WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Eagle Right Speaks Podcast, where we discuss climate change from a right of center, free enterprise, innovation perspective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Every week, we feature guests who have insights into climate solutions that make sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Bobbingless of RepublicE and.org.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're Conservatives who care about climate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We see opportunities ahead in solving climate change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For America and the whole world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now here's the host of the show, Chelsea Henderson.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Hello listeners, welcome back.
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[SPEAKER_04]: As our fearless leader Bob just noted, I'm Chelsea Henderson, the host of this show, which makes me your guide for a journey in the conversations centered around climate policy, advocacy and leadership.
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[SPEAKER_04]: With an emphasis on the community, we foster the ego right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: If you hear me chuckling, it's because my crazy kittens are running around my office right now, hopefully not making so much noise, but they bring great joy into my day.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I digress for today's episode, we invited an expert from within our own Mason 4C family to speak about his area of expertise.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Doran Tucker completed his PhD at George Mason University in the Department of Communication in 2025.
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[SPEAKER_04]: His research interests focus on the nexus of identity, policy, and the environment with a particular emphasis on effective climate communication and appolation and military contexts.
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[SPEAKER_04]: As an avid hunter and crafter of medieval armor, which we did not get to talk about, Doran routinely intermishes as hobbies and academic inquiry.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I have to give a huge shout out to my colleague, Angela Lark, also working on her doctorate, by the way, for recommending Doran for the show.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He is thoughtful, funny, and so smart as you are about to hear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: His research focuses, as I mentioned, on this strategic connection, communication connection between climate change and national security.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, along those lines, he's also exploring trust and trustworthiness and risk communication.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the role that conservative voices can play in advancing climate policy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He is so thoughtful and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You are listening to the EcoRiteSpeaks podcast brought to you by my fun and talented colleagues at RepublicanE&.org.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Wendy, outreach director, and I'm wondering, do you have a guest idea for the show?
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[SPEAKER_03]: If so, let us know.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We want to feature the voices you want to hear.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In the meantime, enjoy Chelsea's conversation with today's guests.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back listeners.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so excited to be here with a colleague from Mason 4C.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for having me.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I'm so excited to get to chat a little bit with you today.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This so, you know, if you're listening ed, you might blush a little bit, but it does seem that it took a couple people to replace
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[SPEAKER_05]: I've taught a couple of thumb up, and I don't know that replaces the rape words.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Fill in, fill it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Fill it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I did.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I had the chance to teach the climate change communication campaigns class that had designed that I took a handful of years ago.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so it's really exciting to be able to teach that class, but by own spin on it, bring in my own twists and thinkings while still paying homage to a really great course.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So it's exciting to be a part of foresee and the part of the George Mason community study and climate change communication.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So you and I were chatting a little bit before the show started and you know this idea of how we communicate climate change is so important.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And you know there's not going to be a one size fits all some arguments and any and this you know is across the board regardless of whatever type of change you're trying to evoke.
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[SPEAKER_04]: incentives and strategies and arguments and so forth, but tell me how the dots connected for you and your own research on how to communicate climate change risk.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so, and this is going to start at a slightly divergent place.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I was an undergrad at Penn State studying international politics and geography, and I was actually learning about remote sensing, and I had a whole class that was all about how GPS is paid for by the United States Air Force, and it's basically this gift that they gave everyone in the United States.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was profoundly impacted by that and thinking through the ways in which the throughout U.S. history investments in military infrastructure have had downstream impacts for the benefit of the society broadly.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You know, the interstate system was developed in no small part as a mechanism for getting people out of cities if there were a nuclear attack on the country.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And was it that I some power wasn't he sort of the overseer he was president at that time and obviously big general during World War II and strategic military thinker.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and then we get we get GPS through the the 70s and 80s and you know, these are satellites that are owned and operated by the US Air Force and they are so critical to what we do, you know, on this last time you went on a road trip and didn't plug your destination into GPS somehow, right, and so so much of our economy so much of our like daily lives is just based on this infrastructure that is that is fundamentally tied to military.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was sitting there as a bright eye, was she tailed undergrad, thinking about, okay, well, what would that look like for climate change?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Are there investments that the military might make in the climate space that could have these downstream impacts on society just broadly?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's sort of launched me into this nexus of military, military infrastructure and national security and climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And it just so happened that I had the benefit of finding this class that was climate changing national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It was the first time it was ever offered at Penn State.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I was an undergrad.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It was a grad class.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I ended up finning it so that I could take the class anyway.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I got to work with a guy named Dave Titley who was a rare admiral retired in the US Navy and he'd stood up task force climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: He ran it in 2007, 2008 when the Navy really started digging in on what did climate change mean for national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that's sort of I see that as this formative experience.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So I spent the next couple of years sort of the end of my my undergraduate and through my masters.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Studying the ways in which climate change impacts national security and then we can really think about it a couple of different ways, but you can think threat multiplying right it makes bad things worse You know, so there people often talk about serious this example, you know, there were series of droughts between 2006 and 2000
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[SPEAKER_05]: 11 in Syria that caused or contributed to internal displacement and then you've got a bunch of people who used to be farmers who are now in cities looking for jobs and you know pretty soon we have the civil war against special Assad and like that isn't necessarily like you can't draw a straight line between climate change and the series of war but it's a compounding factor.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It makes already bad situations a little bit worse.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It turns up the heat so it's
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[SPEAKER_05]: Um, but we can also think about how climate changes directly impacting US national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So if you think about increased rates of humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations, um, if we think about black flag days, where our troops are now training because of severe weather, um, if we think about.
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[SPEAKER_05]: situation where even infrastructure is getting flooded, we have sunny day flooding out of a variety of different military installations in the U.S. and globally.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Those are having direct impacts on our military readiness.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so I spent a lot of my time with Dave thinking about those.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And as I sort of finished with that, it was like, OK, and I've finished my masters in 2020.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So it was the end of the Trump administration.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I wrote this master's paper, those sort of charting, what is America doing about climate change versus what are we saying?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And comparing it to our five-i-o-liance allies and the UK Australia and New Zealand and Canada.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And what I found was that they were all saying, a whole lot more than we were about climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: There was more sort of the ciferous work and I do things about climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's a national security threat.
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[SPEAKER_05]: But the United States was actually still doing quite a lot.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We were just not saying about it, not using those politicized CC words.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I sort of want to, okay, is this an opportunity to have different conversations?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that throughout my PhD, I sort of focused on my grandfather, who's a very right-of-center person, who has historically not believed in climate change, and he became my focal.
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[SPEAKER_05]: My focal individual is like, can I have a different conversation with my grandfather about climate change?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And if I come and say, listen, I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not being this environmental person,
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[SPEAKER_05]: This is the U.S. Navy who you're spent your entire career designing little radio components for saying the climate changes threat and is that a way to have a different conversation that makes it more meaningful for him.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's what I decided to do my PhD in and that's why I came to George Mason.
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[SPEAKER_05]: These people leave the guys to work with if you want to study climate change communication.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that's how I ended up here and I came in day one saying I'm going to study climate change as a national security threat and it's what I did my dissertation on.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I stuck to my guns.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So we have had Sherry Goodman on the show before who is a cleaner of the threat multiplier term and I think you know it's such a great way to think about the impacts of climate change and it's a little bit like how.
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[SPEAKER_04]: we can't say hurricane Katrina was caused by climate change, but we can say climate change contributed to conditions that made hurricane Katrina worse.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of that is similar with especially the conflicts abroad.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But some of the stuff you were saying, I know, because I worked for Senator John Warner, late Senator John Warner from Virginia, not to be confused with the current Senator Mark Warner from Virginia, not related, but they were very good friends, actually.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the Norfolk Air Force
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not, I'm now I'm gonna blank on, is it the largest U.S. space or is it the largest naval base maybe in the U.S. and you know the corners don't have a lot of if we were to have to deploy quickly.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So it's not really a place that we can afford to let sink due to rising sea levels and you know, I think back in those days when I was working for Senator Warner
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, he had been chairman of the Armed Services Committee.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Had a military had been Secretary of Navy early in his public service career.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so went to Italy and Oh gosh, Denny McGin and my favorite one.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He was so mild-mannered Galaway, General Galaway.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm pulling these names out of a hat for sure, but came in and talked to him.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That, and said, you know,
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[SPEAKER_04]: We are the top, you know, they're retired at that point, but retired highest ranking flag got retired flag officers in the U.S. across all the branches of the military and we agree.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We might not agree on what is causing climate change, but we do not dispute it as happening and we do not dispute that it has significant impacts on our readiness.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that meant a lot to Senator Warner and compelled him to want to write a bill and to act by partisanly.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so I do think that these conversations are really important.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And one thing that I believe it was General Gallo way that he said, you know, at the time, this was 2007, 2008, time period.
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[SPEAKER_04]: One of the big arguments we heard on Capitol Hill all the time was, we don't know 100 percent.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We don't know for sure.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And
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[SPEAKER_04]: What Galois said was, if we waited to get 100% certainty on the battlefield, we've lost the battle.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like we have to make decisions with the information that we have, or we will be worse off.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I think about that a lot.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I was actually just picturing that quote.
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[SPEAKER_05]: They actually, so the Center for Naval Analysis and A came out with this sort of seminal report in 2007.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And they called that out in a callout quote.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was picturing that as you were talking, because I agree.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's one of those super,
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[SPEAKER_05]: relevant sort of understandings that the military brings is like we have to act in instances of uncertainty because if we don't, we're already behind, you know, if we waited for 100 percent certain and that there are risks that are worth
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[SPEAKER_05]: trying to gain a little bit of first move for advantage on, you know, like we can't wait for a complete surgery.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We have a strong enough estimate, but this is bad, and it's worth taking sensible precautions.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And to link this back to your what you were saying in the opening about remote sensing and how the US government was basically able to commercialize
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[SPEAKER_04]: this technology to a point where now we just all have it on our phones and you're right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: My son who's 25 today actually day of recording, he told me recently that he's decided he wants to go analog and so he's trying to get places without using his GPS and
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[SPEAKER_04]: Bless him, he's really bad at following GPS directions, so I'm not sure how much better he's going to be with a paper map, but TBD.
