What high-performing countries are doing in maths. With Liana McCurry

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,120
Music.
2
00:00:06,961 --> 00:00:12,161
Welcome to Discastia, a podcast for parents and teachers about the best way
3
00:00:12,161 --> 00:00:14,061
to support kids living with learning difficulties.
4
00:00:14,601 --> 00:00:17,081
I'm Michael Shanahan. And I'm Liana McCurry.
5
00:00:17,721 --> 00:00:21,381
I always do that, don't I? And I mean to do it. I'm Bill Hansberry.
6
00:00:21,481 --> 00:00:22,541
Sorry, everyone. I'm Bill.
7
00:00:22,861 --> 00:00:25,881
Thank you, Bill. And I'm Liana McCurry. Yes, she is.
8
00:00:26,301 --> 00:00:30,141
Welcome, Liana. Thank you both for helping me remember names.
9
00:00:30,461 --> 00:00:35,161
Thank you, Mike. And we're casting to you today from the lands of the Kaurna people.
10
00:00:35,241 --> 00:00:41,081
We are. We are. And we want to, like always, pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
11
00:00:42,221 --> 00:00:48,221
And I do want to acknowledge that this has always been, is and always will be Kaurna land.
12
00:00:49,021 --> 00:00:53,581
And I think we need to also acknowledge that colonisation and dispossession
13
00:00:53,581 --> 00:00:57,421
are both, sadly, ongoing processes. Thank you, Bill.
14
00:00:58,221 --> 00:01:01,501
Liana, welcome back. Thank you very much for having me again.
15
00:01:01,901 --> 00:01:07,121
We had to have you again. Oh, we've been waiting. And people listening,
16
00:01:07,201 --> 00:01:11,421
if you haven't listened to our previous episode, you really do need to listen
17
00:01:11,421 --> 00:01:16,281
to that in conjunction with this. Probably not before. You can listen to this one first.
18
00:01:16,381 --> 00:01:21,261
But Liana had a fantastic episode with us last year where she shared her scope
19
00:01:21,261 --> 00:01:23,761
and sequence and insights into teaching maths.
20
00:01:24,141 --> 00:01:28,421
And that's where she let us know that she was going on a Churchill Fellowship
21
00:01:28,421 --> 00:01:35,341
research research study tour to work out how the best countries in the world teach maths.
22
00:01:35,841 --> 00:01:39,241
And we said we wanted to get you back when you're finished and you've done it.
23
00:01:39,341 --> 00:01:42,781
I have. I have gone. I can't believe that it's been done.
24
00:01:42,981 --> 00:01:47,221
It's amazing. But yes, so my project idea was looking at best maths practices
25
00:01:47,221 --> 00:01:51,401
in countries who perform consistently well in the PISA assessment.
26
00:01:51,461 --> 00:01:56,021
So I went to Singapore who consistently perform at number one.
27
00:01:56,654 --> 00:02:01,914
I visited Japan, I visited Finland, which was an interesting one because they
28
00:02:01,914 --> 00:02:04,074
are very highly regarded in the world of education.
29
00:02:04,334 --> 00:02:07,774
However, they have actually declined at the same rate as Australia.
30
00:02:08,054 --> 00:02:12,914
So they are doing research over there into what has caused that decline as well.
31
00:02:13,094 --> 00:02:18,234
I went to Estonia. So Estonia is one that surprises people a lot of the time.
32
00:02:18,354 --> 00:02:23,694
So the first seven countries in the results are Asian countries or provinces
33
00:02:23,694 --> 00:02:28,454
in Asia, and Estonia is the first non-Asian country on the list.
34
00:02:28,854 --> 00:02:31,774
Wasn't Encino Man from Estonia? He was indeed.
35
00:02:32,954 --> 00:02:37,314
We's the juice. That's the one. I don't know that. You don't know that reference?
36
00:02:37,694 --> 00:02:40,534
Yes, yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.
37
00:02:40,774 --> 00:02:46,174
And then from Estonia, I went to Vancouver in Canada and the reason that I went
38
00:02:46,174 --> 00:02:51,654
there was because Canada was the first predominantly English-speaking country
39
00:02:51,654 --> 00:02:56,734
on the list And they ranked at 12th overall, whereas Australia ranked 30th overall.
40
00:02:56,954 --> 00:03:02,494
So this is the whole idea behind it is because back in when PISA started in
41
00:03:02,494 --> 00:03:06,014
2000, 2003, we ranked 10th overall in the world.
42
00:03:06,114 --> 00:03:09,454
We then into 2018 ranked 30th overall.
43
00:03:09,654 --> 00:03:13,914
So we have had a massive decline and particularly in the area of maths.
44
00:03:14,174 --> 00:03:22,014
So after Vancouver, I did visit Hawaii, which also America isn't a high performing country.
45
00:03:22,014 --> 00:03:25,334
However there are pockets that are doing great things
46
00:03:25,334 --> 00:03:28,334
and Hawaii is where Ron
47
00:03:28,334 --> 00:03:31,374
Yoshimoto who is an Orton Gillingham master
48
00:03:31,374 --> 00:03:34,394
is from and so he has worked with a lot of schools over
49
00:03:34,394 --> 00:03:37,254
there so I was able to visit a school that he'd worked
50
00:03:37,254 --> 00:03:40,134
with they're all been trained in their literacy and they have very strong
51
00:03:40,134 --> 00:03:43,114
maths practices and I was able to visit Montessori school
52
00:03:43,114 --> 00:03:48,894
over in Maui as well so wow it was an incredible experience and Hawaii was a
53
00:03:48,894 --> 00:03:52,874
lovely place to finish on that's for sure that's amazing terrible place yeah
54
00:03:52,874 --> 00:04:00,314
I know and so those just I just had a quick question about those PISA scores and the fact that we have.
55
00:04:01,011 --> 00:04:04,791
So dramatically dropped in such a short period of time.
56
00:04:05,051 --> 00:04:11,131
I'm wondering if you know whether we have declined or whether other people have got better?
57
00:04:11,591 --> 00:04:15,811
We have declined. We have declined, right. So, in 2018, for the first time,
58
00:04:15,831 --> 00:04:17,391
so there is OECD average.
59
00:04:17,531 --> 00:04:24,811
So, about 80-odd countries perform in the PISA assessment, and there is an average score.
60
00:04:24,991 --> 00:04:27,891
So, in 2018, for the first time, we fell below the average.
61
00:04:28,151 --> 00:04:32,311
Okay. So, and, you know, America's interesting as well because America's obviously
62
00:04:32,311 --> 00:04:33,411
not a top performing country.
63
00:04:33,531 --> 00:04:37,551
However, they have stayed consistently the same over that 20-year period.
64
00:04:37,751 --> 00:04:41,231
So, the wheels have come off in Australia. Yes, definitely.
65
00:04:41,911 --> 00:04:47,091
So, and I think, and what we talked about in the last podcast as well is that
66
00:04:47,091 --> 00:04:50,851
idea of constructivism that is, you know, was taught at uni.
67
00:04:50,891 --> 00:04:54,611
Certainly, when I went through, SAXA had started here in South Australia,
68
00:04:54,711 --> 00:04:56,031
which was a constructivist approach.
69
00:04:56,391 --> 00:04:59,271
So, remind us what that means. What is a constructivist approach?
70
00:04:59,531 --> 00:05:03,311
So, it is about the students constructing their learning. It's very inquiry-based.
71
00:05:03,451 --> 00:05:07,231
It's very, you know, the students need to discover the knowledge for themselves.
72
00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:13,411
And I think that the research has really, I guess, caught up or we're listening
73
00:05:13,411 --> 00:05:16,951
more to the research where that approach has not worked.
74
00:05:17,251 --> 00:05:22,931
It shows in our results and we need to move to a more explicit instruction approach.
75
00:05:23,251 --> 00:05:26,671
Can I just pull the threads on constructivism just a bit longer?
76
00:05:27,331 --> 00:05:32,191
So, was that the one that some people refer to as a failed educational experiment
77
00:05:32,191 --> 00:05:35,191
in Australia, the whole constructivist notion? Is that?
78
00:05:36,309 --> 00:05:39,869
I'm not sure. Because I've heard it tied to balance literacy and whole language.
79
00:05:40,049 --> 00:05:45,529
So, constructivism is – because it actually really changes what the teacher's
80
00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:47,709
role is if you teach in a constructivist way.
81
00:05:47,889 --> 00:05:55,089
It is the student building new knowledge onto their own experience of the world.
82
00:05:55,089 --> 00:05:57,069
It was very heavily based on prior knowledge.
83
00:05:57,249 --> 00:06:01,269
Yeah. Which also creates issues between your high socioeconomic and your low
84
00:06:01,269 --> 00:06:02,409
socioeconomic because,
85
00:06:02,649 --> 00:06:06,049
you know, know, depending on what's happening in the home, depending on,
86
00:06:06,049 --> 00:06:11,949
you know, their experiences can create a big discrepancy there in the experience
87
00:06:11,949 --> 00:06:14,669
that they're bringing and then the experience that they're able to build onto.
88
00:06:15,049 --> 00:06:20,269
So, in a constructivist learning model, the teacher is not so much teaching,
89
00:06:20,329 --> 00:06:24,469
they're more directing and the students are picking up from a point of their
90
00:06:24,469 --> 00:06:26,829
understanding and their prior knowledge on something?
91
00:06:26,909 --> 00:06:30,949
Yes. It was very much about the teacher being the facilitator of the learning
92
00:06:30,949 --> 00:06:36,429
rather than, I I guess that, yeah, guide on the side, notion. Yes, yes, exactly.
93
00:06:36,829 --> 00:06:41,489
So, kind of as a student, what you come with is your starting,
94
00:06:41,569 --> 00:06:46,309
you know, your starting point limits how far you can progress because the whole
95
00:06:46,309 --> 00:06:50,049
system is relying on you having some sort of knowledge to begin with. Exactly, yes.
96
00:06:50,129 --> 00:06:55,089
And I think, Bill, you were mentioning to me on the way here that your experience
97
00:06:55,089 --> 00:06:58,409
in childhood was that you didn't get maths. No.
98
00:06:58,569 --> 00:07:02,549
And your parents didn't either. And so, you didn't have an environment at home
99
00:07:02,549 --> 00:07:06,709
where you could develop your math skills and bring those to school.
100
00:07:06,829 --> 00:07:08,969
So, you'd kind of be an example there.
101
00:07:09,229 --> 00:07:12,169
I'd be a brain surgeon if both my parents had been math teachers. That's right.
102
00:07:12,309 --> 00:07:16,749
You know, a kid coming to the school with very little knowledge to begin with
103
00:07:16,749 --> 00:07:21,009
or perhaps even misconceptions about maths. Yes. And math.
104
00:07:21,582 --> 00:07:25,702
Kind of having to have that as their starting point rather than helping them,
105
00:07:25,762 --> 00:07:29,522
you know, the teacher bringing them up to a certain level, you know,
106
00:07:29,522 --> 00:07:33,542
with what I think we're going to be talking about today, which is how do we go about that?
107
00:07:33,662 --> 00:07:38,862
How do we go about increasing kids' knowledge and not just relying on them solving
108
00:07:38,862 --> 00:07:40,922
the problems or discovering it for themselves?
109
00:07:41,322 --> 00:07:45,322
So, within a constructivist framework, the teacher's job is very different.
110
00:07:45,322 --> 00:07:51,502
Am I right in assuming the teacher has to try and pick up on where 25, 30 kids are,
111
00:07:51,662 --> 00:07:58,302
teach in quite a broad investigative way where each of those 25 or 30 brains
112
00:07:58,302 --> 00:08:03,162
can kind of jump off from where they're at, but where they're at is so very different.
113
00:08:03,582 --> 00:08:07,522
That is true. And I think as well, we've all seen it, we've all done it.
114
00:08:07,762 --> 00:08:11,302
Who stood in front of a class and said, who can tell me about this?
115
00:08:11,362 --> 00:08:14,502
Or who knows about this? you're going to have the same you
116
00:08:14,502 --> 00:08:17,482
know if you're lucky five kids who are going to answer you every time
117
00:08:17,482 --> 00:08:20,322
and then the rest of your children are sitting there because they don't
118
00:08:20,322 --> 00:08:24,182
have the knowledge so then they can't engage in the conversation which kind
119
00:08:24,182 --> 00:08:28,182
of becomes double whammy for kids living with learning difficulties because
120
00:08:28,182 --> 00:08:32,682
often their parents do as well yes and i know you know from my personal experience
121
00:08:32,682 --> 00:08:38,522
living with dyslexia and having kids that live with dyslexia was like you you know,
122
00:08:38,602 --> 00:08:41,162
I couldn't give them any support.
123
00:08:41,742 --> 00:08:46,702
Yeah. And so they would have come to school with less knowledge than your typical
124
00:08:46,702 --> 00:08:52,582
kid, not just because they live with dyslexia but because their parent did as well. Yeah, yeah.
125
00:08:52,742 --> 00:08:56,622
And so, yeah, it's kind of double whammy, isn't it? Yes, it is.
126
00:08:56,742 --> 00:09:02,222
You know, it would do, kids who come to school with a lot of prior knowledge would do well. Yes.
127
00:09:02,722 --> 00:09:06,442
And like you say, you know, they'd be the same five people putting their hand
128
00:09:06,442 --> 00:09:10,942
up in the class and solving the problem. Well, the other kids kind of sit there and think I'm dumb.
129
00:09:11,122 --> 00:09:14,702
Or they think that, absolutely, or they think there and think,
130
00:09:14,742 --> 00:09:17,682
oh, I'm just going to sit quiet because that kid's answering everything.
131
00:09:17,702 --> 00:09:19,662
I'm not going to put my two cents worth in.
132
00:09:19,782 --> 00:09:25,382
And then, you know, I'm at a site where we have 70% EALD, so 70% as an English
133
00:09:25,382 --> 00:09:27,222
additional language or dialect.
134
00:09:27,482 --> 00:09:31,382
So a lot of our students go home to parents who don't speak the language,
135
00:09:31,842 --> 00:09:34,842
like they don't speak English, they speak an additional language,
136
00:09:34,902 --> 00:09:37,602
and so they can't help their children either.
137
00:09:38,202 --> 00:09:42,182
So for some of our students or a lot of our students they're only getting english
138
00:09:42,182 --> 00:09:48,222
here at school so there's that that they're also contending with as well and particularly,
139
00:09:49,570 --> 00:09:55,450
get my words out, depending on where they've come from will depend on the experience they've had.
140
00:09:56,470 --> 00:10:03,010
We're talking a lot of trauma-based problems and so maths was not the priority.
141
00:10:05,770 --> 00:10:10,550
So for them, if we're asking them to bring their prior knowledge and they don't
142
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:13,810
have any, exactly as you say, they're going to sit there feeling like, I don't get it.
