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Welcome to Early Intervention Matters, a podcast that helps parents, teachers, and health professionals understand the diagnosis, treatment, care, and support of children with autism, ADHD, threats, and other neurodevelopmental challenges.
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Your host, Dr.
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In-Young Cackl, is a consultant and neurodevelopment pediatrician, and she will provide insight through interviews, answering questions, and breaking down complicated topics.
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By sharing stories from parents and professionals in the field, we hope to make sense of what can be an overwhelming topic.
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Early intervention is crucial for children with developmental difficulties.
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Yes, early intervention matters.
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And now, here's your host, Dr.
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Inyan Tagon.
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Modern fatherhood has changed dramatically, yet so many dads quietly carry a heavy question.
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Am I doing any of this right?
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And when you are navigating neurodiversity, high-pressured careers, and family life into the mix, it's very easy to feel stretched, overwhelmed, or even invisible.
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Today's guest is here to change that narrative.
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He's a consultant pediatrician with over 20 years of clinical experience.
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He's also a life and leadership coach, a father of four, and founder of Connected Dad.
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We're very privileged to have John Greenell with us.
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John is a fellow colleague who understands what we have to navigate in everyday life.
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But as a dad in this space, we're particularly privileged to have John share this with us.
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And I'm excited about his book, which he will talk to us about.
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So welcome, John.
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Thank you for coming on the show.
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It's great to have you here.
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And uh we'll be grateful if you can introduce yourself to our guests.
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Thank you, Ying Nang.
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It's really great to be on the show.
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I'm a big fan.
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I've really been enjoying your conversations, and it's really lovely to be on with you.
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I think you've introduced me really well.
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It's hard, isn't it, when you say what do you what do you do?
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My kids would say I'm a middle-aged guy into cycling and his lycra.
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That's probably what they'd say.
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And bad dad jokes to boot.
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But there are lots of different ways we can.
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But you're right, I'm a consultant community pediatrician now.
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I've worked in lots of different areas.
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So I've been through the hospital and wards and neonatal units and clinics.
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But a lot of my work, as you say, has been around development and neurodiversity and the pressures that that families can experience.
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And as you say, being a dad of four, I've got children at different stages through from early on in school all the way through to leaving school.
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And yeah, that's been a humbling experience learning how to be a dad in in that setting as well.
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So yeah, that's a bit about me.
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Well done.
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It's it's uh it's quite a lot of multitasking you have to do fitting into all these places.
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But yeah, well done.
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That is.
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And you what led you to having this area of connected that?
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Because it's such a a great topic.
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I was so pleased when we connected and you talked about connected dad, and I thought this is definitely something that we need to listen to, we need to hear about because the dads in the space is so much needed.
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So could you tell us a bit what led you to creating connected dad?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I've I've been interested in dads from when I started my pediatric training.
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Actually, when I started, it was about the time I became a dad myself, and it all happened at once.
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I remember my first job, and I think it was my probably my second or third day, and I was called to a resuscitation, and I ran up several hundred yards from AE and got to the room, and there's midwife poking her head around the door, you know, down the corridor, hurry up.
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And you run into the room, and there's a baby who's just been bought out onto the resuscitaire.
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Um, they're rubbing and saying, Oh, thank goodness you're here.
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And I'm thinking, Really?
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And this is my third day on the job.
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Fortunately, the baby was fine.
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From what I remember, I didn't really have to do very much with this baby, which was great.
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But what I do remember was the dad standing there by my side.
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This was in a hospital, Margate Hospital in Kent, looking down and seeing this baby cry.
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And I suddenly heard this thump out of the corner of my eye.
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The dad had fainted on the floor.
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He ended up needing more recess than the baby did.
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Um and it, well, it was a funny story, and he was fine, so we can laugh.
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It really made me realize there is a dad there.
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And a few weeks later, I was in the room as well with my firstborn and experiencing what it's like to be a dad from that side of things as well.
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And I guess as I've gone through my clinical career, I've been interested in in dads.
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I've been interested in when dad isn't there, which is quite often.
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It's when dad is there and how he's feeling about how communication is happening often to more to mums, you know, for very good reasons often.
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And actually, I've just become aware that dads care enormously about their kids, but they often are carrying a lot of uncertainty about what their role really is or whether they're doing enough.
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And when I speak to them and one-to-one, actually, there's questions that am I really needed?
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What's my place here?
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And so, really, connected dad is my attempt to walk alongside those dads and say, you don't need to become a different dad.
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Your child needs you, and to give them that that confidence from the experiences I've had personally and professionally.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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And as you were talking, I was reflecting on my my husband being there when I was having my second baby, and then he thought he was going to be outside and I needed a section.
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And they said to him, Okay, here the blues, put it on and come in and he was you could see it all over his face.
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He he wanted to disappear from the place, but having to play a major role there.
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Like you said, they do care, but they're just at a loss about what to do.
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And and many people sometimes don't really connect with the fact that that's somebody that's really needing his hands held during that time.
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So yeah, we'll talk about that as you know as we go on.
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So now you you've you've been through different aspects of pediatrics, you've been through the acute phase and the adrenaline phase, and then community and neurodevelopment till PAID.
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When did you actually realize more that dads needed support?
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You've talked about the onset time, but as you've gone through your career, what was that phase, especially in neurodiversity, where it's also confusing for everybody, for the parents when they're faced with their child not developing the way they should, and you know, coming to terms with that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean it's it's really challenging, isn't it?
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And I think one thing is that sometimes dads just aren't there.
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So whether that's because they're not at the clinic appointment, so we don't meet them, and you get second-hand information.
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So you might say to the mum, what does dad think about this?
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And and it's fairly common to hear something like, dad doesn't really see this, you know, my child's different with him, or dad thinks that he or she'll grow out of it, or they might say, Oh, it took me a long time to persuade his dad to to agree to this process.
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He's not, you know, and I don't say that critically about dads.
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I think a lot of the time children do behave differently, don't they, with different parents.
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I don't know if you've had that experience where it's just different in different at different settings, or perhaps he's seeing a different side of the child.
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So it's really important to get that different perspective.
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And I think I've yeah, I've just realized often that's lacking when a dad isn't there or we don't have their input on the forms, and and it's really helpful to have another perspective.
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And so I that's been a challenge to me to say I need to seek this out more intentionally from dads themselves.
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I don't know about you, Anya, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on this, but but sometimes I sense it more from a dad where they feel more of a sense of failure.
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And when they when you say your child has a developmental difference, maybe dads are more likely to interpret that as I failed or there's something wrong with my child, and and there's a more of a resistance to that.
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And that might be because they've had less time to process it.
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Often mums have been living with us a bit longer, usually because on average they're with their children a bit more.
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That's not the case all the time.
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I mean, they might have noticed things earlier and talked to friends and had multiple conversations and reading, and and by the time that they're ready, if you like, for the process, but sometimes dads are not as ready, or they might sit in clinic and when I get them on their own, they might say, Oh, I don't know, she's better than this at me, or yeah, yeah.
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They just feel a bit like I'm just not sure what my role here is as well.
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And I think those are some differences I've just noticed, probably quite gradually throughout the process of assessing children manure developmental presentations.
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I think you're right, and I I think as we're having this conversation, it's just bringing up some so many scenarios to me where I've had a mix of sometimes the dads are outright, no, there's nothing wrong.
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And over time you have to gradually get them into realizing that there's something wrong, or the fact the father says, Well, he never does that with me, whenever he's there with me.
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I don't say this, like you said, and they hold on to that fact for a long time until you get them to the process that, okay, we need to work together.
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And I've had the other side where I've actually had the other side where the father was saying the concern and the mother wasn't, and they have been trying ways in which to, you know, seek help.
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So I've had it in different ways, but I think this is something we've seen that most times.
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There hasn't really been that lens looking at why are fathers, you know, what what is their view and what is the thing that's making them behave that way?
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And I think that it's such a a big area that, and I'm glad that you're creating that platform and creating the resources and framework for men to come and talk about this.
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And there's something you put on your platform where you said fatherhood is an identity before it's a performance.
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Do you want to talk to us a bit more about that?
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Yeah, I I think this is so so important because it it can be easy.
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Well, I'm sure we can do it in motherhood as well, but we're talking about dads.
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But fatherhood can become a performance.
