Interprovincial Transmission: Indigenous Ownership and Grid Modernisation

WEBVTT
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Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
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which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
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the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
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resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
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I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Rob Brantard,
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joined today by Kwetuma Cole -Sires, co -founder
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and executive director of the Indigenous Power
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Coalition. Kwatuma has built his career in clean
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energy advocacy and First Nations partnerships,
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starting in clean energy project development
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funding, moved into the executive director role
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of Clean Energy BC, and is now leading a direct
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effort to position First Nations as collective
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owners in major transmission infrastructure.
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Canada is entering one of the largest electricity
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infrastructure build -outs in its history. Transmission
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lines, grid interconnections and clean power
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capacity will cross dozens of First Nations territories.
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The infrastructure cannot proceed without Indigenous
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partnership and equity ownership. Here's what
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investors need to understand. When First Nations
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frame these projects as assets generating benefits
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across seven generations, they're describing
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a governance structure that aligns precisely
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with pension capital fund holding periods. The
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alignment is deliberate, it's structural, and
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will make a difference. In our conversation,
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you'll discover why development stage capital
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is now the real bottleneck for Indigenous -led
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infrastructure. The pre -development phase where
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costs run $100 to $200 million is where risk
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is highest and capital is thinnest. You'll learn
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how First Nations collective ownership actually
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de -risked transmission projects for sponsors
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and their financiers. And you'll understand why
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European pension funds and infrastructure investors
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are increasingly active in Canadian electricity
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transmission, anchored by Indigenous equity partners
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managing 100 -year assets. Kwatuma Colsears,
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the co -founder and executive director of the
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Indigenous Power Coalition. Thanks for joining
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us. Really a pleasure to meet you. Thanks for
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having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes, great
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to have you join us, Cole. Let's get right into
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the conversation. So you founded the Indigenous
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Power Coalition just a few months ago, I understand.
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And then in July, you launched the Western Transmission
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Catalyst Initiative. So there's a lot going on.
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Can you introduce yourself to our UK and international
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audience? primarily made up of asset managers,
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investment managers, and corporates. And tell
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a little bit about yourself, of course, and then
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how you've ended up to where you are today and
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what you're actually trying to build. For sure.
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Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, Rob and Mark.
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It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Cuauhtémoc
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Colsears. I'm calling in from my home territory
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on central Vancouver Island. I'm Hoopa Chasit,
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and I've been a clean energy advocate for most
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of my career. I started in a funding role to
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help First Nations clean energy projects, small
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-scale clean energy projects in British Columbia
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get started. That was anywhere from demand -side
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management programs to small -scale renewables
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in rural communities, displacing diesel. But
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then there was a challenge. There was an opportunity
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to sell power. So I moved into an advocacy role.
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And that's where I became the executive director
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of Clean Air UBC, which is an industry association
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for the renewables industry in British Columbia.
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So that's where I started to advocate for the
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need for the growing demand that was looming.
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And then also advocate for First Nations partnerships.
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procurement and things have changed very very
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quickly uh demand did materialize and we were
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really scrambling to procure new power so i work
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with pc hydro the the crown utility here to help
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them bring in first nations in the procurement
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design how partners can be how partnerships can
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be structured in a way that is flexible to allow
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for first nations to choose how they want to
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participate And on the back end, just really
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support nations on the capacity building side
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with creating materials for strong partnerships,
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key considerations, and things like that. You
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know, in my previous half, we had over 80 BC
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First Nations members. And so we always congregated
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to see what are your needs, how can we meet them,
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how can we support you? So there was this opportunity
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to join and co -found an organization that could...
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elevate the role of First Nations in major projects
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by filling a need. And there was a need as an
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organization to play a convener role to support
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truly Indigenous -led major projects that would
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be on their terms. That way we can move from
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just passive participants to project proponents,
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project leaders, owners, and long -term partners.
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And a lot of nations, you know, they're growing
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their technical expertise, their capacity. And
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so now it's just a matter of like when you're
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dealing with linear infrastructure, you're dealing
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with, you know, 10, 20, 30 nations. So how do
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you bring them together so that they're a collective
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owner that's on their terms? That's where I think
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this is powerful as it comes in. And we have
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some support, financial support from federal
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government and other sources that support our
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work in terms of... convening and capacity building
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for First Nations. And hopefully we'll have Project
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X in the next few years. It's still early and
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unfortunately I will speak too much to it, but
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our focus is electricity, specifically into retro
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transmission. And yeah, McCann's entering one
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of the largest electricity infrastructure build
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-outs in its history. And much of that infrastructure
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will cross First Nations territories. And that's
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why it's critical that we center First Nations
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leadership in those projects. And the Western
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Transmission Catalyst complements that work by
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addressing the technical policy and planning
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barriers that slow major transmission projects.
