Amityville

Matthew: host Matthew Wharton and I have got to give a quick shout out to Tommy. Thank you, Tommy, for doing all the editing behind the scenes, the computer man, I appreciate it. And of course Jacob, thanks for being my partner in crime going out there and putting up my shenanigans in the woods. Also Chris man, thank you for doing the research in the background as well. You're great researcher man. I'd put you up against anybody. So ⁓ without further ado though ⁓ just real quick heads up you guys I am speaking at the Ohio Bigfoot Jamboree in eight ohio on October 3rd I'm gonna be speaking in Kansas City ⁓ with Chum Spirits on November 7th. I'm gonna be at in September. I'm gonna be at the ⁓ speaking at the Arkansas Bigfoot Conference. So I'm pretty excited about that. And of course the Ark Side Crypto Fest coming up in May 22nd of next year. So I'm pretty excited about that. Before I bring in my guests, I want you guys, you know, let's talk a little bit about what's going on. ⁓ tonight today's episode is gonna be a little special. kind of close to home, I'm really kind of particular to it, that kind of thing. the Amityville Horror House is a Dutch colonial home located at 112 Ocean Avenue. the address is now changed to 108 Ocean Avenue in Amityville, New York. It became infamous due to a 1974 mass murder committed by Ronald Defoe Jr. and subsequent claims of demonic possession by later residents, inspiring a famous book and a film franchise. Now, on November thirteenth, nineteen seventy four, twenty-three year old Ronald DeFay Jr. shot and killed six members of his family, his parents and four ⁓ siblings, inside the home. DeFayo was convicted of second degree murder in nineteen seventy five and sentenced to six concurrent sentences of twenty-five years to life. He died in prison in two thousand ⁓ one. In December of nineteen seventy five, George and Kathy Lutz Bought the house for a low price and moved in with three children. They fled just 28 days later, claiming they were driven out by terrifying paranormal occurrences, including swarms of flies, strange slime, cold spots, and menacing voices. Their story formed the basis of Jane Anne's 1977 best-selling book, The Amityville Horror, and the hit 1979 horror film. Now, most users ⁓ on Reddit and the parental investigator agreed that the haunting accounts were largely a hoax and exaggerated financial scam cooked up after the fact. ⁓ suscrilies who have lived in the house report no supernatural events and the home has changed hands several times through normal real estate sales. The iconic quarter circle windows were also remodeled by later owners to deter sightseers. Now what I find fascinating about the whole Amityville house is the fact of the matter that what a crazy phenomenon. I mean there's everybody tied in with the Warren family. The Warren's coming through and doing investigations, the infamous ⁓ photo of the boy, which we may pull up. But my guest today, you guys, ⁓ he's been on the show before, Scott, and Scott is coming on and we're going to talk about the too clear wonderful research that he's been doing, and we're gonna do a little dive into the Amityville horror. So sit back, buckle up and ⁓ yeah, let's have fun with this one. ⁓ stand by, I'm getting ready to bring him in. Hey brother man, thank you Scott for coming back. I'll tell you that right now. I'm excited to have you. ⁓ you know, we've you know, we we talk a lot. I mean you're in the woods a lot, I'm in the woods a lot, so it's kinda nice to have it it's nice to be able to, you know, talk with people who are you know, boots on the ground. Yeah. 'Cause everybody's everybody's behind the computer or in a book, but you don't really talk to too many boots on the ground researchers. So it's nice, you know what mean? It is. And I love I mean, like on your previous episode you did, We're talking about you know the urban Bigfoot. Yeah. And what's really cool, there's a park. It's called Emerald Park here and they got these big cliffs and everything. ⁓ you get a chance to come down, I'll sh I'll take you there. And you can go up above and then they have like a BMX straight down the b the bottom and so me and my little boy went down there, we're checking things out, and he looked at me and he goes, So, do you think Bigfoot is here? And I went I said, Well, I said if we taught the Scott Scott would probably have some pretty cool theories on this one, but my personal theory is no, because the river's right here, on the other side of the river is Little Rock. You can see the buildings and everything, the house is right there. And then on the other side of the cliffs is nothing but neighborhoods. So it's a small section to where they would have to travel they they really don't have nowhere to travel to unless they're gonna try and brave the river. So, you know, I look at that as like probably I said, but maybe a hundred Years ago they were probably roaming through here and this might have been a good spot for them. That's true. I mean they could maybe a transient thing. One gets kicked out of a clan or something, goes rogue and might find himself near a stretch of neighborhood, but as far as like betting down and setting up shop there, probably not. But you mean you might go out there at three AM and there might be one walking right next to the river. You know, it's sometimes they're just cutting through. Yeah, I can see that. I I just know that further up going up both ways in the direction Up and down the river is nothing but houses. All the way I mean it yeah, it extends for miles of houses they got backed up or Burns Park. ⁓ there's ⁓ I mean i you know, I try and look at, you know, logically of where they could travel travel too. So that's why I told my little boy we so we had a conversation about ya about a month ago. Okay. I like it. I like it. So but no man, so and the cool thing is so not only do we do boots on the ground and you know, you and I talk Bigfoot all the time. ⁓ together. A lot of people don't realize that. You know, and we we probably taste back and forth, maybe about once, you know, a week, sometimes and then wait once every couple of weeks, and then we'll share ⁓ evidence. ⁓ gosh, did I share you did I show you the three tail track? I finally got one. Yes. I saw that it's out that you shared that on the news feed. I like, dude, that's pretty great. ⁓ I mean it was I'm not gonna lie, I was so excited about it. And since I have you on here real quick, I I want to pull it up before we jump into ⁓ the ⁓ our f mutual topic. You know, I said we'd only spend a a couple of seconds talking about everything and you know, this is what we do. Let's see. Exactly. Yeah, but but again too though, that is what, you know, I want people to realize, you know, w when we do these shows, a lot of times, you know, we have an idea of the direction we want to go into and then all of a sudden, you know, it goes completely different. Let me get that opened up real quick so I can get ready to share that. Three toe track. I mean this was absolutely beautiful. ⁓ let me go back. Okay, so I'll just keep it that way. ⁓ nope. X out. Okay. Alright, technology. You gotta love it. Gosh, yeah, here we go. Let's share this real quick. Alright, so let me open up so this is the track. That three toe track right there. Jesus. Isn't that cool? Dude, that almost looking at it from a distance, like how it's kind of zoomed out, that's almost got like a reptilian type look to it. See, that's been my theory with some of the three toe tracks too though. It's like you tied in with reptilian. So this is my foot right here. And you can see the rock where my heel is at. Uh-huh. I think that it stood on I mean the most of the foot was on the rock. And on the rock it ended up yo, so on this big rock right here and the toes 'Cause the way it pushed in, yeah, it looks like it stepped on that rock and just kind of did that push in thing. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So That makes sense. I thought I was like blown away by that. I was like, that is so cool. But it's almost those are like claws. You can see where it almost curves to the left, like these three fingers would almost. Yeah, that's that's bare sket. Hang on. So there's another angle of it. And it didn't turn out quite well in this picture. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's what you know, I am not a crime scene photographer. But if we can try and zoom it in a little bit, you guys can see just where the toes were at, right through here. ⁓ yeah. You can see the trackway pretty good. Even if you rotated the picture, you could even do that too. That's why they have like smart people. That is awesome. That's just a beautiful picture where we ⁓ for sure. So but yeah, I mean that was that was a lot of fun. Again, that was a couple of days ago. And that's one of the things I like about what you you and I do is that you know we were just in the woods. So not only are we in the woods, and you can't have Bigfoot, you can't have Dogman, you can't have any of these other cryptos without bringing in the paranormal. And it's all part of the same tree. Yep. One of my favorite all time hauntings is the Amdeville horror. I am a fanatic about it. I read the book and I have to be honest with you that's probably the only book I've ever read in my life that absolutely gave me nightmares. I I was in high school and I slept with the light on. ⁓ yeah, for a couple of days afterward. ⁓ my parents were like making fun of me because of it, to be honest with you. Fascinated with the movie. Every time the movie came on, had to watch it. ⁓ dug deep into it and when the internet was available we were able to start digging in. I was constantly looking this up and blown away and then these documentaries came out. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know? How crazy is that? Dude, there's tons of there's I mean, I try to watch every Amityville documentary that comes out. Tubi's actually got a decent amount of them, to be honest. Most of them are ⁓ Ed Lorraine Warren oriented, and I don't know how you feel about them. I just watched that whole Jason Haas thing about how he thinks a lot of what they did might have been more fraudulent and more for show. But I d I don't know. I think that's maybe somebody that's trying to be relevant in a community that they don't belong in anymore because I think those are pioneers. But I can also see from a standpoint, okay, for back then that's what we had. I mean Ed and Lorraine were it. I mean, all the books that were written, the first thing to really talk about werewolves. Like if you ever watch the demon werewolf thing, or read the book rather, they actually exercise some sort of like dogman or werewolf demon or something out of somebody. It's a in one of the the Warren books. Well, it's funny you mention that because Saint Christopher was a dog man. And when he got baptiz when he got baptized, he turned into a man. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Well there's another rabbit hole. Fantastic. You're welcome. Makes sense though. You know, so you brought that up about the Warrens, and you know, Jason Hawes. And you know, and I'll be honest with you, you know, I did look up two years ago, you know, Jason and Grant, ⁓ when they started TAPS and they were going you know, ⁓ the research the initial research they did and the investigations they did was great. ⁓ I did like the fact where if it was something they could not explain, then okay. And if there 'cause there were some sh episodes where they found nothing. And they they come out and say, Hey, yeah, I mean it didn't happen for us, but it doesn't mean that it's not happening to the you know to the homeowner or what location. And so I had a lot of respect for them. And now all of a sudden this whole entire ⁓ with the purchase of the the Matt Reif thing going on, with the you know, Jason Haas going on, all these like paranormal investigator battles and it's childish. It is. And you know, and I think for Jason to come out and say, Well, the Warrens, you know, I don't think that, you know, a lot of what they did was accurate. And you know, like you said earlier That was it. The Warrens didn't care. That was the thing. The Warrens did not give a single F word at all. Yeah. They would go on T V shows and they would take ridicule, whatever, and they say, Yeah, this is absolutely hundred percent haunted. This is what we did, this is what we came about and they would always bring people in to try and document and, you know, capture the evidence of what they were doing. Yeah. So And what I find fascinating too is in the whole I ⁓ yeah, I believe there's sh there the series of the Warrens of the Conjuring. ⁓ there's like Insidious Conjuring, I can't I can't keep track of them all anymore. There's so many. But the very first one though starts off in the Amityville house. Yeah. You know? And I found that absolutely fascinating that they would tie in the Amityville house to Long I mean, just like the whole movie series. mean, it's kind of cool how they did that though. They just said, you know what, we'll just go ahead and stitch that in right here. We'll weave that in a little bit and they made it work. But I s I go I like to deep dive with it as far as like, for example, the whole one of the things I wanted to blab about, how Ronnie shot everyone in the house and nobody woke up. Now the initial thought is I mean, I'm pretty sure it was storming that night. Did he time the rifle shots with a thunderclash crashing? But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because You'd have to be able to predict precisely the pattern of the thunders. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So what if let's again, this is all a speculative framework. What if it was some sort of demonic influence, like Ronnie will give Ronnie the benefit of the doubt for a second? And somehow that demonic force did like an acoustic veil where the reality of like what we can hear was manipulated to where he basically gave the guy a silencer. To kill his family with, more or less, but in a in an interdimensional or spiritual way. You know, like harmonic resonance, different vibrational frequencies, that sort of thing. What if you have one higher frequency drips into ours a little bit, and that's where we're getting all the static? Maybe that's how he was able to commit the murders without being without anybody waking up. I mean, I go right that's deep, deep, you know what I'm saying? I mean, yeah, the ⁓ what you know, here's a funny thing too though, is if you look at the history so what it let's talk about demonic. I think that modern day ⁓ paranormal researchers like to throw the demonic word around because it's clickbait. It gets the views. Everybody wants a demon house, you know. Exactly. So i and I I I fully believe that demonic entities are extremely rare. ⁓ to where other shows everywhere they go is it's demonic. You know, they get I mean everything is demonic now. Demonic, demonic, demonic. And I disagree. So if we viewing the events that took place at the Amity, you know, the veil house with ⁓ we'll talk about the Fayo first. Mm ⁓ And we'll let's dig into what we know about the guy. ⁓ there's been numerous documentaries, like you and I both watched them. ⁓ there was really no clear signs of any kind of weird paranormal or anything outwardly that was shown to ⁓ friends of the family. He what he did make people uncomfortable. That did come out. ⁓ ⁓ family friends of the DeFeos did say, you know, Ronnie always, you know, kind of put off a little odd vibe, but he was really close to his mom. And he had a weird relationship. He didn't have a good relationship with father. So, you know, and time just go back into the demonic thing. You know, if DeFeo was you know, experimenting, Ouija bo whatever. I mean, 'cause this is also the beginning of the satanic panic. Yeah, it was. That this spread through our country. ⁓ the see here I want the Exorcist was like the big movie. You know, the Exorcist was coming out, scary movies and stuff like this. Demonic stuff was coming out. ⁓ we had ⁓ I wanna say Rosemary's Baby. We had ⁓ the omen, all these these these type of movies that were coming into the mainstream media and people were soaking up with sponges. And I think that's where some of the satanic panic ⁓ began. So if we look at the influence and Ronnie was trying to maybe was trying to cash in on it, because I'm with you. How can one person kill Six people in bed at night, ⁓ with a single shot to each one of them, where nobody in the home wakes up. And the only reason why they know 315 and they go at the 315 time is because a dog was barking next door and it woke the homeowner up and they saw that was 315. So, you know, going back to the storm theory, if it was timing it in, weren't the dog already been barking through the storm or something? Yeah. I mean I didn't I didn't to be honest with you, I didn't think about the dog right off. I immediately went to, you know what, it's gotta be something deep and connected. 'Cause that's just how my brain works. Or that or maybe since you know animals are really good, you know, or theorize, you know, we theorize that animals can detect, you know, parental activity, maybe The the presence and what was the ac the energy going was so strong that it freaked the dog out and that's where the dog started barking at. That yeah, that's true too, because they already kind of see into the other side anyway. You know, you're not supposed to disturb a cat or a dog when they're just blankly looking at something across the room because allegedly they're warding it off or whatever. The paranormal stuff fascinates the crap out of me too. I mean, it started with Bigfoot and then it went to haunted houses because that was just kind of the way the trend went. And then with Bigfoot though and the new developments in it and learning about stuff, Bigfoot just keeps building. Haunted House is always going to be a haunted house. So when I when I stick to haunted houses, it's going to be something like the Veliska Axe Murder House or what we're talking about right now, the Amadevil Horror House. I mean Yellow Card wrote a song about the Amadeville Horror House. Ocean Avenue, I believe, was the name of it. Yep. So it's like Yeah, so Amityville has been in in the mainstream media from the get go. You know? And it was so what I have a hard time so, you know, we're not gonna really know. ⁓ one of the theories out there is it's to where ⁓ Ronnie had other people help him. Right? True. But the thing is, so that evening Ronnie was playing pool at the local bar. He left came back, his buddy was still there, and when he walked in he looked at his buddy and said, The mob just killed my family. No, the mob just killed my dad. Didn't talk about the family, talk about the mob killed his dad. So we dig into the DeFeel family a little bit. There's an explanatory gap there for sure. Yep. So the the funny part is so you look at the DeFoe family even more. ⁓ Ronnie Senior was worked at a car shop, a car store ⁓ a dealership. Okay. ⁓ he w worked for his father-in-law, who was tied into did have some mob connections there. So they were able to purchase this big beautiful home. ⁓ which was they were happy everybody was happy with it. Everybody was good to go. But if it was a mob hit that was had gone wrong, because I we gotta explore every option here. ⁓ But what's funny too that so and on top of that, so let's say Ronnie did kill some mob enforcer or something like that. Don't you think in prison he had been beat up? Or Ronnie even came out and said, Yeah, there was mob connections, why think I'm untouched here in prison? Nobody messes with me here in prison. Because he was being protected. I mean that's that's ⁓ a really viable possibility. When they look at everything out there So much of it's just crap. But something like that, I mean, that makes sense. 'Cause the mob had their hand in a lot of stuff back then. ⁓ well they still do. Yeah. You know. And I think so we gotta we g we have to view that aspect of it too, the mob connection. And you know, again, everybody out there, you know, ⁓ me and Scott are gonna throw theories up on the wall for you guys to pick and choose later on if you want to research into it, by the way. There's plenty we could mean and Scott could probably do this for eight hours. Do all the research in all honesty. Probably. Yeah, well this could be a full blown, like eight part series if we wanted to do it that way, but instead Halloween special. Exactly. We're doing this to give you guys a you know, another perspective on the Amityville horror. Okay, so now we have the mob connection. Ronnie's untouched all the way through prison. And before Ronnie passed away ⁓ he did come you know, he was he did he brought the mob, he brought up demons he was told to use demons, ⁓ demonic possession he was told to use the mob. He was trying to cash in on everything that he could before. And you know, so you can't take I can't take him for face value what he said because ⁓ his his sister, he did stay in prison to where she did get out of bed. And he told her to go back in bed and just lay down on her stomach. You know what I mean? And pretty much hide, and that's when he shot her. You know what? When I'm thinking about it, it's almost like there was multiple personalities going on at the same time when these decisions were made. Because the same guy that said go basically hide on your stomach is also the same guy that shoots you. It's almost like a split personality thing. One says, you know, kill her, the other basically says don't, go hide. Like when it's almost like a conflicting personality, like two people fighting inside one body. Yep. And I do know there is a few cases in history of multiple demonic possession where the same demon jumped into multiple people. I can see that. I mean, yeah, well, so let's theorize here. So Ronnie Ronnie being kind of the rebellious nine you know, mid seventies kid, we're coming out of the Vietnam Wars ending. ⁓ we're