143
00:10:13,850 --> 00:10:18,090
And we know that maths anxiety is a very real thing. and it happens from a very
144
00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:19,950
early age when you don't experience success.
145
00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:26,070
So, if we get it right from the get-go, then, you know, it's proven that they
146
00:10:26,070 --> 00:10:30,090
will have more success later on as they continue up through schooling.
147
00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:35,610
So, I know we have spoken, yeah. So, I know, I mean, that was a bit of a sidetrack, wasn't it?
148
00:10:35,610 --> 00:10:40,510
Yes, it was. But I think it's worth exploring because it kind of explains why
149
00:10:40,510 --> 00:10:44,230
perhaps we might be going backwards because if that's our approach,
150
00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:50,950
then it's no wonder kids are not progressing and picking up what they need to
151
00:10:50,950 --> 00:10:54,110
pick up because it's so complicated, isn't it?
152
00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:57,830
And, you know, you were talking about English as a second language and I was
153
00:10:57,830 --> 00:11:01,070
mentioning dyslexia, even though this is about maths.
154
00:11:01,230 --> 00:11:06,870
Maths is a second language. We know that language is a huge part of maths.
155
00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:11,130
Literacy is a huge part of maths and you can't succeed in maths alone.
156
00:11:11,626 --> 00:11:16,806
Without the literacy background. In fact, some of the most complex sentence
157
00:11:16,806 --> 00:11:20,826
structures that you will ever come across, you find in maths. You do.
158
00:11:21,346 --> 00:11:24,026
Not in English. I like that parallel.
159
00:11:24,886 --> 00:11:29,186
Or in NAPLAN in particular. That's where you find them. But yeah, exactly.
160
00:11:29,346 --> 00:11:33,426
Vocab is so important because, you know, when we're talking about change,
161
00:11:33,626 --> 00:11:36,386
often children hear the word change in science.
162
00:11:36,586 --> 00:11:39,806
You know, we change from a liquid to a solid, a solid to a gas.
163
00:11:39,986 --> 00:11:44,226
But when we're talking about change in terms of money, it's a completely different
164
00:11:44,226 --> 00:11:48,466
context and we can't assume that the kids are just going to pick that up.
165
00:11:48,586 --> 00:11:53,166
We have to explicitly explain what that means and that's why,
166
00:11:53,186 --> 00:11:57,446
you know, maths vocab has to be such a big part of instruction.
167
00:11:57,826 --> 00:12:02,586
We need to break it down and explain it. All right. So, we know you did not
168
00:12:02,586 --> 00:12:05,586
see constructivist-based pedagogical models.
169
00:12:05,726 --> 00:12:08,246
Teacher was at the front the whole time. Yes. Yes.
170
00:12:08,466 --> 00:12:13,346
And Liana, take us through, where do you want to start? Conclusions or recommendations?
171
00:12:14,126 --> 00:12:17,826
I'll start with my conclusions, I guess, from the experiences,
172
00:12:18,306 --> 00:12:24,026
you know, what I witnessed, what were the commonalities between each of the places that I went to?
173
00:12:24,426 --> 00:12:29,986
And I guess what I went in thinking I was going to see, I actually sort of came
174
00:12:29,986 --> 00:12:31,266
out with some different ideas.
175
00:12:31,326 --> 00:12:33,806
Okay. So, what were you thinking you were going to see?
176
00:12:33,906 --> 00:12:37,046
What was your kind of hypothesis or the thing you're investigating?
177
00:12:37,046 --> 00:12:41,746
So, I guess my thing was that I was going to see explicit instruction and use
178
00:12:41,746 --> 00:12:44,666
of multisensory materials, which I definitely did.
179
00:12:45,546 --> 00:12:51,726
However, a few countries in, I realized they were very fascinated by the fact
180
00:12:51,726 --> 00:12:53,686
that I was fascinated by textbooks.
181
00:12:54,206 --> 00:12:59,706
Every single country had textbooks in primary schools for all subjects.
182
00:13:00,046 --> 00:13:05,466
And so, the teachers not having to create textbooks.
183
00:13:06,324 --> 00:13:11,044
Those resources. They're there provided for them. And I think that here we have
184
00:13:11,044 --> 00:13:12,364
been sold a live autonomy.
185
00:13:12,764 --> 00:13:17,964
When you really break it down, it's actually not achievable because as a teacher,
186
00:13:18,024 --> 00:13:20,824
especially in a primary school, when you're teaching seven, eight subjects,
187
00:13:21,044 --> 00:13:25,004
I'm expected to read the curriculum, interpret the curriculum.
188
00:13:25,224 --> 00:13:27,444
We'll get into that in a bit as well.
189
00:13:27,684 --> 00:13:31,564
And then work out what I'm going to teach, what it's asking me to teach.
190
00:13:31,684 --> 00:13:32,884
Sometimes it's not clear.
191
00:13:33,344 --> 00:13:36,704
What am I going to teach? Now, I've got to break that down into lessons.
192
00:13:36,904 --> 00:13:40,104
How am I going to teach that? What resources do I need? How am I going to assess
193
00:13:40,104 --> 00:13:41,324
that? Creating assessments.
194
00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:46,024
And I'm expected to do that for a number of subjects.
195
00:13:47,304 --> 00:13:51,484
And often at 3 a.m. Exactly, because that's when your brain is working,
196
00:13:51,624 --> 00:13:54,924
right? You just said the lie of autonomy. I did.
197
00:13:56,104 --> 00:14:00,104
So, let's go there. Yeah, I know. It's a big statement, I think.
198
00:14:00,104 --> 00:14:03,584
Like I said, we're always into bold statements here. I've said it before.
199
00:14:04,224 --> 00:14:10,744
I just think that there has been this expectation of teachers having to create
200
00:14:10,744 --> 00:14:14,304
everything from scratch and it's been sold as autonomy.
201
00:14:14,564 --> 00:14:18,984
You have autonomy in your classroom. And I think that that's a lie because if
202
00:14:18,984 --> 00:14:21,984
we're working towards a curriculum, we're teaching children,
203
00:14:22,224 --> 00:14:24,124
we're all supposedly teaching the same thing.
204
00:14:24,124 --> 00:14:29,664
Why am I creating different resources to the person down the road?
205
00:14:29,804 --> 00:14:34,824
So why is a child at this school getting a different education from the child
206
00:14:34,824 --> 00:14:36,464
in the school down the road?
207
00:14:36,644 --> 00:14:41,124
Because I personally love maths and I love teaching maths.
208
00:14:41,324 --> 00:14:44,864
However, not everybody feels that way. So if you're not as confident,
209
00:14:45,124 --> 00:14:50,304
then perhaps the level to which you're teaching it, well well-intentioned is
210
00:14:50,304 --> 00:14:53,844
not as high a level as it needs to be.
211
00:14:54,104 --> 00:14:56,464
But we've been told, oh, but you have autonomy, right?
212
00:14:57,574 --> 00:15:00,894
So, you know, you make it up or why am I making it up?
213
00:15:01,254 --> 00:15:06,274
I don't think that that's right. And, you know, as a teacher walking in,
214
00:15:06,354 --> 00:15:15,594
had I had a textbook that told me what to teach, you know, so I met with a teacher in Estonia who, again,
215
00:15:15,774 --> 00:15:20,094
she was just fascinated by how fascinated I was by this textbook.
216
00:15:20,354 --> 00:15:24,954
And she said, because I have that, I don't have to worry about what to teach.
217
00:15:25,154 --> 00:15:27,274
I can worry about how to teach it.
218
00:15:27,574 --> 00:15:31,794
And that was such a powerful statement for me. Put down your glasses. Yeah, exactly.
219
00:15:32,094 --> 00:15:37,714
Because I thought we're so invested in the planning and the creating of the
220
00:15:37,714 --> 00:15:41,634
resources and the materials that often the delivery is lost,
221
00:15:41,854 --> 00:15:46,034
which is what they're able to focus on because the materials are there for them.
222
00:15:46,254 --> 00:15:50,514
Did you see any teachers using Teachers Pay Teachers or Twinkle resources on
223
00:15:50,514 --> 00:15:55,094
your travels? I did not because they had textbooks and programs that they had access to.
224
00:15:55,294 --> 00:16:00,914
Okay. So, and that's the thing, you know, that's not to say that they couldn't
225
00:16:00,914 --> 00:16:03,874
supplement things with their own activities,
226
00:16:04,094 --> 00:16:09,534
tasks that they had found, but the base was there for them that they weren't
227
00:16:09,534 --> 00:16:13,074
having to, because this is the other big part of the report.
228
00:16:13,974 --> 00:16:18,414
Curriculum is so important. And for us, you know, we have a content descriptor
229
00:16:18,414 --> 00:16:23,414
and then a number of elaborations and it's not clear in what you're teaching.
230
00:16:23,414 --> 00:16:25,934
So, if you're looking at reception, you're looking at maths,
231
00:16:26,014 --> 00:16:28,374
it's, you know, teach numbers to at least 20.
232
00:16:28,614 --> 00:16:31,534
Well, what does at least mean? That's autonomy, Liana, right there.
233
00:16:32,754 --> 00:16:36,194
Well, my at least is different to your at least. And, you know,
234
00:16:36,294 --> 00:16:38,874
and so, it's just not clear.
235
00:16:39,174 --> 00:16:43,094
And then, so, they're not having to interpret their curriculum.
236
00:16:43,374 --> 00:16:46,454
It is written. And the other thing is, for a lot of these countries,
237
00:16:46,614 --> 00:16:49,754
those textbooks are actually from, like, the department.
238
00:16:49,914 --> 00:16:51,334
The department pay for them. the
239
00:16:51,334 --> 00:16:56,394
department provide the schools with those resources and for a lot of them,
240
00:16:57,214 --> 00:17:00,834
Those textbooks, there were programs attached that they had,
241
00:17:00,934 --> 00:17:05,174
you know, online components that they could bring up, that they could talk through.
242
00:17:05,274 --> 00:17:11,234
So, it was an all-encompassing program and they often also offered professional
243
00:17:11,234 --> 00:17:14,374
learning and professional development around that as well.
244
00:17:14,554 --> 00:17:19,294
But it also means consistency within year levels, within whole schools,
245
00:17:19,534 --> 00:17:23,014
but then within schools across the whole country.
246
00:17:23,134 --> 00:17:27,274
We're talking lowered curriculum variance. Yes, exactly.
247
00:17:28,534 --> 00:17:33,274
This is how we overcome not just the school lottery, but the classroom lottery.
248
00:17:33,554 --> 00:17:37,094
Yes. And isn't it funny? We don't have to explain this to parents.
249
00:17:37,374 --> 00:17:41,334
They go, of course, that makes sense. But we're having to explain it to each other. Yeah.
250
00:17:42,354 --> 00:17:46,694
Anyway. Yes. Yes, exactly. And that's the thing. You know, I think that they're
251
00:17:46,694 --> 00:17:49,154
having the results that they're having because there is low variance.
252
00:17:49,394 --> 00:17:55,354
All of their schools are, you know, they're getting the same education level.
253
00:17:55,354 --> 00:17:57,054
They're getting the same resources.
254
00:17:57,254 --> 00:17:59,374
They're getting the same curriculum.
255
00:18:01,414 --> 00:18:07,254
Just kind of on a clarification of that because part of me, and perhaps this
256
00:18:07,254 --> 00:18:11,574
is because of the era in which I did my teacher training, part of me kind of
257
00:18:11,574 --> 00:18:13,554
goes, but I like that autonomy.
258
00:18:13,894 --> 00:18:16,854
Like, you know, you talk about being sold the lie of autonomy,
259
00:18:17,014 --> 00:18:21,534
I think, but I like having that autonomy as a teacher. I'm a professional.
260
00:18:22,114 --> 00:18:27,134
Yeah, and I think actually I really, you know, sometimes I see resources and
261
00:18:27,134 --> 00:18:29,634
I think that's terrible. I can do better than that.
262
00:18:29,754 --> 00:18:32,214
So, you just get to treat anyone however the hell they like,
263
00:18:32,234 --> 00:18:34,974
don't they? Yeah, you know, I make my resources...
264
00:18:35,924 --> 00:18:39,484
If I think they're better than the ones that are provided, for example.
265
00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:45,484
And so I'm just kind of wondering on a little bit of the more detail of that autonomy picture,
266
00:18:45,704 --> 00:18:51,764
what I'm picking up is it's not so much that is like a strict mandate,
267
00:18:51,864 --> 00:18:57,484
or is it, that you will teach this in this lesson and then this lesson,
268
00:18:57,544 --> 00:18:59,184
this lesson, you must not deviate.
269
00:18:59,264 --> 00:19:08,064
Was it like that or was it like- In some places it was. Here is all the resources you need to teach this.
270
00:19:08,184 --> 00:19:13,004
So you can choose to do nothing but use the provided resources.
271
00:19:13,284 --> 00:19:17,004
Yes. But was there a freedom there to say, but actually, you know,
272
00:19:17,044 --> 00:19:21,184
I've got a great lesson that I teach on X, Y, Z. Yes.
273
00:19:21,564 --> 00:19:26,464
I don't want to do this one. I want to do the one that I've always done because I know it's effective.
274
00:19:26,684 --> 00:19:30,824
Was there some autonomy there in what you saw? In some places,
275
00:19:30,944 --> 00:19:32,724
absolutely. But in some places not?
276
00:19:32,924 --> 00:19:39,424
In some places, I think that perhaps Singapore and Japan seemed quite more rigid,
277
00:19:39,444 --> 00:19:44,724
I guess, in following this to the letter. They also have a very tight curriculum.
278
00:19:45,304 --> 00:19:51,764
But then in Finland, Estonia, there was that, like, here's the resources, but you can add to that.
279
00:19:52,024 --> 00:19:56,544
That's your base. You can do more there. But I think the other thing is,
280
00:19:56,564 --> 00:20:01,204
this is what I want you to teach. You can have the autonomy,
281
00:20:01,284 --> 00:20:05,384
but you're not having to work out what to teach. So, here's the lesson.
282
00:20:05,624 --> 00:20:09,064
You want to do your own activity you want to do. That's fine.
283
00:20:09,204 --> 00:20:12,344
Throw in a joke or use a different example or whatever.
284
00:20:12,604 --> 00:20:16,904
Exactly. But here's the content. Yeah. This is the thing that I want you to
285
00:20:16,904 --> 00:20:19,604
teach. Okay. And that's different to our curriculum.
286
00:20:19,944 --> 00:20:25,364
I think ours is just far too open and too open to interpretation.