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And also, it also addresses some historical barriers
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for inter -provincial transmission, because historically
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there have been challenges where, you know, provinces
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don't work together. There's complexity with
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different market structures. And so we addressed
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that in our initiative to bridge that gap. And
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one of the key ways is that modeling. So we all
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have a collective truth in terms of how does
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this line impact both systems? And that will
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help everybody be on the same page so it can
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answer questions like cost allocation or distribution
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of benefits. In addition to convening those utilities,
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those provinces, all the players are needed in
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the same room so that we can all have this conversation.
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How do we get this built? And also, how do we
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advance reconciliation with First Nations at
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the same time? So we're hoping to elevate Indigenous
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leadership and major projects, not just for the
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electricity sector, but also for other industries
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as well. Well done, Cole. Yes. Excellent summary
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of what's going on. Just before we go on, just
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one thought. Can you explain? A little bit about
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the North American grid, because you're talking
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about the interprovincial issues, but the grid,
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we have a shared grid with the U .S. Is that
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correct? That's right, yeah. European, and I'm
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not the expert on inter -regional electricity
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planning. We have members who study that, Madeline
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McPherson and Blake Schaefer. I know Europe,
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the European context, there's a lot of great
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examples of different jurisdictions being connected
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and sharing trading power. In North America and
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Canada, the US specifically, the Canadian grids,
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it's broken down by province. They're all kind
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of little islands. They're not connected east
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-west. Most of our power goes north -south. So
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BC, we have a lot of hydropower. Same with Quebec
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and Manitoba. Most of that power goes south.
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And then power from the US comes up when it's
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available, whether it's solar or wind, nuclear,
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whatever it is. And so there's been a priority
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to enhance more east -west electricity trading
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for sovereignty, but also just for... technical
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reasons reliability affordability these types
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of interconnections between grids shows all these
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benefits to the rate payers and the taxpayers
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in addition to like all the additional economic
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benefits that come when you have more available
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uh power uh you have infrastructure to increase
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uh affordable supply uh to due to jurisdictions
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um so all these benefits that we see and we are
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trying to remind folks that these are the benefits
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the benefits Everybody, we need to move from
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each of our sides to see the benefits of more
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connections. So yeah, European, I'm sure it's
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nothing new. But yeah, in the U .S. and Canada,
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specifically Canada, we need to do more. We need
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to build more. Yeah, well done, Cole, for this
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initiative. As you said, the need is huge across
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the country. Maybe talk a little bit about your
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family. from a well -known West Coast family.
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Your mother was chief of the Hupakaseth. And
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maybe talk about what you learned from her, your
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family generally, about development, Indigenous
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-led development, and how that's evolved over
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the last few years and decades. Yeah, yeah, happy
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to. Learned from my mom. She's been a trailblazer
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for Indigenous economic development and reconciliation.
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She was certainly an advocate in the early days
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back when reconciliation wasn't a thing. And
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I remember she was working with this mining company
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and this guy, Marco Romero, was seen as a pariah
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because of how much he went to the First Nations
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and wanted to involve them in partnerships. And
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this was like early 2000s. But now that's the
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standard. So it's remarkable how things change.
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And so what my mom taught me was that, you know,
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it's leadership isn't just about opposing projects.
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It's about creating better alternatives. You
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can't provide solutions. And so instead of a
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smelter plant in Port Alberni, she wanted to
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go out and find renewable energy development.
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And so she built the first First Nations majority
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owned and led Warner River project. And so that's
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just for folks who don't know what that is. It's
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when you have rainwater and you use a creek,
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usually higher elevations, and it goes down a
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penstock, which is like a pipe, and then the
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pipe goes through the turbine. So it's mostly
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rainwater. It's usually higher elevations so
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you don't impact fish. And then that creates
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electricity, clean, emissions -free electricity.
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And it's about 6 .5 megawatts, so it's not big,
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but it's a good size for our nation. And it was
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the first one. about 20 years ago that she built.