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[SPEAKER_04]: The military, the DOD can have that role for climate related technologies, too.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I just remember being, I was at Stanford actually, and there was a, at the,
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[SPEAKER_04]: Hoover Institute and they were having this presentation and they had this it was a solar array that folded up into a blanket that was like the size of a piece of paper and they were basically like we
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[SPEAKER_04]: We can't, one of the things that puts the U.S. troops into harm's ways, especially in the countries and areas like the Middle East, is the transport, the fuel transports, right?
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[SPEAKER_04]: You have these trucks that are transporting fuel, they're large, you can't really hide them.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's a desert, there's no cover, and so their targets for attack, and so they were trying to think of ways to use yet less fossil fuels.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so, but they also can't be carrying around these big solar arrays, but, you know, it was a blanket, basically, you know, like be unfolded and it captures the rays of the sun and we can plug out what we need to plug into it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And then when we're done, we fold it back up and again, it's like the size of, you know, eight and a half by 11.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought, wow, that's, that's the kind of stuff that DOD has the power to kind of make commonplace for us.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But it takes an investment from the federal
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I think the lesson learned from the push towards say biofuels during the Obama administration is that we can't have that be framed as we need to do this to be environmental, you know, the military's objective isn't to be in an environmental organization, it's to fight in win wars and I think.
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[SPEAKER_05]: But for me as a communicator, I always want to keep that in mind.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I want to make sure that when I talk about climate change as a national security threat, I am maintaining that recognition of what is the primary goal of the U.S. military.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's to protect the United States and the U.S. Constitution and country.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so where there are synergies, exactly as you're describing, right?
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[SPEAKER_05]: We suffered so many casualties and are all kind of Afghanistan because we were driving giant tankers oil to forward operating bases.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so if we can create a mechanism for providing energy at forward operating bases, that is, got us shorter.
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[SPEAKER_05]: logistic strain that's less vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: That is where we have a flighting advantage, but also an environmental advantage.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think in the United States right now, recognizing that the United States civilian grid infrastructure, which is what most military bases are attached to is highly vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, let's think about how we bring small scale nuclear reactors with our solar, we create robustness and resilience in the military grid, but we can do so in a way that also makes them more sustainable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so there are opportunities there.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I think being able to communicate that, you know, when I go to my grandpa and I'm talking about this, it's like, okay, well, let's think about this.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We know that the U.S. grid system is vulnerable, you know,
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[SPEAKER_05]: What if we go ahead and put some, you know, wind turbines or solar panels or small granular reactors on days so that we can reduce that vulnerability?
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[SPEAKER_04]: But what are the other risks that I think that is a national security risk as well that is really linked to kind of a hot topic today is immigration and the potential for climate immigration.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, we obviously have a, you know, debates continue to rage in this country on how we handle immigration and if we have countries that are suffering.
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[SPEAKER_04]: big climatic events, and if those people, especially as it would have to come from the central and South America, are then trying to come into the United States, we exacerbate a problem that we already don't have a solution to and create a little more instability.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Or you look at what happened in Nepal last month, and I don't know what the ramifications might be for
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[SPEAKER_04]: your family has lived in a place for multiple generations and you have a way of life that doesn't seem as quite of a pick-up and go culture as we might have here.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But these are real considerations that are beyond, as you said, beyond the environment, their people focus, but they are security and risk focused as well.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And financial, I mean, I, I remember just thinking, you know, my master's is an international affairs.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I had lots of former ambassadors and stuff.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And one of the points they drilled in was that kinetic, you know, military responses are almost always the most expensive.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so if we can spend on a diplomatic response beforehand, we're going to spend less money.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so,
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[SPEAKER_05]: You know, yes, it costs money to fix some of these problems upfront, but I think of it like going to Sam's clever Costco.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You're going to walk out with a big bill, but if you compare that to going through the grocery store for five times, you're actually paying less.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so there's a fiscal conservancy to frontloading that cost and getting more, more bang for your buck.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's a really interesting place.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, yes,
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[SPEAKER_05]: If we can address more climate change threats, if we can mitigate climate change and adapt to climate change in places that help avoid migration, that saves us a lot of headache down the road and probably will save us a lot of money down the road.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So have you have you convinced your grandpa?
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[SPEAKER_05]: So, so I did my dissertation.
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[SPEAKER_05]: What I found was that overall statistically, there wasn't a lot of persuasive impact of frame and climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So I did interviews and I did a sort of survey experiment.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And one of the things I wanted to see in the survey experiment was comparing that sort of threat multiplier versus direct impacts.
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[SPEAKER_05]: not a whole lot of difference between the two, and neither was necessarily persuasive in the context of a survey.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like people's opinions are fairly seven stones, so it's harder to change their minds.
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[SPEAKER_05]: What I did find, and sort of sort of to the conversation with my grandfather, because I did, I wrote my dissertation to him, if anyone goes out, it's open access, you can go and find it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: My introduction is
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[SPEAKER_05]: to my grandfather and discusses what it's like to sit at the Thanksgiving dinner table and have my grandparents ask me how my studies are going and knowing that we're about to have a conversation where we disagree on the sort of fundamental topic.
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[SPEAKER_05]: But I also wanted to answer their question and I wanted to work on persuading them and so I gave my grandfather a hardbound copy of the dissertation when I completed it and he read it and he wrote a whole set of responses that he put in a little binder that I keep on my bookshelf now, which was incredibly heartfelt and I deeply appreciate him taking the time to do that.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I did, I can instant them that climate change is a problem.
21:39.731 --> 21:42.033
[SPEAKER_05]: He went to a different place than I have gone.
21:42.473 --> 21:43.974
[SPEAKER_05]: He is a very religious man.
21:44.014 --> 21:47.798
[SPEAKER_05]: And so he has decided that it is evidence of the end of days.
21:49.159 --> 21:51.000
[SPEAKER_05]: Which I'll take, right?
21:51.121 --> 21:53.382
[SPEAKER_05]: I convinced him, his risk perceptions went up.
21:53.583 --> 21:56.986
[SPEAKER_05]: And that was sort of the goal in my communication with increased risk perception.
21:57.286 --> 22:00.469
[SPEAKER_05]: His attribution, he's attributing it to something that are not.
22:01.309 --> 22:11.317
[SPEAKER_05]: But we can now have conversations and we have, it's like, okay, if you think it's the end of days and recognizing that he thinks that the end of days could hit and there could be the rapture anytime now.
22:11.778 --> 22:18.643
[SPEAKER_05]: But within that, maybe we should do something about it while we can because it's actually a big moral work could be a hundred years.
22:18.723 --> 22:23.187
[SPEAKER_05]: And if we're going to have to live with this for a hundred years, maybe we should build some solar panels.
22:24.068 --> 22:24.668
[SPEAKER_05]: And he agrees.
22:26.300 --> 22:33.107
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that you had this very thoughtful and gracious interaction with your grandfather.
22:33.507 --> 22:46.460
[SPEAKER_04]: A few weeks ago, we had the host of, we've got to talk on our show and their one self-profess liberal and one self-professed conservative and on their show, they tackle big issues, but they they listen to each other, right?
22:46.520 --> 22:49.563
[SPEAKER_04]: They're polite, they're, doesn't mean that they
22:51.021 --> 22:59.095
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not trying to change each other's mind, so that's a little bit of a difference with your grandfather, but I think the more that we can have these conversations in a way that is is.
23:00.564 --> 23:06.987
[SPEAKER_04]: graceful and not, you know, sort of, I don't know where everybody so angry these days.
23:07.047 --> 23:22.595
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, if he landed on a rapture reason to think that we need to address climate change, hey, I also had a boss on the Environment and Public Works Committee who was very pro-environmental action because he was like, we have to protect God's creation.
23:23.116 --> 23:24.716
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was, you know, where he was
23:28.580 --> 23:35.787
[SPEAKER_04]: I, you know, he didn't want to someday be questioned that he hadn't done enough to protect this earth that was created for us to live on.
23:35.827 --> 23:45.636
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think however you get to the argument, you know, this kind of goes back to what we're saying at the beginning, different people are going to resonate with different, different messages and
23:46.366 --> 23:47.627
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm curious.
23:47.727 --> 23:56.432
[SPEAKER_04]: So you said that your survey that, you know, people are very intractable right now and you didn't necessarily see a big shift.
23:56.752 --> 24:02.615
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you think that's because right now it's risk and not reality.
24:02.655 --> 24:05.257
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we had something happen,
24:07.142 --> 24:23.072
[SPEAKER_04]: where that risk became man, that risk manifested, that is it more like we have to have it kind of slap us in the face before something changes and how we perceive.
24:24.905 --> 24:27.527
[SPEAKER_05]: I think a lot of it is identity type now, right?
24:27.688 --> 24:33.973
[SPEAKER_05]: I think we've got in so stuck in this idea that Democrats are for climate change and Republicans are against it.
24:34.093 --> 24:43.002
[SPEAKER_05]: I had in the interviews, I interviewed this gentleman who is very, very right of center, very, very climate skeptical.
24:44.783 --> 24:52.505
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, he, he, I asked him what he thought of climate change is a national security issue and his, his initial response was, um, perfane.
24:53.345 --> 24:58.246
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, and I was like, okay, but I kept talking with him.
24:58.306 --> 25:01.147
[SPEAKER_05]: And we, we talked for two and a half hours in that interview.
25:01.487 --> 25:07.548
[SPEAKER_05]: And by the end, he was like, yeah, if you could just call it like extreme weather, warfighting, I'd be all for it.
25:07.728 --> 25:10.909
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, the military should be looking at what are the effects on basics.
