WEBVTT
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All right.
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Welcome to Drinks with Shrinks.
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Welcome.
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Hi.
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We are your hosts, Jessica and Peter.
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Jessica, how are you?
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Hi.
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Good to see you.
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Nice to see you.
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How are you doing?
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I'm I'm okay.
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I'm okay.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Um, Jessica and I have been working together for we're going on eight years.
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Is it really already?
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Oh my goodness.
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I think so.
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Seven years.
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Seven years.
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We've been working together since seven years.
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Yeah.
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You you came on um in 2019, right before the pandemic.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you made me laugh during the interview because you said something about fried chicken or something.
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And then I just laughed and I was like, you're hired.
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And um I can't remember what the context was.
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I wish I remembered.
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Oh, it was like crispy.
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It's like crispy like chicken.
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I can't remember the crispy.
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Yes, I know.
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And I can't remember the context.
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I just remember laughing genuinely.
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For I was like, and I told my wife, I was like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna hire her.
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She made me laugh.
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So I was like, okay, go for it.
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I um I think you were describing maybe you were describing private practice.
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It's like it fries me like crispy chicken or something like that.
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And anyway, it was like a very good metaphor.
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But um, yeah.
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Well, today we're gonna be talking about something kind of serious.
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So we'll be talking about uh basically, yeah, we're gonna be addressing separation.
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And uh separation is a very real word, it doesn't always mean divorce.
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I know a lot of people think it means divorce.
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Uh, we should probably talk about that.
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And um yeah, I'm really excited about today because I think whenever people think about separation, they think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get a divorce, my life is over.
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And that's often not the case.
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In fact, John Gottman, who uh Jessica and I quote quite a bit, um, he's he talks quite a bit about uh, you know, how separation can actually save a marriage.
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And um, why don't we talk about that?
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What would you say is the difference?
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Is let's talk about like the differences between separation and divorce.
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How do you explain those differences?
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Like when a client's coming in and they're saying, okay, we're thinking of divorce, I usually slow them down.
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I usually say, Well, let's hold up, hold up.
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Why don't we take a month break?
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And um, while we do this month break, why don't we really process whether or not you really want to do that?
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Uh in fact, I don't even want to you to even mention that word again.
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I usually stop my clients short.
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Uh, it's like, can we let's let's hold back a little bit?
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And I usually talk to them about what separation means and what it looks like.
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Now, of course, there's a lot of different dynamics of that.
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If the person is separating because they want to um they're already in an affair, that's gonna be a lot trickier.
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Uh, I usually tell people if they can not connect with that affair partner for the next month, just to think about it.
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But how do you go about it?
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Let's talk, you know, yeah.
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No, and I appreciate that distinction.
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And I think part of this is where I lean in a little bit more to discernment counseling, like those three paths that they talk about, where you know, there's a decision to stay together.
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There's a decision when we talk about divorce, you know, of course, there are legal ramifications with that as well, but um, it's really like we are making a decision that we are not coming back together, right?
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In a romantic marital way.
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And then separation is I view it kind of my word is space where we're making a conscious and consensual, hopefully consensual decision to step back.
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It's not that divorce is off the table, but we're making um an intentional decision to give you name the window of time, where we are all into this relationship, where we are really focusing on what we can do to make a relationship work.
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So that's kind of one version of it.
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Another version I might use with people is separation, having clear boundaries around what that time apart looks like.
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I don't know if that makes how how that how that lands with you, but just it's not that the relationship is over over, but we are taking time apart to reflect on ourselves while being honoring the relationship still.
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Um if it is a monogamous relationship, assuming that.
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Um how's that does that land with your definition or how would you define it?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, separation is like really just kind of taking your time mess necessary um to see whether or not this marriage is really going to work.
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And um, or or if separation, yeah, especially I often say separation, it's it's I I put a lot of um you know, a lot of it uh on the emphasis, especially if they have like kids.
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Let's say, for example, they've got two or three kids and whatnot.
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I'm like, okay, could we I really want to slow down here?
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Um, you know, I I get it if it's if it's you know, it's one thing if um they're maybe like they're newly, even if they're newlyweds, I still take it a lot of consideration.
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But I mean, um, a lot of people don't necessarily know what it even looks like.
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They're living together and especially if they've been together for a very, very long time.
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Uh, they don't necessarily see any problems with, you know, um uh separating because hey, I could live without this person.
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And then, you know, the the shit hits the fan.
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Uh, and then they don't know, like their lives are not the same without that person.
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So it's just kind of like, you know, so I see separation.
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I put it as like a almost like a trial period.
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You have to, you have to put reality, I want you to live as if this is like as if you're you're divorced.
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Be um, you know, uh, and then after about a month, how how how did that go?
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Because I want that if they don't, if they don't do that, then they're going to be they're gonna be in for a ride.
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Because I mean, divorce is um final, obviously.
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And you want to be able to know whether or not like, yeah, you you're uh you can live with your with uh without that person in your life.
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I I mean, I don't know if I'm adding or any anything more to that, but I mean that's kind of the way I define it.
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Do you feel like in that in that trial window?
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Because I I feel like therapists have different positions on this.
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Sometimes I might recommend to a couple, depending on their situation, you know, maybe a period where we before a separation decision is made, and they're maybe considering something like that.
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A trial period also of like going, let's go all in and see if that moves the needle, and and a trial period of time apart.
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So there's like a comparison.
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What are your thoughts on that process?
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You mean like a trial period, oh, together and then apart?
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Yeah, kind of like I don't know.
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I usually think of separation like I want you all to really feel the pain of it, you know.
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I I want you all to like limit your texting.
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Um, I want you to act as if you're divorced, but you're not, you know.
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So I want you to make sure that you're not seeing anybody, you're not dating anybody, not right now, but only come together briefly through texts and then um meet together every week.
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Yeah, just every week for couples therapy and try not to, you know, talk that much.
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And they might say, Well, well, what if I do really want to talk?
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It's like, I know, but you're thinking of this.
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And I want you to really kind of sit with it because you need to sit with whether or not you want to um stay with your values here because something's being like, and plus you want to know even what your values are.
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I think most people, when they're thinking of divorce, they're so disconnected with their values.
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I mean, act acceptance, commitment therapy talks a lot about that's usually why there's so much fusion and also why there's so much avoidance and we get stuck um with our own self-concept, which means comparison and we're we're not in, we're we feel like we're not doing things in line with our own, or excuse me, we get very goal driven.
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And so I want you to just over the next month really know what those values are.
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And if you could start having a relationship that's based on workability, um, not you know, because a lot of relationships, I think they get so rigid, and you're wanting to become flexible once again.
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But to find that, you have to, you want to really kind of feel the pain a little bit.
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That's me.
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Um, you know, because I don't want them to keep doing it and playing.
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I I sometimes see this with couples, they'll play flirt, they'll like flirt with separation.
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And like he's in the basement, and then she's in the attic, like she's in, you know, her room, and they're seeing each other almost all the time.
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And then I'm like, wait, that's not a separation.
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Um, and like that's they're calling it that, but it's not.
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And then they're then they use divorce as like a threat.
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And then that does a lot of damage.
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And it's like, okay, but if we're gonna really talk about this, then let's talk about this.
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If you're not gonna talk about this, let's let's get our hands dirty and not talk about it.
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And let's work on the four, you know, the four horsemen and get let's get let's get dirty.
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Sometimes people use these words to kind of stay disconnected and connected at the same time, and they'll do that for like 10 years, which and yeah, you got to make a decision.
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Make a decision, make a decision.
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Yeah.
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But no, I don't know.
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Yeah, go ahead.
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No, I was just gonna say really value that because I was when we were talking about, especially like in that example, like potentially 10 years, right?
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Think about also the harm that comes when the relationship is always feeling like it's on the chopping block, you know, just the instability that can create and also the value of those terms when we're just throwing them out there, it desensitizes on some level, right?
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Um, and so no, I I I just really value that the clarity that you're talking about, which is if if we're truly talking about separation and we are doing a trial there, um, and that's the decision that's been reached, then we need to look at how are we practicing that and shifting those routines, how we're sharing in things, as if that were actually happening, right?
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But what it does is I think to your point, when we're apart from maybe some of the dynamics that feel insurmountable at the time, kind of like when you're flooded, if you will, it's one of those things that how do I feel when I'm apart from the relationship?
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What do I notice about myself and who I am apart from the relationship?
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Maybe also there's some perspective there, like when you were talking about values and those things that we're longing for.
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Maybe when we step away, maybe we also find I do miss this person.
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This is potentially repairable when you're not in it, right?
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Um, the perspective and clarity that can give.
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Yeah.
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When when do you start seeing separated?
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Like, what are some red flags?
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And when do you start maybe encourage?
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I don't ever try to encourage it.
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It's it's as much well.
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I encourage it in the sense like if they're saying we will get divorced, then I encourage it because I see it as a stepping stone.
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But what are some what are some flags maybe that you see that where you might recommend it?
