Understanding School Referendums With Kevin Krutzik and Dan Tjernagel

Eleanor Corbin: Welcome to the Peninsula Pulse Podcast. My name is Eleanor Corbin, and today I am joined by Superintendent Dan Tjernagel from the Sturgeon Bay School District and Superintendent Kevin Krutzick from the Southern Door School District. Now, voters in these two s school districts will notice in on their November ballots that they will be voting for an operational referendum, which allows school districts to ex exceed the revenue limit that is allowed to them by the state. and it is something that school districts must go to their voters every few years and and ask for and must be approved by voters. And this time around we've got two school districts that are asking their voters to consider a referendum. And since this is something that that happens fairly frequently in our community, most in fact, all five of our school districts are currently under an operating referendum right now of some kind, So since it's something that every voter in the county is going to come across at least one point or another, we thought it would be a good idea to bring the two of you on here to discuss not only what referendums are, but but why you as school districts need them or use them. can you explain to me maybe functionally how a referendum allows you as a school to access more funding?
Dan Tjernagel: as we talk and even our board talks, it's good to remind ourselves and our community of the different types of referenda, right? And you talked already, Eleanor, about it being a non-recurring, right? So taking one step back from that, there are operational referenda and there are capital referenda, right? And so we're talking operational today, right? We're not talking about the capital, which is where normally the district right, borrows bonds, if you will, right, to be able to build a new school or what have you, right? So
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: that's the capital referendum. Southern Door had one recently, we had one recently, we're both still paying on that. That's not what is on the ballot this November. And then as you teed it up nicely, the operational referenda, really there are two kinds of operational referenda. One is the recurring, that's that was not quite as common. Gibraltar has some of those on the books in the county as far as local context, where once that happens, that impacts kind of in into the future. And then non-recurring, where it's just a specific period of time. Like in our case, we're talking about a five-year educational programming, non-recurring referenda. And again, not speaking for Southern Dorber, right, Kevin, you guys are looking at a three-year this time, right?
Kevin Krutzik: Correct. Yeah. Ours is a three year non recurring operational referendum. Basically, like you said, exactly covering what you're talking about, the day to day expenses, staffing, academic programs, student services, operational costs, not brick and mortar, not building anything adding on, anything like that. not anything to the infrastructure of the campus.
Dan Tjernagel: although locally we talk about that operational or in Sturgeon Bay, they use that educational programming operational referendum. Some
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: communities in the state, including in northeast Wisconsin, would talk about this as a revenue limit override referendum, right? Where the state going
Eleanor Corbin: Right.
Dan Tjernagel: all the way back, right, revenue limits back to nineteen ninety-three, right, there is Some things where every district is kind of locked into its own level based on if it was a higher or lower spending district back in nineteen ninety-three. And although
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: I was not in Door County at that time, nor do I think Kevin, you or Eleanor, right, any of us were at that time.
Eleanor Corbin: No.
Kevin Krutzik: No.
Dan Tjernagel: my my sense from our fairly conservative communities in many ways is that Southern Door and Sturgeon Bay would have been low spending districts. And because
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: the fact that they were low spending districts at that time. Which isn't necessarily a d a bad thing at all, just to be clear with people,
Eleanor Corbin: Sure. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: right? But now, from nineteen ninety-three to now, as that revenue limit piece has moved forward, it's still tied to the lower spending limit of nineteen ninety-three, whereas maybe some districts elsewhere in the state were not nearly as conservative, spend much more
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: liberal spending to be honest, with projects they were doing, and now in some ways one could argue have been rewarded rather than penalized over the years. So Back to that question about the referendum. I don't know what the exact number is, Kevin, if you recall. I think it's around 70 questions on the ballot statewide, I believe, for November third.
Kevin Krutzik: Correct.
Dan Tjernagel: Right, where the voters in those different communities have the ability to approve a revenue limit override of a certain amount. For that period of time, like you said, Eleanor, right? Three years or five years
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: in this case between our two communities, or the ability to say we're not going to approve that revenue limit override, in which case then that revenue limit authority from the state of Wisconsin continues at the kind of pre-calculated level.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah, and I actually I think that's some really good context, Dan, that I I am and I'm quoting this off the top of my head, but something like eighty two percent of school districts in Wisconsin have at some point had to go to an operational referendum or have chosen to go to an operational referendum to exceed their revenue limit. so this isn't something that's isolated to Door County by any means. It's pretty statewide. so and I know both of you have worked in in school districts outside of Door County, so maybe you can bring some of that experience in too, but but But why why are school districts kind of in this position where they need to exceed the revenue limit that's given to them?
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah, I th I think one of the reasons and I'll let Dan obviously he's got more experience than I do in this area, but I think one of the reasons that always sticks out to me is since from nineteen ninety-three, what Dan was talking about when the the revenue limits came into effect up until two thousand and nine, that those revenue limits adjusted with inflation. And then since two
Eleanor Corbin: Mm.