25:10.989 --> 25:11.329
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think,
25:11.909 --> 25:36.867
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's a place where, you know, and it was an interesting place to come to, but I ended up sort of finishing the dissertation on There's a continued need for almost like a don't ask don't tell in a climate security space right now because there is broad support Or taking common sense policies around climate change Our invasives with renewable energies 83% support on my survey
25:38.129 --> 25:41.220
[SPEAKER_05]: deploying an all-electric combat vehicle by 2050, 61% support.
25:44.497 --> 25:55.559
[SPEAKER_05]: fixing sort of like sustainability issues and energy issues on basis to help reduce mold, but also making the more energy efficient, 86% support.
25:55.599 --> 26:04.461
[SPEAKER_05]: There's really, really broad support for sort of these comments and policies, especially if you've silenced the climate part of them.
26:04.581 --> 26:07.622
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think a lot of the challenge right now is that
26:08.762 --> 26:20.544
[SPEAKER_05]: it's become so tied to our identities and it triggers that identity instead of having a real conversation because I think part of what I was able to do with my grandfather was to make it not a threat.
26:20.985 --> 26:35.988
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think one of the challenges right now and climate change is always depicted as super partisan and there are issues with that because far more Republicans and people right of center believe in climate change than we ever give credit for like there's this pluralistic
26:38.201 --> 26:47.323
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think there's also value in recognizing the ways in which certain Democrats have been happy to use it as a political country.
26:47.343 --> 26:59.227
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and so how can we have actual conversations about climate change that allow us to build broad coalitions instead of focusing on a single set of policy responses.
27:00.947 --> 27:07.110
[SPEAKER_05]: I think, you know, of studying politics, I had that, you know, Bismarck politics is the art of the possible quote.
27:07.151 --> 27:11.533
[SPEAKER_05]: I think there are things that are possible in the climate change space in the US.
27:11.573 --> 27:17.916
[SPEAKER_05]: We just need to be intelligent about how we try and build those coalitions to make things possible.
27:17.936 --> 27:24.000
[SPEAKER_05]: And some of that is going to, is going to require negotiate or not what are these policy sets that we feel like we have to support.
27:24.980 --> 27:44.253
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think climate change is pressing enough that that a slow as smooth smooth as fast approach is going to be a whole lot more beneficial than pushing for like this perfect end state like incremental steps will be faster certainly than doing nothing which is unfortunately where we've been in many respects.
27:44.553 --> 27:45.714
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
27:46.395 --> 28:05.357
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think we have a lot to communicate with you and I and our respective jobs and I just am forever grateful for the foresee team and your partners over at Yale and all the great research that gets done and I think, you know,
28:06.017 --> 28:32.593
[SPEAKER_04]: We can move the needle, you have to be thoughtful about it, and that's what I like about being part of this community is just there's a recognition that there's not a one message fits all and that we do need to move away from words like urgency in the scare tactics that honestly just make people want to give up right like why would you want to put yourself out to change for example how you live your life.
28:33.384 --> 28:35.547
[SPEAKER_04]: if you think the world's going to end in seven years.
28:36.768 --> 28:36.909
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
28:36.949 --> 28:40.012
[SPEAKER_04]: My does all enjoy those cheeseburgers and drive the gaskos alert.
28:40.152 --> 28:44.638
[SPEAKER_05]: And well, and I think that's another place where the security perspective comes in, right?
28:44.678 --> 28:47.802
[SPEAKER_05]: Because it brings a really clear ride understanding that.
28:49.082 --> 29:00.013
[SPEAKER_05]: some extent these are math problems and they're measured in lives and dollars and so saying the world's gonna end in seven years doesn't help because it paints this picture that the world's stops and we've gone past those over and over again.
29:00.554 --> 29:02.135
[SPEAKER_05]: What we need to communicate is that the
29:06.980 --> 29:13.522
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the sooner we do things, the sooner we save lives of the dollars, and that becomes the incentive.
29:13.602 --> 29:26.487
[SPEAKER_05]: And then it is a math problem, and we can figure out an equilibrium, you know, if rapid transition is going to cost lives and dollars, then we can just do the math about where is the equilibrium point that is the best point for transition.
29:26.962 --> 29:30.966
[SPEAKER_04]: where we can let the AI overlords do the math problems.
29:31.267 --> 29:33.609
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, then that may be where we're headed here.
29:33.669 --> 29:35.792
[SPEAKER_05]: That's technological solutions.
29:35.832 --> 29:36.913
[SPEAKER_05]: We love to land best.
29:36.953 --> 29:39.256
[SPEAKER_05]: But maybe AI will just solve all of it for us.
29:39.396 --> 29:45.262
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was an earlier episode this season, where we are tapping into the AI investment to
29:46.347 --> 29:49.029
[SPEAKER_04]: for more clean energy, obviously.
29:49.049 --> 29:56.656
[SPEAKER_04]: But we could talk about a thousand offshoots from this topic, and I would love to have you back to continue the conversation.
29:56.676 --> 29:58.978
[SPEAKER_04]: But for today, I really appreciate your time.
29:59.018 --> 30:03.882
[SPEAKER_04]: And thanks for sharing your research and your insights and congrats on your grandpa.
30:04.563 --> 30:05.364
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much.
30:07.706 --> 30:08.967
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't go anywhere listeners.
30:09.387 --> 30:11.089
[SPEAKER_02]: My favorite part of this show is coming up.
30:11.845 --> 30:23.028
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Angela Clark, the engagement director of a public-y-in.org and I love listening to Chelsea and our producer, Price, Atkinson, wrap up each episode with their thoughts, jokes, minty banter.
30:23.748 --> 30:25.789
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, a preview on next week's show.
30:26.409 --> 30:27.529
[SPEAKER_02]: So stay tuned.
30:28.050 --> 30:30.450
[SPEAKER_02]: That segment is coming up next.
30:31.831 --> 30:32.751
[SPEAKER_04]: So Price.
30:33.251 --> 30:38.732
[SPEAKER_04]: I know today's episode was about our new friend, Doran Tucker, who is, by the way,
30:41.789 --> 30:51.496
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even get to talk to him about his hobbies outside of work, which it just sounds like he's a medieval, cool medieval guy.
30:51.536 --> 30:52.856
[SPEAKER_04]: I bet he likes the red and fair.
30:54.077 --> 30:59.981
[SPEAKER_04]: But before we get to Doran, I have to tell you about the weirdest dream I had about Ed Maybach.
31:00.692 --> 31:03.833
[SPEAKER_04]: that he was at a conference in Angela and I were there.
31:04.013 --> 31:08.495
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were like, we're going to talk to him about some ideas that we have for Repeliki and that org.
31:09.395 --> 31:16.157
[SPEAKER_04]: And he interpreted what we were saying to me that we needed more work to do.
31:16.378 --> 31:19.379
[SPEAKER_04]: So he assigned us both janitorial roles.
31:20.259 --> 31:25.581
[SPEAKER_04]: And so then we were like in this hallway that it was like the school, right, George Mason Youth is a university.
31:25.621 --> 31:28.102
[SPEAKER_04]: And we had like the janitor uniform
31:29.658 --> 31:32.359
[SPEAKER_04]: Angela's pushing a broom and we were like, why did we say anything?
31:32.379 --> 31:33.079
[SPEAKER_04]: That sucks.
31:33.759 --> 31:35.319
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know why I had that.
31:35.719 --> 31:38.380
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're listening, why were you so mean to me in your dreams?
31:39.740 --> 31:53.603
[SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, Doran, great guy and just really pleased to get to spend some time with him and get to know him and his important work connecting national security and climate risk and climate
31:56.953 --> 32:13.466
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Center for 4C, turning out outstanding academic individuals like Doran and doing amazing work on climate change and kind of a different slice of the spear, if you will, national security.
32:13.586 --> 32:19.171
[SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, there's always obviously different angles to certainly different issues.
32:19.251 --> 32:22.173
[SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, he's, I think he's got certainly a different one.
32:22.193 --> 32:22.693
[SPEAKER_06]: So it was great to
32:25.424 --> 32:27.105
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, some family background and things like that.
32:27.165 --> 32:30.526
[SPEAKER_04]: So you know, I'm a sucker for some family tie in.
32:30.626 --> 32:39.091
[SPEAKER_04]: So that I was just pleased to hear how he was able to use his research to as an opening to connect with his grandfather on the topic.
32:39.351 --> 32:54.038
[SPEAKER_04]: And so yeah, I couldn't not thank Angela for she initially had a conversation with Doran when he first came to Mason for see maybe not when he first came on, but you know, they're both.
32:55.724 --> 33:02.090
[SPEAKER_04]: doing, well, he's postdoc and I think Angela's pre-doc, but now I'm going to publish, I might have that wrong.
33:02.791 --> 33:05.633
[SPEAKER_04]: In pursuit of her PhD, I believe he already has his.
33:06.374 --> 33:15.223
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, connecting over their research and she was on the reach out and I was like, I think he'd be a great guest on the show and he was so thank you Angela.
33:16.324 --> 33:17.385
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, definitely.
33:17.425 --> 33:17.725
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
33:18.729 --> 33:23.831
[SPEAKER_06]: Definitely a great opportunity to have him on and introduce him to our listeners and vice versa.
33:23.851 --> 33:26.512
[SPEAKER_06]: So let us speak in our listeners.
33:26.612 --> 33:33.795
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me make the call or make the ask right now if you are listening right now and that's in your time number one, we appreciate it.
33:33.835 --> 33:38.857
[SPEAKER_06]: Number two, we would love to have you subscribe to the ego right speaks.
33:38.957 --> 33:44.740
[SPEAKER_06]: Just hit the subscribe button, whether you're a podcast, Spotify doesn't matter wherever you get your podcast so you can have.
33:45.873 --> 33:50.575
[SPEAKER_06]: Every Tuesdays episodes new episodes comes out on Tuesdays have it delivered right to you.
33:50.815 --> 33:51.656
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, Jules.
33:51.676 --> 33:53.037
[SPEAKER_06]: So please hit that button.
33:53.417 --> 33:54.557
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please do.