287
00:20:25,364 --> 00:20:31,244
And I think that it needs to be much more rigid and just the,
288
00:20:31,364 --> 00:20:34,644
like, we have elaborations within the Australian curriculum and,
289
00:20:34,684 --> 00:20:36,264
you know, the amount that you have to read.
290
00:20:36,464 --> 00:20:41,064
So, part of the report breaks down just an example from each of the curriculums
291
00:20:41,064 --> 00:20:44,984
from the places that I went to, like, here is ours and here is theirs.
292
00:20:45,124 --> 00:20:48,544
And a lot of the time, like, ours is just so wordy. Yeah. And so,
293
00:20:48,624 --> 00:20:52,544
theirs says so much more in much fewer sentences.
294
00:20:53,024 --> 00:20:57,724
Yep. So, I just think teachers want, well, what do you want me to teach?
295
00:20:57,884 --> 00:21:01,664
Like, I shouldn't have to read it and think, like, even as a confident maths
296
00:21:01,664 --> 00:21:05,384
teacher, I have read the curriculum and thought, I don't understand that.
297
00:21:05,444 --> 00:21:09,584
Like, what do you mean? What does that mean I teach? Yeah. Like,
298
00:21:09,664 --> 00:21:10,644
I don't know what to teach.
299
00:21:10,864 --> 00:21:13,264
Yeah. And even if you do understand it. Mm-hmm.
300
00:21:14,183 --> 00:21:19,823
There can probably be 10 valid different understandings of what it says.
301
00:21:19,943 --> 00:21:22,343
Yes, exactly. You know, even if you have a level of confidence that,
302
00:21:22,403 --> 00:21:24,563
oh, yeah, I know what they're getting at with that.
303
00:21:24,683 --> 00:21:28,383
Someone else may think the same thing, but actually they're talking two different
304
00:21:28,383 --> 00:21:30,783
things. Because it is very vague, isn't it? It is indeed.
305
00:21:31,003 --> 00:21:35,583
So, the Australian curriculum is loose and it's fluffy. I'm just going to go there.
306
00:21:36,643 --> 00:21:40,823
Ben Jensen, we talked about him last time we were together on episode 14,
307
00:21:40,923 --> 00:21:45,463
I think. He pretty much says the same thing in far more eloquent language.
308
00:21:46,103 --> 00:21:51,303
And the curriculum that you saw is much more prescriptive and descriptive.
309
00:21:52,063 --> 00:21:56,743
Teach this to this extent at this point. Yes. Right. Exactly. Yes.
310
00:21:56,883 --> 00:22:01,543
And this was number one on your conclusions and recommendations,
311
00:22:01,923 --> 00:22:03,123
wasn't it? Yes, it was. About curriculum.
312
00:22:03,303 --> 00:22:07,323
Yes. And so, now I think to myself, okay, I accept that.
313
00:22:07,423 --> 00:22:10,603
Yes, we've got a fluffy curriculum and it's difficult to deal with.
314
00:22:10,603 --> 00:22:14,683
And I accept that because I have difficulty dealing with it and understanding
315
00:22:14,683 --> 00:22:17,023
it and even just clicking through that website.
316
00:22:17,923 --> 00:22:22,763
It's so complicated. This is why teachers put it down and go to Drinkle.
317
00:22:22,903 --> 00:22:24,443
It's very tricky. Absolutely.
318
00:22:24,703 --> 00:22:28,723
And to be honest, I actually bought from Officeworks of all places,
319
00:22:28,783 --> 00:22:31,123
a little curriculum summary book. Right.
320
00:22:31,423 --> 00:22:34,303
And I've actually used that because it's like, oh, thank goodness,
321
00:22:34,403 --> 00:22:36,423
someone's explaining this to me. Yeah.
322
00:22:36,523 --> 00:22:39,483
You know, it was a commercial product, but it just broke down the maths curriculum.
323
00:22:39,483 --> 00:22:42,343
Beautifully, but I needed that.
324
00:22:42,843 --> 00:22:46,423
And so, but this is the curriculum we've got. Yes.
325
00:22:46,563 --> 00:22:50,103
And so, what can we do about that? So, you know, I'm teaching now,
326
00:22:50,203 --> 00:22:54,163
you're teaching now, that curriculum is not going to be changing anytime soon.
327
00:22:54,483 --> 00:22:59,663
So, did you pick up any kind of tips or tricks or advice that you could give
328
00:22:59,663 --> 00:23:04,943
teachers now to say, well, what can we do about that low variance?
329
00:23:05,103 --> 00:23:09,243
How can we combat that? I think, like you said, from the last podcast,
330
00:23:09,623 --> 00:23:14,743
I did give out, obviously, my sequences and then there's some breakdowns there of what to cover.
331
00:23:15,023 --> 00:23:18,103
But I think, you know, for anything to be effective, it has to be whole school.
332
00:23:18,303 --> 00:23:23,083
So, my first point would be, as a whole school, you need to sit down and go,
333
00:23:23,223 --> 00:23:27,403
okay, well, if we're teaching this here from reception, your next step is this
334
00:23:27,403 --> 00:23:30,943
and your next step is this and looking really at how it sequences.
335
00:23:31,463 --> 00:23:34,383
Because the other thing is there's a lot of assumption. assumption
336
00:23:34,383 --> 00:23:37,163
so you know we cannot assume that children
337
00:23:37,163 --> 00:23:39,983
understand that skip counting is multiplication you know is
338
00:23:39,983 --> 00:23:42,663
the beginning of multiplication so that needs to be
339
00:23:42,663 --> 00:23:45,543
explicitly taught so you know making those
340
00:23:45,543 --> 00:23:49,403
connections and saying okay well if we're doing this then we need to be making
341
00:23:49,403 --> 00:23:53,583
sure that before they do this they're doing this or you know after they've done
342
00:23:53,583 --> 00:23:58,563
this we need to explicitly explain these connections so looking at the connections
343
00:23:58,563 --> 00:24:04,863
and also I guess really really just honing in on like what's most important, what's most important.
344
00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:07,243
So, and like I was reading something and.
345
00:24:07,918 --> 00:24:13,498
Recently that said, you know, like conceptual development is super important in mathematics.
346
00:24:13,898 --> 00:24:18,098
However, it shouldn't be at the cost of procedural fluency. Right.
347
00:24:18,358 --> 00:24:22,838
So, procedural fluency is very important as well because as we know that when
348
00:24:22,838 --> 00:24:27,098
children move up, particularly to middle and upper primary, if they don't have
349
00:24:27,098 --> 00:24:31,658
procedural knowledge and if they don't have fact recall,
350
00:24:32,078 --> 00:24:34,078
then everything is much harder. harder.
351
00:24:34,258 --> 00:24:40,198
Because what should be automated is not, and it's using up working memory resources.
352
00:24:40,798 --> 00:24:45,278
Now, you said Japan was pretty big on fluency. Did I say that?
353
00:24:45,378 --> 00:24:50,738
Yeah, I think that Singapore and Japan in particular, very big on,
354
00:24:50,838 --> 00:24:55,098
so it was very clear that their children had the procedural fluency.
355
00:24:55,178 --> 00:24:56,378
They were good with the procedures.
356
00:24:56,618 --> 00:25:02,818
So, for Singapore, they were very big on the procedural fluency.
357
00:25:02,818 --> 00:25:05,798
Kids had that. they knew that but what they
358
00:25:05,798 --> 00:25:08,698
were then focusing on was the thinking aspects
359
00:25:08,698 --> 00:25:12,598
and the metacognitive strategies which and what
360
00:25:12,598 --> 00:25:15,738
i noticed in japan as well was like it was the same thing so when i went into
361
00:25:15,738 --> 00:25:21,118
the classroom in japan he did a lesson around metacognitive strategies gave
362
00:25:21,118 --> 00:25:27,558
them a question to do and they could all access the task it was a year five
363
00:25:27,558 --> 00:25:32,078
class and there was no question of them being able to do the math.
364
00:25:32,318 --> 00:25:35,158
They had the prior knowledge of the math. They had the knowledge to do the math.
365
00:25:35,238 --> 00:25:38,778
So, he wasn't, the teacher wasn't having to go around and work with students
366
00:25:38,778 --> 00:25:42,678
on how to access the task because they had that. So, this was Mr.
367
00:25:42,938 --> 00:25:48,738
Umahara? Yes. And that's interesting we raise this because I was reading this
368
00:25:48,738 --> 00:25:53,258
and he set them off on a task, which was one, add two, add three, add four.
369
00:25:53,718 --> 00:25:55,898
And I thought- Up to nine. Up to nine. Yep.
370
00:25:56,458 --> 00:26:01,978
But he sent them off to have a crack and I thought, oh, this is open-ended.
371
00:26:02,733 --> 00:26:08,193
But this guy is a highly successful and decorated maths teacher. So what's he doing?
372
00:26:09,333 --> 00:26:11,813
Because this sort of teaching I don't think works as well in Australia.
373
00:26:12,053 --> 00:26:15,213
No. And I know it's not to do with how close anyone is to the equator.
374
00:26:15,553 --> 00:26:20,573
So what's Mr. Umahara got with his kids that ours or some kids over here might not have?
375
00:26:20,713 --> 00:26:25,033
Yeah, so they were all in, they have those individual single desks that you
376
00:26:25,033 --> 00:26:28,153
see from, you know, photos from the 60s in schools, like those.
377
00:26:28,393 --> 00:26:33,173
And they were in little groups of three, maybe four. but it was do the task
378
00:26:33,173 --> 00:26:36,773
yourself, then discuss in your groups.
379
00:26:37,293 --> 00:26:42,253
So, they were doing that pair share stuff. And then he pretty much said the
380
00:26:42,253 --> 00:26:43,373
answer, told them the answer.
381
00:26:43,413 --> 00:26:45,833
The answer is this. The answer is, I think it was 45.
382
00:26:46,493 --> 00:26:51,653
So, this was 1 plus 2 plus 3 plus 4 plus 5 plus 6 plus 7 plus 8 plus 9.
383
00:26:51,753 --> 00:26:54,233
That's correct. And I thought, I wish he added 10. Yeah.
384
00:26:56,313 --> 00:27:00,713
Because that's 55. That's my favorite number. There you go. You've just been
385
00:27:00,713 --> 00:27:02,253
stuck on 10 over there, haven't you, mate?
386
00:27:03,513 --> 00:27:07,273
So, that was the question. So, we added one to nine. Added one to nine.
387
00:27:07,273 --> 00:27:08,893
Cumulative, yeah. Gave them the answer.
388
00:27:09,093 --> 00:27:13,453
Said the answer's 45. I don't care about the answer. What I care about is how
389
00:27:13,453 --> 00:27:15,673
you got there. What was your strategy? What was your thinking?
390
00:27:16,053 --> 00:27:20,333
And that was what the children discussed. And then he got children to come up,
391
00:27:20,373 --> 00:27:23,673
explain their thinking whilst he scribed on the board.
392
00:27:24,033 --> 00:27:28,753
And then he wrote their name up above it as well so that there was that ownership.
393
00:27:28,753 --> 00:27:32,353
Entrepreneurship and then got children to, you know, is there anything they
394
00:27:32,353 --> 00:27:34,493
want to change? Is there anything they want to talk about?
395
00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:39,253
And it was interesting because there was a girl who came up and she said, I've done this.
396
00:27:39,833 --> 00:27:42,113
I know it works. I don't know why.
397
00:27:43,693 --> 00:27:49,393
Yeah. This makes me think about Greg Ashman referenced some experiments that
398
00:27:49,393 --> 00:27:51,933
Sweller did right at the beginning of cognitive load theory.
399
00:27:52,413 --> 00:27:54,933
Do you know the one I'm talking about? Oh, not the experiment.
400
00:27:54,933 --> 00:28:01,633
Okay, so students were asked to, this is in the late 70s, gave students the
401
00:28:01,633 --> 00:28:06,913
answer and a number they had to get to and they could get to by either doing one of two operations,
402
00:28:07,293 --> 00:28:11,173
multiplying by a certain number or taking a certain number. It might have been
403
00:28:11,173 --> 00:28:12,773
multiply by three, take 25. Okay.
404
00:28:13,437 --> 00:28:17,357
So, most people got to it. They got to the target number, but what you had to
405
00:28:17,357 --> 00:28:19,417
do was do those two processes alternatively.
406
00:28:19,617 --> 00:28:22,657
Got to the end of it, his question was, did people know how they solved it?
407
00:28:22,717 --> 00:28:26,177
No one realized that they had done that, done one after the other,
408
00:28:26,297 --> 00:28:29,637
that use those two procedures, multiple by three, take 25.
409
00:28:30,217 --> 00:28:32,757
And that was the beginning of cognitive load theory because he said,
410
00:28:32,797 --> 00:28:37,657
they were so loaded up by trying to discover that none of them could tell him how they did it.
411
00:28:38,197 --> 00:28:41,897
And this is kind of where it grew from. And that's exactly what you made me
412
00:28:41,897 --> 00:28:44,517
think about. Oh, there you go. Yeah, that's what he did. Right.
413
00:28:44,837 --> 00:28:47,097
Yeah. And so, were they so loaded up here?
414
00:28:47,817 --> 00:28:54,737
Well, again, because they could access the maths, that wasn't the focus of the lesson.
415
00:28:54,897 --> 00:28:58,897
The lesson was the discussion around the strategies that they used.
416
00:28:59,277 --> 00:29:03,597
And, you know, it was just really clear that it was an environment where they
417
00:29:03,597 --> 00:29:07,777
were all safe to make mistakes and, you know, do all of that stuff.
418
00:29:07,817 --> 00:29:11,737
And the relationships that he had with his students was exceptional.
419
00:29:11,737 --> 00:29:14,757
Exceptional but it was just interesting because they
420
00:29:14,757 --> 00:29:17,957
just just the discussion of the strategies and
421
00:29:17,957 --> 00:29:21,097
you know and i always say to people like kids are going to think of things that
422
00:29:21,097 --> 00:29:25,397
i don't think of they come up with things that are just amazing and you think
423
00:29:25,397 --> 00:29:29,017
you know i've changed some of my teaching based on responses i've gotten from
424
00:29:29,017 --> 00:29:32,117
kids because i've thought well that's genius yeah you know now i'm going to
425
00:29:32,117 --> 00:29:37,477
do that for you know so but he also said that because the curriculum is so rigid,
426
00:29:37,657 --> 00:29:41,957
he only gets to do those lessons a few times a semester, so not as often as
427
00:29:41,957 --> 00:29:46,657
he would like, but he has won an award for his maths teaching because it is
428
00:29:46,657 --> 00:29:51,137
very different to a traditional Japanese classroom. Okay.
429
00:29:51,257 --> 00:29:57,557
So, this guy is a great maths teacher who says he would rather do that more often, but.