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And I remember as a kid, she was learning how
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to build this project. And I always remember
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there was one guy in the industry back then who
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said, First Nations would never own nobody projects
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because they're just too complicated. And so
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she was, so she took that as a challenge and
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said, well, I'm going to build one. And she did.
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And I remember we had some folks from China who
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were suppliers and manufacturers for turbines.
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And they came to Port Bernie. We were having
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dinner at this local Chinese restaurant, one
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of our favorites called Beijing. And yeah, it
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was great to see the process that we're learning
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as a kid. And so, yeah, so I'm just trying to...
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What years are we talking when that was going
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on? Probably like 2003. Yeah. Or actually maybe
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before that, actually, 2001, 2002. Right. Or
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the 2000s. So imagine how far we've come in 20
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odd years. Yeah. She started the First Nations
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working group in the Clean Energy BC to help
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build capacity. She did a lot of the early work.
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When I got there, there was already a strong
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base of a network of First Nations who are sharing
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best practices, knowledge, mentorship. We were
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just about creating space and supporting that
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space for those nations to continue that important
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work. I am now kind of just in the first steps
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trying to see where there's a need and try to
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advocate for providing solutions to that need.
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And right now, that's, I think, system -level
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thinking for how do we expand our electricity
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system to meet growing need and how do we do
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it in the most affordable way possible to benefit
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the ratepayer, the taxpayer, and first nations.
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Yes, and a very timely moment with fires burning
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across the European continent. huge fires across
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North America and Canberra forest. And here we
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are talking about clean energy. We're behind
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the eight ball. Okay. We've had our Southern
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neighbor decide, you know, we don't need that,
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which is just an unfortunate, it'll be a blip
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in history of the time lost for that. But in
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the two roles that you have, you've, you've talked
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a little bit about the two organizations and
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explained a bit but can you just go through that
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once again so it's very clear because the organization
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that you started earlier is about helping coalitions
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of nations get themselves ready whereas the catalyst
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project is about breaking down barriers between
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provinces and the infrastructure and the grid
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itself is that correct that's correct yeah yeah
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and For sure. And the Indigenous Coalition building
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is through the Indigenous Power Coalition. And
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the Western Transmission Catalyst does include
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Indigenous leadership as a core principle, but
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its core work is also the modeling aspect. So
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we have Dunsky advisors who do a lot of modeling
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for utilities. We have strong academics who advise
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the federal government in Madeline McPherson
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and Blake Schaefer. We have robust modeling team,
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really smart people. The challenge there is having
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a common set of truth where there's common datasets
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from both systems and modeling that out about
00:15:03.860 --> 00:15:08.100
how a line could impact both systems. As of now,
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:11.600
my understanding is that Historically, each utility
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.980
goes up with a preferred modeling consultant,
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.340
and then they model off the impact of a line,
00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.200
models the other system, but then the other system
00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:25.000
says, well, it's wrong. Our modeler says this,
00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:27.019
and then negotiations break down once you get
00:15:27.019 --> 00:15:29.899
into the weeds around seams issues or other technical
00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:33.240
issues. That's why we really need an objective,
00:15:33.500 --> 00:15:38.799
credible third party to collect that data and
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.879
say, these this is the impacts based on you know
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.279
this model that we've all collectively designed
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.399
this is your both of your data sets it's you
00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.059
know confidential and so now we can have this
00:15:50.059 --> 00:15:52.960
common set of truth to inform our discussions
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.379
um especially when we start thinking around you
00:15:56.379 --> 00:15:58.120
know how does the federal government play a role
00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.379
you know every province wants the federal government
00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.179
to show up with the checkbook well the federal
00:16:02.179 --> 00:16:03.779
government also needs to have this these answers
00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:07.480
too So it benefits everybody, helps move the
00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.559
conversation along. And on the Western Transmission
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.460
Catalyst, we do have all four Western provinces
00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:16.639
signed on to our initiative and each utility
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:21.320
and grid operators. So it is progressing. We
00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:26.960
are optimistic, but utilities are very conservative
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:31.000
creatures, understandably. They have to maintain
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.700
affordability for their... for the rate payers.
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.120
So it's just a matter of just continuing to look
00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.820
at the bigger picture that it's going to benefit
00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:43.539
you as well. And we can't get broken down into
00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:47.639
very, we can't get lost in the weeds, for example.
