00:00:00
Speaker 1: This podcast is for general information only and should not be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
00:00:19
Speaker 2: Well, hello, I'm Amanda Keller. And I'm Anita McGregor. And welcome to Double A Chattery. Can I start by saying thank you to everyone for the beautiful response that the teacups have given us and me in light of me saying how hard I'd found my birthday and that glimmer I had where a woman, a stranger in the park, turned my whole perception of my woe is me because Harley wasn't well on my birthday. She completely shifted that for me. And we got so many similar responses. Comments from people. People are just going through stuff everywhere you look, aren't they? It's that idea. Was it Sonder? Sonder.
00:01:03
Speaker 1: You just don't know what's going on in somebody else's life.
00:01:06
Speaker 2: Everyone is going through a complex life. Yep. And how we all get out of bed and just get on with it. Congratulations to anyone who's just keeping it together, I reckon. Can I just read out some of these? Someone, Nat Adams says, Thanks, Amanda. My birthday's tomorrow. My husband of 27 years has been diagnosed with cancer. This is what I needed to hear today. Oh, there's this one from Nicole. Remember, you're not selfish. Because I felt bad berating, in my mind, berating Harley for not being himself on my birthday. She said, remember, you're not selfish. It's okay to feel the way you did. You have so much strength in the way you handled it. Sometimes total strangers hold space for us. There's not enough holding space for others. You are meant to meet this wonderful human. Be kind to yourself. And Anita, I need to thank you too, because you do, oh, I don't want to cry again. You always hold space for me. And even though you're so-called psychology.
00:02:07
Speaker 1: From the Acme School of Fine Psychology and Bartending, I will.
00:02:12
Speaker 2: Say, even though you're a very experienced forensic psychologist, You let me just sprout what I feel like sprouting. You just listen. And I'm very, very grateful. I just read one more of these. This is from Jan who said, her husband has progressive supranuclear palsy in the same family as Harley's illness. No treatment available. I saw him lose himself and I lost myself as the person across from me was not Ray, just a shell. I know what it is to be angry at the world and bereft at the same time. It was heartbreaking to see his loss. And yet he was my husband of more than 45 years who I loved dearly. I send you love every day, even though I don't know you'd be as strong as you can be. You know, these people, there's a story after story of people who are going through exactly the same thing. Can I just read one more? I needed this glimmer today. This is from Carmelina. It's my birthday today and my Paul has a progressive brain tumour and he's had a bad day. I've had a reframe too. He's still such a good man.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: Isn't that lovely? I get to read one too from All.
00:03:14
Speaker 2: Right, Anita. Can I? Thanks. From Linda Eagles.
00:03:18
Speaker 1: And I think that this is true, that she said there's angels on this earth that offer such insight right when you need it. It's not a coincidence. I do think that we do find people who help us find the way at the time when we need it. It's serendipitous, and it's beautiful, and it's just, you know, what a blessing that you had that.
00:03:40
Speaker 2: At that moment. And I'm glad I was open to it. I could easily just have picked up my dog poo and walked on. Instead, I left it there for the council arrangers. Well done. be good all the time. You can't. You can't.
00:03:53
Speaker 1: 50%.
00:03:53
Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing to aim for. Well, today, Anita, I'm going to take you into the world of conspiracy theories. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there's a phrase you hear a lot, but we've done a segment on our radio show called Tin Hat Tuesday that has gone ballistic. More and more people are leaning into conspiracies. Some of them are wild. Some of them are frightening. Some of them are crazy kooky. I'd like to know your spin on all of it. Oh, I can't wait to get into this. Put on a tin hat because we're doing it now. Let's do it. Anita, in front of you, Exhibit A. It looks like a burrito, but it's actually a homemade tin hat that I have made. Have a look in front of you. There's yours. I'm... Excited. It was a.
00:04:45
Speaker 1: Long pause before you said the word excited. Well, I had to find the right word. This is so common in movies and stuff that you're going to wear the tin hat. It does make me wonder where it all came from.
00:05:01
Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, we do a segment on the radio called Tin Hat Tuesday, and I had seen And it was a joke, I thought, sharing their conspiracy theories at a dinner party. You had to dress up as your conspiracy and in front of your friends explain why you believe it. And people had PowerPoint presentations. And I thought it was funny and fun. And did they have to believe it?
00:05:22
Speaker 1: No.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Maybe they did. Maybe they did. A lot of it just looked funny. You had to sell your conspiracy theory. Yeah. And so I thought, let's do this on the radio show. It has gone ballistic. And a lot of it is just pleasurable hearing people Silly so-called conspiracies. But a lot of people, I was very, very surprised, believe this stuff. Here's one that we spoke about that has had some very strange traction about Ellen DeGeneres. Member Anne Hesch.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: This video showing the woman on a stretcher flailing and, according to neighbours, screaming at the time. Authorities say she suffered burns and was taken to the hospital in critical condition.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, she passed away. She did. She'd been involved with Ellen DeGeneres. They'd broken up, but apparently Anne Hesch... was uncovering this incredible pedophile ring. By understanding how human trafficking really works, you can make a difference in the life of someone at risk. Call the National Human Trafficking Hotline. And so, well, this is what it says here, that cannibal Ellen DeGeneres ate Anne Hesch after murdering her.
00:06:30
Speaker 4: Now investigators have confirmed that after Anne's death, Ellen pulled strings to claim her body, storing it in a mansion freezer like some kind of relic. Over the years, Ellen allegedly consumed parts of Anne in deliberate occult ceremonies.
