#017 - Simulation Hypothesis, Quantum Consciousness, and Societal Reflections

[00:00:00] Hey, I'm Davi Santos. And I'm Pasha Kalachev. And this is EitherOr. 
Davi: I know I find myself, uh, have reached a point where I listen and I watch and I make sure I know. And then I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna take this morning off. 
[00:00:29] Pasha: Off of what? [00:00:30] Off 
[00:00:30] Davi: of the news? Off the media, just to be, uh, just so I, I go through without having this like, somber, like, um, part. You know, where I'm just like, like crying over my eggs.
I know, is that also, does that sound privileged as fuck too? Just like the concept that like, yeah, guess what? You're in a situation where if you just want to shut off all of the bad, uh, Stories and just look at the sunshine and sit on a blanket at 1pm because you got up really [00:01:00] late and you just want to read some Gabrielle Garcia Marquez in the sunshine without knowing that there's any war or any flooding happening anywhere.
You can. And you can work on your tan. 
[00:01:12] Pasha: Yeah, and look, I was sort of vicariously living through cholera and finding love in the time of cholera so it's like I'm almost commiserating to the point where I'm doing my, uh, my due diligence on Due diligence, 
[00:01:28] Davi: yeah. Of [00:01:30] being like, a fucking human in society. Yeah, so that's kind of me though, but 
[00:01:37] Pasha: hey look we were born where we were born and we can't really undo that Oh, okay.
Cool segue. I'm reading a book about the The concept of or rather the theory of All life being a simulation. All of us being Healy's 
[00:01:56] Davi: simulation. Ooh, a computer simulation theory book. It's like those, [00:02:00] um, for those who don't know, it's kind of like the Matrix. The idea that it's all a dream, but not only is it a dream, it's actually an electronic one generated by a computer!
And that you're in it, right? Is that the sort of thing? the log line of that philosophical existential concept. Yeah, no, 
[00:02:17] Pasha: that's, that's exactly right. And on its face, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. And as it should, because stretching our imagination to that sort of degree is. [00:02:30] I mean, it could be jarring and obviously certainly improbable, but, uh, let me tell you, I, I'm kind of, I'm sold.
I'm sold on the non zero probability that we are in a simulation. 
[00:02:49] Davi: Well, I mean, first you'd have to define simulation, right? Like in order to say that we are in anything, you have to describe what it is, and one word is probably not enough when it's supposed to [00:03:00] encapsulate an entire existential implication, right?
Well. So, like, what is a simulation, first of all, for us to, for you to be sold that we are in one? 
[00:03:12] Pasha: Okay. All right. So. Without going into 
[00:03:15] Davi: the, the, the weeds too much. 
[00:03:17] Pasha: Without, without going into the weeds, it's like you're playing a video game, and it's an RPG, you boot it up, you go into the game, and voila, you're in this [00:03:30] 3D world where everything feels real, where the, the pixels are actually atoms, um, you get down to, yeah, that's, that's the, the long and short of it.
[00:03:41] Davi: I would have described it the same way. Though, wouldn't we, wouldn't we conclude that even when we are, I mean, we have different simulations running on overlap all the time. Like, the simulation of language that we are applying right now into our communication. Why is it a simulation? Because we're perceiving, [00:04:00] existence through a framework that is pre decided, relatively arbitrary, and conformed so that we both share it.
But it's hyper specific to the English language and all of the biases and prejudices and, and also scope through which it can conceive reality because of the nature of its grammar and vocabulary, right? So, and then, like, we be talking, and then I'm gonna be sneaking over here and checking my Instagram while we talk, which I've never done during this [00:04:30] podcast, but let's say I did, and now I'm suddenly on Instagram, and that's a simulation that we disappear into, right?
[00:04:36] Pasha: Well, right. I mean, of course. And, and, you know, simulations within simulations, it's, uh, within simulations, a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream Exactly. Turtles all the way down. Turtles all the way down. Dreams. Yeah, you can, you can wake up in a dream. You could fall asleep in a dream and have a dream within a dream.
And so, yeah, it's, it's turtles all the way down or simulations all the way up. You know, the um, and I mean, the, [00:05:00] it's, it's interesting because if you think about it, Uh, quantum physics, and you think about, you know, what all of the eastern mystics say. About karma and rebirth and, and, uh, there is a, uh, uh, what is it, uh, there's a, there's a concept in Islam called Al Gurur.
Al Gurur. Al Gurur. Al 
[00:05:23] Davi: Gurur. I voted for him and then Bush won. 
[00:05:25] Pasha: And then gurur is is the root of the word which means illusion [00:05:30] you have maya in hinduism the veils of maya Yeah, which is illusion, you know, it's all it's all this thing. And um, you know I mean dude, it gets pretty wild if you think about it and the fact that you know There are certain people that could be npcs and and are you the npc or are you the 
[00:05:48] Davi: characters?
[00:05:48] Pasha: Yeah, dude You might be the main character and and you get down to the quantum level And you can't break it down anymore until you get to Plonks and that's sort of like where the fabric of this simulation unravels and [00:06:00] there's nothing more else that's that can be found because, you know, you just get booted up and ported up to to whoever the.
I guess whoever the player is. I don't know man. I've been reading this book and I've been seeing everything through this lens and it's been really kind of wild and I played a video game yesterday and I'm like, holy shit, it's true. I'm in a simulation. 
[00:06:22] Davi: Well, it's bizarre. I mean, I dream that it's a video game all the time that I'm in and which only raises questions as to how I must be perceiving [00:06:30] reality in order for the dream to be.
a circumstance in which I see sort of the game, but isn't that also to how we're taught to believe? I mean, yes, if we're in a simulation, but we're also often taught, like, how often are you like, Oh, you got to play the game, right? You got to play the game to win. What is this game that they're referring to?
