --> 00:36:36,120
first started out, like in the
and I moved back to the
509
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:42,210
community in 2000 like I said, I
met my wife in Toronto, then we
510
00:36:42,210 --> 00:36:47,760
were living in Toronto till ' 99
then we moved back. But when
511
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:52,260
back then, there was this few
books published that were
512
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:56,220
published by linguists, and some
were most, most of them were
513
00:36:56,610 --> 00:37:00,030
from Minnesota dialect. But I
love those stories, and I bought
514
00:37:00,030 --> 00:37:04,290
those books and I used them and
and then I was, I was like, we
515
00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:06,540
going to have this for our
dialect. So that was what
516
00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:09,960
inspired me to record, record
our elders here on that too, and
517
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,580
then to start publishing books
like that as well. Try to.
518
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,890
Anyway, so there, one of the
main changes is there are more
519
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:24,630
resources available, printed
resource material, and some of
520
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:32,250
them try to adhere to the double
vowel orthography. But some that
521
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:38,460
are being published, I wish they
would take a bit more care and
522
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,030
and actually check the
spellings, with the, with the
523
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,530
with the dictionaries, because
in the in the future, what's
524
00:37:46,530 --> 00:37:49,860
going to happen it, and this is
where we're actually living
525
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:55,260
this, because you go to anywhere
in Ontario, Michigan, Minnesota,
526
00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,750
Manitoba, arts of Quebec, and
you'll see places named that
527
00:38:00,750 --> 00:38:04,530
aren't French and that aren't
English, but they're in in
528
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:10,470
presumably in Anishinaabemowin,
but they're spelled so variantly
529
00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:14,940
that you can't tell what the
word actually is, and then you
530
00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:20,220
gotta look, look at that
orthography to try and determine
531
00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:24,150
what that actual word is, and
then you can decode that word,
532
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:29,220
hopefully with the assistance of
elders or speakers, to find out
533
00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:34,410
what that word means. So that
basically, I'm saying spelling
534
00:38:34,410 --> 00:38:39,930
is important and what's
changing, what's changing is
535
00:38:41,370 --> 00:38:44,880
people are starting to try and
adhere to the double vowel
536
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,410
orthography that's been adopted
as the standardized one, but
537
00:38:49,410 --> 00:38:54,690
we're still having a bit of
trouble fully adhering to it,
538
00:38:54,750 --> 00:38:58,320
and we got a lot more online
resources. And in fact, that
539
00:38:58,350 --> 00:39:03,000
when I talked about this,
OshkiAnishnaabekmojig, these
540
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,110
young people, there's a young
lady named she isn't a teenager,
541
00:39:07,110 --> 00:39:14,520
but she's like 30. Her name's
Jessica Shonias and her
542
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,040
co-collaborators were Monty
McGahey from Chippewa of the
543
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,690
Thames near London, Ontario, and
Mskwaankwad Rice from Wasauksing
544
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:30,480
Perry Island Reserve. So these
three actually met and became
545
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,030
friends, and they were they
decided they were going to learn
546
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:34,980
to speak Ojibwe. And they're
from three different
547
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:38,610
communities, but they went out
to Minnesota, where actually
548
00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:43,530
they saw immersion for adults,
and they were inspired by that
549
00:39:44,580 --> 00:39:47,220
programming, and so that's why
they started
550
00:39:47,250 --> 00:39:52,740
oshkiAnishinaabemojig and so
they fully embrace the writing,
551
00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:57,930
and they fully acknowledge that
that writing helps them, and
552
00:39:57,930 --> 00:40:03,690
they also fully embrace that
consistently spelled word,
553
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:10,080
assist learner. And this is a
this is a shift that this is the
554
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,610
point I'm getting at is this is
a shift. So earlier, when I
555
00:40:14,610 --> 00:40:18,840
started in, for instance, when I
got back to the community. Here,
556
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,970
we recorded one of the elders,
and he was addressing an annual
557
00:40:23,970 --> 00:40:28,170
general assembly here about his
program, which was called at
558
00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:30,540
that time, [speaks
Anishnabemowin], and that means
559
00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:34,230
the Red Road, and it was a
medicine program, providing
560
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,910
traditional medicines to people
with different ailments. So he
561
00:40:38,910 --> 00:40:43,920
was supposed to, he was to do an
update of his program, what they
562
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,960
did for the year. So all the
communities representatives were
563
00:40:48,990 --> 00:40:54,360
in this hall, and they were
recording this on videotape. And
564
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,960
then he just, he was a older
man, so he just started speaking
565
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,620
about it all in Ojibwe, and then
I was just like, Oh, that's
566
00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:04,860
great. This is the kind of stuff
we need. So I went up and I
567
00:41:04,860 --> 00:41:07,620
asked him, I said, "Can I write
that out" He says, oh, yeah,
568
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:11,910
yeah, write that out. Anyway,
his boss comes to me later she
569
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:17,610
heard that I was writing it out.