00:06:45
Speaker 2: So Anita, I can see on your face that you're suddenly now a believer. But I need to tell you this, how ludicrous that sounds, you know that. That clip on our socials has had 7 million views. And when we do Tin Hat Tuesday, we get people who believe all kinds of things. There's an American story at the moment, you'll love this one, of a man who claims that he was taken underwater by a pod of dolphins. The lead dolphin was called Gerald. And he made this guy who was an aquatic engineer, made him build a series of structures like condominiums for this colony of dolphins. And then the guy was allowed to leave. And they say it's real because of they helped him breathe underwater. So they've examined this man's lungs when he told his story. And it all checks out, Anita. Does it? You know what?
00:07:41
Speaker 1: I am. Just really delighted that this is the second time that we have talked about dolphins on this podcast.
00:07:46
Speaker 2: That's right. The first time was dolphin sex. That's right. This time it's dolphin condominiums. Because if you're a dolphin, where are you going to live? You need a condominium. Absolutely. So, Anita, this is where I just love doing a podcast with you. You are a forensic psychologist. You are a critical thinker. Why... Are we delving more and more into conspiracy theories?
00:08:13
Speaker 1: Well, let me just first say that they've always been around. And that before we, you know, I do get into some of the research that talks about who tends to go and believe these things, is that in doing surveys, most everybody believes in at least one conspiracy theory. And that if you do believe in one, that you are actually more likely to believe in others.
00:08:38
Speaker 2: Before we get any further, what's the one you believe in?
00:08:42
Speaker 1: When I was looking at this, I was trying to figure out what do I actually believe. And I think currently this whole thing about Epstein, I think that it was portrayed as a conspiracy theory. And now this is one of those strange, rare occurrences where the conspiracy theory actually takes is true, which is actually kind of lends a lot of credence to people who actually believe in them to say, I should probably believe in more of these because this has turned out.
00:09:14
Speaker 2: So I don't know. Do you have one that you particularly believe in? I've got one. I don't know if I should say it out loud, but I'm going to. And I'm sorry that this may offend people. I don't think Donald Trump was shot in the ear.
00:09:26
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker 2: I've heard that. Yeah, as well.
00:09:28
Speaker 1: And I mean, there's a lot of people who sit on both sides of that. So And I don't know where I sit on that.
00:09:34
Speaker 2: But the thing also with the giant cabal of pedophiles, the Epstein scenario, you know, QAnon, I thought they were nutbags. And this is what's so– I wonder if this is why, as you say, more and more people could be leaning in now, is that the biggest conspiracy in the world came true. This is true. So why shouldn't the other things all be true? Why shouldn't Ellen DeGeneres be chomping down on her? ex-girlfriend?
00:10:01
Speaker 1: And it speaks to, I think, our need for that control. Like we are as humans, generally speaking, we don't have a really high tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity. So this gives us a sense of control to say, oh, this is the way it is, you know, that this must be true. And you can kind of see the evolution of how, when you look at the evolution of how conspiracy theories develop, the, you know, the whole thing about Pizzagate and was, you know, I was, there was some research talked about how when the, all the emails about from Hillary Clinton were released, people did these searches, scraping the data to say, you know, what were the words that were in all of these emails. And pizza came up a real, you know, quite a few times. Probably Hillary saying, let's have pizza for dinner, or, you know, what do you want on your pizza, or that.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: And what actually, you know, people started saying, well, pizza must be a code word for pedophilia. And And this is kind of where it starts. And all of a sudden it's, you know, there's... Someone's shooting up a pizza place. Yeah, somebody's shooting up a pizza place. So it's, you know, it is interesting. And I guess what I have seen as, you know, somebody who teaches at a university is, and this really saddens me, is, you know, people's thinking styles that we aren't really taught critical thinking as part of high school very often. and you know put that in with our thinking styles that there's a there's a great book it's one of my favorite books it's called thinking fast and slow and it's by a guy named daniel kahneman and he talks about how we have two main thinking styles and the system one is kind of that that um instinctual very quick um doesn't really rely too much on logic but this is the kind of thing that that you know, helps us survive.
00:12:07
Speaker 2: So if we're.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Walking down an alley and we all of a sudden start getting that, that hinky feeling, like, I'm not sure if I'm safe, I think I'm just going to go and walk out onto the main street again, that that's that system one thinking doesn't really take a lot of thought to, to, to get through it. The system two is actually takes effort. It's that where we, engage our rational brain where we think things through where we use those critical thinking skills and what happens is that we tend to approach most situations with system one thinking because system two is hard and it takes extra effort so when there's a conspiracy theory and it is just intuitively appealing that we just kind of go oh yeah yeah that sounds great yeah I'm just going to use my system one thinking here and we just don't even engage. So there's a number of factors. Part of it is our thinking style. The other piece is that higher need for, as I mentioned, for control, that less tolerance for uncertainty or ambiguity, also like an increased need for belonging as humanity.
00:13:21
Speaker 2: Didn't we find that through all the COVID years, all the conspiracy theories around that? People wanted to think they're the only ones doing the research and they found their community. Yeah, so there is a sense of belonging. You believe that? Well, I believe that too, and so on.
00:13:38
Speaker 1: The interesting thing, and this was the harder part when I was looking at some of the research, is about the personality styles. That it tends to be people who endorse abnormal or unusual experiences, like magical beliefs, beliefs and hallucinations, those kinds of things. Tends to have feelings of superiority. I know the truth kind of thing. They tend to be more suspicious than the average person. And they tend to have belief systems around seeing the world as a dangerous place. The one that is probably the most worrying is that increased sense of antagonism towards the world, which is kind of that exaggerated sense of self, that disregard for the feelings and needs of others.
00:14:24
Speaker 2: And that feeling of persecution.
00:14:25
Speaker 1: Yep. that manipulating others and just kind of a more aggressive stance towards life. So, you know, put that all together, you get the, that personality of somebody who is more likely to go and engage in conspiracy thinking.
00:14:41
Speaker 2: Is anyone worried about all these conspiracy thinkers?