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I'm just curious, and then I can I can answer that as well.
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Um I think that some of the flags are, you know, Gottman, for example, talks a lot about the four horsemen criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, but also something called negative sentiment override, right?
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Where our we're scanning more for negative um traits and/or negative sentiments about our partner or the relationship, override any positive ones to the point where we're potentially rewriting our history.
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And so if I think, you know, the four horsemen are rampant running around in that relationship, if in addition to we're really unable to recollect anything positive or any assign any positive attributes to our partner or marriage, I think sometimes like I think of it like a dirty window, right?
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When we're stepping away, does that space also allow for like that us to wipe away the dirt so we can get a clearer picture of our partner?
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Right.
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Um, so I think sometimes those are, especially contempt.
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I think that's one where those warning signs that negative sentiment is particularly high, but also contempt, the four horsemen are really rampant.
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It doesn't mean just because those things are there, the relationship is doomed and we need to separate.
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I think there's a certain degree of that that takes place, and when also commitment, when commitment is not something that we feel, if if if we're in a monogamous marriage and we are feeling that we no longer cherish this relationship, are willing to continue to invest in it, are having thoughts about others, right?
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Where we may act on those thoughts, and there really isn't an ability to say, no, I am willing, like a willingness to work on the relationship.
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Those are all kind of warning factors to me that I look for.
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You can be questioning things, but is there a willingness to want to work toward repair resolution?
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What do you think?
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Yeah, I like that.
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I like that a lot.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, definitely a lot of contempt.
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Um you know, maybe we should explain.
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A lot of people think they know what contempt is.
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A lot of people say, well, my husband scowls at me sometimes, or my wife always criticizes me.
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And that's not contempt.
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I mean, I I I contempt is um disgust.
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It's a very powerful emotion.
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It's looking not just looking, scowling, but it's like looking, yeah, yeah.
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It's like looking down on you as if you're a smaller person.
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And that's a oh man, that's that's you know, I mean, Gaudman proved that like through a lot of his studies that when you when disgust takes over, your immune system starts to compromise, which actually makes sense.
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You know, I mean, you your immune system does compromise actually when you're around bad food or whatnot.
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Like, you know, it's like your fear because your immune system is always on high alert.
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And if that goes, if that if that if it feels that way for over, you know, for years, that does a lot of damage to the heart because you're you're producing a lot of uh it's not just it's more than just anger, it's transcending anger to the point where um I see you as a germ.
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Uh and the only the only approach to uh when contempt gets so bad in the relationship, the cure for that is what building a culture of appreciation.
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So what separation is hopefully doing is that you start to appreciate that partner again.
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And that's why I don't like the flirting, like, oh, we're gonna go back and forth and back and forth, and you know, he lives upstairs, I live downstairs.
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Okay, look, y'all have to make an opinion, you know, if you want to get get dirty, get dirty.
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But we can't just like throw these words around.
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Um, how can you appreciate your partner while living with them?
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And if you could do that, let's let's get messy and I want you all to stop using those words.
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But if you're going to use that word and you're onto that point, can you build that culture of appreciation once again for your partner?
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And I've seen this with with couples, maybe there's been an affair, um, and they're so determined, I really need to make sure that I I divorce my my my husband or my wife, and you know, and then they separate for about a month, maybe even two months, and they don't talk a lot.
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And then they start to realize, okay, my my partner's actually done a lot of really good work.
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I really miss them.
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Um wow, I've I've really gotten to the point where I I have really uh, you know, um, I need to do some work myself.
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I can't just blame them that they're the source of all my problems.
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I'm not perfect either.
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And they're willing to work and they want to be with me.
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And I don't know if I could live without this person and I start appreciating this person once again, and maybe I start dating them again.
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That's a good, that's like that's an example of like a beautiful story of how separation can bring back life.
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Yeah, but that I so I always kind of present, I mean, I don't know if this is answering a question or not, but I always present it not as a hopeless situation, but as a as a think of it as a as a risky situation that could possibly produce a resurrection or a death.
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Um I love how you worded that.
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Yeah.
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Which sounds very biblical, but that's okay, like Eastern.
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Well, that story has been around for thousands of years, too.
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So stand to the test of time.
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But yeah, but to that point though, it is because you know, sometimes too, it's it's recognizing there also might have been things in the dynamic between us that weren't serving us, right?
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And so when you talk about that idea of resurrection, it is.
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It's also the opportunity to recognize maybe in some ways, if we say like marriage 1.0 wasn't it is maybe the death of that, but also the building and the opportunity to build marriage 2.0, holding on to those things that we truly cherish and value while also learning new ways because we're not stuck in a vacuum, we evolve over time, right?
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How do we learn to grow again together and evolve and make shifts in our marriage where we both feel honored?
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And so I think something really beautiful can happen, but it's also with that emotional intensity coming down and returning to some of those fundamental pillars of our friendship, which is that fondness and admiration, that ability to appreciate the other person and scan for the things that you value about them.
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There's a reason why you chose them, right?
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And reconnecting to those things.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:02.160
And sometimes it's in that time apart that you miss it, that thing that they would just do.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.000
And I wish I could talk to them about this.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.319
And sometimes that can get reignited.
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:11.759
You can feel that.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:24.559
And and I think also to your point about um, you know, being able where the blame isn't solely on my partner, but being able to describe your own feelings and your own needs.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:35.200
And sometimes when you're not in the situation and you have that room, maybe it's an opportunity to reconnect to those things so you can say them in a more productive way.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:40.640
Um, in a way that would give your partner the opportunity to work with you.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.160
You know.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.759
Um, sorry, I went on a tangent.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.920
No, no, I'm well, well, we both do.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.799
Um that's why we're that's why we're working together.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:55.519
No, I don't like if I got upset about that, I would be a hypocrite.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.599
Uh no, no, I don't think it was a tangent.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.160
That was great.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.200
That was that was um when would you recommend?
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.119
Yeah, maybe it leads to this next question.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.119
What so when what when have you seen?
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:15.680
And I guess I should I should back up because we as marriage therapists, we should probably explain to our audience, like we don't really recommend stuff as much as we try to recommend what's in what's in according to your values.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.279
Like I often reflect back.
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:28.000
I was just meeting with a client earlier this morning, and I noticed that I was giving advice, and then I stopped myself and I said, actually, just to let you know, I'm not giving advice, I'm telling you what you just told me.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:35.039
And I and she smiled and she appreciated that because I'm like, I'm not, I'm just telling you what you said to said to me 15 minutes ago.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.839
And you know, so that's what I'm giving you back.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:49.599
So um uh when when do you start seeing your clients veer into oh gosh, they separate and then they do realize, yeah, I need a divorce.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.039
Like what what are maybe we could talk about some of those observations.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.200
I mean, I don't mind going first on that too.
00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:19.200
I mean um I mean I I I guess yeah, I I uh I I I often see it when they they're at peace and they've they have not been with that person for over a month or two months, and they there's no there's no there's you don't sense that disgust anymore, which is really good.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.799
Um and they've come back and they've really, really thought about it.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.880
If they're religious, prayed about it.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:27.359
Yeah.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:35.680
Um they've re they've really reconnected with their values and they've realized that their own values have been so compromised.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.160
Um they don't want to live like this anymore.
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:50.079
They have no there's not a sense of there's not a sense of like this anger or hatred toward the partner anymore, which I really like.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:56.720
It's just more like I wish them the best, but yeah, I think I need to move on.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.880
Like I should say that's that's probably where I see it as the in the healthiest place.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.200
Obviously, I don't ever encourage divorce.
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.759
I I'm sad when my clients divorce.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.799
I'm I I this is where I kind of disagree with some marriage therapist.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:21.680
I was just talking to somebody the other day, and he was like, Well, my my my goal for this couple is to eventually get to the point where they just find themselves.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.039
And I'm like, and he I was like, I'm really pro them.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.079
And he kind of pushed back.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.759
He's like, Well, I'm not really pro the couple, I just want them to find their voice.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:31.920
And I I had to push back on that.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.960
And I'm like, Well, no, I'm I'm really pro them.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.119
I really hope they make it here.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:52.640
So, I mean, I I'm always sad when a couple divorces, but if that person gets to that point where they are there and they just can't move forward, then I I I I I feel like I could really process in a very healthy way with them.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.680
Um, but if they're at a place where they're just so still living with a lot of contempt.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.160
I I kind of dig a little deeper.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.319
I often say, well, okay, I I still don't know if divorce is right or not.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.559
Can we can we explore that a little bit?
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:14.160
I mean, you know, could we is it is yeah, that's kind of my approach.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:32.400
I'm again I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold them back if they still feel like they need to go through it, but I I try to if there's still this energy that's still very uh rigid against the other person, um, I often kind of well, could we could we maybe take a little bit more time?
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.720
Anyway, that's that's kind of how I process.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:38.160
How you how you do it.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.799
No, I I I I love that point.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:59.839
And I think so going back a little bit to go forward, but I think you know, some again of those signs are when there's also that loss of empathy, that lot like that more um disengagement, right?