33:54.917 --> 33:59.740
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, you're going to hear from me once a week on Friday.
33:59.840 --> 34:01.961
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all you're ever going to hear from me.
34:02.081 --> 34:05.403
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to hear from Angela once or twice a month.
34:05.503 --> 34:09.745
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's, you know, as we like to say, we do not spam people.
34:09.885 --> 34:10.105
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
34:11.523 --> 34:13.165
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's informative and fun.
34:13.505 --> 34:18.089
[SPEAKER_04]: You get to find out a little bit about what's going on in my life and a lot of bit of what's going on in the eco right.
34:18.309 --> 34:23.113
[SPEAKER_06]: So there you go, we can review is award winning outstanding stuff.
34:23.153 --> 34:26.056
[SPEAKER_06]: It is read by many and including thousands.
34:26.276 --> 34:28.318
[SPEAKER_06]: So you want to check out.
34:29.515 --> 34:35.657
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea's Weekend Review every single Friday, sign up, stand with us for public end.org forage last join.
34:35.677 --> 34:38.757
[SPEAKER_06]: What we do always shout out how you can join us.
34:38.797 --> 34:39.998
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's shout out some new members.
34:40.018 --> 34:52.861
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea, let's talk about Jim B. in Oklahoma, Dolores, Kay and Arizona, Tyler H and North Carolina, Joan H and Massachusetts, and Marlene C in Pennsylvania for deciding to stand with us since we came to you last time.
34:52.941 --> 34:57.142
[SPEAKER_06]: So thank you again as we shout out, handful of new members every single week.
34:57.862 --> 35:06.345
[SPEAKER_06]: appreciate them for hitting that join button and rub up Republican.org forward slash join that takes mere seconds.
35:06.605 --> 35:08.626
[SPEAKER_06]: So we appreciate them.
35:09.026 --> 35:11.907
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea, what do we have ahead next week?
35:11.927 --> 35:18.770
[SPEAKER_04]: So next week, we're going to do a blast from the past and have our friend Mary and I'm in Kuso.
35:19.519 --> 35:25.662
[SPEAKER_04]: fresh off of her two-year stint at the Miami Harold where she was on the editorial board.
35:26.303 --> 35:48.515
[SPEAKER_04]: On the sad side, the Miami Harold just let go a bunch of journalists says a lot of major media outlets have been doing and she got caught in that widespread layoff round, but on the plus side, she is now free to write for us again and help us get our message out.
35:49.395 --> 35:55.780
[SPEAKER_04]: She is going to come on and talk a little bit about her plans now that she is no longer with the herald.
35:55.820 --> 35:58.021
[SPEAKER_04]: And also a little bit about what she learned in those two years.
35:58.041 --> 36:03.885
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that was a really interesting and different job and she's learned a lot from she and I had a conversation.
36:03.965 --> 36:11.830
[SPEAKER_04]: So we will be sharing a conversation on Mary and I'm in Kuso, past and future with our listeners.
36:13.291 --> 36:14.032
[SPEAKER_06]: That is awesome.
36:14.332 --> 36:14.933
[SPEAKER_06]: That is awesome.
36:14.953 --> 36:15.533
[SPEAKER_06]: Can't wait to have.
36:16.457 --> 36:29.683
[SPEAKER_06]: Marianna back on hate hearing that news, but certainly we love Marianna as a somebody that was really a one of the first members of our community was really early on in the process and so we don't really love.
36:29.743 --> 36:40.668
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'd to hear from her next week, just I guess let's let's just go ahead and get out of here because we could out of here, listen, we have to have a talk about baseball.
36:41.448 --> 36:41.808
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
36:47.122 --> 36:48.924
[SPEAKER_06]: how the brave start play against the Phillies.
36:49.464 --> 36:54.830
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, so then why are they so stony face you just start your your nervous.
36:54.850 --> 37:05.420
[SPEAKER_06]: Not in nervous, you know, the red socks are in it against the hated Yankees, so that would be a fun first round, the wild card series and certainly the brave's in the Phillies.
37:05.540 --> 37:07.542
[SPEAKER_06]: I think I just don't have a lot of hope.
37:07.582 --> 37:10.045
[SPEAKER_06]: We're not built for the playoffs and
37:11.243 --> 37:17.589
[SPEAKER_06]: I just think we're going to be one arm short and the fillies have a bunch of heavy, heavy, duty overpowering arms.
37:17.669 --> 37:20.352
[SPEAKER_06]: And so I feel like I've seen this movie many times before.
37:20.412 --> 37:24.035
[SPEAKER_06]: So I'm excited, yes, in my optimistic know.
37:24.376 --> 37:25.056
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you're toxic.
37:25.216 --> 37:26.358
[SPEAKER_06]: You're protecting your heart.
37:26.778 --> 37:27.679
[SPEAKER_04]: You're protecting your heart.
37:27.699 --> 37:29.340
[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm not going to not cheer for my team.
37:29.380 --> 37:30.802
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to be there till the bitter end.
37:30.842 --> 37:31.783
[SPEAKER_06]: You can count on us.
37:32.454 --> 37:42.856
[SPEAKER_04]: So speaking of the bitter end, I was weeping, watching the Justin Vierlander videos of him in his last game throwing out that first pitch to his daughter.
37:42.976 --> 37:46.197
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when he was being pulled from the game, I'm gonna do you just thinking about it.
37:46.717 --> 37:48.518
[SPEAKER_04]: She came to the mound to like walk up.
37:48.978 --> 37:52.599
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, it's like Colin said, how could he not be romantic about baseball?
37:52.679 --> 37:58.940
[SPEAKER_04]: Like just so it's nice to see these touching moments to sports because so much of sports
38:02.741 --> 38:06.224
[SPEAKER_04]: interest and greed and it's so expensive.
38:06.304 --> 38:14.731
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I could go on and on, calling my son, did his thesis on declining attendance at MLB ball parks in the 21st century.
38:14.931 --> 38:17.874
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, one of the big reasons is cost now, right?
38:18.194 --> 38:20.656
[SPEAKER_04]: You used to be able to take your family afford to a ball game.
38:21.096 --> 38:27.482
[SPEAKER_04]: Now it's cheaper to have a year long MLB subscription than it is to take your family
38:31.494 --> 38:48.479
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's quite, quite expensive, but you know, I got to tell you, it was interesting dates me because seeing the Viralander pitches last game for the Tigers, what was the 20 or is it 21 years with Detroit?
38:49.740 --> 38:50.780
[SPEAKER_06]: I probably have that role.
38:51.140 --> 38:52.881
[SPEAKER_06]: He pitches his entire career in Detroit.
38:52.961 --> 38:53.781
[SPEAKER_06]: And he also
38:59.061 --> 39:15.917
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't see that often where, and I think this goes to the monetary part where the big money ball parks can our teams can buy these players at expensive contract prices and so they leave the smaller markets and so you're not seeing the same.
39:16.611 --> 39:28.745
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you're not seeing a player that stays with their team for their whole career or, you know, 20 years of their career and I think that is that has to impact the fan attachment to a team as well, right?
39:28.785 --> 39:36.113
[SPEAKER_04]: If you know that the guys that got either that world series are all going to be sold for parts the next season, it's like kind of hard to get engaged.
39:36.837 --> 39:51.102
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you start with the tigers in 2005 and then he was with the Astros for a couple of big runs and a cup of coffee with the nets in the back with the Astros and one season with the giants and that was back with the tigers.
39:51.162 --> 40:03.567
[SPEAKER_06]: I always think of him as a tiger because he pits there for when I guess 13 years and then kind of the Astros, but Yeah, it's a guy that really didn't move around the lot, but it was
40:05.080 --> 40:20.046
[SPEAKER_06]: It dated me because when I was working in the Naval Academy, we made the regional, I think that was what 2002, when Verlander was pitching an old Dominion, and they were at our regional site and ODU held him for their next game.
40:20.066 --> 40:21.907
[SPEAKER_06]: They kind of rolled the dice, so we never saw him.
40:23.427 --> 40:30.610
[SPEAKER_06]: So it was interesting, you know, just watching that, because I just remember over 20 years ago, back when he was still pitching an old Dominion or Steein,
40:31.363 --> 40:37.648
[SPEAKER_06]: He was a stud then and he was certainly going to be a Hall of Famer in the major league baseball in Cooper's town one day.
40:37.708 --> 40:39.329
[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, that was neat.
40:39.349 --> 40:40.590
[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm excited.
40:40.610 --> 40:42.712
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a baseball podcast.
40:43.913 --> 40:44.293
[SPEAKER_06]: I know it.
40:44.894 --> 40:48.016
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's wrap it up because I'm ready for game time.
40:48.136 --> 40:49.337
[SPEAKER_06]: So let me let you go.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Let's let us all all these wonderful people go.
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[SPEAKER_06]: They're listening and we will do it again next week.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Charles.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this week's edition of the EcoRite Speaks podcast brought to you by the team at republicean.org.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to visit republicean.org to learn more and find out how you can be a local EcoRite leader.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Eagle Right Speaks Podcast, where we discuss climate change from a right of center, free enterprise, innovation perspective.
00:14.012 --> 00:18.955
[SPEAKER_01]: Every week, we feature guests who have insights into climate solutions that make sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Bobbingless of RepublicE and.org.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're Conservatives who care about climate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We see opportunities ahead in solving climate change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For America and the whole world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now here's the host of the show, Chelsea Henderson.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Hello listeners, welcome back.
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[SPEAKER_04]: As our fearless leader Bob just noted, I'm Chelsea Henderson, the host of this show, which makes me your guide for a journey in the conversations centered around climate policy, advocacy and leadership.
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[SPEAKER_04]: With an emphasis on the community, we foster the ego right.
00:56.350 --> 01:05.855
[SPEAKER_04]: If you hear me chuckling, it's because my crazy kittens are running around my office right now, hopefully not making so much noise, but they bring great joy into my day.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I digress for today's episode, we invited an expert from within our own Mason 4C family to speak about his area of expertise.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Doran Tucker completed his PhD at George Mason University in the Department of Communication in 2025.
