WEBVTT
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Hello everyone, and welcome to the Earned First
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podcast. This is Arun Sudarman, founding editor
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at Earned First, and I'm joined today by Adam
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Harper, who's the founder and CEO of Ashbury,
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joining us from London, but you live in Asia.
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Welcome, Adam. It's great to be here. Thanks,
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Arun. Yes, so you are on the road, I believe,
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but you have found... you found quite a nice
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space to do this podcast so thank you for that
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it's no it's a pleasure it's a reasonably quiet
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spot in a in a hotel lobby so hopefully you can
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hear me all right and it's uh you don't get the
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music in the background well maybe it'll help
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who knows so you and are usually based in well
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singapore ashbury is headquartered in hong kong
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if i'm not mistaken Yes, so I've been in Asia
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since 2004. Feels like just yesterday to me.
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And I've been living in Singapore for the last
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three and a half years. I'm not sure Ashby really
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has a headquarters, but we're definitely from
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and of Asia. Absolutely. And one of the things
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that has happened in the last... I guess it's
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over the last 12 to 18 months, is your expansion
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into the Gulf, into the Middle East. So what
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does that look like for you? Because obviously
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we have the Praxis Mina event taking place in
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Abu Dhabi next week, and you will be attending
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along with, I think we're closing in on around
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200 attendees. So what has been Ashbury's thinking
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in terms of its Middle East expansion? Yeah,
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so I had a very long hiatus with the Gulf. I
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actually went to Dubai and to the Gulf on my
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first ever international business trip back when
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I was a graduate trainee in London. This would
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have been in 2002. I remember going to Dubai,
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thinking it was very impressive, and then I moved
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to Asia, and I didn't go back to the UAE for
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over 20 years. I went to do a pitch there with
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a client that we already knew. in 2023 um and
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i was just blown away i was uh so impressed by
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the energy the optimism the concentration of
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talent and capital that was obviously coming
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together there and also we could really see from
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our clients we could we could hear from our clients
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how important the connectivity between Asia and
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the Middle East was becoming strategically for
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them. So we made a very quick decision after
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that to set up a presence there. Our whole strategy
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is to try and be relevant to clients, to be where
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they want us to be, doing what they need us to
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do. So we set up there in 2024. We put a couple
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of people in, which we are going to add to as
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time goes by. and to begin with you know it was
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really a case of um trying to extend existing
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relationships that we had so you know relationships
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with global financial institutions mainly um
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that we were already serving in asia and taking
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those into the middle east and in parallel with
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that we really worked on trying to get to know
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the local players as well and we have some good
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momentum um some good traction now with both
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of those groups and you know requires a lot of
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commitment a lot of consistency but i'm excited
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about the direction that it's taking it's interesting
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that you mentioned the connectivity that's something
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that i think is quite prominent in terms of the
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gulf's appeal as a communications market but
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also i suppose as a as a sort of financial crossroads
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these days particularly given the kind of geopolitical
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issues that we're seeing all around the world.
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But let's start with the financial perspective.
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How do you see, and we talk about the Gulf, but
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often we're talking about the UAE and perhaps
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Saudi Arabia, maybe Doha. How do you see these
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markets in terms of their importance to financial
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services? You know, the Gulf and Asia are two
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parts of the world that have enormous pools of
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capital, so to speak. So in the Middle East,
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everybody's very familiar with sovereign wealth
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funds and the very big pools of public capital,
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if you like, that are there. There's also a lot
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of private wealth. And clearly, Asia has enormous
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private wealth that is growing faster than anywhere
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else in the world. But the historic pattern has
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been that that wealth gets invested outside of
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those regions. The savings, the accumulation
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of capital happens in those places, and then
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it gets invested elsewhere, typically in the
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developed world, in the US and in Europe. I think
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what we're beginning to see, and this relates
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to what's going on geopolitically, is that countries
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in the Gulf, countries in Asia too, to a great
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extent, realize that... um to secure their future
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they're going to have to diversify economically
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and that's going to require a lot of capital
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and investment um so they are looking very actively
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at how they can ensure that you know more capital
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from within those regions gets invested in those
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regions whilst obviously making sure that they
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get a decent return on their investment because
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that's that's very important to them as well
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and i think that is a big factor in the the growing
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kind of power and momentum of the UAE in particular
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as a financial center. You know, it's benefiting
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from a need from investors from that region and
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perhaps from around the world as well to diversify.
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I would say that the two big thematics in markets
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and investing at the moment, the words that we
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hear all the time are diversification. We're
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in a world that's going through structural change.
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People want to diversify and reduce their risk.
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And the de -dollarization theme is really gaining
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momentum in conversations as well. The U .S.
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has enormous markets and enormous economy. Nobody
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is going to simply move out of the U .S. anytime
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soon. But people are looking at alternatives
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that... give them exposure to other markets and
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other currencies. So at a very macro level, I
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think the UAE is a big beneficiary of that. Clearly,
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you know, over the last decade, you have to remember,
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you know, it's a young country. Over the decades,
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they've built a lot of trust. You know, people
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from literally all parts of the world have confidence
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in the system there and the laws and the regulation.
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And in recent years, I think particularly since
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COVID, which they were seen to handle very well,
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it's gained this another level of momentum. It's
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real kind of self -sustaining momentum where
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a critical mass has been reached. And now, you
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know, it's sort of a snowball rolling downhill.
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Which sounds appealing. And we've seen many firms
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like yours expanding to the region. We've seen
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pretty good growth as well amongst communications
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consultancies. It seems like one of the bright
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spots globally. But do you think perhaps people
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are missing something in terms of this narrative?
