Geopolitics, Mastercard & OpenAI's CCO search

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Welcome to the Earned First podcast. This is Arun
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Sudhaman, founding editor of Earned First. I'm
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joined today by my colleague, David Blecken.
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How are you, David? Very well, thank you. Good.
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It's good to see you. It's been a holiday, right,
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in Japan? Silver Week. Silver Week, yeah. It's
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Golden Week in May and then we have Silver Week
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in September. So lots of holidays in Japan. Yeah,
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indeed. Well, why not? Very good. So we want
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to talk through a few stories that have attracted
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our attention in recent weeks and maybe even
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months. It feels like a lot has happened in the
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public relations industry, of course. Not too
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many dull moments, but particularly this year
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and last year, I do feel like there has been
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a lot happening. um so let's start with your
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newsletter last week where you looked at a sentiment
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in singapore in opposition to the country's national
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airline of course singapore airlines i think
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potentially increasing its investment in air
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india um on the face of it Seems like a pretty
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straightforward business story, but it's not
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quite from what I understand. No, not at all.
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No. So there were various factors involved in
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the story, which it became something quite complicated
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when it started out just as, you know, a fairly
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standard discussion about. as you would expect
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to happen with a listed company. But the issue
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has been that Singapore Airlines is, although
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it's a business, obviously in its own right,
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it's very tied up with Singapore's national image.
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So what started off as a rational discussion
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about business and investments morphed into a
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sort of nationalistic, an outpouring almost of
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emotions on social media. We saw racist slurs
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being thrown around, directed at people of Indian
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origin. And all sorts of accusations being raised
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without any real foundation. Yeah, so it becomes
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a much more complex situation and actually illustrates
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a lot of the trends that corporates are grappling
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with these days, particularly as they relate
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to geopolitics. So Singapore Airlines is, it's
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partially owned by Temasek. I believe. Is that
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right? Or majority -owned? I'm not entirely sure.
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And, of course, Temasek is owned by the Singaporean
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state through the Ministry of Finance. Meanwhile,
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of course, Air India is India's national airline,
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although owned by Tata Group now. undergoing
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quite a painful rebuild. It needs more money.
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SIA had bought a minority stake in Air India
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a few years ago, may have to inject more funds.
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And all of this adds up to potentially this idea
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that hard -earned Singaporean tax dollars are
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being spent to bail out. an indian airline there's
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someone of indian origin as well on the singaporean
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side i believe um is it the sia ceo or the or
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tamasic it was uh yeah it was um tamasic tamasic
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ceo right so that's also become a factor in all
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of this um i thought it was quite extraordinary
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though the response from singaporean government
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actually um they came out and uh quite heavily
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against the racism that I think was evident in
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a lot of the online chatter. And I'm not sure
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it was necessarily the best approach because
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they also repeated some of the racist statements,
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which is not always helpful. Tomasek took a long
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time, not Tomasek SIA. You'll forgive me if I'm
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conflating the two, but from a corporate perspective,
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the response wasn't really quick enough, I think
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was your assessment. So they did take a little
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while to respond and to clarify the position
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of Singapore Airlines, to clarify that it was
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free to make its own investment decisions. um
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that it wasn't the government um sort of wasting
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taxpayers money um so uh there was a period um
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when things started to turn ugly online um there
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was a period of silence um and uh you know a
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vacuum like that obviously allows people to fill
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it with their own voices um And, you know, people
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began to sort of shift the issue towards their
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own agenda, which, you know, it seems there were
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two groups. There were people who had legitimate
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concerns about a poor investment decision because
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Singapore Airlines has lost money through its
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Air India investment. There were people who were
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legitimately concerned about. you know, about
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this business that they're proud of losing money.
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And on the other hand, there was, you know, there
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was a group of people who were obviously very
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anti -Indian, if not anti -foreigner generally.
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And, you know, they used it as an opportunity
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to cast a shadow over the Indian community in
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Singapore. And that's where the government...