coming out of the hippie movement, rebellion, you know, burning draft cars, burning bras, burning all that stuff. And he's in a good Christian family. So he starts to experiment maybe with, you know, the paranormal and goofing around. And what if he did? What if he decided he was going to try and maybe sell himself or something along the lines and became possessed to do this? I mean, I never put much thought into that. That makes sense. Maybe this is a a seed that was planted long ago. You know, that something that he you know, he started this without really having the intention of things going the way that they did. You know, like take Aleister Crowley for example. Legend has it he summoned a demon in the desert. You know, and the dude wrote like seven or eight of these insanely wild books about magic and wizardry and all that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? Maybe he thought that he could use the powers or whatever to give himself some sort of fame and fortune, which people want to capitalize off of the amateur horror anyway. I mean how many people over the years, even major reporters that have been in every documentary, ⁓ it's a bunch of BS. This never actually happened. You know, so and so said this later on that it was that it was a lie, but nobody's ever been able to confirm or deny it one way or another. Glad you brought that up. All right. So the only people who have come out to confirm or deny it we'll start off with the Before we get into that, let's go into George and Kathy Lutz. Yes, this is where it all really begins in my honest opinion. I agree. Okay, so George marries Kathy. Kathy has three kids. And depending upon well, according to family, friends of the family of the Lutzes, George loved the kids. He absolutely adored the kids. He was about the kids. He was about Kathy. He fell in love. He was kind of a party guy, motorcycle guy, you know, drinking beer, having a good time. Kathy fell in love with that kind of roguish thing. He was an independent contractor, construction guy. So they get married and they purchase a beautiful home in New York. Okay? In Amdeyville, New York. In ⁓ the price of the home I don't have it off the top of my head at the time, but was affordable. I think it was eighty thousand or something like that. I think it might be eighty or I mean almost to the point where like if it was on sale at that price I would be buying it right now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I'd be like scoot over, you know, ghosts and demons, and I mean. We're gonna make this work. Yeah. Levitate me up to fix that spot on the wall. So So George and Kathy meet, they fall in love, they you know, get married, and they're trying to make it work, and they move they so they buy this beautiful home, get a I mean, he's George has all the toys, if you think about it. At the time, for a guy, he has all the toys. He's got a boat, he's got everything, they get the boat, all that fun stuff. So the house, you know, one one two Ocean Avenue is perfect for them. And this is where the stories start kind of conflicting a little bit. They live there for twenty eight days and they bounce out. Twenty eight days is not enough time to fully unpack. Okay. So what what bothers me the most is right. Everybody says they abandoned the house, they did what they had to do for financial reasons. Not after twenty eight days. You haven't even made a first payment yet in twenty-eight days. And you're not going to go in default in the first twenty eight days. The bank the bank's going to give you a lot longer than that. They go in the default before they saw the home. So twenty eight days living in the home, not fully unpacked, you flee the home, you flee leaving everything behind all your personal your clothing, toys, everything of the kids, the the you know, you leave it all behind after twenty-eight days. There's no repossession note, there's n ⁓ of the house. There's n no bad credit, no bad standing, nothing of the sort at all on the house. Twenty-eight days. That is where I have to throw a monkey ranch into the financial part for people and they use that. They say, ⁓ they were just trying to make a buck. You know, he was going broke. He was he's gonna be doing this, he's doing that. Not after twenty eight days. I see where you're going. I mean I see I mean I never really questioned the money aspect. I thought that most of the time when somebody has an issue with one of these famous hauntings or cases, it's just because they're they weren't fortunate enough to be the one that captured that evidence or discovered that that house was haunted and a lot of time it's just jealousy doing the talking, in my honest opinion. So financially it's that wasn't that's not even where my head ever even really went with it. So I didn't even really I can't contest A theory that I don't buy into anyway. Yeah, well that was the thing. So I had so I don't I don't buy the financial yeah, and I'm yeah, what I'm doing is I'm I'm throwing all the theories out there of ⁓ people stating that ⁓ that's why they did it. In all honesty. And I I just have a hard time with that. I really do. I don't think that at all that they fake this whole entire encounter due to of the financial. But now, so I want to jump back to the fail for one quick thing before I jump back into lessons. Okay, so let's take the demonic thing of the fail out. Okay. Let's let's get rid of that theory. ⁓ let's just flush out away for a moment. Okay, f as we jump into lessons. So let's go in and say that Ronnie just went bizar Bunkers, he took some bad drugs, and got lucky and was able to kill all six people in the family. Okay? Right? So he goes to the bar and has a drink afterward. Just saying. The lessons move in, and according to one of the sons, or both of ⁓ them. ⁓ George was into the occult. Majorly. So George fascinated with the occult. ⁓ some Tibetan stuff, a whole bunch of everything, stuff like that, tantric and all that other good stuff. ⁓ I want to say the Kama Sutra was coming out during the seventies as well. Transcendental meditation books, that sort of thing, levitation. I mean, and also the man had trauma. He I believe he was a marine veteran as well. I believe he served in Vietnam or something along those lines or army one or the other. Or was that was that to Feyah? Was that his dad was the vet? I think his dad was the vet. Let me let me let me you know what? Since we're talking, I'm gonna I'm gonna Google George real quick. 'Cause if there is military background, that just opens another lane for us to explore. Let's see here. Let's see if we can get a good you know, real quick pull up of him. ⁓ doo doo doo doo okay, George Lutch in the military. Let's do that. He might have been a veteran. Miss Luck. I don't know why. That doesn't ⁓ okay, th now they're pulling ⁓ there's a bunch of Geor there well there's a port there's a couple of George Lutzes that ⁓ recently passed away. A second. Yeah. So there's yeah, there's an I mean George Lutz Amity Phil. That's what I'm gonna have to do. Hang on, George Lutz. See here. I could spell today. I don't know why I'm not being able to spell Amityville, hang on. It's like we s said earlier, there's you know that Vell. We had a hard time trying to get in and and do the show. Yes. It was a pain at first. So the yep, you're right. He was in the Marine Corps, ⁓ and spent time stationed in Japan during the Vietnam War era. Okay. Yep, it says here that his ⁓ military background ⁓ shaped ⁓ his demeanor at home, which the stepchildren later recall is imposing during their brief twenty eighth stay in the infamous Long Island home. Okay, so that that definitely opens the door a little bit then too. Well, he only served though in ⁓ Jap ⁓ Japan. It wasn't ⁓ Vienna. But I think that rigid hard ass mentality to a degree can also be a doorway opener sometimes. I mean if you're walking into a house, let's say let's say there's already a spiritual fracture at one hundred twelve Ocean Avenue, and now you're bringing all of this interest of transcendental meditation and eastern Tibetan theology and all that kind of stuff, which don't get me wrong, all that stuff's fascinating. But now you're bringing it into a place that's already got a a lot of bloodshed and a lot of legend and lore behind it that we can't even really confirm to this day. Now you've just layered that. We've now in fact have layered phenomena going on in this home, you know, if that's the case. And that could explain why various things didn't work and why it seems like certain people were affected more than others. I mean, George was it yeah, sat in front of the stove because he just couldn't get warm. Like every day for hours at a time, like not even really knowing how we got down to the couch. I mean, something was going on there where I think that George was open spiritually, and probably the demons or whatever entities in that house completely ate that up. And things just got worse from that point on. I mean, if you watch my amity vol about Danny, that's my personal favorite perspective about the house. Because that dude stays out of the public eye on purpose. I mean You can see how visually distraught he is, even having to do that documentary. I mean, the stuff he said was like, Okay, well, all the naysayers can piss off at this point because I I'm telling you this happened. I was there, you know, and he was the littlest, and what happens when you're a kid and this stuff happens? ⁓ we either don't believe you or you're seeing things. Yep. You know, and so again, ⁓ glad you brought okay, so you bring that up. Okay, so Now have George, strict military fan you know, lifestyle. That tells me again, fall back on the financial side, George was not gonna let his finances go to shit. Sorry language. Would not let his finances go to crap. He was just saying on top of all that stuff. So George disciplined, maintaining his own contract business, moves in into the occult. Alright, so now we have a house. Six murders took place a year before. And you're gonna continue practicing these occult ritualistic, you know, activities. The movie, the first one that came out, what really for no reason at all, they put in a sex scene. Yeah. So let's let's let's look at that for a minute. Okay. ⁓ and the reason why I'm bringing it up, so because I brought up the Kama Sutra. ⁓ Eastern Mediter you know, eat you know, Eastern meditation, all that wonderful fun stuff. What if in the movie the reason why they put that in there was the fact they're meant to show that they were practicing some maybe sex magic as well. That makes sense. And I know Alistair Crowley was a big practitioner of the sex magic. And I wanna say, don't quote me, but I think Danny said something about it in the documentary about him having some sort of sex magic book or comma suture. I mean, look at what was it? The Da Vinci Code, when they literally treated sex like a doorway to spirituality, you know, to complete like the whole circle and how Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and