00:00:07
S1: Well, this is live. And of course I'm Ed Stetzer. This in every Saturday we have conversations here live coast to coast, 250 stations and outlets across the country. And lots, lots of you listen to this podcast later on. I'm happy to do that. Go to Ed stetzer.com. You can find the links to all the Moody radio podcasts there as well. So thank you for listening on Moody Radio, our partners and affiliates as well. As I said, my name is Ed Stetzer. I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. You may have read the news that we now have campuses in Phoenix and Los Angeles, or excited what the Lord is doing here. Uh, for our conversation here today, I get to be your radio host this. And every Saturday I try to bring interesting guests to talk about, I hope, helpful and interesting topics. And I think that's what we're going to have today as well. If you haven't been paying attention, there's a bit of a crisis. Maybe that's not strong enough a word. There's a crisis of manhood in our country, particularly with young men, there's a high level of uncertainty about what it means to be a man, how to live as a man. And I want you to know that the answers to this are not generally going well. Um, I think there's some resurgence of interest in Christianity. I mean, we can see that statistically. I wrote about it in USA today. Some young men are turning to faith in Jesus Christ and thank God for that. We want more of that, not less of that. But I do think when you look at the bigger picture, probably more young men are being influenced by people like Andrew Tate than they are by their local church and being discipled by an older man in their local church. So it's a crisis of young men. Now I have all daughters. Uh, matter of fact, I since I've been with you last time on the radio show, I've been in Europe. If you listen to the last few weeks I've been in the UK, I was teaching at Oxford and then went up to Scotland and did some shows there, uh, last week with an Oxford professor in the Old Testament. Um, if you're, if you're enjoying the podcast, the Stetzer Church leaders podcast, I have an entry, right Wright interview that just dropped and Alister McGrath interviews some fun things there. But while I was there, I brought along a. My daughter and I, you know, I teach for two weeks there at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford. And then we went on, as they say, holiday up to a couple of places in England. And while there, uh, my daughter, my, my daughter was uh, we had a little surprise proposal and her boyfriend is now her fiance. And so I have only daughters. So, you know, I'm just learned, I don't know if you know this, but you actually have to pay for those weddings. You probably do that. But anyway, I got three of them. But, um, but, you know, I didn't really know there was this crisis of young men, partly because I was raising daughters. And, and I will tell you, that's a lot of work. It's not easy being a young woman these days. But then, uh, you know, my daughters would share with me and then, you know, meeting their friends. I mean, there there's a crisis of young men in our country. Many of them have become. The language I use when I'm speaking now is they've become unmoored from the culture. They've become unmoored from their future. Like a boat moored to the shore. They become unmoored from their hopes and dreams that maybe their parents or dads had, and now they're not quite sure what the future holds. Some of them many of them are being influenced by people like Andrew Tate or Nick Fuentes or even Joe Rogan. I don't put them in the same category. Jordan Peterson I don't put them in the same category as some of the worst and some like Andrew Tate. But but I don't I want them to be discipled by, by, by their churches. I want I want young men to be challenged by the truth claims of the gospel. I want young men to live as godly young men. So there's a lot of people talking about that, and I'm glad that they are. And I have a couple of two guests today who are going to help us to think about these things. But I wanted to frame a little bit about about kind of the crisis before we get there. So David Lindell is pastor at James River church, serves as a pastor of James River church. He's passionate about developing leaders, championing local church, teaching the Bible. He and his wife, Becky, have four children. He has a th.m from Dallas Theological Seminary. Brandon Lindell serves as pastor at James River church. Also, he loves inspiring people to pursue God's presence, grow in their effectiveness, and build the church through preaching, worship, song writing, and the arts. He and his wife, Beth, have four children now. What's also fun about them? I've preached at their church several times and I've known them I when they were younger and now sort of watch, you know, kind of the journey that they've been on both in the church and personally. It's been, it's been kind of neat to see. So let me just say welcome, David and Brandon, thanks for joining us on here on Ed Stetzer live.
00:04:24
S2: We are thrilled. Ed, we love you so much. You've been such a help. Uh, honestly, a godsend at moments wisdom and, uh, just a great soundboard, but also your Bible teaching is exceptional. And so we're grateful to be on the show. This is awesome.
00:04:39
S3: Yeah, absolutely. This is a huge privilege and we're excited to talk about, I thought you set it up so well, what we're discussing today.
00:04:47
S1: Yeah. I mean, it's a mess out there, right? It's a mess. And, and a lot of people, you know that when the people have unmoored themselves, you know, I was thinking about my dad, you know. My dad died a little over a year ago. His birthday was just this week, and I thought about his childhood. He grew up in New York City. He got a job as a Union Iron Lawyer. There was kind of a clear path to the middle class for him. You know, grew up in Flatbush and then Queens and then eventually in Levittown. And young men knew what to do next. They knew what it meant to be a young man. It wasn't always, you know, my dad wasn't a Christian. It wasn't always godly. But there was a sense that we knew what manhood looked like. And then that all collapsed and and now it's being rebuilt in ways that that are not great. And yet sometimes we find people who are calling for a, a good, strong biblical approach to manhood. So we're going to go on this conversation today. Let me let me just invite you to call in if you're so inclined. Our numbers, by the way, we're going to talk about maybe you got questions about what it means to be a man. Maybe you have thoughts about this. 87754836758775483675. And and so I just want to start and talk a little bit about the book and, and of course, you wrote this book and the title sort of gives away so much of the theme. It's called Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living focused, fulfilled and Fearless, which I would say a lot of young men are not particularly focused and not fulfilled, and they're not fearless. Or maybe they've become fearless in ways that are not particularly helpful. But the theme is a big part of the theme is, is knowing what it means to be a man. So David, let's let's start with you and help me kind of understand, like, where did this passion come from in you? Because obviously you feel men lack direction, but where did you like say, man, I got a burden for this and I need to write this. Start with David.
00:06:33
S2: Yeah. We just we got into some conversations and honestly, they lasted a number of years around what you see in the Proverbs, because the Proverbs is a father son dynamic, by and large, and there is all kinds of wisdom. Obviously, all of these clues to how to live life well. And yet I kept coming back. And in our conversations, Brandon and I kept centering on Proverbs 423, which says, above all else, guard your heart, because everything you do flows from it. And it occurred to us as pastors, particularly interactions with men, caused us to become more and more aware that a lot of guys don't have any clue how to apply that verse or what their heart even is. Uh, I think if you surveyed a lot of Christians and you ask them to define the heart, you would get probably as many answers as you asked people. Um, there's just not a lot of clarity around, okay, what is the heart and why does it even matter? And so the center, the epicenter of who you are as a man, um, what informs that? And what, what is that? What is it that God would do with your heart if you yielded it to him? And how does that affect the trajectory of your life, and how does that affect your purpose? All of those questions are bound up, we think, in that verse. And so really, the project emanated out of the understanding of the proverbs in that relational dynamic that is playing out in the wisdom of a father to a son, but then also just the reality of the, uh, the rudderless or as you say, the unmoored nature of men and sadly, men in the church. Like there's just, we, we interact with a lot of guys. And I think all of them are trying for the most part, I think all of these guys are trying. Um, and I think some of them are trying really hard. It's just that they, for whatever reason, it could be the home they grew up in, it could be the cultural voices that they've allowed to have a lot of, um, say and influence in their life. They just find themselves struggling to get a stick on. What am I supposed to do with my life? What is my life supposed to be about? And I feel like it's kind of a little bit of a ping pong, uh, situation where they hear a voice and they they like certain things in that voice. You name some of the voices that are prominent. And so they hear something from a Joe Rogan or they hear something, um, from even a Nick Fuentes and they go, oh, I kind of resonate with that. And then they, they go, oh, well, you know, then they hear something from somebody else. And so it's kind of just they're bouncing back and forth without a clear target. And so anybody who throws up a target and it looks appealing, and it speaks to some of the desires that God wired them with, they gravitate toward that. And unfortunately, the devil loves to co-opt those desires. He loves to distort. He loves to imitate what God created us to, um, be fulfilled by and then take us off course with that. And, you know, I think that that story is as old as humanity. And yet in this moment, it's particularly apt for young men. And so that's the heart of the book is like, okay, as you said, most men, most young men are not defined by the subtitle, which is focus fulfilled and fearless. So how do we get there in a biblical and godly manner? Because there is a path for that. It's just knowing what that path is. And so that is the that is the crux of the book. That's what this whole thing is about.
00:10:05
S1: Yeah. And the subtitle is, it's not just like sometimes the subtitle is just some catchy way. I mean, it is sort of the structure of the book focused, fulfilled, and fearless. Those three themes are obviously central to what you're talking about. Brandon. Why is that? Why those three things?