Bear in mind, this is in 2000
570
00:41:19,860 --> 00:41:24,960
and she ends up saying, "You
can't do that." And I'm like,
571
00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:29,550
What do you mean? Don't write
that out. You can't write it. It
572
00:41:29,550 --> 00:41:35,700
shouldn't be written down. And
I'm like, why not? It's, it's,
573
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:41,010
he's recorded. He said it. She
says, Well, you just can't get
574
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:44,760
you just can't recreate what he
said there. He was just speaking
575
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,530
on a different plane. And so I
ended up writing an article
576
00:41:49,530 --> 00:41:52,650
after and I says, and I've
submitted it to a newspaper. And
577
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:56,460
I said, our goal isn't to try
and recreate
578
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:02,670
transcendental speeches. Our
goal is to actually provide the
579
00:42:02,670 --> 00:42:07,020
ladder, and that's what literacy
does, is get give learners a
580
00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:11,940
ladder and tools to get to that
plane when, when the speaker is
581
00:42:12,090 --> 00:42:17,040
speaking like that. So I said
these are tools. You're mixing
582
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:23,310
the tools up with the actual
outputs, I said, So we still
583
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:26,160
need this. So he was still
alright with me writing it out.
584
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:30,210
But then another elder had said
that to me as well. Well, you
585
00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:35,550
can't write that out because the
sound isn't the same. And I was
586
00:42:35,550 --> 00:42:39,510
just like, you know, when we
talk in English and we read in
587
00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:44,010
English, we learn the system. We
learn the variants. Like we know
588
00:42:44,010 --> 00:42:48,630
that when we say, although it
wasn't enough, it was
589
00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:54,930
sufficient. And we know that the
O, U, G, H, in enough has a f
590
00:42:54,930 --> 00:43:00,360
sound, but when we say, although
it doesn't have an F sound. We
591
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,960
learn that when we spell. So I
said we can learn to spell these
592
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,090
things, and we can learn to
pronounce them with enough
593
00:43:06,090 --> 00:43:10,410
practice, and we can become more
proficient. Anyway, so that's
594
00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:13,890
one of the big, bigger changes
now, and I actually attribute
595
00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:19,560
this to social media, because as
like my kids say to me,
596
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,290
Facebook's for old people. So
you look on Facebook and a lot
597
00:43:25,290 --> 00:43:29,850
of these older people that and
myself, included the people that
598
00:43:29,850 --> 00:43:34,680
are fully fluent, they actually
write some of their posts and
599
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:40,260
comments in Ojibwe now, whereas
20 years ago, they were staunch
600
00:43:40,260 --> 00:43:44,070
opponents, some of them were
staunch opponents to literacy,
601
00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:46,950
but now it's on social media.
They're they're writing their
602
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:51,330
responses in Anishinaabemowin.