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finally decided it was time to step in and try
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to get things under control. They promised to
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unmask the people who had been spreading, you
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know, rumours and racist insults. It's true that
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those insults were repeated and somebody that
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I spoke to did make the point that that... That
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tends to worsen the situation when a government
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representative, you know, obviously he was not
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meaning it in the same way, but just by repeating
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those terms, it just continues the, it sort of
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perpetuates the problem. Yeah. Yeah, no, his
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heart was in the right place, no doubt. Well,
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I guess, depending on your point of view. But
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it's kind of emblematic of, I think, the challenges
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that corporates... increasingly find themselves
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grappling with where you have more nationalism
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to contend with in different shapes and forms.
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Maybe you have more protectionism as well. In
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Singapore specifically, I think this has become
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more of an election issue. So this was actually
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raised in Parliament as well by an MP from the
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Workers' Party. That helped to, I suppose, stoke.
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embers in this case, and then I believe the Business
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Times ran a story as well, which you wouldn't
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necessarily expect that to happen maybe 10, 20
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years ago about a situation like this. So I think
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it does demonstrate how things have shifted,
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even in Singapore, which is not necessarily the
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most freewheeling place, but you can't keep a
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lid on this kind of stuff. Well, I mean, yes
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i mean obviously the world has become more um
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protectionist generally uh and um you know there's
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um there is fear of there is you know economic
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insecurity everywhere including in singapore
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um and um so yeah it it's possible that it became
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it was a bigger issue than it would have been
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uh it became a bigger issue than it would have
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been a few years ago And yeah, it's easy to turn
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this sort of thing into an election issue. The
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idea that, you know, foreign investments or just
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generally some vague foreign forces, as they're
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sometimes referred to, might be taking advantage
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of hardworking locals. So, I mean, it's likely
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to, perhaps in a different form, but... you know,
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we might expect this sort of thing to come up
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again around the election and, you know, and
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it sort of suggests that Singapore has a job
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to do in reassuring people, perhaps reframing
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the idea of foreign investment and openness to
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the rest of the world as a positive thing, something
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that isn't to be feared. and something that's
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also necessary for the country to continue to
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be successful. Yeah, absolutely. Singapore's
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so reliant on... Singapore's so reliant, isn't
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it, really, on foreign business. But definitely
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it's something that for corporate affairs, communications
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heads, they need to be increasingly aware of.
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If you're at an Indian company, for example,
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I think you probably need to be aware that...
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these kinds of forces and this kind of sentiment
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might exist. If you're at a domestic heavyweight,
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you need to be aware of how your foreign investments
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are being assessed, especially if you're, you
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know, if you're taxpayer funded in any way, probably
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raises the stakes even more. And it's interesting
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because I was also in Singapore last week and
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I was at a couple of events where These kinds
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of issues were being discussed. The first was
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the Corporate Affairs Forum run by the PRCA,
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which was really quite focused on public affairs
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and geopolitics. And then we ran a roundtable
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with Edelman on trust corridors, which specifically
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was looking at how trusted companies are when
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they expand beyond their home market and how
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that is influenced by their country of origin.
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by the sector, by the kind of protectionist sentiment
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on the ground in the destination market, by policy
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friction and so on. It's quite an interesting
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discussion. In a way, I suppose the Air India
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Singapore Airlines story brings a lot of these
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things to life in terms of demonstrating how
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geopolitics is becoming a bigger and bigger concern.
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for corporate affairs heads? I would say it certainly
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does. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but the question is
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whether it will actually deter businesses from
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investing or from being active in the market.
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You know, will businesses actually be put off
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by sort of hostile voices in the market? And,
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you know, I think there's optimism that they
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won't. But I don't know. I don't know what you
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think. I'm interested to hear your point of view
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on that. I suspect it's already happening in
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some markets. I think Singapore in general, though,
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because it's such an open and, you know, overall
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welcoming. for foreign business, and indeed it's
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a very active foreign investor in different countries
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around the world. I suspect Singapore is more
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towards one end of the spectrum. But there are
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other countries, including Asian countries, where
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that's not the case, where they have far more
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protectionist policies, where they have a more,
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let's say, open political landscape in which...