00:14:47
Speaker 1: I think that there is certainly concern about it there. I think it was, you know, a lot of people just think that the, you know, there's people on the edges and, You know, how harmless is it to go and believe that, you know, does it really matter to anybody's lives whether you think Trump was actually shot in the ear or not? And it's probably not going to, your belief or not in it, is not going to probably have an impact. The impact comes when you start having an impact by sharing these and saying, we need to do something about this. So, you know, that pizza gate that you had somebody who starts believing it.
00:15:28
Speaker 2: So, you.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: Know, it engages in it and probably has mental health issues on top of everything else. And then, you know, believes that they need to go in and do something about it.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: What about in the AI world now? I mean, I'm going to say one more thing about President Trump. He's a known liar. So he can tell you that what you think he can validate something that that isn't true or vice versa. But AI, you can see imagery of stuff that isn't real, but you try telling somebody that that's not real. We've always said, being told, believe your eyes. So how do we combat all this if it's going to play into our anxious minds?
00:16:07
Speaker 1: Just on the way here, Amanda, I was reading this article that was saying that they have created this AI MAGA woman who was– is kind of being portrayed as the ultimate woman, ultimate MAGA woman, and that she has been AI generated.
00:16:28
Speaker 2: And she's there almost being like a military PR person in high heels, short skirt, militarized, posing with Donald Trump, thumbs up for the military. She's not real. She's not real.
00:16:40
Speaker 1: And so, but when I read this, I was like, do I know that this isn't real? Do I know that this is real? And it's easy, again, to engage that system one thinking and going, that must be real. Isn't that crazy? What do we need to do about it? And kind of starting to raise the stress levels, the arousal levels, and just getting more and more upset. Or you can kind of go, okay, let's look at the source of this information.
00:17:10
Speaker 2: Let's look at it.
00:17:12
Speaker 1: What is the function of that behavior? Why would they be actually... you know, what is the purpose of having an AI-generated ideal MAGA woman? Like, is this, again, is this just distraction? You know, what is going on?
00:17:26
Speaker 2: But it has been shown to be AI. Yeah, that's interesting.
00:17:31
Speaker 1: Like, I didn't know that when I saw that, and so I was really engaged in that process of saying, you know, what is this about? And it's, you know, I just look at this, and it is really hard to kind of, get to the point of saying, what is true anymore?
00:17:48
Speaker 2: How do I do this?
00:17:50
Speaker 1: And I can feel sometimes that my own tolerance for this uncertainty, what is true? What is going on? How do we manage this? Just gets kind of really elevated. And it's just easier sometimes to say, oh, the world's a crazy place. All these things are happening.
00:18:06
Speaker 2: I don't care. Is it a way of disengaging? Because if you don't know what to believe, Don't get invested in anything.
00:18:14
Speaker 1: Just, you know, it's either don't believe anything or maybe it's I believe everything. I don't know how to really engage with a lot of what's coming out there. And so, you know, for me, you know, part of my answer is to kind of limit my social media engagement. But, you know, it is kind of an interesting thought process of how do you engage when you do hear these conspiracy theories? Because it must be interesting to doing the radio show, Amanda, and hearing all of these and kind of, you know, some of them, you know, might be just kind of gives you a giggle, but some of them must kind of engage every once in a while.
00:18:51
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. And some of them, you know, you just, some of them to me seem ludicrous. Some of them you go, yeah, I can see why you'd think that. Absolutely. I think a lot of us have become the person that says, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but, and I never thought I'd even be saying those words. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, I want to get the builder to come and do my condo after he's finished at Gerald's underwater sea. Absolutely.
00:19:14
Speaker 1: Well, why wouldn't you, you know, real estate in Sydney is pretty expensive. What are the building regs you think? The codes would be out there, wouldn't they?
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: So, I mean, when I, when I look at this, Amanda, I, you know, it's interesting as we don't know a lot about how conspiracy theories are, um, you know, are researched. And a lot of the research that we're doing are on what we call weird uh populations which is western educated what is the i uh industrialized rich and democratic that's what weird stands for oh okay so we don't know.
00:19:56
Speaker 2: Like if you lived in rural india are you a conspiracy theorist.
00:19:59
Speaker 1: Are you and and what would be the conspiracy theories that theories that people from India engage in. It might be very, very different. So there may be a lot of cultural elements to this that we really don't know about. I think that the thing we all have to educate ourselves on, though, is that when we encounter them, how do you react to them? So, I mean, you are doing this as a radio segment, so you really don't have to engage with it. But if you were out on a Friday night and You were talking to somebody and somebody wanted to pull you aside to give you their latest conspiracy theory that they think that you should be really worried about. You know, how do we engage with that? I would just say, oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for telling me that because I don't think you can take it on.
00:20:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker 2: You don't want to antagonize anybody. It's like you sit in the back of a cab or whatever that cab driver wants to tell you, go, fair enough, mate.
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that that is so wise because really the research evidence really proves agrees with you they basically say use empathy avoid confrontation and just keep the dialogue going if it's somebody that you need to engage with so you know if it's if it's a family member friend that kind of thing absolutely but if it's you know if it's the uber driver you know it's it hopefully it's going to be a short trip and you can just get out of there jumping out just as the car is slowing down you're jumping out just to avoid it yeah so.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: Are you finding more and more of this? As I said, thanks to this segment, my algorithm is now filled with new conspiracy theories. Yesterday I read that Jimi Hendrix faked his own death but has come back as Morgan Freeman. I didn't know that, Amanda. Are you just being polite to me, Anita? Get out of my Uber. Don't engage. Get out. Don't engage. Don't engage. Well, look, good luck to everybody. Let us know what your conspiracy theories are. I mean, someone phoned yesterday and said, why don't we hear about the Bermuda Triangle anymore? Why don't we? Well, I think Brendan said because we have better navigation now and the planes don't go missing as much.