It's, it's, It's the social exchange and the presumptive rules that exist in this socio economical system in which those who are winning and are successful [00:07:00] are getting those highly valued attributes which in our society happens to be money, power, 
[00:07:06] Pasha: sex, 
[00:07:07] Davi: rock and roll. Uh, 
[00:07:09] Pasha: nine times outta 10 when people are saying, you gotta play the game, they're usually a douche.
I haven't heard anybody say, you gotta play the game. And this is like, yeah, man, I look up to you . You, I guess you knew. I've never 
[00:07:20] Davi: heard, I've never heard a wise man in o toga on the corner of a street say, Hey kid, you gotta play the game. 
[00:07:27] Pasha: Yeah. Unless, unless the game is. [00:07:30] You know, the game of karma, which is, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm confronted with this difficulty in life, what is the lesson here for me, so I can learn and continue to grow.
That's sort of the, the ultimate game, and which, if we go back to the theater of it all, the Maya, the, uh, the illusion, the, the game. Mm hmm. Yes, 
[00:07:51] Davi: exactly. That's, right. Usually that's unplugging. That's like undoing the game. It's like, stop playing this game and [00:08:00] and now let's talk about what's real. Let's talk about, not to say let's talk about what's serious, because honestly sometimes the presumption is that the most serious reality out there has a sense of humor.
So yes, it's sort of like, stop playing and realize that you are in a living room in front of your video game console. Right? It's like, wake up and smell the roses kind of deal. Smell the coffee. Which I'm smelling right now and it's so good. [00:08:30] Yeah, so that's why in, in, in Buddhism, it's, it's the veils of maya, and the concept is that you're supposed to push the veil aside.
Uh, it's to consistently wake yourself up from all of these lower levels of reality. Lower because they are beneath the ground. They, they aren't seeing the light. So how do you see the light? How do you, Take yourself out of one onion layer of the simulation and into one that's less, just as stimulating, but less of a simulation.
How do [00:09:00] you do that? Does it say? Is there a guide or is it, are we trapped? Is this, is, what is the actual moral one line logline of this man's perspective? Because it's one thing to be in a simulation and something else, if you're trapped there, you can't escape or. It's 
[00:09:15] Pasha: a very, um, I mean, it's a very, I don't want to say dry dissertation because the the subject matter is so fascinating, but he doesn't take any stance either way.
He basically weaves all of the reference points Silence is [00:09:30] complicity! Well, all the reference point, all the reference points between, uh, the things that could point to life being a simulation and the comparison between that and actual, uh, game development and MMORPGs and, and logging off and doing things in real life and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. Yes. But yeah, it's uh, I don't know. It's all this is fascinating I think it's a it's a beautiful story and if you if you [00:10:00] want to subscribe to it I think it could it could be beneficial if it doesn't if it doesn't make you mad But there is this one part that's particularly interesting particularly interesting where the comparison is drawn between, you know, logging on to play a round of something with your playmates.
And so you sort of agree upon a time when you're going to log on to play, you know, the next, uh, quest. And, uh, also [00:10:30] the, uh, Uh, uh, reincarnation theory, where you can also choose the people with whom you will, uh, uh, live through life, and you sort of have a predetermined signaling. It's like, hey, you're going to meet me when you're six years old, and I'll be wearing the red dress, and we'll become best friends, and we'll learn through our particular circumstances, but we're going to be doing this together.
Next life together. Together. Yeah. And hopefully there's an 
[00:10:58] Davi: inkling of recognition Yeah. [00:11:00] From this life in that one. Yeah. That's very cloud atlas of them. 
[00:11:03] Pasha: And, and, and also it's, it's nice, it's nice to think that, it is nice because you've, you've, you've met people where you're like, holy shit, I feel like this is my soulmate.
Kind of. 
[00:11:11] Davi: Yeah. I've talked to you for 10 minutes and I feel like you definitely see me. You see me, you know me. Mm-Hmm. . You see me through loads of layers of this, of the onion. And you actually see what I feel is a core aspect of myself. And you did it immediately and intuitively. So, was it because you've seen me before?
Is it because [00:11:30] you will see me again? I 
[00:11:33] Pasha: mean, if you've uh, if you've done any shamanic meditations or you've sat with people who know how to beat drums and, and, you know, whistle through eagle eaves, then, yeah, you'll, you'll. You'll hear that in this past life, you did not know your current spouse. Um, but in the future life, you will.
Which is why you [00:12:00] don't know how to communicate very well. Yeah, which is why you guys are gonna get a divorce, but 
[00:12:05] Davi: hey, 
[00:12:07] Pasha: take the piece back. It'll be better 
[00:12:08] Davi: in the next life. Well, see, that's the thing though. So like, back to the situation being, or forward to the situation being, the simulation. Uh, like in the, the, the.
Concept of karma. It's it's you're supposed to learn these lessons so that you stop getting respond back to like zero Right. Mm hmm, [00:12:30] like even even in the the very sort of bifurcating Christianity sort of game of it of like oh in order to pass the test in order to win the game of life in our Book, you'd be a so called good person and then you go up and then if you fail Then you go down, right?
So, there's still a First, there's the explanation of what the rules are of the game. And then there's an explanation of how do you win, and what winning even means. Or [00:13:00] perhaps, perhaps, it's a circumstance in which you, there is no winner and there is no loser because, but there's still a because. So I still, I think we're only missing now, uh, in this, in the book, in this concept of this author, is what is the concept of winning if it exists at all?
And if there isn't a concept of winning, why not? 
[00:13:24] Pasha: That's, yeah, no, interesting. Well, [00:13:30] if I may just, 
[00:13:30] Davi: um, specify even one more time, like the difference between, uh, I, I race people and it's like, oh, you race, you can perceive racing as like, well, clearly you, if you pass the other person at the finish line, you win.