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You know, am I doing enough?
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Am I spending enough time with them?
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Are my children behaving well?
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Am I providing enough?
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How am I doing compared to the dad, dad next door?
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And I think in our culture, dads are really involved.
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We're asking dads to be more involved than in previous generations, and that's that's a good thing.
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But that's that's also quite challenging.
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And a lot of dads that I coach and I speak to are feeling a real pressure.
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They're feeling that actually how their child's getting on affects them, if you like, quite quite significantly.
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So they might say, they might convert, oh, I got angry yesterday, and it becomes something that defines them.
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You know, I'm an angry dad, I'm a failure, or I can't do that.
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But I think what I'm trying to bring it back to is say, look, it's not about performance like every day trying to prove that you're a great dad.
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Actually, it's more from a point of identity and saying, look, I am this child's dad.
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And just because they're having a meltdown, or just because I handled something really badly, or just because I'm not as good at it as dad down the road, that doesn't mean that I'm not their dad anymore.
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And it gives us a security to say, I don't have to earn this by producing successful children.
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But actually, I've been given this relationship, I've been given this responsibility.
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No one else has for this child, and to to work from that, and I just I sometimes see that as just taking a bit of a exhaling at that point and just it's just freeing just to realize that it's okay.
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This is who you are, you don't have to keep earning it and proving who you are every day.
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So that's probably what I meant.
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I think what I meant by that.
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I think it's really important because sometimes we can get into, and you mentioned this at the beginning, the habit of comparison, so we can look at B and say, Oh, look at what B is doing.
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He's doing X, Y, Z, and people using that as a benchmark for what a good dad is.
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And sometimes I don't know whether men feeling they can't be B and they can take on that role makes them even shrink more.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I agree.
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Yeah.
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And and uh in terms of the pressures, obviously, that there's all the pressures around.
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They there's so much.
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You turn on the TV, they're pressures, you turn on your radio, they're pressures.
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How do you approach discussing this with the fathers themselves?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I think as I've coached a number of dads over the years, I've realized a lot of us want to jump straight to the solution, if you like the fix.
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So a lot of dads are asking, you know, how do I get my child to listen to me?
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Or how do I get them to want to spend time with me?
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How do I get them away from their screens?
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And also but also reflecting at the same time that actually often when they're on themselves, on their feelings.
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And that's often what we do is we look at not just you can't control your children completely, can you?
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But you can have more of an effect on how you show up.
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And a lot of the times if we're a bit frustrated or dysregulated or tired or strained, actually we need to notice that in ourselves.
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And so that's where my framework in the book calm, confidence, and connection comes from.
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Calm is something that we bring, it's something that we've reflected on in ourselves of how we respond to our to our child.
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And once you've kind of got that kind of base of the emotional temperature being settled in yourself, it's then the confidence.
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It's actually the confidence to know I have a role here, it's distinct, perhaps from their mums, and I may need to adapt that role, but I have a confidence that I bring something to the table that my children do actually need.
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Because some dads will be like, Well, I just let my partner get on with it all because she can do everything, she can talk to them, she can empathize.
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And sometimes there's that confidence to say, no, no, you do bring something.
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Yeah, you may get it wrong, and your partner may tell you, you know, oh, just you're getting it wrong.
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So, yeah, confidence, and then finally it's the connection.
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It's actually, and that can be really ordinary, sitting alongside them, playing a game with them, just walking somewhere together, and and seeing opportunity just to build connection in ordinary moments, not necessarily in big events.
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So I I often talk dads through that process of calm, confidence, and connection in that order, really.
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I think that's so useful because I I've seen situations where the dads give up quite easily because they've seen a pattern and they might think, oh, he's always going to his mother when he needs this.
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So he obviously doesn't think I can solve anything.
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That's right.
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And therefore that pattern just continues and the father just resigns to, well, he's not going to listen to me, he's going to listen to his mother.
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Um that what we're saying now is so important because it just helps them to understand that yes, you may be doing it differently from the mom you're bringing something in and don't give up, just keep trying, you know, and look at different ways.
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I have seen situations where the fathers have given up quite easily and just think, well, I I can't do anything here.
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And in a clinic setting, on that neurodivergent journey where they've come for an assessment.
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And have you had the scenario where with I'm sure you probably have with the two parents there, where they're receiving that message quite differently.
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And what do you tend to see?
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What blind spots do you notice father's facing during this process?
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Yeah, no, it's a really good question.
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I mean, I think there are often differences, and that can be very challenging just to manage a consultation depending on how the parents are getting on.
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I mean, and I I really want to encourage parents to recognise the differences and to value those differences.
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But one thing I I say in the book is back each other publicly and then talk it through privately.
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And so sometimes that might mean, you know, often we'll ask the young person maybe maybe to step out and obviously have time with them as well, but actually an opportunity to talk quite openly with how the parents are handling their disagreements and where those things might be coming from.
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Because it's particularly fraught and challenging with with neurodivergent children.
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The anger, the overwhelm, dysregulation, not having the words often to explain how they feel.
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I mean, it it really takes it out of adults and strange relationships.
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And so I'm really passionate about supporting parents, whether they're living together or not, to yeah, to work together well, to at value one another and value what each one on brings and to be united in front of the children.
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Yeah, so it's sometimes I've had the very heated moment with the parents.
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I think that's the one I usually struggle with, with trying to get them to realize that there's a child in the middle and that those differences should not be displayed in front of the child, because the child I've had situations where the child is very distressed because of the disagreements in the room which have become very loud and vocal, and for a moment I think the parents kind of forget that how much that is impacting on the child.
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And I do try to use that opportunity to get usually when that happens, I get the child out of the room, I get a nurse to be with the child because I just think it's unfair for the child to be listening to such verbal disagreements in the room.
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And I do try with the few moments I have to actually talk through to them about the impact that it's having.
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There's a a recent incident where I say to parents, even if the child is non-verbal or not communicating, they are perceiving what is going on.
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And I've seen situations where you know that has impacted a child significantly, and the behaviour is different when parents separate and the same child is seen again.
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It's just amazing how much difference you can actually see within a clinic setting on the impact of disagreements on a child.
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How do you get them to work as a unified team during this period?
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It's very difficult.
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I mean, sometimes we'll ask them about them themselves, about their own health, because there's no doubt that the pressure and stress on an adult and the strain on just on you individually.
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So making sure that you're okay and that actually each one of you has got those people that you can go to as parents, as as individuals, to go and actually vent to or to go and get support for.
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It might be going to your GP, counselling, whatever it is.
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And then asking them what they do for for each other in terms of a l giving each other space.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:02.319
So obviously, not every couple's together, but where people are together, I I sometimes will talk about whether their needs as a couple are being met.
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:07.920
Because I think a lot of the focus is rightly often on the child and on putting them at the centre of this.
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:13.279
And I often hear parents say that that it's all about them, and I just you know it's not about me, it's all about them.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:32.480
And I will sometimes politely correct them actually and say, Yeah, it is all about the child, but actually it's so important that you have a strong relationship, and that's good for you, but it's also good for your children that you have a strong relationship because actually, if we're kind of fractured and if we're not on the same page, if we're not making time for one another, then it it doesn't help our kids real.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:39.599
So we'll sometimes just talk a bit about what they're doing together, which yeah, can be getting into more of a couple's counselling area, I have to be careful of that.
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:46.000
But that's sometimes what people need is just to step back and realize, wow, actually we want to be a team here and we're not at the moment.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:55.279
And I think sometimes as medics, we have a the ability just to call it out gently, politely, uh, and make some suggestions for them as adults as well, because it's it's hard.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:11.680
It is, and I think that's one of the difficulties with the pressured consultations we have, is that it leaves very little time um to be able to have a proper connection with them and get to the underlying um issues behind what is causing the freaking.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:24.240
Like I say, it can be quite overwhelming on a day-to-day basis for either parent, you know, navigating, looking after a neurodivergent child and all that that brings.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.119
So having to deal with the day-to-day can be really challenging.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.079
And I think being able to take a step back is really good.
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.640
What what tends to happen during your coaching?
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.279
How do you run your programs for them?
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:44.720
Yeah, so coaching was a revelation to me because I have always been fascinated what sits underneath the presenting problem.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.240
Like what do people actually believe?
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.279
What are they worried about?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.559
What are they not saying here?
