00:00:00
Speaker 1: Your rates, your services, your reality.
00:00:05
Speaker 2: Follow the local government elections on 702 Cape Talk and EWN.co.za. 702 Drive, it's 19 minutes past four over this week, and next we will be engaging with various political parties seeking to get your vote in the local government elections coming up in the first week of November. Focusing in particular on what their thoughts are about how we can fix metropolitan governments, three metros right here in Gauteng, and of course the metros in other parts of South Africa as well. To take this conversation forward, we're now joined on behalf of the Democratic Alliance by the DA's mayoral candidates in Johannesburg. Helen Ziller, good afternoon to you and thank you for your time.
00:00:51
Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Papa John. That's what I hear they call you at the radio station, so I had to have a laugh at that. I'm a go-go and now you're a papa.
00:00:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, entate, John, actually is what they call me, but close enough. Miss Zilla, one of the things that you highlight, and I thought we would start with the money, and you believe this could make a huge difference, is what you call ending catered deployment in local government. It's an issue the DA has dealt with before. How difficult, though, would that be to implement if you don't have an absolute majority? If you're in a coalition, I would have thought that delivering that kind of shake-up would be a lot more difficult. And the numbers are suggesting that coalitions are where you're heading in a number of places.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: Well, the most difficult thing is going to be to stabilize the finances of Joburg. Joburg is owed 81 billion rand. And it owes its creditors 25 billion rand. And currently, there isn't enough money to put fuel into vehicles, to buy any spare parts for substations. I can go on. I mean, there is no money. And even worse than cable deployment, although the two things are closely linked, is the rampant corruption in Joburg. So.
00:02:12
Speaker 2: Dealing with that would take some time, but just to return to where I started with the first question, if you don't have an absolute majority and invariably in a coalition, you would have to accommodate not just the policies, but also the people of whoever help you to govern. How much do you expect that would tie your hands to take some of the bolder steps that your manifesto outlines?
00:02:39
Speaker 1: Well, a coalition always ties your hands. A coalition is never good. If you want to implement a clear turnaround strategy, which we have, we've got a financial recovery plan. We've got a water recovery plan. We've got a range of different strategies that we would like to implement. And a coalition always makes that terribly difficult. And these large coalitions with nine parties attached in which parties of one or two people can bring down the government are it is so inherently unstable and so driven by factors that have actually nothing to do with good governance that it makes it extremely difficult.
00:03:21
Speaker 2: I want to start looking at some of the areas of particular interest. For example, in regard to water, and you've got some maintenance plans that I'll talk about in a moment, but you talk about cutting off services, and this would apply to electricity as well, I would think, for those who refuse to pay. How are you going to assess that? I mean, there are obviously some people who can and won't. There are some people who would but can't. And then I would think, particularly in tough economic times, there's a whole gray area where there's a struggling business or a family where someone was earning well but has now lost that job. I mean, do you have a sense of how you could nuance that? Because my sense is if you don't, you may struggle to actually get support for the measure.
00:04:09
Speaker 1: Well, in Cape Town, we have a free basic services package. And ironically, even though Cape Town is a lot smaller than Jo'burg, we have about double the number of people on the extended social package in Cape Town. So we would start finding people who genuinely deserve a proper free basic services package and make sure they apply and make sure they get on us. There'll be a big drive to achieve that. There are lots of people who can pay but won't or don't. And if there is a problem, people must come in. The trouble is the billing system is so chaotic. And often people who don't pay, don't pay because they just can't believe the bills they're getting. And if they come in and want to make arrangements, they're told to pay an acknowledgement of debt And they don't want to do that because, you know, sometimes their bills are one and a half million rand. I've seen that with my own eyes. And so that is why people say, you know, I can't go into this. This is not my bill and it's a major problem for me. So we have to fix the billing system. That is really a number one priority. And make sure that the system is adequately applied so that the indigent get support and those who can afford to pay do pay.