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Is it always that optimistic? I think it depends
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how you look at it. From a communications practitioner's
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point of view, it's a market that has a real
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breadth of approaches. It's fair to say. So I
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would say that there is world -class insight
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and data -driven, highly creative communications
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going on in the UAE and in the GCC. It's also
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fair to say that there is, at the other end of
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the spectrum, a fair amount of you know much
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more foundational er that's going on there so
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from a disciplined perspective it's a very broad
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picture um from a narrative perspective i mean
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you know if you look at dubai in particular um
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you know dubai depends on its power to attract
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um dubai does not really have natural resources
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um so it depends on you know its ability to kind
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of build and maintain trust and attract people
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to to bring their capital there to buy property
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there to to engage in financial activity there
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uh and it's you know it's it's a fact that dubai
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has been through cycles over the years so i think
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that's that's the risk to dubai is you know that
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potentially there's some kind of overheating
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in the future But the cycle always comes back.
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And I do think that the fundamentals of what
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the UAE has to offer as a value proposition to
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entrepreneurs and investors is very robust. So
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as long as that trust is upheld on both sides,
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it's a very bright future. And how do you see
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the UAE's position or positioning changing given,
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you know, all the things we hear in terms of
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geopolitics, in terms of the, you know, potential
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trade wars and so forth between the US and China.
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How has that helped the UAE and what does that
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mean from a communications perspective? Yeah,
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from a communications perspective, I think this
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is a really interesting opportunity. As an opportunity,
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it's about communicators helping to tell the
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story of these changing patterns in the financial
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world, these changes to the financial architecture
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potentially, but doing so in a way that navigates
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a lot of sensitivities. in different countries,
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naturally very sensitive about their place in
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the financial and economic order. So the UAE
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obviously is neutral, has a long -standing neutrality.
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It's friendly with basically all countries. So
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it's a very open opportunity in that respect.
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I think that for us in what we do, we can work
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with some of the best and brightest people in
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finance who are thinking about what comes next.
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What happens if the dollar is relatively less
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used in international finance? as global investors
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diversify and want to allocate to other regions
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more outside the us because these are things
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that we haven't seen in our lifetime you know
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our whole careers you know that the us has had
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that um unquestioned dominant position and it's
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it's still very dominant i don't want you know
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to give the impression that any of this is going
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to change overnight but a a gradual shift is
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is is definitely underway uh and that is uh you
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know it's a almost a blank canvas for communicators
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and something that i think is very exciting what
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else is exciting is that you know we're at a
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point now where um technology is answering questions
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that um you know communicators have had for years
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so you know we've always wanted to know what
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is relevant to our audiences and in the past
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you know you could do a survey that might be
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quite time consuming and expensive. You could
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get kind of anecdotal insights into that. The
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ability of AI just to go and process vast amounts
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of data now and give you a quantitative read
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on relevance, I think is super useful. You know,
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we're very active in doing that through our partnership
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with inference clouds. There are also some really
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neat tools emerging that allow you to kind of
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get insights into discoverability. So I know
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what might be relevant to a particular audience
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group, but how am I showing up in their in their
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world, especially when they're engaged in AI
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search. So on the one hand, we've got these incredibly
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powerful tools that we have not had in the past,
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allowing us to be a lot more empirical in the
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way that we do strategy. At the same time, the
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ability to be newsworthy and to be relatable,
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which are fundamentally human skills that have
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to do with emotional resonance and contextual
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awareness. um are never more important because
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there's so much content out there that what is
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sort of most relatable and most newsworthy is
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going to to achieve the greatest traction so
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i i feel like you know it's um it's almost uh
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looking out at a new horizon where on the one
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hand you've got tools that allow you to do things
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you've never been able to do before and on the
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other hand you know at least in the financial
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world there's a narrative opportunity that is
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much more open and contested than it ever has
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been. Yeah, it's interesting. Now, I know you're
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quite focused on the financial world, but do
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you think there's a risk that when it comes to
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the UAE, it is viewed largely in economic terms?
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And do you think that perhaps its positioning,
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its brand needs to be more than just that? Yeah,
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it's a really interesting question, Arun. So
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I was out in Abu Dhabi in December, and Abu Dhabi
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was holding two really big events in parallel
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that week. So there was Abu Dhabi Finance Week,
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which has become a must -attend event for CEOs
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and leaders in the financial world. It's a huge
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gathering. It's an amazing event. And that's,
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you know, it's a fixture in my calendar for sure.
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But at the same time, Abu Dhabi was hosting an
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event called the Bridge Summit. I don't know
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if you came across this. Bridge was all about
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media and the creator economy and, you know,
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the advertising ecosystem, the social media ecosystem.
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So tremendously diverse, you know, all the big
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social platforms were there. news organizations,
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you know, firms from the creator economy, investors.
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And I thought it was super interesting. You know,
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I've spent some time there, very, very diverse.
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And I was trying to think, what is connecting
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this? What is sort of bringing this together?
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And my hypothesis in the end was that what the
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UAE was doing there was understanding that influence
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and trust and support Yes, being a huge financial
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power, commanding the amount of capital that
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they do, that gives them a lot of influence and
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a lot of legitimacy. But being a player in the
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media and content ecosystem, having a presence
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in that world is also really important to building
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trust. And my interpretation... Obviously, I
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can't say what their intention was. I don't know.
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But it looked like the intention there was to
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build trust and build influence through the media
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industry as well as finance. And that seems very
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smart to me. Oh, it is, clearly. I mean, I think
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one will be harder than the other, but it's the
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:04.900
right idea. No question. We've seen... We've
00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:07.740
seen the return of hard power. Well, let's not
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.900
say the return. Hard power never went away. But
00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:18.240
we've seen it become wielded perhaps more visibly
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.420
than it once was. Do you think there's still
00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:25.779
a role for the kind of soft power that places
00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:32.119
like the UAE espouse? Yeah, 100%. I think...