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.160
Whether it be emotional or otherwise.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:21.599
And I think times when I see a separation might lead for them to make a decision to divorce, is times when that they might be coming back from that and they might say, you know what?
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:35.279
In this time apart, I feel more uh a deeper sense of engagement, not only with myself, but I feel more of my needs and who I am as an individual.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:47.599
I feel so much more of myself is sometimes like something I hear, in which case, you know, and sometimes in those situations, um I'm seeing them finally make a decision to divorce.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.920
The other thing too is if that empathy can't be restored.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:24:01.359
So sometimes um if in that time there's still, again, those negative sentiments overriding.
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:15.519
I I love the the outcome where they can both amicably separate, but there are times when it's also that loss of I feel like empathy, like of I don't, I don't want to do this.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.720
Like there's there's a hard time taking that accountability, and also when there's irreconcilable differences, right?
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:42.400
Where they just feel fun coming back to those values, they feel the what they need for their values, their beliefs, um, their needs to be honored is just unequivocally um incompatible with what their partner's position might be.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:56.880
And that, and in those cases, it's sometimes I can still have a love for you as someone I shared a life with, someone that um I do have a deep sense of friendship with.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:04.559
I though cannot move forward in an authentic way for myself if these needs aren't met.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:20.400
Um, so that's also sometimes when I feel like I see the decision of a couple when like they've tried certain roads and even they might have had that separation, trial separation, but that those needs they just can't align.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:33.839
And so they make a decision to say, look, like again, meaning no ill will here, and they try to do it as cordially as possible, but they do make a decision to go their separate ways.
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:34.799
Yeah.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.400
I do wonder, not to, you know, and I could I could throw this throw throw a bone here.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.279
I mean, a little bit.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:50.240
I mean, I I I wonder if the biggest critique of divorce culture is because you had said, like, you know, not finding my own values.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.960
There's a lot of sub a lot of people might object to that a little bit, saying, well, maybe that's the problem.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:56.799
There's too much subjectivity.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:04.799
Um, you know, I just read something that I think it's like practicing Catholics and Muslims and Jews.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039
I think the divorce rate is like 14%.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:08.160
Is it?
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:17.759
And yeah, whereas the divorce rate for I think atheists 38 and then Protestants, and we're always number one, aren't we?
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.319
I'm kidding.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.079
Like I think it's like 47.
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:25.200
Yeah, Protestants, like 47, and then non-committal Protestants is like 49.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:46.720
Um, Protestantism and atheism kind of has an element of like, you know, I mean, you think of like, well, it's my Bible and my verse, whereas like when you think of Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, especially Catholic, it's more like, no, it's, I mean, I know Catholics see marriage as a as a sacrament, which is really, really powerful.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:48.720
It's like this is yeah.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.240
How do you how do you adopt?
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:55.119
I guess my question is, because I try to adopt the language of my clients a little bit too.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:55.680
Oh, yeah.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:04.319
Um, you know, because yeah, I think I I kind of toy, I I'm um, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a Christian, I don't mind admitting that.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:15.279
And like I I have clients who are they'll often bring faith in the element of that, and they'll often how do you play, how do you play with that?
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.119
I mean, I I even though I am, I don't I have a lot of I have a lot of clients who aren't, and I I never push that.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:27.200
I I I always go that's what I love about ACT, because Act, I think values is something higher than us.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:27.680
Yeah.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:34.880
Um, it's that archetype that I feel like that Young was talking about without feeling like you're pushing your own beliefs at the same time.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:44.319
Values, I think, is something that's really beautifully said and written about because it's more than just finding my peace.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.000
It's it's maybe my value is justice.
00:27:48.160 --> 00:28:02.960
My maybe like if like if it like an affair, this is an example, like if his if her value is forgiveness, grace, and kindness, and that's that's like the root of who she is.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:10.799
She might say, like, no, I can't, I can't, I can't divorce.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:26.240
Whereas this person, if it's like if there is an affair and and their value, his her value is um justice, um, truth, and um loyalty or loyalty, right?
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.759
They might get to the point and they're like, no, no.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:42.240
Like, so it's that's that's really that's an interesting, and that I think that's what I love about ACT, because both are both kind of transcend us, and both are actually in religious text, really, which is kind of beautiful.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.519
Loyalty, justice, and forgiveness and love.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.079
So it's like that's the dialectic of even religious text.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.839
So I get I know that's a lot there, but like how do you how do you play with that?
00:28:51.920 --> 00:29:00.559
Like without getting too subjective, but also, you know, yeah, you made this promise, you made this oath, and marriage is more than just dating.
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:02.559
It's like at least that's the view I have.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:04.480
How do you how do you toy with all that?
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.839
Because these are more like philosophical questions, I suppose.
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:18.880
And I think so, definitely using the client's words and really trying to paraphrase back and repeat back what I'm hearing them say to make sure I'm on the same page.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:36.960
But I think also looking at, um, and there are different ways I might do that, but I think also looking at in any given situation, trying to ask them really open-ended questions that dig deeper into what are those underlying tenets there?
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:48.480
Is there some type of rule by which I make my decisions or that guides my actions that feels like it's underlying whatever that particular issue is?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.079
Like, what is it that makes that so important?
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.440
What is it, if especially too?
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:01.359
I I am a big proponent of emotions or conduits of needs.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:10.640
And so, in a situation that might be more emotionally intense, it our emotions are trying to tell us or bring our attention to something that is important.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.480
And sometimes that can be even a segue into a deeper value conversation.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:16.880
You know, what are your underlying dreams there?
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.880
You know, like there's a need here.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:20.079
Where does that need come from?
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.000
Like, tell me the story about that.
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:39.839
And so I think just digging in and trying to get them to kind of look at what are those guiding symbols, beliefs, tenets that are really important and how are they playing out or a part of this particular situation or dynamic?
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.160
And what does that say or mean for me?
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.599
Because it's not up to me to decide is your value being met here or not.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:47.839
Only you know the answer to that, right?
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:52.480
But I want to help you get connected to whatever that thing is for you.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:53.519
Nice, yeah.
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:54.319
That's that's good.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.039
I like that.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:02.240
Yeah, that's that's really and I think that's what I love about ACT so much because it does push the transcendent without being pushy.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.440
And it is it is there's an element of subjectivity to it, and there's not.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:08.880
It's a little bit of dbt.
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:27.279
It's like it is kind of your values are gonna be different, but like I said, this person over here, if it's honor, justice, and truth, again, those are those are archetypes that have been around for thousands of years, whereas this person's maybe this is and that maybe after, but they want to do what's workable in line with it.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:37.440
And usually people, I think uh another thing I love about ACT too is like there there is so much rigidity in ourselves and maybe in our marriage because we're not in line with our values anymore.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.839
We're doing everything that they want to do.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:55.119
And it's like, no, this may and maybe that's where the separation could be actually really healthy, because if you could know what that is and then stop nitpicking because you're always you're you're you're too concerned about them, them and not yourself in a good way, in a healthy way.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:00.960
And then you're either people pleasing or getting too rigid about yourself, you can get centered again.
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:05.759
And then which what's beautiful about that is like hopefully when you come back, you could be a lot more flexible.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.960
I mean, Gottman talks a lot about knowing your core need first and foremost and compromise.
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:13.440
And then everything else is just like, whatever.
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:14.960
You know, I don't care.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:21.680
And I usually know when a client, like a couple is like when they're nitpicky, you know, it's like you know, and they're like, No, you didn't.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:23.440
I'm like, Well, what's your core need?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:24.480
And they're like, What do you mean?
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:25.279
They don't know.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:27.680
It's such a I get that same response.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:28.400
All the time.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.880
So I remember, I remember, um, yeah, that's like that's very psychological, like about that.
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:45.759
Like, there's there's something that's I know I remember I was um when I used to do like circuit preaching at a church, and there was this one church and they had divided, and guess what they divided over?
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:46.640
They split.
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:54.319
It was and it was like a 600-member church, which up here is like huge, down there it's whatever, but divided because of the paint, the paint in the basement.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:54.960
Really?
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:56.240
That was it.
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:58.640
There they but they had no core vision.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:32:59.839
It was like love everybody.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:01.519
Well, that's not a core vision.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:10.960
And it was like, and you when you talk to both groups of people, which I did, like this group really did think white was better, and they would even bring in like verses.
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:12.400
I'm like, what are you talking about?
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:22.319
And then this person in this group over here who thought beige was better, they would even like, but they didn't, they didn't, they didn't know what their core need was, and so they would nitpick.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.680
It's like these teeny little dick, you know, fucking everything on the surface.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:26.240
100%.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.440
It's like, well, he doesn't do the dishes at six o'clock like I asked him to.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.960
Okay, well, what's your core need?
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:32.319
What do you mean?
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.480
Like, what is it?
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:36.400
Yeah, I want you to be connected with that.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.920
So it's like, slow down.