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[SPEAKER_04]: His research interests focus on the nexus of identity, policy, and the environment with a particular emphasis on effective climate communication and appolation and military contexts.
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[SPEAKER_04]: As an avid hunter and crafter of medieval armor, which we did not get to talk about, Doran routinely intermishes as hobbies and academic inquiry.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I have to give a huge shout out to my colleague, Angela Lark, also working on her doctorate, by the way, for recommending Doran for the show.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He is thoughtful, funny, and so smart as you are about to hear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: His research focuses, as I mentioned, on this strategic connection, communication connection between climate change and national security.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, along those lines, he's also exploring trust and trustworthiness and risk communication.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the role that conservative voices can play in advancing climate policy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He is so thoughtful and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.
02:26.732 --> 02:32.294
[SPEAKER_03]: You are listening to the EcoRiteSpeaks podcast brought to you by my fun and talented colleagues at RepublicanE&.org.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Wendy, outreach director, and I'm wondering, do you have a guest idea for the show?
02:37.575 --> 02:38.555
[SPEAKER_03]: If so, let us know.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We want to feature the voices you want to hear.
02:41.796 --> 02:44.897
[SPEAKER_03]: In the meantime, enjoy Chelsea's conversation with today's guests.
02:47.018 --> 02:48.618
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back listeners.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so excited to be here with a colleague from Mason 4C.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you for having me.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I'm so excited to get to chat a little bit with you today.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This so, you know, if you're listening ed, you might blush a little bit, but it does seem that it took a couple people to replace
03:19.050 --> 03:23.314
[SPEAKER_05]: I've taught a couple of thumb up, and I don't know that replaces the rape words.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Fill in, fill it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Fill it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Like, I did.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I had the chance to teach the climate change communication campaigns class that had designed that I took a handful of years ago.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so it's really exciting to be able to teach that class, but by own spin on it, bring in my own twists and thinkings while still paying homage to a really great course.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So it's exciting to be a part of foresee and the part of the George Mason community study and climate change communication.
03:53.816 --> 04:03.282
[SPEAKER_04]: So you and I were chatting a little bit before the show started and you know this idea of how we communicate climate change is so important.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And you know there's not going to be a one size fits all some arguments and any and this you know is across the board regardless of whatever type of change you're trying to evoke.
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[SPEAKER_04]: incentives and strategies and arguments and so forth, but tell me how the dots connected for you and your own research on how to communicate climate change risk.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so, and this is going to start at a slightly divergent place.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I was an undergrad at Penn State studying international politics and geography, and I was actually learning about remote sensing, and I had a whole class that was all about how GPS is paid for by the United States Air Force, and it's basically this gift that they gave everyone in the United States.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was profoundly impacted by that and thinking through the ways in which the throughout U.S. history investments in military infrastructure have had downstream impacts for the benefit of the society broadly.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You know, the interstate system was developed in no small part as a mechanism for getting people out of cities if there were a nuclear attack on the country.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And was it that I some power wasn't he sort of the overseer he was president at that time and obviously big general during World War II and strategic military thinker.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and then we get we get GPS through the the 70s and 80s and you know, these are satellites that are owned and operated by the US Air Force and they are so critical to what we do, you know, on this last time you went on a road trip and didn't plug your destination into GPS somehow, right, and so so much of our economy so much of our like daily lives is just based on this infrastructure that is that is fundamentally tied to military.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was sitting there as a bright eye, was she tailed undergrad, thinking about, okay, well, what would that look like for climate change?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Are there investments that the military might make in the climate space that could have these downstream impacts on society just broadly?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's sort of launched me into this nexus of military, military infrastructure and national security and climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And it just so happened that I had the benefit of finding this class that was climate changing national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It was the first time it was ever offered at Penn State.
06:25.804 --> 06:26.684
[SPEAKER_05]: I was an undergrad.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It was a grad class.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I ended up finning it so that I could take the class anyway.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I got to work with a guy named Dave Titley who was a rare admiral retired in the US Navy and he'd stood up task force climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: He ran it in 2007, 2008 when the Navy really started digging in on what did climate change mean for national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that's sort of I see that as this formative experience.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So I spent the next couple of years sort of the end of my my undergraduate and through my masters.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Studying the ways in which climate change impacts national security and then we can really think about it a couple of different ways, but you can think threat multiplying right it makes bad things worse You know, so there people often talk about serious this example, you know, there were series of droughts between 2006 and 2000
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[SPEAKER_05]: 11 in Syria that caused or contributed to internal displacement and then you've got a bunch of people who used to be farmers who are now in cities looking for jobs and you know pretty soon we have the civil war against special Assad and like that isn't necessarily like you can't draw a straight line between climate change and the series of war but it's a compounding factor.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It makes already bad situations a little bit worse.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It turns up the heat so it's
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[SPEAKER_05]: Um, but we can also think about how climate changes directly impacting US national security.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So if you think about increased rates of humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations, um, if we think about black flag days, where our troops are now training because of severe weather, um, if we think about.
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[SPEAKER_05]: situation where even infrastructure is getting flooded, we have sunny day flooding out of a variety of different military installations in the U.S. and globally.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Those are having direct impacts on our military readiness.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so I spent a lot of my time with Dave thinking about those.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And as I sort of finished with that, it was like, OK, and I've finished my masters in 2020.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So it was the end of the Trump administration.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I wrote this master's paper, those sort of charting, what is America doing about climate change versus what are we saying?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And comparing it to our five-i-o-liance allies and the UK Australia and New Zealand and Canada.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And what I found was that they were all saying, a whole lot more than we were about climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: There was more sort of the ciferous work and I do things about climate change.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's a national security threat.
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[SPEAKER_05]: But the United States was actually still doing quite a lot.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We were just not saying about it, not using those politicized CC words.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I sort of want to, okay, is this an opportunity to have different conversations?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that throughout my PhD, I sort of focused on my grandfather, who's a very right-of-center person, who has historically not believed in climate change, and he became my focal.
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[SPEAKER_05]: My focal individual is like, can I have a different conversation with my grandfather about climate change?
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[SPEAKER_05]: And if I come and say, listen, I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not being this environmental person,
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[SPEAKER_05]: This is the U.S. Navy who you're spent your entire career designing little radio components for saying the climate changes threat and is that a way to have a different conversation that makes it more meaningful for him.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so that's what I decided to do my PhD in and that's why I came to George Mason.
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[SPEAKER_05]: These people leave the guys to work with if you want to study climate change communication.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And that's how I ended up here and I came in day one saying I'm going to study climate change as a national security threat and it's what I did my dissertation on.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I stuck to my guns.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So we have had Sherry Goodman on the show before who is a cleaner of the threat multiplier term and I think you know it's such a great way to think about the impacts of climate change and it's a little bit like how.
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[SPEAKER_04]: we can't say hurricane Katrina was caused by climate change, but we can say climate change contributed to conditions that made hurricane Katrina worse.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of that is similar with especially the conflicts abroad.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But some of the stuff you were saying, I know, because I worked for Senator John Warner, late Senator John Warner from Virginia, not to be confused with the current Senator Mark Warner from Virginia, not related, but they were very good friends, actually.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the Norfolk Air Force
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not, I'm now I'm gonna blank on, is it the largest U.S. space or is it the largest naval base maybe in the U.S. and you know the corners don't have a lot of if we were to have to deploy quickly.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So it's not really a place that we can afford to let sink due to rising sea levels and you know, I think back in those days when I was working for Senator Warner
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, he had been chairman of the Armed Services Committee.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Had a military had been Secretary of Navy early in his public service career.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so went to Italy and Oh gosh, Denny McGin and my favorite one.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He was so mild-mannered Galaway, General Galaway.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm pulling these names out of a hat for sure, but came in and talked to him.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That, and said, you know,
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[SPEAKER_04]: We are the top, you know, they're retired at that point, but retired highest ranking flag got retired flag officers in the U.S. across all the branches of the military and we agree.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We might not agree on what is causing climate change, but we do not dispute it as happening and we do not dispute that it has significant impacts on our readiness.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that meant a lot to Senator Warner and compelled him to want to write a bill and to act by partisanly.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so I do think that these conversations are really important.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And one thing that I believe it was General Gallo way that he said, you know, at the time, this was 2007, 2008, time period.
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[SPEAKER_04]: One of the big arguments we heard on Capitol Hill all the time was, we don't know 100 percent.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We don't know for sure.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And
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[SPEAKER_04]: What Galois said was, if we waited to get 100% certainty on the battlefield, we've lost the battle.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like we have to make decisions with the information that we have, or we will be worse off.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I think about that a lot.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I was actually just picturing that quote.
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[SPEAKER_05]: They actually, so the Center for Naval Analysis and A came out with this sort of seminal report in 2007.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And they called that out in a callout quote.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I was picturing that as you were talking, because I agree.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's one of those super,
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[SPEAKER_05]: relevant sort of understandings that the military brings is like we have to act in instances of uncertainty because if we don't, we're already behind, you know, if we waited for 100 percent certain and that there are risks that are worth
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[SPEAKER_05]: trying to gain a little bit of first move for advantage on, you know, like we can't wait for a complete surgery.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We have a strong enough estimate, but this is bad, and it's worth taking sensible precautions.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And to link this back to your what you were saying in the opening about remote sensing and how the US government was basically able to commercialize
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[SPEAKER_04]: this technology to a point where now we just all have it on our phones and you're right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: My son who's 25 today actually day of recording, he told me recently that he's decided he wants to go analog and so he's trying to get places without using his GPS and
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[SPEAKER_04]: Bless him, he's really bad at following GPS directions, so I'm not sure how much better he's going to be with a paper map, but TBD.