00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:36.599
The ability to attract is, you know, that's really
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.700
the definition of soft power. And the UAE has
00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:45.799
that in abundance. And I mean, you know, it's
00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.839
also strategically important to other powers
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.099
for a lot of different reasons. But I think it's
00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:58.099
easy to lose sight in a world where hard power
00:17:58.099 --> 00:18:00.910
is being... projected more frequently of of the
00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:05.329
power of attraction and and influence um but
00:18:05.329 --> 00:18:10.910
yeah it's it's very real um and i think you know
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:15.269
i i think it's really important in in the geopolitical
00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:17.109
landscape that we're in now i mean you know you
00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:20.950
were in davos you no doubt heard mark kearney's
00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:28.019
speech you know there is i think emerging groups
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.619
or a group of countries, probably multiple groups,
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:36.900
who want to trade, who want to invest with each
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:42.240
other, who want to maintain some kind of rules
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.380
-based system or rules -based systems, maybe
00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.599
overlapping circles of those. And in that context,
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.039
if you want to be successful in building those
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.319
kind of networks, trust and attraction are really
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.420
important. you know hard power in many ways is
00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:02.859
a is a luxury of very large countries um they're
00:19:02.859 --> 00:19:06.059
really yeah you know the only ones that can project
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:10.539
in that way most of the time anyway um i think
00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:13.599
soft power and and influence and attraction are
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:18.359
the best asset in many best international asset
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:24.339
that many many countries have so stability reliability
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:28.980
these kinds of qualities become more important
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:33.599
to that story, presumably. Yes, yes, exactly.
00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.900
Consistency. I mean, you know, I think Singapore
00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.980
has done very well in this respect over the decades.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.880
People know what they can expect. It's very transparent
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.740
and it's very consistent. And that just creates
00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:52.180
trust. People feel comfortable doing business.
00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:57.670
Yeah, sure. And when you're dealing with, let's
00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:02.490
say, private sector clients or even, you know,
00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:08.869
quasi public sector organizations, how important
00:20:08.869 --> 00:20:13.289
is it to tell that broader story as well, in
00:20:13.289 --> 00:20:16.690
addition to, you know, the organizational narrative?
00:20:18.049 --> 00:20:21.329
You know, I think if you look at... the markets
00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:24.670
that we operate in at the moment in Asia and
00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:29.509
the Middle East. You could argue that this is
00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:32.809
increasingly a feature beyond those regions,
00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:37.650
but there's often a very clear national strategy,
00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:41.009
set of policy priorities. So everybody knows
00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.130
about the economic diversification strategies
00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:47.750
in the Middle East. Countries across Asia have
00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:50.740
got their... goals and priorities and national
00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:54.599
national strategies and so i think you know certainly
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.339
for public sector and clients from those countries
00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:01.299
showing alignment to that showing how what that
00:21:01.299 --> 00:21:04.519
organization does connects with that that broader
00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:09.400
purpose is is often very important um and i think
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.359
that especially foreign private sector organizations
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.920
and i'm talking about the financial sector here
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.059
you know when they come into a market um it makes
00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:23.299
sense for them reputationally to to show how
00:21:23.299 --> 00:21:25.640
they also align with with that set of national
00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.480
priorities so to answer your question i think
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.440
it's you know it's very important it's a big
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.240
part of reputation building um for public sector
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:41.960
or private sector financial sector firms and
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.000
to take To take this question to its logical
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.180
conclusion, I guess I have to ask, what happens
00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:52.299
then when those national interests compete with,
00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:56.579
for example, your home country's national interests?
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.799
That's when you need a good communications advisor.
00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:10.200
Indeed. But it's a reality. That's our world.
00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:14.119
That is the complexity of our world writ large.
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:25.740
And I think it's very important here, if you're
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.660
a domestic firm, you don't have to worry about
00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:33.200
these kind of competing claims. You align with
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.660
your country. If you're an international firm,
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.160
especially one that operates in a lot of markets,
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.779
That's where the careful judgment comes in. And
00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:51.420
my instinct would be, you know, it's always better
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:55.740
to err towards, you know, focusing on how you
00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:59.779
help your clients and being commercial. There
00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:03.220
will be... There are things that you are expected
00:23:03.220 --> 00:23:05.519
to do as a financial institution that operates
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.460
in a given country. And I think that's the case
00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:11.059
everywhere. You have responsibilities to stakeholders.
00:23:12.259 --> 00:23:16.059
But beyond that, I think the best way to manage
00:23:16.059 --> 00:23:19.339
that risk of competing claims is to stay very
00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:22.140
commercial and to stay focused on your clients
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:24.559
and how you're helping them and what you offer
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:30.579
to them. Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I think
00:23:30.579 --> 00:23:34.259
we will see many examples of this emerging over
00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:38.940
the next few years. For sure. So before I leave
00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:41.740
you, tell us a little bit more about Ashbury
00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:44.700
these days. I know you are, as you said, you're
00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:47.500
in the Gulf. You're obviously very active in
00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:54.619
Asia. What comes next? Yeah. So Ashbury is six
00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:59.140
years old. you know moment of lunacy i thought
00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:00.740
it would be a good idea to start a communications
00:24:00.740 --> 00:24:02.960
consultancy um right at the beginning of the
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:09.059
pandemic um it's uh it's been an amazing experience
00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:10.799
i have to say i've had the time of my life i
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:14.079
am having the time of my life um doing this it's
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:19.299
just so interesting and rewarding uh we are very
00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:21.440
fortunate in that you know we've got to work
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.579
with some incredible clients who've really placed
00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:26.660
their trust in us and you know grown their relationships
00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:29.940
with us over time uh and we're now in a position
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:34.240
where you know i think in the last year or so
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.960
perhaps we broke through in a sense um and i
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.480
started to to realize that we were getting access
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.599
to the kind of opportunities that we hadn't had
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.579
before we were winning in competitive situations
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.859
you know rfp situations where we might not have
00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.819
done before and it became clear that we were
00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:56.460
starting to be seen a little bit differently
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:00.140
and i think that that sort of marks the transition
00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:02.900
from perhaps a startup in the true sense of the
00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:07.819
word to being more of an upstart um but it puts
00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:09.900
us in a position where you know i think we have
00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:13.960
a great opportunity to try and scale up our business
00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:18.690
And to me, the guiding principle in that is the
00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:21.609
same as it's always been. We want to be relevant.