there was a whole bloodline. I'm not saying I believe it, but it's it was fascinating to watch that and I think that's borrowing that similar design off of that. Well I think if you look at it, I mean it's been used ⁓ yeah that has been used as a ritual for a For eons, ⁓ is it's a it's a ritual when you get married. Mm-hmm. The consummation of the marriage. It's it's a it's a magical thing. And to where the energies release ⁓ my god, we got on the yeah, we well, we went down a wood weird I brought us down a weird rabbit. ⁓ so but again that always stood out to me though, to where that was brought up. In the book it's not really mentioned in the biography of them having into you know, intercourse, you know, being together at all. But in the movie, you know, they show it. And two things either A they're trying to show the love between George and Kathy at the time or the passion. Or, you know, they're showing some of that magic. Was that a little breadcrumb left for us? Yeah, or for other a cult preachers. Uhhuh. You know, who knows? ⁓ you know, just saying. So you know, you you brought Danny up. as well and talk about the books and everything that George had. And they were off limit books, but he but he Danny also being a curious kid, the kids looked at ⁓ obviously, 'cause I'm not gonna lie, I got a book I a bookshelf right here with books on it. You know, my kids will grab ⁓ every once in a while. But again to you know, Danny and them didn't have, you know, cell phones to play with, they didn't have Xboxes to play with. You know, there was no real cable TV, so books. were the key thing to everything. So obviously they're going to be curious and investigate the books. The family get moves in, immediately they have the issues. George can't, like you said, George is cold, constantly cold, and he wakes up all the time, as he claimed, at 315. Every morning. So George starts spending more time at the house and away from work. Family friends that would come over the house, I can't remember the the one lady's name, to where she was absolutely horrified of the house and she got sick in the house and she had that slight little psychic ability, ties into the fact that in their circle of friends, they were all into this occult stuff. ⁓ And they talk about that, they're bringing it up in the movie and they bring it up in the book as well. Okay? To where, you know, the psychic friend comes over and she freaks out and gets scared to death and she can't handle it. And that's where they go find the hidden room in the basement, which never happened by the the red room never happened? Red room never happened. There was a red room down there. There was a a room that was painted red by the DeFeos, but the girls played in that room in the basement. That was like a toy room for them, or where they kept a whole bunch of ⁓ dolls or whatnot in that room. Which explains why Harry the dog would repeatedly stare at that doorway of the red room because his kids are in there. You know? Like that so the way they make it sound though, ⁓ some sort of secret, unblue printed red room was under the house where horrific things took place. But if do you remember the remake with Ryan Reynolds, which I'm honestly I was a fan of the remake. Not as much as I like the original. Original nothing's gonna beat the original, or even some of the cheesy twelve other ones that happened after that. Amityville Dalhouse, anyone? No, I haven't seen that. ⁓ it's actually really good, believe it or not. I quit I I I did Amityville, then Amityville too. And Enerville 2 was a story their version of the DePayos, which wasn't the DePayos, but I mean it was pretty disturbing. ⁓ maybe. Two, I think yeah, two I think really explored the the psychologically demeaning abuse that they talked about. Yeah, the brother was abusive. Mm-hmm. And then and then there was an insensous relationship between the brother and sister. I mean, there was yeah. There was a lot going on during that time. And that movie honestly was pretty terrifying. The second one really was. Yeah, i it i it the whole thing disturbed me. I think that's the reason why, because the disturbing goes against that all that tab ⁓ everything in it was tab. But the Ryan Reynolds version was very good as well. So they have the you know, we know the story of the priest. Now no priest died or got blinded by you know, trying to bless the home. That never happened. ⁓ a priest did come in to bless the home and did have the room full of flies. That actually did occur. Danny backed that up, the other son backed it up. ⁓ The windows slamming down and pinning his hands. Hands blowing up like cartoon characters and stuff he was talking about. Yep. That's that's terrifying to me. And then my favorite part in the book that really got to me was when George would wake up every morning at 3 15. Harry would be out sometimes he'd be outside barking, and the door to the boathouse would always be open. And you'd have to go unlock it. And so because I'm about to bring in our next character. And he turned he locked it up one morning at three fifteen, turns around, and up at the little girl's window was a six foot pig with red glowing eyes. Jody. George freaks out, runs upstairs, runs to the house. I mean goes straight to her room. In the book, and ⁓ give Goose once again remembering it from the book, told you the book horrified me. He opens the door And there's no pig, she's asleep in bed, and the rocking chair is rocking by itself. And the window was open, he came in and closed the window that and he thought that the rocking chair was rocking 'cause of the a breeze coming through. That was his mindset. But that morning, as he was sitting there at the kitchen table, he said in in the book, he goes, What would I have done if I'd got in that room and there was a giant pig in there? And his first and you know, he thought, Well, I guess he'd have masses of bacon for I mean, for quite a while. You don't put something in the book like that unless it's something that you actually experienced and went through with that ⁓ train of thought. No, I think at that point we have to explore a little bit why was it a pig demon? Like why did it show up in the form of a pig? What belief system does that does that stem from? I mean, a lot of that might have something to do with it because if you remember in the remake with Ryan Reynolds, it bought into the idea that maybe some Native Americans were tortured and murdered on the same property as the house. They really explored the whole John Ketchum, the alleged John Ketchum, you know, murderer, wizard, witchcraft guy thing that they explored in the remake. That I think that that's worth buying into. To really dig deep into 112 Ocean Avenue, what was there of 300 years ago? What took place there 300 years ago? And I think the deeper we go, the more we might be like, okay, why this is why there was a pig demon upstairs? Because why why a pig, you know? To me, I jumps out at me, why a pig? Like is that is that a certain type of demon? Like does it represent something? Or is it just who's not gonna think a six foot giant, you know, piglet is gonna be not scary? You know what I mean? Okay, so for that one, okay, let's let's look at biblical history when it comes to the pig. So you we're not supposed to eat swine. Is that Old Testament or New Testament? Old Testament. I'm sorry, Lord, I really like bacon. So do I. And he you know, is I mean, but we're not supposed to. No. Cannibalism will tell you the closest thing to tasting like people, human flesh, is swine, pigs. Great, so now we're gonna turn into Wendigos by accident. Yeah, exactly well, I mean, we're not human flesh, but I mean Well, I don't know anymore. But a lot of all these files and CIA uncover and everything all this stuff going on, who knows? Yeah, who maybe they are putting this stuff in our processed foods. Stay away from it. So maybe that's the reason why it was a swine, because it was considered an unclean. And but again too though, tied into to where when Jesus cast the demons out, he threw him into the swine. And they ran off a cliff. So maybe there's a tying into that. Why it was a pig. True. I mean it would I mean think about it. A demon would manifest as the most unclean thing that he could possibly think of that he can you know, obviously they can't show their true form. They would have to have a host body, you know, hence the reason for possession in the first place, but that would be pretty terrifying and to think, okay, just just to show that I'm evil, anybody that knows their Bible is gonna see why I'm here. Swine in the Bible, swine in the house. It makes I see where you're going with that. I like that. Thank you. Mm-hmm. So you know I'm trying to tie everything in to the you know, for the reasons behind it all and to give the audience a chance to you know, a a different perspective on the ⁓ you know, the Amnonville House. ⁓ you know, I mean there were so many things in twenty eight days that took place. I mean the blood running down the walls, the s weird slime stuff. ⁓ Levitation, ⁓ George and Kathy both levitated. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and what a lot of people they never portrayed this in in the movies though was The first attempt to leave the home they couldn't. They could not leave the home. They got out there into the van, tried to get it to start, could not get to start, would not fire up, nothing. It's where the family reluctantly goes back in. This is in the novel, goes back in to the home and goes to bed. George and Kathy wake up. George wakes up with his face pressed against the ceiling. He levitated up to the ceiling. Kathy is screaming beside him. The kids, the boys upstairs are freaking out. George was able to push himself, drops down to the bed. As he steps out of the room to go to the boys, at the top of the stairs was a cloaked figure. And this is where the slime and the ooze and everything coming down the walls. And the cloaked figure standing at the top of the stairs, looking at George, and just points at him. Like you're next, or the you're the reason for all this. So you know like George is the catalyst. ⁓ photo bomb, there we go. All right. That's all right. Go ahead, show ⁓ Good boy. He's like twenty pounds. If my little dog ⁓ realized what I was doing, he would be over here right now, but he's asleep on the couch, which is good because nobody would have recording. And I'm still inside, you guys, because it's a hundred thousand degrees here in Arkansas now. So I'm inside recording. To see my living room a little bit. But So George rushed you gets the boys they and they get out and they get into and and the van starts up and they b they bail out and they're out of the house. Now here's the thing, the van doesn't start, which automatically tells me that the paranormal activity and influence extends well beyond the walls of the house. Which that tells me the whole land is likely haunted, not just the home. So we already had pre existing activity and then George just came in and added