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[SPEAKER_04]: The military, the DOD can have that role for climate related technologies, too.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I just remember being, I was at Stanford actually, and there was a, at the,
14:35.835 --> 14:48.685
[SPEAKER_04]: Hoover Institute and they were having this presentation and they had this it was a solar array that folded up into a blanket that was like the size of a piece of paper and they were basically like we
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[SPEAKER_04]: We can't, one of the things that puts the U.S. troops into harm's ways, especially in the countries and areas like the Middle East, is the transport, the fuel transports, right?
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[SPEAKER_04]: You have these trucks that are transporting fuel, they're large, you can't really hide them.
15:05.275 --> 15:15.339
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a desert, there's no cover, and so their targets for attack, and so they were trying to think of ways to use yet less fossil fuels.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And so, but they also can't be carrying around these big solar arrays, but, you know, it was a blanket, basically, you know, like be unfolded and it captures the rays of the sun and we can plug out what we need to plug into it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And then when we're done, we fold it back up and again, it's like the size of, you know, eight and a half by 11.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought, wow, that's, that's the kind of stuff that DOD has the power to kind of make commonplace for us.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But it takes an investment from the federal
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I think the lesson learned from the push towards say biofuels during the Obama administration is that we can't have that be framed as we need to do this to be environmental, you know, the military's objective isn't to be in an environmental organization, it's to fight in win wars and I think.
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[SPEAKER_05]: But for me as a communicator, I always want to keep that in mind.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I want to make sure that when I talk about climate change as a national security threat, I am maintaining that recognition of what is the primary goal of the U.S. military.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's to protect the United States and the U.S. Constitution and country.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so where there are synergies, exactly as you're describing, right?
16:28.650 --> 16:35.575
[SPEAKER_05]: We suffered so many casualties and are all kind of Afghanistan because we were driving giant tankers oil to forward operating bases.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so if we can create a mechanism for providing energy at forward operating bases, that is, got us shorter.
16:44.160 --> 16:46.183
[SPEAKER_05]: logistic strain that's less vulnerable.
16:46.643 --> 16:51.709
[SPEAKER_05]: That is where we have a flighting advantage, but also an environmental advantage.
16:52.670 --> 17:03.083
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think in the United States right now, recognizing that the United States civilian grid infrastructure, which is what most military bases are attached to is highly vulnerable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, let's think about how we bring small scale nuclear reactors with our solar, we create robustness and resilience in the military grid, but we can do so in a way that also makes them more sustainable.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And so there are opportunities there.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I think being able to communicate that, you know, when I go to my grandpa and I'm talking about this, it's like, okay, well, let's think about this.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We know that the U.S. grid system is vulnerable, you know,
17:31.173 --> 17:40.118
[SPEAKER_05]: What if we go ahead and put some, you know, wind turbines or solar panels or small granular reactors on days so that we can reduce that vulnerability?
17:54.904 --> 18:06.714
[SPEAKER_04]: But what are the other risks that I think that is a national security risk as well that is really linked to kind of a hot topic today is immigration and the potential for climate immigration.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, we obviously have a, you know, debates continue to rage in this country on how we handle immigration and if we have countries that are suffering.
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[SPEAKER_04]: big climatic events, and if those people, especially as it would have to come from the central and South America, are then trying to come into the United States, we exacerbate a problem that we already don't have a solution to and create a little more instability.
18:35.293 --> 18:45.037
[SPEAKER_04]: Or you look at what happened in Nepal last month, and I don't know what the ramifications might be for
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[SPEAKER_04]: your family has lived in a place for multiple generations and you have a way of life that doesn't seem as quite of a pick-up and go culture as we might have here.
18:59.613 --> 19:09.557
[SPEAKER_04]: But these are real considerations that are beyond, as you said, beyond the environment, their people focus, but they are security and risk focused as well.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
19:11.115 --> 19:16.358
[SPEAKER_05]: And financial, I mean, I, I remember just thinking, you know, my master's is an international affairs.
19:16.398 --> 19:18.139
[SPEAKER_05]: I had lots of former ambassadors and stuff.
19:18.200 --> 19:23.202
[SPEAKER_05]: And one of the points they drilled in was that kinetic, you know, military responses are almost always the most expensive.
19:23.603 --> 19:28.125
[SPEAKER_05]: And so if we can spend on a diplomatic response beforehand, we're going to spend less money.
19:28.165 --> 19:28.365
[SPEAKER_05]: And so,
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[SPEAKER_05]: You know, yes, it costs money to fix some of these problems upfront, but I think of it like going to Sam's clever Costco.
19:34.807 --> 19:41.309
[SPEAKER_05]: You're going to walk out with a big bill, but if you compare that to going through the grocery store for five times, you're actually paying less.
19:41.349 --> 19:48.631
[SPEAKER_05]: And so there's a fiscal conservancy to frontloading that cost and getting more, more bang for your buck.
19:48.811 --> 19:50.432
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's a really interesting place.
19:50.492 --> 19:51.012
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, yes,
19:51.712 --> 20:05.537
[SPEAKER_05]: If we can address more climate change threats, if we can mitigate climate change and adapt to climate change in places that help avoid migration, that saves us a lot of headache down the road and probably will save us a lot of money down the road.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So have you have you convinced your grandpa?
20:11.141 --> 20:14.184
[SPEAKER_05]: So, so I did my dissertation.
20:14.584 --> 20:21.850
[SPEAKER_05]: What I found was that overall statistically, there wasn't a lot of persuasive impact of frame and climate change.
20:21.930 --> 20:26.153
[SPEAKER_05]: So I did interviews and I did a sort of survey experiment.
20:26.373 --> 20:31.918
[SPEAKER_05]: And one of the things I wanted to see in the survey experiment was comparing that sort of threat multiplier versus direct impacts.
20:32.498 --> 20:38.401
[SPEAKER_05]: not a whole lot of difference between the two, and neither was necessarily persuasive in the context of a survey.
20:38.481 --> 20:43.825
[SPEAKER_05]: Like people's opinions are fairly seven stones, so it's harder to change their minds.
20:45.425 --> 20:54.170
[SPEAKER_05]: What I did find, and sort of sort of to the conversation with my grandfather, because I did, I wrote my dissertation to him, if anyone goes out, it's open access, you can go and find it.
20:54.591 --> 20:55.591
[SPEAKER_05]: My introduction is
20:57.360 --> 21:12.213
[SPEAKER_05]: to my grandfather and discusses what it's like to sit at the Thanksgiving dinner table and have my grandparents ask me how my studies are going and knowing that we're about to have a conversation where we disagree on the sort of fundamental topic.
21:13.299 --> 21:34.967
[SPEAKER_05]: But I also wanted to answer their question and I wanted to work on persuading them and so I gave my grandfather a hardbound copy of the dissertation when I completed it and he read it and he wrote a whole set of responses that he put in a little binder that I keep on my bookshelf now, which was incredibly heartfelt and I deeply appreciate him taking the time to do that.
21:35.647 --> 21:39.631
[SPEAKER_05]: And I did, I can instant them that climate change is a problem.
21:39.731 --> 21:42.033
[SPEAKER_05]: He went to a different place than I have gone.
21:42.473 --> 21:43.974
[SPEAKER_05]: He is a very religious man.
21:44.014 --> 21:47.798
[SPEAKER_05]: And so he has decided that it is evidence of the end of days.
21:49.159 --> 21:51.000
[SPEAKER_05]: Which I'll take, right?
21:51.121 --> 21:53.382
[SPEAKER_05]: I convinced him, his risk perceptions went up.
21:53.583 --> 21:56.986
[SPEAKER_05]: And that was sort of the goal in my communication with increased risk perception.
21:57.286 --> 22:00.469
[SPEAKER_05]: His attribution, he's attributing it to something that are not.
22:01.309 --> 22:11.317
[SPEAKER_05]: But we can now have conversations and we have, it's like, okay, if you think it's the end of days and recognizing that he thinks that the end of days could hit and there could be the rapture anytime now.
22:11.778 --> 22:18.643
[SPEAKER_05]: But within that, maybe we should do something about it while we can because it's actually a big moral work could be a hundred years.
22:18.723 --> 22:23.187
[SPEAKER_05]: And if we're going to have to live with this for a hundred years, maybe we should build some solar panels.
22:24.068 --> 22:24.668
[SPEAKER_05]: And he agrees.
22:26.300 --> 22:33.107
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that you had this very thoughtful and gracious interaction with your grandfather.
22:33.507 --> 22:46.460
[SPEAKER_04]: A few weeks ago, we had the host of, we've got to talk on our show and their one self-profess liberal and one self-professed conservative and on their show, they tackle big issues, but they they listen to each other, right?
22:46.520 --> 22:49.563
[SPEAKER_04]: They're polite, they're, doesn't mean that they
22:51.021 --> 22:59.095
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not trying to change each other's mind, so that's a little bit of a difference with your grandfather, but I think the more that we can have these conversations in a way that is is.
23:00.564 --> 23:06.987
[SPEAKER_04]: graceful and not, you know, sort of, I don't know where everybody so angry these days.
23:07.047 --> 23:22.595
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, if he landed on a rapture reason to think that we need to address climate change, hey, I also had a boss on the Environment and Public Works Committee who was very pro-environmental action because he was like, we have to protect God's creation.
23:23.116 --> 23:24.716
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was, you know, where he was
23:28.580 --> 23:35.787
[SPEAKER_04]: I, you know, he didn't want to someday be questioned that he hadn't done enough to protect this earth that was created for us to live on.
23:35.827 --> 23:45.636
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think however you get to the argument, you know, this kind of goes back to what we're saying at the beginning, different people are going to resonate with different, different messages and
23:46.366 --> 23:47.627
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm curious.
23:47.727 --> 23:56.432
[SPEAKER_04]: So you said that your survey that, you know, people are very intractable right now and you didn't necessarily see a big shift.
23:56.752 --> 24:02.615
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you think that's because right now it's risk and not reality.
24:02.655 --> 24:05.257
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we had something happen,
24:07.142 --> 24:23.072
[SPEAKER_04]: where that risk became man, that risk manifested, that is it more like we have to have it kind of slap us in the face before something changes and how we perceive.