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.559
Hopefully, when you come back, that's that's the flexibility that you're often looking for.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.680
Um and that's that's again, yeah.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:53.039
I'm it's I'm glad we're talking about this because I I like that we're kind of giving a positive, not a positive spin, but it's like it's not a death sentence.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:03.039
It could be a wonderful opportunity to you for you to really find what's most important so you can make this marriage work.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:08.159
Um, or what like what you said, find what's important most important so that you you can move on.
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.519
Um it's kind of a win-win in that way.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.480
Um wow, no, I like that.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.000
Yeah, because I think okay, yeah.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:43.760
Also for in a situation where, and I know it might require a little bit more delicacy and and mindfulness and how it's being presented, but even when there's a situation where kids are involved and there's this trial, what it also does is helps hopefully to create an environment that's less potentially hostile, right, or tense, and that has a positive impact on kids and their development as well.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:00.800
And so I think there's a positive there because sometimes I hear, but the kids, but the kids, and my answer to that is research shows you know, staying together for the kids, so to speak, right?
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:09.119
In a situation where there is hostility or really intense interactions, and kids are exposed to that on a regular basis.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.840
That is not good for that, does not always impact them well.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:25.599
So, in cases where we're not getting divorced, but we're trying to create some space, it's also diffusing that tension and creating stability and maybe even some calm in the household.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:29.360
So I think there's an opportunity there as a family too.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.159
Um, and to still process those things.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:37.679
Like I said, there's a lot there that I'm now kind of chipping away at, but a lot more discussion there.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:49.599
But I think also not to associate making a decision to separate and take may have a trial separation be seen as a negative for a family unit either.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.840
It can actually maybe have some positive impacts there too.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:07.440
Yeah, I try to be balanced with that because there's also tons of research that says kids are man, there's a lot of research that also says that kids they're gonna be affected by that with a divorce for the rest of their lives.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:18.239
Um, you know, yeah, there's there's a lot, like especially boys not seeing their dads for, you know, but once a month, and or girls do, you know, and then yeah, yeah.
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:43.679
And so the research is, yeah, it's it's interesting because the I think Yeah, when I I remember I remember doing a doing a course once, and they talked a lot about the research out there on on like the effects of what divorce does to and we often this marriage surface, we I find myself like you know, not like forgetting to bring that up, but that's just as important for my clients to hear just as much.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.119
Like, you know, just that and that's why you need a lot of discernment counseling.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:53.119
I really, really want you guys to make sure that you're doing like you're really, really thinking about this because your kids won't be the same.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:57.199
That's where I disagree with like a lot of marriage counselors sometimes are like, oh no, they'll be.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:59.360
I'm like, no, no, they'll be affected.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:00.719
It has an impact.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:01.440
No, a hundred.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:03.039
And I hope I wasn't saying it.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.280
No, no, I I wasn't no, it's this is a good balance because yeah, it's hard, it's hard to tell.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.119
Like, is it you know, I would like to know.
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:37.039
I would love to see, and maybe, maybe send me something because I would or if anybody's listening, send us some stuff that please, yes, um, yeah, like longitudinal studies that will compare um the mental effects of children on divorce, or if they're in in marriages where there's a lot of yelling, not abuse.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:47.039
Right, like you know, I mean, I actually I I don't mind saying I I grew up in a very chaotic home, and I'm I'm really glad my parents didn't divorce.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.440
That's where I'm like, I'm actually glad.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.880
I I'm glad my dad stayed in there and he he's awesome, you know.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.639
And I, you know, yeah.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:01.760
I I would love our audience, and but you too, like what what are the what are the ramp what are the longitudinal studies about this versus this?
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.280
I I would love to know what that is.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:03.760
Yeah.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.400
Now that doesn't necessarily go back on act though.
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.559
I think we still go back to values.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.679
Again, I I yeah, that's tricky.
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:12.480
It really is.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:13.920
It really is.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:19.840
And and I and I think, you know, and I found where I where I was referencing it from.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:27.440
It was in um, but again, there's so much information out there, and I do think it has, to your point, an impact.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:38.079
I think they were talking about in situations where there it's also greater marital hostility and chronically elevated levels of stress.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.960
Um so it's a little bit of a different scenario there.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:47.440
Um, but they were they just followed up with the there was a little bit of a lingerie.
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.400
I can't say that word for the life of me today.
00:38:50.719 --> 00:39:09.760
But when they followed up with uh children through the age of 15, that's where they found that those children, um, compared to others of their age were had had examples of like truancy depression, peer rejection, um, behavioral issues, school achievement, and even school failure.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:20.719
But again, that's not to say, like to your point, there's not impacts of also what happens when a when a family unit is separating.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:27.199
I think too, it comes into how we do that, which is why that trial separation and talking to a couples therapist along the way.
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.400
I think sometimes people say, okay, our relationship, we're getting separated.
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:32.480
We don't need to engage in couples therapy.
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:49.119
And I think that's where I would encourage people to have those conversations because if we are ultimately going to be making a decision to divorce at the end of that separation, which could happen, I think it's the how that also my hope would be could help mitigate.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:58.639
Not that there's not going to be an impact, there will be, but I think how we go through that transition also as a family unit, not just as a couple, is really, really, really, really important.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.360
Um, and what are your thoughts?
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:04.719
Yeah, that's so good.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:05.360
I love that.
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:11.280
Yeah, I always like, I always like to bring fairness here because I think, yeah, thank you for bringing up those studies too.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.079
I like to just, you know, it's just like, okay, here's the research.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:16.559
This is it could do a lot, and this is could do a lot.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.880
I think there's just there's such a today.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:31.840
I and I wanted to push back too because it's like there, I hear way too many marriage therapists like push, find your voice, find your, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:34.079
Like slow down here.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.320
Like you're you gotta really bring in the other research here too.
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:47.920
It's like, you know, and um I think sometimes marriage therapists and therapists in general, they're they're hesitant to bring out research that's kind of offensive, you know.
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:49.840
I'm gonna be politically incorrect.
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:58.000
There's a lot of research that says, you know, like, you know, if you if if a parent um can uh not, yeah, what is it?
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:02.960
Like at least at the most part, like try to be with your children the first few years, which is better for the kids.
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:04.480
A lot of people say, How dare you?
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:06.320
Now you're against women working.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.960
I'm like, no, but the research does say that.
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:16.559
Like, I'm not trying to be, you know, it's uh it has nothing to do with like hurting your feelings and psychology.
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.920
I always say this with my my students, it can be offensive sometimes.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:20.719
It really can.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:25.119
Like a yeah, divorce can really affect a child, um, 100%.
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.760
Even even if like and I want you guys to really think about that.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:33.039
And I've seen it, I've also seen divorces where it hasn't.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:42.880
I mean, I will admit, like, I've I've met with kids and they're I will sometimes bring up the like the fact that his parents are divorced or her parents, and they're like, Oh, yeah, well, thanks, Peter, for bringing that up.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.239
I wasn't even thinking about that, and I haven't for like four years, but I appreciate that.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.360
I'm like, okay.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:51.280
So I mean, yeah, it's such a balance on what to what to say.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.039
But um, no, thanks for that.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:54.239
This is a good discussion.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:55.440
Jessica, thank you.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:57.519
Thank you for yeah, thanks for coming on.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:02.079
Well, um, I have I have a hard two, and Jessica, I think, does too.
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:03.840
Uh, I said a lot of twos there.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.280
Uh, we're not drinking, I am I'm literally only drinking water.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:11.599
Uh so but I'm being a little naughty today.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:17.199
I'm having um, usually I try to stay away from soda, but I am totally going through a ginger ale phase.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.119
So I'm oh sweet deal.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.199
Well, it's good for the ginger, it's good for you.
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:22.559
But thanks everybody for listening.
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.239
Please leave any comments and uh we love your reviews.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:35.679
Yes, please, please share, share us on X so that um Elon can then like our comment content and then we can get millions of subscribers.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.559
I'm kidding.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:38.480
Because that's what we're going for, right?
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:39.119
Right.
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:40.480
All right, I'm just joking.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:42.320
No, but thanks everybody for listening.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:43.840
All right, thank you.
00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:01.600
All right.
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:03.520
Welcome to Drinks with Shrinks.
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:04.160
Welcome.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:05.040
Hi.
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.240
We are your hosts, Jessica and Peter.
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Jessica, how are you?
00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:09.919
Hi.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:10.800
Good to see you.
00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:12.480
Nice to see you.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:13.759
How are you doing?
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:15.279
I'm I'm okay.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:16.160
I'm okay.
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:16.960
Yes.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.079
Yeah.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:23.280
Um, Jessica and I have been working together for we're going on eight years.
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Is it really already?
00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:25.679
Oh my goodness.
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:26.239
I think so.
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Seven years.
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Seven years.
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We've been working together since seven years.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:28.960
Yeah.
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You you came on um in 2019, right before the pandemic.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:34.960
Yeah.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:39.679
And you made me laugh during the interview because you said something about fried chicken or something.
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:41.679
And then I just laughed and I was like, you're hired.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.039
And um I can't remember what the context was.
