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Welcome to Eight Principles Voices.
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Conversations with those who are making a difference.
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I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles.
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Now join me as I welcome this week's guest as they invite us to come along on their journey.
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Hello, everybody.
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It's Larry Johnson, your host on Eight Principles Voices.
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And I'm delighted to have with me a man that I've known for a number of years, the real deal, a guy that does wealth management with a soul, I'll take it that way.
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And his name is Al Mueller.
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I want to welcome him to the show.
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Welcome, Al.
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Thanks, Larry.
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It's great to be with you.
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Well, you know, we've known each other for several years, and uh, and I've always admired your work.
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And there's something you said, maybe I don't even remember you said it to me, but you said it to me several years ago.
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Um, you know, Larry, um I forgot what the number was, but it was something like this.
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You know, we were talking about the inability or uh whatever of nonprofits to really understand donor needs and what what is required there.
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And um you said something about, well, you know, I've got X million dollars sitting on my desk for a nonprofit with enough imagination to use it.
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All right.
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That it's hard.
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And I've discovered also in some of my work that it's harder to give it away than it is to make it uh for these people.
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Um, you want to speak to that a little bit and with your own clients?
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Sure.
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Well, I think it goes back.
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We have quotes all the way back to Aristotle that would say it's harder to give away money than it is to make it.
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And certainly uh Andrew Carnegie said the same thing more, and then more recently, people like Michael Bloomberg and and uh Bill Gates, they've all said, and and Warren Buffett have all said it's harder to give away money intelligently than it is to make it.
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Now, you could go to the top of a building and throw dollar bills out or something like that to give it away, but but to give it away intelligently and to do to have things, to have sustainable life change happen, which is a goal of most of our clients, it's very difficult because uh it life is even life change is difficult, and the organizations don't usually start with uh an analysis of what the cause, the root cause of the problems are.
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Therefore, they can't test solutions against that.
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I think in in business, Mr.
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Market will tell you if you've got something right or wrong.
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Uh the nonprofit sector, you can make um emotional appeals and find generous people.
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Certainly in the U.S., uh we're known as a generous country.
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Um, I think we could do a lot more, but we're it's we're more generous than most countries around the world.
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But you can write appeal letters or you can get on TV and show pictures of dogs being harmed or you know, people starving or whatever, and you'll get money.
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Whether you are doing an effective job of solving those problems or not, it's it's the donors sometimes don't get any chance for and there's not a feedback loop for the donors to know if their money is is well spent.
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Um well one thing that um I've often said, and you can you can you can respond to this, that the people, especially as we get up into the upper levels of wealth and and income, certainly, um it's not about it's not about money to them.
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It's just really not about the money, it's about the impact they're gonna have.
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But more importantly, it's it's what is it that is what as Jesus would say, what is it that they're their pearl of great price?
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What is it that really makes them feel fulfilled?
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You see, that's what it is.
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And so I say to people, if you can give your donors at any level experiences, however you like to pronounce however you like to define that word, that they cannot purchase, they can't buy it.
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You see, the money is no object then.
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Um it just cut it flows because it's not about the money.
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And so many nonprofits uh make it about the money, and they make it about the money to the point where the source of that money becomes objectified.
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Um you've seen that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah.
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What in your view would be one or two things that your your average regular garden variety nonprofit could do on a simple basis that would begin to attack that issue, that problem?
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Well, I think fortunately today we have such great technology.
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I mean, we've gotten videos from the middle of Tanzania from a school that was uh called Under the Same Sun that was helping albino kids in Tanzania.
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Albino kids were literally being hunted for body parts, and there's a woman there who it has a school that both educates these kids and protects them.
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But she created a video just using an iPhone that that brings me to tears whenever I watch it and certainly blessed our the donor who supported the school.
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And um, again, I think technology giving people good reports back for the use of their proceeds is uh you know, I think it's it's very important.
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But it's also you ask many uh nonprofits how much they spend on on reporting, you know, where's the line item in their budget for reporting?
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And reporting keeps you know donors interested, they it's it's good for your donor retention.
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Uh I mean, there's so many good things.
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And sometimes I would tell a nonprofit leader change the word reporting to blessing.
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You know, reporting is reporting really is blessing.
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And so I think every nonprofit, certainly in the faith-based sector, and probably outside of that, would say, Yes, we would like to bless the people who support our work.
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Okay, well, do that by good reporting, very, you know, robust, feature-rich stories and numbers.
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You know, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't have an allergy to numbers.
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You should put numbers in there and you should put stories in there.
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And it's a combination.
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And so it because people, I think the best donors are ones that use their head and their heart.
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I think God gave us both.
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He didn't say pick one.
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And so use your head and your heart.
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You should have an emotional connection to these organizations you support, and you should have an intellectual connection.
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Uh, both both are very important.
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You know, um, you you touched on the need to um uh keep your keep your donors informed, to you're really blessing them when you when you talk about the the good that their investment has done.
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You're blessing them.
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And too often uh when nonprofits do that, they do it with one hand behind their back.
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Let me even what I'm talking about.
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How many times have you received a letter from an organization you've supported and they thank you?
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And in the same letter is another ask.
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It it happens all the time.
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It happens all the time, and it's uh it it it's one you just it negates the the the sincerity of the thank you.
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It's thank you, let's have another one.
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And you know, the nonprofits that feel that have a transactional relationship with a a donor, it's kind of like they're trying to figure out the donor's ATM code and and get get and get and get money out of them.
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I mean, that's not, you know, their best relationships are transparent and accountable relationships between the recipient and the funder.
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And so it's not based on how much money can I get out of you.
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And I've even heard horrible stories from donor development uh organizations that have told uh organizations they should do things like have 13 monthly appeals because older people will forget if they gave that month or not.
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And they'll they'll do instead of 12 monthly appeals, they'll do 13, or they'll have two year-end appeals.
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They'll have a fiscal year in and it'll end in June 30, and they'll have a uh calendar year-end, and and they'll they'll make two year-end appeals to to donors.
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And so I think there's things that are sort of that I would consider manipulative at a minimum, and perhaps even dishonest.
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And um, and those those organizations, you know, sadly, they still they don't really go out of business.
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I mean, that's the nice thing about the the marketplace is if you have a really bad product or service, you'll go out of business.
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Um, in the nonprofit space, you can exist for a really, really long time.
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So well, you know, the overall average first-year renewal for for C3s in this nation is just hovers right at 40%, 39 to 40 percent.
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Now, and so I pose the question a little differently.
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How many businesses do you know that could stay in business, losing 60 percent of their customers every single year?
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Be tough.
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Be tough.
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I mean, anybody who analyzes businesses look at customer acquisition costs, and you know, someone who's losing that many existing customers would be through the roof to try and keep replacing those and getting new ones.
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Well, and it is, it's a it's a factor of of order of magnitude, Al.
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That it it's about 10 times the cost uh to acquire a new donor as it is to retain a current donor.
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Yeah, and yet the the conventional thinking is we need more donors, more donors, more donors.
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And that's because these people aren't being brought in as investors.
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I call them investors, Al.
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I don't even call them donors anymore.
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Um, because they're investing in something that's important to them.
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Correct.
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The key is what is that?
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Yeah, do we really know what it is?
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And they want they want to see a social and spiritual return on investment.
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You know, they want to see things happen.
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So our our our normal metric is what what level of sustainable life change have you accomplished?
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And if you haven't accomplished that, then you mean again different organizations have different approaches.
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You can, you know, you can keep pulling people out of the river downstream, or you can go upstream and build a fence so they don't fall into the river.
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But you could also do both, you know.
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I mean, you can call you can look at root causes of a problem uh and see what you can do to attack the root causes, so there's less of those, and then downstream the people that have already been affected by the problem.
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I mean, you know, you can you can put nicer pillows in the homeless shelter, or you can try to help people not be homeless in the in the beginning.
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So I think organizations need to look at both.
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I mean, some are called more specifically to one side of the up or the other, but but we do need to see ask a ministry what is the problem they're trying to solve and what is their their proposed solution.
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What what is the I'm reaching back into my into my uh uh uh early life.
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What what's the uh what's the hymn?
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Rescue the perishing.
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Well, what's the hymn that's that's a part of?
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I can never remember it.
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Not yeah, I'm just not not in my him him uh uh uh random access memory is is taking over for me these days.
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But uh yeah, but rescue the perishing is a phrase from the hymn.
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And so you there's rescue the perishing, but then you know there's the other one that talks, it's the uh it's the other half of it, is that you keep people from getting into that situation in the first place.
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Um uh that's uh so tell me a little bit about of course we're not talking names here, but tell me tell me a little bit about the the kinds of clients that you work with.
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Yeah, we're fortunate to serve generous families.
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I would say their their common denominator is they want to make a difference, not just a donation.
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Uh they want to give to things that work.
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So last year it would be about 800 different organizations receiving gifts that total about$100 million from our clients.
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We serve about 35 ultra-high capacity families, and uh they're multi-generational.
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They're one of the other with only one or two exceptions, they're first generation wealth creators.
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Uh, we like working with wealth creators because they bring intellectual capital, spiritual capital, social capital, and they they're they're great problem solvers.
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I think almost by definition, if you've in business made a hundred million dollars, you're really good at solving some problem.