00:25:22.309 --> 00:25:26.970
That's why we have the rather distinctive combination
00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:32.250
of advisory, PR and content work, which I don't
00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:34.289
see very widely in the market, but our clients
00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:38.450
really love that integration. It's why we focus
00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:40.509
very much on the financial sector at present
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:43.910
is because... i know that the clients value that
00:25:43.910 --> 00:25:47.829
sort of expertise and specialization so where
00:25:47.829 --> 00:25:50.670
we go from here is is really about filling gaps
00:25:50.670 --> 00:25:54.809
um you know you look at what clients need um
00:25:54.809 --> 00:25:59.089
you know we're meeting um a decent cross -section
00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:01.170
of those needs but not all of them you know we're
00:26:01.170 --> 00:26:03.869
not in in every place that they might want us
00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:07.029
to be uh we're not offering every solution that
00:26:07.029 --> 00:26:10.569
they might want so this year is really about
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.640
It's about making targeted investments in the
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.319
capabilities and the geographies that we need
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:21.599
to go on to the next level and really scale this
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.759
business. So it's tremendously exciting. The
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.500
market seems solid for the time being. The demand
00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:36.119
is robust. In spite of all the volatility in
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.279
the markets, the constant shifts in geopolitics,
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:43.019
the financial sector is doing quite well you
00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:45.920
look at bank results recently markets are good
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.180
uh and for as long as that that holds true you
00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:52.420
know we'll have a kind of supportive tailwind
00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:55.299
uh and it's up to us how we make the most of
00:26:55.299 --> 00:27:02.380
that sounds like fun um i'm glad to hear you're
00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:05.400
enjoying it because i do remember when you launched
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:11.029
it it was a crazy period um it was Yes. Well,
00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:15.490
thank you for all your support along the way.
00:27:15.529 --> 00:27:20.710
I really appreciate it. You've kind of seen the
00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:26.049
process. Indeed. Yeah. No, it's been really interesting
00:27:26.049 --> 00:27:30.829
watching Ashbury grow. And I look forward to
00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:35.390
seeing you at Praxis Mina next week. Safe travels.
00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:37.829
And thank you so much for your time today, Adam.
00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:40.839
Absolute pleasure. Looking forward to the event.
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.359
Always great to go to the events that you're
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.180
involved with and looking forward to meeting
00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:46.920
lots of people there.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.720
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Earned First
00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:07.240
podcast. This is Arun Sudarman, founding editor
00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:10.240
at Earned First, and I'm joined today by Adam
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.800
Harper, who's the founder and CEO of Ashbury,
00:00:13.939 --> 00:00:17.320
joining us from London, but you live in Asia.
00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:21.160
Welcome, Adam. It's great to be here. Thanks,
00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:26.399
Arun. Yes, so you are on the road, I believe,
00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:29.210
but you have found... you found quite a nice
00:00:29.210 --> 00:00:32.070
space to do this podcast so thank you for that
00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:36.130
it's no it's a pleasure it's a reasonably quiet
00:00:36.130 --> 00:00:40.649
spot in a in a hotel lobby so hopefully you can
00:00:40.649 --> 00:00:42.509
hear me all right and it's uh you don't get the
00:00:42.509 --> 00:00:46.229
music in the background well maybe it'll help
00:00:46.229 --> 00:00:50.729
who knows so you and are usually based in well
00:00:50.729 --> 00:00:54.509
singapore ashbury is headquartered in hong kong
00:00:54.509 --> 00:01:00.520
if i'm not mistaken Yes, so I've been in Asia
00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:05.700
since 2004. Feels like just yesterday to me.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.780
And I've been living in Singapore for the last
00:01:08.780 --> 00:01:11.859
three and a half years. I'm not sure Ashby really
00:01:11.859 --> 00:01:14.620
has a headquarters, but we're definitely from
00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:19.260
and of Asia. Absolutely. And one of the things
00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:24.180
that has happened in the last... I guess it's
00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:26.260
over the last 12 to 18 months, is your expansion
00:01:26.260 --> 00:01:31.760
into the Gulf, into the Middle East. So what
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.159
does that look like for you? Because obviously
00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.459
we have the Praxis Mina event taking place in
00:01:37.459 --> 00:01:40.120
Abu Dhabi next week, and you will be attending
00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:42.640
along with, I think we're closing in on around
00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:48.780
200 attendees. So what has been Ashbury's thinking
00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:52.870
in terms of its Middle East expansion? Yeah,
00:01:52.870 --> 00:01:57.269
so I had a very long hiatus with the Gulf. I
00:01:57.269 --> 00:02:00.450
actually went to Dubai and to the Gulf on my
00:02:00.450 --> 00:02:03.650
first ever international business trip back when
00:02:03.650 --> 00:02:06.530
I was a graduate trainee in London. This would
00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:10.569
have been in 2002. I remember going to Dubai,
00:02:10.770 --> 00:02:13.009
thinking it was very impressive, and then I moved
00:02:13.009 --> 00:02:16.550
to Asia, and I didn't go back to the UAE for
00:02:16.550 --> 00:02:19.389
over 20 years. I went to do a pitch there with
00:02:19.389 --> 00:02:24.060
a client that we already knew. in 2023 um and
00:02:24.060 --> 00:02:28.379
i was just blown away i was uh so impressed by
00:02:28.379 --> 00:02:32.840
the energy the optimism the concentration of
00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.340
talent and capital that was obviously coming
00:02:35.340 --> 00:02:39.139
together there and also we could really see from
00:02:39.139 --> 00:02:41.139
our clients we could we could hear from our clients
00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.560
how important the connectivity between Asia and
00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:46.699
the Middle East was becoming strategically for
00:02:46.699 --> 00:02:50.180
them. So we made a very quick decision after
00:02:50.180 --> 00:02:53.580
that to set up a presence there. Our whole strategy
00:02:53.580 --> 00:02:56.900
is to try and be relevant to clients, to be where
00:02:56.900 --> 00:02:59.099
they want us to be, doing what they need us to
00:02:59.099 --> 00:03:05.919
do. So we set up there in 2024. We put a couple
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.379
of people in, which we are going to add to as
00:03:09.379 --> 00:03:12.819
time goes by. and to begin with you know it was
00:03:12.819 --> 00:03:16.900
really a case of um trying to extend existing
00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:19.259
relationships that we had so you know relationships
00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:22.719
with global financial institutions mainly um
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.680
that we were already serving in asia and taking
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:28.319
those into the middle east and in parallel with
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:30.599
that we really worked on trying to get to know
00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:33.780
the local players as well and we have some good
00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:36.919
momentum um some good traction now with both
00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.169
of those groups and you know requires a lot of
00:03:40.169 --> 00:03:42.509
commitment a lot of consistency but i'm excited
00:03:42.509 --> 00:03:47.189
about the direction that it's taking it's interesting
00:03:47.189 --> 00:03:49.669
that you mentioned the connectivity that's something
00:03:49.669 --> 00:03:55.250
that i think is quite prominent in terms of the
00:03:55.250 --> 00:03:57.810
gulf's appeal as a communications market but
00:03:57.810 --> 00:04:02.289
also i suppose as a as a sort of financial crossroads
00:04:02.289 --> 00:04:07.050
these days particularly given the kind of geopolitical
00:04:07.939 --> 00:04:10.080
issues that we're seeing all around the world.