00:10:21
S3: Well, I think, you know, even as David was talking, I was thinking, man, a lot of men live frustrated, unfocused and fearful because they have like you're saying, they're unmoored, they're untethered, they have other struggles that they're facing, challenges. They're facing things that are causing frustrations. But because they're untethered, they don't have any vision from the Word of God. They're untethered to a godly community like you're talking about when it comes to where they're getting their inputs, they're not getting inputs from godly older men. They don't even have those in their lives. And it's oftentimes because they disconnect, because those relationships, whenever they do get challenged, become uncomfortable. And, and so they disconnect from them. And all of that combined causes them to kind of live in this spiral of that unfocused, uh, just frustration and, and they don't even realize that, hey, these are things that you can't just go to a different location. You can't just get a different girlfriend. You can't just divorce your wife and find a new wife. You can't just find a new church. And that will fix everything because the core issue is the heart. And until you get those things in the heart fixed, uh, you're going to continually find yourself in similar problems. And so that's why when we're talking about the heart, people have to get a vision for, okay, how am I going to become grounded inside? How am I going? I need to have a vision for what God has called me to be, who God has called me to be. And that comes from the Word of God, and that comes from people in your life who love the Lord, who are willing to speak to you and talk to you even when it's uncomfortable, and you being willing to take that in. So and tell people understand the problem, like David is saying of the heart, and they stop looking at exterior things and blaming exterior things. That's really the first starting point to getting that grounding that helps you live focused, live fulfilled, live fearless. You have to get the foundational and identify that foundational problem. This is a heart issue. Now that I have that understanding, how do I fix the heart? Obviously a relationship with Jesus. We all would say that's a starting point and you definitely need that. But then getting in the Word of God and saying, you know, okay, what does God say about my identity? What does God say about who I am? What does God say about how I should deal with problems in my life and then helping getting people around your life who can help you identify those things in your life that don't look like a godly man? Because if you don't, if you don't have somebody speaking to your life, you'll never have perspective. And so when we look at that subtitle, it just helps people because I just really believe, and David and I both have seen this in the guys that we pastor. And, you know, every once in a while as a believer, you walk through moments where you're like, man, I, I am not focused like I should be. I'm not, I'm not living like I should be. And you have to go back to the heart. So when you see those things in your own life, or you see those things in the guys around you, we wanted to write something that helps those guys be like, okay, here's how you stay on track. Here's how you get grounded, here's why this is happening, and identify those things to help lift them out of that and really make them a stronger man. You know, the Bible says the wicked flee, though no one pursues, the righteous are as bold as a lion. And when you get the heart right, you find yourself in that fearless zone of saying, okay, you know what? I'm not going to run from this challenge. I'm going to I'm going to go at this challenge, but I'm going to do it in a godly way because I have a godly grounding, I have a godly vision, and I've gotten the inside healthy and I've gotten the inside right.
00:14:09
S1: So good, so good. I can't go wrong with little Proverbs 281 the wicked flee, the one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. The book is lion hearted. A man's guide to living, a focus fulfilled. Excuse me to living focus fulfilled and fearless. We're going to take your calls. Let's give a shout at eight, 775483675. We're going to give away three copies of the book, two brilliant callers with comments or questions. (877) 548-3675. We'll continue our conversation about manhood and your calls in just a moment. Ed Stetzer live. The book we're talking about is Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless by David and Brandon Lindell. Um, and, um, and, and I always pronounce your name two different ways, the Lindell's and Lindell. So please forgive me. David and Brandon. It's just a habit I can't seem to get out of for ten years. 15 years I've done that. But, um, so when we talk about this topic, you know, part of my concern is I've been around enough, you know, I'm in my late 50s, I'm in my late 50s, like, there's like a month left in the 50s. And, uh, on this journey, I've seen some people call, uh, ministries books say things like, you know, you got to be tough, you got to be a man. And, you know, and even to the point where it's like, you know, rebuking people who, you know, didn't, didn't, it didn't take a punch and, you know, whatever else it may be. And and to the point it's actually I mean, I've seen it just to be honest, cause some destruction in the lives of a lot of men who, who maybe couldn't live up to this idealized, hyper masculine, uh, not not like this is what Jesus is like, but like, this is what you must be like. And I was, I was pleasantly pleased when I looked through the book that I mean, you talk about things like, like, uh, you talk about, you know, passive men. I want to talk about that. But you talk about, you know, fatherhood and you talk about spiritual leadership. And I, uh, you know, and, and again, you draw from the proverbs there as well. So, so David, I mean, you're not as old as me. Um, and I remember when you're much younger, but like, how, how do you kind of navigate without calling people to this kind of, I don't know if it's a fake. It's, it's, it's, it's this something that I don't know that it aligns with the scripture, but it certainly aligns with the cultural moment. You got to learn to punch people and you got to punch hard. And that's what a Christian man looks like. So how did you navigate some of those questions?
00:16:43
S2: Well, I think that, um, voices that maybe articulate those things seem to isolate, um, certain images of Jesus or isolate parts of Scripture. And obviously that's not new. Um, anybody who's pushing a particular vision of something, um, to the exclusion of other things is going to isolate parts of scripture to make their point. But, you know, so Jesus is only flipping tables. Um, or Jesus is, you know, he's only, um, he's only talking in certain ways. And so when we isolate those parts of the eye, you know, the, the person of Jesus, or when we isolate those parts of Scripture, well, then certainly it makes it very easy, uh, to characterize godly masculinity or what Christian manhood is in light of, um, over like an Uber macho, uh, testosterone overdrive, like in your face. Eight on the Enneagram. Uh, take no prisoners. And here's the reality. We need guys who will speak the truth. So, I mean, the fact of the matter is we're in a, I believe, a cultural crisis where truth seems to matter less and less every day. And it's not really that it matters less. It's that we treat it like it matters less. And so Christians have to be people of the truth. And we all get the fact that if you're going to tell the truth, that's going to, as Brandon said earlier, that can create some uncomfortable conversations. And so there is a side of manhood and godly masculinity where you have to be willing to push into discomfort to do the hard things. Obviously, that's part of it. And yet if we skew that toward domineering, if we skew that toward, um, name calling every skew that toward, um, brute force. Well, then we're going to get off track. So it's, you know, the fact of the matter is there's a, a real, I don't know if balance is the word, but there's certainly, uh, it's not just one channel. And so I think that is in some ways the reason why guys have gravitated toward, um, some voices and culture that you named earlier. Um, but there is a, there's like a, this is what you have to do. And some of those voices are very like dominance forward. And if you're a, you know, if you're like a take charge guy, like that's your personality. Hey, great. Like steward that well for the glory of God, but not every personality is built the same. We all know this. It's just the issue is how do you live out within the the character traits? I mean, and I guess the personality traits and sort of the wiring that God created you with. How do you then then do what Jesus would do? How do you live a godly life? How do you you still have to lead your family. You still have to be an influence in the the darkness to point people to Jesus. And that's going to take guts. And so that's not off the table. It's just that the way that that manifests itself is not a one size fits all thing. And I think sometimes guys gravitate to these podcasters, influencers that are very, um, intense in their presentation and their, the way they characterize manhood because they're happy to hear somebody talk about that. But in real life, like if they were actually having a conversation and somebody was calling them out, they aren't going to do that. They're, they're going to shrink back from that. So it's fake. I mean, honestly, there's a certain group who listens to that who are eating it up like ice cream, and that's the way they live. But I think there's a lot of vicarious like machismo or whatever going on with people who are listening to this stuff going, man, I wish I was that there. Like I could, you know, there because they, they, they live afraid, they live unfocused, they live fearless, and they aren't willing to push into the hard conversations. So in answer to your question, I don't want to get too far off track, but I think there is a there's a gravitational pull to those voices because it's. We we do respect people who can stand up and be counted. We do respect that kind of intensity that says, oh, I'm going to step into the fray, but just make sure you're doing it over the right things, that you're not dying on every hill, that you're not dominating in your home, but you're laying down your life as a servant because it's way harder to lay down your life and serve than it is to yell directives and be the boss and the big guy and push people around. It's just harder to serve. So if you really want to be a man and do what Jesus did, come and lay down your life. Love people who don't like you. Uh. Love them to Jesus. Get tell them the truth and have a lot of grace in it. Like all of those things to me are so much harder to do in real life. And actually, when somebody confronts you, repent. How about that? Like that's harder to do than it is to walk around with your chest thrown out, uh, you know, telling everybody else what to do. So yeah, be bold, be courageous, but also be a servant and love people. Well, uh, love them. Have the gospel on your lips, but also live it in your life. So I think that all of those things to me go together in that answer.
00:22:16
S1: Yeah, I love that they do go together for you. And that's one of the things that kind of is kind of woven throughout, uh, the Lion-hearted A Man's Guide to Focus fulfilled and fearless. Being focused, living focused. Excuse me. Uh, Brandon, I mean, one of the things that you talk about in the book is passivity and the Crisis of Passive men. And. And I think David even talked a little bit about, you know, sometimes, you know, passive men listening to podcasts, getting all riled up and then doing nothing is really the same thing of being passive. But why do you think men tend to drift into passivity? What, what, what gets us there?