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.359
And I think that's just that's the whole psychology, isn't it, of medicine?
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.880
It's lovely when you go in and you treat someone with asthma and they get better and go home.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:56.240
But that's quite straightforward.
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.759
It's much more difficult when you throw in real people and real issues.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:03.920
And the the difference, the challenges as a clinician, though, is often we go in and give an answer, right?
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.160
So we go in, we diagnose the asthma, you treat it.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.839
Or in our world, it might be, well, we're here for our expertise, and here's a diagnosis, and here's what you need to do about it.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:19.680
But coaching's quite different because clinical medicine says you're the expert, you know, I'm the expert, and uh they're the patient, if you like.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.359
Although we're trying to work away from a paternalistic angle on that.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.480
But coaching says actually that this person is the expert in their life.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:38.960
My job isn't to rush in and give the answer, it's to to listen, to ask good questions, sometimes challenge them so that they can see something that they haven't seen before.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.359
And when I started doing this, I did think initially, I thought that's a bit wishy-washy, really.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:45.519
Sometimes we just need to say it as it is.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:55.119
But I was stunned at the way that when people discover something about themselves rather than being given some advice by somebody else, there's much more ownership.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:06.240
And actually, statistically, people are far more likely to follow through on something if they've actually wrestled it, thought it through, connected to their own values, um, and actually come up with the answers themselves.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:17.279
So, coaching is about really creating a space, an environment to help people think more clearly, to not judge them, and to take responsibility rather than sit and say, I need someone to tell me what to do.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.559
I'm a helpless dad.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.640
I just need this expert to come and help me.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:26.559
It's completely flit, and it's saying, no, you're the expert in your child, you know, you're the dad, I'm not.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.000
And actually, you you've got this, and I'm here just to help draw out of you what's already in there.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:40.799
So, yeah, I guess I'd frame it as consulting is about me helping you solve a problem, whereas coaching is about helping you become better at solving your own problems.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:41.519
Problems.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.200
Yeah, so that's kind of how I see it.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.680
I mean, how does that resonate with your own this isn't?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.160
Definitely, yeah, I completely agree.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:59.759
And I think that, you know, that prescriptive way of dealing with things and telling people this is what you need to do is not sustainable because yes, they try it for one or two times and then it falls apart because they haven't gone.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.079
Deeply into themselves to actually unpick what they need to change because the answers come from them.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.960
So that I completely agree with that approach and the clarity.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:17.200
And I think that's the problem with clinical medicine is that we've got a prescription that is one size fits all.
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:18.799
No, this is what you need to do.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.039
So we see this family, everybody needs to do X, Y, Z.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.599
And that's what I struggle with because everybody's not the same.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.559
What you've said for A cannot apply to B.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:37.680
So we have to look at what is going to work for them, and they're the best people to come up with what is going to work for them.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.480
So I completely agree with that.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:42.400
Yeah.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.559
I was just going to say, I think that somebody might be listening thinking, I've got one hour, if I'm a clinician, I've got an hour or 90 minutes, whatever it is you've got.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.440
How on earth do you do it?
00:22:49.599 --> 00:23:06.640
Now, of course, we're talking a bit there about coaching outside, but I think we can also bring that into our consultation sometimes, just to just with one or two questions, just to open up, you know, so out of all the things you've heard, what you might say to a parent, you know, what what is one thing that you think might be help might be helpful here?
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.200
Um and we can just ask sometimes a couple of questions.
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:16.079
It just reminds them that actually they're the expert in their life and that they can actually go and reflect on what they might want to do next.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.640
And we can do that just with one or two little questions, I think, in a short clinical space.
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.200
But then of course they yeah, they may need some further coaching outside.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.119
I think that's really helpful.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:42.079
That's really helpful advice for clinicians because sometimes when the problems are placed on the table, the clinician is still trying to work out how to navigate, making sure that they've gotten all the information they need to, and they're thinking, okay, how am I going to deal with this other issue?
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:46.000
So I think clinicians themselves need to think about.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:55.519
I think we need to make a conscious effort to think about the fact that it's not just the child and the assessment and the diagnosis, it's what else is going on around the child.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:09.119
It's the family, it's how parents perceive what is going on, because I have found that that has a lot of impact on that child's needs and that child's progress as well.
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.240
Yeah, agree.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:20.799
And so we know that many men just feel so isolated in conversations, and some of them are very hesitant to seek help.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.920
So, how do you help them break that reluctance and shift their stance?
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:42.160
Yeah, just to say, I mean, I've I've listed them at the back of my book because I've did have lots of conversations and lots of research on, you know, dad organizations, and we've got some great ones just very locally to us who are doing brilliant work in just reaching dads in schools socially to bring them together.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.759
And that's a big part of it, is dads often feel we often feel we're on our own.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.720
We often feel that we're failing and everyone else is doing fine because social media life just looks so wonderful.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.480
We'll just come back from holidays and everyone's so happy on their holidays.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.000
But then they're having a huge explosion shouting at their kids or something.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:03.440
So there's a lot of internalized failure or grieving, like the life they imagined it would be.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:09.440
This would be a wonderful family life, but actually life's just really difficult and constantly the the house is just tense.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.839
And so I think a lot of men are feeling that a lot of men are reluctant to come forward.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:15.440
I don't think that's because they don't care.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.799
Um, and then we just gotta be wary of like saying that just because men are reluctant means they don't care.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.400
A lot of men feel that asking for help means that that they're admitting failure.
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:32.000
And if your identity is tied up with being a competent person, I am competent, I can do things, I fix things, then that's really hard to do.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:37.279
So if a dad is reaching out for help or is or is willing to speak, that's a huge step.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:44.480
Even if they just say one thing in your clinic that just you you you feel that was that's really probably quite brave for them to do.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:46.240
And so dads are very sensitive to that.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:52.880
And I very much try to write and communicate in a way which doesn't sort of say, here's what you're doing wrong, because we hear that all the time as dads.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.519
We don't need someone else telling us how it's going wrong, but actually to ask a more open question.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:25:59.200
So, what was difficult at the moment?
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:04.720
And that's a question I often start with, either one-to-one or in clinic, you know, what are you finding most challenging?
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.920
And dads are more likely to open up when they're not not being judged.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:16.880
And so I think that's why dads need groups, they need the conversations together, hopefully things like I'm writing to recognise it's not just me, other dads struggle with this too.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:23.359
And I can actually move from feeling ashamed to being curious about things, and then I can potentially change as a result.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:37.359
It's it's making me also reflect on our role as clinicians and how there's a tendency to even during consultations to revert to the mother who's providing you the information.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:43.359
And sometimes the dad could just, when he comes, he could just sit down there and not really not say anything.
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:58.880
And just as clinicians, what our role is to make sure that we're hearing the other side and hearing the that side and actively engaging them in the conversations because many dads will not jump in to provide the information in that setting.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.599
They would sit down, but it doesn't mean they don't care.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:05.839
And so, what would you advise for clinicians, obviously, with the work that you're doing?
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:07.680
Yeah, I completely agree with what you said.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:18.720
I mean, I think obviously when the when the dad is there, it's about giving him the opportunity to speak because often it will be, oh, I don't know, I wasn't there, but actually saying, I really want to hear what you've got.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:24.880
Your perspective is important, it might be a bit different, but it's really vital that I hear I hear you.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.519
And if they're not there, it's where we can, giving an opportunity for dad to feed in.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:39.359
So if it's beforehand, we ask parents as much as possible to complete forms together to get all perspectives and maybe other important adults in this child's life as well, of course.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.640
So getting their contribution before the before the appointment.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:56.000
And sometimes I will write in a letter, if I picked up that there's some hesitation from from dad, that I will say, Look, I know that dad wasn't here in clinic, but I'm very happy to speak to him by by phone after the appointment once you've digested the report.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.440
Um, because there is that challenging area around parental responsibility, isn't there?
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:05.039
When you're giving a diagnosis, particularly if you're speaking to mum and you know that dad is a bit reluctant about it.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.480
Yeah, just even from a clinical position, I sometimes think, goodness, you know, yeah, this is about both parents.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.799
And if dad's not on board now, then that really will affect the outcome for this child.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:22.000
Because if there's inconsistencies and a dad's dismissing things, then actually that's not good for the child.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.720
And we can see it's easy to sit and blame the dad and say, well, he should just get on, get with the programme.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:34.319
But for reasons that we've said, you know, dads are often are a bit further behind in that process because they haven't often been considering it as long.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:35.519
Not always, but but sometimes.