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you know politicians and different political
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parties can make capital uh out of these kinds
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of things and that will have an influence on
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on the policy environment as well right i mean
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just you know you look at look at a company like
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tiktok or bite dance for example and the decisions
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it has made in terms of you know where it's open
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where it's not open um you look at the i mean
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you're in japan and uh The relationship between
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Japan and China is always interesting in this
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regard. I feel like we've been talking and writing
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about this stuff for decades now. You'll remember
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the bowing lions or whatever it was back in the
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day. There's always some flare -up, right? And
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we're at a point now where I don't think relations
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are that great. No, they're not, right? In fact,
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we even talked, I think we talked, you may have
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even written about this. last year, or earlier
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this year, in fact, about another flare -up in
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Japan -China relations and how that's impacting
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corporates. So I feel like it does have some
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impact, especially in Japan, you're seeing more
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protectionism in terms of the new, not so new
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anymore, but the political leadership. China
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also is a more insular place now. Do you feel
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that way from a Japanese perspective? I mean,
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I think, well, Japan is missing out on Chinese
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tourism, certainly because the government has
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dissuaded people from visiting Japan. The Chinese
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government has. The Chinese government has quite
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actively. put people off, even if it hasn't actually
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banned people outright from visiting. People
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have had, you know, calls apparently saying that
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they should rethink their travel plans if they're
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planning to go to Japan. So this sort of thing
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will obviously, you know, this will be felt in
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Japan, considering how many Chinese tourists.
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the country has had over the recent years, how
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big a group of tourists they've been. But in
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terms of protectionism in Japan, I don't know
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if I would call it protectionist, but there's
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certainly the government has sort of instilled
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a new sense of caution when it comes to letting
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people into the country. So it's more an immigration
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issue. I think it's a bit less to do with...
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businesses, although there might be some sort
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of higher hurdles for business in Japan. And
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some sectors. I think that was one of the interesting
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points in the Edelman research is it can be very
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sector dependent. So I know Japan, for example,
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has a new energy policy, right? And that's being
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watched quite closely in terms of what that means
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for foreign investors. So it all adds up. I think
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it all adds. a certain amount of risk and complexity
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to the ease of doing business. And that can add
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up and that can have an impact, especially in
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countries that are reliant on international,
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whether it's international investment coming
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in or on expanding beyond their home markets.
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You also wrote earlier this year about all the
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Chinese brands that are going global over the
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last couple of years. and that's i think a really
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interesting one because um they've kind of you
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know for the most part they're avoiding the us
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yeah uh so but they've uh had real success in
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europe um but uh the us is obviously very difficult
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uh as a place to do business with if you're chinese
00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:03.789
if you're a chinese company um but the interesting
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thing is um that these government policies are
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quite different to they don't reflect the feeling
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of consumers um so yeah uh oh i mean sometimes
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they do but i think where where chinese companies
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are concerned um there's a real openness to um
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chinese products now chinese brands you know
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they're often seen as um being high quality um
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product quite desirable products which is it
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is quite a big change um yeah absolutely even
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in india where you know, still certain Chinese
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products and services are banned effectively.