00:04:10.979 --> 00:04:14.139
But let's start with the financial perspective.
00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:17.279
How do you see, and we talk about the Gulf, but
00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.160
often we're talking about the UAE and perhaps
00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.540
Saudi Arabia, maybe Doha. How do you see these
00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:27.079
markets in terms of their importance to financial
00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:40.740
services? You know, the Gulf and Asia are two
00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:44.620
parts of the world that have enormous pools of
00:04:44.620 --> 00:04:47.480
capital, so to speak. So in the Middle East,
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.360
everybody's very familiar with sovereign wealth
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.279
funds and the very big pools of public capital,
00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.399
if you like, that are there. There's also a lot
00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.220
of private wealth. And clearly, Asia has enormous
00:04:57.220 --> 00:04:59.579
private wealth that is growing faster than anywhere
00:04:59.579 --> 00:05:03.220
else in the world. But the historic pattern has
00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:07.290
been that that wealth gets invested outside of
00:05:07.290 --> 00:05:09.790
those regions. The savings, the accumulation
00:05:09.790 --> 00:05:11.949
of capital happens in those places, and then
00:05:11.949 --> 00:05:14.730
it gets invested elsewhere, typically in the
00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:18.850
developed world, in the US and in Europe. I think
00:05:18.850 --> 00:05:22.709
what we're beginning to see, and this relates
00:05:22.709 --> 00:05:28.350
to what's going on geopolitically, is that countries
00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:30.970
in the Gulf, countries in Asia too, to a great
00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:35.180
extent, realize that... um to secure their future
00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:37.779
they're going to have to diversify economically
00:05:37.779 --> 00:05:40.360
and that's going to require a lot of capital
00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:45.259
and investment um so they are looking very actively
00:05:45.259 --> 00:05:47.439
at how they can ensure that you know more capital
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.420
from within those regions gets invested in those
00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:52.959
regions whilst obviously making sure that they
00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.980
get a decent return on their investment because
00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:56.600
that's that's very important to them as well
00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:01.480
and i think that is a big factor in the the growing
00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.610
kind of power and momentum of the UAE in particular
00:06:05.610 --> 00:06:09.189
as a financial center. You know, it's benefiting
00:06:09.189 --> 00:06:14.350
from a need from investors from that region and
00:06:14.350 --> 00:06:16.949
perhaps from around the world as well to diversify.
00:06:17.189 --> 00:06:21.350
I would say that the two big thematics in markets
00:06:21.350 --> 00:06:23.430
and investing at the moment, the words that we
00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:27.839
hear all the time are diversification. We're
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:29.800
in a world that's going through structural change.
00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:32.259
People want to diversify and reduce their risk.
00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:38.279
And the de -dollarization theme is really gaining
00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:42.259
momentum in conversations as well. The U .S.
00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:44.459
has enormous markets and enormous economy. Nobody
00:06:44.459 --> 00:06:47.899
is going to simply move out of the U .S. anytime
00:06:47.899 --> 00:06:50.699
soon. But people are looking at alternatives
00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:53.529
that... give them exposure to other markets and
00:06:53.529 --> 00:06:56.329
other currencies. So at a very macro level, I
00:06:56.329 --> 00:07:00.449
think the UAE is a big beneficiary of that. Clearly,
00:07:00.589 --> 00:07:03.569
you know, over the last decade, you have to remember,
00:07:03.750 --> 00:07:07.569
you know, it's a young country. Over the decades,
00:07:08.029 --> 00:07:11.430
they've built a lot of trust. You know, people
00:07:11.430 --> 00:07:14.470
from literally all parts of the world have confidence
00:07:14.470 --> 00:07:16.889
in the system there and the laws and the regulation.
00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:20.600
And in recent years, I think particularly since
00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:23.540
COVID, which they were seen to handle very well,
00:07:23.860 --> 00:07:28.740
it's gained this another level of momentum. It's
00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:30.779
real kind of self -sustaining momentum where
00:07:30.779 --> 00:07:34.740
a critical mass has been reached. And now, you
00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:38.139
know, it's sort of a snowball rolling downhill.
00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:47.410
Which sounds appealing. And we've seen many firms
00:07:47.410 --> 00:07:51.410
like yours expanding to the region. We've seen
00:07:51.410 --> 00:07:55.850
pretty good growth as well amongst communications
00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:58.750
consultancies. It seems like one of the bright
00:07:58.750 --> 00:08:00.589
spots globally. But do you think perhaps people
00:08:00.589 --> 00:08:03.089
are missing something in terms of this narrative?