430
00:29:59,070 --> 00:30:04,890
I'm going to be controversial here. We are in an environment that basically goes teach first.
431
00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:07,890
Yeah. Right? He didn't teach first in that lesson.
432
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:12,670
So, my question is, what did he get away with and why did he get away with it?
433
00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:16,810
So, yeah. So, this reminds me of, so I went to a conference in Singapore and
434
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:21,670
I went to see a professor who's actually from Queensland, University of Queensland
435
00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:23,130
or Sunshine Coast or somewhere up there.
436
00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:30,310
And she said, imagine going to learn to play soccer and you go out every day
437
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:37,310
and you learn to dribble, you learn to shoot your goals, but you never actually play a match.
438
00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:40,410
That's essentially what we're doing to our kids in maths.
439
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:45,310
And that was really powerful for me because I was like, you know,
440
00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:49,750
Ben Jensen talks about moving away from skill-based curriculum to a knowledge-based
441
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:53,870
curriculum. You know, we need to build the skills, but then we also need to
442
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:55,630
make sure that they're applying the skills.
443
00:30:55,870 --> 00:31:02,150
So, there are two aspects there. And so, for me, what Professor Umahara was
444
00:31:02,150 --> 00:31:05,910
doing was getting them to apply the skills that they'd learnt.
445
00:31:06,190 --> 00:31:09,430
That's how I look at it. So, it's about that mathematical thinking.
446
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:14,950
Yes. He wasn't doing that to teach them what addition was. No, exactly.
447
00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:20,850
They already had all that down pat. So, the actual math kind of algorithm part
448
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:23,330
was actually very simple for them.
449
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:26,330
Exactly. That was not… That's not the focus of the lesson.
450
00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:30,290
Nothing to do with it. It wasn't like kids in there… It wasn't like the kids
451
00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:34,010
who struggled, they struggled because they didn't know how to add one and two. Yeah.
452
00:31:34,773 --> 00:31:38,173
Actually, it was more about how do you think strategically?
453
00:31:38,873 --> 00:31:44,633
Yes. How do you solve problems? It was more of a kind of a problem-solving strategy lesson.
454
00:31:44,913 --> 00:31:49,093
Yes. And I always, you know, when I've done those particular types of lessons,
455
00:31:49,213 --> 00:31:54,013
it's important for your more capable students because they often,
456
00:31:54,073 --> 00:31:56,553
because if you find mathematics easy,
457
00:31:56,813 --> 00:32:00,453
they'll go, well, there's straight to one way to do it, you know,
458
00:32:00,453 --> 00:32:02,873
and so they don't often see that there's other strategies.
459
00:32:02,873 --> 00:32:08,693
So, it's important for those students to see that there are multiple ways that you can do something.
460
00:32:08,853 --> 00:32:14,233
But then it's also good for your lower students because they may be thinking
461
00:32:14,233 --> 00:32:17,973
of something in a far more complex way than they actually need to.
462
00:32:18,093 --> 00:32:21,113
And they could look at something and go, oh, well, that makes sense to me.
463
00:32:21,273 --> 00:32:25,573
Yeah. I can do that. So, it works at both ends as well.
464
00:32:25,773 --> 00:32:30,753
So, it's a, yeah, it's, again, it comes to that. that we teach the skills,
465
00:32:30,853 --> 00:32:33,333
but we also need to do the application stuff as well.
466
00:32:33,433 --> 00:32:36,153
That flexibility of thinking and that problem solving.
467
00:32:36,453 --> 00:32:41,593
And as adults, I think it's easy to assume that kids know how to solve problems.
468
00:32:41,813 --> 00:32:46,913
My experience is they don't necessarily have very good problem solving strategies.
469
00:32:47,173 --> 00:32:50,893
You know, they kind of guess or they add stuff up on their fingers,
470
00:32:50,973 --> 00:32:52,273
but they're not really thinking about it.
471
00:32:52,293 --> 00:32:55,913
They're just scratching for stuff they already know.
472
00:32:56,093 --> 00:33:00,413
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I kind of, I mean, I really like that approach because
473
00:33:00,413 --> 00:33:08,213
I think if you talk about the point of maths, you know, beyond us learning these basics, it is...
474
00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:11,830
Finding those new discoveries. You know, if I become a mathematician,
475
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:16,710
my job is to solve problems that no one's been able to solve before.
476
00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:20,850
And this is the kind of thinking you need, isn't it? This is the skill you need to do that.
477
00:33:21,090 --> 00:33:26,010
But as you say, that's not the focus of the lesson because our students are novices.
478
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:30,850
They're not experts. So, if we come back, you know, maybe one day they will
479
00:33:30,850 --> 00:33:32,510
be mathematicians and that will be amazing.
480
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:38,050
Yeah. But we don't expect them to think like expert mathematicians.
481
00:33:38,050 --> 00:33:40,850
Yeah. at school and this comes back to that cognitive
482
00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:43,650
load theory that Greg Ashman's talking about you
483
00:33:43,650 --> 00:33:46,630
know and that's where that inquiry stuff comes from
484
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:50,990
as you know that the focus of the lesson was the thinking because they had the
485
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:55,730
strategies to do the addition whereas if we we're not using it to teach addition
486
00:33:55,730 --> 00:34:00,410
because that would be you know an inquiry very confusing it'd be very confusing
487
00:34:00,410 --> 00:34:03,410
for students and as you say particularly for kids with learning difficulties
488
00:34:03,410 --> 00:34:05,550
and you're Setting them up for failure too.
489
00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:07,830
Exactly. And humiliation in front of the class.
490
00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:14,150
Yes. Yes. But we actually don't need them to, you know, do the hard thinking
491
00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:18,850
of mathematicians, but we need to give them the skills that if they one day
492
00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:20,830
get there, that's great.
493
00:34:21,010 --> 00:34:24,410
Yeah. So, I'm just, so we've talked about curriculum. Curriculum,
494
00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:25,510
yes. Which led us into resources.
495
00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:31,970
Yes. Now that we've started to talk about this idea of problem solving and getting
496
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:37,590
kids to to think like mathematicians, I'm looking at explicit instruction because
497
00:34:37,590 --> 00:34:40,730
here lies a clear tension for me.
498
00:34:41,950 --> 00:34:47,370
My guess is that the Australian curriculum is very focused on trying to get
499
00:34:47,370 --> 00:34:52,390
these flexible – kids to think flexibly about how they approach mathematical problems. Mm-hmm.
500
00:34:53,273 --> 00:34:59,553
However, what I've heard you talk about, Liana, is that to approach mathematical
501
00:34:59,553 --> 00:35:05,393
problems in a strategic way, you need to have a lot of knowledge up in long-term memory to draw from.
502
00:35:05,713 --> 00:35:11,193
Absolutely. So, this whole idea of thinking like an expert or doing maths like
503
00:35:11,193 --> 00:35:14,713
an expert doesn't just come with maths. I talk about how does an expert write, you know.
504
00:35:16,413 --> 00:35:21,213
It's got a big gaping hole in it from what I can see and you started touching
505
00:35:21,213 --> 00:35:24,013
on it. You said novices do not think like experts.
506
00:35:24,553 --> 00:35:27,853
So, what's the difference between how a novice thinks and an expert thinks?
507
00:35:28,133 --> 00:35:31,433
Because you're pretty good with this stuff. Can you break it down for us?
508
00:35:32,273 --> 00:35:37,413
Good question. I think I would direct people to the Greg Ashman podcast that
509
00:35:37,413 --> 00:35:38,413
we were talking about, really.
510
00:35:38,493 --> 00:35:42,833
Yeah, put that in the show notes. Because I think that he really just explained it best.
511
00:35:42,973 --> 00:35:48,833
But he talked about, you know, we had this idea that for students in science,
512
00:35:48,913 --> 00:35:51,513
for example, they need to think like scientists. Well, actually,
513
00:35:51,613 --> 00:35:54,353
they don't need to think like scientists because scientists are experts and
514
00:35:54,353 --> 00:35:57,353
students in schools are novices.
515
00:35:57,613 --> 00:35:59,933
And what we need to do is we need to build the skills.
516
00:36:00,233 --> 00:36:02,913
So, you know, we need three things. We need the conceptual understanding.
517
00:36:03,113 --> 00:36:04,913
We need the procedural fluency.
518
00:36:04,953 --> 00:36:09,293
And then we need math recall, fact recall to automaticity.
519
00:36:09,593 --> 00:36:15,253
So, you know, if you have those things, then you will be able to access your
520
00:36:15,253 --> 00:36:16,513
maths and be successful.
521
00:36:17,453 --> 00:36:20,813
That's our goal. Well, we've been kind of working through your conclusions and
522
00:36:20,813 --> 00:36:26,173
recommendations and we've spoken about curriculum and the fact that, you know,
523
00:36:26,193 --> 00:36:29,813
the places you visited that are really successful have the lowest curriculum
524
00:36:29,813 --> 00:36:33,013
variance and the most explicit curriculum.
525
00:36:33,213 --> 00:36:36,093
And I remember when we were back there and I was saying...
526
00:36:37,042 --> 00:36:40,762
You know, was there wriggle room? I think it's interesting that the ones who
527
00:36:40,762 --> 00:36:43,962
had the least wriggle room, I think you mentioned Singapore,
528
00:36:44,302 --> 00:36:46,562
are actually the ones at the top of the charts.
529
00:36:46,762 --> 00:36:50,942
Yes. You know, probably too much of a jump to say it's all because of curriculum,
530
00:36:51,082 --> 00:36:53,862
that they're there, but I think it's interesting that, you know,
531
00:36:53,882 --> 00:36:58,522
maybe that's a little bit counterintuitive for us in our culture to be thinking,
532
00:36:58,622 --> 00:37:01,662
oh, actually lower variance gets better results.
533
00:37:01,662 --> 00:37:05,342
I think, like, as a teacher in the classroom, you know, you open the curriculum
534
00:37:05,342 --> 00:37:06,842
and I think, just tell me what you want.
535
00:37:07,042 --> 00:37:11,962
Like, honestly, just tell me what you want. I'm like, why am I spending my nights
536
00:37:11,962 --> 00:37:15,542
and my weekends trying to work out what you want? Yeah. I don't know.
537
00:37:15,762 --> 00:37:20,002
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It's discovery curriculum. It really is.
538
00:37:20,682 --> 00:37:24,182
It's frustrating. It's discovery learning curriculum, yeah.
539
00:37:24,402 --> 00:37:29,362
Yeah. And we've talked about having high quality resources, which are kind of
540
00:37:29,362 --> 00:37:31,402
rolled into that curriculum discussion, weren't they?
541
00:37:31,442 --> 00:37:35,702
And that's one of your recommendations is that really we want teachers to have
542
00:37:35,702 --> 00:37:38,622
everything they need available to them.
543
00:37:38,702 --> 00:37:41,942
So, they can worry about the delivery and the how, not the what.
544
00:37:42,162 --> 00:37:45,562
Yeah. And put some creativity and their own touch onto the delivery.
545
00:37:45,602 --> 00:37:49,102
And that's the thing I think like, yes, they may have had textbooks.
546
00:37:49,242 --> 00:37:51,702
Yes, they, you know, had those resources.
547
00:37:51,942 --> 00:37:54,462
But you can't, you are still the teacher.
548
00:37:54,922 --> 00:38:00,982
How you deliver that, you know, how you deliver that and how you bring that in, that's still you.
549
00:38:00,982 --> 00:38:06,322
So it's just providing high-quality resources in the hands of teachers,
550
00:38:06,362 --> 00:38:10,922
hopefully as well to give them back their weekends and their nights and,
551
00:38:10,942 --> 00:38:13,162
you know, how about some time?
552
00:38:13,402 --> 00:38:17,522
That's right. We have thousands of people out there reinventing the wheel every night.
553
00:38:17,702 --> 00:38:21,802
You know, all planning lessons from scratch that have been planned a thousand
554
00:38:21,802 --> 00:38:23,882
times before. Why are we doing that? Why?
555
00:38:24,442 --> 00:38:28,502
That's my question. I'm a far better teacher when I'm well-slept and I know
556
00:38:28,502 --> 00:38:30,162
exactly what I'm teaching. Exactly.
557
00:38:30,982 --> 00:38:32,842
And so I think we've,
558
00:38:33,576 --> 00:38:37,076
I think we get that, don't we? The curriculum and the resources,
559
00:38:37,276 --> 00:38:42,616
that kind of base level information for teachers, and I think that would make
560
00:38:42,616 --> 00:38:44,116
things easier for parents as well.
561
00:38:44,256 --> 00:38:47,016
If there was some sort of structure they could follow and they knew where their
562
00:38:47,016 --> 00:38:48,876
kid was going and what they were doing.
563
00:38:49,796 --> 00:38:53,716
And then we started talking about explicit instruction.
564
00:38:54,016 --> 00:39:00,136
I don't think we've really spent much time on that yet. So, I'm kind of looking
565
00:39:00,136 --> 00:39:03,776
and thinking that's next on the list of your conclusions and recommendations.
566
00:39:04,156 --> 00:39:06,996
So, can you say a little bit about that and what you discovered?
567
00:39:07,476 --> 00:39:10,836
And I think that, you know, you can't talk about explicit instruction without
568
00:39:10,836 --> 00:39:12,096
talking about cognitive load theory.
569
00:39:12,356 --> 00:39:17,936
And, you know, that is, you know, explicit instruction is based on cognitive load theory.
570
00:39:18,016 --> 00:39:22,036
So, it's the idea that we present new information in small scaffolded steps
571
00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:25,076
to really ensure the success for our students.
572
00:39:25,076 --> 00:39:27,936
But because so the resources that I
573
00:39:27,936 --> 00:39:32,656
saw in schools they are stepped out for teachers so it's literally a lot of
574
00:39:32,656 --> 00:39:36,816
them were scripted but a lot of them were you know here is your introductory
575
00:39:36,816 --> 00:39:41,696
you're activating prior knowledge activity here is the bulk of your lesson which
576
00:39:41,696 --> 00:39:47,236
is based on the I do we do you do gradual release of responsibility but it's also got in there so So,
577
00:39:47,256 --> 00:39:49,796
the most effective teachers that I saw,
578
00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:53,556
it's about great questioning as well.
579
00:39:53,676 --> 00:39:59,436
And asking great questions in a maths lesson is often very difficult.
580
00:39:59,656 --> 00:40:03,796
It's not an easy thing to do. And some people are just good at picking their
581
00:40:03,796 --> 00:40:05,216
times and they know that.
582
00:40:05,296 --> 00:40:08,936
But for these teachers, it was written in there for them. You know,
583
00:40:08,956 --> 00:40:10,376
at this point, ask this question.