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.200
So I think we need to do our best to help them, and that will help the child as well.
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.519
But it's challenging with the lack of time we've got.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.880
Yeah, but I think you've made a great point, John.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:53.279
I think that we need to look at the process from the beginning in terms of collecting that information from that.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:02.640
Because I've had situations where the assessment has gone on and the mother's probably said, no, dad is not he's not involved and all that.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.480
And sometimes the fathers have contacted afterwards to say, I very much want to be part of this process.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.920
Could you let me know?
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:10.720
You understand?
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:27.680
And and I think that it is important to take that step before then to see make sure that even if the dad is not in the picture, but he's somewhere and it's got some connection with that child, that we should get his perspective, his information as well.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.599
I think it's equally important.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:37.119
And even in the process of the diagnosis, like you said, that you're happy to speak to the dad if you know after they've written the report.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:42.480
I think that's that's definitely good practice that I would say clinicians should reflect.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:59.119
Because the way the clinician responds to the dad during that consultation could either make or break that, because if they feel that they're being ignored or not included in the conversations, it could reinforce the thinking that he they're not wanted here.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:05.759
So as clinicians, I think we have the responsibility to make sure that you know they're included in that process.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.039
Yeah, I agree.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.960
So, and telling us about a bit more about your book, Connected Dad.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.200
So it's out now, is it?
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.240
It is, yeah, it is, yeah, exciting.
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:24.720
That's that's fantastic, and it must have been it must have been very rewarding.
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:29.039
I mean, uh writing a book is lovely, but it can be challenging as well.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.079
You know, I'm writing a few books and it is it is This is my first one in Yang.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.799
If anyone had told me what it was really like, I probably wouldn't have done it.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:42.480
I'm actually probably glad they didn't, because I started off thinking, oh, this is great, and I love thinking and writing down my thoughts.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.480
And by the end of the hundredth edit, I just it was awful.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:50.160
But it's out now, it's done, and I'm just so yeah, I'm so pleased.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:31:02.240
And I think that just yeah, it's lovely to have it out there, but in a way, it's I feel as the beginning of a conversation because actually it's not about okay, I'm gonna read something and put it on the shelf, but actually, how do we really think about Fatherhead?
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:03.599
How might I make some changes?
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:14.079
And so I'm continuing to think about this, I'm continuing to to write and to to blog, blogging through my thoughts on Substack and uh lots of avenues to take it with, really.
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:23.119
But I think that getting getting dads together and talking, whether it's around the book or pointing to the other fantastic you know organizations who do these things is what I'm really keen on.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:24.319
Working with dads' groups.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:31.440
I've had a few people who run dads groups to say I've seen your book and I've read it and it's just what we need, and we're gonna go through it together.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:54.720
So that's really exciting to I think it's I'm excited as well because, like I said to you, it's something that's missing throughout all my career when seeing children and knowing that dads have an important role, dads not being part of the conversations in the room, dads just not knowing what to do and therefore standing aside sometimes.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:03.119
I think having a good grounded conversation and being able to get a resource like your book is really important.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:07.359
So well done for for writing this and taking this on.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.680
And and tell us about your platform.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.759
Obviously, there are other resources that you're looking at for families.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.920
Yeah, so I'm very much thinking about the whole family at the moment.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:25.359
So I'm just beginning to think and write a bit more about family culture because obviously, obviously, dads feed into that, but obviously we we do that as well.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:35.119
I do some one-to-one coaching with dads and sometimes with uh with a couple together, which is uh really fun, but obviously quite limited due to my clinical commitments.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:50.799
I've just literally just today I could um we've signed a contract with uh Jessica Kingsley Publishers to write uh a book, co-authoring that with a colleague, and it'll be called While You Wait, and it's about supporting families and children who are waiting for an ADHD and autism assessment.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.440
So that'll be out next year, um, which is exciting.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:54.319
Fantastic.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.000
Yeah, I'm really excited by that.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:02.160
And uh yeah, so I basically I blog on my website and on Substack and uh yeah, just enjoying doing that really.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.680
And if it helps people a little bit, then that's that's really encouraging.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.519
Fantastic, very good.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.799
Well, I'm usually so pleased with the clinicians when when we step outside the room.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:13.200
Yeah.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.920
Step outside the four walls of the room.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:23.759
And and it just always gladdens my heart because I just feel we are getting the messages out there.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:29.119
And I think when I started doing the uh podcast, I didn't really know the direction.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:31.680
I just knew that I wanted my voice out there.
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:42.000
My voice out there to carry, to talk more about the things that I was bothering, yeah, was signposting families, signposting people to things that they needed to do.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:50.880
And because I just knew the clinic, the way it was, I mean, it's even getting worse because we're getting even less time and the focus is on things.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:59.759
So I'm just saying that going on all the time, but I just feel that we should we should be getting our voices out there and all that.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.440
So I'm really pleased and congrats on your sign-ups.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:14.559
It's so interesting because I I've been doing a series for par parents called Waiting Well and just yeah, yeah, and it's just what they do for the different conditions while they're waiting for.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.079
So it's it's really, really good because that's what we need.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.360
We people shouldn't be waiting for five years for an ADHD.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:26.480
I know, I know, waiting for this this answer, but actually, yeah, it's like it's happening now, isn't it?
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.519
Which is exactly, which is no answer because you tell them, yes, your child's got a diagnosis, so what?
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:32.159
So what else?
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.519
So what yeah, exactly.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.119
Yeah, so well done.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.400
Well done.
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:41.199
Yeah, so where can people find you, John, for our guest?
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:50.159
And yeah, so I mean I'm uh I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, my Instagram handle is at tallmedic because what you can't see is that I'm very tall and I'm a medic.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.880
But video and uh and audio is a great leveler, literally.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.519
But I'm very tall and I don't play basketball.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:10.480
But so at tall medic, and then I'm on Substack at John Greenall, and uh my website is connected hyphen dad.com, and that's where my my blog is and linked to more information about book and coaching and things like that.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:11.840
Well, thank you so much.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.360
It's been wonderful having you on our podcast.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:26.079
And for for our audience out there, Connected Dad is available, and you can get a copy, and you can go on John's site where he outlines everything that he does.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:31.199
And it's just important that this very important topic is being looked into.
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:41.360
And there are dads, many dads out there who will be listening to this podcast to to let you know that we do see you, we do we do know that you care.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:47.119
Yeah, and uh we want you to be included in the conversations from assessments on.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:57.519
I know it doesn't usually seem that way, sometimes in clinic, but yes, we do see you, and it will be good for you to uh connect with us.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.880
John is doing a great work, he's got a platform.
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:14.880
Please feel free to connect with his resources and his platform, and I'm sure that hopefully we will get you know more dads doing great work out there and supporting other dads as well.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:17.920
Thank you, thanks for having me.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.599
Thanks for all you're doing in the space, it's it's inspirational and much needed.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:22.960
So, yeah, keep up the good work.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:23.360
Thank you.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.119
Thank you, thank you so much.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:25.679
Thank you.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.800
As we always say, early intervention leads to better outcome.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:35.920
And early intervention can only be achieved by early diagnosis.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.559
So thank you for listening into the series today.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:47.039
Um, I know some of the things we've talked about today would probably have generated some questions or need to see clarification.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:56.719
So I'm happy to take questions, and I'll invite you to send your questions to EIM at drtakon.com.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:58.559
Thank you for listening.
00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:20.399
Welcome to Early Intervention Matters, a podcast that helps parents, teachers, and health professionals understand the diagnosis, treatment, care, and support of children with autism, ADHD, threats, and other neurodevelopmental challenges.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:22.239
Your host, Dr.
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In-Young Cackl, is a consultant and neurodevelopment pediatrician, and she will provide insight through interviews, answering questions, and breaking down complicated topics.
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By sharing stories from parents and professionals in the field, we hope to make sense of what can be an overwhelming topic.
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Early intervention is crucial for children with developmental difficulties.
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Yes, early intervention matters.
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And now, here's your host, Dr.
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Inyan Tagon.
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Modern fatherhood has changed dramatically, yet so many dads quietly carry a heavy question.