gasoline to the already burning fire. W okay, well I want to say for example too though, so let's t again, we'll take DeFeo being demonic out of the out of the picture for a minute, just as a a a a a horrible sadistic killer. And George comes into a house that has six murders into it, being into this stuff already. The energy is already dark because of what took place. And I do believe that, you know, a lot of the hauntings are due to either a happy things, you know, the energy gets trapped, or really negative things, the energy gets trapped. You know, if you go to a wedding chapel, you automatically feel pretty happy. You go to a funeral home, you feel kind of down. Even if you're not there for a funeral, you just kinda feel down. You go to a cemetery. It's all that energy trapped right there. The you know naturally sad places like those. But if you go to like the wedding chapel or to a dance hall per se where happy things and good people are, you get a good vibe. You know, you walk in and you're kinda happy, like, yeah, this is kinda cool 'cause you're getting that that vibe ⁓ just already echoing the room. So now, you know, one one two Ocean Avenue, got the murders there, George comes in, practicing the occult. Maybe George brought this on himself. Maybe George did his own blessing of the house, and that's what stopped the blessing of ⁓ the Catholic Church when they came in. So you think he might have undid all the good that they did? They couldn't do it, but he already did it before. Love and light was not enough to cleanse that house apparently. They needed to go a whole little bit deeper than that. Well, think about so in the movie they show that George was kinda like, ⁓ really? The church has got to come in here and do this thing. So maybe George had already done his own ceremonies when they moved in or initially. Makes sense. I mean, most people have some sort of like cleansing ritual, sage, whatever, you know, in their own way, whatever that might be. Even if we don't consciously recognize it at the time, you know. I I mean I always pray when I move, so I did the same thing. So what if George came in there with the with his occult practice, whatever it may have been? And did worse and open stuff up and allow things in. So when the church tried to come in and bless the home, they couldn't. Damn that I could that's eight hours right there just looking at the psychology of George Lutz. You know, the he was a very smart man, but you would have to have a certain level of intellectual depth to even have an interest in that kind of subject matter to begin with. You know, you do you don't walk into the average man's house and see all the way from Eastern meditation on up to, you know, the Melba Ketchum DNA study. It's not just on anybody's bookshelf. No. No. My bookshelf I've got like I'm looking over right now. Haunted United States. ⁓ Quarterbacks of the Steelers. Well, I s no, quarterback is Steel, that's about Ben Rothesberger. ⁓ Star Wars book. ⁓ Cole Regent ⁓ Hoodoo. ⁓ what else can I read? Tales of the Tales from the Grid Square, you know, ⁓ Highway of Paranormal Stuff. So I have like a whole bunch of you know books. ⁓ I've got Living UFOs, you know, from Justin and J. Cruz of Korn. So but George comes in. I'm gonna go with the theory that I think George is the one, he's the catalyst behind all of this stuff that took place in twenty-eight days. I think he did a a ritual as soon as he moved in for his own beliefs, and that combined with the previous horrific event with the DeFeos opened the doors up and created this horrible situation. So you don't think there was any paranormal involvement during the DeFeo residency in the house? Like 'cause Ronnie did say it a couple times, like, ⁓ Dark Spirits told me to do it, whatever. But then again, he said, No, the mob killed my dad, the spirits killed my family. We can't take anything he says of face value at the time anyway. No, we can't. I mean he is he has contradicted himself too many times. ⁓ to where, you know, ⁓ the initi the big claim is initially when he came out of it was he was, you know, I mean, demonic dark forces told him to kill his family. And you know I think he tried to use a mob hit to try and cover up his own BS crime. How many rounds does a 32 Marlin lever action rifle hold? ⁓ let me look that up. Is it if because if it's five and then one in the tube, I have an idea. How many rounds does a one more time? 32 Marlin lever action rifle. I believe that was the weapon that he committed the murders with. Like 99% sure. Six rounds in the magazine plus one in the chamber for a total of seven. Interesting. Ronnie he killed six people, so he would have been the seventh person, right? So you have seven rounds, you fire six of ⁓ There's six people, six rounds, a seven ⁓ s ⁓ six in the six in the fucking mag sorry, pardon my language, in the magazine, plus one that's six six six, dude. But he's the seventh he's the seventh person killing the other six. Like, tell me that's not ritualistic and significant when it comes to numerology. You know what I mean? Six family members, six rounds, seventh son. I mean thirty two three times two is six. I mean, if you if you if we really start cracking into that aspect of things, it starts to look real ritualistic. And I don't think that that he would have been educated in the paranormal to be able to put that together himself, which further solidifies the possibility that there was some sort of an spiritual or otherwise secondary involvement during the murders. Well, you know he went and hit the rifle in New York. And that makes you wonder. Yeah, I mean after after the killings he he wouldn't hit the rifle. I remember that. So but Wow, six six six. Huh. Well, okay, so I I mean well we associate Six Six Six with the number of the beast. Now we're that's another show right there I could go into about Revelation. That's twelve hours easy right there. Yeah, I look at six six six. That was the number of Nero. Yeah. That was his name i numerically was six six six Nero was. And that's the time of Revelation was written, was probably one of the worst times to be a Christian in R the Roman Empire under Nero. So I wonder if Revelations and just for a side note, folks, don't get mad at me in the comments, but what if Revelation was actually written as propaganda against Rome and predicted the fall of Rome versus the fall of the world, because Rome was also known as the world at the time, and that's what John was writing about. So just a theory, don't get mad at me in the comments. Anyways, so Hey per that's what I buy into personally. I mean, you know me. I'm constantly digging into the book of Enoch, the Book of the Giants. All the ancient texts hold the answers to most paranormal stuff to me. I mean d not to not to go off the tunnel, not to go off the rail, but just like for a second. Even in Enoch, when the giants died during the flood, the first incursion of giants, Enoch himself said, being that they had nowhere to go, they were against God's own creation, basically. They were basically, Hey, I can't make something from nothing, but I can alter something you already made. So they're basically mockeries of God's own creation. So when they died, that's how demons came to be, according to the Book of Enoch. Their spirits endlessly wander the earth because there's no place for them to go. They can't go to Sheol. Because Sheol, you would have to have you'd have to have a soul from birth. And they don't. There's nowhere for them to go, so they just trap the wandering the planet. Makes you wonder, maybe Cain, maybe Cain is the same thing. Cain is another eight hour episode. So ⁓ on that note, I will end I will end that part of our segment. Exactly. Just remember everybody in the Bible it states no one knows the time and date other than me. That's from God's own words. So Revelation, I think, was written as propaganda against the Roman against Rome. So, anyways, on going back to Amityville. Alright. So the lust is plea, they get away, and now they're trying to figure out what to do. And for some reason, they get with an attorney. The first thing they did was hire an attorney. And the attorney they hired happened to be the same defense attorney for Ronnie DeFeo. You know, I'm the honest with you, I don't even know if I knew that little connecting bridge of information right there. Yep. It was he was the same attorney to where he actually tried to exploit money of them, they actually dropped him. ⁓ 'cause there were royalties in the book. So when the book was written and everything, he is tied in. I think when the movie was coming out is when they got him because ⁓ when the movie was the book and everything was being done, they were trying to get Ronnie involved and Ronnie was trying to have his attorney Hint hint nudge nudge, use what happened to Lester to help him get out of prison. Interesting. So justify their paranormal occurrences to be like, that's why I killed my family. Yep. Interesting. I like dropping those little bombshells right there. You what I ⁓ because if you think about it, like if you want to go real deep, then all of them just meet up and just plot this whole thing out first. You know what I mean? There's no ties or any connection at all whatsoever between the Les the DeFeo family. Ronnie or anybody at all. No no ties other than a year after Ronnie kills his family, the Leses move into his home. That's it. That's the only tie. And I know that Ronnie tried to get money, ⁓ royalty money from the Leses as well at one point. So the Leses start their whole thing. And of course they get a hold of the Warrens. We were talking about you know me we're Talked about them earlier. And the warrants came out to investigate. Now, she claims that when she met ⁓ George on the property, he refused to go into the home. He said, I will stand right here. You can go in if you want. I'm not going inside the home. That George refused to step foot inside the home. refused to do it. And what struck her on that one was when the sh they walked into the home, everything was still there. Stuff was still had been hadn't been unpacked yet. Boxes of stuff were still there. All of their personal belongings were still inside the home and George refused to go in and get any of it. I wonder why. I mean other than the obvious insinuated attachment at this point. You know, I don't after what we just went through, I don't want to be anywhere near it. But then again, if I'm the reason why all of these things happened, I really don't want to be involved. You know, this this could went way further than I ever planned it to. Maybe George dug a hole for himself and he doesn't have a shovel to dig himself out of it anymore. I agree. I agree. Because there are there are there are hints after the inreal house of George Does quit the occult and they start following a little bit more Christian values. Interesting. And I'll give you the hint coming up here shortly as well. So the Warrens come in, they investigate, and the Warrens come out and say, it