00:22:51
S3: Yeah, I think I think that's a great question for a lot of guys. I believe they go there because they feel that even if they face the challenge or they've tried or they've they've attacked it from different angles and nothing seems to be moving. So the best way for them to navigate that frustration is just to escape. So they escape to the garage and work on a car, which there's nothing wrong with that. But if that becomes an escape from your family and escape from your marriage and escape from your own personal problems, then that's not what godly manhood looks like. That could be a hobby where they're always out with the guys and they're not actually taking care of their kids, or they're not actually working their job like they should. And so it, it all mixes together, just like David is saying, it's a both thing. It's not about being, uh, hyper masculine, but it also isn't about just, you know, being like, whatever, you know, and I'm going to take my foot off the gas. And I think a lot of guys, they find themselves navigating to one of those extremes. And the middle is so much more challenging to be like, okay, I actually don't know how to solve this problem. Like, I don't know what every answer is, but I do know what the word of God says, and it does say engage. So maybe it's a guy and they don't know how to be a good godly dad, and they actually don't think it's working very well. Some of the things that they're doing with their kids, yet they're instead of being like, oh man, I'm not, I'm, I'm just going to step away and quit trying. They engage and say, okay, I guess I need to pray and ask the Lord to help me and to make up for the places that I don't know and, and to do what I can't do. And I'm going to engage. And that can be in any place in their life where they feel like I don't have what it takes to actually succeed here, or to look like I know what I'm doing as a strong man. And so they have to say, okay, am I going to back off? AM I going to get distracted? And that once again, it's like, okay, they want to lead their, their home in a godly way. And there's some pushback from that with their, their spouse. And they, they're like, man, this is so difficult right now. How do I navigate this? And rather than saying, okay, I'm just, I just quit. I'm going to go where I can be successful. I'm going to go where people think I'm the boss and people think I'm the man. No, I'm going to engage and I'm going to continually find ways to do this well. And when a guy does that, uh, obviously that's a challenge. But the Lord can help that guy there if they just say, hey, I need your help, Lord.
00:25:43
S1: Let's take your calls. (877) 548-3675. We got five copies of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless to Give away love to hear your thoughts on manhood, how you navigate it, exhortations and more. Eight. 775483675. All right, we're back and you're on live. We're talking to about the book Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus Fulfilled and Fearless. Both David and Brandon are with us, the co authors, and we're going to take your calls and get into conversation. Maybe you got a question about, you know, how to raise a godly young man. Maybe you got a question about how to how to assert a place of manliness in your own life and or maybe a question about what it looks like to leadership or not to be passive or what boldness looks like in a Christlike way. Our number is 87754836758775483675. Of course, it's also Father's Day weekend, which is one of the reasons we had David and Brandon on. But another one of the reasons is like, I know their dad. And you know, when I would preach in there, they weren't the they weren't stepping into the lead roles that they're doing now, but I know their dad. And then to see the next generation in them and then to see them speak, you know, them having children, it's the kind of thing that for me that I think an example of something that we need to see more of celebrating, uh, manhood from one generation to another. And I imagine I'm not the only one. Let me remind you one more time. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Let's go to Robert in Indiana. Robert, you're live on the air. Go ahead with your question. Your comment?
00:27:29
S4: Yes, sir. Hi. All right, gentlemen, I want to say hello to you gentlemen. Y'all. I really admire the circle y'all have. I'm listening to the conversation. You sound like some, uh, men that I would love to hang out with sometime. How about that?
00:27:48
S1: How about that, Robert? Well, tell us your comment, though. Just jump right into your comment, Robert. Well.
00:27:52
S4: I want to say being a man, being a man start is something that starts. It's on the inside. First and foremost. You got to have something you got. It's got to be ticking on the inside because with so many different exterior, uh, things going on and people trying to judge man or woman based on outer stuff, I believe you're going to have to, we're going to have to definitely grab a hold to what a man is on the inside first, and let that be something that works its way continually onto the outside.
00:28:32
S1: Because I like it. Robert. I like, for example.
00:28:35
S4: Truth. You know, it's like a man has a word. And the only way I mean, you could be with a definition like that, really, you could be a seven year old man, a young man with because he has a word, he tells the truth. If he did it, he'd take it, he say it, and he take the consequences. Vice versa. You could be a 59, 60 year old male that his word flips and flops all over the place. So you're a male, but you know, it's it's not a man.
00:29:11
S1: All right. Good good good good. Robert. Robert, hold on a second. Hold on a second. I like what you're saying, but I want to give them a chance to respond to it. If you'll hold on the line. I actually want to give you a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus. fulfilled and fearless. Brandon Roberts telling us right here, it's like, I mean, it kind of fits into your theme of lionhearted this, this lionhearted focus as well. So, I mean, what are some of the characteristics that that internal manhood that Robert's talking about? What are some of the characteristics of a lion hearted man inside that might respond somewhat to Robert's comments?
00:29:44
S3: Absolutely. I love what Robert's saying because when you start on the inside, everything changes. And that's why the word of God is so important for every single guy. Because the Word of God gives you principles. Like what he's articulating is a principle in the book of James. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. That's what part of being a godly man is. But the Bible also gives us narrative pictures that stories of people and men who were godly men. I think of David when Robert's talking. David was a man of God, and part of what made him a man of God is he was a he. He wrote this in the Psalms. A man keeps an oath. He keeps his promise. He keeps his word even though it hurts. So there are pictures of like, if you look at David in the Bible, you watch that play out in his life where he was a guy who was loyal. He was a guy who was true to his word. He was a guy who wouldn't allow pressures from the outside, outside voices. He had guys, you know, when Saul's coming at him to kill him, guys being like, hey, you know, he had an opportunity to kill King Saul. And this guy's like, hey, this is your moment. And David knew who he was, and he knew what it looked like to be a godly man. And he said, that's not who I am. I know that's that that Saul's God's man, and I'm not going against what the Lord has already spoken. But if guys don't have the word of God in them and they don't have a picture of what that looks like, they are really floating on their own. And those external voices that Robert's talking about will move them every time. That's what makes them so wishy washy is because they have no grounding in their heart. This is what a godly man looks like. And so every external voice that pushes on them pushes them in directions that are oftentimes hazardous to them or the people around them. So good on Robert for articulating that.
00:31:27
S1: Yeah. Love it, love it. Um, David, the book is dedicated to your dad and your grandpa. I never, never met your dad, but, um, I'm kind of interested because in a sense, when you write on manhood, you know, something has been passed on about manhood from your father. And in your case, also from your from your grandfather. What did you see in them that kind of stuck in you and maybe in Brandon that then you want to share with others?
00:31:51
S2: Well, as you know, our dad is a, um, a very bold individual, um, a very grounded, um, leader and is just an example that we have, um, been so privileged to, you know, walk with and then learn from for our entire lives. And, you know, our grandpas were very different. So our dad's dad was a farmer on the plains of Colorado and so had a dairy farm, but also farmed, you know, corn and alfalfa and onions. And so just a hard working guy who was a very moral person, but not a Christian. So they were my dad would say they were backslidden Presbyterians. So they had a they actually had a pew with their name on it at the church, but he did not know the gospel. And so when my dad became a Christian, one of the conversations that they would have on a on a fairly regular basis, you know, as my dad grew in his faith was he would try to broach the subject of a walk with Christ, and my grandpa would have none of it. Um, on the other side of the family, our, our mom's dad, he was a pastor, uh, grew up as, uh, was adopted, grew up in kind of a difficult situation. Um, in his early years sent to boarding school. A lot of alienation, a lot of, um, a lot of family crisis and problems. Even in the family he was adopted to. And so he. But he found the Lord. The Lord found him and he was called into ministry. And so he's pastoring all of these churches in the northern United States. And my grandpa on the other side is a is a farmer. And so two different things, both of them very hard workers. But my grandpa or grandpa on our mom's side, very tenderhearted, very like just a sweet disposition, very passionate, but not a domineering personality, a very, very gentle spirit. And loved God's Word and loved God's people like loved people even when they were so unkind to him. Like he just was this sort of, uh, desire to lay down his life was embodied in him. And then my grandpa on the other side, you know, my dad's dad, he came to Christ in his 70s in this radical transformation had always been generous but generous without the foundation of why am I generous? Or what is. What is life all about? And his life was so radically changed. This guy who fought in World War Two, part of the Greatest Generation, he immediately becomes a Christian, goes and leads his buddy to the Lord who was who he fought with in the war. And so, and just becomes like a guy who's now he's in his 70s and he's in the end of his life and just faithfully loves his family, serves his family, continues to do what he had done, but now with eternity in mind. And so, I mean, for us, uh, so different. All three of them in many ways are so different. And yet we got, we pulled different aspects from each one of them. And all of them spoke into our lives. All of them cared about us. All of them loved us. Obviously, our dad is still here. Our grandpas are with the Lord, but they just all modeled in different ways the title of this book. And so it felt so right because everybody you may not have a godly dad, but everybody has men, if you will, especially ground yourself in a local church, you will find men who you can get alongside, who you can follow in their wake and learn from, and watch the way they exemplify Christ and watch the way they live out the truth of the gospel, and it will change you. But do it for the long haul. Don't do it for like a coffee, you know, one Tuesday, you know, every six months, like actually get in, get in one another's world, find some, find some guys who you can do life with, who are ahead of you and love God like, like you want to love God. And so really for us, it in dedicating it to them, it was hopefully a push for guys who are reading it to go, okay, I'm going to get some men in my life like that and it will make a big difference.