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And, you know, that's that can be that can be carried over into your philanthropy.
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And so I think the people that want to work with us are interested in solving big problems and uh are willing to put big money.
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I think another feature of them is that they want to go narrower and deeper.
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Um, I think that they've all written a mission statement.
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We call it a joy-filled giving profile, and that allows them to say no to certain things and yes to the things that are most important to them.
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And I think that a donor does have once they do that, once you write your mission statement, it gives you a lot more freedom to say no, because as a high capacity family who's known to be charitable, you're gonna you're gonna be inundated with requests.
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I mean, that's that that's just a given.
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And you know, they're not bad things.
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People are gonna ask you for money for good things, but they may not fit you.
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And so, you know, only God has the the bandwidth and the financial resources to deal with all the things out there.
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So you as a family can pick a subset of those things and then go deeper and with fewer, and um, and you'll get and you'll get better feedback.
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I mean, that's we've said it a number of times, but but the idea of getting reports back from a few organizations.
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I mean, if you gave, you know, think about a way to give away a million dollars back to your early beginning, it was about how hard it is to give away money.
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One person might say, I want to give away a million dollars.
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They might make a hundred ten thousand dollar gifts.
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Well, who in the world could keep track of a hundred organizations?
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I I I certainly couldn't.
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Um, and at the same time, you make ten thousand dollar gifts, you probably aren't going to make a significant difference anywhere.
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No, but you could also do a million-dollar giving by making ten gifts of a hundred thousand dollars.
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Yes, you could probably keep track of ten organizations, you could probably you know get robust reports back from those ten, and you would know that you that you made a difference.
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But again, uh you know, some people would prefer to give everybody a door prize in ten thousand dollars and and make and make and make a lot of friends versus saying no to people.
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I mean, that can cause relational tension or friction.
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So well, sometimes if they're giving uh door if they're wanting door prizes, what they're gonna do is then they're gonna fill up their mailbox.
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Their mailbox would be full.
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I've I've I've walked into people's before we started working with one or two families.
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I walked into the the desk at his office and I saw this gigantic stack of papers that I think would have probably killed somebody if it fell over.
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And I said, What is that?
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He said, That's all the grant requests I've gotten.
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And I said, and and that was their uh modus operandi was they didn't respond.
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They didn't say yes or no, they just let them pile up.
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And I think that this guy probably lived in fear of somebody calling him and saying, Hey, what about my grant request?
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What are you gonna do with it?
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But you know, he he was in firmly in neutral, you know, he wasn't saying yes and he wasn't saying no, but essentially he was saying no by by not responding.
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But but these requests just and it weighed on him.
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I mean, that that that emotional inbox was it was definitely weighing on him because he knew everybody asked him for money and he hadn't said anything.
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Sort of like a passive aggressive approach, yeah.
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And I'm sure there were a lot of things that were quite worthy in that stack, but the question is you have to make decisions.
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Now, I want to go back to something you said before.
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You work intergenerationally, so I presume then you're working with more than one generation to train them in the use of philanthropy and the use of money.
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That's ideal.
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Ideal.
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You know, the families have um ask us to involve their adult children.
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Um, sometimes their children are younger and will go on trips, uh site visits, and things like that.
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But uh, if we're gonna operate a little bit more like a foundation uh staff or uh or team, uh if they have voting privileges, that probably comes at about 18 years old and up, um, they can bring ideas to the table and the family will work.
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But you know, training the families on good communication skills, good responsibilities uh to work together is really a big part of our.
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And I would say that it's hard to do it on your own because um it's not a level playing field.
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What we've experienced when we work have a family meeting, we'll prepare a board book so that the kids and the parents and even possibly grandparents will all have the same information so they can have a meaningful discussion about a nonprofit request, the organization itself, because they all have the information that they can pre-read a week before the meeting and look it over and make it, you know, start having meaningful conversations.
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Because I think one of the drawbacks to family philanthropy is the kids will say, Hey, mom and dad, you already know about all these all the stuff about these charities.
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We don't.
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Why are we even here?
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We're not adding any value.
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And so to take away that frustration, we kind of think of ourselves as a staples easy button that the the kids can put an idea out, we can do the due diligence, they the family can have a meaningful discussion, they can make the gift, we'll chase down the reports, and they can celebrate.
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So it's a it's a virtuous circle in that in that sense.
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Um so is there an attempt to, I mean, I guess everyone has their own their own goals, but are we talking about um uh wealth that is spent down in one generation, or are we looking at multi-generations where the wealth transfers and the and the administers of that wealth are intelligent and continued the tradition?
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Well, I think it's I think scripture is clear about the need for parents to train their children.
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And and actually the the Hebrew word for train in Deuteronomy is sharpen like an axe.
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So you take raw material, but it's a repeated action.
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You don't sharpen an axe by just going over it one time.
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No, you know, you you need to sharpen it over and over.
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So that's that's training.
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And I think training for your children is action.
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You know, the military in the fog of war, you've trained.
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You don't have to think about or read a book about shooting a weapon or doing something.
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You've trained enough times that it's it's really automatic.
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If you aren't trained, you're dead very quickly.
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Yeah, you're either trained or dead.
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That's that's a good way to look at it.
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But I think in philanthropy, the children need to be trained.
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And so whether they take over a large responsibility for a large sum of money or not, I I guess that's an open question.
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I think more of our clients have decided they should spend down uh in their foundations a big portion of this year, of their generation's wealth creation.
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And and I would say if they don't spend it down, they probably need to have a sunset because I have yet to come across very many second and third generation kids that are really excited about taking over the huge responsibility of giving away large sums of money.
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In fact, I I've there's a lot of pushback in generation generation two and three saying, hey, mom and dad, if you leave us$100 million to give away, it's a lot of work, number one.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.559
Number two, it's going to screw up our relationships because everyone's going to come after us for money.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:57.759
We don't want that.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:08.960
So, like I said, uh it's it's a probably a rare scenario where the kids are really excited to take over the responsibility of giving away huge sums of money from mom and dad.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:19.680
Well, I think one of the few exceptions to that would would be a uh a family that's definitely kept their wealth over generations, that would be the Rockefeller family.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.119
Um, and the way they administer it through their insurance model.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.480
Are you familiar with that?
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:25.359
I'm not.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.119
I know they have a pretty significant staff to go along with family members.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:41.440
So I I guess if you are able to staff it up and have the children be more involved at a management level than a than a administrative level, you could probably give them some more joy in that.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:50.960
I don't understand all about it, but it's my understanding that the uh members of the family do not get direct access, but it's fueled by the insurance vehicle.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:59.200
They will buy whole life insurance, it's paid up at the beginning of an individual's life, and that's used as a way to draw against.
00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:05.839
They get an opportunity to do to create wealth, they get an opportunity to draw from that, and of course, if they fail, that's it.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.680
But they begin to and then they they grow in that responsibility over time.
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:20.880
That's as much as I understand, but it's you it's a it's a it's an insurance model that's being used, uh unlike say the Vanderbilts or the other Gilded Age people that pretty much the money's all gone now.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:36.319
Um yeah, the Vanderbilts, I think they said, I think there was a gathering sometime in the 50s or 60s, it was 160 Vanderbilt heirs, and there was out of that, there was one millionaire out of the 160 of the one of the wealthiest families of all time.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.079
So yeah, wealth, yeah.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:49.119
If you don't train your children both in the philanthropy side and other other factors, uh you know, wealth may not be something that's a positive for the future generations.
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.039
Um they don't have a yeah.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.599
What is it, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations, isn't that the aphorism?
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.480
Um and it's pretty have you seen enough in your career to see some of that, haven't you?
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.039
Yeah.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:08.640
Well, I uh again, it's I I think it's wealth doesn't um you know enhance character, it just reveals it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.759
And um, you know, and it will yes.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.160
I I I want to make sure we emphasize that.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:18.960
There's this common misnomer that that that money changes you, it does not.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.839
It simply clarifies who you already are.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.599
Well, and I and accentuates it.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.279
It actually will accentuate it.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.640
I mean, you'll if you are generous with a little, you'll be generous with a lot.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.359
If you were stingy with a little, you'll be stingy with a lot.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:36.880
So it it doesn't, it really doesn't fundamentally change character, it just accentuates it.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.119
It's fuel, or as you said, clarifies it.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:39.279
Yeah.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:40.720
It it it's fuel.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.480
Um, you know, we could be a little more frank, and I could say you just to be a bigger jerk.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.079
If you're a little jerk, you'd be a bigger jerk with more money to do it with.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.880
Exactly.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:49.920
That's all it is.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, because the scripture makes it very clear that money does not have moral quality, it's the use of the money that has the moral quality, and that's it it it and so.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:10.559
That you know our Lord you know will uh bestow that on people, and that's an obligation and an invitation to do great things, yeah, is what it is.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.160
And well, it's a responsibility.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:20.480
We have a responsibility to steward God's resources, he's entrusted to us for some period of time, and um you know, we'll give an account.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:27.440
I mean, we all have to, we should all live in it you know, with an idea that we will give an account for what we did with the resources, both time and treasure.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.640
So well, uh it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve, where they were given to the garden.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:39.119
Let's be productive, you know, you know, prep populate the world, do these things, take care of my my creation here.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.160
That's what our what our mandate really is, of course.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.000
As we as we know, sin entered the picture and things kind of went haywire.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.160
But that wasn't uh that wasn't the original design at all.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:23:10.079
Um if you were giving advice to a nonprofit executive who wanted to know how do I treat no two things, how do I attract people with means, and two, how do I treat them when they come when they express interest?