Gemon, like evil entities are in the home. Right? They don't back up Ronnie DeFeo, they back up the Luxes, though. That's kinda awkward because i i according to both parties, it'd be the same things. So why would you be okay with one and not the other if it's the exact same frickin' thing? All that she came out and said was while she was there, the house was absolutely haunted. It was There was a a demonic presence there. And of course, we have to talk about the famous photo of the boy at the top of the stairs. So I'm going to share this with everybody. If you've never seen this photo before, you guys, this is coming off of a website, and I'll share this with you guys in just a second so you can look at it as well. And I believe this was never confirmed nor denied. No. There is the famous. Ghost boy. And this is supposed to be the little boy of the the of the the little brother of Ronnie. And look at the camera picking up that eye shine. Yeah. But back then too the flashes did that. Yeah. I mean, that's an almost completely solid manifestation. I mean, I know there was theories being thought tossed around for a little bit that so there was another little kid in the house at the time that because that just looked too much like a living child to pass as a ghost. But then again, in a house that's completely spiritually charged like that, there'd be plenty of energy for any of them to manifest, you know, I would think. If the laws of energy and all that stuff stand in the afterlife as well, then I would think that there's probably a bait pile of energy at that house. But you don't hear anything about it today. But I don't think the owners talk about it or they don't even want the public involved in it anymore. So times have changed with Amityville. I have. But you know, if you look at that picture though, so what really stands out to me like, you know so old school cameras, the flashwood, you know, you get the red eye. And it's a black and white photo, so why wouldn't you get, you know, the eye shine off of that? ⁓ which is odd, but you know, I gotta look into that. Can you get red eye from a black and white photo? I'll leave that picture up for everybody so they can look at it while we continue the time. Let me do that. Can you get red eye? Might be worth running that photo with your AI to have it change the eyes to red just to see how that would look. What does Google say? No, you cannot get red eye from a black and white photo. Red eye happens when a camera flash reflects off the blood vessels at the back of the the black and white photo removes all color, so any reflection would only show up as a shade of gray or white. Precisely what we're looking at. Exactly. So that's a person. I you're not gonna get ice shine off a ghost, right? That's a person. So I mean b with I'm but we'll call him hillbilly forensics. I think we might have deduced that's a that's the neighbor kid having fun in the house. That is that's that's a person. That's flesh and blood. But you know, nobody's ever came out and said that. And we just discovered that ourselves through the process of deduction. I think so. I mean there's Do I think that a spirit would end up on film after developing it? Yes. But to that level in the seventies? No. I mean what is this? Seventy four ish, seventy five? Seventy six. Seventy six is mistaken. Interesting. It's gotta be. I mean, and it happened long after the Lutz fled. Mm-hmm. So what happened in that gap of time? Well, the Lutz has moved in in December 1975. Okay. Okay. So if you can look in that picture too, and through the open door, you can see ⁓ you know bl ⁓ stuff in there. Yeah, you can. So this thing this this took all of its unwarranted we'll say credit for being of paranormal nature when it is probably ninety nine point nine percent likely a seven year old child from the neighborhood. Okay, ⁓ let me throw let me throw another one at you real quick. Ready? Mm-hmm. So George saw a six foot pig with red eyes. Excellent. Okay, okay. So The warrants are investigating and the photographer catches this picture by accident. Okay. What if it had manifested into a little boy? Mm. Interesting, because what do demons do? They shape shift in innocent things to lure you to wherever they want to do their thing. Mm-hmm. So what if it i it was a physical manifestation of something? Not a ghost. Because I have a hard time with ghosts. I have a hard time with ghosts. Spirits I believe in fully. I have a hard time that we're looking at the ghost of a dead child. And the thing with ghosts too, I mean, ghost is such a it's kind of like it's a canvas term, right? Ghost is a canvas term for things that we're looking at that should be dead. So when somebody says I saw a ghost, okay, well there's we have to categorize what kind of spirit you saw. Like there's a there's a certain list it fits into. And I don't think ghost does anybody justice just saying, ⁓ I saw ghosts in my house. Like, okay, well let's let's elaborate, let's expand. Okay, so we have okay, so with this picture still beating up, and you and me talking about the the term ghost. Okay. The God I believe in doesn't leave people behind. No. So I don't think he doesn't leave trapped souls behind. None of that stuff. And I upset a lot of people in the paranormal community are people who believe in this stuff. I really do. I believe that there are spirits. spirits and I believe there's spiritual energy that is out there that haunt houses, that haunt places. I think that when we see, you know, a a figure walk through the the the the living room that that's not paying attention, I think that's a residual and that's trapped energy that just pops out, just thump, thump, thump, thump. I I fully believe that. ⁓ I don't think that what you and I are looking at on this picture is a ghost. If this is either a a physical body of a neighborhood kid in the middle of the night for some reason, because this was taken at night, in the middle of the night. So why was the neighborhood kid in the house that night or a kid of one of the people there? But you think that those they wouldn't, you know, have said, ⁓ that's your son. ⁓ this is potentially a manifestation of something demonic. coming through because God's not gonna leave trapped spirits behind. I I have a hard time believing that the DeFeel children are not in heaven. That their ghosts are trapped in that house. I have a hard time with that. I think that ⁓ you know there are intelligent spirits that are out there that do interact with us. and I think that they're gonna give us the answer that we want. ⁓ did you die in this house in eighteen seventy? Yes. You know what I mean? I mean your soul is your consciousness So I do think that now I I'm with you, like I 99.9% I agree with you. But I also think I also think that like our consciousness, when we die, we don't know immediately. I think when your soul leaves your body, sometimes it takes a little bit. I mean, even medical science has stated that it can take up to 30 days for the brain to tell the body it's dead. So if your physical manifestation is alive and you're not aware that you're dead, you know, maybe once that awareness goes away. Then, you know, we go to heaven or whatever. But I also don't think that we just go either to heaven or hell. I think we go into like a sleep stasis until judgment day. Just like Revelation says, like no the risen, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rest of us I think that I do think that's how it's gonna work. So But looking at this You know what I mean? But looking at the hair, look at the hair, dude. Like you can't see through it. There's nothing to suggest transparency. You know, if you look at where the It would be his left like ear. You can kind of see it lean over the door and it contrasts separately from the door and the ear. If that were transparent, you would see solid white behind the hair and the ear. That overlap gives it away right there that if it were a ghost, it wouldn't it wouldn't manifest in contrast to that door. Look at the door, you see how ⁓ yeah, his head blocks out the door. Yeah. Right here. So ⁓ jump back over here to the picture. And again we will not have the white eyes. Mm-hmm. Or red eyes. I'd think that we would see the wall through it a little bit. It would be a semi transparent manifestation if it were legit. But look at how much money and publicity was made off of was what was probably someone's neighbor kit. Yep. See I I'm I I I I I'm gonna get away from the neighborhood kit. I mean I'm I on this one I have to go with I think this is potentially a ⁓ a shape shifter of something yeah of a something demonic. How many times how many times throughout history, the paranormal and everything, has ⁓ the ⁓ yeah, what scares you the most? ⁓ ghost children? The black eyed children. That phenomena right there. Black eyed children, there we go. So been used throughout because either A two things children are either A, you know, viewed upon as harmless innocent, and maybe this thing was you know, took on the form of one of the defailed children. to I don't know, be in the house. Because there's lots you I did every little blurb there. I do remember there's other pictures that you have taken right there and only that one shows like this thing peeking out. Okay, so let's say it is a physical manifestation. Mm-hmm. The eyes, like if we were to take the photo today What would the eyes look like? Would it would it show up as black? Would it be like more see-through? Would be see probably probably more of a blur. I don't think we would see that solid of an outline. Or what if it's a changeling? There's an idea. I mean a changeling is pretty much a a twin evil version, and they've been known to basically trade lives for hundreds of years. I mean, that story of changeling has gone around. I mean, it could be a lookalike. I tell you what, I'm gonna look up right now, see if we can do a side by side comparison here in a second. ⁓ Google Photos of what red eye on black and white photo looks like. I mean I can always have chat GPT to it as well. I think ChatGPT will start reading our mind. This is showing this is showing me artwork. This is not showing me anything. I feel like you buy a black and white photo. I feel like you've proposed an an ideology that was never explored before. Well thank you. It's not showing yeah, I'm not getting anything. Cat wolf with vampire eyes. What? Google, you're not helping me out any. Not in the slightest. But if there's nothing out there to compare it to, I mean, what's it gonna have to go off of? There's gotta be some sort of Okay, red eye on black and white photo. That I should be able to pull that up and see that, you know what I mean? I would think so. Okay, so let's do red eye on old. Black and white photos. Let's try that one. ⁓ the key word might be the the fixer. No what the This is where we need to bring in a photographer. Wait a minute, when I'm looking at that alleged ghost child, right? When I'm the more I look at it, look how sharp the features are. The nose is