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S1: The following show is pre-recorded, so we won't be able to take your great calls.
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S2: Well, this is Ed Stetzer live and it is a rainy day in Southern California. This is, you know, check on your Southern California friends. We don't, you know, we don't have this. We're not used to this, but here we are nevertheless. And so, and my guests are also in Southern California, but I recognize Ron over 200 outlets from coast to coast on terrestrial radio. Many of you listen, of course, via the podcast. You can go to Ed Stetzer live.com. And from there, a couple of clicks you voila downloaded and subscribed to the podcast as well. But every Saturday at this time, or whenever you're listening to this podcast, we have these conversations. Sometimes they're about engaging the cultural moments. Sometimes they're about kind of who we are in Christ. And matter of fact, that's going to be a big part of our conversation today. We're going to look at what it means to be a follower of Jesus and what it means to embrace our identity in Christ. So we're looking forward to our conversation. The topic of our book today. Our book discussion today is going to be Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And my guests are actually JP Foster and Matt Williams. Let me just tell you who they are, one at a time. Doctor JP foster serves as senior pastor of Faithful Central Bible Church, one of the largest African American churches in Los Angeles. He's also ministry affiliate faculty at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, and has led educational and humanitarian initiatives in Africa and in the UK. He's co-authored with Matt Williams, the new book Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Identity in Christ. And also, we don't normally have guests, but, you know, it's a dual authored book, so why not? Uh, doctor Matt Williams teaches New Testament. So you got doctor JP foster doctor Matt Williams he teaches new testament at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University since 2002. Before that he was a missionary in Spain. He's the editor and contributor for The Parables of Jesus, the miracles of Jesus, the prayers of Jesus, and what the New Testament authors really cared about. So let me just say, welcome to both of you, and we're glad that you're here. And, you know, you've kind of written a book that is intended to sort of help people, I guess, kind of dwell in or walk in or live in the freedom they have in Christ based on their identity in Christ. So let's let me start with you, JP, and say, ask you first, like, where did you come up with the idea that this was an important issue that Christians needed to think more about?
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S3: Yeah. Thanks again for having us on. When it comes to the idea of the book, we notice that there's a widening gap of biblical illiteracy, um, amongst Christians. And Matt and I had noticed it in, in classrooms, we noticed it in churches, and we tried to figure out the best way to address the issue. And we would ask our survey students about who they are in Christ. They really couldn't articulate or express from Scripture who they actually were. And as a pastor, counseling parishioners and members, I realized many of the issues that I was counseling came down to identity issues that if they knew who they were in Christ, if they knew the nature, the character, the essence of God, that some of the issues they had, they would overcome them. And so the book has done a great job in teaching people how it is to walk out their identity. Many of us carry baggage before we came to Christ, and that process of spiritual formation and transformation is really why Matt and I sat down and said, how can we do this in a way? And we we had over 60 terms. We tried our best to get it down to, to. 21 for multiple reasons. One, if you have a personal devotional. 21 terms work. Many churches, such as mine. We start a. 21 day fast at the top of the year. So pastors and churches can actually walk through this as they fast for 21 days at the top of the year, a sermon series. The book has 21 attributes, but they're divided into seven different sections Created in Christ, restored in Christ, and confident in Christ. So pastors can actually do a sermon series, which I'm doing one right now. And also life groups. Many of us do discipleship initiatives in our churches. So we do life groups. There's reflection questions at the end that help you anchor your identity and wrestle with, um, overcoming some of the negative self-talk and strongholds that have grown in our minds over time. So that's the really what drove us to, to write this book.
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S2: Well, I think it's fascinating. And I like the theme that's there. And, and I do think, I mean, there's something to be said. I mean, just in just let's take it outside of the Christian world for just a second, which is a strange phrase to say on Moody radio, but stay with me. Um, you know, having a proper understanding of identity is like basic counseling 101. Like they kind of say, yeah, you know who you sort of have your who you, who you perceive you're close to that values you all this is part of it. But then, you know, you know, Matt, we have the, the God of all the universe, God the father sends God the Son, who dies on the cross for our sin and. And we have an identity in Christ that then shapes us even more. Let me let me ask it on a negative way. Why do you think so often we sort of wander away from our true identity in Christ. Matt.
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S4: Yeah, that's a great question. It's funny because both JP and I, our wives are both licensed marriage and family therapists. So when you say that this is just basic, you know, counseling and basic, um, what everybody in the world should know, we, we see that both in the Christian mindset, but also our wives talk about how people struggle. So yeah, if you, if you don't get this, um, you're going to struggle in every way. I mean, we, we did a podcast recently, um, that was basically about relationships and marriages. And if you struggle with self-image, just personally, you're going to have a hard time really loving your friends or your spouse. And I often tell my students about, oh, maybe ten, 12 years ago, we had a student at Biola who was literally a princess. Her dad was the king of Eswatini in Africa. And I tell them, you know, what kind of confidence do you think she walks around campus with, knowing that her dad's the king? And here we are. Our our father is the King of kings. I mean, the confidence that we should have and the struggles that we have with self-image, they should be eliminated when we understand who we really are.
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S2: Yeah. No question, no question. And I think I think helping people to lean into that is a big part of it. And that's what we're going to open up our conversation for as well. Our phone number. And if you'd like to kind of talk about a little bit, maybe how you have sort of sought to find your identity in Christ, or maybe some words that somebody has encouraged you in that or maybe got a question for JP and Matt. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Again, our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Also, we're going to give away a copy. We have several copies of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. Uh, we're going to it's not to like, hey, I'm caller number seven. Um, can I have a book? It's, you know, insightful questions or comments. We'd love to receive them. Again, the number is (877) 548-3675. Okay. So so in the book, you kind of, you kind of want to invite believers into this journey of seeing themselves the way God sees them. And then these. 21 I mean, in Christ, they're kind of biblical attributes that and that we're trying to then call people to embrace them. Um, so, so let's talk a little bit about each kind of the identity does get a chapter or a section, but you, you base them on a biblical term on each of those times, you unpack a biblical term. So Jimmy kind of talk to us, the framing, like, what are some biblical terms? I mean, I see some of them here, like accepted or adopted. Pick one and then tell us how that, that, that theme or that term shapes our understanding of identity.
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S3: One would be holy. Yeah. We learned that through Scripture that we're holy in Hebrews 1010, that we are holy by the sacrifice of Christ. I know sometimes we don't look at it that way. Um, we see that the sacrifice of Jesus, that we're, we're saved, we're redeemed, we're forgiven for our sins, and we're able to be in right standing before God. But when you think of holy, sometimes I think we don't realize that we are actually holy and holy means to be set apart from and set apart for God's purposes. I think for me personally, when I gave my life to Christ because I didn't grow up in church, when when people would say, you have to be holy or holy. It was almost unattainable to me because I never really fully understood what it meant. And in the church setting, holiness was about performance and behavior, and holiness was don't do this, don't wear that. And it really wasn't a heart thing for me. So when I started reading the scripture, I realized, if you trace of God says, I am holy, so you should be holy, but it means to be set apart from or to be devoted for. So even with the term holy, realizing that it is, it is a life that is devoted to God and set apart from the world, and it should be giving God glory in all of our purposes. So it moves me from a behavior based ideology or idea of holiness to understanding that it is in in Christ and the sacrifice of Christ. I have been made holy, set apart from the world, and set apart for God's purposes. And then that that aspect of me, knowing that if I'm going to be holy, I have to be. Understand, I'm set apart and I'm set. And I'm now positioned to give God glory. So my life now is devoted to God. And for me, that makes sense. But when holiness to me was given in a church context of don't wear this, you shouldn't wear that, and it becomes performance based, then if you mess up or you slip or something goes wrong, you end up depressed. So for me, I kept saying, well, no one around me is struggling. Everybody has this mask of holiness on, and I'm the one that's still struggling because when I gave my life to Christ, I had built habits over time that weren't that didn't line up with the God, the Word of God, or were antithetical to the things of God. So now I'm in a church setting where everyone seems like they're perfect. It's like Pleasantville. Everyone's perfect. No one has any issues. But here I am overcoming my my struggles because I've given my life to Christ. So I realized over time that that sanctification is not a light switch. It's, it's progressive. So I'm positioned in Christ, but I'm also being perfected. I'm, I am this perfective sanctification that comes when Jesus returns. But I'm now in this space of progressive sanctification, and in this space of progressive sanctification, I am I'm, I'm be being transformed. It's, it's in a continual tense. So every day my life should be being conformed into the image of Christ. And so that to me, when I understood the difference between a behavior based. Don't do this, don't do that to surrendering and sacrificing my life, my will to God. I realize we're holy first, we're holy because of Jesus, the sacrifice of Christ. But then now my mind says my life is devoted to God. So every day Paul says in Scripture, I die daily. Jesus says, if you want to be my disciple and I do want to be my disciple, he says, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me daily. And so I realized that sanctification or holiness being set apart is a daily process of me continuing to be formed and transformed into the image of Jesus Christ. And so that's just one term that that transformed my life completely when I first gave my life to Christ. But I had to read scripture and understand what God's Word said about things that are set apart or devoted to him. And now I'm live with you on the radio, and my life is holy, set apart for God's purposes and devoted to him and all that I do.