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Am I doing any of this right?
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And when you are navigating neurodiversity, high-pressured careers, and family life into the mix, it's very easy to feel stretched, overwhelmed, or even invisible.
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Today's guest is here to change that narrative.
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He's a consultant pediatrician with over 20 years of clinical experience.
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He's also a life and leadership coach, a father of four, and founder of Connected Dad.
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We're very privileged to have John Greenell with us.
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John is a fellow colleague who understands what we have to navigate in everyday life.
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But as a dad in this space, we're particularly privileged to have John share this with us.
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And I'm excited about his book, which he will talk to us about.
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So welcome, John.
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Thank you for coming on the show.
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It's great to have you here.
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And uh we'll be grateful if you can introduce yourself to our guests.
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Thank you, Ying Nang.
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It's really great to be on the show.
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I'm a big fan.
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I've really been enjoying your conversations, and it's really lovely to be on with you.
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I think you've introduced me really well.
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It's hard, isn't it, when you say what do you what do you do?
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My kids would say I'm a middle-aged guy into cycling and his lycra.
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That's probably what they'd say.
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And bad dad jokes to boot.
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But there are lots of different ways we can.
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But you're right, I'm a consultant community pediatrician now.
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I've worked in lots of different areas.
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So I've been through the hospital and wards and neonatal units and clinics.
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But a lot of my work, as you say, has been around development and neurodiversity and the pressures that that families can experience.
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And as you say, being a dad of four, I've got children at different stages through from early on in school all the way through to leaving school.
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And yeah, that's been a humbling experience learning how to be a dad in in that setting as well.
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So yeah, that's a bit about me.
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Well done.
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It's it's uh it's quite a lot of multitasking you have to do fitting into all these places.
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But yeah, well done.
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That is.
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And you what led you to having this area of connected that?
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Because it's such a a great topic.
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I was so pleased when we connected and you talked about connected dad, and I thought this is definitely something that we need to listen to, we need to hear about because the dads in the space is so much needed.
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So could you tell us a bit what led you to creating connected dad?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I've I've been interested in dads from when I started my pediatric training.
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Actually, when I started, it was about the time I became a dad myself, and it all happened at once.
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I remember my first job, and I think it was my probably my second or third day, and I was called to a resuscitation, and I ran up several hundred yards from AE and got to the room, and there's midwife poking her head around the door, you know, down the corridor, hurry up.
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And you run into the room, and there's a baby who's just been bought out onto the resuscitaire.
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Um, they're rubbing and saying, Oh, thank goodness you're here.
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And I'm thinking, Really?
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And this is my third day on the job.
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Fortunately, the baby was fine.
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From what I remember, I didn't really have to do very much with this baby, which was great.
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But what I do remember was the dad standing there by my side.
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This was in a hospital, Margate Hospital in Kent, looking down and seeing this baby cry.
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And I suddenly heard this thump out of the corner of my eye.
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The dad had fainted on the floor.
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He ended up needing more recess than the baby did.
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Um and it, well, it was a funny story, and he was fine, so we can laugh.
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It really made me realize there is a dad there.
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And a few weeks later, I was in the room as well with my firstborn and experiencing what it's like to be a dad from that side of things as well.
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:34.560
And I guess as I've gone through my clinical career, I've been interested in in dads.
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I've been interested in when dad isn't there, which is quite often.
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It's when dad is there and how he's feeling about how communication is happening often to more to mums, you know, for very good reasons often.
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And actually, I've just become aware that dads care enormously about their kids, but they often are carrying a lot of uncertainty about what their role really is or whether they're doing enough.
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And when I speak to them and one-to-one, actually, there's questions that am I really needed?
00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:02.000
What's my place here?
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:08.879
And so, really, connected dad is my attempt to walk alongside those dads and say, you don't need to become a different dad.
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Your child needs you, and to give them that that confidence from the experiences I've had personally and professionally.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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And as you were talking, I was reflecting on my my husband being there when I was having my second baby, and then he thought he was going to be outside and I needed a section.
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:32.720
And they said to him, Okay, here the blues, put it on and come in and he was you could see it all over his face.
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He he wanted to disappear from the place, but having to play a major role there.
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Like you said, they do care, but they're just at a loss about what to do.
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And and many people sometimes don't really connect with the fact that that's somebody that's really needing his hands held during that time.
00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.120
So yeah, we'll talk about that as you know as we go on.
00:05:55.279 --> 00:06:05.680
So now you you've you've been through different aspects of pediatrics, you've been through the acute phase and the adrenaline phase, and then community and neurodevelopment till PAID.
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:09.839
When did you actually realize more that dads needed support?
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You've talked about the onset time, but as you've gone through your career, what was that phase, especially in neurodiversity, where it's also confusing for everybody, for the parents when they're faced with their child not developing the way they should, and you know, coming to terms with that.
00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:29.279
Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.199
I mean it's it's really challenging, isn't it?
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And I think one thing is that sometimes dads just aren't there.
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So whether that's because they're not at the clinic appointment, so we don't meet them, and you get second-hand information.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.160
So you might say to the mum, what does dad think about this?
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And and it's fairly common to hear something like, dad doesn't really see this, you know, my child's different with him, or dad thinks that he or she'll grow out of it, or they might say, Oh, it took me a long time to persuade his dad to to agree to this process.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.279
He's not, you know, and I don't say that critically about dads.
00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:04.800
I think a lot of the time children do behave differently, don't they, with different parents.
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:12.319
I don't know if you've had that experience where it's just different in different at different settings, or perhaps he's seeing a different side of the child.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.199
So it's really important to get that different perspective.
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And I think I've yeah, I've just realized often that's lacking when a dad isn't there or we don't have their input on the forms, and and it's really helpful to have another perspective.
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And so I that's been a challenge to me to say I need to seek this out more intentionally from dads themselves.
00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:37.920
I don't know about you, Anya, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on this, but but sometimes I sense it more from a dad where they feel more of a sense of failure.
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:48.879
And when they when you say your child has a developmental difference, maybe dads are more likely to interpret that as I failed or there's something wrong with my child, and and there's a more of a resistance to that.
00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.279
And that might be because they've had less time to process it.
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Often mums have been living with us a bit longer, usually because on average they're with their children a bit more.
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That's not the case all the time.
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I mean, they might have noticed things earlier and talked to friends and had multiple conversations and reading, and and by the time that they're ready, if you like, for the process, but sometimes dads are not as ready, or they might sit in clinic and when I get them on their own, they might say, Oh, I don't know, she's better than this at me, or yeah, yeah.
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.639
They just feel a bit like I'm just not sure what my role here is as well.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:26.560
And I think those are some differences I've just noticed, probably quite gradually throughout the process of assessing children manure developmental presentations.
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I think you're right, and I I think as we're having this conversation, it's just bringing up some so many scenarios to me where I've had a mix of sometimes the dads are outright, no, there's nothing wrong.
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And over time you have to gradually get them into realizing that there's something wrong, or the fact the father says, Well, he never does that with me, whenever he's there with me.
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I don't say this, like you said, and they hold on to that fact for a long time until you get them to the process that, okay, we need to work together.
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:16.879
And I've had the other side where I've actually had the other side where the father was saying the concern and the mother wasn't, and they have been trying ways in which to, you know, seek help.
00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:21.759
So I've had it in different ways, but I think this is something we've seen that most times.
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There hasn't really been that lens looking at why are fathers, you know, what what is their view and what is the thing that's making them behave that way?
00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:41.759
And I think that it's such a a big area that, and I'm glad that you're creating that platform and creating the resources and framework for men to come and talk about this.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:49.600
And there's something you put on your platform where you said fatherhood is an identity before it's a performance.
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Do you want to talk to us a bit more about that?
00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:57.519
Yeah, I I think this is so so important because it it can be easy.
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Well, I'm sure we can do it in motherhood as well, but we're talking about dads.
00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:01.919
But fatherhood can become a performance.
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:02.960
You know, am I doing enough?
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:04.720
Am I spending enough time with them?
00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:06.080
Are my children behaving well?
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:07.279
Am I providing enough?
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.080
How am I doing compared to the dad, dad next door?
00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.720
And I think in our culture, dads are really involved.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.120
We're asking dads to be more involved than in previous generations, and that's that's a good thing.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.360
But that's that's also quite challenging.