584
00:40:10,536 --> 00:40:14,116
So, that checking for understanding, which is part of explicit instruction,
585
00:40:14,436 --> 00:40:16,816
that's built in for them. Yep.
586
00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:22,956
So, again, it's taking away that load for the teacher so they can worry about the delivery.
587
00:40:23,336 --> 00:40:28,416
And then you've obviously got your, you know, finishing up sort of activity
588
00:40:28,416 --> 00:40:34,016
before the students do some practice in their own books, whether it be textbooks
589
00:40:34,016 --> 00:40:37,656
or their workbooks, that they could practice the skill that they've been taught.
590
00:40:38,036 --> 00:40:42,876
Yeah. So, yeah. So, there was a lot, I think all of the schools that I saw had
591
00:40:42,876 --> 00:40:49,336
some explicit instruction in one form or another. And sounds very structured. Very structured.
592
00:40:49,596 --> 00:40:54,056
And, you know, from the intervention perspective and working with kids living
593
00:40:54,056 --> 00:40:57,776
with disability, structure is very important.
594
00:40:57,996 --> 00:41:04,336
Exactly. Maybe more important because it gives that kind of reliability, that sense of security.
595
00:41:04,536 --> 00:41:07,036
And, you know, you were talking before about kids living with trauma.
596
00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:13,376
Structure is comfort. You know, structure means that I'm not so anxious.
597
00:41:13,456 --> 00:41:17,736
I know what's coming next. Even if I don't like this bit, I know it's only going
598
00:41:17,736 --> 00:41:21,116
to go for a few minutes and then it's going to be a bit that I like.
599
00:41:21,116 --> 00:41:26,976
So, that kind of predictability and structure, you know, from intervention is incredibly important.
600
00:41:27,216 --> 00:41:30,836
And it sounds like in the classroom as well. Absolutely. They were doing that.
601
00:41:31,821 --> 00:41:35,781
And it sounds like perhaps we don't have that kind of structure here unless,
602
00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:39,541
but it's up to the teacher, isn't it? The teacher provides that structure or not.
603
00:41:39,761 --> 00:41:43,981
Yeah. And I think that we're on a bit of a, whether it's explicit instruction,
604
00:41:44,221 --> 00:41:46,801
I know we use explicit direct instruction here at Salisbury,
605
00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:51,361
we're on a bit of a revolution, I think. I think the tides are turning back
606
00:41:51,361 --> 00:41:52,861
towards that explicit instruction.
607
00:41:52,921 --> 00:41:56,421
And I think we've done so much work in the literacy space around,
608
00:41:56,541 --> 00:41:59,601
this is how children with dyslexia learn best.
609
00:41:59,601 --> 00:42:02,701
Best it's exactly the same in maths this is
610
00:42:02,701 --> 00:42:05,621
how children with dyscalculia learn best because as
611
00:42:05,621 --> 00:42:10,481
it is currently if you read a fact sheet for dyscalculia there's most of the
612
00:42:10,481 --> 00:42:14,961
children that you work with but it's not that they have a learning difficulty
613
00:42:14,961 --> 00:42:20,261
it's that the instruction hasn't been strong enough in in tier one in in classrooms
614
00:42:20,261 --> 00:42:24,001
currently yeah hopefully we can change Yes.
615
00:42:24,681 --> 00:42:31,841
Okay. So, explicit instruction and, you know, all that involves was a component
616
00:42:31,841 --> 00:42:33,881
in all the successful places. Yes.
617
00:42:34,561 --> 00:42:37,921
And then I see you were talking multisensory. Yes.
618
00:42:37,961 --> 00:42:43,561
So, what is it about multisensory that the places that are doing it well are
619
00:42:43,561 --> 00:42:45,521
doing that we're not, perhaps? apps.
620
00:42:45,661 --> 00:42:49,601
I think coming back to resources, consistency of resources as well.
621
00:42:49,701 --> 00:42:54,401
But when you're talking multisensory, I went in to the University of Helsinki
622
00:42:54,401 --> 00:42:58,921
in Finland and they teach their pre-service teachers how to use manipulatives.
623
00:42:59,061 --> 00:43:02,401
So they were using the place value, the base 10, sorry, base 10 blocks,
624
00:43:02,641 --> 00:43:05,341
but they had base 10, five blocks.
625
00:43:05,501 --> 00:43:09,561
So they were getting the students, because they said they're all familiar with base 10.
626
00:43:09,961 --> 00:43:14,121
They were getting them to try and think in in base five because they wanted
627
00:43:14,121 --> 00:43:16,601
to put them in the role of the student.
628
00:43:16,961 --> 00:43:19,561
Oh, so the student teachers had to think in base five. The student teachers
629
00:43:19,561 --> 00:43:23,581
had to think in base five so that, sorry, yeah, when I say students,
630
00:43:23,621 --> 00:43:27,881
I meant student teachers at university because they're all comfortable with that.
631
00:43:28,541 --> 00:43:32,801
So how do you put them in the mind of a child who struggles and,
632
00:43:32,861 --> 00:43:35,721
you know, take them out of their comfort zone and give them something else?
633
00:43:35,741 --> 00:43:41,261
And so they're very big on the multisensory approach at the university level, which was amazing.
634
00:43:41,721 --> 00:43:48,581
But I think that also in Helsinki, I actually went to a special school with
635
00:43:48,581 --> 00:43:50,781
a majority of students who are non-verbal.
636
00:43:50,941 --> 00:43:55,581
And so, how do non-verbal students show you their understanding? Through multisensory.
637
00:43:56,041 --> 00:44:01,201
So, this is use of manipulatives? Use of manipulatives, use of anything that's
638
00:44:01,201 --> 00:44:03,161
tactile, really, just to show understanding.
639
00:44:03,441 --> 00:44:09,001
So, like at the special school, for example, they were doing addition with egg cartons. So, and...
640
00:44:09,883 --> 00:44:14,263
Kinder Surprise eggs they were putting in there. But it comes back to the CRA methodology.
641
00:44:14,843 --> 00:44:18,503
So, the CRA methodology, which is big in Singapore as well, is that you begin
642
00:44:18,503 --> 00:44:22,183
with the concrete materials, then you go to a representation,
643
00:44:22,703 --> 00:44:24,743
whether it's a visual representation, whether it's a picture,
644
00:44:24,863 --> 00:44:26,683
and then you go to the abstract concept.
645
00:44:27,003 --> 00:44:30,763
So, what often happens in classrooms is we move to the abstract concept far
646
00:44:30,763 --> 00:44:32,203
too quickly. Or immediately.
647
00:44:32,503 --> 00:44:38,223
Yeah, or immediately when there hasn't been that concrete and the concept understanding.
648
00:44:38,223 --> 00:44:44,083
Because the teacher is suffering the curse of expertise where that's all easily
649
00:44:44,083 --> 00:44:45,663
accessible from their long-term memory.
650
00:44:45,743 --> 00:44:49,103
They can do it abstractly and make an assumption that children can as well.
651
00:44:49,443 --> 00:44:53,463
But it could also be a case of they don't have the resources to do that,
652
00:44:53,483 --> 00:44:55,623
you know, because there's not a consistent approach.
653
00:44:56,243 --> 00:45:01,503
You go to any school, maths equipment is a mess, you know, there's just stuff everywhere.
654
00:45:01,503 --> 00:45:05,183
Everywhere so yeah that methodology was really
655
00:45:05,183 --> 00:45:08,443
big in in finland when i went to the university they
656
00:45:08,443 --> 00:45:11,463
do practice that and they went through those steps within that
657
00:45:11,463 --> 00:45:14,203
lesson that i saw we'd better just define what we mean by
658
00:45:14,203 --> 00:45:17,703
multi-sensory that is teaching engaging visual
659
00:45:17,703 --> 00:45:24,043
auditory and kinesthetic they call them channels yes but in layman's terms it's
660
00:45:24,043 --> 00:45:29,663
seeing it hearing it talking about it touching it moving it so those those kids
661
00:45:29,663 --> 00:45:34,403
in that special school the The auditory part of the VAK was not available to them.
662
00:45:34,463 --> 00:45:38,243
So, the only way they could show their learning was by actually manipulating
663
00:45:38,243 --> 00:45:40,263
those math manipulatives.
664
00:45:40,503 --> 00:45:44,563
Yeah, right. Absolutely, yes. Okay. And, you know, and I think that it was really
665
00:45:44,563 --> 00:45:48,423
powerful because, you know, those children had additional needs.
666
00:45:48,563 --> 00:45:52,843
However, the way that they're showing their learning works for all children,
667
00:45:52,963 --> 00:45:56,183
you know, not simply children with additional needs.
668
00:45:56,243 --> 00:46:00,503
So, it's just, again, it's just good structured learning.
669
00:46:01,283 --> 00:46:04,343
And I think I remember you mentioning in your report that.
670
00:46:05,787 --> 00:46:10,587
You think that here we take those manipulatives away too quickly.
671
00:46:10,747 --> 00:46:15,007
Too quickly, yes. In the places you saw, they kept using manipulatives.
672
00:46:15,207 --> 00:46:19,087
Yes. Well, they didn't stop. They didn't stop. They were always there and always available.
673
00:46:19,527 --> 00:46:25,267
So for me, so I went to a Montessori school in Tokyo, which was an international Montessori school.
674
00:46:25,367 --> 00:46:31,347
So it meant that most of their children were children of people who were coming
675
00:46:31,347 --> 00:46:36,207
to Japan to work. so there weren't Japanese children in that classroom.
676
00:46:36,467 --> 00:46:39,547
And then I also went to a Montessori school in Maui.
677
00:46:40,187 --> 00:46:46,387
And, you know, the resources are the same completely, but they are huge on multisensory.
678
00:46:46,387 --> 00:46:49,307
And their maths equipment is just amazing.
679
00:46:49,527 --> 00:46:54,247
And they have books where they have 200 lessons to follow for each of their students.
680
00:46:54,307 --> 00:46:59,587
But even the children who were at the abstract stage were still checking their
681
00:46:59,587 --> 00:47:04,187
work by using the manipulatives. Yeah, because working memory can become overwhelmed
682
00:47:04,187 --> 00:47:07,787
and you need to get it back in front of you sometimes, don't you? Yes, yeah.
683
00:47:08,167 --> 00:47:12,347
Liana, I'm looking at my notes about the Montessori School in Tokyo and I've
684
00:47:12,347 --> 00:47:17,367
got use of manipulatives, not just any, same ones, precisely organized.
685
00:47:17,707 --> 00:47:20,467
And you saw something about no digital devices in rooms there too.
686
00:47:20,547 --> 00:47:23,947
Not any, not any at all, not a board, not anything.
687
00:47:24,207 --> 00:47:28,267
So, it's just a very different approach. So, they have classes where they have
688
00:47:28,267 --> 00:47:30,247
a three-year band within that class.
689
00:47:30,247 --> 00:47:39,347
So the class that I was in was ages six to nine, and it is very self-directed, but,
690
00:47:39,427 --> 00:47:43,807
you know, they had expectations of what they needed to work on whilst the teacher
691
00:47:43,807 --> 00:47:47,867
works with a small group of children on whatever lesson they're up to.
692
00:47:48,087 --> 00:47:53,447
And then, so they were grouped by age, but also by the lesson that they needed.
693
00:47:53,507 --> 00:47:57,127
So there was a group that the teacher worked with on maths. and then whilst
694
00:47:57,127 --> 00:48:01,407
those children were working independently, he walked around with things like flashcards.
695
00:48:01,787 --> 00:48:06,947
They'd done work on shapes, checking for understanding with the children on
696
00:48:06,947 --> 00:48:10,387
their shapes and whether they could name the shapes or checking with another
697
00:48:10,387 --> 00:48:12,547
group with flashcards of times tables.
698
00:48:12,767 --> 00:48:15,847
So, yeah, doing that, checking in whilst walking around.
699
00:48:16,607 --> 00:48:22,167
So, it was a very different environment but between that school and the school
700
00:48:22,167 --> 00:48:27,507
in Montessori, all of the resources were the same. They were organised the same way and, yeah, so...
701
00:48:28,518 --> 00:48:32,738
Their maths resources, they're just amazing. So, those Montessori schools have
702
00:48:32,738 --> 00:48:35,738
been very deliberate about which resources, when to use them,
703
00:48:35,838 --> 00:48:39,518
which lesson plans to use them with? Yes. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah.
704
00:48:40,078 --> 00:48:46,078
But again, because they have the book of lessons, they're not having to make
705
00:48:46,078 --> 00:48:50,378
it up or work out what comes next because it's progressively written out for them.
706
00:48:50,558 --> 00:48:54,238
So, the scope and the sequence is taken care of. Yes, absolutely.
707
00:48:54,518 --> 00:48:59,258
Okay. So, those manipulatives I think are even more important for kids living
708
00:48:59,258 --> 00:49:03,138
with learning difficulties because as Bill said before, and I think this relates
709
00:49:03,138 --> 00:49:06,378
to the working memory, they free up your working memory.
710
00:49:06,878 --> 00:49:11,038
And the fact that you can see what you're doing means you don't have to be thinking
711
00:49:11,038 --> 00:49:13,958
about it. You can lay it out and that bit's done.
712
00:49:14,078 --> 00:49:18,038
So, it frees up a bit more of my brain power to solve the problem or do the
713
00:49:18,038 --> 00:49:23,038
next bit. And I think, yes, we take manipulatives away from kids,
714
00:49:23,178 --> 00:49:27,218
but my experience is they replace them with their fingers.
715
00:49:27,418 --> 00:49:36,018
And so, kids that I see are in that dreaded cycle of being stuck with doing stuff on their fingers.
716
00:49:36,338 --> 00:49:40,778
And, you know, I explain to them that's fine. You know, it works as a strategy.
717
00:49:41,038 --> 00:49:47,058
But the problem is it's really slow and error prone and they actually work harder
718
00:49:47,058 --> 00:49:50,858
using using the counting on your fingers strategy than if they,
719
00:49:50,958 --> 00:49:55,638
you know, got a few facts under their belt and, you know, freed up their working memory.
720
00:49:55,798 --> 00:50:01,138
And so I think that's a bit of a sign here that we do take away those manipulatives
721
00:50:01,138 --> 00:50:07,158
too soon because the kids kind of solve the problem by replacing them with their fingers.
722
00:50:07,458 --> 00:50:12,798
Absolutely. And I think that we have sort of moved away from that fact recall
723
00:50:12,798 --> 00:50:15,938
as well because, you know, there was that understanding or, no,
724
00:50:15,938 --> 00:50:18,038
No, they need the conceptual understanding, which they do.
725
00:50:18,498 --> 00:50:21,498
But there's a lot of power in just being able to recall facts.