But you can also perceive racing as I'm challenging myself to beat my last score, regardless of what the person next to me does, right. Playing guitar, like there's no winner if you learn the song or not, or if Especially, uh, connected or not, but you know, in another [00:14:00] framework, there is, if you didn't play any notes that were off key, or if you didn't, uh, or if you successfully played the song for the first time, or if you learn a new song or a new chord, you can conceive that as winning, but you don't have to use that word.
So even in the, in that terminology, right? So how does that apply to the concept that we are in a constant computer simulation? 
[00:14:24] Pasha: Sure, sure, it could be, it could be like a game and by, [00:14:30] I mean, if you, if you take all the information together, the less than zero probability that we're living in a simulation, the fact that all of the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita could be pointing to it.
Islam as well to a certain degree, some Abrahamic religions, all that kind of stuff. You do get to choose. I mean, also in ancient Greek mythology and ancient Roman mythology, there was a lot of allusion to these things, but you do have the ability to, or purportedly you can choose prior to [00:15:00] spawning what your challenge is going to be.
But, um, you know, so you can have a set goal and that would be quote unquote winning. But I remember, There's this one guy, his name is Paul Selig, he is a what's the best way to describe him? He's an author and a mystic, contemporary mystic I would say, he channels What he calls the guides, the voices of the guides, and it's really weird [00:15:30] if you if you want to actually See him on on YouTube as he's channeling.
He actually Whispers the words and then says them as if the guides are speaking through him and then he's catching up and actually enunciating it's really really weird, but The books that he writes are that are channeled by these guides are quite fascinating for anybody looking for some, you know, spiritual guidance.
But anyway, uh, the guides say, and I can't remember what the [00:16:00] question is from, um, from Paul himself, uh, to the guides, uh, but the guides say you should enjoy your body while you are here. You should just enjoy the unicity of it all. We, as guides, do not have a body, uh, but you can feel the ubiquitous love of raindrops on your skin, of the sun falling on your face, and, uh, of, you know, [00:16:30] doing nasal spray ketamine at a soda house on a Sunday, enjoy all of the things while you have the body to enjoy it through.
And um, you know, that's also could be one way that you look at it, which is maximize the gratitude that you are in a body, that you are in a simulation because who knows what comes after. 
[00:16:53] Davi: Yeah, that's very profound. Right? In Vipassana, in its sects of Buddhist [00:17:00] meditation and philosophy, the only channel of focus is your body and how you feel, and the different parts of you.
So presumptively, if you are consistently aware of your body, And in this case, then we slip from awareness to mindfulness, but if you are consistently mindful of what you are feeling and what you are perceiving and the sense, and your senses, then you will be connected to the environment. You're going to be, uh, this complex, and Connection to [00:17:30] what is the real sensation that you are feeling instead of the thoughts that are in your prefrontal cortex cooking up and distracting you and stressing you.
But instead, if you're present and you're feeling the ground and you're feeling your clothes and you're, and you're smelling the smell and you're seeing the sight and you're hearing the sound and you're very rooted in the present, you're very mindful of the present. Which is. Also, holistically, good for the body, good for the soul, good old chicken soup, well, [00:18:00] or, uh, tofu soup.
So, yeah, that's, uh, that's quite lovely, actually. That's quite lovely. And funny enough, that even goes into theatrical disciplines. Uh, which is about the circles of awareness of you as a person in this world. world, whether it is in the performer's world or in the creative world and the story world, it's what are you hearing?
What are you seeing? What do you, what are you feeling? Where are you standing? What's around you? What's immediately around you? What's on your skin? What's in front of you? So it, [00:18:30] it applies that sort of concept. Concept of mindfulness and awareness throughout and it's so lovely and charming that in the end.
It's like well, how do I win existence? How do I it's like actually you just have to open your eyes and open your ears and open your nose and open your right? You just need to be open to all of this and that's That's, that's existence, that's, that's it. 
[00:18:52] Pasha: I think the biggest takeaway from, for me, throughout the years, [00:19:00] when constantly attempting to work through that specific question that we all suffer with, which is, what the hell is the point of it all?
And what can I do to better my lot, uh, in this incarnation? is, I'm terrible at analogies, but almost as if you are on a predetermined path, and you're magnetically, uh, [00:19:30] cinched to it, and the more you veer off, the more it hurts, and then you get pulled back, so, you know, there's, there's very little that you can do other than to Kind of walk towards a set point on the horizon.
And if you decide to screw that, I'm just going to do this other thing. I'm just going to become a scoundrel and, uh, and, and drink all my money away and do all this, then you'll be, you'll end up in a far worse [00:20:00] place. That from there, you will still need to return to the original path. And then if you're like, oh, I'm going to change vocations entirely, just, just on a whim, you know, these sorts of, uh, midlife crises and all that kind of stuff.
Again, you veer off the other way until you realize, eh, I need to come back to this original path. And I think that comes down to intuition. Because, uh, for me, it's always been this sort of, uh, compass that if I listen closely enough, I get. A very [00:20:30] good idea of at least where I should be pointing the bow of my ship, um, and I've also come to know that if I do decide to change course in this other direction, because, you know, it's the popular thing to do, or all of my friends are pursuing this thing and I should be doing that and no matter how many affirmations I say in the mirror and how strongly white knuckled, I can scream at all of the [00:21:00] gods to have this thing, you know, come to fruition, it doesn't work out.
And then I go back to the. The, the original path and everything almost seems to align. So again, I don't know anything about anything that's sort of been my experience of it all. And I've sort of, and with, you know, the notion of you pick your incarnations and this life, you have these sets of challenges and it kind of, makes it a lot easier to look at sort of [00:21:30] people side to side.