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S2: So good, so good. We're going to continue our conversation in just a moment with JP foster. Matt Williams, our phone number for your calls (877) 548-3675. Talk about finding freedom in Jesus. Maybe that's something you're looking for. Maybe that's something you've walked through. Maybe you're living into your identity in Christ. Call us. Tell us about it. (877) 548-3675. This is Ed Stetzer live. I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology. And every Saturday, your radio host, give us a call (877) 548-3675. Okay. We are back at Stetzer live. We're having a conversation about finding freedom in Jesus. That's the name of the book subtitled the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. My guest, JP Foster and Matt Williams. We actually served together at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. JP actually also is the pastor of, well, primarily as the pastor of a local church in Los Angeles. But we are so glad that he teaches with us as well. Both of you, you know, been teaching for a while in different roles. You said at the beginning that you're kind of awareness of biblical literacy. You know, and we see this, you know, we're Biola University is one of the largest Christian universities in the world. Students come in, there's a faith requirement there. They often come in, however, maybe not living into their full identity in Christ. Let me go back to you, JP. When you're teaching those undergrads, you know, how do you help them think through some of these things? Maybe they grew up in a Christian home, but man, really just living in the riches of who you are in Christ. How do you how do you draw them to that?
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S3: There's multiple ways. One is in biblical interpretation, helping them understand the narrative and the story of Scripture. So understanding who God is, understanding redemption in Christ. Um, the theological foundations of our faith. And the second would be spiritual formation. How do I form my, my life to have a life that's dedicated to Christ? And so students, many students, you'll see that, you know, they're young, they're undergrad students, and they're one of the most impactful things they're wrestling with is shame. And so, so they're coming in, they're excited about this environment of getting a Christian education, but they're also dealing with, um, forgiveness and shame and guilt from past sin or things that they're wrestling with in that, in that moment. And so I think the concepts of understanding that you are shame free and that when you're forgiven, God removes the shame and the guilt that comes with your sin. I think that's one of the hardest concepts, but also liberating and freeing concepts that students have have accepted, and also helping them understand the importance of the sacrifice of Christ so that they don't accept it as cheap grace. So there is an aspect of our sanctification process that we have to understand. If I'm holy, I'm also not perfect, but because I'm not perfect, I have to also remember what repentance actually is. Repentance is a 180 turn. It's to change your mind and turn your direction. I think just helping and walking through students and encouraging them that this is a process of sanctification, a process of Romans. Romans 121 through ten, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So there's an aspect of our mind that needs to be renewed in order for us to walk this out. Matt mentioned about our wives being therapists. Well, most people will tell you, if I can change my mind, I can change my behavior. Scripture says we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. So if I don't want to be conformed to the habits of this world or the culture of this world, then I have to be renewed. My mind has to be renewed. I think that's how rich this this process of formation is, even with the 21 terms. But even with biblical education and discipleship, that the more I understand whose I am, I understand who I am. So we ground them in understanding the essence, the nature and character of God. And then once they know who they are, we're better able to live out who we are as his children. And that that is what, what I've learned, uh, navigating, walking through and counseling with students and community. And to be honest with you, students need community. And I think sometimes they need mentorship, but they need community. And when we're working and wrestling with these things together in the community of Biola, a Christian university or your church, um, it makes a massive difference for sure.
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S2: You know, it's interesting. Moody radio, of course, is a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. So we're like, we're thinking about students, you know, and one of the fun facts is if you look at, you know, Moody Bible Institute founding and the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, which is now called Biola University, they're founded by many of the same people and still dealing with the same issue. We want students to thrive and see really the gospel take root in their lives. Anyway, let's take a call from Andy Andy in Orange County. Andy, what's the deal with this rain we're experiencing right now? I don't even know what to do. I'm new to Orange County, like, and they shut everything down like they sent a text out to the. I think it was one of. My friend said they sent a text out the Orange County School District or something. I don't know who it was, but they said, hey, it's going to be big rain tomorrow. But we're still having school. Like, like we have to tell people we're still. Anyway. Andy understands. Andy, go ahead with your question or comment.
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S5: Hey, thank you very much, gentlemen. God bless you first and foremost. And yeah, you know, this is one of six days of rain of the year. So I'll take the rain with the sunshine as we all need to. But I guess my question here, guys and gentlemen, and I just caught the tail end as I was popping into the car here. Uh, as we all have experienced crisis in our lives in one form or another. Uh, the your guest, uh, my question was when you committed your life to being more like Christ, was there a turning point that you could look back on and say, yep, at this, this moment, this day, maybe even this hour that I gave it all to God and never looked back. Was there any point in that? I have my own personal, but I was just curious for the.
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S2: Yeah, like, like, let me let me follow up. So you mean like something more like, like where they had this kind of turning point moment where the saving life of Christ became real to them and they sort of like this was the or you mean like every day or a big crisis? Give us a little more.
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S5: Yeah. No, like a like a actual like epiphany moment, I guess you could say, you know, like, hey, uh, at this time, it was during this crisis, this downfall, this loss of loved one. My family got divorced. Whatever. I lost my job, I. I was in the line at the food. Um.
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S2: Okay. All right, well, let's let's let's get Matt to. Yeah, yeah, let's get Matt to weigh in. But you hold on because I want to give you a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. It kind of sounds a little bit Matt, like Andy's talking about like some you're a Christian. You had this sort of turning point I mentioned. I said the saving life of Christ because I was thinking of something, what we might call Keswick in spirituality. But is this, which probably is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down, but is there often a place where you kind of lean into maybe one time or you're like, man, I really get my identity. I want to walk in that. Or is it a sequential thing or both? Unpack that for us. Matt.
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S4: Yeah. Andy. That's a great question because I think we all hope, as JP said earlier, that it's a light switch, right? That all of a sudden everything is perfect. But yeah, life isn't that way, is it? It's it's ups and downs. It's forward and back. Chuck Swindoll wrote an old book, three steps forward, two steps back. And so I can look back on my life. You know, I'm in my early 60s now, and I can think of moments where, you know, okay, this was an important moment. I remember sitting in my room, uh, thinking about the, uh, Isaiah sitting in the presence of God saying, oh my goodness, I am. I'm a sinful man. And that day, I committed to missions that I was going to go overseas and serve the Lord there. Uh, there was a time when I was meeting with students and I'm like, oh my goodness, am I going to really go after this and sacrifice my life for students? Um, so yeah, I think there's moments where we do this. There's moments where we, uh, you know, feel if we can use that word where we feel like we're holy, we feel like we're loved. But there's other moments when we wake up and we just don't feel that. And so we just keep trying to walk it out, knowing that these things are, are actually true. And the feelings oftentimes follow our mind and our beliefs.
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S2: Okay. And why don't you, JP why don't you add in that as well? Because I'm kind of, I'm kind of interested. I think Andy's really also talking about maybe a crisis becomes a turning point of leaning into your identity in Christ. And I would say for me, I did have a time. I did have a time like that. Um, so what do you think, JP?
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S3: Well, mine. Mine did. I had the same experience that Andy was describing. Mine actually happened on the campus of Biola. Um, I got injured playing basketball. I was, I was navigating, uh, being angry with God and wrestling with how could I be going through this physical issue? And I've given my life to Christ and I've surrendered everything. And now I'm, I want to be a neurosurgeon and, and play basketball. And now all of a sudden I can't do either because I'm just taking over a year to heal. And then I ended up praying. Coming to Biola's campus after praying with a few friends, came to Biola's campus just to do a tour, and I was in a season of my life where I was just hopeless and I was wrestling with God. What do you want? What do you want me to do with my life? Where does my. What are you going? What is what are we going to do? And I went on Biola's campus hopeless. And the tour guide took me to a dorm. And the name of this dorm is Hope. So here I am, hopeless. I go to this dorm in the name of this dorm is called Hope. I'm standing in the lobby of the dorm. The tour guide is telling me that this is the side for the for the men's dorm dormitory. This side is for the women's dormitory. And I'm watching the students come back and forth, back and forth, because I'm facing the door, the entrance and exit of the. Of the dorm called Hope. And I'm watching students come in. Two, two women, two ladies walk by and one gives me this, this stare, this just look. And I said, oh no, I don't know if I can go go to school here. That was a strange look. And she leaves. She comes back and she has tears in her eyes and she just says, I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm like, what is going on? And I'm like, I bet you I'm sorry because the way you looked at me, I didn't say it out loud, but in my mind, that's what I was thinking. And then she just says, you don't know me. I'm so sorry. But the Lord told me to tell you that this is going to be. He wants you to be here. This is going to be the foundation of your ministry to touch lives around the world. I said, what? And I just froze, and the tour guide looked at me and said, well, do you want to continue the tour or you want to fill out the application? And I said, can we do both? But that to me, I knew the Lord was leading my life into pastoral ministry. I didn't grow up in church, so I didn't know what that looked like. I knew Biola was an incredible place for me to grow and to to move forward, to do whatever the Lord was going to do in my life. But at that time, I knew basketball. I knew what I needed to do in order to be a neurosurgeon because it was all laid out. You go to medical school, you have to take these prerequisites. You have to do this school. And everything was laid out. But now going into ministry, it's like, Abraham, go to the land. I'm going to show you. I had no idea. But that moment of my hope in my hopelessness, but my openness to God and a dorm named Hope, he spoke. And from that moment, that was a turning point for me. I said, Lord, if this is what you want me to do, and I remember this, this in my my mind editor, you may not be I may not be a neurosurgeon. I may not be doing surgery to help people. Um, in, in, in hospital. But he, I felt the Lord telling me, but you'll get to help heal the most important part of the human existence. And that's the soul. And I just said, sign me up, Lord. I'll go. And that was a turning point for me. It pushed me into my purpose. It made me take my walk seriously because I'm now if I'm going to be pastoring, this isn't a joke. And so this really literally shaped and transformed. This was a major turning point in my life. And since then I've done everything I can to honor God. I'm not perfect, but to honor God and surrender my life to him and his will.