726
00:50:21,658 --> 00:50:24,458
So, when you get up to year four or five and you're doing fractions,
727
00:50:24,618 --> 00:50:28,118
you're doing area and perimeter, if I can just recall the facts,
728
00:50:28,378 --> 00:50:30,058
it's going to make my life much easier.
729
00:50:30,558 --> 00:50:32,718
And there's also addition factors.
730
00:50:34,127 --> 00:50:37,187
You know, again, we've got older kids who are using their fingers,
731
00:50:37,247 --> 00:50:41,287
which is fine as a strategy when you're learning, but we want those facts to
732
00:50:41,287 --> 00:50:45,967
automaticity and, you know, or with multiplication, their times tables,
733
00:50:46,147 --> 00:50:49,027
they're reverting back to skip counting using their fingers.
734
00:50:49,147 --> 00:50:53,187
So we do want that focus on that fluency.
735
00:50:53,287 --> 00:50:59,227
And I think that having those under your belt, it makes things so much easier.
736
00:50:59,227 --> 00:51:02,987
And, you know, and that's what we're seeing like in the upper years.
737
00:51:03,047 --> 00:51:04,227
Our kids don't have that.
738
00:51:04,687 --> 00:51:09,567
So, that's a real focus for us. So, you did see that fact fluency having more
739
00:51:09,567 --> 00:51:12,487
of a focus in the schools you visited than we have here?
740
00:51:12,667 --> 00:51:16,667
Yeah, well, I think particularly in the younger years, there was that fluency
741
00:51:16,667 --> 00:51:19,967
because, you know, when I got it up into the older years, again,
742
00:51:20,027 --> 00:51:23,687
there wasn't that question that the kids could do the maths. They could do the maths.
743
00:51:23,927 --> 00:51:28,587
Yep. So, you know, that was a focus in the younger years, you know,
744
00:51:28,587 --> 00:51:30,067
Get that right, get that in.
745
00:51:30,207 --> 00:51:34,127
And the curriculum supports that as well. The curriculum was like multiplication
746
00:51:34,127 --> 00:51:37,087
to nine times nine by year two in Japan.
747
00:51:38,247 --> 00:51:43,427
Our curriculum says two times tables in year two. So why are our children doing just two times tables?
748
00:51:43,587 --> 00:51:48,247
And in Japan, they're doing up to nine times nine. Because they want those facts
749
00:51:48,247 --> 00:51:51,687
in as quick as possible because it's going to make everything easier.
750
00:51:51,687 --> 00:51:57,087
And, of course, people living with dyscalculia and dyslexia even,
751
00:51:57,947 --> 00:52:01,347
times tables are the killer. Yes, absolutely.
752
00:52:01,727 --> 00:52:05,067
They are the, in my experience, the biggest cause of stress,
753
00:52:05,227 --> 00:52:08,327
you know, aside from fractions perhaps. Yes. But I think they're related.
754
00:52:08,687 --> 00:52:12,107
Yes. And so, this is difficult, isn't it?
755
00:52:12,187 --> 00:52:15,147
And, you know, even if you look at social media discussions,
756
00:52:15,487 --> 00:52:19,947
they are often around how do I get my kid to learn these facts?
757
00:52:20,007 --> 00:52:21,967
Yes. these timetables facts.
758
00:52:22,207 --> 00:52:27,587
And so that's a tricky one, I think, because you really do need to be fluent
759
00:52:27,587 --> 00:52:34,007
in those facts to be able to move away from using your fingers and so on and to be accurate. Mm-hmm.
760
00:52:35,135 --> 00:52:38,915
But learning those facts is really tricky. Yeah, it is. Absolutely.
761
00:52:39,675 --> 00:52:43,935
Did you see when you were over there any kind of intervention approach?
762
00:52:44,495 --> 00:52:48,615
You know, what was their approach? I think you mentioned they had testing,
763
00:52:48,775 --> 00:52:51,675
like early testing and screening for kids.
764
00:52:51,895 --> 00:52:55,755
Yeah, yeah. Who, you know, to prevent that falling through the cracks.
765
00:52:56,115 --> 00:53:01,015
So, I know in Estonia particularly, they did like a NAPLAN style test.
766
00:53:01,135 --> 00:53:04,535
However, so they're in e-country, so they do everything online.
767
00:53:04,535 --> 00:53:07,455
Line so the children sit this test at the beginning of the year
768
00:53:07,455 --> 00:53:10,215
i can't remember off the top of my head what year levels do it but they do
769
00:53:10,215 --> 00:53:13,135
it at the beginning of the year and the results come to teachers almost immediately
770
00:53:13,135 --> 00:53:16,635
so they're using that data to
771
00:53:16,635 --> 00:53:19,415
then plan for the next steps i think you know
772
00:53:19,415 --> 00:53:22,615
for us that nap plan between when we do nap plan and when we get the results
773
00:53:22,615 --> 00:53:27,955
is often quite a big distance between them so yeah so being able to have that
774
00:53:27,955 --> 00:53:32,275
data and then i mean singapore seemed seemed very assessment-based and there's
775
00:53:32,275 --> 00:53:37,115
a very big end of year six exam that they sit that's very important.
776
00:53:38,355 --> 00:53:42,715
So, yeah, I think that, again, consistency of assessment.
777
00:53:42,895 --> 00:53:45,935
So, you know, assessments were in the textbooks that they had as well.
778
00:53:46,035 --> 00:53:50,375
So, the teachers aren't, again, having to create assessments or buy things off
779
00:53:50,375 --> 00:53:53,555
of teachers pay teachers or, you know, because it's all there for them.
780
00:53:53,655 --> 00:53:57,815
Yeah. So, there's just more consistency, I guess, in the data that they're collecting
781
00:53:57,815 --> 00:54:02,055
as well between a site, one school itself, and then between.
782
00:54:02,961 --> 00:54:05,881
Schools you know and did you
783
00:54:05,881 --> 00:54:08,821
see any intervention strategies or anything
784
00:54:08,821 --> 00:54:11,761
over there there weren't so singapore was interesting because
785
00:54:11,761 --> 00:54:15,261
in singapore they have excellent one of the or
786
00:54:15,261 --> 00:54:18,601
the next the next point on the conclusions is early intervention so
787
00:54:18,601 --> 00:54:22,221
in singapore in particular they have a lot of policies and procedures in place
788
00:54:22,221 --> 00:54:27,081
from a very young age for students that they are identified with learning difficulties
789
00:54:27,081 --> 00:54:32,261
quickly and then they are they have a list of recommended providers and and
790
00:54:32,261 --> 00:54:37,421
agencies that parents can take their children to to access intervention.
791
00:54:37,841 --> 00:54:41,341
So, Orton Gillingham is one of the people on the list and that's who I went to visit.
792
00:54:41,501 --> 00:54:45,781
So, and in speaking with the director there, she said that currently they didn't
793
00:54:45,781 --> 00:54:47,321
have any students doing maths intervention.
794
00:54:47,821 --> 00:54:52,281
Orton Gillingham do offer multisensory maths training for anybody that's interested.
795
00:54:52,661 --> 00:54:56,241
And, but they have the procedures like right back from preschool,
796
00:54:56,461 --> 00:55:00,341
you know, their teachers are looking for a particular thing.
797
00:55:00,341 --> 00:55:04,301
So, this is part of my conclusion was that we need early intervention and we
798
00:55:04,301 --> 00:55:08,241
need to train our teachers in preschools, kindies, and, you know,
799
00:55:08,261 --> 00:55:11,301
our reception, our junior primary teachers in what to look for,
800
00:55:11,341 --> 00:55:14,441
you know, for students with learning difficulties.
801
00:55:14,921 --> 00:55:19,321
This is a stark contrast to the fact that in Australia, we are still dragging
802
00:55:19,321 --> 00:55:22,761
some states kicking and screaming to a phonic screening check, right?
803
00:55:23,061 --> 00:55:27,141
Because what precedes early intervention is good screening. Yeah.
804
00:55:27,181 --> 00:55:30,341
And these guys just do it as a matter of course. Yeah. Yeah.
805
00:55:31,081 --> 00:55:36,401
So, you know, so that was a really big thing for me. And then following on from that as well,
806
00:55:36,561 --> 00:55:41,941
one of the discussions I had with a teacher in Estonia and I said to them,
807
00:55:41,981 --> 00:55:46,681
so if you have a child that you suspect has learning difficulties, how long does it take?
808
00:55:47,721 --> 00:55:51,341
For you to get them assessed. And they thought about it long and hard and they
809
00:55:51,341 --> 00:55:54,861
said, oh, three, maybe four weeks at the absolute most.
810
00:55:55,461 --> 00:55:59,601
Our current waiting time is 18 months. It is an absolute disgrace.
811
00:55:59,841 --> 00:56:04,201
So, you know, the difference in, you know, you would know best,
812
00:56:04,321 --> 00:56:08,761
Michael, a child with learning difficulties, if I can get an assessment in four
813
00:56:08,761 --> 00:56:13,781
weeks as opposed to the amount of learning that they're going to lose in 18 months.
814
00:56:14,761 --> 00:56:17,801
It's just, you know, we're talking world-class education.
815
00:56:18,541 --> 00:56:22,381
That's world-class. Put the resources in where they're required.
816
00:56:22,841 --> 00:56:27,961
Yes. You know, I'm so angry about that because that shreds education that way in time.
817
00:56:28,041 --> 00:56:33,621
In that 18 months, that kid is forming all sorts of ideas about themselves as a learner. Yes.
818
00:56:33,981 --> 00:56:35,661
You know, they talk about school
819
00:56:35,661 --> 00:56:39,941
to prison pipeline. It is not overly dramatic to bring this in here.
820
00:56:40,021 --> 00:56:43,061
No. When a kid decides they're not a learner and they can't,
821
00:56:43,101 --> 00:56:47,521
their life outcomes are seriously, seriously affected.
822
00:56:47,861 --> 00:56:51,161
And that impression of themselves as a learner is formed very quickly.
823
00:56:51,301 --> 00:56:54,521
Yeah. It doesn't take much. And if you're, especially if you're talking about
824
00:56:54,521 --> 00:56:58,281
something like maths, you know, yourself as a maths learner, it's fine.
825
00:56:58,361 --> 00:57:02,841
You know, kids go, or even adults, I'm not a maths person or I'm not good with numbers.
826
00:57:03,141 --> 00:57:08,041
You know, that's somehow allowed and okay. okay, but it's not okay to go,
827
00:57:08,161 --> 00:57:10,701
no, I just don't read. Yeah.
828
00:57:11,641 --> 00:57:15,021
I'm not good with letters and sounds. Yeah, I'm not good. These things on a
829
00:57:15,021 --> 00:57:17,221
page, no, it just doesn't make sense to me, no.
830
00:57:17,521 --> 00:57:21,641
You know, that's not acceptable. So, why is it acceptable for people just to
831
00:57:21,641 --> 00:57:23,081
go, no, I'm not a maths person?
832
00:57:23,301 --> 00:57:26,741
So, 18 months is a long time to struggle.
833
00:57:26,981 --> 00:57:32,041
It is. With no intervention. And then, unfortunately, I think the story is even
834
00:57:32,041 --> 00:57:33,921
worse than that because let's say you.
835
00:57:34,866 --> 00:57:39,266
Get that assessment 18 months later, well, I dare say it might take you another
836
00:57:39,266 --> 00:57:45,006
18 months to find someone to tutor you or to do that intervention with you.
837
00:57:45,126 --> 00:57:48,826
Yeah. And then often it's a struggle with the school to say,
838
00:57:48,906 --> 00:57:54,206
well, you know, can the kid have time off to do the intervention and usually they can't.
839
00:57:54,206 --> 00:57:58,966
It is a real mess, isn't it? And it does mess with kids. Yeah.
840
00:57:58,986 --> 00:58:00,666
And why does the intervention have to be outside of school?
841
00:58:01,226 --> 00:58:06,766
Well, it shouldn't. It shouldn't be in a country like ours. But currently it just is.
842
00:58:06,966 --> 00:58:10,466
And there are very few schools that offer maths intervention.
843
00:58:10,846 --> 00:58:15,206
You'll find literacy intervention, and I know we talk about this at StudyTour,
844
00:58:15,246 --> 00:58:21,126
often in the hands of SSOs or ESOs, people who aren't trained, unfortunately.
845
00:58:22,066 --> 00:58:26,186
So that can also be damaging. We need to put those, you know,
846
00:58:26,206 --> 00:58:30,806
our most vulnerable children in our most highly skilled expert teachers.
847
00:58:30,806 --> 00:58:35,006
Teachers, but also it's a tier one issue across the board.
848
00:58:35,186 --> 00:58:38,986
That's what we're finding in, you know, literacy, maths is exactly the same.
849
00:58:39,126 --> 00:58:41,466
It's classroom practice that needs to change.
850
00:58:41,646 --> 00:58:46,026
And I think when I was in Singapore, it just seemed a much tighter connection
851
00:58:46,026 --> 00:58:49,786
between the research and what was happening in classrooms.
852
00:58:50,166 --> 00:58:53,646
Whereas I think that we're quite separate from the research.
853
00:58:53,786 --> 00:58:55,886
And I mean, teachers don't have time to read the research for one,
854
00:58:55,926 --> 00:59:00,026
you know, and also there's only so much you can do as a teacher in a school
855
00:59:00,026 --> 00:59:01,886
if your school's not on that journey,
856
00:59:02,006 --> 00:59:06,326
you know, so then you become that one person in your classroom trying to do
857
00:59:06,326 --> 00:59:08,946
all of these things, but you're not getting the support,
858
00:59:09,126 --> 00:59:13,786
you know, for, it could be for lots of reasons, you know, so there needs to
859
00:59:13,786 --> 00:59:18,266
be more consistency within schools and then across schools as well. Mm-hmm.
860
00:59:19,112 --> 00:59:23,332
Yeah, it's a really tricky one, that whole intervention. And,
861
00:59:23,412 --> 00:59:25,672
you know, you mentioned that self-concept.
862
00:59:25,912 --> 00:59:30,132
It forms quite quickly. You know, kids start thinking, I'm dumb, I can't do maths.
863
00:59:30,752 --> 00:59:34,032
It gets to the level with some kids, I think, where it is traumatic.
864
00:59:34,232 --> 00:59:36,452
Yes. You know, I have some kids
865
00:59:36,452 --> 00:59:42,252
that I work with where I have to do multiplication kind of by subterfuge.
866
00:59:42,352 --> 00:59:45,712
Like, I can't tell them that it's multiplication because if I do,
867
00:59:45,772 --> 00:59:48,832
they just shut down and they won't do it. but they're so horrified,
868
00:59:48,832 --> 00:59:49,992
you know, terrified of it.
869
00:59:50,232 --> 00:59:53,372
And that doesn't happen instantly.