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:46.320
I wish I remembered.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:47.600
Oh, it was like crispy.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:48.799
It's like crispy like chicken.
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I can't remember the crispy.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.520
Yes, I know.
00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:54.960
And I can't remember the context.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:56.640
I just remember laughing genuinely.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:00.320
For I was like, and I told my wife, I was like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna hire her.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:01.119
She made me laugh.
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:02.960
So I was like, okay, go for it.
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:08.319
I um I think you were describing maybe you were describing private practice.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.120
It's like it fries me like crispy chicken or something like that.
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.439
And anyway, it was like a very good metaphor.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:15.280
But um, yeah.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.480
Well, today we're gonna be talking about something kind of serious.
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So we'll be talking about uh basically, yeah, we're gonna be addressing separation.
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And uh separation is a very real word, it doesn't always mean divorce.
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I know a lot of people think it means divorce.
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Uh, we should probably talk about that.
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And um yeah, I'm really excited about today because I think whenever people think about separation, they think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get a divorce, my life is over.
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And that's often not the case.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:56.879
In fact, John Gottman, who uh Jessica and I quote quite a bit, um, he's he talks quite a bit about uh, you know, how separation can actually save a marriage.
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And um, why don't we talk about that?
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What would you say is the difference?
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Is let's talk about like the differences between separation and divorce.
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How do you explain those differences?
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.639
Like when a client's coming in and they're saying, okay, we're thinking of divorce, I usually slow them down.
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I usually say, Well, let's hold up, hold up.
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Why don't we take a month break?
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And um, while we do this month break, why don't we really process whether or not you really want to do that?
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Uh in fact, I don't even want to you to even mention that word again.
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I usually stop my clients short.
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Uh, it's like, can we let's let's hold back a little bit?
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And I usually talk to them about what separation means and what it looks like.
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Now, of course, there's a lot of different dynamics of that.
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If the person is separating because they want to um they're already in an affair, that's gonna be a lot trickier.
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Uh, I usually tell people if they can not connect with that affair partner for the next month, just to think about it.
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But how do you go about it?
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Let's talk, you know, yeah.
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No, and I appreciate that distinction.
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And I think part of this is where I lean in a little bit more to discernment counseling, like those three paths that they talk about, where you know, there's a decision to stay together.
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There's a decision when we talk about divorce, you know, of course, there are legal ramifications with that as well, but um, it's really like we are making a decision that we are not coming back together, right?
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In a romantic marital way.
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And then separation is I view it kind of my word is space where we're making a conscious and consensual, hopefully consensual decision to step back.
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It's not that divorce is off the table, but we're making um an intentional decision to give you name the window of time, where we are all into this relationship, where we are really focusing on what we can do to make a relationship work.
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So that's kind of one version of it.
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Another version I might use with people is separation, having clear boundaries around what that time apart looks like.
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I don't know if that makes how how that how that lands with you, but just it's not that the relationship is over over, but we are taking time apart to reflect on ourselves while being honoring the relationship still.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:22.240
Um if it is a monogamous relationship, assuming that.
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Um how's that does that land with your definition or how would you define it?
00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:27.839
Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, separation is like really just kind of taking your time mess necessary um to see whether or not this marriage is really going to work.
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And um, or or if separation, yeah, especially I often say separation, it's it's I I put a lot of um you know, a lot of it uh on the emphasis, especially if they have like kids.
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Let's say, for example, they've got two or three kids and whatnot.
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I'm like, okay, could we I really want to slow down here?
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Um, you know, I I get it if it's if it's you know, it's one thing if um they're maybe like they're newly, even if they're newlyweds, I still take it a lot of consideration.
00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:09.199
But I mean, um, a lot of people don't necessarily know what it even looks like.
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They're living together and especially if they've been together for a very, very long time.
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Uh, they don't necessarily see any problems with, you know, um uh separating because hey, I could live without this person.
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And then, you know, the the shit hits the fan.
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Uh, and then they don't know, like their lives are not the same without that person.
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.279
So it's just kind of like, you know, so I see separation.
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I put it as like a almost like a trial period.
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You have to, you have to put reality, I want you to live as if this is like as if you're you're divorced.
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Be um, you know, uh, and then after about a month, how how how did that go?
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Because I want that if they don't, if they don't do that, then they're going to be they're gonna be in for a ride.
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Because I mean, divorce is um final, obviously.
00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:05.199
And you want to be able to know whether or not like, yeah, you you're uh you can live with your with uh without that person in your life.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.800
I I mean, I don't know if I'm adding or any anything more to that, but I mean that's kind of the way I define it.
00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.000
Do you feel like in that in that trial window?
00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.839
Because I I feel like therapists have different positions on this.
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Sometimes I might recommend to a couple, depending on their situation, you know, maybe a period where we before a separation decision is made, and they're maybe considering something like that.
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:41.279
A trial period also of like going, let's go all in and see if that moves the needle, and and a trial period of time apart.
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.199
So there's like a comparison.
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What are your thoughts on that process?
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You mean like a trial period, oh, together and then apart?
00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.199
Yeah, kind of like I don't know.
00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:57.120
I usually think of separation like I want you all to really feel the pain of it, you know.
00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.759
I I want you all to like limit your texting.
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Um, I want you to act as if you're divorced, but you're not, you know.
00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:17.040
So I want you to make sure that you're not seeing anybody, you're not dating anybody, not right now, but only come together briefly through texts and then um meet together every week.
00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:22.319
Yeah, just every week for couples therapy and try not to, you know, talk that much.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:24.800
And they might say, Well, well, what if I do really want to talk?
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It's like, I know, but you're thinking of this.
00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:38.079
And I want you to really kind of sit with it because you need to sit with whether or not you want to um stay with your values here because something's being like, and plus you want to know even what your values are.
00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:43.439
I think most people, when they're thinking of divorce, they're so disconnected with their values.
00:07:43.680 --> 00:08:02.560
I mean, act acceptance, commitment therapy talks a lot about that's usually why there's so much fusion and also why there's so much avoidance and we get stuck um with our own self-concept, which means comparison and we're we're not in, we're we feel like we're not doing things in line with our own, or excuse me, we get very goal driven.
00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.240
And so I want you to just over the next month really know what those values are.
00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:18.399
And if you could start having a relationship that's based on workability, um, not you know, because a lot of relationships, I think they get so rigid, and you're wanting to become flexible once again.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:24.480
But to find that, you have to, you want to really kind of feel the pain a little bit.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:25.279
That's me.
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.879
Um, you know, because I don't want them to keep doing it and playing.
00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:33.600
I I sometimes see this with couples, they'll play flirt, they'll like flirt with separation.
00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:40.720
And like he's in the basement, and then she's in the attic, like she's in, you know, her room, and they're seeing each other almost all the time.
00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.200
And then I'm like, wait, that's not a separation.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:47.360
Um, and like that's they're calling it that, but it's not.
00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.720
And then they're then they use divorce as like a threat.
00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:52.799
And then that does a lot of damage.
00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:57.039
And it's like, okay, but if we're gonna really talk about this, then let's talk about this.
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If you're not gonna talk about this, let's let's get our hands dirty and not talk about it.
00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.440
And let's work on the four, you know, the four horsemen and get let's get let's get dirty.
00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:15.679
Sometimes people use these words to kind of stay disconnected and connected at the same time, and they'll do that for like 10 years, which and yeah, you got to make a decision.
00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:18.080
Make a decision, make a decision.
00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:19.919
Yeah.
00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.000
But no, I don't know.
00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:22.879
Yeah, go ahead.
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:29.679
No, I was just gonna say really value that because I was when we were talking about, especially like in that example, like potentially 10 years, right?
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:46.960
Think about also the harm that comes when the relationship is always feeling like it's on the chopping block, you know, just the instability that can create and also the value of those terms when we're just throwing them out there, it desensitizes on some level, right?
00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:48.320
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:10:15.840
Um, and so no, I I I just really value that the clarity that you're talking about, which is if if we're truly talking about separation and we are doing a trial there, um, and that's the decision that's been reached, then we need to look at how are we practicing that and shifting those routines, how we're sharing in things, as if that were actually happening, right?
00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:30.080
But what it does is I think to your point, when we're apart from maybe some of the dynamics that feel insurmountable at the time, kind of like when you're flooded, if you will, it's one of those things that how do I feel when I'm apart from the relationship?
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.240
What do I notice about myself and who I am apart from the relationship?
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:40.799
Maybe also there's some perspective there, like when you were talking about values and those things that we're longing for.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:46.639
Maybe when we step away, maybe we also find I do miss this person.
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:51.759
This is potentially repairable when you're not in it, right?
00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:55.600
Um, the perspective and clarity that can give.
00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:57.120
Yeah.
00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.279
When when do you start seeing separated?
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:00.480
Like, what are some red flags?
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.240
And when do you start maybe encourage?
00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:04.240
I don't ever try to encourage it.
00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:05.679
It's it's as much well.