It's like, Hey, this person has all of these riches and wealth. I'm like, that's really cool. They have chosen this experience for this life. And like this person just has a really, really difficult. I'm like. That's interesting that their have, that their soul has chosen these lessons to live through. And so it sort of levels the playing field and, um, you know, that we're all in this together.
And I just need to align with [00:22:00] where I'm going personally. 
[00:22:02] Davi: Yeah, I think wonderfully put. I think it seems like we're tied between a sense of predeterminism and free will and you have the free will of walking this path. Uh, but you also have. A certain reality that there is a path that is there. It's not a complete and utter sandbox, but there is a space for it.
But there's also a relationship with certain, uh, undeniable truths [00:22:30] that you can And it also reminds me of frequency. It's also, the way frequency, a wave, is, uh, it's kind of like music. And you can be off key, and it sounds And when you're playing the music, then you discover the, these, the sound and this, and you want to dance and you want to groove and people are awakened and you are too.
So it often feels as if there is sort of notes to our own life and that's where predeterminism is. [00:23:00] And if you want, there's, there's free will to, to do it. And there's also free will to riff around it too. There's, there's space. You don't have to play the melody, right? You can Billie Holiday your way through the song and, and you can still discover all of these other delights.
It also sounds like the alchemist, uh, Paulo Coelho, and that's all about discovering what your, uh, what was the word he used was Lenda or Legenda. Uh, it's, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right. You're a legend. It's like what you're. And once you. [00:23:30] Which is also a fantastic word with great implications and double and triple implications.
It's what is your story, discovering your story, and that your story is something that Already is there for you to uncover and discover and to write, and yet it's also there something that you are writing simultaneously. It's this co authorship with subtly a wink that there is a deeper story and thus a deeper meaning behind the entire thing.
What is the point of all of this is coming [00:24:00] from the deep despair of no meaning at all. And thus no intention, whereas the other side of it is, Oh my gosh, there was a structure to all of this all along, or, Oh my gosh, even if there wasn't a structure in the beginning, now that I've walked my path, I turn around and I see how pristine the structure was.
Curiosity. It's, it's so curious. And, and of course how we feel about it will largely [00:24:30] depend on, you know, How we see that system that we're in, right? Regardless of what may be or may not be any objective truth underneath it all We are always going to be influenced by how we see this picture 
[00:24:45] Pasha: Hmm Yeah, that that be the truth that be is the truth brother the seeming truth the seeming I mean, that's as close as we can get, so [00:25:00] might as well.
[00:25:01] Davi: And then like, talk about physics, there's that idea that like, uh, if something, if you look at it, it's one thing, and if you don't look at it, it's something else. Yeah. And so the question of objectivity actually existing at all is, is very intimately connected with physics. Simulation theory, like objectively speaking, is there something that is objectively true that is true outside or inside in any sort of fashion?
Or is there a chance that everything and anything can be upended when you wake [00:25:30] up into some other life? 
[00:25:32] Pasha: Who knows? You might have been talking about either quantum entanglement or Uh, superposition or is superposition the, the, the whole, um, Schrodinger's cat could be. Um, but yeah, the whole thing with Schrodinger's cat, it's, there's a cat in a box and it could either be dead or alive.[00:26:00]
Uh, you'll only know when you open up the box. Open the box. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. Again, that makes so much sense when you well, are you familiar with the double slit experiment? 
[00:26:12] Davi: I love the double slit experiment Yeah, how it waves and particles double slit experiment. 
[00:26:16] Pasha: Yeah, and yes. Yeah, go ahead. They only Achieve their their final so oh my god.
I'm just gonna entirely butcher this I know I know I know the concept and it's like [00:26:30] When the balls go through the thing in the wall, and then it hits the other wall. God, I'm such a dum dum. 
[00:26:37] Davi: If we work our way backwards, the outcome of this insane experiment is that on a quantum level, particles, uh, It's a particle if we're looking at it, but if we're not looking at it, it's a wave.
It functions in waveform. And they accomplished that through the slit, the hole in the slit. The slitty hole. Yeah, it was just, 
[00:26:59] Pasha: um, [00:27:00] you got the slit, but, uh Okay, so You have a light source or beam of electrons, uh, directed towards this thing with, uh, two parallel slits that cut into it. And behind this, uh, this, this plate or wall, there's a screen that observes the resulting pattern.
So we can, we can all, you're shining a flashlight onto, you know, a wall with two slits, and then you'll see [00:27:30]what light comes through the back. Uh, the The classical expectation is that if the light or if the electrons, um, behaved just as particles, as you were saying, uh, you would see two distinct bands on the screen corresponding to the particles passing through, uh, through each slit.
Uh, but the wave behavior, uh, you get this interference pattern that appears on the screen consisting of alternating bright and dark bands. Anyway, so it's this [00:28:00] whole weird thing. And there's this measurement problem because it's always changing. If you're not observing it, it's one thing. If you are observing it, it almost locks into place, uh, into something entirely different.
And so if you think about how a video game is rendered, you know, if you're thrown into a sandbox, like an open, open world game, the entire game isn't rendered when you're like the entire map isn't rendered, you only [00:28:30] render the things that you see. It's like, uh, driving into the distance, then you see sort of like the mountains start to render as you get closer and closer to them, or you, you know, we can, we can imagine that well, that's sort of what's happening in our reality if we're living in a simulation, and that's how what would describe it.
It's like we look one way, boom, we see a door and we can touch it when we turn away. It's a wave again, and it's this thing, and it's not being rendered until we actually look and feel and touch it and can open and close it. Does that make sense? [00:29:00] Yeah, but then what is the 
[00:29:02] Davi: question to the people who are being really obstinate about this example?