870
00:59:53,532 --> 00:59:57,712
Like there's a story behind that. You know, that kid has probably struggled
871
00:59:57,712 --> 01:00:01,192
for a long time to get to the point of giving up on that.
872
01:00:01,572 --> 01:00:06,252
And then I think the other issue with that is you spend a lot of time building
873
01:00:06,252 --> 01:00:12,312
their confidence up to the point where they can do it, but that confidence is very fragile. Yes.
874
01:00:12,412 --> 01:00:17,512
And sometimes it only takes even an offhand comment from a teacher or me or
875
01:00:17,512 --> 01:00:21,632
anyone to have them plummet down again and start thinking they're dumb again.
876
01:00:21,752 --> 01:00:24,412
It's a very simple instruction.
877
01:00:25,272 --> 01:00:29,072
Yeah. And it's so preventable. Yes, it is.
878
01:00:29,232 --> 01:00:33,212
You know, one of the other things like coming back to resources and the curriculum,
879
01:00:33,492 --> 01:00:35,512
the curriculum's written in strands.
880
01:00:35,732 --> 01:00:37,612
So you've got your number in algebra, your measurement, geometry,
881
01:00:37,772 --> 01:00:38,892
and your statistics and probability.
882
01:00:39,272 --> 01:00:42,072
There's no scope and sequence. There's nothing to tell you teach this,
883
01:00:42,092 --> 01:00:46,112
then this, then this, then this, which is why I created them because there wasn't anything.
884
01:00:46,112 --> 01:00:50,592
So, you know, yeah, if it's not sequenced in the right way and the children
885
01:00:50,592 --> 01:00:53,752
aren't being explicitly taught the connections between the concepts,
886
01:00:54,012 --> 01:00:58,812
then you're left thinking that everything's separate when all mass is connected,
887
01:00:59,032 --> 01:01:02,552
you know, and that, yeah, that creates massive issues.
888
01:01:02,892 --> 01:01:04,832
Yeah, it's really tricky. Yeah.
889
01:01:05,717 --> 01:01:09,977
So, there is scope there for improvement and there are models out there that work.
890
01:01:10,117 --> 01:01:14,537
So, you know, that early intervention, we have the phonics screening check.
891
01:01:14,697 --> 01:01:19,597
Why don't we have a numeracy screening check and get kids that support before
892
01:01:19,597 --> 01:01:23,697
the damage is done or to at least minimize that harm?
893
01:01:24,677 --> 01:01:28,597
Yeah. What else have we got on the list? We've got pre-service training.
894
01:01:28,917 --> 01:01:33,037
Yes. We touched on that a little bit. A little bit, yeah. We've got an episode on it.
895
01:01:33,497 --> 01:01:39,377
We have, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think that I can talk to my experience
896
01:01:39,377 --> 01:01:43,117
of when I went to university, it was that constructivist approach and that's
897
01:01:43,117 --> 01:01:44,677
where education was heading.
898
01:01:44,777 --> 01:01:50,117
I think that some things are starting to turn slightly, but we need to be a
899
01:01:50,117 --> 01:01:51,257
bit more severe in that turn.
900
01:01:51,937 --> 01:01:57,257
And I think that, you know, teachers are coming out, finishing uni,
901
01:01:57,517 --> 01:02:01,377
everybody will always tell you that what they learned most was when they're on prac, right?
902
01:02:01,457 --> 01:02:04,577
Yeah. That's number one. As provided you've got a good supervisor.
903
01:02:04,617 --> 01:02:09,757
Exactly. Well, that's the thing. It's completely dependent on your supervising
904
01:02:09,757 --> 01:02:12,097
teacher. It's dependent on the direction of the school.
905
01:02:12,357 --> 01:02:15,317
You know, so there's too many inconsistencies there.
906
01:02:15,477 --> 01:02:21,957
And so we need to make sure that when mathematics is taught at university level, how do you sequence?
907
01:02:22,317 --> 01:02:26,077
How do you break concepts down? What is the CRA methodology?
908
01:02:26,537 --> 01:02:30,817
What does that mean? What are effective resources? sources? How do I plan?
909
01:02:31,397 --> 01:02:35,137
Well, you know, how do I plan a unit? Because the thing is, if they're planning
910
01:02:35,137 --> 01:02:37,117
them, then ideally that shouldn't change.
911
01:02:37,257 --> 01:02:40,017
You know what I mean? Like, because the concept doesn't change.
912
01:02:40,117 --> 01:02:47,077
So, you know, just really giving them, you know, how do I teach using an explicit instruction model?
913
01:02:47,437 --> 01:02:50,197
What is concept development? How do I teach it?
914
01:02:50,990 --> 01:02:55,070
You know, I think that we just need to really make that focus rather than,
915
01:02:55,070 --> 01:02:57,590
you know, like, here's a bunch of shapes.
916
01:02:57,670 --> 01:03:01,290
Tell me what's the same about them all. Do you know what I mean?
917
01:03:01,330 --> 01:03:04,030
Like, we need to build those explicit skills.
918
01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:08,290
Yeah. And so, we need to teach teachers how we build those explicit skills.
919
01:03:08,530 --> 01:03:11,910
If any cashed up listener wants to put some money into a project,
920
01:03:12,030 --> 01:03:13,050
we're up for it. Absolutely.
921
01:03:13,210 --> 01:03:16,750
We'll start our own teacher training program. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
922
01:03:17,370 --> 01:03:19,890
Salisbury could become one of those teacher trainer schools.
923
01:03:19,890 --> 01:03:23,030
Should be. Yeah, yeah. That'd be a great project.
924
01:03:23,370 --> 01:03:26,530
So, honestly, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed.
925
01:03:26,710 --> 01:03:30,830
There's so much there, isn't there? There's so much. And there's such a gap
926
01:03:30,830 --> 01:03:36,470
between what appears to be kind of best practice and the countries and the schools
927
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:38,350
and the systems that are doing really well.
928
01:03:38,510 --> 01:03:43,890
Yeah. And what we're doing, there's such a long way to go, isn't there?
929
01:03:43,970 --> 01:03:47,310
And it can seem very overwhelming and very like, oh my gosh,
930
01:03:47,330 --> 01:03:49,650
where do we start? Exactly. What do we do?
931
01:03:49,890 --> 01:03:55,010
Even this conversation we have found difficult to structure because there is
932
01:03:55,010 --> 01:03:57,410
so much to talk about. There's so much in it, yeah.
933
01:03:57,810 --> 01:04:04,790
And it's so complicated. And so can we simplify it for people who are listening
934
01:04:04,790 --> 01:04:09,490
and say, well, what, you know, I'm not going to, I can't change the curriculum. No.
935
01:04:10,070 --> 01:04:15,810
What can I do? You know, what sort of simple practices can I start doing in
936
01:04:15,810 --> 01:04:18,490
my teaching that are going to start to address some of this?
937
01:04:18,490 --> 01:04:23,250
I think you've mentioned it and, you know, people should go back and listen
938
01:04:23,250 --> 01:04:24,710
to the last episode where we
939
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:29,190
talked a lot about, you know, within your school, lowering the variance.
940
01:04:29,410 --> 01:04:32,830
So, within your school, you know, we're not given a scope and sequence.
941
01:04:33,570 --> 01:04:37,090
So, let's make one for ourselves and let's stick to it.
942
01:04:37,110 --> 01:04:41,170
And at least in the school and for our students year to year,
943
01:04:41,330 --> 01:04:44,850
we can give that kind of consistency we've been talking about today.
944
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:47,730
So, there is that level of control at the school level.
945
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:53,090
If you have a whole site which is on board as well. If everyone's on board,
946
01:04:53,130 --> 01:04:55,790
that's right. Yeah, exactly, which is the other thing that can be really difficult.
947
01:04:56,050 --> 01:05:01,550
Yeah, when you're one person in your four walls, it can be incredibly difficult. So, yeah.
948
01:05:01,810 --> 01:05:06,150
So, what about for that one person? So, one person in those four walls and they
949
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:08,290
think, yep, I'd like to improve.
950
01:05:08,550 --> 01:05:12,290
Yes. What are some of the things people could start doing?
951
01:05:12,370 --> 01:05:15,870
And I'm thinking here about best bang for buck, you know, because they can't
952
01:05:15,870 --> 01:05:18,890
do all these things we've talked about. No, you cannot at all.
953
01:05:19,030 --> 01:05:23,490
Well, you know, from what you saw and your experience, what do you reckon –.
954
01:05:24,424 --> 01:05:26,884
It's the first cab off the rank for your typical teacher. Yeah,
955
01:05:26,884 --> 01:05:29,884
I was going to say, which I think that Bill could probably talk about a lot
956
01:05:29,884 --> 01:05:32,644
as well, but I think that teachers need to understand cognitive load theory.
957
01:05:32,884 --> 01:05:39,304
I think that just building your own knowledge around cognitive load theory,
958
01:05:39,504 --> 01:05:42,824
and if you want a framework like explicit direct instruction,
959
01:05:42,964 --> 01:05:47,704
the framework there changed my teaching because it gave me the structure.
960
01:05:47,924 --> 01:05:50,984
Yeah. And that's what I was craving as a teacher.
961
01:05:51,124 --> 01:05:55,724
I wanted a tight structure. So, they would be my two starting points.
962
01:05:55,824 --> 01:05:57,984
I would say be kind to yourself.
963
01:05:58,764 --> 01:06:02,984
You can't do it all and you want to do the best for your students.
964
01:06:03,024 --> 01:06:08,504
Every teacher does, but building your own knowledge around that is going to help. Can I add to that?
965
01:06:09,044 --> 01:06:12,244
Really simple stuff. Get the students facing you.
966
01:06:12,424 --> 01:06:15,984
When you look at what you're teaching, work out exactly what you have to teach
967
01:06:15,984 --> 01:06:19,784
and what you want your kids to be looking at and thinking about while you do
968
01:06:19,784 --> 01:06:23,204
it. so there's that controlling attention bit which is really important,
969
01:06:24,595 --> 01:06:29,395
The other bit, oh, shivers, it's now escaped me. It was in working memory and it was great.
970
01:06:31,315 --> 01:06:35,835
It was amazing and life-changing. It will come back to me though at some point.
971
01:06:35,935 --> 01:06:41,055
But there are some basics here about teach it well.
972
01:06:41,175 --> 01:06:43,475
Yeah, I've got it back. Build review in.
973
01:06:44,275 --> 01:06:49,775
We are notorious in maths in teaching, say, fractions in term whatever and then
974
01:06:49,775 --> 01:06:54,395
they don't get touched again. Again, look at your sequence and see if you can
975
01:06:54,395 --> 01:06:55,855
keep coming back to things.
976
01:06:55,915 --> 01:06:59,235
Build yourself a lattice. They call it an interleaving model.
977
01:06:59,455 --> 01:07:05,475
And don't be scared to review stuff using slides. People are brushing to the OCA resources.
978
01:07:06,095 --> 01:07:11,135
Now, that's review. It's strong in review, is it? There are review and lessons in there as well.
979
01:07:11,315 --> 01:07:16,015
So, what we did as a starting point for us was every year level,
980
01:07:16,055 --> 01:07:20,415
the teachers looked at their year level curriculum for maths and we picked out our non-negotiables.
981
01:07:20,835 --> 01:07:26,635
What is it that your students must have by the end of that year level?
982
01:07:26,815 --> 01:07:29,615
And it's probably a good starting point, even if you are that one person in
983
01:07:29,615 --> 01:07:31,735
your own classroom. Decide that for yourself.
984
01:07:31,895 --> 01:07:36,035
Decide that for yourself. What are your students not leaving without?
985
01:07:36,395 --> 01:07:40,515
You know, they are going to have that no matter what because that's what is
986
01:07:40,515 --> 01:07:43,355
going to be most beneficial for them moving forward.
987
01:07:44,055 --> 01:07:47,395
That's important. So, that's going, I couldn't put it any better.
988
01:07:47,495 --> 01:07:50,995
What must they have? Yes. Yes. So, like I always say, you know what,
989
01:07:51,055 --> 01:07:57,835
like I'm sure it's lovely that students know names of different triangles or something like that.
990
01:07:57,895 --> 01:08:00,575
But if they don't have their number facts, that's not going to help them.
991
01:08:00,675 --> 01:08:06,835
So, my focus is the number fluency, that fact, that automaticity, fact recall.
992
01:08:07,515 --> 01:08:11,495
But then we're also working on the building the concept and that understanding
993
01:08:11,495 --> 01:08:13,035
of the concept doesn't change.
994
01:08:13,335 --> 01:08:16,655
Yeah. So, I'll take that stuff over. So, tessellations, okay.
995
01:08:16,995 --> 01:08:20,075
Yeah. So, what that means is teachers are making some decisions about what they
996
01:08:20,075 --> 01:08:21,495
leave out, Liana. Yes. Yeah.
997
01:08:22,075 --> 01:08:23,715
And I always say to people, do
998
01:08:23,715 --> 01:08:26,775
you know what? To be honest, there's some things, if you don't have time….
999
01:08:27,602 --> 01:08:30,862
There's some things I can leave out, you know, like, I mean,
1000
01:08:30,882 --> 01:08:34,502
I taught year one and during COVID, you didn't get to everything and you had
1001
01:08:34,502 --> 01:08:36,622
to make those choices about what you're going to leave out.
1002
01:08:37,042 --> 01:08:39,802
Will something happen? Won't something happen? Do you know what?
1003
01:08:39,862 --> 01:08:43,962
That's not my priority. I'm not going to spend, you know, a week looking at scenarios.
1004
01:08:44,302 --> 01:08:49,942
In fact, we're going to go back and do our numbers because that's what's most important to me.
1005
01:08:50,322 --> 01:08:54,762
So, yeah, I think just because the curriculum isn't sequenced for you,
1006
01:08:54,862 --> 01:08:58,522
have a look. look, what is most important and then build that into your review.
1007
01:08:58,702 --> 01:09:02,942
Yeah. I really love the fact you brought up review. And for people who are listening
1008
01:09:02,942 --> 01:09:06,762
and might have missed it, our last episode was on – was that our last episode?
1009
01:09:06,782 --> 01:09:08,982
Yeah, it was on review with David Malkunis.
1010
01:09:09,222 --> 01:09:12,682
And he is interested in maths as well.
1011
01:09:12,782 --> 01:09:18,602
And one of the things he said, you know, his absolute kind of go-to things that
1012
01:09:18,602 --> 01:09:21,142
you have to know were the four operations, you know. Absolutely.
1013
01:09:21,182 --> 01:09:22,982
Addition, subtraction, division, multiplication.
1014
01:09:23,182 --> 01:09:26,482
Procedural fluency. You've got to know them. And so, you know,
1015
01:09:26,502 --> 01:09:31,102
in his review, and we had a similar conversation about you can't cover it all.