00:05:33
Speaker 2: I'm looking at, and this is an idea that's come from many, many different quarters. It's pushed strongly at a national level, ensuring that the money paid for water and electricity is spent on water and electricity. What I wanted to ask you about, though, is when you talk about this not being done, you say that this is because it's being diverted to pay salaries, plug budget holes, or simply stolen by corrupt officials. Most people would support this. your remedy, if indeed it was to avoid doing those things. But isn't this just merely a reflection of the cash-strapped nature of metro municipalities in general, that people are getting money from wherever they can? And yes, if you do ring-fence that money, you will have severe problems in other areas, like, for example, fixing roads where there is no direct user payment.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: John, there is one metro municipality that is not cash-strapped at all. In fact, over the next three years, it's spending 42 billion rand of its own money on infrastructure primarily for the poor. And that is the one city that hasn't stolen the money, and that is Cape Town, obviously. I mean, in Joburg, tenders are so inflated that it beggars belief. You may remember that we, for example, gave an entire water system to a place called Water Wax. When I went there, the people that had no water for 15 years, Joburg Water, came last September, said they were going to drill a borehole. They worked on the project for about two weeks and then abandoned the project, as always happens. And when I saw that, I said, no, we have to finish that project. And I got engineers in and I got various people in. And we did the whole thing with water purifiers, with sun panels, with manifolds, with pipes, with JoJo tanks, the whole lot for 2.6 million rand.
00:07:27
Speaker 2: But just to come back to the question, and I think your point in regard to Cape Town is made, but if you are going to ring fence water revenue and electricity revenue, do you accept that that may well leave you short of money to, for example, fix roads until you've managed to address all the other things? It's not as if all the money that comes, for example, out of water revenue is simply being wasted. It's being used for genuine needs, right?
00:07:57
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just quickly finish the point that I was making. Just for the taps and the manifolds, the city was going to pay 37 million rand.
00:08:04
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:08:04
Speaker 1: For 7% of that, we've delivered the whole project. Now, that is why people end up being cash strapped. And huge amounts of that money is diverted and spent on all sorts of things. So, obviously, we won't ring-fence the whole amount, but it'll be substantially ring-fenced to at least 70% of the money that comes in for water. Because that is a primary number one responsibility of local government. There are lots of things that are nice to have in local government that are not fundamental constitutional rights, as water is. And so we're going to have to have a hierarchy of needs, I'm afraid. We're going to say, what are the most important things? Water, electricity, roads, refuse removal, all that stuff.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Helen Ziller, DA Mayoral Candidates. Part two of what we will do as at least a ten-part engagement with political parties, looking at their comments on crucial issues affecting our metros, and we're focusing in on water, electricity, the management of finance, and roads and potholes. That's pretty much the menu that we'll put to each of them, as I said, tomorrow, the United Democratic Movement, the UDM. 28 minutes past four.
Speaker 1: Your rates, your services, your reality.
00:00:05
Speaker 2: Follow the local government elections on 702 Cape Talk and EWN.co.za. 702 Drive, it's 19 minutes past four over this week, and next we will be engaging with various political parties seeking to get your vote in the local government elections coming up in the first week of November. Focusing in particular on what their thoughts are about how we can fix metropolitan governments, three metros right here in Gauteng, and of course the metros in other parts of South Africa as well. To take this conversation forward, we're now joined on behalf of the Democratic Alliance by the DA's mayoral candidates in Johannesburg. Helen Ziller, good afternoon to you and thank you for your time.
00:00:51
Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Papa John. That's what I hear they call you at the radio station, so I had to have a laugh at that. I'm a go-go and now you're a papa.
00:00:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, entate, John, actually is what they call me, but close enough. Miss Zilla, one of the things that you highlight, and I thought we would start with the money, and you believe this could make a huge difference, is what you call ending catered deployment in local government. It's an issue the DA has dealt with before. How difficult, though, would that be to implement if you don't have an absolute majority? If you're in a coalition, I would have thought that delivering that kind of shake-up would be a lot more difficult. And the numbers are suggesting that coalitions are where you're heading in a number of places.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: Well, the most difficult thing is going to be to stabilize the finances of Joburg. Joburg is owed 81 billion rand. And it owes its creditors 25 billion rand. And currently, there isn't enough money to put fuel into vehicles, to buy any spare parts for substations. I can go on. I mean, there is no money. And even worse than cable deployment, although the two things are closely linked, is the rampant corruption in Joburg. So.
00:02:12
Speaker 2: Dealing with that would take some time, but just to return to where I started with the first question, if you don't have an absolute majority and invariably in a coalition, you would have to accommodate not just the policies, but also the people of whoever help you to govern. How much do you expect that would tie your hands to take some of the bolder steps that your manifesto outlines?
00:02:39
Speaker 1: Well, a coalition always ties your hands. A coalition is never good. If you want to implement a clear turnaround strategy, which we have, we've got a financial recovery plan. We've got a water recovery plan. We've got a range of different strategies that we would like to implement. And a coalition always makes that terribly difficult. And these large coalitions with nine parties attached in which parties of one or two people can bring down the government are it is so inherently unstable and so driven by factors that have actually nothing to do with good governance that it makes it extremely difficult.