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.120
And a lot of dads that I coach and I speak to are feeling a real pressure.
00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:28.799
They're feeling that actually how their child's getting on affects them, if you like, quite quite significantly.
00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:35.279
So they might say, they might convert, oh, I got angry yesterday, and it becomes something that defines them.
00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.039
You know, I'm an angry dad, I'm a failure, or I can't do that.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:46.639
But I think what I'm trying to bring it back to is say, look, it's not about performance like every day trying to prove that you're a great dad.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:51.679
Actually, it's more from a point of identity and saying, look, I am this child's dad.
00:10:51.840 --> 00:11:01.679
And just because they're having a meltdown, or just because I handled something really badly, or just because I'm not as good at it as dad down the road, that doesn't mean that I'm not their dad anymore.
00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:07.120
And it gives us a security to say, I don't have to earn this by producing successful children.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.720
But actually, I've been given this relationship, I've been given this responsibility.
00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:21.600
No one else has for this child, and to to work from that, and I just I sometimes see that as just taking a bit of a exhaling at that point and just it's just freeing just to realize that it's okay.
00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.679
This is who you are, you don't have to keep earning it and proving who you are every day.
00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:27.039
So that's probably what I meant.
00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:28.080
I think what I meant by that.
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:38.879
I think it's really important because sometimes we can get into, and you mentioned this at the beginning, the habit of comparison, so we can look at B and say, Oh, look at what B is doing.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:44.639
He's doing X, Y, Z, and people using that as a benchmark for what a good dad is.
00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:54.080
And sometimes I don't know whether men feeling they can't be B and they can take on that role makes them even shrink more.
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:54.639
Yeah.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:56.399
Yeah, I agree.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:56.960
Yeah.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:02.960
And and uh in terms of the pressures, obviously, that there's all the pressures around.
00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:03.919
They there's so much.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:08.720
You turn on the TV, they're pressures, you turn on your radio, they're pressures.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:13.519
How do you approach discussing this with the fathers themselves?
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:13.919
Yeah.
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:22.000
Yeah, I think as I've coached a number of dads over the years, I've realized a lot of us want to jump straight to the solution, if you like the fix.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:25.279
So a lot of dads are asking, you know, how do I get my child to listen to me?
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.200
Or how do I get them to want to spend time with me?
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.120
How do I get them away from their screens?
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.720
And also but also reflecting at the same time that actually often when they're on themselves, on their feelings.
00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:39.279
And that's often what we do is we look at not just you can't control your children completely, can you?
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.919
But you can have more of an effect on how you show up.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:49.440
And a lot of the times if we're a bit frustrated or dysregulated or tired or strained, actually we need to notice that in ourselves.
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:54.399
And so that's where my framework in the book calm, confidence, and connection comes from.
00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:01.279
Calm is something that we bring, it's something that we've reflected on in ourselves of how we respond to our to our child.
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:07.600
And once you've kind of got that kind of base of the emotional temperature being settled in yourself, it's then the confidence.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:19.360
It's actually the confidence to know I have a role here, it's distinct, perhaps from their mums, and I may need to adapt that role, but I have a confidence that I bring something to the table that my children do actually need.
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:26.240
Because some dads will be like, Well, I just let my partner get on with it all because she can do everything, she can talk to them, she can empathize.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.440
And sometimes there's that confidence to say, no, no, you do bring something.
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.360
Yeah, you may get it wrong, and your partner may tell you, you know, oh, just you're getting it wrong.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:36.399
So, yeah, confidence, and then finally it's the connection.
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:48.960
It's actually, and that can be really ordinary, sitting alongside them, playing a game with them, just walking somewhere together, and and seeing opportunity just to build connection in ordinary moments, not necessarily in big events.
00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:54.879
So I I often talk dads through that process of calm, confidence, and connection in that order, really.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:04.639
I think that's so useful because I I've seen situations where the dads give up quite easily because they've seen a pattern and they might think, oh, he's always going to his mother when he needs this.
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.279
So he obviously doesn't think I can solve anything.
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:07.840
That's right.
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:15.200
And therefore that pattern just continues and the father just resigns to, well, he's not going to listen to me, he's going to listen to his mother.
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:29.039
Um that what we're saying now is so important because it just helps them to understand that yes, you may be doing it differently from the mom you're bringing something in and don't give up, just keep trying, you know, and look at different ways.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:36.399
I have seen situations where the fathers have given up quite easily and just think, well, I I can't do anything here.
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:42.320
And in a clinic setting, on that neurodivergent journey where they've come for an assessment.
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:50.720
And have you had the scenario where with I'm sure you probably have with the two parents there, where they're receiving that message quite differently.
00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:52.159
And what do you tend to see?
00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.919
What blind spots do you notice father's facing during this process?
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:57.759
Yeah, no, it's a really good question.
00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:04.960
I mean, I think there are often differences, and that can be very challenging just to manage a consultation depending on how the parents are getting on.
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.919
I mean, and I I really want to encourage parents to recognise the differences and to value those differences.
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:15.679
But one thing I I say in the book is back each other publicly and then talk it through privately.
00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:29.120
And so sometimes that might mean, you know, often we'll ask the young person maybe maybe to step out and obviously have time with them as well, but actually an opportunity to talk quite openly with how the parents are handling their disagreements and where those things might be coming from.
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:33.039
Because it's particularly fraught and challenging with with neurodivergent children.
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.639
The anger, the overwhelm, dysregulation, not having the words often to explain how they feel.
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.960
I mean, it it really takes it out of adults and strange relationships.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:56.320
And so I'm really passionate about supporting parents, whether they're living together or not, to yeah, to work together well, to at value one another and value what each one on brings and to be united in front of the children.
00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.960
Yeah, so it's sometimes I've had the very heated moment with the parents.
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:28.320
I think that's the one I usually struggle with, with trying to get them to realize that there's a child in the middle and that those differences should not be displayed in front of the child, because the child I've had situations where the child is very distressed because of the disagreements in the room which have become very loud and vocal, and for a moment I think the parents kind of forget that how much that is impacting on the child.
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:44.480
And I do try to use that opportunity to get usually when that happens, I get the child out of the room, I get a nurse to be with the child because I just think it's unfair for the child to be listening to such verbal disagreements in the room.
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:52.399
And I do try with the few moments I have to actually talk through to them about the impact that it's having.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:02.799
There's a a recent incident where I say to parents, even if the child is non-verbal or not communicating, they are perceiving what is going on.
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:13.839
And I've seen situations where you know that has impacted a child significantly, and the behaviour is different when parents separate and the same child is seen again.
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:22.160
It's just amazing how much difference you can actually see within a clinic setting on the impact of disagreements on a child.
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.799
How do you get them to work as a unified team during this period?
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:27.759
It's very difficult.
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:36.799
I mean, sometimes we'll ask them about them themselves, about their own health, because there's no doubt that the pressure and stress on an adult and the strain on just on you individually.
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:46.640
So making sure that you're okay and that actually each one of you has got those people that you can go to as parents, as as individuals, to go and actually vent to or to go and get support for.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.440
It might be going to your GP, counselling, whatever it is.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:54.480
And then asking them what they do for for each other in terms of a l giving each other space.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:02.319
So obviously, not every couple's together, but where people are together, I I sometimes will talk about whether their needs as a couple are being met.
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:07.920
Because I think a lot of the focus is rightly often on the child and on putting them at the centre of this.
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:13.279
And I often hear parents say that that it's all about them, and I just you know it's not about me, it's all about them.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:32.480
And I will sometimes politely correct them actually and say, Yeah, it is all about the child, but actually it's so important that you have a strong relationship, and that's good for you, but it's also good for your children that you have a strong relationship because actually, if we're kind of fractured and if we're not on the same page, if we're not making time for one another, then it it doesn't help our kids real.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:39.599
So we'll sometimes just talk a bit about what they're doing together, which yeah, can be getting into more of a couple's counselling area, I have to be careful of that.