00:22:13
Speaker 1: But certainly as a kid, I remember that they had a whole bunch of– documentaries, you know, terrifying about the Bermuda Triangle, you know, the Aztec lines about, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff. And I remember thinking how amazing these things were. But then you kind of actually, if there was any, you know, thoughtful examination, you kind of go, oh, actually, this doesn't really make sense.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: Someone told me once that all the UFO viewings, people who say that they've been taken up into spaceships, etc., they've all spoken about it in terms of the technology of their own time. If you were taken up in the 50s, there were Bakelite knobs. If you went up a bit later on, there was lasers. No one has been able to detail what they saw from a futuristic perspective. It's always through the lens of the science you know today. I think that's really fascinating, actually. I never knew that. I like that. And I think that what I.
00:23:16
Speaker 1: If I was the president of the world, that I think what I would engage in is trying to get people educated in general, like through schools and everything, and just those critical thinking skills, and teaching people how to be skeptical.
00:23:30
Speaker 2: Because I think, I actually just.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: Had this conversation a little while ago with some students about what's, you know, there's nothing wrong with being skeptical. Skeptical is actually saying, I'm going to hold my opinion until I get some facts. Versus I'm just going to be critical of this or I'm just going to be a believer. I'm actually going to be skeptical. And I really love that we can, as scientists, that's where we should be sitting is just in a skeptical mindset.
00:23:58
Speaker 2: How do you explain those crop circles in your pubes, though? I know exactly how you'll explain those. You're in a dodgy razor. An unfortunate accident.
00:24:17
Speaker 1: Oh, my friend.
00:24:18
Speaker 2: Shall we get to some glimmers? Let's get to some glimmers. I had a brilliant, brilliant glimmer. I have worked... on the radio with Brendan Jones for 21 years and I've known him for even longer. His daughter is about 28 years old and I've known her since she was four. She got married on the weekend and it was so beautiful. She got married at Taronga Zoo in front of the giraffe enclosure. And it was incredible. The giraffes, you couldn't see any humans in the enclosure, just giraffes wandering back and forth, swinging their necks around. And then when I saw my mate Brendan walk his daughter down the aisle, it was so emotional. It was just the most beautiful wedding. And both my sons were there and it was just great. And to dance, we spent the night dancing to be at this fabulously important moment in life. Jonesy's family's life. And then to spend the night dancing with my kids, it was just something you want to keep in amber. What a brilliant surge of emotions all around. It was lovely.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: Oh, that is such a, and just the thought, I have this picture of, you know, Taronga Zoo is such an amazing place anyway, but just to go and have a wedding set in that In that place and just the view, the everything.
00:25:43
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
00:25:43
Speaker 1: Amazing.
00:25:44
Speaker 2: As Jonesy says, his daughter's always loved the zoo. It would have been cheaper for him if she'd always loved the RSL. Here's your mixed grill. Get on with it. Go, Brendan. How about you?
00:25:56
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious, Amanda, about how you navigated this issue. So this last weekend... it was potty trading time for my grandson. And he got to run around for three days, basically, without a diaper. And you just gently remind him, do you need to use the potty? Is this a new way of doing it? This is the new way of doing it. And apparently, like, there's a whole process to it.
00:26:25
Speaker 2: And it was really good. Like, he was really ready for it. So it worked really well.
00:26:31
Speaker 1: But I was thinking when it was time for my boy's, I threw a few Cheerios into the toilet and made them go and aim.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: Oh, so they didn't have to eat them. They didn't have to eat them. No, it was a game. Popping for Cheerios. Popping for Cheerios.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: It was, I mean, it was this hilarious, you know, fun game and they, you know, engaged in the game and then they, you know, basically found that they were toilet trained pretty quickly.
00:26:55
Speaker 2: That's pretty good. I hear that people use ping pong balls as well in the loo to make the boys aim at that. That's a good one. Liam will hate me telling this, but he, like the first few weeks when we were trying to toilet train him, he did a number two in the loom. We thought, oh, toilet training. Done. He didn't do one again for three years. And he would sit on a potty to the point where. But he did do. He did. He was the most constipated child of all time. But we had to, even when we went to visit my dad in Queensland, we had to buy a potty. It would be a little fish and chip shop or something. And he'd have to go to the toilet. And we said, well, you've got to learn to go to the toilet here. And he'd insist. He'd hold on until we got home. One day I came home. There'd been some sort of disaster. We had a bean bag and another. He put a bean bag, cushions all on top of each other. He was sitting on the top of that on his potty. And, well, it all came a-tumbling down.
00:27:47
Speaker 1: I can imagine that, yeah, that didn't work so well.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: And anyway, one day, you know, eventually you know that eventually they're going to have to learn to use the toilet, and they do, and what a miracle. What a miracle. What a miracle. But it is funny.
00:28:00
Speaker 1: I was just thinking what a lovely thought that, you know, generation by generation, each generation has their own.
00:28:06
Speaker 2: Idea about how this happens. And I just loved it.
00:28:10
Speaker 1: It was incredibly successful for, you know, Logan to go and learn how to get potty trained.
00:28:17
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't suggest that adults walk around with no pants on at work, just hoping they can use the toilet. That's right.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:24
Speaker 2: Not recommended elsewhere, right? No, keep it in your home. Keep it in the home. Well, Anita, thank you. Thank you, Amanda. I'm about to go and put my tin hat on and see what else I can find. Let's do that.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: You do that because I think it's important work that you're doing out there, Amanda.
00:28:41
Speaker 2: When I have my tin hat on, it heats up your head like I'm making garlic bread. I'm prepared to take it for the team. A little bit of garlic butter there. Well, lots of love to you, and I'll see you next week.
00:28:52
Speaker 1: Love you.
00:28:52
Speaker 4: Bye.
00:28:53
Speaker 3: Bye.