00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:52.799
And so they play the role of convener for the
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.059
utilities, the provinces to see that big picture
00:16:55.059 --> 00:16:59.200
while also addressing indigenous participation.
00:17:00.990 --> 00:17:05.269
Cole, when you look around, and it sounds like
00:17:05.269 --> 00:17:07.210
you can't talk about some of the projects that
00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:08.849
are in the works that you might be working on
00:17:08.849 --> 00:17:11.150
right now, but some of the projects that are
00:17:11.150 --> 00:17:16.569
public that you look to as models, maybe talk
00:17:16.569 --> 00:17:19.130
about some of those where you see the future.
00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:23.190
I'm thinking of things like the North Coast Transmission
00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:25.829
Line and Cool Power and the way they're leading.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.480
a proponent 50 50 on a transmission line with
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.200
bc hydro but uh what do you see when you look
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:39.240
at across the landscape yeah i think it's an
00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.180
evolution i always say that um you know equity
00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:45.980
ownership isn't uh whether it's you know minor
00:17:45.980 --> 00:17:48.859
or whatever the nominal amount is it's not an
00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:51.339
endpoint it's a transition point we need to continue
00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:54.940
to elevate uh indigenous participation in these
00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.660
projects and oftentimes that's you know more
00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:00.299
in the weeds you know how are they part of the
00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:03.559
decision making authority of the project and
00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.640
i'm always an advocate of greater first nations
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:09.039
participation and decision making at all at all
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:13.059
steps you know even in the bc hydro system and
00:18:13.059 --> 00:18:17.079
governance and how and how decisions are made
00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.519
in their investments in their systems so that
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.779
first nations are part of those decisions and
00:18:22.779 --> 00:18:25.640
not just passive equity owners where there's
00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:28.420
a line, design built, then we're coming with
00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:32.500
you with an equity offer. We want to flip that
00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.319
script and say, well, let's start from the very
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.700
beginning together and say that this is a potential
00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:39.140
project. This is how the nations want to be involved.
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:43.740
They want to be involved with deciding and routing.
00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:46.700
They want to have this type of decision -making
00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:50.450
power. So it's on their terms. And there's going
00:18:50.450 --> 00:18:54.130
to be a variation for nations on capacity or
00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:56.549
interest or resources for the extent to which
00:18:56.549 --> 00:18:59.890
they want to be involved. The risk tolerance
00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:03.390
can vary, but we want to have that door open.
00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:06.630
And I think cool power in the North Coast transmission
00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:08.910
line are really great examples. I think it's
00:19:08.910 --> 00:19:12.650
a step forward, as we're seeing in Canada. So
00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:15.289
we just want to keep moving forward, building
00:19:15.289 --> 00:19:17.970
off. building off cool power, building off of
00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:21.210
the example of NCTL, North Coach Emission Line,
00:19:21.369 --> 00:19:24.049
and see how we can just elevate Indigenous equity
00:19:24.049 --> 00:19:27.609
ownership in major projects. Yeah, when you talk
00:19:27.609 --> 00:19:30.769
about that progression, it's been years in the
00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:33.549
making, but the fight decades ago just to be
00:19:33.549 --> 00:19:37.349
noticed at all, and then legal rights defined
00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:42.009
more and more over time, and so consultation
00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:45.730
rights eventually. But sometimes those weren't
00:19:45.730 --> 00:19:49.670
meaningful consultations or meaningful accommodations
00:19:49.670 --> 00:19:54.410
after the consultation. And then equity stakes
00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:58.349
became prevalent. Sometimes those were very small
00:19:58.349 --> 00:20:00.650
stakes and maybe not as meaningful. And then
00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:04.910
now you're seeing a full -blown equal majority
00:20:04.910 --> 00:20:12.509
Indigenous -led major projects. So your organization
00:20:12.509 --> 00:20:15.250
is going to be right in the middle of a fair
00:20:15.250 --> 00:20:19.269
bit, I can imagine. Yeah, I mean, I think the
00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:21.910
window is open. I think we have to strike while
00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:25.349
the iron's hot and really help shape the discourses,
00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.190
but also policy and procurement design to really
00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:33.029
bake in higher standards. When I was working
00:20:33.029 --> 00:20:37.089
with Visa Hydro, our goal was, how do we create
00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:40.859
a floor without creating a ceiling? And the next
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.140
one is continue to elevate indigenous benefits,
00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:49.619
both equity and non -equity, and have that progression
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:52.160
of being able to measure it openly with the nations.