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:11.759
What would be your advice?
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:28.799
Well, I I don't want to uh step into your too much into your uh world and realm, but um I you know when I get asked for advice, I say I've got my formula for development for ministry leaders or development leaders would be the three Gs.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:34.559
And first of all, number one G is do great communication.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.880
And and um, you know, great communication is really important.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.119
Do great, and you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself, am I doing great communication?
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:45.440
Number two would be, am I doing great ministry?
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:50.240
You have to ask yourself, take a fierce you know, inventory, are we doing great ministry?
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.359
And then finally, the third G is meet great people.
00:23:53.519 --> 00:24:00.079
And great people are they are sometimes people of means, but the great people are the people that have passion about what you're doing.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.839
If you if you if you do great ministry, great communication, and meet great people.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.559
I I I've told people this, and I remember one woman, she called me back and kept her voicemail for a long time.
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:14.799
She said, I did that, and he asked me how much money I needed.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.640
I didn't even have to ask him.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:27.200
And so so I would just say I try to simplify things, and so I would just use the three Gs of great people, great communication, and great ministry.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:33.279
And you know, again, great communication probably could be articulated a little bit more as both internal and external.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.599
You have to internally communicate so your team knows exactly what's going on.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:49.599
But I think there's a lot of times people's external communication is pretty limited, you know, when people really don't understand the scope and and scale and results of your ministry, then you haven't done great communication.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:57.519
Well, um uh laying her on to that, uh, you know, I'm I'm the A Principles guy, and principle two is begin at the beginning.
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:05.200
And that's essentially communicating who you are and what you do in a way that the recipients will understand.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.920
They will understand, not you.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:22.880
Um how many times have we either heard nonprofit people speak about an issue or they've we've read their website, and it's a lot of uh what I'd call professional gobbledygoop, uh, in-house language, uh, too much detail, overwhelming people.
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.000
Uh, and it's not no, what is it they really want to hear?
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.000
What is it, what's important to them?
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:36.720
Uh well, and this would be hard for some ministries to think about, but even you know, does your name communicate well what you do?
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:55.119
We we've we've looked at so many different organizations, and uh, you know, we used to think of what we should have like a little like slot machine where we'd pull it down and and generate names, you know, like world global concern or you know, international uh hope something or other.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:09.039
I mean, it just there were like buzzword added to buzzword added to buzzword, and it's like uh you know, somebody gave me, I don't even want to use their name, but somebody gave me the name of the day, and I said, that tells me nothing about what they do.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:14.480
I I mean, I there's nothing that's that I understand what they do, and from the name.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.079
I mean, uh uh, you know, and I guess in business, maybe you can figure out.
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.119
I mean, who would have thought a name like NVIDIA would mean something?
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:34.240
But but, you know, so maybe it's okay to pick these names out of a hat, but if you can come up with a name that tells people um what you do, um, you know, I remember we I had to name our own company, excellence in giving.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:41.839
I I came up with that as I was listening to Rush Limbaugh talk about excellence in broadcasting, the EIB network, excellence in broadcasting.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.720
That was I said, you know what, I want people to be excellent in giving.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.599
So we're gonna use that name, excellence in giving.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:55.119
It it, you know, I mean, it may be a little bit confusing, but I think it has a standard and a and an explanation of what you would you would get if you work with us.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:03.599
So now, are are you totally on the um the philanthropically advisement side or do you do uh also uh wealth management?
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:15.759
Well, the firm that uh purchased Excellence in Giving back in March is a is an investment firm, one assent out of Birmingham, Alabama, and there are people on that team that are doing the wealth management side.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.200
Excellence in Giving doesn't.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.200
Excellence in Giving is purely on the philanthropic advising side.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.400
So we help families make their charitable grants.
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.720
Uh we're we're not uh I came from the wealth background side.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:47.200
I think Larry, you I mean my I spent 15 years in New York and Chicago with Morgan Stanley and a few years with UBS, the big Swiss bank, but um left left that career to start excellence in giving in 2002 and really have concentrated on the uh distribution side of that rather than actually accumulation side.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:52.640
And you have probably the war wounds to show me about uh working in investment banking, don't you?
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.359
Uh you know, I started in 1984.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.720
Uh Morgan Stanley was a privately held company, it was just a partnership, wasn't even a publicly traded firm.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:05.519
So in the 80s were a pretty wild, there's been a number of movies made about it.
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.720
So yeah, I've we got I got a front row seat on that.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.680
So yeah.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.599
Um so you actually lived in Manhattan for several years.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:15.440
Uh in Connecticut, yeah.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:16.079
Manhattan.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:22.960
Uh 80 Madison Avenue was our first address, and then up in uh in the Darien Darien, Connecticut.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:23.440
So yeah.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.000
Yeah, well, Darien's a delightful town.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.480
You know, I went to uh Yale as in graduate school and we'd go through Darienne.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.640
You have to say it just right out, Darianne.
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.400
Darianne, you know, that that last little emphasis.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:46.000
Um, so tell me a little bit about um now Excellence of Giving is doing great work, and you you've been very pleased about that.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:50.319
And but you don't strike me as the kind of person who's just going to be resting on their laurels.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:51.920
Um, where are you going next?
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.079
What's what's next for Excellence of Giving?
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.359
What would you like to accomplish?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.000
Well, I you know, we're we're definitely trying to hire some more people to interface with the families.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:08.160
I mean, we need we need more people to quarterback the relationships, which is a hard, hard thing to have be a trusted advisor for those families.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.880
And um, but uh I think there's probably more international giving to be done.
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:20.000
I uh uh last I'd probably say our clients are 80% domestic, and that's in their own communities and around the U.S.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.319
and maybe 20% internationally.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:35.839
Um, I think internationally is harder because it's you're a little more removed from it, but I think there's some really good opportunities around the world, and um we need to explore that a little more and bring that uh bring that back to to the U.S.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.200
uh donor community.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.039
Uh but I I'm also hoping that we can do some large-scale funding.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:46.000
I think that there's uh some of the terms now are called big bet philanthropy.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:54.559
And you know, we've had clients that have ability to give a hundred million dollars to something, but they would it would probably wouldn't be to one organization.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.599
It would be to a collaboration, if you will.
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:09.599
So for instance, if you want to, if you were really passionate about trying to reduce recidivism, you'd you'd work inside the prisons to have a group like prison fellowship, work with the the inmates.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.960
When they had a life change, they were ready to leave the prison.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.519
You'd have them come in, live in a halfway house.
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.599
It would be a very supportive environment.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.920
You'd have a job placement program.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:33.039
And I think if you if you started building those sort of continuums of care in different topics and have the organizations sort of, you know, work in their respective segments, I think you could make a difference.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:49.680
So I'm we're hoping to work with some ultra-high capacity families that say we want to make a difference in a certain topic and then put the right teams of nonprofits together to work together and to see bottom line the results come out the other side.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.599
So I think that would be something I'd be really excited about doing.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:58.079
Um, and I, you know, we're just there's so many things that you could work on, problem solving.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.519
Oh, yes, there are.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.039
Well, let me let me respond to this, uh, not to be the contrarian.
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:09.839
What would you say to um what's happened with uh uh Bill Gates pulling back from that kind of giving?
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:15.359
He was really into these making these big splashes for a while, and I always kind of pulled back for reasons I don't know.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:23.680
So I just Well, I think I think they actually, you know, that I'm not sure I know a lot about the Gates Foundation, but I would say that they had some successes and they had some failures.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.640
I mean, you know, their theory of change about education uh was was failed.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.640
I mean, they they tried a lot of different things.
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:36.160
They said, you know, you know, high schools were too big, so they tried to get to be made smaller schools.
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.240
I mean, there have been there have been failures.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:51.200
I mean, the founder of a group called Netscape, Larry Um Barksdale, uh, Jim Barksdale, put uh a hundred million dollars into literacy efforts in Mississippi, and you know, they failed.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:04.400
I mean, but and you have uh Steve Jobs' widow um you know deciding that she's gonna transform education, and one of her key advisors is the former superintendent of the New York public school systems.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:11.920
I mean, Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs would would roll over in his grave if he said the guy who caused the problem is not gonna be the guy who fixes the problem.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:22.799
I mean, to me, a lot of these problems don't get solved because they're they they work within the existing system, which is broken, and I've never seen a pipe get fixed by pushing more water through it, you know.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:23.680
I love it.
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:24.240
I love that.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:41.440
So so that's what does so I but I do think that you know if you went to a different uh person like a Tom Siebel from Siebel Systems, he's the founder of the Montana Meth Project, and he looked at the meth you know addiction in Montana and a few other states and said, you know, what are we gonna do?
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:47.440
And they realized that kids were dying by it's almost like fentanyl today, but kids were dying by trying it once.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:53.759
And so the Montana Meth Project said, We're gonna scare these kids with the reality that you could try it once and die.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:58.400
And so they had these, you know, and how bad your life was on meth.