sharp, the the cheekbones are very pronounced. That almost has a like elven sort of look to it. Like a Lord of the Rings type thing. So I think you're onto something with it being some sort of demonic entity manifesting as a child. To gain access to that house. Now the question is why does it want to be there after everything that happened? Is there still something still something there? Now here's something else I want you look at. So in the bottom we have the picture of the little boy, right? Uh-huh. Okay, ⁓ who they think it is. Alright? Now look at the the eyes. The whole eye is glowing, not a spot. Yeah, there's not a single ounce of color. No, it's it it's full. And then what's going to do too? What if we're looking at some sort of like plasma filled entity and the camera flash is reflecting what's really going on behind the scenes? I mean, that flash for the eyes is what's the dead giveaway that, hey, that's not normal. It's real, it's solid, but it's not normal. Okay, so I am going to pull up ⁓ a picture of red eye. ⁓ let's see. Red eye full let's try do here we go. All right, so I'm gonna let me get that picture opened up. Alright, so everybody can see what go away. That's an advertisement. This is on DIY DY photography website. Alright, so let me go here. So everybody look at the picture. We've been staring at it for quite a while. Now let me show you let's see here, let's stop that. Let's go over here. So you saw how big the eye ⁓ mean how the eye shine was, right? Mm-hmm. Just solid white glowing balls, orbs basically. See the difference? So I think you're on point when you say it's some sort of non human entity posing or poorly as a human being. How crazy is that? I mean, think about it. It's I mean let's let's go, let's talk Bigfoot for a second. Mimicry. How many things in the woods sound similar to an animal, but they're just not it? They're off just enough to know that that's not what you hear. You know, Bigfoot making owl noises during the day, turkey noises, almost like wolf howls at some at certain times of day as well, I've noticed. I mean I lost my train of thought where I was going with that for a second, but we know where we're going with that. I do it all the time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's the ADHD. We're already we're we're already blazing another path when we haven't gotten to the end of the first one. Exactly. So all right, so going back okay, so now you know we ca we catch that. So the now the Let's just decide they're gonna go on do a book tour and a movie tour to where George actually had a hand in a lot of the movie, by the way. Mm-hmm. He was on set a lot. He had a lot of h you know, direction to where ⁓ ⁓ my gosh, what was his name? What was his name? ⁓ hang on. The actor? Yeah, James Brawlin. ⁓ yes. So James actually came out and said he fully believes George. The he him and George had numerous conversations about what took place in George like on no, this is what happened. This is how I reacted to this event. Interesting. So which was very fascinating. ⁓ that was one of the earlier ⁓ interviews ⁓ when the film was being released and everything. So the fan so George and Kathy go on a book and movie tour. They're on TV shows, they're everywhere they can be. All three kids were put into a ⁓ Catholic foster school. Interesting. So George realized what took place, what he had created, what he had done, and put them into a Catholic Foster care. Interesting. Now why would someone go and do something like that after everything that allegedly took place? Yep, and it it bothered it bothered the boys a lot. The whole the I mean the kids were I mean, yeah, they were they were in there for a while, then it ⁓ they missed her mom and dad, obviously. Yeah, for sure. And then ⁓ once I was Danny. ⁓ what was the other kid's name? Why am I drawing a blank, Alvis Eddon? I am too to be honest with ya. ⁓ it was Danny or the his brother came out and said that when the movie and everything came out, the ⁓ the kids at school were like going, ⁓ my gosh, was that really you? And he says we didn't see the movie and one of them snuck into the theater to see it. Okay. And so and he goes, And there I there I am looking and there's my life up on screen. So they did a decent reenactment of it then I would assume. I mean According to the kids, yeah. And so what really got me there's the two documentaries and both brothers came out and did it. What really bothers me is that all three siblings aren't close. At all. When the internet was coming out, ⁓ the one I I don't think it was Danny, ⁓ the other kid went and got the domain for Amneyville. Okay. And he knew because George was still trying to cash in on it after him and Kathy got divorced, ⁓ he was still trying to cash in on it. So the one kid went and bought the domain. And George sued him over it. Really? Yep, and George lost. And he goes, Yep, I own the domain. The legal battle is almost as interesting as the paranormal aspects of it, you know? Yep. To where George was going to conferences, George was doing everything, going out there selling books and all the other stuff and talking about it, yeah. Now was there any significance with November thirteenth that we could was there any sort of moon cycles on that day? Or was there any sort of planetary alignment the night of the Defeo murders that could have been part of it? Especially if you follow the ritualistic killing methodology that I'm that I'm buying into. Hang on, I'll look that up. Keep talking that way it's ⁓ there's no dead air. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's just it's just strange though, 'cause it's like I mean I'm not saying the guy was educated in the dark arts, but somebody that he associated with was. Here, you know what? I'll use my phone to be quicker. And either they were either they planned it out together or there was something that neither of us can explain. I mean Again here we can do another show about this sometime if you want, Elisa Lamb. That that would be a really, really interesting one to talk about. Because I mean i yeah. All right. ⁓ on November thirteenth, nineteen seventy four, the moon was in a whining crescent phase, roughly one percent or less of its disk illuminated by the sun. Interesting. It was at the very end of the lunar cycle, just one day before the new moon occurred on November fourteenth. What day of the week was that? What day was November thirteenth, nineteen seventy four? Yep, I'm looking at that right now too. I don't know why I don't know that. Approximately ten days before Thanksgiving. It was Wednesday. That's the middle of the week. Okay, so Wednesday we have a waning crescent moon. Then we have a bunch of murders take place and the following day we have a new moon basically. Like in a nutshell, that's a sequence of events. Now, if somebody were to do a sacrifice of sort, they would do it at the end of one cycle and between the beginning of another, I would think. Possibly, yeah. ⁓ I study demonology for quite a while, simply on the basis of like when I study these old texts, it helps to know what you're dealing with, it helps to know what they're talking about, and it helps to know that is what this text saying an actual area or is this a generalized term for the subject. You know what I mean? The Bible's either literal or it's not sometimes. So that's just how I think. So when I look into aspects of that, you kill six people in between the end of one lunar cycle and the beginning of another. Like but to to I don't know, I don't have the other half of that. But everything's just pointing towards ritualistic. Six rounds, six people I mean November thirteenth is ⁓ World Kindness Day. So that's almost just like a straight up mockery. Well, why is three AM considered the witching hour? Well, because Christ rose from the tomb at three PM. So naturally we're gonna do anything to try to mock God, so that's why they call it the witching hour. I I wonder if that's the same kind of ideology. I so when I wake up and I wake up a lot Between two thirty and three thirty all the time. And every time I wake up, the first thing I do is I go, Thank you, God. Thank you for all the many blessings in my life and continue to you know, I I immediately pray and give thanks. Immediately. You know, if the bell is the clo thinness of that point in time, I'm gonna use it for good. I mean, I have felt weird things at certain times of day, but I kind of feel like when you have seen what you and I have seen. And when you've been in the woods and encountered stuff that's not supposed to exist and had it follow you home and all that kind of stuff, you the you look at the world in a different way. You know, you're there's no longer this veil of I work nine to five and I go home and I take a nap on my couch and I eat dinner and I go to bed. You realize that that's all just a facade to what's really going on underneath everything. It's you know, it's like that for a long time. You know what I mean? It's like Blade. The vampire war beneath the city and the normal city on top of it. I mean That's it, it's essentially that dual stacked reality going on between our realm and theirs. I think that happens more than p I I I I think actually it's all the time. ⁓ I was just having this conversation yesterday, actually. ⁓ I was like, listen, the w the you know, the world that you ⁓ Blade put in the first one, the world that you live in is not the real world. This is that's not it. This is the real world. Yeah, I think we've gotten so far away from it. I brought this you I bring it up a lot, you know, when it comes to cryptos paranormal. If you go back three hundred years ago, let's just go three hundred years ago. Always does this. ⁓ my gosh. Alright, 300 years ago, your house is haunted. You go to church. You tell your pastor what's going on. And what's the first thing they do? Show up in mass with a whole bunch of prayer warriors and then go through and go to battle. Mm-hmm. Now, you go to your pastor. Hey, I think my house is haunted. First question. What drugs are you on? Second question. What drugs are you supposed to be on? Yeah. The whole w the the war has never ended. It's never ended. Between, you know, good and evil, it's never ended. And it's an ongoing, constant battle every day. And there are there's more to the world than People realize it's not this concrete jungle and nine to five and logging in and doing that and checking this out and watching this show and doing all that. ⁓ that's entertainment stuff though, but there's a lot more going to it. And like you said earlier, when no when you know, guys like you and I who go and do what we do and you know, guys and gals who do what we do, let me correct myself there, 'cause there's a lot of, you know, great, you know, women out there that do the same thing. There is a ho that's the real world. It there is a spiritual world that we that is around us all the time. We are always in spiritual battles all the time. And we don't realize that that all the time that we are what we're