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S2: Fascinating. Fascinating. Good. Good. Let's go. I think we got enough time for, uh, for the bottom of the hour. Let's go to Joe in Naperville, Illinois. Joe, you're live on the air with your question or comment. Go right ahead.
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S6: Hi. Hey. Hey, thanks so much for having us. You know, this, uh, this message here today and, and, and JP and Matt. Hey, thanks for being here. This is amazing. Um, this topic here, you know, in Christ, you know, I, I really do love you and treasure it. Um, so thank you for speaking up on it. Um, you know, my question here is besides, uh, you know, getting God's word and studying his word, um, how do we grow in the participating grace of God? And by learning and accepting who we truly are in Christ, are new creatures in Christ and are broken and an imperfect vessel.
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S2: Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. Uh, if you if you hold on line two, I'm going to give you a copy of, uh, of the book. Uh, Matt, can you can you address that in about one minute before the bottom of the hour?
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S4: Yeah, yeah, that actually was a major focus for us because, you know, many people know who they are, but putting it into practice is difficult. So at the end of each chapter, we have reflective exercises. And one of them that we found really helpful is breathing exercises. And we don't empty our minds like in.
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S2: Mat, I apologize, I'm going to jump. I'm going to jump in mat, I'm going to have you come back and continue that on the other side. Stay with us. We continue our conversation and hear from Matt Williams. Okay, we're back at center live. I kind of ran out of time. The bottom of the hour is a hard break, so it didn't really give Matt enough time to answer that question. So. So Matt, let's go back to you and then JP after Matt share a little bit, you just jump right in. So Matt, over to you.
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S4: Yeah. Thanks, Ed. Yeah. So as I was saying, you know, a lot of times we intellectually know who we are in Christ, but it's putting that into practice. So at the end of each chapter, we have these reflective exercises, and one that my students have found particularly helpful are breathing exercises. And I mean, a lot of counselors talk about breathing, you know, 1 to 4 Navy Seals do the box breathing. Um, it's not, you know, new age spiritual spirituality where you empty your brain, but we fill it with truth. So for example, shame free, we breathe in, shame removed and we breathe out honor given. And that's based off of Zephaniah three. And then we ask them to go find a worship song and listen to that worship song. You know, I think most of us wake up in the morning with a song in our mind. And if we listen to the same song over and over again, we get that theme throughout the day and throughout the weeks. And then we have the definition for each term that they reflect on. And then just some basic exercises and reflective exercises where they really think through who they are and how to put it into practice day to day. So yeah, it's, it's the Pauline terms, the indicative leading to the imperative. It's the truth that we now live out in our life. It's faith leading to faithfulness. JP what do you got?
00:27:49
S3: No, that's that's incredible. Also, um, there's a, there's a phrase that was used by a caller of as broke a broken vessel God using a broken vessel. And when I heard that I, it immediately reminded me of, of our first chapter transformed in that first chapter, it explains how God transforms the lives of his people. And in that specific chapter, I just want to name some people that God transformed their lives. Who we would look at were broken vessels. Moses murdered someone. One. Paul was Saul before he became Paul. David was not a perfect vessel. He was a man after God's own heart. But he wasn't a perfect vessel. If you look at Mary Magdalene, you look at, um, many of the of people that God used in Scripture, you'll notice that they weren't perfect, but their lives were transformed because God, they were ordinary people that went on to do extraordinary things because they believed and trusted in an extraordinary God. Their lives were transformed. And so I'm not perfect. And I think if perfection is the criteria, in order for you to serve God, then we all have to sit down. We've been perfected by the works of Jesus Christ, and we have to walk out that relationship and, and, and our relationship with God. And then that leads to purpose. So because I have a relationship with God, how then does God want to use me? And throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, you'll see different characters throughout the story. Who. God got Ahold of them and transformed their lives, even those who were broken. He was able to use their life to get glory out of. So I would just encourage the callers to, to, to just think of if I've surrendered my life to God, he can deal with my brokenness. He dealt with Moses, the brokenness of Moses. He dealt with the brokenness of, of Abraham. He did before he was Abraham. He dealt with the brokenness of David. He dealt with the brokenness of Paul. He deals with our brokenness. He's dealt with and dealing with my brokenness. And as long as we're willing vessels to be used by him, and we take seriously his word and the calling, he'll he'll use us. And the ultimate goal is that he can get glory out of our lives.
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S2: JP you say you can't destroy someone who knows who they are. And I was really struck by the idea that, you know, living into who we are in Christ. I mean, again, who we are. It is we were made this in Christ. We're declared this by Christ, by God in Christ. So. So tell me about the strength that comes from from knowing that.
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S3: JP I'll give you I'll give you a personal testimony. I've, I've lost my younger brother and my older brother to accidental deaths in the within the last ten years. And if I did not know who I was in Christ, if I didn't realize that I was loved by God, if I didn't understand the the essence and nature of God, I could have spiraled badly. But because I knew who I was. And you know, our chapter in victorious lets us know that that we're not in battles alone and that we're not fighting for victory. We're fighting from the victory that we have in Christ. It makes a massive difference. I did, I do, I did grieve, I did go through, you know, stages of grief that that normal people go through in our humanity. But I think what kept me moving forward and what kept me purposeful and, uh, and, and still with strength was I knew who God was, and I knew that I was his child and me understanding his loving nature, me understanding that his, his thoughts are not my thoughts. His ways are not my ways. And leaning not on my own understanding and then knowing biblical truths of. To be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord, and to go to a place where there's no more pain, no more suffering. Those are the things. But if I didn't know those things, you know, I could have spiraled. Because when you lose people close to you, especially your siblings who you've grown up with your whole life, um, that you've fought with and fought for, and you just have incredible memories. And it's not as if I'm, I don't still have, I don't have pain from the loss, but because I know who I am in Christ. And because I know who God is, I almost feel like you're unstoppable. Because if God is on my side, you know, Scripture says, If God is for me, who can stand against me? So just me knowing who I am in Christ and me knowing who God is, it is. It has instilled a confidence in me that even though I go through battles, I go through tests, I go through trials. I always expect to come up, be an overcomer on the other side of it. And I'm willing to put lean more into God no matter what I'm facing. So I think those those, those that's where that, that, that thought and mentality comes from. Again, I'll say this one more time when you know who you are, you know who you are. And that's been transformative in my life.
00:32:59
S2: Amen. Our phone number for your calls (877) 548-3675. We're talking with JP Foster and Matt Williams. Their new book is Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. Let me hear from you. We got a couple calls lined up. I'm going to get to them in just a second, but love to hear from you about kind of what you're. When you try to think about understanding your identity in Christ, what gives you encouragement, exhortation, maybe even where you struggle and need advice. (877) 548-3675. Again, that's (877) 548-3675. Let's go to Michael in Dayton, Ohio. You're live on the air, Michael. Go right ahead.
00:33:37
S7: Yeah, I was just curious. I'm reading back through Genesis and thinking about our current climate. Uh, as in the days of Noah's coming about. And I was just wondering, is it more difficult to walk, walk out the, uh, life in Christ in areas where the political climate seems to be more anti-God, like in L.A. and Chicago? MM.
00:34:03
S2: That's actually a pretty good question, Michael. Uh, you know, because I lived in Chicago. Of course, Moody Radio is based in Chicago. I live there. It's definitely a more secular environment in Chicago and in Los Angeles. Um, you know, Matt, when I think about, you know, you're you're based here in Southern California. You teach for us here at Biola University, a Talbot School of Theology. Why don't you kind of weigh in on that? What is it like in a more secular environment? And how do these truths come become real in a secular environment?
00:34:31
S4: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, I've lived both in Chicago and LA and also in Barcelona, which is even more secular than than here.
00:34:39
S2: Far more.
00:34:41
S4: Yeah. I think no matter where you are, you have to find your community. And if you can find people that hold you accountable, that encourage you, that challenge you, then it it is more difficult perhaps, but we can stand up and we can keep going. I mean, the way that I see it, the more secular it is, the more opportunities we have, right? I mean, we often think, you know, you mentioned back in Genesis, I think back to Jesus day, if you go back and look at the Roman Empire. I mean, they were it was evil back then. I mean, the, uh, the sexuality that existed in their culture, the political climate. I think it was much worse than where we are today. And yet, you see Paul and Jesus and Peter and all the others, not only standing up, but thriving and flourishing in that atmosphere. So it's challenging, but perhaps in a good way.