00:08:04.550 --> 00:08:11.649
Is it always that optimistic? I think it depends
00:08:11.649 --> 00:08:18.980
how you look at it. From a communications practitioner's
00:08:18.980 --> 00:08:23.560
point of view, it's a market that has a real
00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:27.779
breadth of approaches. It's fair to say. So I
00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:31.899
would say that there is world -class insight
00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:35.720
and data -driven, highly creative communications
00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.860
going on in the UAE and in the GCC. It's also
00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:43.179
fair to say that there is, at the other end of
00:08:43.179 --> 00:08:46.580
the spectrum, a fair amount of you know much
00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:49.980
more foundational er that's going on there so
00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:54.679
from a disciplined perspective it's a very broad
00:08:54.679 --> 00:09:00.940
picture um from a narrative perspective i mean
00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:04.899
you know if you look at dubai in particular um
00:09:04.899 --> 00:09:08.639
you know dubai depends on its power to attract
00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.769
um dubai does not really have natural resources
00:09:12.769 --> 00:09:17.250
um so it depends on you know its ability to kind
00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:19.429
of build and maintain trust and attract people
00:09:19.429 --> 00:09:21.590
to to bring their capital there to buy property
00:09:21.590 --> 00:09:24.169
there to to engage in financial activity there
00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:27.730
uh and it's you know it's it's a fact that dubai
00:09:27.730 --> 00:09:30.929
has been through cycles over the years so i think
00:09:30.929 --> 00:09:33.529
that's that's the risk to dubai is you know that
00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:35.889
potentially there's some kind of overheating
00:09:35.889 --> 00:09:39.389
in the future But the cycle always comes back.
00:09:39.669 --> 00:09:43.429
And I do think that the fundamentals of what
00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:47.029
the UAE has to offer as a value proposition to
00:09:47.029 --> 00:09:51.769
entrepreneurs and investors is very robust. So
00:09:51.769 --> 00:09:56.169
as long as that trust is upheld on both sides,
00:09:56.370 --> 00:10:02.870
it's a very bright future. And how do you see
00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:08.549
the UAE's position or positioning changing given,
00:10:08.710 --> 00:10:11.830
you know, all the things we hear in terms of
00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:16.830
geopolitics, in terms of the, you know, potential
00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:21.210
trade wars and so forth between the US and China.
00:10:21.950 --> 00:10:25.009
How has that helped the UAE and what does that
00:10:25.009 --> 00:10:29.809
mean from a communications perspective? Yeah,
00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:33.710
from a communications perspective, I think this
00:10:33.710 --> 00:10:44.779
is a really interesting opportunity. As an opportunity,
00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.440
it's about communicators helping to tell the
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:54.120
story of these changing patterns in the financial
00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.360
world, these changes to the financial architecture
00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.440
potentially, but doing so in a way that navigates
00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.539
a lot of sensitivities. in different countries,
00:11:04.580 --> 00:11:08.259
naturally very sensitive about their place in
00:11:08.259 --> 00:11:11.799
the financial and economic order. So the UAE
00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:16.480
obviously is neutral, has a long -standing neutrality.
00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:21.940
It's friendly with basically all countries. So
00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:27.100
it's a very open opportunity in that respect.
00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:36.149
I think that for us in what we do, we can work
00:11:36.149 --> 00:11:37.669
with some of the best and brightest people in
00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:40.090
finance who are thinking about what comes next.
00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:45.690
What happens if the dollar is relatively less
00:11:45.690 --> 00:11:51.129
used in international finance? as global investors
00:11:51.129 --> 00:11:54.490
diversify and want to allocate to other regions
00:11:54.490 --> 00:11:57.889
more outside the us because these are things
00:11:57.889 --> 00:11:59.909
that we haven't seen in our lifetime you know
00:11:59.909 --> 00:12:02.809
our whole careers you know that the us has had
00:12:02.809 --> 00:12:06.870
that um unquestioned dominant position and it's
00:12:06.870 --> 00:12:08.590
it's still very dominant i don't want you know
00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:10.370
to give the impression that any of this is going
00:12:10.370 --> 00:12:14.129
to change overnight but a a gradual shift is
00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:18.490
is is definitely underway uh and that is uh you
00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:21.659
know it's a almost a blank canvas for communicators
00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:24.779
and something that i think is very exciting what
00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:29.059
else is exciting is that you know we're at a
00:12:29.059 --> 00:12:35.039
point now where um technology is answering questions
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.059
that um you know communicators have had for years
00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:43.240
so you know we've always wanted to know what
00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.139
is relevant to our audiences and in the past
00:12:46.139 --> 00:12:47.919
you know you could do a survey that might be
00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:51.100
quite time consuming and expensive. You could
00:12:51.100 --> 00:12:53.779
get kind of anecdotal insights into that. The
00:12:53.779 --> 00:12:56.419
ability of AI just to go and process vast amounts
00:12:56.419 --> 00:12:58.980
of data now and give you a quantitative read
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:01.419
on relevance, I think is super useful. You know,
00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:04.419
we're very active in doing that through our partnership
00:13:04.419 --> 00:13:07.559
with inference clouds. There are also some really
00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.159
neat tools emerging that allow you to kind of
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.759
get insights into discoverability. So I know
00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:15.539
what might be relevant to a particular audience
00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:19.100
group, but how am I showing up in their in their
00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:21.580
world, especially when they're engaged in AI
00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:24.539
search. So on the one hand, we've got these incredibly
00:13:24.539 --> 00:13:27.440
powerful tools that we have not had in the past,
00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:31.539
allowing us to be a lot more empirical in the
00:13:31.539 --> 00:13:35.279
way that we do strategy. At the same time, the
00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:40.340
ability to be newsworthy and to be relatable,
00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:42.980
which are fundamentally human skills that have
00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:45.179
to do with emotional resonance and contextual
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:48.120
awareness. um are never more important because
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.799
there's so much content out there that what is
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.179
sort of most relatable and most newsworthy is
00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:55.980
going to to achieve the greatest traction so
00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:59.879
i i feel like you know it's um it's almost uh
00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:03.700
looking out at a new horizon where on the one
00:14:03.700 --> 00:14:05.860
hand you've got tools that allow you to do things
00:14:05.860 --> 00:14:08.440
you've never been able to do before and on the
00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:10.799
other hand you know at least in the financial
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.860
world there's a narrative opportunity that is
00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:19.190
much more open and contested than it ever has
00:14:19.190 --> 00:14:23.830
been. Yeah, it's interesting. Now, I know you're
00:14:23.830 --> 00:14:26.649
quite focused on the financial world, but do
00:14:26.649 --> 00:14:30.210
you think there's a risk that when it comes to
00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:35.570
the UAE, it is viewed largely in economic terms?