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Chinese mobile phones are still, you know, rated
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quite highly here. And you would have thought
00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:57.369
by now some of this sentiment would have kind
00:18:57.369 --> 00:19:00.089
of filtered down to consumers, but it's not really
00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:03.190
the case. So you do kind of wonder how, yeah,
00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:08.039
how detached it all is from everyday life. It's
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:09.980
an interesting one definitely to keep an eye
00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:14.359
on, but certainly it's something for public affairs
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:19.579
and comms heads to be aware of. So next, let's
00:19:19.579 --> 00:19:21.920
talk about MasterCard. Let's talk about an American
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:28.839
company. And I don't know if you had been following
00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:35.740
their global pitch, which has more or less, more
00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:40.410
or less. reached a resolution over the last few
00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:43.170
weeks. I think you've certainly followed it more
00:19:43.170 --> 00:19:47.430
closely than I have. I'm aware of it. But, I
00:19:47.430 --> 00:19:52.490
mean, why have they... I mean, what's behind
00:19:52.490 --> 00:19:58.970
it all? I think, well, as always, there's the
00:19:58.970 --> 00:20:05.349
stated reasons and then perhaps the kind of maybe
00:20:05.349 --> 00:20:08.259
some of the... some forces behind the scenes.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.819
I think what they have said publicly is, you
00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:12.059
know, that they're trying to become a different
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:17.380
type of company, a technology company, you know,
00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:21.259
an enabler of different kinds of things. They've
00:20:21.259 --> 00:20:24.859
always been leaning, I think, into this payment
00:20:24.859 --> 00:20:26.759
technology, but now they're kind of saying we're
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.019
even, we're sort of beyond that, just technology
00:20:30.019 --> 00:20:32.920
in general. And whether you believe that or not
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:38.059
is, I suppose, Up to you, but that was the sort
00:20:38.059 --> 00:20:41.980
of rationale. I think it's also, though, influenced
00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:44.500
by, as always with these cases, by the change
00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:50.779
of personnel on the client side. The CMO, who
00:20:50.779 --> 00:20:56.099
also heads comms, is a relatively new person,
00:20:56.259 --> 00:21:01.039
Jill Kramer, and she succeeded Rajamannar, who
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.539
was there for 14 years. And so often when you
00:21:06.539 --> 00:21:08.180
have a new person in that role, they want to
00:21:08.180 --> 00:21:11.500
leave there in premature on agency relationships.
00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:16.740
It had been a Ketchum client for a long time,
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.359
a key Ketchum client, but that's all changed.
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.859
I think what is really interesting here, though,
00:21:22.900 --> 00:21:27.539
is that from what I understand, the initial rounds
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.480
of the pitch did include the kind of traditional.
00:21:32.569 --> 00:21:38.490
global pr networks um uh you know in in keeping
00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:43.990
with um mastercard's uh existing agency roster
00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:46.930
which is is ketchum and i think also weber shandwick
00:21:46.930 --> 00:21:49.730
and parts of the world but in the final round
00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:54.289
it was um according to our reporting anyway it
00:21:54.289 --> 00:21:58.890
was we communications and allison neither of
00:21:58.890 --> 00:22:02.859
whom you would say In a global pitch of this
00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:06.940
kind of magnitude, you wouldn't necessarily say
00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:09.299
you would have seen them in the final rounds
00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:11.500
maybe 10, 15 years ago. And I think that reflects
00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:15.059
how the market has changed and how the momentum
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.259
is shifting towards independents and maybe mid
00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:22.059
-sized players as well. And why? Do you have
00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:26.019
a sense of why that is? Why it's shifting? I
00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:29.490
think we've covered... This shift in reasonable
00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:33.809
detail, and I'm sure others have as well, but
00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:39.390
we've looked at the consolidation, at the big
00:22:39.390 --> 00:22:44.609
networks. Holding groups have not had the best
00:22:44.609 --> 00:22:47.170
of times in recent years. They've been outgrown
00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:50.710
by independents. In some cases, they've been
00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:55.549
out -innovated and out -performed. I think scale...