00:20:53.339 --> 00:20:58.400
When we're overseas here and perhaps pension
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.480
fund or institutional investor over in London,
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.900
when they look and see these projects now, one,
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.980
can you describe a bit? about what this looks
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.779
like? Because for a lot of them, they haven't
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:13.380
heard about this, all the changes recently. It's
00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:14.960
kind of new from the indigenous perspective.
00:21:15.099 --> 00:21:16.740
Obviously, it's great. You have a seat at the
00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:19.039
table that you always should have had. But now
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.019
you have that. And some people might be, this
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:26.440
is all unsettling for them. How would you pitch
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:32.579
what's going on to investors over here? It's
00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:35.730
a great question. And I might just start. To
00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:39.089
plug my previous job, I had some European developers
00:21:39.089 --> 00:21:43.990
in Spain, France, who were hugely supportive
00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:46.210
of First Nations equity partnerships and would
00:21:46.210 --> 00:21:49.390
always fly out to Prince George or some remote
00:21:49.390 --> 00:21:51.509
community in the north to meet with their partners
00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:55.069
or even just meet with the province to advocate
00:21:55.069 --> 00:21:58.500
all of our... all of our key messages around,
00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:00.339
you know, digital participation and partnerships,
00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:03.339
supporting loan guarantees, all that stuff. So
00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:07.200
I think when folks, you know, see it on the ground,
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.240
they become really, not just believers, but huge
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.180
supporters. But for the investors, you know,
00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:16.099
I think, you know, when they see an Indigenous
00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:19.440
-led project in the news, I think, you know,
00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:22.839
what does it look like? And I think it should
00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.299
look familiar to institutional investors. using
00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:28.500
commercially recognized investment structures.
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:33.599
Indigenous -led does not mean unconventional.
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.759
It means nations have meaningful authority, economic
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.279
participation, and long -term governance. Investors
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.119
will continue to have the role of providing capital
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.579
and receiving the governance rights that they
00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:51.119
would expect in infrastructure investments. Indigenous
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.420
leadership. I think helps reduce governance and
00:22:54.420 --> 00:22:56.660
relationship risk by allowing the nations most
00:22:56.660 --> 00:23:00.660
directly affected with the project success. Usually
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:03.019
important when it's a linear infrastructure project
00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:06.519
like transmission and it can traverse 20, 30
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.059
First Nations. When you have those 20 or 30 First
00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:13.539
Nations leading one project together, well, we
00:23:13.539 --> 00:23:15.660
believe that creates greater certainty than one
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:18.859
developer negotiating 20 to 30 separate relationships.
00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:22.980
which I think there are other examples that we
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.380
can look to to see why that's not necessarily
00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:28.980
ideal and creates additional risk. The Indigenous
00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:32.880
Power Coalition's role is to really help Indigenous
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.640
-led projects become investment ready through
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:40.319
strong governance and commercially bankable project
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:45.359
structures. Great overview. Yeah, Cole, when
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.720
you look across the country, especially in the
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.599
West with the Western project underway, what
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.859
barriers do you see still to Indigenous -led
00:23:56.859 --> 00:24:01.099
participation in these transmission projects
00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:04.759
and the intertie projects in particular? What
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.980
needs to change, do you think? Yeah, in each
00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:12.430
province is a... Electricity is a provincial
00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:17.190
jurisdiction, and so there's variations. Manitoba,
00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:21.750
for example, I don't think it's not legally allowable
00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:23.970
for a non -crown utility to own transmission.