00:36:07
S1: Yeah, it's, you know, as I grew up in a non-Christian home, so when I hear stuff like that, I love that and I'm encouraged by it. And I want to be that kind of dad. I think others do as well. We're going to have one more segment. We're going to get right to your calls. Our number is (877) 548-3675. I've got a few calls lined up, but you still can jump on the line. We'd love to maybe hear what your thoughts are about how to be maybe a godly dad for Father's Day. (877) 548-3675 Lionheart is the book. We'll be back with your calls in just a moment. All right, we're back. Last segment, which means we're going to go to your calls. And so our phone number is 877548367575. We're here with David and Brandon Lindell again, it's (877) 548-3675. We're talking about their new book, Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus. Fulfilled and Fearless. It's Father's Day weekend, so it's a great time to talk about, well, you know, here's the thing. If we're living in a crisis of manhood. And I think that ties to a crisis of fatherhood. It's a great time, any time as well. So we're going to go to Florida and I'm hoping I'm saying your name right, sister. Is it Hannelore? Um, if either way, jump right in with your question or your comment.
00:37:25
S5: It's. That's good. Well pronounced. Thank you. I'm a grandmother and I'm speaking with I'm having a Bible study with my 17 year old grandson who came to the Lord about a year ago. And, um, unfortunately, my son, their father has not, um, continued his leadership in the faith with his, with his sons. So here I am a grandmother and I'm using an app which the through the word app and, uh, can you hear me?
00:37:56
S1: Yeah, I hear you. Great. Yes, ma'am.
00:37:58
S5: Okay. And I'm using the app, uh, through the word but and it's great, but I, I'm having the biggest trouble with him making allotting the time so that we can actually get together. We do it over the phone with the computer and the phone, and it's very difficult. And I'm just I got the program on and I thought, maybe there's something else that I can do to make it more appetizing is probably not the right word. But you know, something that he says he really wants to do it, but then he finds other things that keep a 17 year old teenager busy.
00:38:37
S1: Well, it sounds like it sounds like a situation that all of us have dealt with. And I'm so thankful that you're calling Brandon. I mean, first of all, it sounds like her 17 year old grandson is open once this. But maybe. Well, he's 17. Help us. You were 17 once. Help us unpack this. How can grandmother help a grandson on this journey? Brandon?
00:38:56
S3: Yeah. First of all, I just want to commend her for discipling him. And don't be intimidated by that. He is 17. He's got all kinds of things going on. And every 17 year old is is busy, so don't be deterred. Your your passion for that. I promise you he is impacted by influence by will. Remember that it reminds me of of Timothy in the Bible. Uh, his grandma impacted him and her passion. So I just want to really encourage her, first of all, because she's probably doing things right now that are influencing him in ways that she doesn't even see the fruit of. It's like depositing and you're planting seeds in the ground. She's going to see those. So see those grow in a big way. Uh, I think always, and when you're trying to influence a 17 year old, uh, getting things in his life where he can maybe involve his friends, uh, getting in way in ways in his life where you're giving him a gift of like a book he can read. I know 17 year olds you like think, well, he won't read, but you never know when he's going to pick something up. You just kind of keep depositing, keep putting those in, keep asking for those moments. Keep looking for those opportunities. Keep looking for ways to be creative. I wish there was like a silver bullet I could give her, where it's like, if you just do this, he'll always be engaged and always want to do that. But it's not like that. It's kind of pivoting to the moment and saying, okay, I'm listening to what he's interested in, what impacts him. You know, you might buy him like a little like if he's into drums, like a little thing that has to do with drums. It's not, it doesn't have to be expensive, but you're just saying, I'm engaging your world. I'm hearing you and I'm caring about you. Those at times give you the most, uh, and the greatest platform to speak into his life. So way, way to go. Uh, I promise you, God's using you in a big way.
00:40:45
S1: I'm just super encouraged that that a grandmother is actually. And he's he's open. It sounds like he's just not being consistent, which which I just think that might be 17 year old boys, uh, by, you know, I have never raised any 17 year old boys, but I've seen them and that day just hit. So if you'll hold on, though, here's something you can also do. Give him a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living focused, fulfilled, and fearless. I was going to give you a copy. If you'll hold on, one of our producer will come on and give you a copy of that book. But thank you for such a great call as well. All right, let's go to Anthony down in Alabama. Anthony, you're live on the air. Jump right in with your question or comment.
00:41:22
S6: Hey, how are you? Um, so I have a young adult kids and I'm married. I'm 45 years old, and in my late 30s, I was diagnosed with a neurological issue, had to have brain surgery and haven't been able to work since. And I'm and I struggle with the definition of manhood because of that. And is there anything biblically that I can look at to, uh, for encouragement there?
00:41:50
S1: Anthony, what a great question, man. I thank you for your transparency here as well. So, I mean, David, we know that, you know, part of what we see in the Bible is that that, you know, men are called to, to work, but simultaneously we have situations like this. And, you know, Anthony's made the image of God. He's he's a man. Uh, how might he navigate the uniqueness of his situation?
00:42:13
S2: Sure. And first and foremost, let me say I'm so sorry for what you've walked through. It sounds incredibly challenging. And, um, in that challenge, I think I would just point you to something that is happening in your life, whether you recognize it or not. That work is not just where you get your paycheck. Work is pressing through. It's. So yes, we get often we make our living through our work, but there are there's a lot of aspects of work that aren't tied to a paycheck. And so you. In this season, you may not be able to work a traditional job because of the challenges health wise you've faced. But you are overcoming adversity and you're staying faithful in the season. And so every day you wake up, every day. You, you know, talk to the Lord. You get in his word every day. You speak into the lives of your kids. You are fulfilling that primary calling of that God gave you in life. So yes, God created work. Work is very noble. And, um, for, for much for much of our adult lives, most men will and should hold a job and provide for their family. And yet in this season, I just want to encourage you, it's not that you are not fulfilling the mandate for manhood. It's you're still fulfilling that very faithfully. From what I hear, you are being consistent. You're overcoming adversity, and you are trusting in the Lord. And when you do that every single day, that's incredibly powerful. It's also a ton of work. Um, it's, it's real work. And so I would just encourage you in that do not give up. That's the big word for you. Don't give up. Uh, God is obviously helping you. Going before you don't get discouraged. The enemy would love to tell you you know what your work was, your identity in terms of your whatever your traditional job was. No, no, your identity as as a son of the living God, find it in that and root it in that and keep pressing on. Brother.
00:44:23
S1: Yeah. I would say, you know, having a disability does not preclude, uh, living as a biblical man. It's, it's an opportunity for you to, to, to, to, to show the love of God to other people to, to be a prayer warrior to, you know, and even with your, you mentioned you have children. So all that's a place where you can speak into those situations. So thank you for your call, Anthony. Matter of fact, if you hold on to. We do want to give you a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focused, fulfilled, and Fearless by our two authors today, David and Brandon. It's, uh, you know, it's Father's Day weekend. So for a lot of people, a lot of men, um, we, they're maybe thinking, you know, what do I need to think about to be a grow as a father. Now, you know, my all my daughters are young adult women now. And so my role has changed. But my, my, my my connection to them has not. So what? Let's start with you, Brandon. What's one thing every man should do this Father's Day weekend?
00:45:14
S3: Well, I would definitely say they should get their family into church, get their family in the presence of the Lord. You know, the average, I think family goes 1.9 times per month to church and just saying, you know what, what a statement to your family. Say, hey, as a as a dad, you know, one of the Father's Day gifts I want is to just get in the presence of the Lord to get in church. I'm telling you, those kind of things seem small, but it's in the small things that you make the greatest impact at times. So that's what I would say. The number one thing guys should do this weekend is.
00:45:46
S1: What would you add, David?
00:45:47
S2: Well, um, I would just say that there are things that maybe you've wanted to start in your life and it seems like the best time to start anything is later and maybe this Father's Day, you're going to say now, and my encouragement would be to you out who? Wherever, whatever stage of life, whatever season you're in is start the thing that you know that God has spoken to your heart. Maybe you're not consistently. We've talked a lot about reading the Bible. Maybe that's just not been a thing, or maybe it fell off the radar for you. Start. Start this Father's day. Mark it down. Um, what a great and a significant day to take a step like that. Maybe it's, maybe it's the whole idea of community. Get in godly community. But take a step this Father's Day. That would be my encouragement to every man listening.