Speaker 1: This podcast is for general information only and should not be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
00:00:19
Speaker 2: Well, hello, I'm Amanda Keller. And I'm Anita McGregor. And welcome to Double A Chattery. Can I start by saying thank you to everyone for the beautiful response that the teacups have given us and me in light of me saying how hard I'd found my birthday and that glimmer I had where a woman, a stranger in the park, turned my whole perception of my woe is me because Harley wasn't well on my birthday. She completely shifted that for me. And we got so many similar responses. Comments from people. People are just going through stuff everywhere you look, aren't they? It's that idea. Was it Sonder? Sonder.
00:01:03
Speaker 1: You just don't know what's going on in somebody else's life.
00:01:06
Speaker 2: Everyone is going through a complex life. Yep. And how we all get out of bed and just get on with it. Congratulations to anyone who's just keeping it together, I reckon. Can I just read out some of these? Someone, Nat Adams says, Thanks, Amanda. My birthday's tomorrow. My husband of 27 years has been diagnosed with cancer. This is what I needed to hear today. Oh, there's this one from Nicole. Remember, you're not selfish. Because I felt bad berating, in my mind, berating Harley for not being himself on my birthday. She said, remember, you're not selfish. It's okay to feel the way you did. You have so much strength in the way you handled it. Sometimes total strangers hold space for us. There's not enough holding space for others. You are meant to meet this wonderful human. Be kind to yourself. And Anita, I need to thank you too, because you do, oh, I don't want to cry again. You always hold space for me. And even though you're so-called psychology.
00:02:07
Speaker 1: From the Acme School of Fine Psychology and Bartending, I will.
00:02:12
Speaker 2: Say, even though you're a very experienced forensic psychologist, You let me just sprout what I feel like sprouting. You just listen. And I'm very, very grateful. I just read one more of these. This is from Jan who said, her husband has progressive supranuclear palsy in the same family as Harley's illness. No treatment available. I saw him lose himself and I lost myself as the person across from me was not Ray, just a shell. I know what it is to be angry at the world and bereft at the same time. It was heartbreaking to see his loss. And yet he was my husband of more than 45 years who I loved dearly. I send you love every day, even though I don't know you'd be as strong as you can be. You know, these people, there's a story after story of people who are going through exactly the same thing. Can I just read one more? I needed this glimmer today. This is from Carmelina. It's my birthday today and my Paul has a progressive brain tumour and he's had a bad day. I've had a reframe too. He's still such a good man.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: Isn't that lovely? I get to read one too from All.
00:03:14
Speaker 2: Right, Anita. Can I? Thanks. From Linda Eagles.
00:03:18
Speaker 1: And I think that this is true, that she said there's angels on this earth that offer such insight right when you need it. It's not a coincidence. I do think that we do find people who help us find the way at the time when we need it. It's serendipitous, and it's beautiful, and it's just, you know, what a blessing that you had that.
00:03:40
Speaker 2: At that moment. And I'm glad I was open to it. I could easily just have picked up my dog poo and walked on. Instead, I left it there for the council arrangers. Well done. be good all the time. You can't. You can't.
00:03:53
Speaker 1: 50%.
00:03:53
Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing to aim for. Well, today, Anita, I'm going to take you into the world of conspiracy theories. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there's a phrase you hear a lot, but we've done a segment on our radio show called Tin Hat Tuesday that has gone ballistic. More and more people are leaning into conspiracies. Some of them are wild. Some of them are frightening. Some of them are crazy kooky. I'd like to know your spin on all of it. Oh, I can't wait to get into this. Put on a tin hat because we're doing it now. Let's do it. Anita, in front of you, Exhibit A. It looks like a burrito, but it's actually a homemade tin hat that I have made. Have a look in front of you. There's yours. I'm... Excited. It was a.
00:04:45
Speaker 1: Long pause before you said the word excited. Well, I had to find the right word. This is so common in movies and stuff that you're going to wear the tin hat. It does make me wonder where it all came from.
00:05:01
Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, we do a segment on the radio called Tin Hat Tuesday, and I had seen And it was a joke, I thought, sharing their conspiracy theories at a dinner party. You had to dress up as your conspiracy and in front of your friends explain why you believe it. And people had PowerPoint presentations. And I thought it was funny and fun. And did they have to believe it?
00:05:22
Speaker 1: No.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Maybe they did. Maybe they did. A lot of it just looked funny. You had to sell your conspiracy theory. Yeah. And so I thought, let's do this on the radio show. It has gone ballistic. And a lot of it is just pleasurable hearing people Silly so-called conspiracies. But a lot of people, I was very, very surprised, believe this stuff. Here's one that we spoke about that has had some very strange traction about Ellen DeGeneres. Member Anne Hesch.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: This video showing the woman on a stretcher flailing and, according to neighbours, screaming at the time. Authorities say she suffered burns and was taken to the hospital in critical condition.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, she passed away. She did. She'd been involved with Ellen DeGeneres. They'd broken up, but apparently Anne Hesch... was uncovering this incredible pedophile ring. By understanding how human trafficking really works, you can make a difference in the life of someone at risk. Call the National Human Trafficking Hotline. And so, well, this is what it says here, that cannibal Ellen DeGeneres ate Anne Hesch after murdering her.
00:06:30
Speaker 4: Now investigators have confirmed that after Anne's death, Ellen pulled strings to claim her body, storing it in a mansion freezer like some kind of relic. Over the years, Ellen allegedly consumed parts of Anne in deliberate occult ceremonies.
00:06:45
Speaker 2: So Anita, I can see on your face that you're suddenly now a believer. But I need to tell you this, how ludicrous that sounds, you know that. That clip on our socials has had 7 million views. And when we do Tin Hat Tuesday, we get people who believe all kinds of things. There's an American story at the moment, you'll love this one, of a man who claims that he was taken underwater by a pod of dolphins. The lead dolphin was called Gerald. And he made this guy who was an aquatic engineer, made him build a series of structures like condominiums for this colony of dolphins. And then the guy was allowed to leave. And they say it's real because of they helped him breathe underwater. So they've examined this man's lungs when he told his story. And it all checks out, Anita. Does it? You know what?