00:24:24.789 --> 00:24:28.210
I mean, First Columbia was the same up until,
00:24:28.349 --> 00:24:30.329
I think, last year or the year before. They had
00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:32.970
to change legislation to enable First Nations
00:24:32.970 --> 00:24:34.970
ownership in the North Coast transmission line,
00:24:35.170 --> 00:24:38.950
which, you know, it's 2025. Why did it take so
00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:41.819
long? But we're certainly glad that it's there.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:44.640
And the BC, BC Hydro have been advocates for
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:48.460
Indigenous equity ownership. And they've certainly
00:24:48.460 --> 00:24:51.420
shown that in their recent calls for power and
00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:54.880
the North Coast Commission line. And so if we
00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:00.119
can elevate Indigenous equity ownership and bake
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.250
it into... legislation and policy changes required
00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:07.750
and provinces that you know could do that well
00:25:07.750 --> 00:25:09.750
bc has shown that it's possible you just change
00:25:09.750 --> 00:25:12.829
the legislation and you have you know loan guarantees
00:25:12.829 --> 00:25:14.549
whether it's provincial you have the kind of
00:25:14.549 --> 00:25:17.210
infrastructure bank with this you know uh very
00:25:17.210 --> 00:25:20.289
um low -cost loans to support and do secondary
00:25:20.289 --> 00:25:24.230
ownership uh and then that's going to help uh
00:25:24.230 --> 00:25:27.470
enable that in terms of policy legislation and
00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:30.150
access to capital you know financing these large
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.480
equity stakes is still a significant challenge.
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.099
Fortunately, we do have the Canada Infrastructure
00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:40.140
Bank and provincial loan guarantee programs in
00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:44.779
BC and Alberta and the federal government. Our
00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:49.000
financing First Nations -led project is still
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.960
a challenge because while there is financing
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.799
available at those later stages, there isn't
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.299
really much at the very early stage, which is
00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:58.480
sometimes the highest risk part of the project.
00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:00.849
At the development stage. at development stage
00:26:00.849 --> 00:26:04.329
and normally the developer would be fronting
00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:07.930
you know 100 to 200 million on the pre -development
00:26:07.930 --> 00:26:12.049
costs uh so for the nations that we're supporting
00:26:12.049 --> 00:26:14.990
that's that's where we're struggling to find
00:26:14.990 --> 00:26:16.910
the money and so that's where we're hoping that
00:26:16.910 --> 00:26:19.529
the federal government can come in to help at
00:26:19.529 --> 00:26:21.049
least give us some money then we can go and get
00:26:21.049 --> 00:26:24.789
the rest for this development stage because high
00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:28.190
risk but when you have all nations on side for
00:26:28.190 --> 00:26:31.160
a linear infrastructure project i think that's
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.299
pretty promising for a project and um so ibc
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:38.119
helps those nations build these infrastructure
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:40.980
these i mean these projects are investment ready
00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:43.099
and that's something that institutional investors
00:26:43.099 --> 00:26:47.259
can support yeah i mean when just talking about
00:26:47.259 --> 00:26:50.720
capital early stage capital development capital
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:57.000
um canada's not a huge market and so there's
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:00.849
lots of room for international players to come
00:27:00.849 --> 00:27:04.369
in and facilitate that. There are lots of tools
00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:07.869
now available for Indigenous people to get involved
00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:11.329
that weren't available even five, ten years ago,
00:27:11.470 --> 00:27:14.690
so that's encouraging. The First Nations Finance
00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:17.690
Authority, this is another one for members who
00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:23.309
qualify, another source of capital, but like
00:27:23.309 --> 00:27:27.779
any lender, yeah they want. assets or revenue
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:35.079
streams to secure those obligations. It's still
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.319
a challenge, but it's an opportunity too for
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:42.279
international investors. Yes. I think the one
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.319
thing though that we've just heard today and
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.319
Rob has been reinforced over the years now with
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:53.000
the summit is that Canada's got its act together
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.920
finally. Because there is clarity about the path
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.779
ahead. It's not, oh, we don't know what will
00:27:58.779 --> 00:28:01.740
happen. We don't know about, you know, are the
00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.500
Indigenous nations going to be behind this project
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:06.500
because they're rights holders now. So if they're
00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:08.900
not on board, it's not going to happen. And now
00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:11.640
that that has happened and given the Indigenous
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.299
nations aren't, oh, let's develop it to flip
00:28:14.299 --> 00:28:19.700
it, right? This is long -term sustainable. That
00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:23.359
actually reduces the risk. And I'm sure when
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.900
you mentioned some of those earlier in some of
00:28:25.900 --> 00:28:27.680
your earlier comments about the European firms,
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:31.180
Spanish firms, et cetera, coming over and working,
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:33.819
they were probably pleased in terms of the partnership
00:28:33.819 --> 00:28:37.000
to get things done and the commitment that they
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:40.019
felt. So now at the development stage, Canada's
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:44.579
always needed capital from the beginning of what
00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.380
was Canada even before then. It's always capital
00:28:47.380 --> 00:28:49.220
to develop the opportunity because we're blessed
00:28:49.220 --> 00:28:52.880
in natural resources. So I think actually the
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.859
business case becomes stronger now than it ever
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.799
has been, especially in the world we're living
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.819
in. Yeah, for sure. And that's something that's
00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:03.440
consistently come through with the nations that
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:05.200
we work with is, you know, they're looking at
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.420
the transmission line. These are 100 year assets.