24:24.905 --> 24:27.527
[SPEAKER_05]: I think a lot of it is identity type now, right?
24:27.688 --> 24:33.973
[SPEAKER_05]: I think we've got in so stuck in this idea that Democrats are for climate change and Republicans are against it.
24:34.093 --> 24:43.002
[SPEAKER_05]: I had in the interviews, I interviewed this gentleman who is very, very right of center, very, very climate skeptical.
24:44.783 --> 24:52.505
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, he, he, I asked him what he thought of climate change is a national security issue and his, his initial response was, um, perfane.
24:53.345 --> 24:58.246
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, and I was like, okay, but I kept talking with him.
24:58.306 --> 25:01.147
[SPEAKER_05]: And we, we talked for two and a half hours in that interview.
25:01.487 --> 25:07.548
[SPEAKER_05]: And by the end, he was like, yeah, if you could just call it like extreme weather, warfighting, I'd be all for it.
25:07.728 --> 25:10.909
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, the military should be looking at what are the effects on basics.
25:10.989 --> 25:11.329
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think,
25:11.909 --> 25:36.867
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's a place where, you know, and it was an interesting place to come to, but I ended up sort of finishing the dissertation on There's a continued need for almost like a don't ask don't tell in a climate security space right now because there is broad support Or taking common sense policies around climate change Our invasives with renewable energies 83% support on my survey
25:38.129 --> 25:41.220
[SPEAKER_05]: deploying an all-electric combat vehicle by 2050, 61% support.
25:44.497 --> 25:55.559
[SPEAKER_05]: fixing sort of like sustainability issues and energy issues on basis to help reduce mold, but also making the more energy efficient, 86% support.
25:55.599 --> 26:04.461
[SPEAKER_05]: There's really, really broad support for sort of these comments and policies, especially if you've silenced the climate part of them.
26:04.581 --> 26:07.622
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think a lot of the challenge right now is that
26:08.762 --> 26:20.544
[SPEAKER_05]: it's become so tied to our identities and it triggers that identity instead of having a real conversation because I think part of what I was able to do with my grandfather was to make it not a threat.
26:20.985 --> 26:35.988
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think one of the challenges right now and climate change is always depicted as super partisan and there are issues with that because far more Republicans and people right of center believe in climate change than we ever give credit for like there's this pluralistic
26:38.201 --> 26:47.323
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think there's also value in recognizing the ways in which certain Democrats have been happy to use it as a political country.
26:47.343 --> 26:59.227
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, and so how can we have actual conversations about climate change that allow us to build broad coalitions instead of focusing on a single set of policy responses.
27:00.947 --> 27:07.110
[SPEAKER_05]: I think, you know, of studying politics, I had that, you know, Bismarck politics is the art of the possible quote.
27:07.151 --> 27:11.533
[SPEAKER_05]: I think there are things that are possible in the climate change space in the US.
27:11.573 --> 27:17.916
[SPEAKER_05]: We just need to be intelligent about how we try and build those coalitions to make things possible.
27:17.936 --> 27:24.000
[SPEAKER_05]: And some of that is going to, is going to require negotiate or not what are these policy sets that we feel like we have to support.
27:24.980 --> 27:44.253
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think climate change is pressing enough that that a slow as smooth smooth as fast approach is going to be a whole lot more beneficial than pushing for like this perfect end state like incremental steps will be faster certainly than doing nothing which is unfortunately where we've been in many respects.
27:44.553 --> 27:45.714
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
27:46.395 --> 28:05.357
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think we have a lot to communicate with you and I and our respective jobs and I just am forever grateful for the foresee team and your partners over at Yale and all the great research that gets done and I think, you know,
28:06.017 --> 28:32.593
[SPEAKER_04]: We can move the needle, you have to be thoughtful about it, and that's what I like about being part of this community is just there's a recognition that there's not a one message fits all and that we do need to move away from words like urgency in the scare tactics that honestly just make people want to give up right like why would you want to put yourself out to change for example how you live your life.
28:33.384 --> 28:35.547
[SPEAKER_04]: if you think the world's going to end in seven years.
28:36.768 --> 28:36.909
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
28:36.949 --> 28:40.012
[SPEAKER_04]: My does all enjoy those cheeseburgers and drive the gaskos alert.
28:40.152 --> 28:44.638
[SPEAKER_05]: And well, and I think that's another place where the security perspective comes in, right?
28:44.678 --> 28:47.802
[SPEAKER_05]: Because it brings a really clear ride understanding that.
28:49.082 --> 29:00.013
[SPEAKER_05]: some extent these are math problems and they're measured in lives and dollars and so saying the world's gonna end in seven years doesn't help because it paints this picture that the world's stops and we've gone past those over and over again.
29:00.554 --> 29:02.135
[SPEAKER_05]: What we need to communicate is that the
29:06.980 --> 29:13.522
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the sooner we do things, the sooner we save lives of the dollars, and that becomes the incentive.
29:13.602 --> 29:26.487
[SPEAKER_05]: And then it is a math problem, and we can figure out an equilibrium, you know, if rapid transition is going to cost lives and dollars, then we can just do the math about where is the equilibrium point that is the best point for transition.
29:26.962 --> 29:30.966
[SPEAKER_04]: where we can let the AI overlords do the math problems.
29:31.267 --> 29:33.609
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, then that may be where we're headed here.
29:33.669 --> 29:35.792
[SPEAKER_05]: That's technological solutions.
29:35.832 --> 29:36.913
[SPEAKER_05]: We love to land best.
29:36.953 --> 29:39.256
[SPEAKER_05]: But maybe AI will just solve all of it for us.
29:39.396 --> 29:45.262
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was an earlier episode this season, where we are tapping into the AI investment to
29:46.347 --> 29:49.029
[SPEAKER_04]: for more clean energy, obviously.
29:49.049 --> 29:56.656
[SPEAKER_04]: But we could talk about a thousand offshoots from this topic, and I would love to have you back to continue the conversation.
29:56.676 --> 29:58.978
[SPEAKER_04]: But for today, I really appreciate your time.
29:59.018 --> 30:03.882
[SPEAKER_04]: And thanks for sharing your research and your insights and congrats on your grandpa.
30:04.563 --> 30:05.364
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you so much.
30:07.706 --> 30:08.967
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't go anywhere listeners.
30:09.387 --> 30:11.089
[SPEAKER_02]: My favorite part of this show is coming up.
30:11.845 --> 30:23.028
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Angela Clark, the engagement director of a public-y-in.org and I love listening to Chelsea and our producer, Price, Atkinson, wrap up each episode with their thoughts, jokes, minty banter.
30:23.748 --> 30:25.789
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, a preview on next week's show.
30:26.409 --> 30:27.529
[SPEAKER_02]: So stay tuned.
30:28.050 --> 30:30.450
[SPEAKER_02]: That segment is coming up next.
30:31.831 --> 30:32.751
[SPEAKER_04]: So Price.
30:33.251 --> 30:38.732
[SPEAKER_04]: I know today's episode was about our new friend, Doran Tucker, who is, by the way,
30:41.789 --> 30:51.496
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even get to talk to him about his hobbies outside of work, which it just sounds like he's a medieval, cool medieval guy.
30:51.536 --> 30:52.856
[SPEAKER_04]: I bet he likes the red and fair.
30:54.077 --> 30:59.981
[SPEAKER_04]: But before we get to Doran, I have to tell you about the weirdest dream I had about Ed Maybach.
31:00.692 --> 31:03.833
[SPEAKER_04]: that he was at a conference in Angela and I were there.
31:04.013 --> 31:08.495
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were like, we're going to talk to him about some ideas that we have for Repeliki and that org.
31:09.395 --> 31:16.157
[SPEAKER_04]: And he interpreted what we were saying to me that we needed more work to do.
31:16.378 --> 31:19.379
[SPEAKER_04]: So he assigned us both janitorial roles.
31:20.259 --> 31:25.581
[SPEAKER_04]: And so then we were like in this hallway that it was like the school, right, George Mason Youth is a university.
31:25.621 --> 31:28.102
[SPEAKER_04]: And we had like the janitor uniform
31:29.658 --> 31:32.359
[SPEAKER_04]: Angela's pushing a broom and we were like, why did we say anything?
31:32.379 --> 31:33.079
[SPEAKER_04]: That sucks.
31:33.759 --> 31:35.319
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know why I had that.
31:35.719 --> 31:38.380
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're listening, why were you so mean to me in your dreams?
31:39.740 --> 31:53.603
[SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, Doran, great guy and just really pleased to get to spend some time with him and get to know him and his important work connecting national security and climate risk and climate
31:56.953 --> 32:13.466
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Center for 4C, turning out outstanding academic individuals like Doran and doing amazing work on climate change and kind of a different slice of the spear, if you will, national security.
32:13.586 --> 32:19.171
[SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, there's always obviously different angles to certainly different issues.
32:19.251 --> 32:22.173
[SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, he's, I think he's got certainly a different one.
32:22.193 --> 32:22.693
[SPEAKER_06]: So it was great to
32:25.424 --> 32:27.105
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, some family background and things like that.
32:27.165 --> 32:30.526
[SPEAKER_04]: So you know, I'm a sucker for some family tie in.
32:30.626 --> 32:39.091
[SPEAKER_04]: So that I was just pleased to hear how he was able to use his research to as an opening to connect with his grandfather on the topic.
32:39.351 --> 32:54.038
[SPEAKER_04]: And so yeah, I couldn't not thank Angela for she initially had a conversation with Doran when he first came to Mason for see maybe not when he first came on, but you know, they're both.
32:55.724 --> 33:02.090
[SPEAKER_04]: doing, well, he's postdoc and I think Angela's pre-doc, but now I'm going to publish, I might have that wrong.
33:02.791 --> 33:05.633
[SPEAKER_04]: In pursuit of her PhD, I believe he already has his.