00:35:44
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. We're gonna continue our conversation with Matt and JP in just a moment and your calls. We have one final segment for your calls. (877) 548-3675. I didn't say so. Uh, Karen make sure we give Michael a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And again, one more segment for your calls, maybe about freedom in Christ, identity in Christ. (877) 548-3675. Continue our conversation with JP foster, Matt Williams and your calls. All right. We're back at Stetzer live. We've actually all of a sudden like nine of you decided to call. So I think we can try to get to some of these calls. But I need you, I need, I need Matt, I need JP and I need the callers to think of this in terms of a lightning round. So we're going to have fast questions or comments. And then we're going to have responses. And I'll throw it to one of you two gentlemen for the responses as well. Raj you're up. Go for it. You're live on the air.
00:36:52
S8: Yeah. My problem is overthinking. I tend to look at the worst case scenario, and I struggle with what I would call informational obesity. Besides the box breathing. Are there any techniques that you would recommend to kind of prioritize action steps so that I can kind of get out of my own head?
00:37:13
S2: Good, good, good. JP to you?
00:37:14
S3: Yeah. One way is if you know what. If you're in a situation and you want to know and you know the truth of what the biblical response is to whatever situation you are in, know it, write it, believe it and leave it. Just give it to God. So just surrender to him. So if you're in a situation with anxiety or worry, um, I cast all of my cares on Jesus and then give it to him and leave it at his feet. That's an easy way that I've, I've dealt with situations or trials or tests I've been in. I'm like, Lord, how are we going to fix this one? And I said, your word says this. Surrender it to him, give it to him, and let go and let go of it and trust him to do what he does.
00:37:52
S2: Good. Roger, we're going to give you a copy of the book, uh, Finding Freedom in Jesus 21 Attributes of Identity in Christ. I think that's the last one we can give away. Bev in Jupiter, Florida. Bev, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
00:38:04
S9: Thank you so much.
00:38:06
S2: Oh, sorry, Bev. We took you took a second for us to get you there. Let's come back to you in just a second. Let's go to Ed in Muncie, Indiana. You're live on the air. Jump right in. Ed.
00:38:15
S10: Uh, say amen to what you're saying. Uh, second Corinthians 517. If anyone be in Christ, they are new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. And when I feel discouraged, I just tell myself that verse. And I used to resist it for years. I used to hear pastors preach it and I thought, that's not me. I've still got sin that I'm dealing with. But when I said, wait a minute, the Bible tells me this. It's it must be. And when I started from that reference and just said, Ed, you're a new creation. And, and it just changed the whole this whole struggle. So I just praise the Lord that you all are, are giving this out. It's a wonderful thing. Thank you.
00:38:52
S2: Ed, I'd give you a copy of the book if I had any more, but what a great call. Thanks for your call. Let's go back to Bev in Jupiter, Florida. Bev, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
00:38:59
S9: It's wonderful. Thank you.
00:39:02
S2: Oh, okay. We're going to try back in just a bit. Uh, talk to us a little bit about the issue of being shame free, mat. And what is what does that mean for us to sort of walk in that? Well, how do you help people to walk in that?
00:39:16
S4: Yeah. Well, uh, Ed, the caller just mentioned the, the self-talk. Um, I started asking my students to pay attention to their self-talk because most of the time we don't, it just, this tape plays in our minds and we're not really aware of it. But once they paused and started listening to it, they wrote some pretty amazing things. Amazing. In a negative sense. They wrote down, this is what they tell themselves. I am not enough. I am so messed up. I wish I were someone else, I'll let people down. So that self-talk and that shame. And these are Christian students who about 80% of them grew up in the church and they're telling themselves these things. And so we spend a lot of time in my Gospel of John Klass talking about how Jesus came to remove shame. I think we do a good job in the church talking about forgiveness, and I think most of us get that, but we still carry that weight of guilt and shame. And so we spend some time talking to Jesus, not just about our sins, but about the ongoing weight that we carry. And we offer that to him. And, you know, you, you came to take away shame the prodigal son, right? Uh, the father ran. He shamed himself so that he could get to the son so that the son was not shamed. And so, uh, after my students start doing the breathing and the worship and the exercises that we lay out in the book, the one student wrote this, he said, my mental tape was very self-critical, negative, even toxic. It was harmful. But now that mental tape is practically gone, if it does start to play, I don't believe it anymore and I can switch over to my true identity in Christ. And that's after 12 weeks of meditating and praying through their identity in Christ. So yeah, that transformation can take place.
00:41:22
S2: So good, so good. Okay, let's go to Vicki in Illinois. Vicki, you're live on the air. Go right ahead with your question or your comment. Okay. I don't hear Vicki. So we'll try to come back there in just a little bit later on. Uh, talk to me a little bit, JP, about kind of how you like Matt mentioned students, but you're a pastor. Um, how do you try to like help everyday Christians think about themselves in terms of their identity in Christ? Again, the book is fighting for freedom of Jesus, the 21 attributes of your identity in Christ. So how do you try to help them to, as Christians, to find and live in their identity in Christ?
00:42:01
S3: One one thing we've done is a massive discipleship initiative at the church. So we are we are a Bible, Bible preaching, teaching church. And so what we've done is we've. Whatever sermon series we're in, we do discipleship groups that do a deep dive deeper dive into the sermon messages in groups. So we've, we've trained, uh, we had about 400, uh, trained leaders sign up and then we've had over a thousand disciples sign up to be discipled people members to be discipled. So what we've done is we've created a structure where whatever's preached or taught on Sunday, you don't have enough time on in one sermon to be able to go as deep as you probably wanted to. So we have a a second phase where during that week, our discipleship groups will meet and they'll do a deeper dive. And we've done that with all of our sermon series. We're doing that right now with finding Freedom in Jesus. So we have a deliberate, um, anchoring of people's identity in Christ. And we're doing a 21 day fast at the top of the year. We're going to go through every single term for 21 days. So I think you just have to be deliberate. I believe that we're also you can't do this alone. You have to grow in community as a church and you have to find your community. I think Matt just mentioned that having community makes a massive difference. I have my students, we meet, we, I lecture, but also have cohort groups where they meet together and they do reflections and discussion questions. And when you see the students, you see the first couple of weeks. By the time you get to about week eight to week 16, it's transformational. And I've seen students who started in undergrad in that particular group who they didn't know each other. And by the time that graduation comes, they're graduating, taking selfies, taking pictures with each other and their families together because they've, they've built a discipleship relationship where iron is sharpening iron and they're praying for each other. They're rooting for each other. So I think it's how we disciple how we as a church disciple people makes a significant difference. And what I've noticed is when we started these discipleship groups, they became evangelistic. So now we literally have members who are they'll be in the mall, they'll be shopping, they'll be in the grocery store, and they now can say, hey, would you join my discipleship group? So we're seeing a massive I know it was mentioned by another caller about LA being secular, but I believe what Matt said, we have a massive, a major, huge opportunity right here in Los Angeles where, well, if it's dark, we're the light. And if. And people are hungry for the truth and we're having an increase of disciples and evangelistic approaches that are really, really impacting our church. And I preached on loved. And over 70 people got saved in one service. I just preached on Holy last Sunday, and I think I don't have the final numbers yet, but I think at least at least Matt was there. I think 25, 27 people in one service got saved off of Holy. So people are hungry for truth. And if we can disciple them and teach the truth of God's Scripture from the pulpit, uh, I think the the Word of God will go forth. Um, and if you read acts, there's, there's a, a consistent pattern of the word of God was preached or taught and the people increased in numbers. If you read acts that. Yeah, you see that consistently. Uh, as you read, as you read the book of acts. So I believe in the Word of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, and we're disciples. So that's, that's just an initiative we've done here at our church that we're seeing success.
00:45:28
S2: Good deal, good deal. Matt, last word from you. We got one minute left. What exhortation would you do to the listeners listening about how they could walk in their identity in Christ?
00:45:38
S4: Yeah, I think a lot of times we think about people who are, uh, you know, a little bit messed up and that they need to think about their identity. But we've also written this for, you know, just a normal Christian to really grow in their confidence so that we can find that, as John ten says, the abundant and full life, that's what we really are looking for. We want to thrive and flourish as Christians in this world. And then the last term in the book is the term hopeful. I mean, we're we're not going to live it out the way that we want to. We're not going to experience everything that we want to experience in this life. But we're hopeful that one day we'll be in heaven and everything will be made right as we gather around the throne and worship for an eternity.
00:46:26
S2: Amen and amen. Matt Williams JP foster been our guest today here on Ed Stetzer live. We're thankful for the book, the resource that they provided for us, Finding Freedom in Jesus, the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And I'm super thankful for our team who's working hard today. We've got my producer Karen Hendren, engineer Merle Saint James, my associate producer, Alicia and Cheyenne has been manning the phones to hear today's program again and get all the links for the book and information. More about Matt and JP, go to Ed Stetzer live.com. Hey, thanks for listening. Looking forward to being back together next week.
S1: The following show is pre-recorded, so we won't be able to take your great calls.