00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:10.599
And so they're thinking, you know, seven generations
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.460
down the line that, OK, it might be a lot of
00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:18.720
work and a challenge and big for us, but we work
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.480
really hard for 10, 15 years. And it's just going
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:25.400
to continue to bring benefits to your communities.
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.599
And there are potentially additional benefits,
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:30.920
whether it's tying into that line and having
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.980
additional generation opportunities. So it's
00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:37.079
definitely that long -term vision has been key
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.140
to these types of assets. So are you confident
00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:45.640
about the future, Cole? If you look at five to
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.640
10 years and so many projects across the country,
00:29:48.700 --> 00:29:52.420
infrastructure. transmission pipelines, a lot
00:29:52.420 --> 00:29:55.380
to do with connecting the country in a way we've
00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:59.420
never in the north, north connecting the country
00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:03.680
like we've never been connected before. Yeah,
00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:08.700
I mean, I think yes and no. I think we, there's
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:11.880
still a lot of work to do. I think the most optimistic
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.980
thing that I see is that people recognize the
00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:19.640
need to build. They see the need for clean electricity
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:24.099
and the infrastructure required to build out
00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:26.720
our system whether it's for more emissions for
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.380
electricity like renewables or battery storage
00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:36.299
or more flexible base load or big transmission
00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:41.359
lines that connect systems i think that at least
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.299
at the policy level people see that and people
00:30:44.299 --> 00:30:47.480
are trying to figure out how we can do that uh
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:49.279
but there's still a lot of work to do in terms
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.380
of you know how do we actually get these projects
00:30:51.380 --> 00:30:53.380
built how do we support first nations coalitions
00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:55.759
or how do we continue to support first nations
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:59.119
equity ownership and major projects so that you
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.000
know we're also respecting indigenous rights
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.640
we're building these projects not only responsibly
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.839
but also in partnership with first nations i
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:09.099
think we're on the right track but i think there's
00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:11.420
still a lot more work to do and we hope to continue
00:31:11.420 --> 00:31:14.440
working with our partners on on addressing some
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:19.369
of that great uh is there something that we haven't
00:31:19.369 --> 00:31:21.569
asked you that you would like us to ask or a
00:31:21.569 --> 00:31:25.210
point that you would like to talk about yeah
00:31:25.210 --> 00:31:27.130
i think we covered i think we covered most of
00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:29.190
it i mean just in terms of european investors
00:31:29.190 --> 00:31:31.150
you know i think you know canada needs an unprecedented
00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:34.109
amount of investment in our electricity infrastructure
00:31:34.109 --> 00:31:37.109
i think long -term pension fund capitals will
00:31:37.109 --> 00:31:39.630
align with electricity infrastructure and you
00:31:39.630 --> 00:31:42.940
know investors can help shape a governance model
00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:45.119
to support business leadership. And we welcome
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.200
that type of discussion and are open and want
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:50.500
to encourage listeners that you can look at our
00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:52.819
website or find me on LinkedIn to advance these
00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:56.859
discussions because we want to work with you
00:31:56.859 --> 00:32:02.180
to have discussions. Great. Rob? Well, yeah,
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.660
thank you very much, Gautama, for joining us.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.740
And best of luck. I know we'll be hearing a lot
00:32:09.740 --> 00:32:14.450
more. the, uh, the coalition in, uh, months and
00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:19.009
years to come. Yeah. Well, thank you. Absolutely.
00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:24.369
Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. And
00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:26.390
thank you to our listeners for tuning into drum
00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:28.210
beats, where we bring you the capital markets
00:32:28.210 --> 00:32:31.029
intelligence that matters for indigenous investment
00:32:31.029 --> 00:32:34.769
in Canada. Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave
00:32:34.769 --> 00:32:37.690
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00:32:37.690 --> 00:32:40.109
for listening to drum beats until next time.