00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:11.679
I encourage it in the sense like if they're saying we will get divorced, then I encourage it because I see it as a stepping stone.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:17.039
But what are some what are some flags maybe that you see that where you might recommend it?
00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:19.840
I'm just curious, and then I can I can answer that as well.
00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:34.399
Um I think that some of the flags are, you know, Gottman, for example, talks a lot about the four horsemen criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, but also something called negative sentiment override, right?
00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:49.200
Where our we're scanning more for negative um traits and/or negative sentiments about our partner or the relationship, override any positive ones to the point where we're potentially rewriting our history.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:12:12.080
And so if I think, you know, the four horsemen are rampant running around in that relationship, if in addition to we're really unable to recollect anything positive or any assign any positive attributes to our partner or marriage, I think sometimes like I think of it like a dirty window, right?
00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:21.519
When we're stepping away, does that space also allow for like that us to wipe away the dirt so we can get a clearer picture of our partner?
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:22.480
Right.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.480
Um, so I think sometimes those are, especially contempt.
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:35.679
I think that's one where those warning signs that negative sentiment is particularly high, but also contempt, the four horsemen are really rampant.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:40.799
It doesn't mean just because those things are there, the relationship is doomed and we need to separate.
00:12:41.039 --> 00:13:06.240
I think there's a certain degree of that that takes place, and when also commitment, when commitment is not something that we feel, if if if we're in a monogamous marriage and we are feeling that we no longer cherish this relationship, are willing to continue to invest in it, are having thoughts about others, right?
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:14.960
Where we may act on those thoughts, and there really isn't an ability to say, no, I am willing, like a willingness to work on the relationship.
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.080
Those are all kind of warning factors to me that I look for.
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:25.120
You can be questioning things, but is there a willingness to want to work toward repair resolution?
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:26.960
What do you think?
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:27.919
Yeah, I like that.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:28.720
I like that a lot.
00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:30.879
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.120
Well, definitely a lot of contempt.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.440
Um you know, maybe we should explain.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.080
A lot of people think they know what contempt is.
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:43.279
A lot of people say, well, my husband scowls at me sometimes, or my wife always criticizes me.
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:44.320
And that's not contempt.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:49.200
I mean, I I I contempt is um disgust.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.519
It's a very powerful emotion.
00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.200
It's looking not just looking, scowling, but it's like looking, yeah, yeah.
00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.200
It's like looking down on you as if you're a smaller person.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:12.320
And that's a oh man, that's that's you know, I mean, Gaudman proved that like through a lot of his studies that when you when disgust takes over, your immune system starts to compromise, which actually makes sense.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:17.919
You know, I mean, you your immune system does compromise actually when you're around bad food or whatnot.
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.919
Like, you know, it's like your fear because your immune system is always on high alert.
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:39.200
And if that goes, if that if that if it feels that way for over, you know, for years, that does a lot of damage to the heart because you're you're producing a lot of uh it's not just it's more than just anger, it's transcending anger to the point where um I see you as a germ.
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:50.639
Uh and the only the only approach to uh when contempt gets so bad in the relationship, the cure for that is what building a culture of appreciation.
00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:56.799
So what separation is hopefully doing is that you start to appreciate that partner again.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:02.559
And that's why I don't like the flirting, like, oh, we're gonna go back and forth and back and forth, and you know, he lives upstairs, I live downstairs.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.799
Okay, look, y'all have to make an opinion, you know, if you want to get get dirty, get dirty.
00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.240
But we can't just like throw these words around.
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.759
Um, how can you appreciate your partner while living with them?
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.159
And if you could do that, let's let's get messy and I want you all to stop using those words.
00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:24.799
But if you're going to use that word and you're onto that point, can you build that culture of appreciation once again for your partner?
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:40.320
And I've seen this with with couples, maybe there's been an affair, um, and they're so determined, I really need to make sure that I I divorce my my my husband or my wife, and you know, and then they separate for about a month, maybe even two months, and they don't talk a lot.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.720
And then they start to realize, okay, my my partner's actually done a lot of really good work.
00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:46.240
I really miss them.
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:56.480
Um wow, I've I've really gotten to the point where I I have really uh, you know, um, I need to do some work myself.
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.159
I can't just blame them that they're the source of all my problems.
00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:02.480
I'm not perfect either.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.840
And they're willing to work and they want to be with me.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:12.639
And I don't know if I could live without this person and I start appreciating this person once again, and maybe I start dating them again.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.679
That's a good, that's like that's an example of like a beautiful story of how separation can bring back life.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:33.279
Yeah, but that I so I always kind of present, I mean, I don't know if this is answering a question or not, but I always present it not as a hopeless situation, but as a as a think of it as a as a risky situation that could possibly produce a resurrection or a death.
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.679
Um I love how you worded that.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:36.080
Yeah.
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.120
Which sounds very biblical, but that's okay, like Eastern.
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.679
Well, that story has been around for thousands of years, too.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.200
So stand to the test of time.
00:16:47.440 --> 00:17:00.480
But yeah, but to that point though, it is because you know, sometimes too, it's it's recognizing there also might have been things in the dynamic between us that weren't serving us, right?
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.440
And so when you talk about that idea of resurrection, it is.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:25.119
It's also the opportunity to recognize maybe in some ways, if we say like marriage 1.0 wasn't it is maybe the death of that, but also the building and the opportunity to build marriage 2.0, holding on to those things that we truly cherish and value while also learning new ways because we're not stuck in a vacuum, we evolve over time, right?
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:33.039
How do we learn to grow again together and evolve and make shifts in our marriage where we both feel honored?
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:50.640
And so I think something really beautiful can happen, but it's also with that emotional intensity coming down and returning to some of those fundamental pillars of our friendship, which is that fondness and admiration, that ability to appreciate the other person and scan for the things that you value about them.
00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.359
There's a reason why you chose them, right?
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.720
And reconnecting to those things.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:02.160
And sometimes it's in that time apart that you miss it, that thing that they would just do.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.000
And I wish I could talk to them about this.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.319
And sometimes that can get reignited.
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:11.759
You can feel that.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:24.559
And and I think also to your point about um, you know, being able where the blame isn't solely on my partner, but being able to describe your own feelings and your own needs.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:35.200
And sometimes when you're not in the situation and you have that room, maybe it's an opportunity to reconnect to those things so you can say them in a more productive way.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:40.640
Um, in a way that would give your partner the opportunity to work with you.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.160
You know.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.759
Um, sorry, I went on a tangent.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.920
No, no, I'm well, well, we both do.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.799
Um that's why we're that's why we're working together.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:55.519
No, I don't like if I got upset about that, I would be a hypocrite.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.599
Uh no, no, I don't think it was a tangent.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.160
That was great.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.200
That was that was um when would you recommend?
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.119
Yeah, maybe it leads to this next question.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.119
What so when what when have you seen?
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:15.680
And I guess I should I should back up because we as marriage therapists, we should probably explain to our audience, like we don't really recommend stuff as much as we try to recommend what's in what's in according to your values.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.279
Like I often reflect back.
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:28.000
I was just meeting with a client earlier this morning, and I noticed that I was giving advice, and then I stopped myself and I said, actually, just to let you know, I'm not giving advice, I'm telling you what you just told me.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:35.039
And I and she smiled and she appreciated that because I'm like, I'm not, I'm just telling you what you said to said to me 15 minutes ago.
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.839
And you know, so that's what I'm giving you back.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:49.599
So um uh when when do you start seeing your clients veer into oh gosh, they separate and then they do realize, yeah, I need a divorce.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.039
Like what what are maybe we could talk about some of those observations.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.200
I mean, I don't mind going first on that too.
00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:19.200
I mean um I mean I I I guess yeah, I I uh I I I often see it when they they're at peace and they've they have not been with that person for over a month or two months, and they there's no there's no there's you don't sense that disgust anymore, which is really good.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.799
Um and they've come back and they've really, really thought about it.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.880
If they're religious, prayed about it.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:27.359
Yeah.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:35.680
Um they've re they've really reconnected with their values and they've realized that their own values have been so compromised.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.160
Um they don't want to live like this anymore.
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:50.079
They have no there's not a sense of there's not a sense of like this anger or hatred toward the partner anymore, which I really like.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:56.720
It's just more like I wish them the best, but yeah, I think I need to move on.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.880
Like I should say that's that's probably where I see it as the in the healthiest place.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.200
Obviously, I don't ever encourage divorce.
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.759
I I'm sad when my clients divorce.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.799
I'm I I this is where I kind of disagree with some marriage therapist.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:21.680
I was just talking to somebody the other day, and he was like, Well, my my my goal for this couple is to eventually get to the point where they just find themselves.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.039
And I'm like, and he I was like, I'm really pro them.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.079
And he kind of pushed back.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.759
He's like, Well, I'm not really pro the couple, I just want them to find their voice.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:31.920
And I I had to push back on that.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.960
And I'm like, Well, no, I'm I'm really pro them.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.119
I really hope they make it here.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:52.640
So, I mean, I I'm always sad when a couple divorces, but if that person gets to that point where they are there and they just can't move forward, then I I I I I feel like I could really process in a very healthy way with them.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.680
Um, but if they're at a place where they're just so still living with a lot of contempt.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.160
I I kind of dig a little deeper.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.319
I often say, well, okay, I I still don't know if divorce is right or not.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.559
Can we can we explore that a little bit?