00:22:55.789 --> 00:22:58.170
is far less of an advantage as it used to be
00:22:58.170 --> 00:23:01.730
so you can be a mid -sized network like a wii
00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:07.049
which is not present in many of the markets that
00:23:07.049 --> 00:23:11.109
you know one of the big networks is in but it
00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:13.150
can still handle a global account these days
00:23:13.150 --> 00:23:16.890
because of you know you don't need a flag in
00:23:16.890 --> 00:23:19.690
every market and then of course you look at ketchum
00:23:19.690 --> 00:23:24.089
which was the incumbent and you know now it's
00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:26.109
golden ketchum so it's part of it's a very different
00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:30.029
thing to what it was so again i think all these
00:23:30.029 --> 00:23:33.529
changes um have added up i think there's been
00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:37.869
quite a big exodus of talent from the bigger
00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:41.509
networks and that has maybe played to the uh
00:23:41.509 --> 00:23:45.549
to the that has maybe played out to the benefit
00:23:45.549 --> 00:23:50.470
of you know more more independent or mid -sized
00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:55.089
more agile players so yeah it's it's quite interesting
00:23:55.089 --> 00:23:56.490
from that perspective and i think it's a good
00:23:56.490 --> 00:23:59.450
example maybe of how the market is shifting it's
00:23:59.450 --> 00:24:01.309
also just really rare though to see a global
00:24:01.309 --> 00:24:05.329
pr pitch i mean well i was gonna say yeah yeah
00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:08.490
it's it's so rare and i i'm always wary of saying
00:24:08.490 --> 00:24:11.750
this because you know maybe we're just not doing
00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:14.109
as good a job of reporting them as we once did
00:24:14.109 --> 00:24:17.650
um but they used to be you know, three or four
00:24:17.650 --> 00:24:19.569
of these a year at least, where you'd have a
00:24:19.569 --> 00:24:23.670
big global company, okay, often US headquartered,
00:24:23.670 --> 00:24:28.890
making a global decision on its PR agency. And
00:24:28.890 --> 00:24:31.769
that is quite rare now. That is quite rare. And
00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:34.990
even in this case with MasterCard, it's not clear
00:24:34.990 --> 00:24:38.609
how this new relationship with We will play out
00:24:38.609 --> 00:24:41.950
in, for example, Asia Pacific, where MasterCard
00:24:41.950 --> 00:24:44.789
has Archetype, and in the Middle East, where
00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:49.220
We doesn't. even have a presence it operates
00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:55.299
through affiliate partners um and you you wonder
00:24:55.299 --> 00:24:58.539
about the clients at mastercard at a local and
00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:00.660
regional level if they are necessarily on board
00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:04.480
with this kind of a shift because i think that's
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.019
one of the biggest reasons in in terms of why
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:12.720
we don't see as many global pr pitches because
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:16.630
i think local clients now are much more resistant
00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:24.210
um to being dictated to by hq right um so there's
00:25:24.210 --> 00:25:30.869
tension between uh well i'm not sure i'd i'd
00:25:30.869 --> 00:25:33.049
go that far i'm sure they all get along really
00:25:33.049 --> 00:25:40.789
well um but there's definitely uh more more empowerment
00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:44.369
at a local level And I think that has been a
00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:48.390
strategy from HQ as well for many of these companies.
00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:51.650
They've recognized they're more effective when
00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:53.569
they give their local clients more autonomy.
00:25:55.569 --> 00:25:57.769
So, yeah, it's a really rare one, but well done
00:25:57.769 --> 00:26:00.910
to we, I would say, for winning it, because if
00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.210
there is one and you're in it, I mean, you might
00:26:04.210 --> 00:26:07.950
as well win it. And, yeah, it's got to be a real
00:26:07.950 --> 00:26:10.599
boost for them. And for them, they haven't had
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.039
the easiest of times in the U .S. over the last
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.039
couple of years because, you know, we as a very
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:19.680
tech -focused agency and it hasn't been very
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.680
easy in terms of technology PR spending. So good
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.880
luck to them and we will watch MasterCard. I
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:29.420
think it will be very interesting to see how
00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:33.000
it does unfold in terms of different relationships.
00:26:34.199 --> 00:26:37.700
In general, big brands like Mastercard, we can
00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:41.039
say they're looking for more flexibility. And
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400
also, is it fair to say looking for perhaps a
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.599
more creative approach than they might be able
00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:52.079
to find at a very large network? I think every
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.299
client will say it once, more flexibility and
00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:59.839
more creativity. I would be wary of concluding
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:03.329
you can't get that from a bigger network. I think
00:27:03.329 --> 00:27:06.549
maybe you can't get it as often as you used to.