And they're like, 
well, even if you turn around, the door is still there. There is still an objective world where if you turn around from the door, the door is there a hundred percent. But then it's like actually quantum physically speaking. There is a 
[00:29:17] Pasha: sense of like, yeah. Those, those people don't listen to this podcast and, 
[00:29:21] Davi: uh, Yeah, there is, um, there is, quantum mechanically speaking, there is a probability that the [00:29:30] door is not there anymore.
Yeah, yeah. Is that the root of it? That 
[00:29:32] Pasha: the cat is either dead or alive. Yeah. 
[00:29:35] Davi: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes, the rabbit hole goes far deeper than just like the door disappearing. It goes into sort of precepts of existence and potentiality. So 
[00:29:50] Pasha: yeah, well, anyway, to, to make sense of all of this, you know, you have the people who believe in the, who are saying there's a nonzero chance that we're living in a [00:30:00] simulation.
And then you have the physicists saying, F you. Um, actually we live in a multi world. So at any decision point, an entirely new universe is rendered, uh, and it's ever expanding in an infinitely exponential way, which makes, which makes sense on paper. Okay. Like, you can do the math to sort of explain it, but there's no way to disprove it, or prove it, for that matter.
[00:30:30] But the math works out in the multiverse. Anyway, it gets really strange and weird. Um, the book itself is called Dr. Strange, 
[00:30:37] Davi: literally why I think it's called that. The 
[00:30:39] Pasha: book is called, uh, The Secret of Dr. Strange. Sorry, uh, The Simulation Hypothesis, uh, by Rizwan Virk, if, uh, if anybody wants to check it out.
I highly recommend it. It's, uh, it's, it's quite fascinating. 
[00:30:53] Davi: Good ol Rizzi. Yes, and, and it's really lovely how that this book, which feels so rooted in the present, [00:31:00] You know, it's such a, a computer theory, uh, simulation theory, it sounds so of the 21st century, uh, but it has its roots in ancient philosophy and ancient metaphysics, right?
Which is also cross disciplinary and, and, which is even 
[00:31:17] Pasha: more bizarre because, I mean, we're so much smarter. Before, uh, you know, you had like these, uh, these [00:31:30] Sherpas in, you know, sitting up on high mountaintops and just making shit up probably, or not, or they actually were tapped into the game. 
[00:31:40] Davi: People were tapped in.
It's always a relationship between those who are awakened to truths and whatever truth may be. First that we have a presumption that there is such a thing as a truth, but let's presume that there is. Uh, there's, seems like across time, across all of civilization, [00:32:00] across all of relationship, there are those who are, uh, awakened and aware of the truth.
Certain truths and who are even able to transmit them to others and thus bettering the outcome of the lot and the ways in which they experience life and then those who Seem to be in a dissonance of it or who are a little bit off the track When then as a result cause chaos to themselves or to those [00:32:30] around them so even if you're in a Teeny weeny little village.
We will, we will have the people, we will have the people, uh, who are keyed in to the fact that if you pluck this, this plant off, uh, or this leaf off this plant and you put it on a wound, you'll And someone else who will try to push all of the knowledge aside and say listen to me and because whatever I say is better [00:33:00] than everyone just because I'm the best and suddenly somehow then the village ceases to live and to exist because of this like false idol and the concept of falseness, right?
So yes, we are smarter, but we've, we always see that with great intelligent strides, we also take these large steps back. We, we invent, uh, ways of, of generating energy and power grids. So now we, we, we all have the power of electricity in our homes and [00:33:30] our pockets, but then we also create weapons and we're also Now defeating ourselves at the same time.
[00:33:40] Pasha: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's all crazy. If it makes me think of the probability of what is the probability of an indigenous person in the rain forest. Making ayahuasca. It [00:34:00] is so to, to make ayahuasca and ayahuasca is the, the traditional, uh, brew used in, in spiritual and medicinal practices by indigenous people, uh, in the Amazon basin.
Uh, but it combines two ingredients. Uh, you have this, the ayahuasca vine, uh, which contains all these fun alkaloids and then, uh, you mix it. with, um, this thing called chacruna, uh, which I can't remember the, the, the name of the actual name of it, but it's, [00:34:30] it's known as, as chacruna and all that is where the DMT is, um, uh, is contained.
And that's, that's where you get all the, the, the trippy trippies from, but the probability of that. for in the perfect I mean, it's um, uh, it's the same as comparing like Oh, you put a monkey in a room and it'll take it how many years to to write what is it, uh, like Mozart's [00:35:00] Mozart's Sixth symphony, you know, it's like you or you put a bunch of monkeys and I can't remember the exact rule like the you put a bunch of monkeys in a room and then in a Million billion years you will get Mozart's they'll they'll figure it out.
That's what happened Yeah, it's it's it's very much the same because I mean, it's not it's it's a whole but somehow they did it And somehow they know about all the other medicinal properties and, and, and [00:35:30] how, how, how, how nobody knows. Not to call 
[00:35:32] Davi: indigenous people monkeys, it's just an astronomical comparison.
Wow. Dobby. Hey. 
[00:35:40] Pasha: There's 
[00:35:40] Davi: always some crazy people. Let the 
[00:35:42] Pasha: record show that. Let the record show that. Let's be super, super clear. Just in case there's I don't need any lists of complaints. 
[00:35:54] Davi: Also, I'll just take this one moment to apologize [00:36:00] to the lady that was mentioned in the last podcast. Uh, I did not know that you did not actually live in a far off village.
It wasn't my intention to say that your village was so far off that it was unlikely for you to listen to a podcast. It was more along the lines that because you lived so far away and so remote from our, uh, society as it would appear, that the chances of you Discovering a podcast was [00:36:30] so small. So, uh, I apologize.
That's terrible. 
[00:36:33] Pasha: That's like, can I, can we clarify what you just said? 