00:46:35
S1: So great. Thank you for both David and Brandon for being here today. Again, the book is Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless. Thanks for listening to Ed Stetzer live. Thanks to my team producer engineer, call screener. We're thankful for you to hear today's program again, go to Ed Stetzer live.com and remember, Ed Stetzer live is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Living Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
S1: Well, this is live. And of course I'm Ed Stetzer. This in every Saturday we have conversations here live coast to coast, 250 stations and outlets across the country. And lots, lots of you listen to this podcast later on. I'm happy to do that. Go to Ed stetzer.com. You can find the links to all the Moody radio podcasts there as well. So thank you for listening on Moody Radio, our partners and affiliates as well. As I said, my name is Ed Stetzer. I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. You may have read the news that we now have campuses in Phoenix and Los Angeles, or excited what the Lord is doing here. Uh, for our conversation here today, I get to be your radio host this. And every Saturday I try to bring interesting guests to talk about, I hope, helpful and interesting topics. And I think that's what we're going to have today as well. If you haven't been paying attention, there's a bit of a crisis. Maybe that's not strong enough a word. There's a crisis of manhood in our country, particularly with young men, there's a high level of uncertainty about what it means to be a man, how to live as a man. And I want you to know that the answers to this are not generally going well. Um, I think there's some resurgence of interest in Christianity. I mean, we can see that statistically. I wrote about it in USA today. Some young men are turning to faith in Jesus Christ and thank God for that. We want more of that, not less of that. But I do think when you look at the bigger picture, probably more young men are being influenced by people like Andrew Tate than they are by their local church and being discipled by an older man in their local church. So it's a crisis of young men. Now I have all daughters. Uh, matter of fact, I since I've been with you last time on the radio show, I've been in Europe. If you listen to the last few weeks I've been in the UK, I was teaching at Oxford and then went up to Scotland and did some shows there, uh, last week with an Oxford professor in the Old Testament. Um, if you're, if you're enjoying the podcast, the Stetzer Church leaders podcast, I have an entry, right Wright interview that just dropped and Alister McGrath interviews some fun things there. But while I was there, I brought along a. My daughter and I, you know, I teach for two weeks there at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford. And then we went on, as they say, holiday up to a couple of places in England. And while there, uh, my daughter, my, my daughter was uh, we had a little surprise proposal and her boyfriend is now her fiance. And so I have only daughters. So, you know, I'm just learned, I don't know if you know this, but you actually have to pay for those weddings. You probably do that. But anyway, I got three of them. But, um, but, you know, I didn't really know there was this crisis of young men, partly because I was raising daughters. And, and I will tell you, that's a lot of work. It's not easy being a young woman these days. But then, uh, you know, my daughters would share with me and then, you know, meeting their friends. I mean, there there's a crisis of young men in our country. Many of them have become. The language I use when I'm speaking now is they've become unmoored from the culture. They've become unmoored from their future. Like a boat moored to the shore. They become unmoored from their hopes and dreams that maybe their parents or dads had, and now they're not quite sure what the future holds. Some of them many of them are being influenced by people like Andrew Tate or Nick Fuentes or even Joe Rogan. I don't put them in the same category. Jordan Peterson I don't put them in the same category as some of the worst and some like Andrew Tate. But but I don't I want them to be discipled by, by, by their churches. I want I want young men to be challenged by the truth claims of the gospel. I want young men to live as godly young men. So there's a lot of people talking about that, and I'm glad that they are. And I have a couple of two guests today who are going to help us to think about these things. But I wanted to frame a little bit about about kind of the crisis before we get there. So David Lindell is pastor at James River church, serves as a pastor of James River church. He's passionate about developing leaders, championing local church, teaching the Bible. He and his wife, Becky, have four children. He has a th.m from Dallas Theological Seminary. Brandon Lindell serves as pastor at James River church. Also, he loves inspiring people to pursue God's presence, grow in their effectiveness, and build the church through preaching, worship, song writing, and the arts. He and his wife, Beth, have four children now. What's also fun about them? I've preached at their church several times and I've known them I when they were younger and now sort of watch, you know, kind of the journey that they've been on both in the church and personally. It's been, it's been kind of neat to see. So let me just say welcome, David and Brandon, thanks for joining us on here on Ed Stetzer live.
00:04:24
S2: We are thrilled. Ed, we love you so much. You've been such a help. Uh, honestly, a godsend at moments wisdom and, uh, just a great soundboard, but also your Bible teaching is exceptional. And so we're grateful to be on the show. This is awesome.
00:04:39
S3: Yeah, absolutely. This is a huge privilege and we're excited to talk about, I thought you set it up so well, what we're discussing today.
00:04:47
S1: Yeah. I mean, it's a mess out there, right? It's a mess. And, and a lot of people, you know that when the people have unmoored themselves, you know, I was thinking about my dad, you know. My dad died a little over a year ago. His birthday was just this week, and I thought about his childhood. He grew up in New York City. He got a job as a Union Iron Lawyer. There was kind of a clear path to the middle class for him. You know, grew up in Flatbush and then Queens and then eventually in Levittown. And young men knew what to do next. They knew what it meant to be a young man. It wasn't always, you know, my dad wasn't a Christian. It wasn't always godly. But there was a sense that we knew what manhood looked like. And then that all collapsed and and now it's being rebuilt in ways that that are not great. And yet sometimes we find people who are calling for a, a good, strong biblical approach to manhood. So we're going to go on this conversation today. Let me let me just invite you to call in if you're so inclined. Our numbers, by the way, we're going to talk about maybe you got questions about what it means to be a man. Maybe you have thoughts about this. 87754836758775483675. And and so I just want to start and talk a little bit about the book and, and of course, you wrote this book and the title sort of gives away so much of the theme. It's called Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living focused, fulfilled and Fearless, which I would say a lot of young men are not particularly focused and not fulfilled, and they're not fearless. Or maybe they've become fearless in ways that are not particularly helpful. But the theme is a big part of the theme is, is knowing what it means to be a man. So David, let's let's start with you and help me kind of understand, like, where did this passion come from in you? Because obviously you feel men lack direction, but where did you like say, man, I got a burden for this and I need to write this. Start with David.
00:06:33
S2: Yeah. We just we got into some conversations and honestly, they lasted a number of years around what you see in the Proverbs, because the Proverbs is a father son dynamic, by and large, and there is all kinds of wisdom. Obviously, all of these clues to how to live life well. And yet I kept coming back. And in our conversations, Brandon and I kept centering on Proverbs 423, which says, above all else, guard your heart, because everything you do flows from it. And it occurred to us as pastors, particularly interactions with men, caused us to become more and more aware that a lot of guys don't have any clue how to apply that verse or what their heart even is. Uh, I think if you surveyed a lot of Christians and you ask them to define the heart, you would get probably as many answers as you asked people. Um, there's just not a lot of clarity around, okay, what is the heart and why does it even matter? And so the center, the epicenter of who you are as a man, um, what informs that? And what, what is that? What is it that God would do with your heart if you yielded it to him? And how does that affect the trajectory of your life, and how does that affect your purpose? All of those questions are bound up, we think, in that verse. And so really, the project emanated out of the understanding of the proverbs in that relational dynamic that is playing out in the wisdom of a father to a son, but then also just the reality of the, uh, the rudderless or as you say, the unmoored nature of men and sadly, men in the church. Like there's just, we, we interact with a lot of guys. And I think all of them are trying for the most part, I think all of these guys are trying. Um, and I think some of them are trying really hard. It's just that they, for whatever reason, it could be the home they grew up in, it could be the cultural voices that they've allowed to have a lot of, um, say and influence in their life. They just find themselves struggling to get a stick on. What am I supposed to do with my life? What is my life supposed to be about? And I feel like it's kind of a little bit of a ping pong, uh, situation where they hear a voice and they they like certain things in that voice. You name some of the voices that are prominent. And so they hear something from a Joe Rogan or they hear something, um, from even a Nick Fuentes and they go, oh, I kind of resonate with that. And then they, they go, oh, well, you know, then they hear something from somebody else. And so it's kind of just they're bouncing back and forth without a clear target. And so anybody who throws up a target and it looks appealing, and it speaks to some of the desires that God wired them with, they gravitate toward that. And unfortunately, the devil loves to co-opt those desires. He loves to distort. He loves to imitate what God created us to, um, be fulfilled by and then take us off course with that. And, you know, I think that that story is as old as humanity. And yet in this moment, it's particularly apt for young men. And so that's the heart of the book is like, okay, as you said, most men, most young men are not defined by the subtitle, which is focus fulfilled and fearless. So how do we get there in a biblical and godly manner? Because there is a path for that. It's just knowing what that path is. And so that is the that is the crux of the book. That's what this whole thing is about.
00:10:05
S1: Yeah. And the subtitle is, it's not just like sometimes the subtitle is just some catchy way. I mean, it is sort of the structure of the book focused, fulfilled, and fearless. Those three themes are obviously central to what you're talking about. Brandon. Why is that? Why those three things?