00:27:08.930 --> 00:27:13.190
And maybe, you know, the strength of networks
00:27:13.190 --> 00:27:16.849
is not what it once was. We've seen that in Asia,
00:27:16.950 --> 00:27:19.789
right? I can remember a time when, you know,
00:27:19.809 --> 00:27:22.329
you wouldn't get fired basically for hiring the
00:27:22.329 --> 00:27:26.829
big network. I can recall people used to say
00:27:26.829 --> 00:27:32.380
that about Ogilvy PR. But, you know, those days
00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:36.319
have changed. You see so many strong domestic
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.799
firms. You see all these midsize networks. You
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:42.339
see homegrown players from places like Singapore
00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:45.160
who've built, you know, who've got offices in
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:51.880
multiple markets now. So, yeah, I think, I just
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.740
think that there's many more options now. And
00:27:54.740 --> 00:27:58.079
I think clients are far more willing to shop
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.960
around. And clients, let's segue to our next
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.579
one. Clients themselves are changing quite a
00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:10.559
lot. You wrote earlier this year about a Wall
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.859
Street Journal article, which I thought was a
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:16.819
little bit giddy in its depiction of the ascent
00:28:16.819 --> 00:28:23.339
of CCOs in the C -suite. And I think, what was
00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:26.660
it? How publicists conquered the C -suite. Was
00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:31.630
that the headline? Something like that. Anyway,
00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:33.650
we have an article that's come out this week
00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:37.450
from Fortune, really well -researched and investigated
00:28:37.450 --> 00:28:42.269
piece. I'd recommend everyone reads it. We'll
00:28:42.269 --> 00:28:44.730
put it in our newsletter as well. And it's looking
00:28:44.730 --> 00:28:47.930
at OpenAI's protracted search for a CCO, which
00:28:47.930 --> 00:28:49.569
has been going on now for nine months, which
00:28:49.569 --> 00:28:54.549
Fortune says is an eternity in comms terms. I'm
00:28:54.549 --> 00:28:59.500
inclined to agree. It is quite a long time. But
00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:02.839
the last line is really something to behold in
00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:06.339
the Fortune story. I'll read it out here. Quelling
00:29:06.339 --> 00:29:10.059
fears of human extinction is quite the job description,
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:13.299
but it will presumably be a core responsibility
00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:16.920
for OpenAI's future communications leader if
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.559
and when the company hires one. It's a very good
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:21.779
story because not only does it go into just the
00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:24.740
nuts and bolts of why OpenAI has been unable
00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:28.920
to find the right comms candidate. It also looks
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.839
at questions about the reporting line of the
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.259
candidate, which honestly is really good because
00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:37.160
you don't expect this stuff from like a generalist
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:39.920
business magazine. And then it looks at the reputation
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:43.420
problems that the AI sector is facing in general,
00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:45.539
which we've discussed at length and which are
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:47.759
becoming, you know, which just seem to get worse
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.019
every day. Right. In terms of, you know, we've
00:29:51.019 --> 00:29:53.089
seen. We've all seen these interviews of people
00:29:53.089 --> 00:29:56.369
who have left the AI companies. We see interviews
00:29:56.369 --> 00:29:59.150
of people who are still at the AI companies,
00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:02.730
and they don't necessarily help either. I mean,
00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:04.750
Fortune makes the point that this could be, you
00:30:04.750 --> 00:30:07.109
know, this is probably the biggest comms challenge
00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:10.369
in the world right now, and also a life -changing
00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:14.829
amount of money in terms of salary, which no
00:30:14.829 --> 00:30:17.109
doubt it will be, you know, if OpenAI is going
00:30:17.109 --> 00:30:20.559
to list and all of that. But yeah, they've been
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.619
unable to find their candidate. And what really
00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:25.799
struck me actually was that one of the things
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:29.299
they mentioned was because it's been going on
00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:31.680
a while, they're now starting to reconsider the
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:35.160
reporting line. So maybe the CCO should report
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:40.759
to, I think it's Sam, not Sam Altman, but his
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:45.000
partner, I think it's Greg Brockman. Or maybe,
00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:50.859
yeah, he's the president and co -founder. who's
00:30:50.859 --> 00:30:53.619
the one who's leading the hiring. So I think
00:30:53.619 --> 00:30:58.359
that was the initial thinking. But then the suggestion
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:03.720
also is that the CCO should report to the CMO,
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:10.480
which will come as, yes, not something, especially
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.700
for those of us that rejoiced when we read the
00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.839
Wall Street Journal article. This will perhaps...