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:14.160
I mean, you know, could we is it is yeah, that's kind of my approach.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:32.400
I'm again I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold them back if they still feel like they need to go through it, but I I try to if there's still this energy that's still very uh rigid against the other person, um, I often kind of well, could we could we maybe take a little bit more time?
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.720
Anyway, that's that's kind of how I process.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:38.160
How you how you do it.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.799
No, I I I I love that point.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:59.839
And I think so going back a little bit to go forward, but I think you know, some again of those signs are when there's also that loss of empathy, that lot like that more um disengagement, right?
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.160
Whether it be emotional or otherwise.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:21.599
And I think times when I see a separation might lead for them to make a decision to divorce, is times when that they might be coming back from that and they might say, you know what?
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:35.279
In this time apart, I feel more uh a deeper sense of engagement, not only with myself, but I feel more of my needs and who I am as an individual.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:47.599
I feel so much more of myself is sometimes like something I hear, in which case, you know, and sometimes in those situations, um I'm seeing them finally make a decision to divorce.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.920
The other thing too is if that empathy can't be restored.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:24:01.359
So sometimes um if in that time there's still, again, those negative sentiments overriding.
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:15.519
I I love the the outcome where they can both amicably separate, but there are times when it's also that loss of I feel like empathy, like of I don't, I don't want to do this.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.720
Like there's there's a hard time taking that accountability, and also when there's irreconcilable differences, right?
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:42.400
Where they just feel fun coming back to those values, they feel the what they need for their values, their beliefs, um, their needs to be honored is just unequivocally um incompatible with what their partner's position might be.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:56.880
And that, and in those cases, it's sometimes I can still have a love for you as someone I shared a life with, someone that um I do have a deep sense of friendship with.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:04.559
I though cannot move forward in an authentic way for myself if these needs aren't met.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:20.400
Um, so that's also sometimes when I feel like I see the decision of a couple when like they've tried certain roads and even they might have had that separation, trial separation, but that those needs they just can't align.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:33.839
And so they make a decision to say, look, like again, meaning no ill will here, and they try to do it as cordially as possible, but they do make a decision to go their separate ways.
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:34.799
Yeah.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.400
I do wonder, not to, you know, and I could I could throw this throw throw a bone here.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.279
I mean, a little bit.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:50.240
I mean, I I I wonder if the biggest critique of divorce culture is because you had said, like, you know, not finding my own values.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.960
There's a lot of sub a lot of people might object to that a little bit, saying, well, maybe that's the problem.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:56.799
There's too much subjectivity.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:04.799
Um, you know, I just read something that I think it's like practicing Catholics and Muslims and Jews.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039
I think the divorce rate is like 14%.
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:08.160
Is it?
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:17.759
And yeah, whereas the divorce rate for I think atheists 38 and then Protestants, and we're always number one, aren't we?
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.319
I'm kidding.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.079
Like I think it's like 47.
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:25.200
Yeah, Protestants, like 47, and then non-committal Protestants is like 49.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:46.720
Um, Protestantism and atheism kind of has an element of like, you know, I mean, you think of like, well, it's my Bible and my verse, whereas like when you think of Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, especially Catholic, it's more like, no, it's, I mean, I know Catholics see marriage as a as a sacrament, which is really, really powerful.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:48.720
It's like this is yeah.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.240
How do you how do you adopt?
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:55.119
I guess my question is, because I try to adopt the language of my clients a little bit too.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:55.680
Oh, yeah.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:04.319
Um, you know, because yeah, I think I I kind of toy, I I'm um, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a Christian, I don't mind admitting that.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:15.279
And like I I have clients who are they'll often bring faith in the element of that, and they'll often how do you play, how do you play with that?
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.119
I mean, I I even though I am, I don't I have a lot of I have a lot of clients who aren't, and I I never push that.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:27.200
I I I always go that's what I love about ACT, because Act, I think values is something higher than us.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:27.680
Yeah.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:34.880
Um, it's that archetype that I feel like that Young was talking about without feeling like you're pushing your own beliefs at the same time.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:44.319
Values, I think, is something that's really beautifully said and written about because it's more than just finding my peace.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.000
It's it's maybe my value is justice.
00:27:48.160 --> 00:28:02.960
My maybe like if like if it like an affair, this is an example, like if his if her value is forgiveness, grace, and kindness, and that's that's like the root of who she is.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:10.799
She might say, like, no, I can't, I can't, I can't divorce.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:26.240
Whereas this person, if it's like if there is an affair and and their value, his her value is um justice, um, truth, and um loyalty or loyalty, right?
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.759
They might get to the point and they're like, no, no.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:42.240
Like, so it's that's that's really that's an interesting, and that I think that's what I love about ACT, because both are both kind of transcend us, and both are actually in religious text, really, which is kind of beautiful.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.519
Loyalty, justice, and forgiveness and love.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.079
So it's like that's the dialectic of even religious text.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.839
So I get I know that's a lot there, but like how do you how do you play with that?
00:28:51.920 --> 00:29:00.559
Like without getting too subjective, but also, you know, yeah, you made this promise, you made this oath, and marriage is more than just dating.
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:02.559
It's like at least that's the view I have.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:04.480
How do you how do you toy with all that?
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.839
Because these are more like philosophical questions, I suppose.
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:18.880
And I think so, definitely using the client's words and really trying to paraphrase back and repeat back what I'm hearing them say to make sure I'm on the same page.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:36.960
But I think also looking at, um, and there are different ways I might do that, but I think also looking at in any given situation, trying to ask them really open-ended questions that dig deeper into what are those underlying tenets there?
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:48.480
Is there some type of rule by which I make my decisions or that guides my actions that feels like it's underlying whatever that particular issue is?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.079
Like, what is it that makes that so important?
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.440
What is it, if especially too?
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:01.359
I I am a big proponent of emotions or conduits of needs.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:10.640
And so, in a situation that might be more emotionally intense, it our emotions are trying to tell us or bring our attention to something that is important.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.480
And sometimes that can be even a segue into a deeper value conversation.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:16.880
You know, what are your underlying dreams there?
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.880
You know, like there's a need here.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:20.079
Where does that need come from?
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.000
Like, tell me the story about that.
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:39.839
And so I think just digging in and trying to get them to kind of look at what are those guiding symbols, beliefs, tenets that are really important and how are they playing out or a part of this particular situation or dynamic?
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.160
And what does that say or mean for me?
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.599
Because it's not up to me to decide is your value being met here or not.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:47.839
Only you know the answer to that, right?
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:52.480
But I want to help you get connected to whatever that thing is for you.
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:53.519
Nice, yeah.
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:54.319
That's that's good.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.039
I like that.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:02.240
Yeah, that's that's really and I think that's what I love about ACT so much because it does push the transcendent without being pushy.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.440
And it is it is there's an element of subjectivity to it, and there's not.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:08.880
It's a little bit of dbt.
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:27.279
It's like it is kind of your values are gonna be different, but like I said, this person over here, if it's honor, justice, and truth, again, those are those are archetypes that have been around for thousands of years, whereas this person's maybe this is and that maybe after, but they want to do what's workable in line with it.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:37.440
And usually people, I think uh another thing I love about ACT too is like there there is so much rigidity in ourselves and maybe in our marriage because we're not in line with our values anymore.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.839
We're doing everything that they want to do.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:55.119
And it's like, no, this may and maybe that's where the separation could be actually really healthy, because if you could know what that is and then stop nitpicking because you're always you're you're you're too concerned about them, them and not yourself in a good way, in a healthy way.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:00.960
And then you're either people pleasing or getting too rigid about yourself, you can get centered again.
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:05.759
And then which what's beautiful about that is like hopefully when you come back, you could be a lot more flexible.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.960
I mean, Gottman talks a lot about knowing your core need first and foremost and compromise.
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:13.440
And then everything else is just like, whatever.
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:14.960
You know, I don't care.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:21.680
And I usually know when a client, like a couple is like when they're nitpicky, you know, it's like you know, and they're like, No, you didn't.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:23.440
I'm like, Well, what's your core need?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:24.480
And they're like, What do you mean?
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:25.279
They don't know.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:27.680
It's such a I get that same response.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:28.400
All the time.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.880
So I remember, I remember, um, yeah, that's like that's very psychological, like about that.
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:45.759
Like, there's there's something that's I know I remember I was um when I used to do like circuit preaching at a church, and there was this one church and they had divided, and guess what they divided over?
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:46.640
They split.
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:54.319
It was and it was like a 600-member church, which up here is like huge, down there it's whatever, but divided because of the paint, the paint in the basement.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:54.960
Really?