00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:39.909
And do you think that perhaps its positioning,
00:14:40.029 --> 00:14:45.620
its brand needs to be more than just that? Yeah,
00:14:45.740 --> 00:14:48.019
it's a really interesting question, Arun. So
00:14:48.019 --> 00:14:53.820
I was out in Abu Dhabi in December, and Abu Dhabi
00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:56.460
was holding two really big events in parallel
00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:59.240
that week. So there was Abu Dhabi Finance Week,
00:14:59.379 --> 00:15:05.320
which has become a must -attend event for CEOs
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.679
and leaders in the financial world. It's a huge
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.740
gathering. It's an amazing event. And that's,
00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:14.159
you know, it's a fixture in my calendar for sure.
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:19.519
But at the same time, Abu Dhabi was hosting an
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.360
event called the Bridge Summit. I don't know
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.340
if you came across this. Bridge was all about
00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:29.139
media and the creator economy and, you know,
00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:33.100
the advertising ecosystem, the social media ecosystem.
00:15:34.659 --> 00:15:37.019
So tremendously diverse, you know, all the big
00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:40.250
social platforms were there. news organizations,
00:15:41.429 --> 00:15:45.029
you know, firms from the creator economy, investors.
00:15:46.049 --> 00:15:48.450
And I thought it was super interesting. You know,
00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:50.809
I've spent some time there, very, very diverse.
00:15:50.870 --> 00:15:54.009
And I was trying to think, what is connecting
00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:55.809
this? What is sort of bringing this together?
00:15:56.350 --> 00:16:00.750
And my hypothesis in the end was that what the
00:16:00.750 --> 00:16:04.309
UAE was doing there was understanding that influence
00:16:04.309 --> 00:16:11.230
and trust and support Yes, being a huge financial
00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:14.090
power, commanding the amount of capital that
00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:16.649
they do, that gives them a lot of influence and
00:16:16.649 --> 00:16:21.169
a lot of legitimacy. But being a player in the
00:16:21.169 --> 00:16:26.269
media and content ecosystem, having a presence
00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:30.710
in that world is also really important to building
00:16:30.710 --> 00:16:35.220
trust. And my interpretation... Obviously, I
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.080
can't say what their intention was. I don't know.
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:43.179
But it looked like the intention there was to
00:16:43.179 --> 00:16:47.480
build trust and build influence through the media
00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.799
industry as well as finance. And that seems very
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.360
smart to me. Oh, it is, clearly. I mean, I think
00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:59.639
one will be harder than the other, but it's the
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:04.900
right idea. No question. We've seen... We've
00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:07.740
seen the return of hard power. Well, let's not
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.900
say the return. Hard power never went away. But
00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:18.240
we've seen it become wielded perhaps more visibly
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.420
than it once was. Do you think there's still
00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:25.779
a role for the kind of soft power that places
00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:32.119
like the UAE espouse? Yeah, 100%. I think...
00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:36.599
The ability to attract is, you know, that's really
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.700
the definition of soft power. And the UAE has
00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:45.799
that in abundance. And I mean, you know, it's
00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.839
also strategically important to other powers
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.099
for a lot of different reasons. But I think it's
00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:58.099
easy to lose sight in a world where hard power
00:17:58.099 --> 00:18:00.910
is being... projected more frequently of of the
00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:05.329
power of attraction and and influence um but
00:18:05.329 --> 00:18:10.910
yeah it's it's very real um and i think you know
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:15.269
i i think it's really important in in the geopolitical
00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:17.109
landscape that we're in now i mean you know you
00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:20.950
were in davos you no doubt heard mark kearney's
00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:28.019
speech you know there is i think emerging groups
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.619
or a group of countries, probably multiple groups,
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:36.900
who want to trade, who want to invest with each
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:42.240
other, who want to maintain some kind of rules
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.380
-based system or rules -based systems, maybe
00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.599
overlapping circles of those. And in that context,
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.039
if you want to be successful in building those
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.319
kind of networks, trust and attraction are really
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.420
important. you know hard power in many ways is
00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:02.859
a is a luxury of very large countries um they're
00:19:02.859 --> 00:19:06.059
really yeah you know the only ones that can project
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:10.539
in that way most of the time anyway um i think
00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:13.599
soft power and and influence and attraction are
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:18.359
the best asset in many best international asset
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:24.339
that many many countries have so stability reliability
00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:28.980
these kinds of qualities become more important
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:33.599
to that story, presumably. Yes, yes, exactly.
00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.900
Consistency. I mean, you know, I think Singapore
00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.980
has done very well in this respect over the decades.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.880
People know what they can expect. It's very transparent
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.740
and it's very consistent. And that just creates
00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:52.180
trust. People feel comfortable doing business.
00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:57.670
Yeah, sure. And when you're dealing with, let's
00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:02.490
say, private sector clients or even, you know,
00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:08.869
quasi public sector organizations, how important
00:20:08.869 --> 00:20:13.289
is it to tell that broader story as well, in
00:20:13.289 --> 00:20:16.690
addition to, you know, the organizational narrative?