00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:23.480
maybe pour some cold water on some of that. But
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:25.819
I think it's quite a realistic depiction of some
00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:28.019
of the conversations that are going on inside
00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:31.960
big companies. So, yeah, what did you make of
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:34.759
it all? Yes, well, the Wall Street Journal article
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:39.420
that came out in June, I think it was, it did
00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:45.400
seem a bit breathless, all about the ascent of
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:50.500
the CCO. And it gave some, you know, it did give
00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:54.059
some examples of where chief communications officers
00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:58.180
have risen and they're reporting directly to
00:31:58.180 --> 00:32:02.140
the CEO. And it is, you know, it's true that
00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:06.140
comms is becoming, it's, you know, seen as more
00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:11.380
strategic. But that rise is, you know, it's still
00:32:11.380 --> 00:32:14.779
unsteady and it's very patchy. I think there's
00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:21.769
real confusion. In terms of who these people
00:32:21.769 --> 00:32:25.210
should report to, as we've seen with this OpenAI
00:32:25.210 --> 00:32:30.630
story, they report to various people. Yeah, sometimes
00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:36.990
the CMO. I think in some recent research, our
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:43.150
PR 2030 research, we found just over half report
00:32:43.150 --> 00:32:50.690
to the CEO. um yeah which could be seen as good
00:32:50.690 --> 00:32:54.529
you know it depends yes exactly it's classic
00:32:54.529 --> 00:32:59.130
glass half full or half empty i i suspect most
00:32:59.130 --> 00:33:01.009
people wouldn't see it that positively given
00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:06.809
it's 2026 and i mean you still have 50 of ccos
00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:10.789
that don't report to the ceo yeah yeah but um
00:33:10.789 --> 00:33:14.910
but i mean in terms of um that that particular
00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:17.910
story about open ai i mean obviously ai companies
00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:21.049
uh can function as somebody in the article made
00:33:21.049 --> 00:33:23.789
the point uh you know open ai can function perfectly
00:33:23.789 --> 00:33:28.250
well without um a chief communications officer
00:33:28.250 --> 00:33:31.349
uh it's not going to stop what it's doing uh
00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:35.710
but um ai companies are especially prone to crises
00:33:35.710 --> 00:33:40.670
and issues um plus um it's not just about fighting
00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:44.319
fires but there's just this shadow of negativity
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:49.299
around AI which is it just seems to always be
00:33:49.299 --> 00:33:54.460
there you know as as you said you know fear of
00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:59.039
extinction you know it's not a lot of cheery
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.680
thought so there's a lot for anyone in that role
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.339
to do and you would imagine that there are lots
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:08.219
of people out there who would be up for the challenge
00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:13.739
so I don't know whether it's a case of OpenAI
00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:17.800
just not finding someone with the right capabilities?
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:21.239
Or if really people are just too afraid to take
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.219
on that challenge? I don't know. Yeah, it's hard
00:34:24.219 --> 00:34:26.760
to say. I think it's probably a combination of
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.599
both. I mean, the article does point out that
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:31.719
the first choice for the role was Jill Hazelbaker,
00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:36.699
who is a very well -known name in the comms world
00:34:36.699 --> 00:34:42.449
and is considered one of the top operators. um
00:34:42.449 --> 00:34:49.010
works at uber um there's a great quote actually
00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.329
i'm going to try and find it in the story about
00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:57.130
chill from a from a friend no a source familiar
00:34:57.130 --> 00:35:03.110
with the search um oh no no those who know her
00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:05.389
list a few reasons she may have turned it down
00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:07.690
i love the sourcing here i always love it where
00:35:07.690 --> 00:35:13.420
it's Someone who knows someone. And as reporters,
00:35:13.579 --> 00:35:15.280
you always wonder, is that the person themselves?