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:56.240
That was it.
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:58.640
There they but they had no core vision.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:32:59.839
It was like love everybody.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:01.519
Well, that's not a core vision.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:10.960
And it was like, and you when you talk to both groups of people, which I did, like this group really did think white was better, and they would even bring in like verses.
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:12.400
I'm like, what are you talking about?
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:22.319
And then this person in this group over here who thought beige was better, they would even like, but they didn't, they didn't, they didn't know what their core need was, and so they would nitpick.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.680
It's like these teeny little dick, you know, fucking everything on the surface.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:26.240
100%.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.440
It's like, well, he doesn't do the dishes at six o'clock like I asked him to.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.960
Okay, well, what's your core need?
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:32.319
What do you mean?
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.480
Like, what is it?
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:36.400
Yeah, I want you to be connected with that.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.920
So it's like, slow down.
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.559
Hopefully, when you come back, that's that's the flexibility that you're often looking for.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.680
Um and that's that's again, yeah.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:53.039
I'm it's I'm glad we're talking about this because I I like that we're kind of giving a positive, not a positive spin, but it's like it's not a death sentence.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:03.039
It could be a wonderful opportunity to you for you to really find what's most important so you can make this marriage work.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:08.159
Um, or what like what you said, find what's important most important so that you you can move on.
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.519
Um it's kind of a win-win in that way.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.480
Um wow, no, I like that.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.000
Yeah, because I think okay, yeah.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:43.760
Also for in a situation where, and I know it might require a little bit more delicacy and and mindfulness and how it's being presented, but even when there's a situation where kids are involved and there's this trial, what it also does is helps hopefully to create an environment that's less potentially hostile, right, or tense, and that has a positive impact on kids and their development as well.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:00.800
And so I think there's a positive there because sometimes I hear, but the kids, but the kids, and my answer to that is research shows you know, staying together for the kids, so to speak, right?
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:09.119
In a situation where there is hostility or really intense interactions, and kids are exposed to that on a regular basis.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.840
That is not good for that, does not always impact them well.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:25.599
So, in cases where we're not getting divorced, but we're trying to create some space, it's also diffusing that tension and creating stability and maybe even some calm in the household.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:29.360
So I think there's an opportunity there as a family too.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.159
Um, and to still process those things.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:37.679
Like I said, there's a lot there that I'm now kind of chipping away at, but a lot more discussion there.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:49.599
But I think also not to associate making a decision to separate and take may have a trial separation be seen as a negative for a family unit either.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.840
It can actually maybe have some positive impacts there too.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:07.440
Yeah, I try to be balanced with that because there's also tons of research that says kids are man, there's a lot of research that also says that kids they're gonna be affected by that with a divorce for the rest of their lives.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:18.239
Um, you know, yeah, there's there's a lot, like especially boys not seeing their dads for, you know, but once a month, and or girls do, you know, and then yeah, yeah.
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:43.679
And so the research is, yeah, it's it's interesting because the I think Yeah, when I I remember I remember doing a doing a course once, and they talked a lot about the research out there on on like the effects of what divorce does to and we often this marriage surface, we I find myself like you know, not like forgetting to bring that up, but that's just as important for my clients to hear just as much.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.119
Like, you know, just that and that's why you need a lot of discernment counseling.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:53.119
I really, really want you guys to make sure that you're doing like you're really, really thinking about this because your kids won't be the same.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:57.199
That's where I disagree with like a lot of marriage counselors sometimes are like, oh no, they'll be.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:59.360
I'm like, no, no, they'll be affected.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:00.719
It has an impact.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:01.440
No, a hundred.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:03.039
And I hope I wasn't saying it.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.280
No, no, I I wasn't no, it's this is a good balance because yeah, it's hard, it's hard to tell.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.119
Like, is it you know, I would like to know.
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:37.039
I would love to see, and maybe, maybe send me something because I would or if anybody's listening, send us some stuff that please, yes, um, yeah, like longitudinal studies that will compare um the mental effects of children on divorce, or if they're in in marriages where there's a lot of yelling, not abuse.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:47.039
Right, like you know, I mean, I actually I I don't mind saying I I grew up in a very chaotic home, and I'm I'm really glad my parents didn't divorce.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.440
That's where I'm like, I'm actually glad.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.880
I I'm glad my dad stayed in there and he he's awesome, you know.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.639
And I, you know, yeah.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:01.760
I I would love our audience, and but you too, like what what are the what are the ramp what are the longitudinal studies about this versus this?
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.280
I I would love to know what that is.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:03.760
Yeah.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.400
Now that doesn't necessarily go back on act though.
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.559
I think we still go back to values.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.679
Again, I I yeah, that's tricky.
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:12.480
It really is.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:13.920
It really is.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:19.840
And and I and I think, you know, and I found where I where I was referencing it from.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:27.440
It was in um, but again, there's so much information out there, and I do think it has, to your point, an impact.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:38.079
I think they were talking about in situations where there it's also greater marital hostility and chronically elevated levels of stress.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.960
Um so it's a little bit of a different scenario there.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:47.440
Um, but they were they just followed up with the there was a little bit of a lingerie.
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.400
I can't say that word for the life of me today.
00:38:50.719 --> 00:39:09.760
But when they followed up with uh children through the age of 15, that's where they found that those children, um, compared to others of their age were had had examples of like truancy depression, peer rejection, um, behavioral issues, school achievement, and even school failure.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:20.719
But again, that's not to say, like to your point, there's not impacts of also what happens when a when a family unit is separating.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:27.199
I think too, it comes into how we do that, which is why that trial separation and talking to a couples therapist along the way.
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.400
I think sometimes people say, okay, our relationship, we're getting separated.
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:32.480
We don't need to engage in couples therapy.
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:49.119
And I think that's where I would encourage people to have those conversations because if we are ultimately going to be making a decision to divorce at the end of that separation, which could happen, I think it's the how that also my hope would be could help mitigate.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:58.639
Not that there's not going to be an impact, there will be, but I think how we go through that transition also as a family unit, not just as a couple, is really, really, really, really important.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.360
Um, and what are your thoughts?
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:04.719
Yeah, that's so good.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:05.360
I love that.
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:11.280
Yeah, I always like, I always like to bring fairness here because I think, yeah, thank you for bringing up those studies too.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.079
I like to just, you know, it's just like, okay, here's the research.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:16.559
This is it could do a lot, and this is could do a lot.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.880
I think there's just there's such a today.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:31.840
I and I wanted to push back too because it's like there, I hear way too many marriage therapists like push, find your voice, find your, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:34.079
Like slow down here.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.320
Like you're you gotta really bring in the other research here too.
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:47.920
It's like, you know, and um I think sometimes marriage therapists and therapists in general, they're they're hesitant to bring out research that's kind of offensive, you know.
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:49.840
I'm gonna be politically incorrect.
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:58.000
There's a lot of research that says, you know, like, you know, if you if if a parent um can uh not, yeah, what is it?
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:02.960
Like at least at the most part, like try to be with your children the first few years, which is better for the kids.
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:04.480
A lot of people say, How dare you?
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:06.320
Now you're against women working.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.960
I'm like, no, but the research does say that.
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:16.559
Like, I'm not trying to be, you know, it's uh it has nothing to do with like hurting your feelings and psychology.
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.920
I always say this with my my students, it can be offensive sometimes.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:20.719
It really can.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:25.119
Like a yeah, divorce can really affect a child, um, 100%.
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.760
Even even if like and I want you guys to really think about that.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:33.039
And I've seen it, I've also seen divorces where it hasn't.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:42.880
I mean, I will admit, like, I've I've met with kids and they're I will sometimes bring up the like the fact that his parents are divorced or her parents, and they're like, Oh, yeah, well, thanks, Peter, for bringing that up.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.239
I wasn't even thinking about that, and I haven't for like four years, but I appreciate that.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.360
I'm like, okay.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:51.280
So I mean, yeah, it's such a balance on what to what to say.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.039
But um, no, thanks for that.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:54.239
This is a good discussion.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:55.440
Jessica, thank you.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:57.519
Thank you for yeah, thanks for coming on.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:02.079
Well, um, I have I have a hard two, and Jessica, I think, does too.
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:03.840
Uh, I said a lot of twos there.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.280
Uh, we're not drinking, I am I'm literally only drinking water.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:11.599
Uh so but I'm being a little naughty today.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:17.199
I'm having um, usually I try to stay away from soda, but I am totally going through a ginger ale phase.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.119
So I'm oh sweet deal.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.199
Well, it's good for the ginger, it's good for you.
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:22.559
But thanks everybody for listening.
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.239
Please leave any comments and uh we love your reviews.
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:35.679
Yes, please, please share, share us on X so that um Elon can then like our comment content and then we can get millions of subscribers.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.559
I'm kidding.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:38.480
Because that's what we're going for, right?
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:39.119
Right.
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:40.480
All right, I'm just joking.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:42.320
No, but thanks everybody for listening.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:43.840
All right, thank you.