It's not just social media, but
603
00:43:51,330 --> 00:43:56,700
it's that's made it more
visible. But the other thing, of
604
00:43:56,700 --> 00:44:01,170
course, is there's a severe
attrition of speakers that
605
00:44:01,170 --> 00:44:04,920
generation has aged, and they're
they're the ones that are
606
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,300
passing so in our community,
like I said when I was a kid at
607
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:13,470
the beginning, all my aunts and
uncles, well, except one aunt,
608
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,420
all speak Anishinaabemowin, and
my grandparents All spoke
609
00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:21,330
Anishinaabemowin. And you could
go to the band office, you could
610
00:44:21,330 --> 00:44:24,690
go to the store, you'd hear
Anishinaabemowin. But now you go
611
00:44:24,690 --> 00:44:27,120
to the band office, you'd be
hard pressed to hear
612
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,710
Anishinaabemowin spoken. And
same thing, you go go to the
613
00:44:31,710 --> 00:44:36,480
store, it's likely you won't
hear it. So the number of
614
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,680
speakers in M'Chigeeng on this
reserve has really declined, and
615
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,160
it's like that all over. And
we're not replacing our
616
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,090
speakers, uh, quick enough, but
that's what we need. Are these
617
00:44:48,090 --> 00:44:50,880
uh, young people like
oshkiAnishinaabemojig group that
618
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,190
are really willing to learn and
make that effort. But to me, it,
619
00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:59,310
it still isn't enough. I still
feel like Chicken Little when
620
00:44:59,310 --> 00:45:03,810
I'm going around telling people
we're losing our speakers and
621
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,610
Anishinaabemowin is endangered,
and it's leaving this community,
622
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:12,150
and it's leaving Manitoulin,
but Manitoulin is seen as one of
623
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:16,830
the strongholds of
Anishinaabemowin, but, and
624
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:21,360
partly, it's because of
Wiikwemkoong is has a big
625
00:45:21,570 --> 00:45:24,960
population of speakers still,
but it used to be that it was
626
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,890
right across the island like
Sheshegwaning, Zhiibaahaasing,
627
00:45:29,490 --> 00:45:32,550
Sheguiandah,Aundeck Omni Kaning
and M'Chigeeng. So there's a
628
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:36,360
growing acceptance. And then
also the other thing is just the
629
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:41,190
technology. So you'll you'll see
speakers, even if they're not
630
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:45,660
writing their responses in
Anishinaabemowin you got people
631
00:45:45,660 --> 00:45:49,620
going around recording elders
talking, or their parents just
632
00:45:49,620 --> 00:45:52,290
saying different things, and
then they'll post it to
633
00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:55,890
Facebook. That's the thing
that's, that's the shift has
634
00:45:55,890 --> 00:46:00,420
happened is the the tools and
the resources have become more
635
00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:06,450
refined, and I think the jury is
still out on on how, how that's
636
00:46:06,450 --> 00:46:10,830
going to affect us, and how, if
it's going to assist one of the
637
00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:15,540
funny things that I liked this
was, I believe this was Monty
638
00:46:15,540 --> 00:46:20,790
Mcgahey, who who made this meme.
And this is why I'm still on
639
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:25,260
Facebook. Is there's so the so
many funny memes. Anyway, this
640
00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:29,820
meme that I think Monty made, he
says this says it has a picture
641
00:46:29,820 --> 00:46:37,020
of a speaker there,eh? The
caption says, "Siri speak Ojibwe
642
00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:41,340
to my child." So to me, I was
just like, wow, that's that's
643
00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:44,940
really where we're at. Learning
Anishinaabemowin is hard work,
644
00:46:45,450 --> 00:46:49,350
and it's intensive that says,
but what people want? Everyone
645
00:46:49,350 --> 00:46:51,840
says they want to know. They
wish they knew how to speak.
646
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,620
They want to learn to speak. But
what they really want is they
647
00:46:55,620 --> 00:46:58,260
want they're waiting for, like,
the matrix, where they just get
648
00:46:58,260 --> 00:47:02,070
a microchip inserted in their
brain and they just upload it.
649
00:47:03,090 --> 00:47:05,970
They don't want to actually
expend the effort to learn.