00:07:41
Speaker 1: I am. Just really delighted that this is the second time that we have talked about dolphins on this podcast.
00:07:46
Speaker 2: That's right. The first time was dolphin sex. That's right. This time it's dolphin condominiums. Because if you're a dolphin, where are you going to live? You need a condominium. Absolutely. So, Anita, this is where I just love doing a podcast with you. You are a forensic psychologist. You are a critical thinker. Why... Are we delving more and more into conspiracy theories?
00:08:13
Speaker 1: Well, let me just first say that they've always been around. And that before we, you know, I do get into some of the research that talks about who tends to go and believe these things, is that in doing surveys, most everybody believes in at least one conspiracy theory. And that if you do believe in one, that you are actually more likely to believe in others.
00:08:38
Speaker 2: Before we get any further, what's the one you believe in?
00:08:42
Speaker 1: When I was looking at this, I was trying to figure out what do I actually believe. And I think currently this whole thing about Epstein, I think that it was portrayed as a conspiracy theory. And now this is one of those strange, rare occurrences where the conspiracy theory actually takes is true, which is actually kind of lends a lot of credence to people who actually believe in them to say, I should probably believe in more of these because this has turned out.
00:09:14
Speaker 2: So I don't know. Do you have one that you particularly believe in? I've got one. I don't know if I should say it out loud, but I'm going to. And I'm sorry that this may offend people. I don't think Donald Trump was shot in the ear.
00:09:26
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker 2: I've heard that. Yeah, as well.
00:09:28
Speaker 1: And I mean, there's a lot of people who sit on both sides of that. So And I don't know where I sit on that.
00:09:34
Speaker 2: But the thing also with the giant cabal of pedophiles, the Epstein scenario, you know, QAnon, I thought they were nutbags. And this is what's so– I wonder if this is why, as you say, more and more people could be leaning in now, is that the biggest conspiracy in the world came true. This is true. So why shouldn't the other things all be true? Why shouldn't Ellen DeGeneres be chomping down on her? ex-girlfriend?
00:10:01
Speaker 1: And it speaks to, I think, our need for that control. Like we are as humans, generally speaking, we don't have a really high tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity. So this gives us a sense of control to say, oh, this is the way it is, you know, that this must be true. And you can kind of see the evolution of how, when you look at the evolution of how conspiracy theories develop, the, you know, the whole thing about Pizzagate and was, you know, I was, there was some research talked about how when the, all the emails about from Hillary Clinton were released, people did these searches, scraping the data to say, you know, what were the words that were in all of these emails. And pizza came up a real, you know, quite a few times. Probably Hillary saying, let's have pizza for dinner, or, you know, what do you want on your pizza, or that.
00:10:58
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: And what actually, you know, people started saying, well, pizza must be a code word for pedophilia. And And this is kind of where it starts. And all of a sudden it's, you know, there's... Someone's shooting up a pizza place. Yeah, somebody's shooting up a pizza place. So it's, you know, it is interesting. And I guess what I have seen as, you know, somebody who teaches at a university is, and this really saddens me, is, you know, people's thinking styles that we aren't really taught critical thinking as part of high school very often. and you know put that in with our thinking styles that there's a there's a great book it's one of my favorite books it's called thinking fast and slow and it's by a guy named daniel kahneman and he talks about how we have two main thinking styles and the system one is kind of that that um instinctual very quick um doesn't really rely too much on logic but this is the kind of thing that that you know, helps us survive.
00:12:07
Speaker 2: So if we're.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Walking down an alley and we all of a sudden start getting that, that hinky feeling, like, I'm not sure if I'm safe, I think I'm just going to go and walk out onto the main street again, that that's that system one thinking doesn't really take a lot of thought to, to, to get through it. The system two is actually takes effort. It's that where we, engage our rational brain where we think things through where we use those critical thinking skills and what happens is that we tend to approach most situations with system one thinking because system two is hard and it takes extra effort so when there's a conspiracy theory and it is just intuitively appealing that we just kind of go oh yeah yeah that sounds great yeah I'm just going to use my system one thinking here and we just don't even engage. So there's a number of factors. Part of it is our thinking style. The other piece is that higher need for, as I mentioned, for control, that less tolerance for uncertainty or ambiguity, also like an increased need for belonging as humanity.
00:13:21
Speaker 2: Didn't we find that through all the COVID years, all the conspiracy theories around that? People wanted to think they're the only ones doing the research and they found their community. Yeah, so there is a sense of belonging. You believe that? Well, I believe that too, and so on.
00:13:38
Speaker 1: The interesting thing, and this was the harder part when I was looking at some of the research, is about the personality styles. That it tends to be people who endorse abnormal or unusual experiences, like magical beliefs, beliefs and hallucinations, those kinds of things. Tends to have feelings of superiority. I know the truth kind of thing. They tend to be more suspicious than the average person. And they tend to have belief systems around seeing the world as a dangerous place. The one that is probably the most worrying is that increased sense of antagonism towards the world, which is kind of that exaggerated sense of self, that disregard for the feelings and needs of others.
00:14:24
Speaker 2: And that feeling of persecution.
00:14:25
Speaker 1: Yep. that manipulating others and just kind of a more aggressive stance towards life. So, you know, put that all together, you get the, that personality of somebody who is more likely to go and engage in conspiracy thinking.
00:14:41
Speaker 2: Is anyone worried about all these conspiracy thinkers?