00:10:21
S3: Well, I think, you know, even as David was talking, I was thinking, man, a lot of men live frustrated, unfocused and fearful because they have like you're saying, they're unmoored, they're untethered, they have other struggles that they're facing, challenges. They're facing things that are causing frustrations. But because they're untethered, they don't have any vision from the Word of God. They're untethered to a godly community like you're talking about when it comes to where they're getting their inputs, they're not getting inputs from godly older men. They don't even have those in their lives. And it's oftentimes because they disconnect, because those relationships, whenever they do get challenged, become uncomfortable. And, and so they disconnect from them. And all of that combined causes them to kind of live in this spiral of that unfocused, uh, just frustration and, and they don't even realize that, hey, these are things that you can't just go to a different location. You can't just get a different girlfriend. You can't just divorce your wife and find a new wife. You can't just find a new church. And that will fix everything because the core issue is the heart. And until you get those things in the heart fixed, uh, you're going to continually find yourself in similar problems. And so that's why when we're talking about the heart, people have to get a vision for, okay, how am I going to become grounded inside? How am I going? I need to have a vision for what God has called me to be, who God has called me to be. And that comes from the Word of God, and that comes from people in your life who love the Lord, who are willing to speak to you and talk to you even when it's uncomfortable, and you being willing to take that in. So and tell people understand the problem, like David is saying of the heart, and they stop looking at exterior things and blaming exterior things. That's really the first starting point to getting that grounding that helps you live focused, live fulfilled, live fearless. You have to get the foundational and identify that foundational problem. This is a heart issue. Now that I have that understanding, how do I fix the heart? Obviously a relationship with Jesus. We all would say that's a starting point and you definitely need that. But then getting in the Word of God and saying, you know, okay, what does God say about my identity? What does God say about who I am? What does God say about how I should deal with problems in my life and then helping getting people around your life who can help you identify those things in your life that don't look like a godly man? Because if you don't, if you don't have somebody speaking to your life, you'll never have perspective. And so when we look at that subtitle, it just helps people because I just really believe, and David and I both have seen this in the guys that we pastor. And, you know, every once in a while as a believer, you walk through moments where you're like, man, I, I am not focused like I should be. I'm not, I'm not living like I should be. And you have to go back to the heart. So when you see those things in your own life, or you see those things in the guys around you, we wanted to write something that helps those guys be like, okay, here's how you stay on track. Here's how you get grounded, here's why this is happening, and identify those things to help lift them out of that and really make them a stronger man. You know, the Bible says the wicked flee, though no one pursues, the righteous are as bold as a lion. And when you get the heart right, you find yourself in that fearless zone of saying, okay, you know what? I'm not going to run from this challenge. I'm going to I'm going to go at this challenge, but I'm going to do it in a godly way because I have a godly grounding, I have a godly vision, and I've gotten the inside healthy and I've gotten the inside right.
00:14:09
S1: So good, so good. I can't go wrong with little Proverbs 281 the wicked flee, the one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. The book is lion hearted. A man's guide to living, a focus fulfilled. Excuse me to living focus fulfilled and fearless. We're going to take your calls. Let's give a shout at eight, 775483675. We're going to give away three copies of the book, two brilliant callers with comments or questions. (877) 548-3675. We'll continue our conversation about manhood and your calls in just a moment. Ed Stetzer live. The book we're talking about is Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless by David and Brandon Lindell. Um, and, um, and, and I always pronounce your name two different ways, the Lindell's and Lindell. So please forgive me. David and Brandon. It's just a habit I can't seem to get out of for ten years. 15 years I've done that. But, um, so when we talk about this topic, you know, part of my concern is I've been around enough, you know, I'm in my late 50s, I'm in my late 50s, like, there's like a month left in the 50s. And, uh, on this journey, I've seen some people call, uh, ministries books say things like, you know, you got to be tough, you got to be a man. And, you know, and even to the point where it's like, you know, rebuking people who, you know, didn't, didn't, it didn't take a punch and, you know, whatever else it may be. And and to the point it's actually I mean, I've seen it just to be honest, cause some destruction in the lives of a lot of men who, who maybe couldn't live up to this idealized, hyper masculine, uh, not not like this is what Jesus is like, but like, this is what you must be like. And I was, I was pleasantly pleased when I looked through the book that I mean, you talk about things like, like, uh, you talk about, you know, passive men. I want to talk about that. But you talk about, you know, fatherhood and you talk about spiritual leadership. And I, uh, you know, and, and again, you draw from the proverbs there as well. So, so David, I mean, you're not as old as me. Um, and I remember when you're much younger, but like, how, how do you kind of navigate without calling people to this kind of, I don't know if it's a fake. It's, it's, it's, it's this something that I don't know that it aligns with the scripture, but it certainly aligns with the cultural moment. You got to learn to punch people and you got to punch hard. And that's what a Christian man looks like. So how did you navigate some of those questions?
00:16:43
S2: Well, I think that, um, voices that maybe articulate those things seem to isolate, um, certain images of Jesus or isolate parts of Scripture. And obviously that's not new. Um, anybody who's pushing a particular vision of something, um, to the exclusion of other things is going to isolate parts of scripture to make their point. But, you know, so Jesus is only flipping tables. Um, or Jesus is, you know, he's only, um, he's only talking in certain ways. And so when we isolate those parts of the eye, you know, the, the person of Jesus, or when we isolate those parts of Scripture, well, then certainly it makes it very easy, uh, to characterize godly masculinity or what Christian manhood is in light of, um, over like an Uber macho, uh, testosterone overdrive, like in your face. Eight on the Enneagram. Uh, take no prisoners. And here's the reality. We need guys who will speak the truth. So, I mean, the fact of the matter is we're in a, I believe, a cultural crisis where truth seems to matter less and less every day. And it's not really that it matters less. It's that we treat it like it matters less. And so Christians have to be people of the truth. And we all get the fact that if you're going to tell the truth, that's going to, as Brandon said earlier, that can create some uncomfortable conversations. And so there is a side of manhood and godly masculinity where you have to be willing to push into discomfort to do the hard things. Obviously, that's part of it. And yet if we skew that toward domineering, if we skew that toward, um, name calling every skew that toward, um, brute force. Well, then we're going to get off track. So it's, you know, the fact of the matter is there's a, a real, I don't know if balance is the word, but there's certainly, uh, it's not just one channel. And so I think that is in some ways the reason why guys have gravitated toward, um, some voices and culture that you named earlier. Um, but there is a, there's like a, this is what you have to do. And some of those voices are very like dominance forward. And if you're a, you know, if you're like a take charge guy, like that's your personality. Hey, great. Like steward that well for the glory of God, but not every personality is built the same. We all know this. It's just the issue is how do you live out within the the character traits? I mean, and I guess the personality traits and sort of the wiring that God created you with. How do you then then do what Jesus would do? How do you live a godly life? How do you you still have to lead your family. You still have to be an influence in the the darkness to point people to Jesus. And that's going to take guts. And so that's not off the table. It's just that the way that that manifests itself is not a one size fits all thing. And I think sometimes guys gravitate to these podcasters, influencers that are very, um, intense in their presentation and their, the way they characterize manhood because they're happy to hear somebody talk about that. But in real life, like if they were actually having a conversation and somebody was calling them out, they aren't going to do that. They're, they're going to shrink back from that. So it's fake. I mean, honestly, there's a certain group who listens to that who are eating it up like ice cream, and that's the way they live. But I think there's a lot of vicarious like machismo or whatever going on with people who are listening to this stuff going, man, I wish I was that there. Like I could, you know, there because they, they, they live afraid, they live unfocused, they live fearless, and they aren't willing to push into the hard conversations. So in answer to your question, I don't want to get too far off track, but I think there is a there's a gravitational pull to those voices because it's. We we do respect people who can stand up and be counted. We do respect that kind of intensity that says, oh, I'm going to step into the fray, but just make sure you're doing it over the right things, that you're not dying on every hill, that you're not dominating in your home, but you're laying down your life as a servant because it's way harder to lay down your life and serve than it is to yell directives and be the boss and the big guy and push people around. It's just harder to serve. So if you really want to be a man and do what Jesus did, come and lay down your life. Love people who don't like you. Uh. Love them to Jesus. Get tell them the truth and have a lot of grace in it. Like all of those things to me are so much harder to do in real life. And actually, when somebody confronts you, repent. How about that? Like that's harder to do than it is to walk around with your chest thrown out, uh, you know, telling everybody else what to do. So yeah, be bold, be courageous, but also be a servant and love people. Well, uh, love them. Have the gospel on your lips, but also live it in your life. So I think that all of those things to me go together in that answer.
00:22:16
S1: Yeah, I love that they do go together for you. And that's one of the things that kind of is kind of woven throughout, uh, the Lion-hearted A Man's Guide to Focus fulfilled and fearless. Being focused, living focused. Excuse me. Uh, Brandon, I mean, one of the things that you talk about in the book is passivity and the Crisis of Passive men. And. And I think David even talked a little bit about, you know, sometimes, you know, passive men listening to podcasts, getting all riled up and then doing nothing is really the same thing of being passive. But why do you think men tend to drift into passivity? What, what, what gets us there?