650
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:10,680
People are trying different
things. There's a fella, and
651
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,790
this is Mohawk language, and
it's his name is Brian Maracle,
652
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:21,540
and he learned to speak Mohawk
as a, as a, as a middle aged
653
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:28,560
man. And then once he, once he
learned, he then developed his
654
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,970
own teaching method. And so what
he believes, and he's kind of
655
00:47:32,970 --> 00:47:40,680
convinced me of this now that he
says we shouldn't actually be
656
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,540
focusing on we do have to do
Child Care programming, but
657
00:47:45,570 --> 00:47:48,840
we're overstating that these
language nests and these
658
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,040
immersion children and immersion
programs are going to work. He
659
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,600
says to me, he says, When I'm
teaching adults, if these adults
660
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,340
become fluent. He says, I've had
young people come in that they
661
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:05,220
went to the immersion program as
a child, but then they lost
662
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:07,740
their language skills, so they
came back to pick up their
663
00:48:07,740 --> 00:48:10,890
Mohawk again, and he said, and
then they met their spouse, and
664
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:14,550
he says, I've got a couple of
teachers that I trained here
665
00:48:14,550 --> 00:48:17,400
that work at the immersion
school now, but they got
666
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:22,110
married, and they speak to their
their child now, and their child
667
00:48:22,110 --> 00:48:26,070
speaks better Mohawk than I do,
he says. And he says, the reason
668
00:48:26,070 --> 00:48:30,570
that it's working there is
because those adults already
669
00:48:30,570 --> 00:48:34,200
determined that they're going to
do it, whereas when an adult
670
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,790
puts their child in there and
and they don't speak at home,
671
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:42,720
then the likelihood of that
succeeding has diminished. So he
672
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:46,170
says, but if you have that
language, reinforced, that
673
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:51,390
language in the home, it has a
stronger chance of working. So
674
00:48:51,390 --> 00:48:55,200
that's why I think we need these
adult immersion programs, so
675
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,530
that young people, when they're
raising their kids, that they
676
00:48:58,530 --> 00:49:03,630
then can actually assist them in
everyday life to maintain and
677
00:49:03,630 --> 00:49:06,210
keep and expand their language.
678
00:49:06,690 --> 00:49:07,650
Meagan Perry: Thank you for your
time.
679
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:08,370
Unknown: Okay,
680
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,410
Meagan Perry: You've been
listening to a conversation with
681
00:49:10,410 --> 00:49:13,500
Dr. Alan Corbiere on learning,
teaching and reclaiming
682
00:49:13,770 --> 00:49:16,500
Anishinaabemowin. Dr. Corbiere
teaches in the history
683
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:20,400
department of York University.
For other First Nations, Metis
684
00:49:20,430 --> 00:49:25,230
and Inuit resources, visit
etfofnmi.ca You can also find
685
00:49:25,230 --> 00:49:30,090
resources on etfo.ca and on
members.etfo.ca. We'll finish
686
00:49:30,090 --> 00:49:33,360
the podcast with a few notices
for our listeners. Elementary is
687
00:49:33,390 --> 00:49:36,030
always looking for elementary
age students to lend their voice
688
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:38,400
to the introduction of the
podcast. You can email
689
00:49:38,430 --> 00:49:43,080
podcast@etfo.org to get the easy
instructions on how to
690
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,220
participate. If you are an ETFO
member who needs assistance on a
691
00:49:47,220 --> 00:49:50,940
work related matter, you can
contact your local or ETFO
692
00:49:50,940 --> 00:49:57,000
provincial. The number to call
is 416-962-3836, or you can call
693
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:04,410
toll free at 1-888-838-3836. Ask
for the ETFO duty officer on
694
00:50:04,410 --> 00:50:07,170
call, and they will help you get
the information that you need.
695
00:50:07,860 --> 00:50:10,680
If you like the podcast or you
have suggestions, contact
696
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,270
Elementary at that same email
address, podcast@etfo.org and
697
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:17,310
don't forget to give us a rating
wherever you Listen to your
698
00:50:17,310 --> 00:50:20,970
podcasts. It helps us a lot.
Thanks so much to the students
699
00:50:20,970 --> 00:50:23,850
who kicked off the episode. They
are Niamh and Declan. Thanks to
700
00:50:23,850 --> 00:50:27,210
Grace Naylor, who talked with me
and of course, thank you to Dr.
701
00:50:27,210 --> 00:50:30,060
Alan Corbiere. I'm Meagan Perry.
Thank you for listening to
702
00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:31,770
Elementary. Talk to you next
time.