00:14:47
Speaker 1: I think that there is certainly concern about it there. I think it was, you know, a lot of people just think that the, you know, there's people on the edges and, You know, how harmless is it to go and believe that, you know, does it really matter to anybody's lives whether you think Trump was actually shot in the ear or not? And it's probably not going to, your belief or not in it, is not going to probably have an impact. The impact comes when you start having an impact by sharing these and saying, we need to do something about this. So, you know, that pizza gate that you had somebody who starts believing it.
00:15:28
Speaker 2: So, you.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: Know, it engages in it and probably has mental health issues on top of everything else. And then, you know, believes that they need to go in and do something about it.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: What about in the AI world now? I mean, I'm going to say one more thing about President Trump. He's a known liar. So he can tell you that what you think he can validate something that that isn't true or vice versa. But AI, you can see imagery of stuff that isn't real, but you try telling somebody that that's not real. We've always said, being told, believe your eyes. So how do we combat all this if it's going to play into our anxious minds?
00:16:07
Speaker 1: Just on the way here, Amanda, I was reading this article that was saying that they have created this AI MAGA woman who was– is kind of being portrayed as the ultimate woman, ultimate MAGA woman, and that she has been AI generated.
00:16:28
Speaker 2: And she's there almost being like a military PR person in high heels, short skirt, militarized, posing with Donald Trump, thumbs up for the military. She's not real. She's not real.
00:16:40
Speaker 1: And so, but when I read this, I was like, do I know that this isn't real? Do I know that this is real? And it's easy, again, to engage that system one thinking and going, that must be real. Isn't that crazy? What do we need to do about it? And kind of starting to raise the stress levels, the arousal levels, and just getting more and more upset. Or you can kind of go, okay, let's look at the source of this information.
00:17:10
Speaker 2: Let's look at it.
00:17:12
Speaker 1: What is the function of that behavior? Why would they be actually... you know, what is the purpose of having an AI-generated ideal MAGA woman? Like, is this, again, is this just distraction? You know, what is going on?
00:17:26
Speaker 2: But it has been shown to be AI. Yeah, that's interesting.
00:17:31
Speaker 1: Like, I didn't know that when I saw that, and so I was really engaged in that process of saying, you know, what is this about? And it's, you know, I just look at this, and it is really hard to kind of, get to the point of saying, what is true anymore?
00:17:48
Speaker 2: How do I do this?
00:17:50
Speaker 1: And I can feel sometimes that my own tolerance for this uncertainty, what is true? What is going on? How do we manage this? Just gets kind of really elevated. And it's just easier sometimes to say, oh, the world's a crazy place. All these things are happening.
00:18:06
Speaker 2: I don't care. Is it a way of disengaging? Because if you don't know what to believe, Don't get invested in anything.
00:18:14
Speaker 1: Just, you know, it's either don't believe anything or maybe it's I believe everything. I don't know how to really engage with a lot of what's coming out there. And so, you know, for me, you know, part of my answer is to kind of limit my social media engagement. But, you know, it is kind of an interesting thought process of how do you engage when you do hear these conspiracy theories? Because it must be interesting to doing the radio show, Amanda, and hearing all of these and kind of, you know, some of them, you know, might be just kind of gives you a giggle, but some of them must kind of engage every once in a while.
00:18:51
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. And some of them, you know, you just, some of them to me seem ludicrous. Some of them you go, yeah, I can see why you'd think that. Absolutely. I think a lot of us have become the person that says, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but, and I never thought I'd even be saying those words. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, I want to get the builder to come and do my condo after he's finished at Gerald's underwater sea. Absolutely.
00:19:14
Speaker 1: Well, why wouldn't you, you know, real estate in Sydney is pretty expensive. What are the building regs you think? The codes would be out there, wouldn't they?
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: So, I mean, when I, when I look at this, Amanda, I, you know, it's interesting as we don't know a lot about how conspiracy theories are, um, you know, are researched. And a lot of the research that we're doing are on what we call weird uh populations which is western educated what is the i uh industrialized rich and democratic that's what weird stands for oh okay so we don't know.
00:19:56
Speaker 2: Like if you lived in rural india are you a conspiracy theorist.
00:19:59
Speaker 1: Are you and and what would be the conspiracy theories that theories that people from India engage in. It might be very, very different. So there may be a lot of cultural elements to this that we really don't know about. I think that the thing we all have to educate ourselves on, though, is that when we encounter them, how do you react to them? So, I mean, you are doing this as a radio segment, so you really don't have to engage with it. But if you were out on a Friday night and You were talking to somebody and somebody wanted to pull you aside to give you their latest conspiracy theory that they think that you should be really worried about. You know, how do we engage with that? I would just say, oh, that's so interesting. Thank you for telling me that because I don't think you can take it on.
00:20:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker 2: You don't want to antagonize anybody. It's like you sit in the back of a cab or whatever that cab driver wants to tell you, go, fair enough, mate.
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that that is so wise because really the research evidence really proves agrees with you they basically say use empathy avoid confrontation and just keep the dialogue going if it's somebody that you need to engage with so you know if it's if it's a family member friend that kind of thing absolutely but if it's you know if it's the uber driver you know it's it hopefully it's going to be a short trip and you can just get out of there jumping out just as the car is slowing down you're jumping out just to avoid it yeah so.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: Are you finding more and more of this? As I said, thanks to this segment, my algorithm is now filled with new conspiracy theories. Yesterday I read that Jimi Hendrix faked his own death but has come back as Morgan Freeman. I didn't know that, Amanda. Are you just being polite to me, Anita? Get out of my Uber. Don't engage. Get out. Don't engage. Don't engage. Well, look, good luck to everybody. Let us know what your conspiracy theories are. I mean, someone phoned yesterday and said, why don't we hear about the Bermuda Triangle anymore? Why don't we? Well, I think Brendan said because we have better navigation now and the planes don't go missing as much.