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:46.000
But that's sometimes what people need is just to step back and realize, wow, actually we want to be a team here and we're not at the moment.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:55.279
And I think sometimes as medics, we have a the ability just to call it out gently, politely, uh, and make some suggestions for them as adults as well, because it's it's hard.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:11.680
It is, and I think that's one of the difficulties with the pressured consultations we have, is that it leaves very little time um to be able to have a proper connection with them and get to the underlying um issues behind what is causing the freaking.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:24.240
Like I say, it can be quite overwhelming on a day-to-day basis for either parent, you know, navigating, looking after a neurodivergent child and all that that brings.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.119
So having to deal with the day-to-day can be really challenging.
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.079
And I think being able to take a step back is really good.
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.640
What what tends to happen during your coaching?
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.279
How do you run your programs for them?
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:44.720
Yeah, so coaching was a revelation to me because I have always been fascinated what sits underneath the presenting problem.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.240
Like what do people actually believe?
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.279
What are they worried about?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.559
What are they not saying here?
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.359
And I think that's just that's the whole psychology, isn't it, of medicine?
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.880
It's lovely when you go in and you treat someone with asthma and they get better and go home.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:56.240
But that's quite straightforward.
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.759
It's much more difficult when you throw in real people and real issues.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:03.920
And the the difference, the challenges as a clinician, though, is often we go in and give an answer, right?
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.160
So we go in, we diagnose the asthma, you treat it.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.839
Or in our world, it might be, well, we're here for our expertise, and here's a diagnosis, and here's what you need to do about it.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:19.680
But coaching's quite different because clinical medicine says you're the expert, you know, I'm the expert, and uh they're the patient, if you like.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.359
Although we're trying to work away from a paternalistic angle on that.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.480
But coaching says actually that this person is the expert in their life.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:38.960
My job isn't to rush in and give the answer, it's to to listen, to ask good questions, sometimes challenge them so that they can see something that they haven't seen before.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.359
And when I started doing this, I did think initially, I thought that's a bit wishy-washy, really.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:45.519
Sometimes we just need to say it as it is.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:55.119
But I was stunned at the way that when people discover something about themselves rather than being given some advice by somebody else, there's much more ownership.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:06.240
And actually, statistically, people are far more likely to follow through on something if they've actually wrestled it, thought it through, connected to their own values, um, and actually come up with the answers themselves.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:17.279
So, coaching is about really creating a space, an environment to help people think more clearly, to not judge them, and to take responsibility rather than sit and say, I need someone to tell me what to do.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.559
I'm a helpless dad.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.640
I just need this expert to come and help me.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:26.559
It's completely flit, and it's saying, no, you're the expert in your child, you know, you're the dad, I'm not.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.000
And actually, you you've got this, and I'm here just to help draw out of you what's already in there.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:40.799
So, yeah, I guess I'd frame it as consulting is about me helping you solve a problem, whereas coaching is about helping you become better at solving your own problems.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:41.519
Problems.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.200
Yeah, so that's kind of how I see it.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.680
I mean, how does that resonate with your own this isn't?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.160
Definitely, yeah, I completely agree.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:59.759
And I think that, you know, that prescriptive way of dealing with things and telling people this is what you need to do is not sustainable because yes, they try it for one or two times and then it falls apart because they haven't gone.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.079
Deeply into themselves to actually unpick what they need to change because the answers come from them.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.960
So that I completely agree with that approach and the clarity.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:17.200
And I think that's the problem with clinical medicine is that we've got a prescription that is one size fits all.
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:18.799
No, this is what you need to do.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.039
So we see this family, everybody needs to do X, Y, Z.
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.599
And that's what I struggle with because everybody's not the same.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.559
What you've said for A cannot apply to B.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:37.680
So we have to look at what is going to work for them, and they're the best people to come up with what is going to work for them.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.480
So I completely agree with that.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:42.400
Yeah.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.559
I was just going to say, I think that somebody might be listening thinking, I've got one hour, if I'm a clinician, I've got an hour or 90 minutes, whatever it is you've got.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.440
How on earth do you do it?
00:22:49.599 --> 00:23:06.640
Now, of course, we're talking a bit there about coaching outside, but I think we can also bring that into our consultation sometimes, just to just with one or two questions, just to open up, you know, so out of all the things you've heard, what you might say to a parent, you know, what what is one thing that you think might be help might be helpful here?
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.200
Um and we can just ask sometimes a couple of questions.
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:16.079
It just reminds them that actually they're the expert in their life and that they can actually go and reflect on what they might want to do next.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.640
And we can do that just with one or two little questions, I think, in a short clinical space.
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.200
But then of course they yeah, they may need some further coaching outside.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.119
I think that's really helpful.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:42.079
That's really helpful advice for clinicians because sometimes when the problems are placed on the table, the clinician is still trying to work out how to navigate, making sure that they've gotten all the information they need to, and they're thinking, okay, how am I going to deal with this other issue?
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:46.000
So I think clinicians themselves need to think about.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:55.519
I think we need to make a conscious effort to think about the fact that it's not just the child and the assessment and the diagnosis, it's what else is going on around the child.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:09.119
It's the family, it's how parents perceive what is going on, because I have found that that has a lot of impact on that child's needs and that child's progress as well.
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.240
Yeah, agree.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:20.799
And so we know that many men just feel so isolated in conversations, and some of them are very hesitant to seek help.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:25.920
So, how do you help them break that reluctance and shift their stance?
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:42.160
Yeah, just to say, I mean, I've I've listed them at the back of my book because I've did have lots of conversations and lots of research on, you know, dad organizations, and we've got some great ones just very locally to us who are doing brilliant work in just reaching dads in schools socially to bring them together.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.759
And that's a big part of it, is dads often feel we often feel we're on our own.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.720
We often feel that we're failing and everyone else is doing fine because social media life just looks so wonderful.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.480
We'll just come back from holidays and everyone's so happy on their holidays.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.000
But then they're having a huge explosion shouting at their kids or something.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:03.440
So there's a lot of internalized failure or grieving, like the life they imagined it would be.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:09.440
This would be a wonderful family life, but actually life's just really difficult and constantly the the house is just tense.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.839
And so I think a lot of men are feeling that a lot of men are reluctant to come forward.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:15.440
I don't think that's because they don't care.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.799
Um, and then we just gotta be wary of like saying that just because men are reluctant means they don't care.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.400
A lot of men feel that asking for help means that that they're admitting failure.
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:32.000
And if your identity is tied up with being a competent person, I am competent, I can do things, I fix things, then that's really hard to do.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:37.279
So if a dad is reaching out for help or is or is willing to speak, that's a huge step.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:44.480
Even if they just say one thing in your clinic that just you you you feel that was that's really probably quite brave for them to do.
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:46.240
And so dads are very sensitive to that.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:52.880
And I very much try to write and communicate in a way which doesn't sort of say, here's what you're doing wrong, because we hear that all the time as dads.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.519
We don't need someone else telling us how it's going wrong, but actually to ask a more open question.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:25:59.200
So, what was difficult at the moment?
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:04.720
And that's a question I often start with, either one-to-one or in clinic, you know, what are you finding most challenging?
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.920
And dads are more likely to open up when they're not not being judged.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:16.880
And so I think that's why dads need groups, they need the conversations together, hopefully things like I'm writing to recognise it's not just me, other dads struggle with this too.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:23.359
And I can actually move from feeling ashamed to being curious about things, and then I can potentially change as a result.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:37.359
It's it's making me also reflect on our role as clinicians and how there's a tendency to even during consultations to revert to the mother who's providing you the information.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:43.359
And sometimes the dad could just, when he comes, he could just sit down there and not really not say anything.
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:58.880
And just as clinicians, what our role is to make sure that we're hearing the other side and hearing the that side and actively engaging them in the conversations because many dads will not jump in to provide the information in that setting.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.599
They would sit down, but it doesn't mean they don't care.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:05.839
And so, what would you advise for clinicians, obviously, with the work that you're doing?
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:07.680
Yeah, I completely agree with what you said.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:18.720
I mean, I think obviously when the when the dad is there, it's about giving him the opportunity to speak because often it will be, oh, I don't know, I wasn't there, but actually saying, I really want to hear what you've got.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:24.880
Your perspective is important, it might be a bit different, but it's really vital that I hear I hear you.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.519
And if they're not there, it's where we can, giving an opportunity for dad to feed in.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:39.359
So if it's beforehand, we ask parents as much as possible to complete forms together to get all perspectives and maybe other important adults in this child's life as well, of course.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.640
So getting their contribution before the before the appointment.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:56.000
And sometimes I will write in a letter, if I picked up that there's some hesitation from from dad, that I will say, Look, I know that dad wasn't here in clinic, but I'm very happy to speak to him by by phone after the appointment once you've digested the report.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.440
Um, because there is that challenging area around parental responsibility, isn't there?