00:22:51
S3: Yeah, I think I think that's a great question for a lot of guys. I believe they go there because they feel that even if they face the challenge or they've tried or they've they've attacked it from different angles and nothing seems to be moving. So the best way for them to navigate that frustration is just to escape. So they escape to the garage and work on a car, which there's nothing wrong with that. But if that becomes an escape from your family and escape from your marriage and escape from your own personal problems, then that's not what godly manhood looks like. That could be a hobby where they're always out with the guys and they're not actually taking care of their kids, or they're not actually working their job like they should. And so it, it all mixes together, just like David is saying, it's a both thing. It's not about being, uh, hyper masculine, but it also isn't about just, you know, being like, whatever, you know, and I'm going to take my foot off the gas. And I think a lot of guys, they find themselves navigating to one of those extremes. And the middle is so much more challenging to be like, okay, I actually don't know how to solve this problem. Like, I don't know what every answer is, but I do know what the word of God says, and it does say engage. So maybe it's a guy and they don't know how to be a good godly dad, and they actually don't think it's working very well. Some of the things that they're doing with their kids, yet they're instead of being like, oh man, I'm not, I'm, I'm just going to step away and quit trying. They engage and say, okay, I guess I need to pray and ask the Lord to help me and to make up for the places that I don't know and, and to do what I can't do. And I'm going to engage. And that can be in any place in their life where they feel like I don't have what it takes to actually succeed here, or to look like I know what I'm doing as a strong man. And so they have to say, okay, am I going to back off? AM I going to get distracted? And that once again, it's like, okay, they want to lead their, their home in a godly way. And there's some pushback from that with their, their spouse. And they, they're like, man, this is so difficult right now. How do I navigate this? And rather than saying, okay, I'm just, I just quit. I'm going to go where I can be successful. I'm going to go where people think I'm the boss and people think I'm the man. No, I'm going to engage and I'm going to continually find ways to do this well. And when a guy does that, uh, obviously that's a challenge. But the Lord can help that guy there if they just say, hey, I need your help, Lord.
00:25:43
S1: Let's take your calls. (877) 548-3675. We got five copies of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless to Give away love to hear your thoughts on manhood, how you navigate it, exhortations and more. Eight. 775483675. All right, we're back and you're on live. We're talking to about the book Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus Fulfilled and Fearless. Both David and Brandon are with us, the co authors, and we're going to take your calls and get into conversation. Maybe you got a question about, you know, how to raise a godly young man. Maybe you got a question about how to how to assert a place of manliness in your own life and or maybe a question about what it looks like to leadership or not to be passive or what boldness looks like in a Christlike way. Our number is 87754836758775483675. Of course, it's also Father's Day weekend, which is one of the reasons we had David and Brandon on. But another one of the reasons is like, I know their dad. And you know, when I would preach in there, they weren't the they weren't stepping into the lead roles that they're doing now, but I know their dad. And then to see the next generation in them and then to see them speak, you know, them having children, it's the kind of thing that for me that I think an example of something that we need to see more of celebrating, uh, manhood from one generation to another. And I imagine I'm not the only one. Let me remind you one more time. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Let's go to Robert in Indiana. Robert, you're live on the air. Go ahead with your question. Your comment?
00:27:29
S4: Yes, sir. Hi. All right, gentlemen, I want to say hello to you gentlemen. Y'all. I really admire the circle y'all have. I'm listening to the conversation. You sound like some, uh, men that I would love to hang out with sometime. How about that?
00:27:48
S1: How about that, Robert? Well, tell us your comment, though. Just jump right into your comment, Robert. Well.
00:27:52
S4: I want to say being a man, being a man start is something that starts. It's on the inside. First and foremost. You got to have something you got. It's got to be ticking on the inside because with so many different exterior, uh, things going on and people trying to judge man or woman based on outer stuff, I believe you're going to have to, we're going to have to definitely grab a hold to what a man is on the inside first, and let that be something that works its way continually onto the outside.
00:28:32
S1: Because I like it. Robert. I like, for example.
00:28:35
S4: Truth. You know, it's like a man has a word. And the only way I mean, you could be with a definition like that, really, you could be a seven year old man, a young man with because he has a word, he tells the truth. If he did it, he'd take it, he say it, and he take the consequences. Vice versa. You could be a 59, 60 year old male that his word flips and flops all over the place. So you're a male, but you know, it's it's not a man.
00:29:11
S1: All right. Good good good good. Robert. Robert, hold on a second. Hold on a second. I like what you're saying, but I want to give them a chance to respond to it. If you'll hold on the line. I actually want to give you a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus. fulfilled and fearless. Brandon Roberts telling us right here, it's like, I mean, it kind of fits into your theme of lionhearted this, this lionhearted focus as well. So, I mean, what are some of the characteristics that that internal manhood that Robert's talking about? What are some of the characteristics of a lion hearted man inside that might respond somewhat to Robert's comments?
00:29:44
S3: Absolutely. I love what Robert's saying because when you start on the inside, everything changes. And that's why the word of God is so important for every single guy. Because the Word of God gives you principles. Like what he's articulating is a principle in the book of James. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. That's what part of being a godly man is. But the Bible also gives us narrative pictures that stories of people and men who were godly men. I think of David when Robert's talking. David was a man of God, and part of what made him a man of God is he was a he. He wrote this in the Psalms. A man keeps an oath. He keeps his promise. He keeps his word even though it hurts. So there are pictures of like, if you look at David in the Bible, you watch that play out in his life where he was a guy who was loyal. He was a guy who was true to his word. He was a guy who wouldn't allow pressures from the outside, outside voices. He had guys, you know, when Saul's coming at him to kill him, guys being like, hey, you know, he had an opportunity to kill King Saul. And this guy's like, hey, this is your moment. And David knew who he was, and he knew what it looked like to be a godly man. And he said, that's not who I am. I know that's that that Saul's God's man, and I'm not going against what the Lord has already spoken. But if guys don't have the word of God in them and they don't have a picture of what that looks like, they are really floating on their own. And those external voices that Robert's talking about will move them every time. That's what makes them so wishy washy is because they have no grounding in their heart. This is what a godly man looks like. And so every external voice that pushes on them pushes them in directions that are oftentimes hazardous to them or the people around them. So good on Robert for articulating that.
00:31:27
S1: Yeah. Love it, love it. Um, David, the book is dedicated to your dad and your grandpa. I never, never met your dad, but, um, I'm kind of interested because in a sense, when you write on manhood, you know, something has been passed on about manhood from your father. And in your case, also from your from your grandfather. What did you see in them that kind of stuck in you and maybe in Brandon that then you want to share with others?
00:31:51
S2: Well, as you know, our dad is a, um, a very bold individual, um, a very grounded, um, leader and is just an example that we have, um, been so privileged to, you know, walk with and then learn from for our entire lives. And, you know, our grandpas were very different. So our dad's dad was a farmer on the plains of Colorado and so had a dairy farm, but also farmed, you know, corn and alfalfa and onions. And so just a hard working guy who was a very moral person, but not a Christian. So they were my dad would say they were backslidden Presbyterians. So they had a they actually had a pew with their name on it at the church, but he did not know the gospel. And so when my dad became a Christian, one of the conversations that they would have on a on a fairly regular basis, you know, as my dad grew in his faith was he would try to broach the subject of a walk with Christ, and my grandpa would have none of it. Um, on the other side of the family, our, our mom's dad, he was a pastor, uh, grew up as, uh, was adopted, grew up in kind of a difficult situation. Um, in his early years sent to boarding school. A lot of alienation, a lot of, um, a lot of family crisis and problems. Even in the family he was adopted to. And so he. But he found the Lord. The Lord found him and he was called into ministry. And so he's pastoring all of these churches in the northern United States. And my grandpa on the other side is a is a farmer. And so two different things, both of them very hard workers. But my grandpa or grandpa on our mom's side, very tenderhearted, very like just a sweet disposition, very passionate, but not a domineering personality, a very, very gentle spirit. And loved God's Word and loved God's people like loved people even when they were so unkind to him. Like he just was this sort of, uh, desire to lay down his life was embodied in him. And then my grandpa on the other side, you know, my dad's dad, he came to Christ in his 70s in this radical transformation had always been generous but generous without the foundation of why am I generous? Or what is. What is life all about? And his life was so radically changed. This guy who fought in World War Two, part of the Greatest Generation, he immediately becomes a Christian, goes and leads his buddy to the Lord who was who he fought with in the war. And so, and just becomes like a guy who's now he's in his 70s and he's in the end of his life and just faithfully loves his family, serves his family, continues to do what he had done, but now with eternity in mind. And so, I mean, for us, uh, so different. All three of them in many ways are so different. And yet we got, we pulled different aspects from each one of them. And all of them spoke into our lives. All of them cared about us. All of them loved us. Obviously, our dad is still here. Our grandpas are with the Lord, but they just all modeled in different ways the title of this book. And so it felt so right because everybody you may not have a godly dad, but everybody has men, if you will, especially ground yourself in a local church, you will find men who you can get alongside, who you can follow in their wake and learn from, and watch the way they exemplify Christ and watch the way they live out the truth of the gospel, and it will change you. But do it for the long haul. Don't do it for like a coffee, you know, one Tuesday, you know, every six months, like actually get in, get in one another's world, find some, find some guys who you can do life with, who are ahead of you and love God like, like you want to love God. And so really for us, it in dedicating it to them, it was hopefully a push for guys who are reading it to go, okay, I'm going to get some men in my life like that and it will make a big difference.