00:22:13
Speaker 1: But certainly as a kid, I remember that they had a whole bunch of– documentaries, you know, terrifying about the Bermuda Triangle, you know, the Aztec lines about, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff. And I remember thinking how amazing these things were. But then you kind of actually, if there was any, you know, thoughtful examination, you kind of go, oh, actually, this doesn't really make sense.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: Someone told me once that all the UFO viewings, people who say that they've been taken up into spaceships, etc., they've all spoken about it in terms of the technology of their own time. If you were taken up in the 50s, there were Bakelite knobs. If you went up a bit later on, there was lasers. No one has been able to detail what they saw from a futuristic perspective. It's always through the lens of the science you know today. I think that's really fascinating, actually. I never knew that. I like that. And I think that what I.
00:23:16
Speaker 1: If I was the president of the world, that I think what I would engage in is trying to get people educated in general, like through schools and everything, and just those critical thinking skills, and teaching people how to be skeptical.
00:23:30
Speaker 2: Because I think, I actually just.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: Had this conversation a little while ago with some students about what's, you know, there's nothing wrong with being skeptical. Skeptical is actually saying, I'm going to hold my opinion until I get some facts. Versus I'm just going to be critical of this or I'm just going to be a believer. I'm actually going to be skeptical. And I really love that we can, as scientists, that's where we should be sitting is just in a skeptical mindset.
00:23:58
Speaker 2: How do you explain those crop circles in your pubes, though? I know exactly how you'll explain those. You're in a dodgy razor. An unfortunate accident.
00:24:17
Speaker 1: Oh, my friend.
00:24:18
Speaker 2: Shall we get to some glimmers? Let's get to some glimmers. I had a brilliant, brilliant glimmer. I have worked... on the radio with Brendan Jones for 21 years and I've known him for even longer. His daughter is about 28 years old and I've known her since she was four. She got married on the weekend and it was so beautiful. She got married at Taronga Zoo in front of the giraffe enclosure. And it was incredible. The giraffes, you couldn't see any humans in the enclosure, just giraffes wandering back and forth, swinging their necks around. And then when I saw my mate Brendan walk his daughter down the aisle, it was so emotional. It was just the most beautiful wedding. And both my sons were there and it was just great. And to dance, we spent the night dancing to be at this fabulously important moment in life. Jonesy's family's life. And then to spend the night dancing with my kids, it was just something you want to keep in amber. What a brilliant surge of emotions all around. It was lovely.
00:25:27
Speaker 1: Oh, that is such a, and just the thought, I have this picture of, you know, Taronga Zoo is such an amazing place anyway, but just to go and have a wedding set in that In that place and just the view, the everything.
00:25:43
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
00:25:43
Speaker 1: Amazing.
00:25:44
Speaker 2: As Jonesy says, his daughter's always loved the zoo. It would have been cheaper for him if she'd always loved the RSL. Here's your mixed grill. Get on with it. Go, Brendan. How about you?
00:25:56
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious, Amanda, about how you navigated this issue. So this last weekend... it was potty trading time for my grandson. And he got to run around for three days, basically, without a diaper. And you just gently remind him, do you need to use the potty? Is this a new way of doing it? This is the new way of doing it. And apparently, like, there's a whole process to it.
00:26:25
Speaker 2: And it was really good. Like, he was really ready for it. So it worked really well.
00:26:31
Speaker 1: But I was thinking when it was time for my boy's, I threw a few Cheerios into the toilet and made them go and aim.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: Oh, so they didn't have to eat them. They didn't have to eat them. No, it was a game. Popping for Cheerios. Popping for Cheerios.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: It was, I mean, it was this hilarious, you know, fun game and they, you know, engaged in the game and then they, you know, basically found that they were toilet trained pretty quickly.
00:26:55
Speaker 2: That's pretty good. I hear that people use ping pong balls as well in the loo to make the boys aim at that. That's a good one. Liam will hate me telling this, but he, like the first few weeks when we were trying to toilet train him, he did a number two in the loom. We thought, oh, toilet training. Done. He didn't do one again for three years. And he would sit on a potty to the point where. But he did do. He did. He was the most constipated child of all time. But we had to, even when we went to visit my dad in Queensland, we had to buy a potty. It would be a little fish and chip shop or something. And he'd have to go to the toilet. And we said, well, you've got to learn to go to the toilet here. And he'd insist. He'd hold on until we got home. One day I came home. There'd been some sort of disaster. We had a bean bag and another. He put a bean bag, cushions all on top of each other. He was sitting on the top of that on his potty. And, well, it all came a-tumbling down.
00:27:47
Speaker 1: I can imagine that, yeah, that didn't work so well.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: And anyway, one day, you know, eventually you know that eventually they're going to have to learn to use the toilet, and they do, and what a miracle. What a miracle. What a miracle. But it is funny.
00:28:00
Speaker 1: I was just thinking what a lovely thought that, you know, generation by generation, each generation has their own.
00:28:06
Speaker 2: Idea about how this happens. And I just loved it.
00:28:10
Speaker 1: It was incredibly successful for, you know, Logan to go and learn how to get potty trained.
00:28:17
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't suggest that adults walk around with no pants on at work, just hoping they can use the toilet. That's right.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:24
Speaker 2: Not recommended elsewhere, right? No, keep it in your home. Keep it in the home. Well, Anita, thank you. Thank you, Amanda. I'm about to go and put my tin hat on and see what else I can find. Let's do that.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: You do that because I think it's important work that you're doing out there, Amanda.
00:28:41
Speaker 2: When I have my tin hat on, it heats up your head like I'm making garlic bread. I'm prepared to take it for the team. A little bit of garlic butter there. Well, lots of love to you, and I'll see you next week.
00:28:52
Speaker 1: Love you.
00:28:52
Speaker 4: Bye.
00:28:53
Speaker 3: Bye.