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:19.019
Is it someone else? Anyway, the quote is, Jill
00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:21.659
is absolutely fantastic, said another source
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:25.119
who has spoken directly with OpenAI about the
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:27.480
position and who commented on the likely reasons
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.440
the company has not been able to hire her. She's
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:32.920
very mature. She has an awesome relationship
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:38.250
with Dara, the Uber CEO. this is my favorite
00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:45.889
she makes a fuckload of money also she lives
00:35:45.889 --> 00:35:48.150
on the east coast and has a family it's really
00:35:48.150 --> 00:35:50.969
hard to get her because she lives in dc and she's
00:35:50.969 --> 00:35:56.190
not going to move all good reasons and um i certainly
00:35:56.190 --> 00:35:58.929
think given where she's at and probably what
00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:03.230
she's seen at uber you can maybe understand Maybe
00:36:03.230 --> 00:36:07.489
not wanting to go back into the absolute hottest
00:36:07.489 --> 00:36:14.230
furnace around at the moment. The reputation
00:36:14.230 --> 00:36:18.809
issues facing AI, as you described, a shadow,
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:21.730
they're not going to go away. It looks like they're
00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:23.809
going to get worse. We have so many questions
00:36:23.809 --> 00:36:28.590
now about data centers as well. Absolutely. OpenAI
00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:31.409
wants to list, so that's going to, you know,
00:36:31.409 --> 00:36:36.119
that just... kind of elevates all of these concerns
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:41.840
as a material risk. So you sort of think they
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.480
need to find someone sooner rather than later,
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:49.980
but yeah, they have quite a big team and they
00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:52.519
seem to be doing, as the article suggests, maybe
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:55.539
a better job. But yeah, it's a good example,
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:58.139
I think, of some of the forces we're seeing more
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:02.010
broadly across the industry. It's still... i
00:37:02.010 --> 00:37:04.469
think a bit difficult for the comms function
00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:09.309
to always effectively demonstrate where it should
00:37:09.309 --> 00:37:12.650
sit to whom it should report uh the value it
00:37:12.650 --> 00:37:16.710
brings um i was at a thing last week where someone
00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:20.530
asked you know is the fact that people still
00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:25.010
ask the fact that uh tesla doesn't have a comms
00:37:25.010 --> 00:37:27.949
head or elon musk doesn't have a comms head is
00:37:27.949 --> 00:37:32.360
that is that evidence that comms heads are not
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:37.840
needed um which you know i think is kind of a
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.960
ridiculous question but if people are asking
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:46.619
it it's not that ridiculous so um so yeah it's
00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:49.219
an interesting one to watch and i just hope for
00:37:49.219 --> 00:37:52.059
the reporter's sake um they don't hire someone
00:37:52.059 --> 00:37:54.059
next week because that's always what you worry
00:37:54.059 --> 00:37:58.940
about with these kinds of stories as well um
00:37:58.940 --> 00:38:02.440
but yeah good story Worth reading. And on that
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:07.079
note, I think perhaps we will end this podcast.
00:38:07.940 --> 00:38:11.340
So what have we got to say? We've got Praxis
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:13.920
India. That will have happened by the time this
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.079
episode comes out this weekend. We've got Praxis
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:21.099
Asia Pacific in Singapore in two weeks. So if
00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:24.500
you're listening and you're in Singapore or you'd
00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:27.139
like to travel to Singapore. please come to the
00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:29.639
national gallery on 7th of october we have a
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:35.380
great lineup um and yeah we have lots of research
00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:39.119
and all the usual stuff on our website um so
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.639
thanks david for your time today and um thank
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.079
you big thanks as always to our production partners
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:46.880
at earshot media