[00:36:37] Davi: Oh, well, I guess we shouldn't like go into it. Do we? No, no, we don't. We don't mean 
[00:36:44] Pasha: to say the person that we mentioned lives in the So far away that they don't know what podcasts are. Damn Doy. We 
[00:36:49] Davi: know what podcast is. Look, if you put a bunch of monkeys in a room, , they will eventually figure out how to make a computer and they'll eventually find a podcast Red Scare podcast.[00:37:00]
They'll find, they'll eventually find Red Scare Podcast and they're gonna be really pissed off when we, when we look at them and say, how did you find this podcast? Because you shouted them out. You lived so far away. In the Amazon Basin. No, no, no. We didn't mean to offend. Truly with love and gratitude for even, for listening to us.
Uh, honestly. But yeah, it is absolutely, it's crazy. [00:37:30] And also, how inspiring to think too, that it, it is connected. Like the amoeba, the organism that had its first cell uh, and the first polycellular Organism, uh, organelle, right? And leading towards the first sort of pre man ape, leading towards the, the first one that picked up that first bone in like 2001 Space Odyssey and used it as the first tool, leading to, uh, discovering fire and, [00:38:00] and metal and, and then creating a computer and then, or before that, like, creating a piano and percussive instruments and, and finally, Writing, and then writing music, and then writing a symphony.
Like, it's all connected. Like, Lord knows what we're connected to, if we manage to exist for another million years. Like, where would we, and how would we evolve, and what would we discover and uncover? 
[00:38:27] Pasha: Well,[00:38:30]
Consciousness loaded onto silicon proliferation. I mean, it would be, you remember the show altered carbon? 
[00:38:44] Davi: Oh yeah, that, that really cool sci fi show. I didn't actually see all, I think it was an early Amazon prime show perhaps. 
[00:38:51] Pasha: Yeah, it was a, it was an adaptation of another sci fi book. I can't remember the, the actor's name.
No, no, [00:39:00] no, the 
[00:39:00] Davi: author, it was based off of Philip K Dick, right? 
[00:39:02] Pasha: Uh, maybe not actually, 
[00:39:04] Davi: maybe not. Anyway, what about it? 
[00:39:08] Pasha: Look it up? Uh, who knows? Not gonna search for it now, but 
[00:39:13] Davi: Just so we know where the copyright should go at the end of this, yes? 
[00:39:16] Pasha: The, the The, the whole storyline was, you have a sleeve, which is, I may be messing up the terminology, but you have a sleeve, which is the body, and, uh, you have this, [00:39:30] um, I guess this capsule that, that contains your, your consciousness, and, you know, if your body gets old, you can just replace, you can re sleeve your consciousness, and, um, you could have backups of, you know, Of your consciousness, and the only way that you can actually die die is if the, uh, if the, if the capsule is destroyed.
And, I mean, probably that's where we're headed, I think, [00:40:00]
[00:40:01] Davi: most likely. Yeah, we're trying to digitize consciousness. 
[00:40:04] Pasha: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't see. I don't see why not. I mean, I mean, scientists are already messing around with all sorts of different substrates on which to place data and, um, you know, we're, we're starting to butt our head up against Moore's law in terms of how many transition transistors we can place on a chip.
I mean, to Apple is continuously, it's like four nanometer, three nanometer, [00:40:30] two nanometer. And then we're getting into, again, quantum. Quantum realm when it comes to getting even smaller, which is wild, which is wild that we're living in a time where we are literally just touching the quantum for processors.
Um, yeah, but, Yeah, maybe that, maybe that's what it is, who, who knows, you know, we have only a few more years left in [00:41:00] this lifetime, maybe we'll, we'll get a better glimpse in the decades to still here. 
[00:41:05] Davi: Yeah. In this incarnation. 
[00:41:07] Pasha: Or, or it all just blows to shit. Because, hey, let's talk about current political events, like, you know, it's, uh, who knows?
Who knows? Oh, yeah, the midnight 
[00:41:20] Davi: clock, the nuclear scientist's clock to midnight, it's like two minutes from midnight. Dude, 
[00:41:28] Pasha: I mean, [00:41:30] the sable rattling has gone legitimately out of hand. You know, it's like Russia is doing nuclear tests. Uh, I've read an article that, uh, NATO has cleared all of the direct pathways to load basically 300, 000 troops directly to the front line of Russia and Ukraine, you know, they're at the ready.
It's, we have, if not to. keep on beating this horse that's just, just obliterated by [00:42:00] our footsteps already. But yeah, who knows if we'll ever get to that, uh, to that beautiful future. We'll, we'll be able to put our souls in capsules and then be like, Hey, I like this body. 
[00:42:10] Davi: Well, in quantum mechanically speaking, it is a potentiality because we're still here.
So since we're not in the end, uh, it's still possible. Or it's 
[00:42:22] Pasha: happening, or it's happening now, or it's happening now, or it's happening now, you know? 
[00:42:27] Davi: Yes, yeah, yeah. [00:42:30] It's simultaneously happening now, then there's also game over. Happening over there. It's like, which one? Which one's gonna happen to us? I say game 
[00:42:38] Pasha: on.
I, I had that thought of If People, because this happened in, I mean, this happened multiple times throughout the Cold War where there's actually a story about three, uh, submarine or there's a submarine, a nuclear submarine. It was a Russian nuclear [00:43:00] submarine and it was sort of patrolling. And they also have all of the computers that, that say whether or not nukes have been launched at Russia, if any, if any, you know, satellites or whatnot have picked up on nukes flying towards Russia, and to detonate the, the retaliatory nuke from this submarine, you need three people.
And so they look on the, the screens and their computers and they see that [00:43:30] confirmed nuke flying towards Russia. And there's a, an immediate strike back policy with almost all countries. And, uh, they all decided that, okay, confirmed, uh, let's, let's fire back. And the third guy was like, hey, let's wait a second and phone in and see if, if, uh, You know, Moscow is no more before we actually decide to obliterate the United [00:44:00] States.