33:06.374 --> 33:15.223
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, connecting over their research and she was on the reach out and I was like, I think he'd be a great guest on the show and he was so thank you Angela.
33:16.324 --> 33:17.385
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, definitely.
33:17.425 --> 33:17.725
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
33:18.729 --> 33:23.831
[SPEAKER_06]: Definitely a great opportunity to have him on and introduce him to our listeners and vice versa.
33:23.851 --> 33:26.512
[SPEAKER_06]: So let us speak in our listeners.
33:26.612 --> 33:33.795
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me make the call or make the ask right now if you are listening right now and that's in your time number one, we appreciate it.
33:33.835 --> 33:38.857
[SPEAKER_06]: Number two, we would love to have you subscribe to the ego right speaks.
33:38.957 --> 33:44.740
[SPEAKER_06]: Just hit the subscribe button, whether you're a podcast, Spotify doesn't matter wherever you get your podcast so you can have.
33:45.873 --> 33:50.575
[SPEAKER_06]: Every Tuesdays episodes new episodes comes out on Tuesdays have it delivered right to you.
33:50.815 --> 33:51.656
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, Jules.
33:51.676 --> 33:53.037
[SPEAKER_06]: So please hit that button.
33:53.417 --> 33:54.557
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please do.
33:54.917 --> 33:59.740
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, you're going to hear from me once a week on Friday.
33:59.840 --> 34:01.961
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all you're ever going to hear from me.
34:02.081 --> 34:05.403
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to hear from Angela once or twice a month.
34:05.503 --> 34:09.745
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's, you know, as we like to say, we do not spam people.
34:09.885 --> 34:10.105
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
34:11.523 --> 34:13.165
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's informative and fun.
34:13.505 --> 34:18.089
[SPEAKER_04]: You get to find out a little bit about what's going on in my life and a lot of bit of what's going on in the eco right.
34:18.309 --> 34:23.113
[SPEAKER_06]: So there you go, we can review is award winning outstanding stuff.
34:23.153 --> 34:26.056
[SPEAKER_06]: It is read by many and including thousands.
34:26.276 --> 34:28.318
[SPEAKER_06]: So you want to check out.
34:29.515 --> 34:35.657
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea's Weekend Review every single Friday, sign up, stand with us for public end.org forage last join.
34:35.677 --> 34:38.757
[SPEAKER_06]: What we do always shout out how you can join us.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Let's shout out some new members.
34:40.018 --> 34:52.861
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea, let's talk about Jim B. in Oklahoma, Dolores, Kay and Arizona, Tyler H and North Carolina, Joan H and Massachusetts, and Marlene C in Pennsylvania for deciding to stand with us since we came to you last time.
34:52.941 --> 34:57.142
[SPEAKER_06]: So thank you again as we shout out, handful of new members every single week.
34:57.862 --> 35:06.345
[SPEAKER_06]: appreciate them for hitting that join button and rub up Republican.org forward slash join that takes mere seconds.
35:06.605 --> 35:08.626
[SPEAKER_06]: So we appreciate them.
35:09.026 --> 35:11.907
[SPEAKER_06]: Chelsea, what do we have ahead next week?
35:11.927 --> 35:18.770
[SPEAKER_04]: So next week, we're going to do a blast from the past and have our friend Mary and I'm in Kuso.
35:19.519 --> 35:25.662
[SPEAKER_04]: fresh off of her two-year stint at the Miami Harold where she was on the editorial board.
35:26.303 --> 35:48.515
[SPEAKER_04]: On the sad side, the Miami Harold just let go a bunch of journalists says a lot of major media outlets have been doing and she got caught in that widespread layoff round, but on the plus side, she is now free to write for us again and help us get our message out.
35:49.395 --> 35:55.780
[SPEAKER_04]: She is going to come on and talk a little bit about her plans now that she is no longer with the herald.
35:55.820 --> 35:58.021
[SPEAKER_04]: And also a little bit about what she learned in those two years.
35:58.041 --> 36:03.885
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that was a really interesting and different job and she's learned a lot from she and I had a conversation.
36:03.965 --> 36:11.830
[SPEAKER_04]: So we will be sharing a conversation on Mary and I'm in Kuso, past and future with our listeners.
36:13.291 --> 36:14.032
[SPEAKER_06]: That is awesome.
36:14.332 --> 36:14.933
[SPEAKER_06]: That is awesome.
36:14.953 --> 36:15.533
[SPEAKER_06]: Can't wait to have.
36:16.457 --> 36:29.683
[SPEAKER_06]: Marianna back on hate hearing that news, but certainly we love Marianna as a somebody that was really a one of the first members of our community was really early on in the process and so we don't really love.
36:29.743 --> 36:40.668
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'd to hear from her next week, just I guess let's let's just go ahead and get out of here because we could out of here, listen, we have to have a talk about baseball.
36:41.448 --> 36:41.808
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
36:47.122 --> 36:48.924
[SPEAKER_06]: how the brave start play against the Phillies.
36:49.464 --> 36:54.830
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, so then why are they so stony face you just start your your nervous.
36:54.850 --> 37:05.420
[SPEAKER_06]: Not in nervous, you know, the red socks are in it against the hated Yankees, so that would be a fun first round, the wild card series and certainly the brave's in the Phillies.
37:05.540 --> 37:07.542
[SPEAKER_06]: I think I just don't have a lot of hope.
37:07.582 --> 37:10.045
[SPEAKER_06]: We're not built for the playoffs and
37:11.243 --> 37:17.589
[SPEAKER_06]: I just think we're going to be one arm short and the fillies have a bunch of heavy, heavy, duty overpowering arms.
37:17.669 --> 37:20.352
[SPEAKER_06]: And so I feel like I've seen this movie many times before.
37:20.412 --> 37:24.035
[SPEAKER_06]: So I'm excited, yes, in my optimistic know.
37:24.376 --> 37:25.056
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you're toxic.
37:25.216 --> 37:26.358
[SPEAKER_06]: You're protecting your heart.
37:26.778 --> 37:27.679
[SPEAKER_04]: You're protecting your heart.
37:27.699 --> 37:29.340
[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm not going to not cheer for my team.
37:29.380 --> 37:30.802
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to be there till the bitter end.
37:30.842 --> 37:31.783
[SPEAKER_06]: You can count on us.
37:32.454 --> 37:42.856
[SPEAKER_04]: So speaking of the bitter end, I was weeping, watching the Justin Vierlander videos of him in his last game throwing out that first pitch to his daughter.
37:42.976 --> 37:46.197
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when he was being pulled from the game, I'm gonna do you just thinking about it.
37:46.717 --> 37:48.518
[SPEAKER_04]: She came to the mound to like walk up.
37:48.978 --> 37:52.599
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, it's like Colin said, how could he not be romantic about baseball?
37:52.679 --> 37:58.940
[SPEAKER_04]: Like just so it's nice to see these touching moments to sports because so much of sports
38:02.741 --> 38:06.224
[SPEAKER_04]: interest and greed and it's so expensive.
38:06.304 --> 38:14.731
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I could go on and on, calling my son, did his thesis on declining attendance at MLB ball parks in the 21st century.
38:14.931 --> 38:17.874
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, one of the big reasons is cost now, right?
38:18.194 --> 38:20.656
[SPEAKER_04]: You used to be able to take your family afford to a ball game.
38:21.096 --> 38:27.482
[SPEAKER_04]: Now it's cheaper to have a year long MLB subscription than it is to take your family
38:31.494 --> 38:48.479
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's quite, quite expensive, but you know, I got to tell you, it was interesting dates me because seeing the Viralander pitches last game for the Tigers, what was the 20 or is it 21 years with Detroit?
38:49.740 --> 38:50.780
[SPEAKER_06]: I probably have that role.
38:51.140 --> 38:52.881
[SPEAKER_06]: He pitches his entire career in Detroit.
38:52.961 --> 38:53.781
[SPEAKER_06]: And he also
38:59.061 --> 39:15.917
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't see that often where, and I think this goes to the monetary part where the big money ball parks can our teams can buy these players at expensive contract prices and so they leave the smaller markets and so you're not seeing the same.
39:16.611 --> 39:28.745
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you're not seeing a player that stays with their team for their whole career or, you know, 20 years of their career and I think that is that has to impact the fan attachment to a team as well, right?
39:28.785 --> 39:36.113
[SPEAKER_04]: If you know that the guys that got either that world series are all going to be sold for parts the next season, it's like kind of hard to get engaged.
39:36.837 --> 39:51.102
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you start with the tigers in 2005 and then he was with the Astros for a couple of big runs and a cup of coffee with the nets in the back with the Astros and one season with the giants and that was back with the tigers.
39:51.162 --> 40:03.567
[SPEAKER_06]: I always think of him as a tiger because he pits there for when I guess 13 years and then kind of the Astros, but Yeah, it's a guy that really didn't move around the lot, but it was
40:05.080 --> 40:20.046
[SPEAKER_06]: It dated me because when I was working in the Naval Academy, we made the regional, I think that was what 2002, when Verlander was pitching an old Dominion, and they were at our regional site and ODU held him for their next game.
40:20.066 --> 40:21.907
[SPEAKER_06]: They kind of rolled the dice, so we never saw him.
40:23.427 --> 40:30.610
[SPEAKER_06]: So it was interesting, you know, just watching that, because I just remember over 20 years ago, back when he was still pitching an old Dominion or Steein,
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[SPEAKER_06]: He was a stud then and he was certainly going to be a Hall of Famer in the major league baseball in Cooper's town one day.
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[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, that was neat.
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[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm excited.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is a baseball podcast.
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[SPEAKER_06]: I know it.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's wrap it up because I'm ready for game time.
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[SPEAKER_06]: So let me let you go.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Let's let us all all these wonderful people go.
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[SPEAKER_06]: They're listening and we will do it again next week.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Charles.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this week's edition of the EcoRite Speaks podcast brought to you by the team at republicean.org.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure to visit republicean.org to learn more and find out how you can be a local EcoRite leader.