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:00.559
And they they they were successful.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.519
I mean the meth use in a lot of those states went way down.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:12.319
I think it was adopted by six or other six other states, but he put a little bit of money on the research side and then found an effective solution.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:13.839
So I think it can be done.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:23.279
But back to back to your comment about I mean, Gates had great success with uh things like you know, malaria, um getting vaccines where there weren't any vaccines.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:31.599
I mean, there's some pretty simple um, you know, I mean, there's some things, but but education, they they rate themselves as a C.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:46.240
And um, I remember uh at a we were at a philanthropy roundtable conference, I don't know, eight or ten years ago, the fellow from the uh Walton Family Foundation said, we put a billion dollars in education and we can't figure out a single place where it made any difference.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.839
And you know, Annandale, uh the the readers digest.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:01.440
I mean, there's there's different places people have put money, but I would say the problem is they put they think, unfortunately, like the government, that if you just put more money behind something, yes, things things are gonna get better.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.440
And that's that's definitely not true.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.279
There's not a shortage of money.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:16.639
I mean, Washington, DC has the highest cost per kid in public education, and probably the lowest, you know, the results from the grades, the the the testing and things like that.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:19.119
So that well, that's you played into my hand.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:25.199
That was the answer I was looking for, is that you can't solve a problem by simply throwing money at it.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:26.480
Um absolutely right.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:32.400
Uh there's got to be some more nuanced thinking about how that money is applied and how it's progressed.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.039
I I love that.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:34.800
Yeah, you you played into my hand, Al.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.519
I love it.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.199
And it doesn't happen too often.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.280
But no, it's you're right on, Larry.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.440
I mean, that's that it it money does not solve.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:48.239
I mean, you have to be smart, and but but smart money can, if you in smart thinking, can solve problems.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:51.280
I mean, there yes there are examples.
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.360
I mean, there's one in Chicago.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:01.440
Uh, these guys said, why are single moms living in these like you know, daily or weekly hotels with their kids or living in their cars?
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:09.360
And they said they studied it and they found out that the problem was that women could never get ahead enough to get first and last month's rent in a security deposit.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.199
That was that was prohibitive for them to find to get into an apartment.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.519
They could pay their rent, they were probably paying more in some of these flea bag hotels than they really were.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.199
They would in a hotel in a thing, but they never could get so this group came along.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:29.440
Their model was we will be first and last month's rent in a security deposit on your behalf for these, you know, a few apartments.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:34.639
They put three or four women in these apartments, they put a social worker to talk to them and their kids.
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.880
They had the women work together to do babysitting, grocery shopping, some different things.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.519
A very low-cost model to solve this problem.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:50.320
But but they, you know, they looked at it, they found out what the the problem of the root cause was a problem, and they went after it in a very intelligent way.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.639
And they didn't they didn't spend tens of millions of dollars building an apartment complex or something.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:55.920
They solved this problem.
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.920
That's the government's response.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:00.719
Let's just spend uh throw money at a new company.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:01.280
Absolutely.
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:12.400
Absolutely throw it at the uh well and then the other you know reminds me you're talking about uh understanding the problem, and these people, these women had this threshold they could never get to.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.119
Correct.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:31.519
And so what came to my mind was the whole payday loans business, you know, these these userous lenders, um, who in in my own city where I live, I attended uh one of the chambers uh finance uh I was invited to be a part of this finance board.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.079
And this man actually defended these creeps.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.920
Oh, well, you know, it's free market and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they deserve what they get.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:39.760
I just wanted to go, I want to look at this guy.
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:41.840
Do you have any idea what you're saying?
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:47.440
You know, not only is it is it revolting to listen to, but it's not even good business, Al.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.000
You don't grow the community or the or the or the economy that way.
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.079
You it's per it's parasitic.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:54.800
That's what it is.
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:55.760
It's wrong.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:08.159
And you know, I mean, there's again, thinking about smart solutions, there's a uh ministry we've supported up in uh Denver uh that probably will try to expand out in other cities, but called Hope House, and they help teen moms.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:17.280
And one of the things that broke my heart was hearing that a teen mom, only 2% of them get a college degree, even an associate's degree, a nursing degree.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.800
Well, it's hard to support yourself without a college degree of some type.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:26.800
And so they have these classes um or at least some sort of uh focus training of some sort.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.199
Correct, some sort of training, vocational training or whatever.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:41.199
But they actually at their location, one of the things that they do with their classes, they have child care for the little kids and they have a gigantic, I think it's eight washers and dryers.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:48.079
So literally the women can go to class and do their laundry and have their children cared for all at the same time in this complex.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:52.239
Now, who would have thought that washers and dryers would be part of but part of the solution?
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.440
But it obviously is.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:38:01.920
You know, if you can go to class for two hours and do your wash your laundry at the same time for the single mom, that's a very efficient strategy.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.440
You know, it isn't, you know, you and I probably wouldn't think about something like that.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.519
But they said, hey, what do the single moms need?
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:08.480
This is what they need.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:14.960
So they have a place where they can get a meal, they can get their education, they can get their kids watched and their laundry done.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.079
I mean, it's it's spectacle, it's spectacular.
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:18.880
I love it.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:19.519
I love it.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:20.639
Yeah, I love it.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.920
You know, Al, you know, I'm gonna have you on again soon.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.079
We've just gotten started here, okay?
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:32.719
So I I need to sort of draw it to a close, but uh I do want to do this again very soon.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.079
Um uh, but I want to thank you for spending time with us today.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:41.760
I know that my viewers and listeners will enjoy this.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:46.320
Um, and so um uh any parting comment you'd like to make, Al?
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:57.440
Well, I would say that you know, we try to be provocative, we try to encourage people to change, we try to encourage the nonprofit leaders to think about reporting as blessing.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.599
We'd like, you know, I think your donors will really benefit from more of that.
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:08.000
I think that uh, you know, there's one term that we can talk about next time, but I'll I'll tease it out here, Larry.
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:13.519
I would like, I would like more nonprofit leaders to do reverse contingency planning.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:21.119
And I think what that would mean is you'd have a plan for a donor who would walk into your office and say, I've got extra$5 million.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:23.360
What would you how would you put it to use?
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.840
And I don't think many organizations plan for an upside surprise.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:34.000
I think they always do the they always do the contingency planning where they'd say, hey, if we have to cut 10%, what do we do?
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:43.679
But I I will share next time when we get together some stories of donors walking in with a good relationship with the ministry and saying, I've got some extra money, what do you have?
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.199
And there's can be really good outcomes if you have a plan.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:54.960
So I I love that because that speaks to the whole uh conundrum of scarcity versus abundance.
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:55.679
Absolutely.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:08.880
That's what that and I have, you know, I have well, not pitched battles, but certainly, shall we say, vigorous discussions with some with some nonprofit people in the community which I live who will just tell me with a straight face there isn't enough money out there.
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.920
And I say, oh no, no, there's plenty of money, it's the way you're engaging these people.
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:15.280
That's what the problem is.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.880
Uh there's plenty of money.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.719
That would definitely I would echo that.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.800
I can give you many, many stories.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:33.840
There's plenty of money, but there are there's, and I will say in closing, there are many visions without a lot of plans, which we refer to as ministry hallucinations.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:34.880
Oh, I love that.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:35.360
I love it.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.159
Ministry visions without plans.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.480
Are ministry hallucinations, yeah.
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:41.119
Okay.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:42.239
All right, thank you.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:43.920
Thank you, Al, very much.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:45.760
Oh, this has been great.
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:54.239
You know, uh uh we uh everyone, we've been talking to Al Mueller, who's the founder and chief executive officer of generous giving.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:54.880
Is that what it is?
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:56.159
Excellence in giving.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.360
Excellence in giving.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.960
You won't hold that against me, I hope.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.159
Uh I'm getting older, you know, my memory is failing me every day.
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:15.199
But uh, and he is uh, I think presents us with a very open and bright and abundant view of what's available to those who will who will take that responsibility and move forward.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.199
So so thank you, Al, very much.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:20.079
Um and thank you, audience, for listening.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:25.519
And there'll be someone very new, I guess it's next week for somebody else, and uh we'll take it up then.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.079
Thank you.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:30.239
Thank you for listening today.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.079
Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.880
Guest comments and opinions are their own.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:43.679
The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:04.400
Welcome to Eight Principles Voices.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.519
Conversations with those who are making a difference.
00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.919
I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles.
00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:17.920
Now join me as I welcome this week's guest as they invite us to come along on their journey.
00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:18.800
Hello, everybody.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.079
It's Larry Johnson, your host on Eight Principles Voices.
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:31.519
And I'm delighted to have with me a man that I've known for a number of years, the real deal, a guy that does wealth management with a soul, I'll take it that way.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:33.280
And his name is Al Mueller.
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I want to welcome him to the show.
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Welcome, Al.
00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:36.880
Thanks, Larry.
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:38.159
It's great to be with you.
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:43.439
Well, you know, we've known each other for several years, and uh, and I've always admired your work.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:48.960
And there's something you said, maybe I don't even remember you said it to me, but you said it to me several years ago.
00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:52.880
Um, you know, Larry, um I forgot what the number was, but it was something like this.
00:00:52.960 --> 00:01:02.479
You know, we were talking about the inability or uh whatever of nonprofits to really understand donor needs and what what is required there.