00:00:08
S2: Well, this is Ed Stetzer live and it is a rainy day in Southern California. This is, you know, check on your Southern California friends. We don't, you know, we don't have this. We're not used to this, but here we are nevertheless. And so, and my guests are also in Southern California, but I recognize Ron over 200 outlets from coast to coast on terrestrial radio. Many of you listen, of course, via the podcast. You can go to Ed Stetzer live.com. And from there, a couple of clicks you voila downloaded and subscribed to the podcast as well. But every Saturday at this time, or whenever you're listening to this podcast, we have these conversations. Sometimes they're about engaging the cultural moments. Sometimes they're about kind of who we are in Christ. And matter of fact, that's going to be a big part of our conversation today. We're going to look at what it means to be a follower of Jesus and what it means to embrace our identity in Christ. So we're looking forward to our conversation. The topic of our book today. Our book discussion today is going to be Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And my guests are actually JP Foster and Matt Williams. Let me just tell you who they are, one at a time. Doctor JP foster serves as senior pastor of Faithful Central Bible Church, one of the largest African American churches in Los Angeles. He's also ministry affiliate faculty at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, and has led educational and humanitarian initiatives in Africa and in the UK. He's co-authored with Matt Williams, the new book Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Identity in Christ. And also, we don't normally have guests, but, you know, it's a dual authored book, so why not? Uh, doctor Matt Williams teaches New Testament. So you got doctor JP foster doctor Matt Williams he teaches new testament at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University since 2002. Before that he was a missionary in Spain. He's the editor and contributor for The Parables of Jesus, the miracles of Jesus, the prayers of Jesus, and what the New Testament authors really cared about. So let me just say, welcome to both of you, and we're glad that you're here. And, you know, you've kind of written a book that is intended to sort of help people, I guess, kind of dwell in or walk in or live in the freedom they have in Christ based on their identity in Christ. So let's let me start with you, JP, and say, ask you first, like, where did you come up with the idea that this was an important issue that Christians needed to think more about?
00:02:25
S3: Yeah. Thanks again for having us on. When it comes to the idea of the book, we notice that there's a widening gap of biblical illiteracy, um, amongst Christians. And Matt and I had noticed it in, in classrooms, we noticed it in churches, and we tried to figure out the best way to address the issue. And we would ask our survey students about who they are in Christ. They really couldn't articulate or express from Scripture who they actually were. And as a pastor, counseling parishioners and members, I realized many of the issues that I was counseling came down to identity issues that if they knew who they were in Christ, if they knew the nature, the character, the essence of God, that some of the issues they had, they would overcome them. And so the book has done a great job in teaching people how it is to walk out their identity. Many of us carry baggage before we came to Christ, and that process of spiritual formation and transformation is really why Matt and I sat down and said, how can we do this in a way? And we we had over 60 terms. We tried our best to get it down to, to. 21 for multiple reasons. One, if you have a personal devotional. 21 terms work. Many churches, such as mine. We start a. 21 day fast at the top of the year. So pastors and churches can actually walk through this as they fast for 21 days at the top of the year, a sermon series. The book has 21 attributes, but they're divided into seven different sections Created in Christ, restored in Christ, and confident in Christ. So pastors can actually do a sermon series, which I'm doing one right now. And also life groups. Many of us do discipleship initiatives in our churches. So we do life groups. There's reflection questions at the end that help you anchor your identity and wrestle with, um, overcoming some of the negative self-talk and strongholds that have grown in our minds over time. So that's the really what drove us to, to write this book.
00:04:24
S2: Well, I think it's fascinating. And I like the theme that's there. And, and I do think, I mean, there's something to be said. I mean, just in just let's take it outside of the Christian world for just a second, which is a strange phrase to say on Moody radio, but stay with me. Um, you know, having a proper understanding of identity is like basic counseling 101. Like they kind of say, yeah, you know who you sort of have your who you, who you perceive you're close to that values you all this is part of it. But then, you know, you know, Matt, we have the, the God of all the universe, God the father sends God the Son, who dies on the cross for our sin and. And we have an identity in Christ that then shapes us even more. Let me let me ask it on a negative way. Why do you think so often we sort of wander away from our true identity in Christ. Matt.
00:05:11
S4: Yeah, that's a great question. It's funny because both JP and I, our wives are both licensed marriage and family therapists. So when you say that this is just basic, you know, counseling and basic, um, what everybody in the world should know, we, we see that both in the Christian mindset, but also our wives talk about how people struggle. So yeah, if you, if you don't get this, um, you're going to struggle in every way. I mean, we, we did a podcast recently, um, that was basically about relationships and marriages. And if you struggle with self-image, just personally, you're going to have a hard time really loving your friends or your spouse. And I often tell my students about, oh, maybe ten, 12 years ago, we had a student at Biola who was literally a princess. Her dad was the king of Eswatini in Africa. And I tell them, you know, what kind of confidence do you think she walks around campus with, knowing that her dad's the king? And here we are. Our our father is the King of kings. I mean, the confidence that we should have and the struggles that we have with self-image, they should be eliminated when we understand who we really are.
00:06:35
S2: Yeah. No question, no question. And I think I think helping people to lean into that is a big part of it. And that's what we're going to open up our conversation for as well. Our phone number. And if you'd like to kind of talk about a little bit, maybe how you have sort of sought to find your identity in Christ, or maybe some words that somebody has encouraged you in that or maybe got a question for JP and Matt. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Again, our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Also, we're going to give away a copy. We have several copies of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. Uh, we're going to it's not to like, hey, I'm caller number seven. Um, can I have a book? It's, you know, insightful questions or comments. We'd love to receive them. Again, the number is (877) 548-3675. Okay. So so in the book, you kind of, you kind of want to invite believers into this journey of seeing themselves the way God sees them. And then these. 21 I mean, in Christ, they're kind of biblical attributes that and that we're trying to then call people to embrace them. Um, so, so let's talk a little bit about each kind of the identity does get a chapter or a section, but you, you base them on a biblical term on each of those times, you unpack a biblical term. So Jimmy kind of talk to us, the framing, like, what are some biblical terms? I mean, I see some of them here, like accepted or adopted. Pick one and then tell us how that, that, that theme or that term shapes our understanding of identity.
00:08:10
S3: One would be holy. Yeah. We learned that through Scripture that we're holy in Hebrews 1010, that we are holy by the sacrifice of Christ. I know sometimes we don't look at it that way. Um, we see that the sacrifice of Jesus, that we're, we're saved, we're redeemed, we're forgiven for our sins, and we're able to be in right standing before God. But when you think of holy, sometimes I think we don't realize that we are actually holy and holy means to be set apart from and set apart for God's purposes. I think for me personally, when I gave my life to Christ because I didn't grow up in church, when when people would say, you have to be holy or holy. It was almost unattainable to me because I never really fully understood what it meant. And in the church setting, holiness was about performance and behavior, and holiness was don't do this, don't wear that. And it really wasn't a heart thing for me. So when I started reading the scripture, I realized, if you trace of God says, I am holy, so you should be holy, but it means to be set apart from or to be devoted for. So even with the term holy, realizing that it is, it is a life that is devoted to God and set apart from the world, and it should be giving God glory in all of our purposes. So it moves me from a behavior based ideology or idea of holiness to understanding that it is in in Christ and the sacrifice of Christ. I have been made holy, set apart from the world, and set apart for God's purposes. And then that that aspect of me, knowing that if I'm going to be holy, I have to be. Understand, I'm set apart and I'm set. And I'm now positioned to give God glory. So my life now is devoted to God. And for me, that makes sense. But when holiness to me was given in a church context of don't wear this, you shouldn't wear that, and it becomes performance based, then if you mess up or you slip or something goes wrong, you end up depressed. So for me, I kept saying, well, no one around me is struggling. Everybody has this mask of holiness on, and I'm the one that's still struggling because when I gave my life to Christ, I had built habits over time that weren't that didn't line up with the God, the Word of God, or were antithetical to the things of God. So now I'm in a church setting where everyone seems like they're perfect. It's like Pleasantville. Everyone's perfect. No one has any issues. But here I am overcoming my my struggles because I've given my life to Christ. So I realized over time that that sanctification is not a light switch. It's, it's progressive. So I'm positioned in Christ, but I'm also being perfected. I'm, I am this perfective sanctification that comes when Jesus returns. But I'm now in this space of progressive sanctification, and in this space of progressive sanctification, I am I'm, I'm be being transformed. It's, it's in a continual tense. So every day my life should be being conformed into the image of Christ. And so that to me, when I understood the difference between a behavior based. Don't do this, don't do that to surrendering and sacrificing my life, my will to God. I realize we're holy first, we're holy because of Jesus, the sacrifice of Christ. But then now my mind says my life is devoted to God. So every day Paul says in Scripture, I die daily. Jesus says, if you want to be my disciple and I do want to be my disciple, he says, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me daily. And so I realized that sanctification or holiness being set apart is a daily process of me continuing to be formed and transformed into the image of Jesus Christ. And so that's just one term that that transformed my life completely when I first gave my life to Christ. But I had to read scripture and understand what God's Word said about things that are set apart or devoted to him. And now I'm live with you on the radio, and my life is holy, set apart for God's purposes and devoted to him and all that I do.