00:36:07
S1: Yeah, it's, you know, as I grew up in a non-Christian home, so when I hear stuff like that, I love that and I'm encouraged by it. And I want to be that kind of dad. I think others do as well. We're going to have one more segment. We're going to get right to your calls. Our number is (877) 548-3675. I've got a few calls lined up, but you still can jump on the line. We'd love to maybe hear what your thoughts are about how to be maybe a godly dad for Father's Day. (877) 548-3675 Lionheart is the book. We'll be back with your calls in just a moment. All right, we're back. Last segment, which means we're going to go to your calls. And so our phone number is 877548367575. We're here with David and Brandon Lindell again, it's (877) 548-3675. We're talking about their new book, Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus. Fulfilled and Fearless. It's Father's Day weekend, so it's a great time to talk about, well, you know, here's the thing. If we're living in a crisis of manhood. And I think that ties to a crisis of fatherhood. It's a great time, any time as well. So we're going to go to Florida and I'm hoping I'm saying your name right, sister. Is it Hannelore? Um, if either way, jump right in with your question or your comment.
00:37:25
S5: It's. That's good. Well pronounced. Thank you. I'm a grandmother and I'm speaking with I'm having a Bible study with my 17 year old grandson who came to the Lord about a year ago. And, um, unfortunately, my son, their father has not, um, continued his leadership in the faith with his, with his sons. So here I am a grandmother and I'm using an app which the through the word app and, uh, can you hear me?
00:37:56
S1: Yeah, I hear you. Great. Yes, ma'am.
00:37:58
S5: Okay. And I'm using the app, uh, through the word but and it's great, but I, I'm having the biggest trouble with him making allotting the time so that we can actually get together. We do it over the phone with the computer and the phone, and it's very difficult. And I'm just I got the program on and I thought, maybe there's something else that I can do to make it more appetizing is probably not the right word. But you know, something that he says he really wants to do it, but then he finds other things that keep a 17 year old teenager busy.
00:38:37
S1: Well, it sounds like it sounds like a situation that all of us have dealt with. And I'm so thankful that you're calling Brandon. I mean, first of all, it sounds like her 17 year old grandson is open once this. But maybe. Well, he's 17. Help us. You were 17 once. Help us unpack this. How can grandmother help a grandson on this journey? Brandon?
00:38:56
S3: Yeah. First of all, I just want to commend her for discipling him. And don't be intimidated by that. He is 17. He's got all kinds of things going on. And every 17 year old is is busy, so don't be deterred. Your your passion for that. I promise you he is impacted by influence by will. Remember that it reminds me of of Timothy in the Bible. Uh, his grandma impacted him and her passion. So I just want to really encourage her, first of all, because she's probably doing things right now that are influencing him in ways that she doesn't even see the fruit of. It's like depositing and you're planting seeds in the ground. She's going to see those. So see those grow in a big way. Uh, I think always, and when you're trying to influence a 17 year old, uh, getting things in his life where he can maybe involve his friends, uh, getting in way in ways in his life where you're giving him a gift of like a book he can read. I know 17 year olds you like think, well, he won't read, but you never know when he's going to pick something up. You just kind of keep depositing, keep putting those in, keep asking for those moments. Keep looking for those opportunities. Keep looking for ways to be creative. I wish there was like a silver bullet I could give her, where it's like, if you just do this, he'll always be engaged and always want to do that. But it's not like that. It's kind of pivoting to the moment and saying, okay, I'm listening to what he's interested in, what impacts him. You know, you might buy him like a little like if he's into drums, like a little thing that has to do with drums. It's not, it doesn't have to be expensive, but you're just saying, I'm engaging your world. I'm hearing you and I'm caring about you. Those at times give you the most, uh, and the greatest platform to speak into his life. So way, way to go. Uh, I promise you, God's using you in a big way.
00:40:45
S1: I'm just super encouraged that that a grandmother is actually. And he's he's open. It sounds like he's just not being consistent, which which I just think that might be 17 year old boys, uh, by, you know, I have never raised any 17 year old boys, but I've seen them and that day just hit. So if you'll hold on, though, here's something you can also do. Give him a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living focused, fulfilled, and fearless. I was going to give you a copy. If you'll hold on, one of our producer will come on and give you a copy of that book. But thank you for such a great call as well. All right, let's go to Anthony down in Alabama. Anthony, you're live on the air. Jump right in with your question or comment.
00:41:22
S6: Hey, how are you? Um, so I have a young adult kids and I'm married. I'm 45 years old, and in my late 30s, I was diagnosed with a neurological issue, had to have brain surgery and haven't been able to work since. And I'm and I struggle with the definition of manhood because of that. And is there anything biblically that I can look at to, uh, for encouragement there?
00:41:50
S1: Anthony, what a great question, man. I thank you for your transparency here as well. So, I mean, David, we know that, you know, part of what we see in the Bible is that that, you know, men are called to, to work, but simultaneously we have situations like this. And, you know, Anthony's made the image of God. He's he's a man. Uh, how might he navigate the uniqueness of his situation?
00:42:13
S2: Sure. And first and foremost, let me say I'm so sorry for what you've walked through. It sounds incredibly challenging. And, um, in that challenge, I think I would just point you to something that is happening in your life, whether you recognize it or not. That work is not just where you get your paycheck. Work is pressing through. It's. So yes, we get often we make our living through our work, but there are there's a lot of aspects of work that aren't tied to a paycheck. And so you. In this season, you may not be able to work a traditional job because of the challenges health wise you've faced. But you are overcoming adversity and you're staying faithful in the season. And so every day you wake up, every day. You, you know, talk to the Lord. You get in his word every day. You speak into the lives of your kids. You are fulfilling that primary calling of that God gave you in life. So yes, God created work. Work is very noble. And, um, for, for much for much of our adult lives, most men will and should hold a job and provide for their family. And yet in this season, I just want to encourage you, it's not that you are not fulfilling the mandate for manhood. It's you're still fulfilling that very faithfully. From what I hear, you are being consistent. You're overcoming adversity, and you are trusting in the Lord. And when you do that every single day, that's incredibly powerful. It's also a ton of work. Um, it's, it's real work. And so I would just encourage you in that do not give up. That's the big word for you. Don't give up. Uh, God is obviously helping you. Going before you don't get discouraged. The enemy would love to tell you you know what your work was, your identity in terms of your whatever your traditional job was. No, no, your identity as as a son of the living God, find it in that and root it in that and keep pressing on. Brother.
00:44:23
S1: Yeah. I would say, you know, having a disability does not preclude, uh, living as a biblical man. It's, it's an opportunity for you to, to, to, to, to show the love of God to other people to, to be a prayer warrior to, you know, and even with your, you mentioned you have children. So all that's a place where you can speak into those situations. So thank you for your call, Anthony. Matter of fact, if you hold on to. We do want to give you a copy of Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focused, fulfilled, and Fearless by our two authors today, David and Brandon. It's, uh, you know, it's Father's Day weekend. So for a lot of people, a lot of men, um, we, they're maybe thinking, you know, what do I need to think about to be a grow as a father. Now, you know, my all my daughters are young adult women now. And so my role has changed. But my, my, my my connection to them has not. So what? Let's start with you, Brandon. What's one thing every man should do this Father's Day weekend?
00:45:14
S3: Well, I would definitely say they should get their family into church, get their family in the presence of the Lord. You know, the average, I think family goes 1.9 times per month to church and just saying, you know what, what a statement to your family. Say, hey, as a as a dad, you know, one of the Father's Day gifts I want is to just get in the presence of the Lord to get in church. I'm telling you, those kind of things seem small, but it's in the small things that you make the greatest impact at times. So that's what I would say. The number one thing guys should do this weekend is.
00:45:46
S1: What would you add, David?
00:45:47
S2: Well, um, I would just say that there are things that maybe you've wanted to start in your life and it seems like the best time to start anything is later and maybe this Father's Day, you're going to say now, and my encouragement would be to you out who? Wherever, whatever stage of life, whatever season you're in is start the thing that you know that God has spoken to your heart. Maybe you're not consistently. We've talked a lot about reading the Bible. Maybe that's just not been a thing, or maybe it fell off the radar for you. Start. Start this Father's day. Mark it down. Um, what a great and a significant day to take a step like that. Maybe it's, maybe it's the whole idea of community. Get in godly community. But take a step this Father's Day. That would be my encouragement to every man listening.
00:46:35
S1: So great. Thank you for both David and Brandon for being here today. Again, the book is Lionhearted A Man's Guide to Living Focus, Fulfilled and Fearless. Thanks for listening to Ed Stetzer live. Thanks to my team producer engineer, call screener. We're thankful for you to hear today's program again, go to Ed Stetzer live.com and remember, Ed Stetzer live is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Living Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