And Hey, we're still here. So we know how that story ended, but just imagine that happened multiple times and who knows about all the rest of the, the, the instances where that happened. And so I had this thought where if something like that happens, you just won't know. It'll just be like, pop, 
[00:44:19] Davi: done. I lost, uh, I, the story got a little muddled.
I understood, I thought it was like Russia sent, in whose system, who sent the bomb first? [00:44:30] Right, right, okay, so 
[00:44:31] Pasha: Russian, Russian submarine, Russian nuclear submarine gets a notification that, hey, uh, America sent nukes towards Russia. The three guys are like, cause you need three people to start a mission. The three Russians.
The three Russians. Right, to simultaneously turn keys to launch the nuke out of the nuclear submarine. Back in America. Yeah, and the last guy was like, hey, let's just wait a second. And how many times has that happened? And if it does happen where there's either somebody fucks up [00:45:00] or people actually launch nukes, when you get hit, it's just done.
You're done. There's no more. There's just no more. And I was laying in bed at this point and I was like, This wall in front of me would just collapse on me, and I would be no more. So, yeah. 
[00:45:18] Davi: Yeah, it's, uh, I've always thought it was so weird that there's this retaliatory He's like, ridiculous retaliatory strategy.
Like, the globe is already at a peril if a [00:45:30] nuke goes off anywhere. It's not like, Oh, one's country. It's not, it's not a missile that just detonates with the proximity around it from the place where it lands. Like, it's It's in the atmosphere. It's, it's a global catastrophe if a nuke goes off anywhere. So then the concept of we'll just send another one to them is like, Oh, you want two of them to be on earth?
Like you're just basically, you've just reduced the possibility of life. Well, that's the ego. That's astronomically. And [00:46:00] now it's like, let's just make sure we go a little further and make sure that no life is possible at all. 
[00:46:05] Pasha: Well, imagine, imagine the, the, the tough pill that you would need to swallow, and the amount of selflessness you must have and love you must have towards the world to say, while a nuclear missile is in flight towards where you are in this metropolis, with all of the other millions of people [00:46:30] to say, well, It was good while it lasted, but let there be no more killing.
And everybody down the line also has to do that. So you're done. But then there's, you know, the other general that says, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have been trained in warfare my entire life. I have read von Klausowitz from, from front to back a hundred times. 
[00:46:57] Davi: Yeah. It's, 
[00:46:57] Pasha: uh, give me the [00:47:00] goddamn button. So, give me the button, 
[00:47:04] Davi: give me the button, no, in the synchronicity of, of society, right?
They're in sync in creation. They're in sync in destruction. One side of the earth says we're going down and the other side responds saying, hell yeah, we are, or, oh, oh, shit, fine. Hell yeah, or all shit, fine, we are. Right? It's, it's an eye for an eye. It's so low [00:47:30] frequency. Well,
yup. Which is why we gotta amplify the frequency of consciousness on Earth. Everybody just gotta do a little bit of mushrooms. Everybody just gotta hold hands, do a little bit of mushrooms, listen to a little bit of music, have a little bit of a dance. Drink water. Just embrace one another. [00:48:00] We just need to hold hands and hold each other's shoulders and squeeze each other's backs.
Yeah, it's a, it's a crazy moment in society for sure. Uh, crazy, what does that even mean? Just mad because it seems so counterproductive. Uh, we always had this idea that if we stopped aiming at each other and we aimed up, we would be doing so well, we'd be going back into the space races, aiming rockets into the sky as opposed to at each other.[00:48:30]
Competitively, to outdo each other's last groundbreaking scientific breakthroughs. If only we aimed our rockets up instead of at each other, we could advance society. Because right now as you were saying with nanotech and quantum computing, we're making things small. We're aiming our ideas and concentrating them to develop technology inwardly [00:49:00] as small as possible to the to break through chronological order.
sort of the atmosphere of, of inward size to go, uh, the sound barrier, so to speak, of our mind to go from the skull and the brain and that world to thought would be this astronomical, just a funny, uh, ironic term because astro goes for stars and it's the, the biggest thing outside of us, but it also refers to the biggest thing inside of us.
If we're now we're suddenly into [00:49:30] thought land and consciousness land and computing thoughts. So we're accomplishing one part of what can keep the species alive. And the other one is, is that is completing the spectrum of knowledge. And the spectrum of knowledge is the smallest of the small, but also the largest of the large.
And the only way to accomplish the astronomical largeness, the large jumps in our feats of possibility is by aiming outwardly. We're [00:50:00] narcissistically so self conc or concentrating on ourselves and our On each other in this way that is so, uh, deconstructive, aiming our rockets, aiming our fire, aiming our, our bombs, and our tech, and our concentration, that it's keeping us from aiming outward.
And once we aim outward, we do it collectively, and thus we outwardly expand, then we inwardly expand, then anything is possible for people, and for life on Earth, and [00:50:30] outside of Earth, presumptively, when we get there. That's it. 
[00:50:33] Pasha: All of those things that you mentioned take an extreme amount of moral effort and energy expenditure.
Hey, monkeys and the symphony. It's 
[00:50:52] Davi: Monkeys can write Mozart. We can figure out moral compass and of 
[00:50:56] Pasha: course, of course, of course. But it's just easier not to, it's [00:51:00] easier to, to give somebody the cold shoulder. It's easier to clap back at somebody on social. It's easier to launch the retaliatory strike. It's easier to stay in power by watching tens of thousands of people die because you're supporting, you know, a campaign that will.
favor you staying in there. It's just easier. It's easier, easier and easier. And to swallow the ego, to [00:51:30] think about others and to put other people first. It's a rarity because it does take effort and it's. It is that much more difficult. I mean, this is why when you are in a relationship, it's, you know, to, to hear your partner out and to not lash out and to, uh, have nonviolent communication.