1016
01:09:31,662 --> 01:09:37,162
You know, he always made sure kids got that and that that was constantly reviewed.
1017
01:09:37,462 --> 01:09:43,082
Yes. I think that review is so important. I have kids, you know,
1018
01:09:43,102 --> 01:09:48,862
in maths who have a memory of being taught stuff that I'm talking about,
1019
01:09:49,002 --> 01:09:52,242
but they kind of say, oh, yeah, I remember that.
1020
01:09:52,242 --> 01:09:55,762
You know, I say, do you remember what, you know, such and such is?
1021
01:09:55,782 --> 01:09:59,782
The other day I was doing like bed mass, you know, with a kid.
1022
01:09:59,882 --> 01:10:02,442
And I was saying, oh, I think I've heard this before.
1023
01:10:02,782 --> 01:10:07,842
And I was saying, oh, what is it? And they told me a long story and it was completely unrelated.
1024
01:10:08,162 --> 01:10:11,002
And so, they had clearly been taught it.
1025
01:10:11,222 --> 01:10:16,482
But I dare say it had never been reviewed since they'd been taught it.
1026
01:10:16,562 --> 01:10:20,942
And so, they'd forgotten it. Yes. Yes, our 5-6s currently have that in their daily fluency.
1027
01:10:22,042 --> 01:10:26,442
Because it's that flexibility with the operations, you know,
1028
01:10:26,482 --> 01:10:30,422
and so it's really important to the point where kids are asking for more because
1029
01:10:30,422 --> 01:10:32,422
they're enjoying it so much.
1030
01:10:32,582 --> 01:10:34,862
Because it solves such a mystery, doesn't it? Exactly.
1031
01:10:35,082 --> 01:10:37,242
I think kids like it too. They understand it. It's like, oh,
1032
01:10:37,362 --> 01:10:41,022
there is a scratcher. Yeah, and, you know, maths is fun when you're successful.
1033
01:10:41,082 --> 01:10:43,342
When you can do the maths, it's fun.
1034
01:10:43,662 --> 01:10:48,482
Yes. You know? Can we just paint the context as well? Well, Salisbury is a low
1035
01:10:48,482 --> 01:10:50,942
socioeconomic educational area.
1036
01:10:51,162 --> 01:10:55,502
It's what they call Category 2 of disadvantage, which is the second highest
1037
01:10:55,502 --> 01:10:56,622
disadvantage category.
1038
01:10:57,102 --> 01:11:01,522
So we're not in some leafy green, folks, and these are kids asking to be taught
1039
01:11:01,522 --> 01:11:04,582
more bed mass or bod mass. Yeah.
1040
01:11:06,042 --> 01:11:10,322
Just to straighten that one out. Yes. Yeah, and so I think that review,
1041
01:11:10,602 --> 01:11:14,242
you know, because we are talking now about what you can do as a teacher to,
1042
01:11:14,955 --> 01:11:19,375
You know, or a tutor or even a parent. Yeah. And we discussed this with David,
1043
01:11:19,435 --> 01:11:23,655
you know, as a parent, you may not understand the maths or know it,
1044
01:11:23,695 --> 01:11:26,055
but you could take a role in review.
1045
01:11:26,455 --> 01:11:29,315
Yes, absolutely. With your kid, you know. Well, four operations doesn't change,
1046
01:11:29,435 --> 01:11:31,775
right? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Practice the times tables.
1047
01:11:31,955 --> 01:11:35,415
Yeah. Do you know, and the biggest thing for me is what our children,
1048
01:11:35,515 --> 01:11:41,675
like they say that it's actually easier to do multiplication as opposed to addition
1049
01:11:41,675 --> 01:11:44,815
because you can fall back on your skip counting, right? right?
1050
01:11:44,915 --> 01:11:48,375
So, which is not what we want because we want them to know their multiplication
1051
01:11:48,375 --> 01:11:50,875
facts, their timetables to automaticity.
1052
01:11:51,095 --> 01:11:57,515
But what we're finding is that just single-digit addition, children don't have to automaticity.
1053
01:11:57,535 --> 01:12:02,755
You know, when you're going over 10, they don't have those facts to automaticity.
1054
01:12:02,815 --> 01:12:06,915
And then, so if I don't have addition, subtraction looks like some crazy,
1055
01:12:06,975 --> 01:12:09,035
mysterious thing that I don't understand.
1056
01:12:09,475 --> 01:12:11,615
Multiplication, I don't know what you're talking about. Divisions,
1057
01:12:11,655 --> 01:12:14,115
like, because they're not seeing the connections between them,
1058
01:12:14,155 --> 01:12:18,575
but because that time hasn't been spent in cementing those facts,
1059
01:12:18,675 --> 01:12:23,135
and then it just makes everything, it's a snowball effect. Everything's harder.
1060
01:12:23,995 --> 01:12:28,075
So, you know, I'm very big on let's get that right at the foundational levels,
1061
01:12:28,215 --> 01:12:29,895
and that's why we talk about our non-negotiables.
1062
01:12:29,915 --> 01:12:32,575
Like you're saying, yeah, tessellations are fun, and I can do that in art,
1063
01:12:32,615 --> 01:12:35,795
that's great, but in maths, I need to make sure they have their number facts.
1064
01:12:36,015 --> 01:12:39,355
Yes, yes. And they're probably more fun lessons to teach. Yeah,
1065
01:12:39,355 --> 01:12:42,595
they are. I know. Than getting the kids to do their tables again. I know.
1066
01:12:45,215 --> 01:12:50,335
You take your autonomy in your art. You knock yourself out. It's not about us.
1067
01:12:50,335 --> 01:12:51,815
It's what the kids need, mate. That's right.
1068
01:12:53,455 --> 01:12:57,335
That's the standard line, isn't it? It's not about you. Yeah.
1069
01:12:58,055 --> 01:13:00,295
Liana, just out of your knowledge, you're our first ever reporter.
1070
01:13:01,262 --> 01:13:05,722
Guests. Oh my goodness. On Discast. Oh really? Yeah. Do I get balloons and streamers?
1071
01:13:05,862 --> 01:13:08,642
Oh they're just out before, they're just being set up now. So yeah.
1072
01:13:09,842 --> 01:13:13,362
Wow, thank you. Brilliant. Yes, again.
1073
01:13:13,602 --> 01:13:18,002
And so when the report comes out, when you finish that, where will it be?
1074
01:13:18,142 --> 01:13:19,402
How can people access it?
1075
01:13:19,622 --> 01:13:25,682
Yeah, so I might send it your way to put on the show notes, that would be amazing.
1076
01:13:25,682 --> 01:13:29,362
It will be published on the Churchill Fellowship website.
1077
01:13:29,582 --> 01:13:33,042
If anyone's interested in Churchill Fellowship, applications are currently open.
1078
01:13:33,222 --> 01:13:37,042
It doesn't have to be education-based. It can be whatever tickles your fancy.
1079
01:13:37,162 --> 01:13:46,562
As long as you have a project idea that will support or help the community in some way.
1080
01:13:46,762 --> 01:13:50,802
What is the purpose for when you return? That's the biggest thing.
1081
01:13:51,482 --> 01:13:54,862
But, yeah, if anybody's interested. And then I will, I guess,
1082
01:13:54,902 --> 01:13:59,582
push it out on my social media as far and wide as I can take it.
1083
01:13:59,642 --> 01:14:01,942
Ask Bill to push it out on his. I will push it.
1084
01:14:02,802 --> 01:14:07,122
And we feel honoured that people got a sneak peek into your fellowships.
1085
01:14:07,122 --> 01:14:10,802
Depending on when we get this out, Michael, we'll do our best. Yeah. And we've tried.
1086
01:14:11,442 --> 01:14:14,202
It may be published by the time we get this out. Yeah, it could be.
1087
01:14:14,262 --> 01:14:15,022
It could be. That would be great.
1088
01:14:15,182 --> 01:14:22,822
And, look, we've tried really hard today to summarise it. but there's so much in it, isn't there?
1089
01:14:22,922 --> 01:14:27,522
And so I would recommend people take the time to read it, you know,
1090
01:14:27,542 --> 01:14:34,082
because I've read it and I think your report does a better job than perhaps we did today.
1091
01:14:34,142 --> 01:14:38,782
I'm trying to put some structure to it. Because you've got great examples in
1092
01:14:38,782 --> 01:14:43,402
there and I think they're really good, you know, those actual kind of anecdotes
1093
01:14:43,402 --> 01:14:47,022
of this is what you observed and what you saw. Yeah.
1094
01:14:47,662 --> 01:14:50,822
They're great because they paint a really good picture. Sure do.
1095
01:14:50,982 --> 01:14:55,902
And so, yeah, I think it's amazing, amazing piece of work that you've done.
1096
01:14:56,162 --> 01:15:00,182
Thank you. And I'm so grateful that you can share it with everyone.
1097
01:15:00,382 --> 01:15:02,782
Yeah. You know, because I'm sure people will get a lot out of it.
1098
01:15:02,822 --> 01:15:06,302
Yeah. And teachers, when you get it, put it in front of your leaders.
1099
01:15:06,622 --> 01:15:12,162
Seriously, leave it on desks. Pester people. This is too important not to be
1100
01:15:12,162 --> 01:15:17,742
paid attention to. And, you know, I know that literacy is in quite a focus at
1101
01:15:17,742 --> 01:15:21,242
the moment in schools, but we're still teaching maths. Yeah.
1102
01:15:21,779 --> 01:15:27,539
It's not, you know, it really can't be left aside, you know, we'll get to it.
1103
01:15:27,899 --> 01:15:31,219
We're still teaching it, so what's happening in classrooms? Yeah.
1104
01:15:31,339 --> 01:15:35,039
So, yeah, I think that. It's a difficult, the whole thing's a difficult space,
1105
01:15:35,099 --> 01:15:38,999
isn't it? It's difficult to find a maths tutor if you do need intervention.
1106
01:15:39,659 --> 01:15:44,739
There's not many of us out there compared to literacy, but hopefully we'll catch
1107
01:15:44,739 --> 01:15:47,539
up. Yes, we will get there. Because you know what, maths is fun.
1108
01:15:47,739 --> 01:15:52,279
It is fun. It is. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, and I think when it's
1109
01:15:52,279 --> 01:15:57,399
taught in the right way and when children are successful, they do enjoy it a whole lot more.
1110
01:15:57,619 --> 01:16:01,999
I remember I had a 4.5 class a few years ago and at the beginning of the year
1111
01:16:01,999 --> 01:16:05,099
I'd be like, okay, it's time for maths, and they'd be like, and I was like,
1112
01:16:05,219 --> 01:16:07,179
no, no, no, that's not allowed.
1113
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:09,859
That's not the maths we're doing here. That's not happening.
1114
01:16:10,299 --> 01:16:13,859
But by the end of the year you'd be like, okay, you know, they'd be asking me
1115
01:16:13,859 --> 01:16:16,339
for it. When is maths time? Are we doing maths now?
1116
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:19,719
When do we do this? You know, they wanted it because they were successful.
1117
01:16:20,219 --> 01:16:23,439
And that's, you know, that's what all teachers want.
1118
01:16:23,619 --> 01:16:26,799
They want their children to be successful. So that's why, you know,
1119
01:16:26,819 --> 01:16:32,179
teachers are well-intentioned, but the workload is unsustainable.
1120
01:16:32,239 --> 01:16:36,319
And you, you know, teachers are being asked to do far too much.
1121
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:41,739
That's why I say there's a lie of autonomy because we're doing the work that
1122
01:16:41,739 --> 01:16:42,979
we shouldn't have to be doing.
1123
01:16:43,119 --> 01:16:45,999
It's not our job to interpret a curriculum.
1124
01:16:46,539 --> 01:16:49,919
That's the job of the experts. Tell me what you want me to teach.
1125
01:16:50,219 --> 01:16:56,679
And it would also be why, if you're not strong in maths, you'll spend your precious
1126
01:16:56,679 --> 01:17:00,199
amount of time that you have, you'll probably spend it doing the things you
1127
01:17:00,199 --> 01:17:01,299
are stronger in because...
1128
01:17:02,226 --> 01:17:05,486
Who has the time? Exactly. Exactly. In your own cognitive load.
1129
01:17:05,486 --> 01:17:07,226
To learn something new. Yeah. Absolutely.
1130
01:17:07,706 --> 01:17:12,886
And, you know, even like as a, you know, I'm very confident in teaching maths
1131
01:17:12,886 --> 01:17:16,506
and putting things together, there's still a lot of thought that goes into it.
1132
01:17:16,546 --> 01:17:20,866
And the thinking that you have to do to plan the lesson, and this is the problem,
1133
01:17:20,906 --> 01:17:24,106
is the thinking's going into the planning rather than the delivery.
1134
01:17:24,326 --> 01:17:27,426
Yeah. And that's what we're missing. And I think there needs to be more of a
1135
01:17:27,426 --> 01:17:30,506
focus on the how rather than the what.
1136
01:17:30,706 --> 01:17:34,746
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. What a beautiful way to sum it up. Okay.
1137
01:17:35,686 --> 01:17:40,266
Well, thank you, Bill, once again. Thank you, Michael. Wonderful to have your insights.
1138
01:17:40,566 --> 01:17:43,766
Thank you so much, Liana. Thank you for having me. Coming back for a second time.
1139
01:17:43,966 --> 01:17:48,206
We've had such fantastic feedback from the first episode with you and from people,
1140
01:17:48,286 --> 01:17:50,446
you know, using your scope and sequence.
1141
01:17:50,526 --> 01:17:53,606
And some people have been in touch. So, I also encourage people,
1142
01:17:53,706 --> 01:17:56,106
if you have questions, please email and ask me.
1143
01:17:56,326 --> 01:18:00,126
That's very generous of you. My pleasure. All the show notes and your scope
1144
01:18:00,126 --> 01:18:02,346
and sequence are still there on our previous episode.
1145
01:18:03,186 --> 01:18:06,546
Thank you, everyone, for listening. I hope you got something out of it.
1146
01:18:06,686 --> 01:18:10,646
You can connect with us on social media. You can make comments on the website.
1147
01:18:10,926 --> 01:18:17,806
You can subscribe to our newsletter. So if Liana's paper's not published by
1148
01:18:17,806 --> 01:18:20,626
the time the episode goes out, if you're on our mailing list,
1149
01:18:20,846 --> 01:18:22,046
we will let you know when it is.
1150
01:18:23,246 --> 01:18:27,086
And we always love comments and conversations. so if you've got something to
1151
01:18:27,086 --> 01:18:32,606
say or a question to ask don't hesitate to get in touch with us yes thank you thank you thanks.
1152
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:43,695
Music.