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:11.280
And um you said something about, well, you know, I've got X million dollars sitting on my desk for a nonprofit with enough imagination to use it.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:12.079
All right.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:12.959
That it's hard.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:19.120
And I've discovered also in some of my work that it's harder to give it away than it is to make it uh for these people.
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.560
Um, you want to speak to that a little bit and with your own clients?
00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:23.280
Sure.
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:24.719
Well, I think it goes back.
00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:29.519
We have quotes all the way back to Aristotle that would say it's harder to give away money than it is to make it.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:43.280
And certainly uh Andrew Carnegie said the same thing more, and then more recently, people like Michael Bloomberg and and uh Bill Gates, they've all said, and and Warren Buffett have all said it's harder to give away money intelligently than it is to make it.
00:01:43.439 --> 00:02:11.039
Now, you could go to the top of a building and throw dollar bills out or something like that to give it away, but but to give it away intelligently and to do to have things, to have sustainable life change happen, which is a goal of most of our clients, it's very difficult because uh it life is even life change is difficult, and the organizations don't usually start with uh an analysis of what the cause, the root cause of the problems are.
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.919
Therefore, they can't test solutions against that.
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I think in in business, Mr.
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Market will tell you if you've got something right or wrong.
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Uh the nonprofit sector, you can make um emotional appeals and find generous people.
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Certainly in the U.S., uh we're known as a generous country.
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Um, I think we could do a lot more, but we're it's we're more generous than most countries around the world.
00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:43.759
But you can write appeal letters or you can get on TV and show pictures of dogs being harmed or you know, people starving or whatever, and you'll get money.
00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:55.439
Whether you are doing an effective job of solving those problems or not, it's it's the donors sometimes don't get any chance for and there's not a feedback loop for the donors to know if their money is is well spent.
00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:14.879
Um well one thing that um I've often said, and you can you can you can respond to this, that the people, especially as we get up into the upper levels of wealth and and income, certainly, um it's not about it's not about money to them.
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:18.879
It's just really not about the money, it's about the impact they're gonna have.
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But more importantly, it's it's what is it that is what as Jesus would say, what is it that they're their pearl of great price?
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What is it that really makes them feel fulfilled?
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You see, that's what it is.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:46.159
And so I say to people, if you can give your donors at any level experiences, however you like to pronounce however you like to define that word, that they cannot purchase, they can't buy it.
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You see, the money is no object then.
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.719
Um it just cut it flows because it's not about the money.
00:03:53.120 --> 00:04:01.759
And so many nonprofits uh make it about the money, and they make it about the money to the point where the source of that money becomes objectified.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.919
Um you've seen that.
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:05.039
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:05.439
Yeah.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:20.000
What in your view would be one or two things that your your average regular garden variety nonprofit could do on a simple basis that would begin to attack that issue, that problem?
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Well, I think fortunately today we have such great technology.
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I mean, we've gotten videos from the middle of Tanzania from a school that was uh called Under the Same Sun that was helping albino kids in Tanzania.
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Albino kids were literally being hunted for body parts, and there's a woman there who it has a school that both educates these kids and protects them.
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But she created a video just using an iPhone that that brings me to tears whenever I watch it and certainly blessed our the donor who supported the school.
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And um, again, I think technology giving people good reports back for the use of their proceeds is uh you know, I think it's it's very important.
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But it's also you ask many uh nonprofits how much they spend on on reporting, you know, where's the line item in their budget for reporting?
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And reporting keeps you know donors interested, they it's it's good for your donor retention.
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Uh I mean, there's so many good things.
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And sometimes I would tell a nonprofit leader change the word reporting to blessing.
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You know, reporting is reporting really is blessing.
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And so I think every nonprofit, certainly in the faith-based sector, and probably outside of that, would say, Yes, we would like to bless the people who support our work.
00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:43.279
Okay, well, do that by good reporting, very, you know, robust, feature-rich stories and numbers.
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You know, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't have an allergy to numbers.
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You should put numbers in there and you should put stories in there.
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And it's a combination.
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And so it because people, I think the best donors are ones that use their head and their heart.
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I think God gave us both.
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He didn't say pick one.
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And so use your head and your heart.
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You should have an emotional connection to these organizations you support, and you should have an intellectual connection.
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Uh, both both are very important.
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You know, um, you you touched on the need to um uh keep your keep your donors informed, to you're really blessing them when you when you talk about the the good that their investment has done.
00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:29.439
You're blessing them.
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And too often uh when nonprofits do that, they do it with one hand behind their back.
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Let me even what I'm talking about.
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How many times have you received a letter from an organization you've supported and they thank you?
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And in the same letter is another ask.
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It it happens all the time.
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It happens all the time, and it's uh it it it's one you just it negates the the the sincerity of the thank you.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:57.279
It's thank you, let's have another one.
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And you know, the nonprofits that feel that have a transactional relationship with a a donor, it's kind of like they're trying to figure out the donor's ATM code and and get get and get and get money out of them.
00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:17.199
I mean, that's not, you know, their best relationships are transparent and accountable relationships between the recipient and the funder.
00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.519
And so it's not based on how much money can I get out of you.
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And I've even heard horrible stories from donor development uh organizations that have told uh organizations they should do things like have 13 monthly appeals because older people will forget if they gave that month or not.
00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:43.839
And they'll they'll do instead of 12 monthly appeals, they'll do 13, or they'll have two year-end appeals.
00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:53.120
They'll have a fiscal year in and it'll end in June 30, and they'll have a uh calendar year-end, and and they'll they'll make two year-end appeals to to donors.
00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:59.759
And so I think there's things that are sort of that I would consider manipulative at a minimum, and perhaps even dishonest.
00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:05.600
And um, and those those organizations, you know, sadly, they still they don't really go out of business.
00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.519
I mean, that's the nice thing about the the marketplace is if you have a really bad product or service, you'll go out of business.
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.839
Um, in the nonprofit space, you can exist for a really, really long time.
00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:26.560
So well, you know, the overall average first-year renewal for for C3s in this nation is just hovers right at 40%, 39 to 40 percent.
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.279
Now, and so I pose the question a little differently.
00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:36.879
How many businesses do you know that could stay in business, losing 60 percent of their customers every single year?
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:37.919
Be tough.
00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:38.960
Be tough.
00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:49.759
I mean, anybody who analyzes businesses look at customer acquisition costs, and you know, someone who's losing that many existing customers would be through the roof to try and keep replacing those and getting new ones.
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.759
Well, and it is, it's a it's a factor of of order of magnitude, Al.
00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:00.639
That it it's about 10 times the cost uh to acquire a new donor as it is to retain a current donor.
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:06.159
Yeah, and yet the the conventional thinking is we need more donors, more donors, more donors.
00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.720
And that's because these people aren't being brought in as investors.
00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:12.240
I call them investors, Al.
00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:13.919
I don't even call them donors anymore.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:19.200
Um, because they're investing in something that's important to them.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:19.600
Correct.
00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:21.440
The key is what is that?
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:23.519
Yeah, do we really know what it is?
00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.039
And they want they want to see a social and spiritual return on investment.
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:28.720
You know, they want to see things happen.
00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:35.519
So our our our normal metric is what what level of sustainable life change have you accomplished?
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:41.679
And if you haven't accomplished that, then you mean again different organizations have different approaches.
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:49.200
You can, you know, you can keep pulling people out of the river downstream, or you can go upstream and build a fence so they don't fall into the river.
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.879
But you could also do both, you know.
00:09:53.039 --> 00:10:04.240
I mean, you can call you can look at root causes of a problem uh and see what you can do to attack the root causes, so there's less of those, and then downstream the people that have already been affected by the problem.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:11.519
I mean, you know, you can you can put nicer pillows in the homeless shelter, or you can try to help people not be homeless in the in the beginning.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.919
So I think organizations need to look at both.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:25.919
I mean, some are called more specifically to one side of the up or the other, but but we do need to see ask a ministry what is the problem they're trying to solve and what is their their proposed solution.
00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:32.320
What what is the I'm reaching back into my into my uh uh uh early life.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.919
What what's the uh what's the hymn?
00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.200
Rescue the perishing.
00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.600
Well, what's the hymn that's that's a part of?
00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:39.679
I can never remember it.
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:46.639
Not yeah, I'm just not not in my him him uh uh uh random access memory is is taking over for me these days.
00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:51.679
But uh yeah, but rescue the perishing is a phrase from the hymn.
00:10:51.919 --> 00:11:01.440
And so you there's rescue the perishing, but then you know there's the other one that talks, it's the uh it's the other half of it, is that you keep people from getting into that situation in the first place.
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:11.279
Um uh that's uh so tell me a little bit about of course we're not talking names here, but tell me tell me a little bit about the the kinds of clients that you work with.
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.240
Yeah, we're fortunate to serve generous families.
00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:19.120
I would say their their common denominator is they want to make a difference, not just a donation.
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.120
Uh they want to give to things that work.
00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:28.799
So last year it would be about 800 different organizations receiving gifts that total about$100 million from our clients.
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:35.120
We serve about 35 ultra-high capacity families, and uh they're multi-generational.
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:40.720
They're one of the other with only one or two exceptions, they're first generation wealth creators.