It's, uh, nonviolent communication, very, you know, uh, kind of crazy term because what is the alternative violent communication, but nonviolent communication [00:52:00] is a recitation of. you know, what you think that the person is trying to tell you. I mean, it's, it's significantly longer in size, the conversation that you must have to dispel bad vibes between the two of you, instead of just yelling, instead of just yelling, this is my God given right instead of yelling, you know, all of the hashtags that we're, that we're currently [00:52:30] seeing, it takes a hell of a lot of effort.
Hey, This, that's the game, baby! 
[00:52:37] Davi: Yeah, that's the game. Yeah. Yeah, that's, well, that's the, that's the illusion. That's the veil. That's the veil of maya. The veil is, oh, this feeling that I have of self righteousness. And This feeling that I have that you're wrong, and that, uh, you deserve to be overpowered and shook up.[00:53:00]
Uh, and this feeling that I have that if I escalate this, it's in the name of setting the, the scene, uh, straight. And to put my foot down as to what ought to be. It's the whole idea of like violence in order to get to peace. We need to put some violence here. We need to expel it. We need to make it happen because that's the only way it's that's the illusion.
That's the great illusion. And [00:53:30] when we keep falling for it, that's the dissonance of the music. There is no music. That's when the DJ, right? The music goes off the screech. The mic is too close to the audio, to the, the, To the feedback loop, yeah, the feedback. And now it's like, there's the screech, there's no music, the dancing stops.
And then we're monkeys for longer than we're apes for longer than we're, uh, animals with lower learning. We, we go [00:54:00] back. We're reptilian. We're just looking to eat. And we're just looking for. 
[00:54:04] Pasha: That's actually the, uh, the, if I'm not mistaken, the Churchill quote. It said, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Or, uh, Einstein, Einstein attributed to Einstein.
It's, um, uh, world war three will be fought with Atomic weapons, but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones. 
[00:54:28] Davi: Right. We're back into the, [00:54:30] it's like the medieval ages. We have all these glory from the European experience. You know, they had these glorious civilizations and all of this incredible technology.
And then. Barbarism just inward collapse, which led to them forgetting that they had running water and forgetting how to modify the temperature of a space. And now all of a sudden we're peeing into buckets and throwing it outside the window. 
[00:54:57] Pasha: And we still don't know who built the pyramids. [00:55:00]
[00:55:00] Davi: And we still don't know who built the pyramids.
Well, I mean, I was thinking of aliens when, when it was like, if we were to live for millions of years, we of course would figure out how to like leave earth and how to go through just, you know, augment and distort time and space and then go, and of course we would look differently. So I've, I've always been tickled by the concept that if aliens were real, what if they were just us in the future that we would, End up having if we didn't kill ourselves.[00:55:30]
[00:55:30] Pasha: So the book, the book doesn't have a very good answer to what the aliens are, but they Wait. This 
[00:55:39] Davi: book has aliens in it. The computer simulation book? Yeah. Hell yeah. It does Ghost Alien Simulation Without an Alien. 
[00:55:46] Pasha: Uhhuh, . And um, uh, the, there wasn't a good, it was one of the chapters I was like, yeah, it is a pretty weak explanation.
But I think the explanation was sort of like, um. [00:56:00] What was the comparison? Sort of like you're porting into a game to just see on everybody's progress. And so they come and they kind of just see what's going on. Some people see them. Some people do not see the aliens, but the aliens are kind of just here to, to Experience the simulation without actually being in the simulation type of, I don't know, it was, uh, 
[00:56:29] Davi: Old [00:56:30] Testament described those as angels.
They're, they're here to just look in or the, Well, angels, right? It was like the gods. 
[00:56:37] Pasha: Angles are described as the, so you have various computer programs that just do very simple tasks that just, it's just a, it runs one script and that's all it's there to do. And they're, they're called daemons as in the Greek terminology, daemon, angel, the, the helper of the souls, the guides, uh, you know, so [00:57:00] that's how angels and, and spirits and, and, and ghosts that help you along are, are described.
Yeah, the guides. But anyway, Just, uh, smile, be happy, like a Buddha. Limited. All of this is limited. And, uh, let us not forget. 
[00:57:23] Davi: But have faith in the unlimited, the infinite potentiality of every and any course the multi universes and worlds [00:57:30] around us at all times, gives us such an expanse and a sense of possibility, the possibility within the finiteness of the universe.
It's like when you're tripping on mushrooms and then like, I mean, if one were to trip on mushrooms and then you rest your eye on anything and you start just concluding like the wildest concepts of what the world is and what the world could be like through the lens of whatever it is that you're laying your eyes on.
It's like, even if you're in the smallest itty bitty room, if you're in a [00:58:00] box and if you can feel something, if you, if there's any intelligence on any of your senses, if there's any information going in, you can see the entire world and universe through it, through that one bit of information, you untangle the one bit of information and there's information and, and more and more and more in conclusions and wild hypotheses about what the world is.
So, cause it's about just having. Always feels like perspective and like, what does it take to, to [00:58:30] remove the veil? Uh, I guess there's a certain faith that the space isn't limited, even though we are limited, there's a truth in that, but there's also another truth, which is that we're not limited at all.
There's this sort of unlimitedness. 
[00:58:45] Pasha: I think it has to be, there has to be. Ultimately, it's pick the story that makes this the most fun and the most productive. 
[00:58:55] Davi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have fun and be productive [00:59:00] and be merry. Yeah. Thank you, Pasha. Thank you, 
[00:59:04] Pasha: Davi. Until the next 
[00:59:07] Davi: one. Best of luck, 
yeah. Until the next one, good luck.
Hey, hey, hey, 
hey, hey, hey.