00:12:00
S2: So good, so good. We're going to continue our conversation in just a moment with JP foster. Matt Williams, our phone number for your calls (877) 548-3675. Talk about finding freedom in Jesus. Maybe that's something you're looking for. Maybe that's something you've walked through. Maybe you're living into your identity in Christ. Call us. Tell us about it. (877) 548-3675. This is Ed Stetzer live. I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology. And every Saturday, your radio host, give us a call (877) 548-3675. Okay. We are back at Stetzer live. We're having a conversation about finding freedom in Jesus. That's the name of the book subtitled the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. My guest, JP Foster and Matt Williams. We actually served together at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. JP actually also is the pastor of, well, primarily as the pastor of a local church in Los Angeles. But we are so glad that he teaches with us as well. Both of you, you know, been teaching for a while in different roles. You said at the beginning that you're kind of awareness of biblical literacy. You know, and we see this, you know, we're Biola University is one of the largest Christian universities in the world. Students come in, there's a faith requirement there. They often come in, however, maybe not living into their full identity in Christ. Let me go back to you, JP. When you're teaching those undergrads, you know, how do you help them think through some of these things? Maybe they grew up in a Christian home, but man, really just living in the riches of who you are in Christ. How do you how do you draw them to that?
00:13:40
S3: There's multiple ways. One is in biblical interpretation, helping them understand the narrative and the story of Scripture. So understanding who God is, understanding redemption in Christ. Um, the theological foundations of our faith. And the second would be spiritual formation. How do I form my, my life to have a life that's dedicated to Christ? And so students, many students, you'll see that, you know, they're young, they're undergrad students, and they're one of the most impactful things they're wrestling with is shame. And so, so they're coming in, they're excited about this environment of getting a Christian education, but they're also dealing with, um, forgiveness and shame and guilt from past sin or things that they're wrestling with in that, in that moment. And so I think the concepts of understanding that you are shame free and that when you're forgiven, God removes the shame and the guilt that comes with your sin. I think that's one of the hardest concepts, but also liberating and freeing concepts that students have have accepted, and also helping them understand the importance of the sacrifice of Christ so that they don't accept it as cheap grace. So there is an aspect of our sanctification process that we have to understand. If I'm holy, I'm also not perfect, but because I'm not perfect, I have to also remember what repentance actually is. Repentance is a 180 turn. It's to change your mind and turn your direction. I think just helping and walking through students and encouraging them that this is a process of sanctification, a process of Romans. Romans 121 through ten, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So there's an aspect of our mind that needs to be renewed in order for us to walk this out. Matt mentioned about our wives being therapists. Well, most people will tell you, if I can change my mind, I can change my behavior. Scripture says we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. So if I don't want to be conformed to the habits of this world or the culture of this world, then I have to be renewed. My mind has to be renewed. I think that's how rich this this process of formation is, even with the 21 terms. But even with biblical education and discipleship, that the more I understand whose I am, I understand who I am. So we ground them in understanding the essence, the nature and character of God. And then once they know who they are, we're better able to live out who we are as his children. And that that is what, what I've learned, uh, navigating, walking through and counseling with students and community. And to be honest with you, students need community. And I think sometimes they need mentorship, but they need community. And when we're working and wrestling with these things together in the community of Biola, a Christian university or your church, um, it makes a massive difference for sure.
00:16:33
S2: You know, it's interesting. Moody radio, of course, is a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. So we're like, we're thinking about students, you know, and one of the fun facts is if you look at, you know, Moody Bible Institute founding and the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, which is now called Biola University, they're founded by many of the same people and still dealing with the same issue. We want students to thrive and see really the gospel take root in their lives. Anyway, let's take a call from Andy Andy in Orange County. Andy, what's the deal with this rain we're experiencing right now? I don't even know what to do. I'm new to Orange County, like, and they shut everything down like they sent a text out to the. I think it was one of. My friend said they sent a text out the Orange County School District or something. I don't know who it was, but they said, hey, it's going to be big rain tomorrow. But we're still having school. Like, like we have to tell people we're still. Anyway. Andy understands. Andy, go ahead with your question or comment.
00:17:21
S5: Hey, thank you very much, gentlemen. God bless you first and foremost. And yeah, you know, this is one of six days of rain of the year. So I'll take the rain with the sunshine as we all need to. But I guess my question here, guys and gentlemen, and I just caught the tail end as I was popping into the car here. Uh, as we all have experienced crisis in our lives in one form or another. Uh, the your guest, uh, my question was when you committed your life to being more like Christ, was there a turning point that you could look back on and say, yep, at this, this moment, this day, maybe even this hour that I gave it all to God and never looked back. Was there any point in that? I have my own personal, but I was just curious for the.
00:18:10
S2: Yeah, like, like, let me let me follow up. So you mean like something more like, like where they had this kind of turning point moment where the saving life of Christ became real to them and they sort of like this was the or you mean like every day or a big crisis? Give us a little more.
00:18:24
S5: Yeah. No, like a like a actual like epiphany moment, I guess you could say, you know, like, hey, uh, at this time, it was during this crisis, this downfall, this loss of loved one. My family got divorced. Whatever. I lost my job, I. I was in the line at the food. Um.
00:18:45
S2: Okay. All right, well, let's let's let's get Matt to. Yeah, yeah, let's get Matt to weigh in. But you hold on because I want to give you a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. It kind of sounds a little bit Matt, like Andy's talking about like some you're a Christian. You had this sort of turning point I mentioned. I said the saving life of Christ because I was thinking of something, what we might call Keswick in spirituality. But is this, which probably is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down, but is there often a place where you kind of lean into maybe one time or you're like, man, I really get my identity. I want to walk in that. Or is it a sequential thing or both? Unpack that for us. Matt.
00:19:19
S4: Yeah. Andy. That's a great question because I think we all hope, as JP said earlier, that it's a light switch, right? That all of a sudden everything is perfect. But yeah, life isn't that way, is it? It's it's ups and downs. It's forward and back. Chuck Swindoll wrote an old book, three steps forward, two steps back. And so I can look back on my life. You know, I'm in my early 60s now, and I can think of moments where, you know, okay, this was an important moment. I remember sitting in my room, uh, thinking about the, uh, Isaiah sitting in the presence of God saying, oh my goodness, I am. I'm a sinful man. And that day, I committed to missions that I was going to go overseas and serve the Lord there. Uh, there was a time when I was meeting with students and I'm like, oh my goodness, am I going to really go after this and sacrifice my life for students? Um, so yeah, I think there's moments where we do this. There's moments where we, uh, you know, feel if we can use that word where we feel like we're holy, we feel like we're loved. But there's other moments when we wake up and we just don't feel that. And so we just keep trying to walk it out, knowing that these things are, are actually true. And the feelings oftentimes follow our mind and our beliefs.
00:20:45
S2: Okay. And why don't you, JP why don't you add in that as well? Because I'm kind of, I'm kind of interested. I think Andy's really also talking about maybe a crisis becomes a turning point of leaning into your identity in Christ. And I would say for me, I did have a time. I did have a time like that. Um, so what do you think, JP?
00:21:00
S3: Well, mine. Mine did. I had the same experience that Andy was describing. Mine actually happened on the campus of Biola. Um, I got injured playing basketball. I was, I was navigating, uh, being angry with God and wrestling with how could I be going through this physical issue? And I've given my life to Christ and I've surrendered everything. And now I'm, I want to be a neurosurgeon and, and play basketball. And now all of a sudden I can't do either because I'm just taking over a year to heal. And then I ended up praying. Coming to Biola's campus after praying with a few friends, came to Biola's campus just to do a tour, and I was in a season of my life where I was just hopeless and I was wrestling with God. What do you want? What do you want me to do with my life? Where does my. What are you going? What is what are we going to do? And I went on Biola's campus hopeless. And the tour guide took me to a dorm. And the name of this dorm is Hope. So here I am, hopeless. I go to this dorm in the name of this dorm is called Hope. I'm standing in the lobby of the dorm. The tour guide is telling me that this is the side for the for the men's dorm dormitory. This side is for the women's dormitory. And I'm watching the students come back and forth, back and forth, because I'm facing the door, the entrance and exit of the. Of the dorm called Hope. And I'm watching students come in. Two, two women, two ladies walk by and one gives me this, this stare, this just look. And I said, oh no, I don't know if I can go go to school here. That was a strange look. And she leaves. She comes back and she has tears in her eyes and she just says, I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm like, what is going on? And I'm like, I bet you I'm sorry because the way you looked at me, I didn't say it out loud, but in my mind, that's what I was thinking. And then she just says, you don't know me. I'm so sorry. But the Lord told me to tell you that this is going to be. He wants you to be here. This is going to be the foundation of your ministry to touch lives around the world. I said, what? And I just froze, and the tour guide looked at me and said, well, do you want to continue the tour or you want to fill out the application? And I said, can we do both? But that to me, I knew the Lord was leading my life into pastoral ministry. I didn't grow up in church, so I didn't know what that looked like. I knew Biola was an incredible place for me to grow and to to move forward, to do whatever the Lord was going to do in my life. But at that time, I knew basketball. I knew what I needed to do in order to be a neurosurgeon because it was all laid out. You go to medical school, you have to take these prerequisites. You have to do this school. And everything was laid out. But now going into ministry, it's like, Abraham, go to the land. I'm going to show you. I had no idea. But that moment of my hope in my hopelessness, but my openness to God and a dorm named Hope, he spoke. And from that moment, that was a turning point for me. I said, Lord, if this is what you want me to do, and I remember this, this in my my mind editor, you may not be I may not be a neurosurgeon. I may not be doing surgery to help people. Um, in, in, in hospital. But he, I felt the Lord telling me, but you'll get to help heal the most important part of the human existence. And that's the soul. And I just said, sign me up, Lord. I'll go. And that was a turning point for me. It pushed me into my purpose. It made me take my walk seriously because I'm now if I'm going to be pastoring, this isn't a joke. And so this really literally shaped and transformed. This was a major turning point in my life. And since then I've done everything I can to honor God. I'm not perfect, but to honor God and surrender my life to him and his will.