dealing with. And people just you know, they like to just kind of pull up their black mirrors and take a look at that and they wanna just pretend like it's not fair and they wanna go and say, Well this person is you know, they w ⁓ they'll jump on the clickbait. And they'll be like going, ⁓ yeah. You know, you you talk to a lot of people and then they go, Well, any kind of haunting or anything like that, er all of them are demonic. It's all it's all evil. It's all evil. And I'm going, No. No, it it's really not. There's you know, a lot of hauntings are either residual, you know, just stored up energy from that place, or or they're, you know, just spirits, you know, or they're intelligent. And the intelligent ones, you know, I think are invited in. Like I don't have a welcome mat on my front door. No. Cause it's lying. You're not welcome. You know? Nothing don't you know, I have iron stakes at every corner of my house. Outside. You know, so my home is protected. I use some of the old know, Old Testament ways of of protection, everything with iron and nothing comes into my house that is gonna be potentially negative or ⁓ whether it be energies from other people or whatnot. I I mean, yeah, it's just not gonna happen. You know, exactly. So yeah, and we're at battle constantly with these entities. And people seem to get ⁓ don't realize that. And I just went on a rant about that and I apologize. No, I mean I get it and because it all ties in. Like when I look at the whole field of the paranormal and I look at the whole field of cryptozoology, it's all one giant tree, but each category has its own branch. So naturally they all intersect. One high strangeness leads to another. I mean look at for example, probably one of the best examples is the Bennington Triangle. Okay. I mean, two hundred square miles. Or if was it two thousand actually? I know it's whatever it is, it's massive. And all the phenomena that just occurs within that triangle alone. That tells me that power gets stored up in alignment. Like a triangle pyramid. I mean, that would be the strongest foundation. Why would you you know, why would they not create something that would make it the strongest, especially if it's a commuate for some sort of higher power? A hundred percent agree. I I'll be honest with you, I I fully believe that the Bible is actually man's history, not the world's history, not earth's history. And I shake up a lot of modern day Christians by you know saying that. You know, if they're gonna say what if we're going off the Bible, then yeah, the world's only five thousand years old, which is false. But the Bible was created as man's history, our history, how we came to be. If you look at man, you know, we are the most unique creature in living thing on this planet. We cannot survive without shelter, clothing, and certain types of food. Yeah. I mean, we can't. Well I mean seriously, we cannot. I mean, the outside world is hostile to us. Yeah. You know, you and me get dropped off in the middle of nowhere with just what we have on now And with no hunting skills at all whatsoever, we're gonna be dead soon. Absolutely. You know, so this is where, you know, I we we are. Yeah, I look at like the Nathanderos, there is, you know, for example, Cain when he got cast out, he was afraid. He was afraid of what? You know what I mean? When Satan was cast down, you know, out of heaven and he struck the earth, the city shook. What cities? So to me. Yes, but they weren't Man. They were your early primitive humans. Yes. Those are your Neanderthals, your Chromagnons, your Dinosobins, all of our exactly. And that and that makes perfect sense. And that would probably be what the fallen angels would have bred with to create a Bigfoot, if my line of thinking of where I think they come from is accurate, of course. All this is purely speculative framework. Nobody knows. But I think I think Sasquatch was here before Adam was here. Yeah. I mean I I think Sasquatch is his own type of unique creature. And I could dig we could dig in some of the other critters further down the road. Mm-hmm. So we could ⁓ I could do this, ⁓ my gosh, for hours more. Okay, real quick. All right. We do it's almost an hour and a half. We gotta bring it in for landing. Yeah, we've been flying, we're running low on gas. We've been flying for a while. We have okay, let's ⁓ let's bring it in on ⁓ get ready to bring it in for landing. ⁓ final thoughts now on the amine bill. Now that we got some new theories and new stuff up, what are your final thoughts? My final thoughts? I mean, you've you've broadened my horizons on it a little bit because I kind of stayed stagnant on it for a little while. Like I just kind of thought, yep, obviously it's paranormal. Looking at that kid, that kid photo when I was younger, that was, ⁓ yeah, that's just a photo of a child, right? Or just a photo of a ghost kid. And then you bring in and put and submit the idea that what if this is some sort of shape shifting entity? to look like the deceased little boy that died in that house. Like you really opened my eyes to it. I think that Do I think there was a money grab going on? Yes. But I don't think that that takes away from the horrors that occurred there. I just think you saw people that were trying to make it rich off of their own situation is what was going on in my honest opinion. I don't know enough about what happened outside of the actual details of the home to have Too much of a say on that part of it. You know what mean? I don't want to speak on things I don't know of. Definitely, you know, and I agree with you on that one. I do think that George and Kathy did cash in on their experience. And, you know, no, kudos to them. I mean, Rock I mean, yeah, you're gonna take something horrible that happened to you and your family and exploit it, putting it on TV. Rock on. I wouldn't do it to my kids. No. But you know, so you know, with my final thoughts to looking at that photo and bringing it in, I fully believe that Something did happen to the Lutz family for twenty-eight days that caused them to and I look at this from a home you know homeowner, ⁓ property owner, business owner kind of perspective. You know, I always tell everybody always follow the money. Always follow the money. So twenty-eight days is not enough time to acquire any debt in a home. ⁓ It doesn't make any sense then. Why do we want to go capitalize when we weren't really in financial straits to begin with? Exactly. I mean they were exactly pretty well to do for the seventies, I would say. You know, he had his pension coming in, he was a contractor. I don't know what I cannot remember what Kathy did. Was she just a stay at home mom? I think she was a stay at home mom. Okay. So I think no, she y well, she had been a waitress. Okay. So ⁓ so she was a stay at home mom. ⁓ I don't think they did this for ⁓ I I I think they went about the fame wrong, but that's my opinion, I think that could have been handled totally differently. I think George got a taste of the fame and wanted to exploit it for the rest of his life, to be honest with you. I really makes sense. So ⁓ 'cause I mean, yeah. But the same token too, it was but something happened to this family for twenty eight days to where the kids no longer talk. ⁓ the two boys that came out Finally broke their silence, came out and talked about it. ⁓ both of them do concur that a lot of what was portrayed actually did happen. Mm-hmm. Some other things talked about as well. ⁓ the babysitter incident, a whole bunch of others, you know, when the babysitter got locked into the closet. What I find funny though is how the possessions and everything centered around the little girl. And I think the reason why that she was picked was because she was the little sister. The two brothers were always playing together. She was always kinda left out. And that's the reason why the entity lashed on to her. And I think that George was the center of the storm of that home. Because I don't think it lashed on to him at all. I think went after her. And I think Geor you know, I have to look at George as you know, he may have been a strict stepfather, but I do know that he did love the kids. I do know that he loved the kids and Kathy enough to marry her and the kids in nineteen seventy five. Those are I mean, those are blatant facts. Yes. You know, my mom and stepdad got married in nineteen eighty two. You know, and my stepdad took me and my little sister in as his own. So, you know, and then my you know, my dad got remarried to ⁓ my stepmom and she was the same way with me and my sister as well. So, you know meeting those people like that is extremely unique. I do think that resentment grew from the boys and the kids due to the fact that they were left behind. That's what I think took place. I think that's where the resentment came in at. They were left behind. They wanted to be with mom and dad after this horrific event and mom and dad went on book tours and movie tours. I mean that's a valid reason to be PO'd. I mean I'll clearly we're we're taking this horrific series of events, capitalizing on it monetarily and then just kind of leaving the kids on the back burner. Yeah. I think that's I think that's where a lot of it comes from. So that's my final thoughts. I like it. My opinion my opinion on the Amnivale horror hasn't changed since I was a kid. I do believe something ⁓ was there, I believe it was gone now. ⁓ I know that the warrant she went back and said ⁓ she did go back. ⁓ she was able to go back years later under another property owner and as she entered in she did say, Okay, there's still some things here but nowhere where it was at in nineteen seventy six. Okay. So yeah she does yeah and ⁓ no the energy's different everything is different ⁓ she says it was more vibrant and everything So she was able to go back. I do know that. ⁓ they were invited in. But, you know, that's how it is. So, Scott, brother, man, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Always a good time. We're doing another one here in ⁓ here in a in a couple of weeks for some announcements and some other stuff. We'll get back into Bigfoot. So it's kinda fun to take a break away from ⁓ Bigfoot for a minute with another listener and And do some really good dives onto a really infamous mill haunting. So thank you for coming on and doing this with me. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me. All right. Well, real quick, tell everybody real quick where they can find you at. You guys can find me. Just look up Scott Brush on Facebook or just join my Urban Bigfoot page. It's a good place, it's a safe place. Share your stories, your evidence, theories. We'd be happy to have you. I'm on Urban Bigfoot. You guys look it up on ⁓ Facebook. So Scott Brother Band, thank you very much, man. I appreciate you. Absolutely, man. All right everybody out there, you guys know the deal, man here you remember, life is the longest thing that you will ever do. Why be miserable at it? So here's the missing a good beer. Y'all stay safe. Can be anything Yeah.