00:20:18.049 --> 00:20:21.329
You know, I think if you look at... the markets
00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:24.670
that we operate in at the moment in Asia and
00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:29.509
the Middle East. You could argue that this is
00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:32.809
increasingly a feature beyond those regions,
00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:37.650
but there's often a very clear national strategy,
00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:41.009
set of policy priorities. So everybody knows
00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.130
about the economic diversification strategies
00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:47.750
in the Middle East. Countries across Asia have
00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:50.740
got their... goals and priorities and national
00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:54.599
national strategies and so i think you know certainly
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.339
for public sector and clients from those countries
00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:01.299
showing alignment to that showing how what that
00:21:01.299 --> 00:21:04.519
organization does connects with that that broader
00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:09.400
purpose is is often very important um and i think
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.359
that especially foreign private sector organizations
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.920
and i'm talking about the financial sector here
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.059
you know when they come into a market um it makes
00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:23.299
sense for them reputationally to to show how
00:21:23.299 --> 00:21:25.640
they also align with with that set of national
00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.480
priorities so to answer your question i think
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.440
it's you know it's very important it's a big
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.240
part of reputation building um for public sector
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:41.960
or private sector financial sector firms and
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.000
to take To take this question to its logical
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.180
conclusion, I guess I have to ask, what happens
00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:52.299
then when those national interests compete with,
00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:56.579
for example, your home country's national interests?
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.799
That's when you need a good communications advisor.
00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:10.200
Indeed. But it's a reality. That's our world.
00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:14.119
That is the complexity of our world writ large.
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:25.740
And I think it's very important here, if you're
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.660
a domestic firm, you don't have to worry about
00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:33.200
these kind of competing claims. You align with
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.660
your country. If you're an international firm,
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.160
especially one that operates in a lot of markets,
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.779
That's where the careful judgment comes in. And
00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:51.420
my instinct would be, you know, it's always better
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:55.740
to err towards, you know, focusing on how you
00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:59.779
help your clients and being commercial. There
00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:03.220
will be... There are things that you are expected
00:23:03.220 --> 00:23:05.519
to do as a financial institution that operates
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.460
in a given country. And I think that's the case
00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:11.059
everywhere. You have responsibilities to stakeholders.
00:23:12.259 --> 00:23:16.059
But beyond that, I think the best way to manage
00:23:16.059 --> 00:23:19.339
that risk of competing claims is to stay very
00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:22.140
commercial and to stay focused on your clients
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:24.559
and how you're helping them and what you offer
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:30.579
to them. Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I think
00:23:30.579 --> 00:23:34.259
we will see many examples of this emerging over
00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:38.940
the next few years. For sure. So before I leave
00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:41.740
you, tell us a little bit more about Ashbury
00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:44.700
these days. I know you are, as you said, you're
00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:47.500
in the Gulf. You're obviously very active in
00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:54.619
Asia. What comes next? Yeah. So Ashbury is six
00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:59.140
years old. you know moment of lunacy i thought
00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:00.740
it would be a good idea to start a communications
00:24:00.740 --> 00:24:02.960
consultancy um right at the beginning of the
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:09.059
pandemic um it's uh it's been an amazing experience
00:24:09.059 --> 00:24:10.799
i have to say i've had the time of my life i
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:14.079
am having the time of my life um doing this it's
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:19.299
just so interesting and rewarding uh we are very
00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:21.440
fortunate in that you know we've got to work
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.579
with some incredible clients who've really placed
00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:26.660
their trust in us and you know grown their relationships
00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:29.940
with us over time uh and we're now in a position
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:34.240
where you know i think in the last year or so
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.960
perhaps we broke through in a sense um and i
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.480
started to to realize that we were getting access
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.599
to the kind of opportunities that we hadn't had
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.579
before we were winning in competitive situations
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.859
you know rfp situations where we might not have
00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.819
done before and it became clear that we were
00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:56.460
starting to be seen a little bit differently
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:00.140
and i think that that sort of marks the transition
00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:02.900
from perhaps a startup in the true sense of the
00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:07.819
word to being more of an upstart um but it puts
00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:09.900
us in a position where you know i think we have
00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:13.960
a great opportunity to try and scale up our business
00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:18.690
And to me, the guiding principle in that is the
00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:21.609
same as it's always been. We want to be relevant.
00:25:22.309 --> 00:25:26.970
That's why we have the rather distinctive combination
00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:32.250
of advisory, PR and content work, which I don't
00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:34.289
see very widely in the market, but our clients
00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:38.450
really love that integration. It's why we focus
00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:40.509
very much on the financial sector at present
00:25:40.509 --> 00:25:43.910
is because... i know that the clients value that
00:25:43.910 --> 00:25:47.829
sort of expertise and specialization so where
00:25:47.829 --> 00:25:50.670
we go from here is is really about filling gaps
00:25:50.670 --> 00:25:54.809
um you know you look at what clients need um
00:25:54.809 --> 00:25:59.089
you know we're meeting um a decent cross -section
00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:01.170
of those needs but not all of them you know we're
00:26:01.170 --> 00:26:03.869
not in in every place that they might want us
00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:07.029
to be uh we're not offering every solution that
00:26:07.029 --> 00:26:10.569
they might want so this year is really about
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.640
It's about making targeted investments in the
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.319
capabilities and the geographies that we need
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:21.599
to go on to the next level and really scale this
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.759
business. So it's tremendously exciting. The
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.500
market seems solid for the time being. The demand
00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:36.119
is robust. In spite of all the volatility in
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.279
the markets, the constant shifts in geopolitics,
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:43.019
the financial sector is doing quite well you
00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:45.920
look at bank results recently markets are good
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.180
uh and for as long as that that holds true you
00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:52.420
know we'll have a kind of supportive tailwind
00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:55.299
uh and it's up to us how we make the most of
00:26:55.299 --> 00:27:02.380
that sounds like fun um i'm glad to hear you're
00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:05.400
enjoying it because i do remember when you launched
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:11.029
it it was a crazy period um it was Yes. Well,
00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:15.490
thank you for all your support along the way.
00:27:15.529 --> 00:27:20.710
I really appreciate it. You've kind of seen the
00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:26.049
process. Indeed. Yeah. No, it's been really interesting
00:27:26.049 --> 00:27:30.829
watching Ashbury grow. And I look forward to
00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:35.390
seeing you at Praxis Mina next week. Safe travels.
00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:37.829
And thank you so much for your time today, Adam.
00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:40.839
Absolute pleasure. Looking forward to the event.
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.359
Always great to go to the events that you're
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.180
involved with and looking forward to meeting
00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:46.920
lots of people there.