00:24:34
S2: Fascinating. Fascinating. Good. Good. Let's go. I think we got enough time for, uh, for the bottom of the hour. Let's go to Joe in Naperville, Illinois. Joe, you're live on the air with your question or comment. Go right ahead.
00:24:45
S6: Hi. Hey. Hey, thanks so much for having us. You know, this, uh, this message here today and, and, and JP and Matt. Hey, thanks for being here. This is amazing. Um, this topic here, you know, in Christ, you know, I, I really do love you and treasure it. Um, so thank you for speaking up on it. Um, you know, my question here is besides, uh, you know, getting God's word and studying his word, um, how do we grow in the participating grace of God? And by learning and accepting who we truly are in Christ, are new creatures in Christ and are broken and an imperfect vessel.
00:25:15
S2: Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. Uh, if you if you hold on line two, I'm going to give you a copy of, uh, of the book. Uh, Matt, can you can you address that in about one minute before the bottom of the hour?
00:25:24
S4: Yeah, yeah, that actually was a major focus for us because, you know, many people know who they are, but putting it into practice is difficult. So at the end of each chapter, we have reflective exercises. And one of them that we found really helpful is breathing exercises. And we don't empty our minds like in.
00:25:48
S2: Mat, I apologize, I'm going to jump. I'm going to jump in mat, I'm going to have you come back and continue that on the other side. Stay with us. We continue our conversation and hear from Matt Williams. Okay, we're back at center live. I kind of ran out of time. The bottom of the hour is a hard break, so it didn't really give Matt enough time to answer that question. So. So Matt, let's go back to you and then JP after Matt share a little bit, you just jump right in. So Matt, over to you.
00:26:22
S4: Yeah. Thanks, Ed. Yeah. So as I was saying, you know, a lot of times we intellectually know who we are in Christ, but it's putting that into practice. So at the end of each chapter, we have these reflective exercises, and one that my students have found particularly helpful are breathing exercises. And I mean, a lot of counselors talk about breathing, you know, 1 to 4 Navy Seals do the box breathing. Um, it's not, you know, new age spiritual spirituality where you empty your brain, but we fill it with truth. So for example, shame free, we breathe in, shame removed and we breathe out honor given. And that's based off of Zephaniah three. And then we ask them to go find a worship song and listen to that worship song. You know, I think most of us wake up in the morning with a song in our mind. And if we listen to the same song over and over again, we get that theme throughout the day and throughout the weeks. And then we have the definition for each term that they reflect on. And then just some basic exercises and reflective exercises where they really think through who they are and how to put it into practice day to day. So yeah, it's, it's the Pauline terms, the indicative leading to the imperative. It's the truth that we now live out in our life. It's faith leading to faithfulness. JP what do you got?
00:27:49
S3: No, that's that's incredible. Also, um, there's a, there's a phrase that was used by a caller of as broke a broken vessel God using a broken vessel. And when I heard that I, it immediately reminded me of, of our first chapter transformed in that first chapter, it explains how God transforms the lives of his people. And in that specific chapter, I just want to name some people that God transformed their lives. Who we would look at were broken vessels. Moses murdered someone. One. Paul was Saul before he became Paul. David was not a perfect vessel. He was a man after God's own heart. But he wasn't a perfect vessel. If you look at Mary Magdalene, you look at, um, many of the of people that God used in Scripture, you'll notice that they weren't perfect, but their lives were transformed because God, they were ordinary people that went on to do extraordinary things because they believed and trusted in an extraordinary God. Their lives were transformed. And so I'm not perfect. And I think if perfection is the criteria, in order for you to serve God, then we all have to sit down. We've been perfected by the works of Jesus Christ, and we have to walk out that relationship and, and, and our relationship with God. And then that leads to purpose. So because I have a relationship with God, how then does God want to use me? And throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, you'll see different characters throughout the story. Who. God got Ahold of them and transformed their lives, even those who were broken. He was able to use their life to get glory out of. So I would just encourage the callers to, to, to just think of if I've surrendered my life to God, he can deal with my brokenness. He dealt with Moses, the brokenness of Moses. He dealt with the brokenness of, of Abraham. He did before he was Abraham. He dealt with the brokenness of David. He dealt with the brokenness of Paul. He deals with our brokenness. He's dealt with and dealing with my brokenness. And as long as we're willing vessels to be used by him, and we take seriously his word and the calling, he'll he'll use us. And the ultimate goal is that he can get glory out of our lives.
00:30:12
S2: JP you say you can't destroy someone who knows who they are. And I was really struck by the idea that, you know, living into who we are in Christ. I mean, again, who we are. It is we were made this in Christ. We're declared this by Christ, by God in Christ. So. So tell me about the strength that comes from from knowing that.
00:30:34
S3: JP I'll give you I'll give you a personal testimony. I've, I've lost my younger brother and my older brother to accidental deaths in the within the last ten years. And if I did not know who I was in Christ, if I didn't realize that I was loved by God, if I didn't understand the the essence and nature of God, I could have spiraled badly. But because I knew who I was. And you know, our chapter in victorious lets us know that that we're not in battles alone and that we're not fighting for victory. We're fighting from the victory that we have in Christ. It makes a massive difference. I did, I do, I did grieve, I did go through, you know, stages of grief that that normal people go through in our humanity. But I think what kept me moving forward and what kept me purposeful and, uh, and, and still with strength was I knew who God was, and I knew that I was his child and me understanding his loving nature, me understanding that his, his thoughts are not my thoughts. His ways are not my ways. And leaning not on my own understanding and then knowing biblical truths of. To be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord, and to go to a place where there's no more pain, no more suffering. Those are the things. But if I didn't know those things, you know, I could have spiraled. Because when you lose people close to you, especially your siblings who you've grown up with your whole life, um, that you've fought with and fought for, and you just have incredible memories. And it's not as if I'm, I don't still have, I don't have pain from the loss, but because I know who I am in Christ. And because I know who God is, I almost feel like you're unstoppable. Because if God is on my side, you know, Scripture says, If God is for me, who can stand against me? So just me knowing who I am in Christ and me knowing who God is, it is. It has instilled a confidence in me that even though I go through battles, I go through tests, I go through trials. I always expect to come up, be an overcomer on the other side of it. And I'm willing to put lean more into God no matter what I'm facing. So I think those those, those that's where that, that, that thought and mentality comes from. Again, I'll say this one more time when you know who you are, you know who you are. And that's been transformative in my life.
00:32:59
S2: Amen. Our phone number for your calls (877) 548-3675. We're talking with JP Foster and Matt Williams. Their new book is Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. Let me hear from you. We got a couple calls lined up. I'm going to get to them in just a second, but love to hear from you about kind of what you're. When you try to think about understanding your identity in Christ, what gives you encouragement, exhortation, maybe even where you struggle and need advice. (877) 548-3675. Again, that's (877) 548-3675. Let's go to Michael in Dayton, Ohio. You're live on the air, Michael. Go right ahead.
00:33:37
S7: Yeah, I was just curious. I'm reading back through Genesis and thinking about our current climate. Uh, as in the days of Noah's coming about. And I was just wondering, is it more difficult to walk, walk out the, uh, life in Christ in areas where the political climate seems to be more anti-God, like in L.A. and Chicago? MM.
00:34:03
S2: That's actually a pretty good question, Michael. Uh, you know, because I lived in Chicago. Of course, Moody Radio is based in Chicago. I live there. It's definitely a more secular environment in Chicago and in Los Angeles. Um, you know, Matt, when I think about, you know, you're you're based here in Southern California. You teach for us here at Biola University, a Talbot School of Theology. Why don't you kind of weigh in on that? What is it like in a more secular environment? And how do these truths come become real in a secular environment?
00:34:31
S4: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, I've lived both in Chicago and LA and also in Barcelona, which is even more secular than than here.
00:34:39
S2: Far more.
00:34:41
S4: Yeah. I think no matter where you are, you have to find your community. And if you can find people that hold you accountable, that encourage you, that challenge you, then it it is more difficult perhaps, but we can stand up and we can keep going. I mean, the way that I see it, the more secular it is, the more opportunities we have, right? I mean, we often think, you know, you mentioned back in Genesis, I think back to Jesus day, if you go back and look at the Roman Empire. I mean, they were it was evil back then. I mean, the, uh, the sexuality that existed in their culture, the political climate. I think it was much worse than where we are today. And yet, you see Paul and Jesus and Peter and all the others, not only standing up, but thriving and flourishing in that atmosphere. So it's challenging, but perhaps in a good way.