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:51.679
Uh, we like working with wealth creators because they bring intellectual capital, spiritual capital, social capital, and they they're they're great problem solvers.
00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:58.879
I think almost by definition, if you've in business made a hundred million dollars, you're really good at solving some problem.
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:04.159
And, you know, that's that can be that can be carried over into your philanthropy.
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:11.440
And so I think the people that want to work with us are interested in solving big problems and uh are willing to put big money.
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:16.799
I think another feature of them is that they want to go narrower and deeper.
00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.559
Um, I think that they've all written a mission statement.
00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:28.480
We call it a joy-filled giving profile, and that allows them to say no to certain things and yes to the things that are most important to them.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:44.559
And I think that a donor does have once they do that, once you write your mission statement, it gives you a lot more freedom to say no, because as a high capacity family who's known to be charitable, you're gonna you're gonna be inundated with requests.
00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:46.720
I mean, that's that that's just a given.
00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.039
And you know, they're not bad things.
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:53.360
People are gonna ask you for money for good things, but they may not fit you.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:59.919
And so, you know, only God has the the bandwidth and the financial resources to deal with all the things out there.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:09.200
So you as a family can pick a subset of those things and then go deeper and with fewer, and um, and you'll get and you'll get better feedback.
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:15.519
I mean, that's we've said it a number of times, but but the idea of getting reports back from a few organizations.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:23.200
I mean, if you gave, you know, think about a way to give away a million dollars back to your early beginning, it was about how hard it is to give away money.
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.159
One person might say, I want to give away a million dollars.
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.600
They might make a hundred ten thousand dollar gifts.
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.559
Well, who in the world could keep track of a hundred organizations?
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.240
I I I certainly couldn't.
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:40.000
Um, and at the same time, you make ten thousand dollar gifts, you probably aren't going to make a significant difference anywhere.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:46.000
No, but you could also do a million-dollar giving by making ten gifts of a hundred thousand dollars.
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:57.120
Yes, you could probably keep track of ten organizations, you could probably you know get robust reports back from those ten, and you would know that you that you made a difference.
00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:06.799
But again, uh you know, some people would prefer to give everybody a door prize in ten thousand dollars and and make and make and make a lot of friends versus saying no to people.
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:09.279
I mean, that can cause relational tension or friction.
00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:16.480
So well, sometimes if they're giving uh door if they're wanting door prizes, what they're gonna do is then they're gonna fill up their mailbox.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.399
Their mailbox would be full.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.720
I've I've I've walked into people's before we started working with one or two families.
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:30.159
I walked into the the desk at his office and I saw this gigantic stack of papers that I think would have probably killed somebody if it fell over.
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:31.279
And I said, What is that?
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.440
He said, That's all the grant requests I've gotten.
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:38.480
And I said, and and that was their uh modus operandi was they didn't respond.
00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:40.960
They didn't say yes or no, they just let them pile up.
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.320
And I think that this guy probably lived in fear of somebody calling him and saying, Hey, what about my grant request?
00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:47.519
What are you gonna do with it?
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:55.600
But you know, he he was in firmly in neutral, you know, he wasn't saying yes and he wasn't saying no, but essentially he was saying no by by not responding.
00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.240
But but these requests just and it weighed on him.
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:04.879
I mean, that that that emotional inbox was it was definitely weighing on him because he knew everybody asked him for money and he hadn't said anything.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.840
Sort of like a passive aggressive approach, yeah.
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:13.759
And I'm sure there were a lot of things that were quite worthy in that stack, but the question is you have to make decisions.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.559
Now, I want to go back to something you said before.
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:25.200
You work intergenerationally, so I presume then you're working with more than one generation to train them in the use of philanthropy and the use of money.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:26.159
That's ideal.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:26.799
Ideal.
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.519
You know, the families have um ask us to involve their adult children.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:36.799
Um, sometimes their children are younger and will go on trips, uh site visits, and things like that.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:51.919
But uh, if we're gonna operate a little bit more like a foundation uh staff or uh or team, uh if they have voting privileges, that probably comes at about 18 years old and up, um, they can bring ideas to the table and the family will work.
00:15:52.080 --> 00:16:00.799
But you know, training the families on good communication skills, good responsibilities uh to work together is really a big part of our.
00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:07.440
And I would say that it's hard to do it on your own because um it's not a level playing field.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:32.720
What we've experienced when we work have a family meeting, we'll prepare a board book so that the kids and the parents and even possibly grandparents will all have the same information so they can have a meaningful discussion about a nonprofit request, the organization itself, because they all have the information that they can pre-read a week before the meeting and look it over and make it, you know, start having meaningful conversations.
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:40.240
Because I think one of the drawbacks to family philanthropy is the kids will say, Hey, mom and dad, you already know about all these all the stuff about these charities.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:40.720
We don't.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:41.679
Why are we even here?
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.279
We're not adding any value.
00:16:43.519 --> 00:17:00.320
And so to take away that frustration, we kind of think of ourselves as a staples easy button that the the kids can put an idea out, we can do the due diligence, they the family can have a meaningful discussion, they can make the gift, we'll chase down the reports, and they can celebrate.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.200
So it's a it's a virtuous circle in that in that sense.
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:20.799
Um so is there an attempt to, I mean, I guess everyone has their own their own goals, but are we talking about um uh wealth that is spent down in one generation, or are we looking at multi-generations where the wealth transfers and the and the administers of that wealth are intelligent and continued the tradition?
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:27.599
Well, I think it's I think scripture is clear about the need for parents to train their children.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:34.400
And and actually the the Hebrew word for train in Deuteronomy is sharpen like an axe.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.440
So you take raw material, but it's a repeated action.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.160
You don't sharpen an axe by just going over it one time.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.880
No, you know, you you need to sharpen it over and over.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:44.240
So that's that's training.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.920
And I think training for your children is action.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.119
You know, the military in the fog of war, you've trained.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.039
You don't have to think about or read a book about shooting a weapon or doing something.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.920
You've trained enough times that it's it's really automatic.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.640
If you aren't trained, you're dead very quickly.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:02.160
Yeah, you're either trained or dead.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:03.680
That's that's a good way to look at it.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.559
But I think in philanthropy, the children need to be trained.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:13.599
And so whether they take over a large responsibility for a large sum of money or not, I I guess that's an open question.
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:23.920
I think more of our clients have decided they should spend down uh in their foundations a big portion of this year, of their generation's wealth creation.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:40.880
And and I would say if they don't spend it down, they probably need to have a sunset because I have yet to come across very many second and third generation kids that are really excited about taking over the huge responsibility of giving away large sums of money.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:51.200
In fact, I I've there's a lot of pushback in generation generation two and three saying, hey, mom and dad, if you leave us$100 million to give away, it's a lot of work, number one.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.559
Number two, it's going to screw up our relationships because everyone's going to come after us for money.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:57.759
We don't want that.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:08.960
So, like I said, uh it's it's a probably a rare scenario where the kids are really excited to take over the responsibility of giving away huge sums of money from mom and dad.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:19.680
Well, I think one of the few exceptions to that would would be a uh a family that's definitely kept their wealth over generations, that would be the Rockefeller family.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.119
Um, and the way they administer it through their insurance model.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.480
Are you familiar with that?
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:25.359
I'm not.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.119
I know they have a pretty significant staff to go along with family members.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:41.440
So I I guess if you are able to staff it up and have the children be more involved at a management level than a than a administrative level, you could probably give them some more joy in that.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:50.960
I don't understand all about it, but it's my understanding that the uh members of the family do not get direct access, but it's fueled by the insurance vehicle.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:59.200
They will buy whole life insurance, it's paid up at the beginning of an individual's life, and that's used as a way to draw against.
00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:05.839
They get an opportunity to do to create wealth, they get an opportunity to draw from that, and of course, if they fail, that's it.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.680
But they begin to and then they they grow in that responsibility over time.
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:20.880
That's as much as I understand, but it's you it's a it's a it's an insurance model that's being used, uh unlike say the Vanderbilts or the other Gilded Age people that pretty much the money's all gone now.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:36.319
Um yeah, the Vanderbilts, I think they said, I think there was a gathering sometime in the 50s or 60s, it was 160 Vanderbilt heirs, and there was out of that, there was one millionaire out of the 160 of the one of the wealthiest families of all time.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.079
So yeah, wealth, yeah.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:49.119
If you don't train your children both in the philanthropy side and other other factors, uh you know, wealth may not be something that's a positive for the future generations.
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.039
Um they don't have a yeah.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.599
What is it, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations, isn't that the aphorism?
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.480
Um and it's pretty have you seen enough in your career to see some of that, haven't you?