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:05.039
When you're giving a diagnosis, particularly if you're speaking to mum and you know that dad is a bit reluctant about it.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.480
Yeah, just even from a clinical position, I sometimes think, goodness, you know, yeah, this is about both parents.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.799
And if dad's not on board now, then that really will affect the outcome for this child.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:22.000
Because if there's inconsistencies and a dad's dismissing things, then actually that's not good for the child.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.720
And we can see it's easy to sit and blame the dad and say, well, he should just get on, get with the programme.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:34.319
But for reasons that we've said, you know, dads are often are a bit further behind in that process because they haven't often been considering it as long.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:35.519
Not always, but but sometimes.
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.200
So I think we need to do our best to help them, and that will help the child as well.
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.519
But it's challenging with the lack of time we've got.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.880
Yeah, but I think you've made a great point, John.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:53.279
I think that we need to look at the process from the beginning in terms of collecting that information from that.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:02.640
Because I've had situations where the assessment has gone on and the mother's probably said, no, dad is not he's not involved and all that.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.480
And sometimes the fathers have contacted afterwards to say, I very much want to be part of this process.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.920
Could you let me know?
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:10.720
You understand?
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:27.680
And and I think that it is important to take that step before then to see make sure that even if the dad is not in the picture, but he's somewhere and it's got some connection with that child, that we should get his perspective, his information as well.
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.599
I think it's equally important.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:37.119
And even in the process of the diagnosis, like you said, that you're happy to speak to the dad if you know after they've written the report.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:42.480
I think that's that's definitely good practice that I would say clinicians should reflect.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:59.119
Because the way the clinician responds to the dad during that consultation could either make or break that, because if they feel that they're being ignored or not included in the conversations, it could reinforce the thinking that he they're not wanted here.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:05.759
So as clinicians, I think we have the responsibility to make sure that you know they're included in that process.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.039
Yeah, I agree.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.960
So, and telling us about a bit more about your book, Connected Dad.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.200
So it's out now, is it?
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.240
It is, yeah, it is, yeah, exciting.
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:24.720
That's that's fantastic, and it must have been it must have been very rewarding.
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:29.039
I mean, uh writing a book is lovely, but it can be challenging as well.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.079
You know, I'm writing a few books and it is it is This is my first one in Yang.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.799
If anyone had told me what it was really like, I probably wouldn't have done it.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:42.480
I'm actually probably glad they didn't, because I started off thinking, oh, this is great, and I love thinking and writing down my thoughts.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.480
And by the end of the hundredth edit, I just it was awful.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:50.160
But it's out now, it's done, and I'm just so yeah, I'm so pleased.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:31:02.240
And I think that just yeah, it's lovely to have it out there, but in a way, it's I feel as the beginning of a conversation because actually it's not about okay, I'm gonna read something and put it on the shelf, but actually, how do we really think about Fatherhead?
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:03.599
How might I make some changes?
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:14.079
And so I'm continuing to think about this, I'm continuing to to write and to to blog, blogging through my thoughts on Substack and uh lots of avenues to take it with, really.
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:23.119
But I think that getting getting dads together and talking, whether it's around the book or pointing to the other fantastic you know organizations who do these things is what I'm really keen on.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:24.319
Working with dads' groups.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:31.440
I've had a few people who run dads groups to say I've seen your book and I've read it and it's just what we need, and we're gonna go through it together.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:54.720
So that's really exciting to I think it's I'm excited as well because, like I said to you, it's something that's missing throughout all my career when seeing children and knowing that dads have an important role, dads not being part of the conversations in the room, dads just not knowing what to do and therefore standing aside sometimes.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:03.119
I think having a good grounded conversation and being able to get a resource like your book is really important.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:07.359
So well done for for writing this and taking this on.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.680
And and tell us about your platform.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.759
Obviously, there are other resources that you're looking at for families.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.920
Yeah, so I'm very much thinking about the whole family at the moment.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:25.359
So I'm just beginning to think and write a bit more about family culture because obviously, obviously, dads feed into that, but obviously we we do that as well.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:35.119
I do some one-to-one coaching with dads and sometimes with uh with a couple together, which is uh really fun, but obviously quite limited due to my clinical commitments.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:50.799
I've just literally just today I could um we've signed a contract with uh Jessica Kingsley Publishers to write uh a book, co-authoring that with a colleague, and it'll be called While You Wait, and it's about supporting families and children who are waiting for an ADHD and autism assessment.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.440
So that'll be out next year, um, which is exciting.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:54.319
Fantastic.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.000
Yeah, I'm really excited by that.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:02.160
And uh yeah, so I basically I blog on my website and on Substack and uh yeah, just enjoying doing that really.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.680
And if it helps people a little bit, then that's that's really encouraging.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.519
Fantastic, very good.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.799
Well, I'm usually so pleased with the clinicians when when we step outside the room.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:13.200
Yeah.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.920
Step outside the four walls of the room.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:23.759
And and it just always gladdens my heart because I just feel we are getting the messages out there.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:29.119
And I think when I started doing the uh podcast, I didn't really know the direction.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:31.680
I just knew that I wanted my voice out there.
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:42.000
My voice out there to carry, to talk more about the things that I was bothering, yeah, was signposting families, signposting people to things that they needed to do.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:50.880
And because I just knew the clinic, the way it was, I mean, it's even getting worse because we're getting even less time and the focus is on things.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:59.759
So I'm just saying that going on all the time, but I just feel that we should we should be getting our voices out there and all that.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.440
So I'm really pleased and congrats on your sign-ups.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:14.559
It's so interesting because I I've been doing a series for par parents called Waiting Well and just yeah, yeah, and it's just what they do for the different conditions while they're waiting for.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.079
So it's it's really, really good because that's what we need.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.360
We people shouldn't be waiting for five years for an ADHD.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:26.480
I know, I know, waiting for this this answer, but actually, yeah, it's like it's happening now, isn't it?
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.519
Which is exactly, which is no answer because you tell them, yes, your child's got a diagnosis, so what?
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:32.159
So what else?
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.519
So what yeah, exactly.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.119
Yeah, so well done.
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.400
Well done.
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:41.199
Yeah, so where can people find you, John, for our guest?
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:50.159
And yeah, so I mean I'm uh I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, my Instagram handle is at tallmedic because what you can't see is that I'm very tall and I'm a medic.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.880
But video and uh and audio is a great leveler, literally.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.519
But I'm very tall and I don't play basketball.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:10.480
But so at tall medic, and then I'm on Substack at John Greenall, and uh my website is connected hyphen dad.com, and that's where my my blog is and linked to more information about book and coaching and things like that.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:11.840
Well, thank you so much.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.360
It's been wonderful having you on our podcast.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:26.079
And for for our audience out there, Connected Dad is available, and you can get a copy, and you can go on John's site where he outlines everything that he does.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:31.199
And it's just important that this very important topic is being looked into.
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:41.360
And there are dads, many dads out there who will be listening to this podcast to to let you know that we do see you, we do we do know that you care.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:47.119
Yeah, and uh we want you to be included in the conversations from assessments on.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:57.519
I know it doesn't usually seem that way, sometimes in clinic, but yes, we do see you, and it will be good for you to uh connect with us.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.880
John is doing a great work, he's got a platform.
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:14.880
Please feel free to connect with his resources and his platform, and I'm sure that hopefully we will get you know more dads doing great work out there and supporting other dads as well.
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:17.920
Thank you, thanks for having me.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.599
Thanks for all you're doing in the space, it's it's inspirational and much needed.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:22.960
So, yeah, keep up the good work.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:23.360
Thank you.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.119
Thank you, thank you so much.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:25.679
Thank you.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.800
As we always say, early intervention leads to better outcome.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:35.920
And early intervention can only be achieved by early diagnosis.
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.559
So thank you for listening into the series today.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:47.039
Um, I know some of the things we've talked about today would probably have generated some questions or need to see clarification.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:56.719
So I'm happy to take questions, and I'll invite you to send your questions to EIM at drtakon.com.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:58.559
Thank you for listening.