00:35:44
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. We're gonna continue our conversation with Matt and JP in just a moment and your calls. We have one final segment for your calls. (877) 548-3675. I didn't say so. Uh, Karen make sure we give Michael a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus the 21 attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And again, one more segment for your calls, maybe about freedom in Christ, identity in Christ. (877) 548-3675. Continue our conversation with JP foster, Matt Williams and your calls. All right. We're back at Stetzer live. We've actually all of a sudden like nine of you decided to call. So I think we can try to get to some of these calls. But I need you, I need, I need Matt, I need JP and I need the callers to think of this in terms of a lightning round. So we're going to have fast questions or comments. And then we're going to have responses. And I'll throw it to one of you two gentlemen for the responses as well. Raj you're up. Go for it. You're live on the air.
00:36:52
S8: Yeah. My problem is overthinking. I tend to look at the worst case scenario, and I struggle with what I would call informational obesity. Besides the box breathing. Are there any techniques that you would recommend to kind of prioritize action steps so that I can kind of get out of my own head?
00:37:13
S2: Good, good, good. JP to you?
00:37:14
S3: Yeah. One way is if you know what. If you're in a situation and you want to know and you know the truth of what the biblical response is to whatever situation you are in, know it, write it, believe it and leave it. Just give it to God. So just surrender to him. So if you're in a situation with anxiety or worry, um, I cast all of my cares on Jesus and then give it to him and leave it at his feet. That's an easy way that I've, I've dealt with situations or trials or tests I've been in. I'm like, Lord, how are we going to fix this one? And I said, your word says this. Surrender it to him, give it to him, and let go and let go of it and trust him to do what he does.
00:37:52
S2: Good. Roger, we're going to give you a copy of the book, uh, Finding Freedom in Jesus 21 Attributes of Identity in Christ. I think that's the last one we can give away. Bev in Jupiter, Florida. Bev, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
00:38:04
S9: Thank you so much.
00:38:06
S2: Oh, sorry, Bev. We took you took a second for us to get you there. Let's come back to you in just a second. Let's go to Ed in Muncie, Indiana. You're live on the air. Jump right in. Ed.
00:38:15
S10: Uh, say amen to what you're saying. Uh, second Corinthians 517. If anyone be in Christ, they are new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. And when I feel discouraged, I just tell myself that verse. And I used to resist it for years. I used to hear pastors preach it and I thought, that's not me. I've still got sin that I'm dealing with. But when I said, wait a minute, the Bible tells me this. It's it must be. And when I started from that reference and just said, Ed, you're a new creation. And, and it just changed the whole this whole struggle. So I just praise the Lord that you all are, are giving this out. It's a wonderful thing. Thank you.
00:38:52
S2: Ed, I'd give you a copy of the book if I had any more, but what a great call. Thanks for your call. Let's go back to Bev in Jupiter, Florida. Bev, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
00:38:59
S9: It's wonderful. Thank you.
00:39:02
S2: Oh, okay. We're going to try back in just a bit. Uh, talk to us a little bit about the issue of being shame free, mat. And what is what does that mean for us to sort of walk in that? Well, how do you help people to walk in that?
00:39:16
S4: Yeah. Well, uh, Ed, the caller just mentioned the, the self-talk. Um, I started asking my students to pay attention to their self-talk because most of the time we don't, it just, this tape plays in our minds and we're not really aware of it. But once they paused and started listening to it, they wrote some pretty amazing things. Amazing. In a negative sense. They wrote down, this is what they tell themselves. I am not enough. I am so messed up. I wish I were someone else, I'll let people down. So that self-talk and that shame. And these are Christian students who about 80% of them grew up in the church and they're telling themselves these things. And so we spend a lot of time in my Gospel of John Klass talking about how Jesus came to remove shame. I think we do a good job in the church talking about forgiveness, and I think most of us get that, but we still carry that weight of guilt and shame. And so we spend some time talking to Jesus, not just about our sins, but about the ongoing weight that we carry. And we offer that to him. And, you know, you, you came to take away shame the prodigal son, right? Uh, the father ran. He shamed himself so that he could get to the son so that the son was not shamed. And so, uh, after my students start doing the breathing and the worship and the exercises that we lay out in the book, the one student wrote this, he said, my mental tape was very self-critical, negative, even toxic. It was harmful. But now that mental tape is practically gone, if it does start to play, I don't believe it anymore and I can switch over to my true identity in Christ. And that's after 12 weeks of meditating and praying through their identity in Christ. So yeah, that transformation can take place.
00:41:22
S2: So good, so good. Okay, let's go to Vicki in Illinois. Vicki, you're live on the air. Go right ahead with your question or your comment. Okay. I don't hear Vicki. So we'll try to come back there in just a little bit later on. Uh, talk to me a little bit, JP, about kind of how you like Matt mentioned students, but you're a pastor. Um, how do you try to like help everyday Christians think about themselves in terms of their identity in Christ? Again, the book is fighting for freedom of Jesus, the 21 attributes of your identity in Christ. So how do you try to help them to, as Christians, to find and live in their identity in Christ?
00:42:01
S3: One one thing we've done is a massive discipleship initiative at the church. So we are we are a Bible, Bible preaching, teaching church. And so what we've done is we've. Whatever sermon series we're in, we do discipleship groups that do a deep dive deeper dive into the sermon messages in groups. So we've, we've trained, uh, we had about 400, uh, trained leaders sign up and then we've had over a thousand disciples sign up to be discipled people members to be discipled. So what we've done is we've created a structure where whatever's preached or taught on Sunday, you don't have enough time on in one sermon to be able to go as deep as you probably wanted to. So we have a a second phase where during that week, our discipleship groups will meet and they'll do a deeper dive. And we've done that with all of our sermon series. We're doing that right now with finding Freedom in Jesus. So we have a deliberate, um, anchoring of people's identity in Christ. And we're doing a 21 day fast at the top of the year. We're going to go through every single term for 21 days. So I think you just have to be deliberate. I believe that we're also you can't do this alone. You have to grow in community as a church and you have to find your community. I think Matt just mentioned that having community makes a massive difference. I have my students, we meet, we, I lecture, but also have cohort groups where they meet together and they do reflections and discussion questions. And when you see the students, you see the first couple of weeks. By the time you get to about week eight to week 16, it's transformational. And I've seen students who started in undergrad in that particular group who they didn't know each other. And by the time that graduation comes, they're graduating, taking selfies, taking pictures with each other and their families together because they've, they've built a discipleship relationship where iron is sharpening iron and they're praying for each other. They're rooting for each other. So I think it's how we disciple how we as a church disciple people makes a significant difference. And what I've noticed is when we started these discipleship groups, they became evangelistic. So now we literally have members who are they'll be in the mall, they'll be shopping, they'll be in the grocery store, and they now can say, hey, would you join my discipleship group? So we're seeing a massive I know it was mentioned by another caller about LA being secular, but I believe what Matt said, we have a massive, a major, huge opportunity right here in Los Angeles where, well, if it's dark, we're the light. And if. And people are hungry for the truth and we're having an increase of disciples and evangelistic approaches that are really, really impacting our church. And I preached on loved. And over 70 people got saved in one service. I just preached on Holy last Sunday, and I think I don't have the final numbers yet, but I think at least at least Matt was there. I think 25, 27 people in one service got saved off of Holy. So people are hungry for truth. And if we can disciple them and teach the truth of God's Scripture from the pulpit, uh, I think the the Word of God will go forth. Um, and if you read acts, there's, there's a, a consistent pattern of the word of God was preached or taught and the people increased in numbers. If you read acts that. Yeah, you see that consistently. Uh, as you read, as you read the book of acts. So I believe in the Word of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, and we're disciples. So that's, that's just an initiative we've done here at our church that we're seeing success.
00:45:28
S2: Good deal, good deal. Matt, last word from you. We got one minute left. What exhortation would you do to the listeners listening about how they could walk in their identity in Christ?
00:45:38
S4: Yeah, I think a lot of times we think about people who are, uh, you know, a little bit messed up and that they need to think about their identity. But we've also written this for, you know, just a normal Christian to really grow in their confidence so that we can find that, as John ten says, the abundant and full life, that's what we really are looking for. We want to thrive and flourish as Christians in this world. And then the last term in the book is the term hopeful. I mean, we're we're not going to live it out the way that we want to. We're not going to experience everything that we want to experience in this life. But we're hopeful that one day we'll be in heaven and everything will be made right as we gather around the throne and worship for an eternity.
00:46:26
S2: Amen and amen. Matt Williams JP foster been our guest today here on Ed Stetzer live. We're thankful for the book, the resource that they provided for us, Finding Freedom in Jesus, the 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ. And I'm super thankful for our team who's working hard today. We've got my producer Karen Hendren, engineer Merle Saint James, my associate producer, Alicia and Cheyenne has been manning the phones to hear today's program again and get all the links for the book and information. More about Matt and JP, go to Ed Stetzer live.com. Hey, thanks for listening. Looking forward to being back together next week.