00:03:21
Speaker 2: I want to start looking at some of the areas of particular interest. For example, in regard to water, and you've got some maintenance plans that I'll talk about in a moment, but you talk about cutting off services, and this would apply to electricity as well, I would think, for those who refuse to pay. How are you going to assess that? I mean, there are obviously some people who can and won't. There are some people who would but can't. And then I would think, particularly in tough economic times, there's a whole gray area where there's a struggling business or a family where someone was earning well but has now lost that job. I mean, do you have a sense of how you could nuance that? Because my sense is if you don't, you may struggle to actually get support for the measure.
00:04:09
Speaker 1: Well, in Cape Town, we have a free basic services package. And ironically, even though Cape Town is a lot smaller than Jo'burg, we have about double the number of people on the extended social package in Cape Town. So we would start finding people who genuinely deserve a proper free basic services package and make sure they apply and make sure they get on us. There'll be a big drive to achieve that. There are lots of people who can pay but won't or don't. And if there is a problem, people must come in. The trouble is the billing system is so chaotic. And often people who don't pay, don't pay because they just can't believe the bills they're getting. And if they come in and want to make arrangements, they're told to pay an acknowledgement of debt And they don't want to do that because, you know, sometimes their bills are one and a half million rand. I've seen that with my own eyes. And so that is why people say, you know, I can't go into this. This is not my bill and it's a major problem for me. So we have to fix the billing system. That is really a number one priority. And make sure that the system is adequately applied so that the indigent get support and those who can afford to pay do pay.
00:05:33
Speaker 2: I'm looking at, and this is an idea that's come from many, many different quarters. It's pushed strongly at a national level, ensuring that the money paid for water and electricity is spent on water and electricity. What I wanted to ask you about, though, is when you talk about this not being done, you say that this is because it's being diverted to pay salaries, plug budget holes, or simply stolen by corrupt officials. Most people would support this. your remedy, if indeed it was to avoid doing those things. But isn't this just merely a reflection of the cash-strapped nature of metro municipalities in general, that people are getting money from wherever they can? And yes, if you do ring-fence that money, you will have severe problems in other areas, like, for example, fixing roads where there is no direct user payment.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: John, there is one metro municipality that is not cash-strapped at all. In fact, over the next three years, it's spending 42 billion rand of its own money on infrastructure primarily for the poor. And that is the one city that hasn't stolen the money, and that is Cape Town, obviously. I mean, in Joburg, tenders are so inflated that it beggars belief. You may remember that we, for example, gave an entire water system to a place called Water Wax. When I went there, the people that had no water for 15 years, Joburg Water, came last September, said they were going to drill a borehole. They worked on the project for about two weeks and then abandoned the project, as always happens. And when I saw that, I said, no, we have to finish that project. And I got engineers in and I got various people in. And we did the whole thing with water purifiers, with sun panels, with manifolds, with pipes, with JoJo tanks, the whole lot for 2.6 million rand.
00:07:27
Speaker 2: But just to come back to the question, and I think your point in regard to Cape Town is made, but if you are going to ring fence water revenue and electricity revenue, do you accept that that may well leave you short of money to, for example, fix roads until you've managed to address all the other things? It's not as if all the money that comes, for example, out of water revenue is simply being wasted. It's being used for genuine needs, right?
00:07:57
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just quickly finish the point that I was making. Just for the taps and the manifolds, the city was going to pay 37 million rand.
00:08:04
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:08:04
Speaker 1: For 7% of that, we've delivered the whole project. Now, that is why people end up being cash strapped. And huge amounts of that money is diverted and spent on all sorts of things. So, obviously, we won't ring-fence the whole amount, but it'll be substantially ring-fenced to at least 70% of the money that comes in for water. Because that is a primary number one responsibility of local government. There are lots of things that are nice to have in local government that are not fundamental constitutional rights, as water is. And so we're going to have to have a hierarchy of needs, I'm afraid. We're going to say, what are the most important things? Water, electricity, roads, refuse removal, all that stuff.
00:08:52
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Helen Ziller, DA Mayoral Candidates. Part two of what we will do as at least a ten-part engagement with political parties, looking at their comments on crucial issues affecting our metros, and we're focusing in on water, electricity, the management of finance, and roads and potholes. That's pretty much the menu that we'll put to each of them, as I said, tomorrow, the United Democratic Movement, the UDM. 28 minutes past four.