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.039
Yeah.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:08.640
Well, I uh again, it's I I think it's wealth doesn't um you know enhance character, it just reveals it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.759
And um, you know, and it will yes.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.160
I I I want to make sure we emphasize that.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:18.960
There's this common misnomer that that that money changes you, it does not.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.839
It simply clarifies who you already are.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.599
Well, and I and accentuates it.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.279
It actually will accentuate it.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.640
I mean, you'll if you are generous with a little, you'll be generous with a lot.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.359
If you were stingy with a little, you'll be stingy with a lot.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:36.880
So it it doesn't, it really doesn't fundamentally change character, it just accentuates it.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.119
It's fuel, or as you said, clarifies it.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:39.279
Yeah.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:40.720
It it it's fuel.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.480
Um, you know, we could be a little more frank, and I could say you just to be a bigger jerk.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.079
If you're a little jerk, you'd be a bigger jerk with more money to do it with.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.880
Exactly.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:49.920
That's all it is.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, because the scripture makes it very clear that money does not have moral quality, it's the use of the money that has the moral quality, and that's it it it and so.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:10.559
That you know our Lord you know will uh bestow that on people, and that's an obligation and an invitation to do great things, yeah, is what it is.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.160
And well, it's a responsibility.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:20.480
We have a responsibility to steward God's resources, he's entrusted to us for some period of time, and um you know, we'll give an account.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:27.440
I mean, we all have to, we should all live in it you know, with an idea that we will give an account for what we did with the resources, both time and treasure.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.640
So well, uh it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve, where they were given to the garden.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:39.119
Let's be productive, you know, you know, prep populate the world, do these things, take care of my my creation here.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.160
That's what our what our mandate really is, of course.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.000
As we as we know, sin entered the picture and things kind of went haywire.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.160
But that wasn't uh that wasn't the original design at all.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:23:10.079
Um if you were giving advice to a nonprofit executive who wanted to know how do I treat no two things, how do I attract people with means, and two, how do I treat them when they come when they express interest?
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:11.759
What would be your advice?
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:28.799
Well, I I don't want to uh step into your too much into your uh world and realm, but um I you know when I get asked for advice, I say I've got my formula for development for ministry leaders or development leaders would be the three Gs.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:34.559
And first of all, number one G is do great communication.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.880
And and um, you know, great communication is really important.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.119
Do great, and you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself, am I doing great communication?
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:45.440
Number two would be, am I doing great ministry?
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:50.240
You have to ask yourself, take a fierce you know, inventory, are we doing great ministry?
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.359
And then finally, the third G is meet great people.
00:23:53.519 --> 00:24:00.079
And great people are they are sometimes people of means, but the great people are the people that have passion about what you're doing.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.839
If you if you if you do great ministry, great communication, and meet great people.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.559
I I I've told people this, and I remember one woman, she called me back and kept her voicemail for a long time.
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:14.799
She said, I did that, and he asked me how much money I needed.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.640
I didn't even have to ask him.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:27.200
And so so I would just say I try to simplify things, and so I would just use the three Gs of great people, great communication, and great ministry.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:33.279
And you know, again, great communication probably could be articulated a little bit more as both internal and external.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.599
You have to internally communicate so your team knows exactly what's going on.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:49.599
But I think there's a lot of times people's external communication is pretty limited, you know, when people really don't understand the scope and and scale and results of your ministry, then you haven't done great communication.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:57.519
Well, um uh laying her on to that, uh, you know, I'm I'm the A Principles guy, and principle two is begin at the beginning.
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:05.200
And that's essentially communicating who you are and what you do in a way that the recipients will understand.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.920
They will understand, not you.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:22.880
Um how many times have we either heard nonprofit people speak about an issue or they've we've read their website, and it's a lot of uh what I'd call professional gobbledygoop, uh, in-house language, uh, too much detail, overwhelming people.
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.000
Uh, and it's not no, what is it they really want to hear?
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.000
What is it, what's important to them?
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:36.720
Uh well, and this would be hard for some ministries to think about, but even you know, does your name communicate well what you do?
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:55.119
We we've we've looked at so many different organizations, and uh, you know, we used to think of what we should have like a little like slot machine where we'd pull it down and and generate names, you know, like world global concern or you know, international uh hope something or other.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:09.039
I mean, it just there were like buzzword added to buzzword added to buzzword, and it's like uh you know, somebody gave me, I don't even want to use their name, but somebody gave me the name of the day, and I said, that tells me nothing about what they do.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:14.480
I I mean, I there's nothing that's that I understand what they do, and from the name.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.079
I mean, uh uh, you know, and I guess in business, maybe you can figure out.
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.119
I mean, who would have thought a name like NVIDIA would mean something?
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:34.240
But but, you know, so maybe it's okay to pick these names out of a hat, but if you can come up with a name that tells people um what you do, um, you know, I remember we I had to name our own company, excellence in giving.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:41.839
I I came up with that as I was listening to Rush Limbaugh talk about excellence in broadcasting, the EIB network, excellence in broadcasting.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.720
That was I said, you know what, I want people to be excellent in giving.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.599
So we're gonna use that name, excellence in giving.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:55.119
It it, you know, I mean, it may be a little bit confusing, but I think it has a standard and a and an explanation of what you would you would get if you work with us.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:03.599
So now, are are you totally on the um the philanthropically advisement side or do you do uh also uh wealth management?
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:15.759
Well, the firm that uh purchased Excellence in Giving back in March is a is an investment firm, one assent out of Birmingham, Alabama, and there are people on that team that are doing the wealth management side.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.200
Excellence in Giving doesn't.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.200
Excellence in Giving is purely on the philanthropic advising side.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.400
So we help families make their charitable grants.
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.720
Uh we're we're not uh I came from the wealth background side.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:47.200
I think Larry, you I mean my I spent 15 years in New York and Chicago with Morgan Stanley and a few years with UBS, the big Swiss bank, but um left left that career to start excellence in giving in 2002 and really have concentrated on the uh distribution side of that rather than actually accumulation side.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:52.640
And you have probably the war wounds to show me about uh working in investment banking, don't you?
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.359
Uh you know, I started in 1984.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.720
Uh Morgan Stanley was a privately held company, it was just a partnership, wasn't even a publicly traded firm.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:05.519
So in the 80s were a pretty wild, there's been a number of movies made about it.
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.720
So yeah, I've we got I got a front row seat on that.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.680
So yeah.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.599
Um so you actually lived in Manhattan for several years.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:15.440
Uh in Connecticut, yeah.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:16.079
Manhattan.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:22.960
Uh 80 Madison Avenue was our first address, and then up in uh in the Darien Darien, Connecticut.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:23.440
So yeah.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.000
Yeah, well, Darien's a delightful town.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.480
You know, I went to uh Yale as in graduate school and we'd go through Darienne.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.640
You have to say it just right out, Darianne.
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.400
Darianne, you know, that that last little emphasis.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:46.000
Um, so tell me a little bit about um now Excellence of Giving is doing great work, and you you've been very pleased about that.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:50.319
And but you don't strike me as the kind of person who's just going to be resting on their laurels.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:51.920
Um, where are you going next?
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.079
What's what's next for Excellence of Giving?
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.359
What would you like to accomplish?
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.000
Well, I you know, we're we're definitely trying to hire some more people to interface with the families.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:08.160
I mean, we need we need more people to quarterback the relationships, which is a hard, hard thing to have be a trusted advisor for those families.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.880
And um, but uh I think there's probably more international giving to be done.
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:20.000
I uh uh last I'd probably say our clients are 80% domestic, and that's in their own communities and around the U.S.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.319
and maybe 20% internationally.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:35.839
Um, I think internationally is harder because it's you're a little more removed from it, but I think there's some really good opportunities around the world, and um we need to explore that a little more and bring that uh bring that back to to the U.S.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.200
uh donor community.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.039
Uh but I I'm also hoping that we can do some large-scale funding.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:46.000
I think that there's uh some of the terms now are called big bet philanthropy.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:54.559
And you know, we've had clients that have ability to give a hundred million dollars to something, but they would it would probably wouldn't be to one organization.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.599
It would be to a collaboration, if you will.
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:09.599
So for instance, if you want to, if you were really passionate about trying to reduce recidivism, you'd you'd work inside the prisons to have a group like prison fellowship, work with the the inmates.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.960
When they had a life change, they were ready to leave the prison.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.519
You'd have them come in, live in a halfway house.
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.599
It would be a very supportive environment.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.920
You'd have a job placement program.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:33.039
And I think if you if you started building those sort of continuums of care in different topics and have the organizations sort of, you know, work in their respective segments, I think you could make a difference.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:49.680
So I'm we're hoping to work with some ultra-high capacity families that say we want to make a difference in a certain topic and then put the right teams of nonprofits together to work together and to see bottom line the results come out the other side.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.599
So I think that would be something I'd be really excited about doing.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:58.079
Um, and I, you know, we're just there's so many things that you could work on, problem solving.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.519
Oh, yes, there are.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.039
Well, let me let me respond to this, uh, not to be the contrarian.
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:09.839
What would you say to um what's happened with uh uh Bill Gates pulling back from that kind of giving?
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:15.359
He was really into these making these big splashes for a while, and I always kind of pulled back for reasons I don't know.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:23.680
So I just Well, I think I think they actually, you know, that I'm not sure I know a lot about the Gates Foundation, but I would say that they had some successes and they had some failures.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.640
I mean, you know, their theory of change about education uh was was failed.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.640
I mean, they they tried a lot of different things.
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:36.160
They said, you know, you know, high schools were too big, so they tried to get to be made smaller schools.
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.240
I mean, there have been there have been failures.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:51.200
I mean, the founder of a group called Netscape, Larry Um Barksdale, uh, Jim Barksdale, put uh a hundred million dollars into literacy efforts in Mississippi, and you know, they failed.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:32:04.400
I mean, but and you have uh Steve Jobs' widow um you know deciding that she's gonna transform education, and one of her key advisors is the former superintendent of the New York public school systems.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:11.920
I mean, Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs would would roll over in his grave if he said the guy who caused the problem is not gonna be the guy who fixes the problem.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:22.799
I mean, to me, a lot of these problems don't get solved because they're they they work within the existing system, which is broken, and I've never seen a pipe get fixed by pushing more water through it, you know.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:23.680
I love it.
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:24.240
I love that.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:41.440
So so that's what does so I but I do think that you know if you went to a different uh person like a Tom Siebel from Siebel Systems, he's the founder of the Montana Meth Project, and he looked at the meth you know addiction in Montana and a few other states and said, you know, what are we gonna do?
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:47.440
And they realized that kids were dying by it's almost like fentanyl today, but kids were dying by trying it once.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:53.759
And so the Montana Meth Project said, We're gonna scare these kids with the reality that you could try it once and die.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:58.400
And so they had these, you know, and how bad your life was on meth.
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:00.559
And they they they were successful.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.519
I mean the meth use in a lot of those states went way down.
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:12.319
I think it was adopted by six or other six other states, but he put a little bit of money on the research side and then found an effective solution.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:13.839
So I think it can be done.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:23.279
But back to back to your comment about I mean, Gates had great success with uh things like you know, malaria, um getting vaccines where there weren't any vaccines.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:31.599
I mean, there's some pretty simple um, you know, I mean, there's some things, but but education, they they rate themselves as a C.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:46.240
And um, I remember uh at a we were at a philanthropy roundtable conference, I don't know, eight or ten years ago, the fellow from the uh Walton Family Foundation said, we put a billion dollars in education and we can't figure out a single place where it made any difference.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.839
And you know, Annandale, uh the the readers digest.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:01.440
I mean, there's there's different places people have put money, but I would say the problem is they put they think, unfortunately, like the government, that if you just put more money behind something, yes, things things are gonna get better.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.440
And that's that's definitely not true.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.279
There's not a shortage of money.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:16.639
I mean, Washington, DC has the highest cost per kid in public education, and probably the lowest, you know, the results from the grades, the the the testing and things like that.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:19.119
So that well, that's you played into my hand.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:25.199
That was the answer I was looking for, is that you can't solve a problem by simply throwing money at it.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:26.480
Um absolutely right.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:32.400
Uh there's got to be some more nuanced thinking about how that money is applied and how it's progressed.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.039
I I love that.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:34.800
Yeah, you you played into my hand, Al.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.519
I love it.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.199
And it doesn't happen too often.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.280
But no, it's you're right on, Larry.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.440
I mean, that's that it it money does not solve.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:48.239
I mean, you have to be smart, and but but smart money can, if you in smart thinking, can solve problems.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:51.280
I mean, there yes there are examples.
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.360
I mean, there's one in Chicago.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:01.440
Uh, these guys said, why are single moms living in these like you know, daily or weekly hotels with their kids or living in their cars?
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:09.360
And they said they studied it and they found out that the problem was that women could never get ahead enough to get first and last month's rent in a security deposit.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.199
That was that was prohibitive for them to find to get into an apartment.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.519
They could pay their rent, they were probably paying more in some of these flea bag hotels than they really were.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.199
They would in a hotel in a thing, but they never could get so this group came along.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:29.440
Their model was we will be first and last month's rent in a security deposit on your behalf for these, you know, a few apartments.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:34.639
They put three or four women in these apartments, they put a social worker to talk to them and their kids.
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.880
They had the women work together to do babysitting, grocery shopping, some different things.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:41.519
A very low-cost model to solve this problem.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:50.320
But but they, you know, they looked at it, they found out what the the problem of the root cause was a problem, and they went after it in a very intelligent way.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.639
And they didn't they didn't spend tens of millions of dollars building an apartment complex or something.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:55.920
They solved this problem.
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.920
That's the government's response.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:00.719
Let's just spend uh throw money at a new company.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:01.280
Absolutely.
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:12.400
Absolutely throw it at the uh well and then the other you know reminds me you're talking about uh understanding the problem, and these people, these women had this threshold they could never get to.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.119
Correct.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:31.519
And so what came to my mind was the whole payday loans business, you know, these these userous lenders, um, who in in my own city where I live, I attended uh one of the chambers uh finance uh I was invited to be a part of this finance board.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.079
And this man actually defended these creeps.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.920
Oh, well, you know, it's free market and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they deserve what they get.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:39.760
I just wanted to go, I want to look at this guy.
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:41.840
Do you have any idea what you're saying?
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:47.440
You know, not only is it is it revolting to listen to, but it's not even good business, Al.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.000
You don't grow the community or the or the or the economy that way.
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.079
You it's per it's parasitic.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:54.800
That's what it is.
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:55.760
It's wrong.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:08.159
And you know, I mean, there's again, thinking about smart solutions, there's a uh ministry we've supported up in uh Denver uh that probably will try to expand out in other cities, but called Hope House, and they help teen moms.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:17.280
And one of the things that broke my heart was hearing that a teen mom, only 2% of them get a college degree, even an associate's degree, a nursing degree.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.800
Well, it's hard to support yourself without a college degree of some type.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:26.800
And so they have these classes um or at least some sort of uh focus training of some sort.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.199
Correct, some sort of training, vocational training or whatever.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:41.199
But they actually at their location, one of the things that they do with their classes, they have child care for the little kids and they have a gigantic, I think it's eight washers and dryers.
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:48.079
So literally the women can go to class and do their laundry and have their children cared for all at the same time in this complex.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:52.239
Now, who would have thought that washers and dryers would be part of but part of the solution?
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.440
But it obviously is.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:38:01.920
You know, if you can go to class for two hours and do your wash your laundry at the same time for the single mom, that's a very efficient strategy.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.440
You know, it isn't, you know, you and I probably wouldn't think about something like that.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.519
But they said, hey, what do the single moms need?
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:08.480
This is what they need.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:14.960
So they have a place where they can get a meal, they can get their education, they can get their kids watched and their laundry done.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.079
I mean, it's it's spectacle, it's spectacular.
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:18.880
I love it.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:19.519
I love it.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:20.639
Yeah, I love it.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.920
You know, Al, you know, I'm gonna have you on again soon.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.079
We've just gotten started here, okay?
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:32.719
So I I need to sort of draw it to a close, but uh I do want to do this again very soon.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.079
Um uh, but I want to thank you for spending time with us today.
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:41.760
I know that my viewers and listeners will enjoy this.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:46.320
Um, and so um uh any parting comment you'd like to make, Al?
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:57.440
Well, I would say that you know, we try to be provocative, we try to encourage people to change, we try to encourage the nonprofit leaders to think about reporting as blessing.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.599
We'd like, you know, I think your donors will really benefit from more of that.
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:08.000
I think that uh, you know, there's one term that we can talk about next time, but I'll I'll tease it out here, Larry.
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:13.519
I would like, I would like more nonprofit leaders to do reverse contingency planning.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:21.119
And I think what that would mean is you'd have a plan for a donor who would walk into your office and say, I've got extra$5 million.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:23.360
What would you how would you put it to use?
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.840
And I don't think many organizations plan for an upside surprise.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:34.000
I think they always do the they always do the contingency planning where they'd say, hey, if we have to cut 10%, what do we do?
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:43.679
But I I will share next time when we get together some stories of donors walking in with a good relationship with the ministry and saying, I've got some extra money, what do you have?
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.199
And there's can be really good outcomes if you have a plan.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:54.960
So I I love that because that speaks to the whole uh conundrum of scarcity versus abundance.
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:55.679
Absolutely.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:08.880
That's what that and I have, you know, I have well, not pitched battles, but certainly, shall we say, vigorous discussions with some with some nonprofit people in the community which I live who will just tell me with a straight face there isn't enough money out there.
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.920
And I say, oh no, no, there's plenty of money, it's the way you're engaging these people.
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:15.280
That's what the problem is.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.880
Uh there's plenty of money.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.719
That would definitely I would echo that.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.800
I can give you many, many stories.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:33.840
There's plenty of money, but there are there's, and I will say in closing, there are many visions without a lot of plans, which we refer to as ministry hallucinations.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:34.880
Oh, I love that.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:35.360
I love it.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.159
Ministry visions without plans.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.480
Are ministry hallucinations, yeah.
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:41.119
Okay.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:42.239
All right, thank you.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:43.920
Thank you, Al, very much.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:45.760
Oh, this has been great.
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:54.239
You know, uh uh we uh everyone, we've been talking to Al Mueller, who's the founder and chief executive officer of generous giving.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:54.880
Is that what it is?
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:56.159
Excellence in giving.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.360
Excellence in giving.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.960
You won't hold that against me, I hope.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.159
Uh I'm getting older, you know, my memory is failing me every day.
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:15.199
But uh, and he is uh, I think presents us with a very open and bright and abundant view of what's available to those who will who will take that responsibility and move forward.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.199
So so thank you, Al, very much.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:20.079
Um and thank you, audience, for listening.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:25.519
And there'll be someone very new, I guess it's next week for somebody else, and uh we'll take it up then.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.079
Thank you.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:30.239
Thank you for listening today.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.079
Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.880
Guest comments and opinions are their own.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:43.679
The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.