Kevin Krutzik: thousand nine they have not adjusted with inflation. And information that I received from W W A S B O Osbo is that
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: if it would have kept pace with inflation since 2009, school districts would receive, like Southern Door would receive $3,500 more per student, which if we
Eleanor Corbin: Got it.
Kevin Krutzik: have about a thousand students, that's $3.5 million per year extra that we would be getting if that would have kept pace with inflation. And if you look at the asks that our board and our district have been asking our taxpayers, has been right around that same exact amount. So Again, that that's that's kinda where
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Kevin Krutzik: we justify those amounts by saying, like, look, if it would have just been adjusted for inflation, technically, theoretically, we wouldn't have to go to the taxpayers and ask for these operational referendums. And that's where I think a lot of the the publicity and the news and the media has gotten on this lately and you know, obviously the pulse included now, but talking about how the school funding formula is broken or needs to be revamped or needs to be revitalized,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: that sort of thing. At least that's one aspect of it that always sticks out in my mind.
Dan Tjernagel: Yeah, no, I would totally
Eleanor Corbin: Absolutely.
Dan Tjernagel: agree, Kevin and Eleanor. I know we've talked before,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: like you said, Eleanor, before we got this thing going about some of these key dates. Two thousand and nine comes up a lot, and you know, I think we all understand whether now we're in the past, and I know our board president
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Mike Stefani often talks at meetings and shares with folks, you know, like what in all of our homes costs basically the same as it did in, you know, whether the nineties or in this case two thousand and nine.
Eleanor Corbin: Sure. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Right. And everything costs more. And again, not to scare people, but we know we've dealt with inflation before, we're dealing with it now. This is reality, right? We're well aware, as are both of our boards. but I think maybe take that same information again from an expert, from experts down at WASBO, as Kevin said, right? And that's the school business officials association, right? So Kevin and I are part
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: of Wazda, they're the school district administrators in the state. Okay, professional organization, we go to professional development, et cetera. Our business managers are members of this WASBO. When we had Mike Berry speak here last month, right? That special session about TID, school finance, and whatnot, right? He works for that organization as a former school business official. One of the slides that I grabbed from his presentation, and again, his presentation is on our website. deals exactly to what Kevin was just talking about. But now let's look in the through the eyes of kids. Right? Whether a person has kids or grandkids in school, I think community members in this part of the world, right, are sensitive to the needs of kids and families. And the reality is the current senior class, the class of 2027, will be the fifth class of seniors. To graduate without any inflationary increase in the revenue limits during their time in school. All right, to what Kevin just talked about, to that $3,500, right? To the dollar for
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: people that like specificity, it's really $3,571 is where that has legged. And if you take a district enrollment, whether Southern Dor, Sturgeon Bay, or really anywhere around the state, and you do the math right and you extrapolate that out. It's pretty easy to see that boy, the total number of students in a district times $3,571, if that inflationary increase had continued, which it didn't in 2009, those are amounts very similar to what many of the referenda statewide are, including, and again I'll let Kevin speak to Southern Door, but including Sturgeon Bay, right? So depending on the actual calculation of students, when I just ran this through and put this into a slide. I think we had it within, two hundred seventy-eight thousand nine hundred and eighty-eight dollars of of the ask
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: if we look at our third Friday count times that amount. And certainly that's an amount that we have worked on through some of the cuts we've made that we'll get back to or cuts we'll make in the future. So
Eleanor Corbin: For sure. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: these are situations where people say, we wish there weren't operational referenda, like hey, tell me about it, right?
Eleanor Corbin: Right.
Dan Tjernagel: We would say the same thing, and I know our boards would as well. And at the same time, there are elected officials that we talk with, and we can circle
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: back to this. We'll see our legislators in northeast Wisconsin at tomorrow morning's superintendent meeting. We meet with them every couple of months. there are many legislators that while you know some are more or less frustrated with the whole funding formula and that whole
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: topic. the reality is they would say, but really this is the mechanism for local control. that
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: yes. Some would say the state should pay more, some would say the state shouldn't pay more. But the reality is it is the option and has been for some time. Sturgeon Bay has been an operational referendum cycle since 2007, right? This is where we've come to our voters every three years initially and now five years to say, hey, here's where we're at, here's what we provide. No, no one really wants to tax themselves more. But would you consider doing this so we can continue to provide quality education in our community? And that's where a majority of voters, at least to this point, have been in support of that. But you see how those dollars back to that
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: thirty five hundred dollars, like, isn't that fascinating? Had that continued, you wouldn't see eighty-some percent of districts going operational referendum. You just won't.
Kevin Krutzik: I've heard, you know, in my two and a half years ish in this district, you know, like the district needs to learn to live within its means, you know, people
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: in their homes and the you th their households and their families have to live within their means. I think it just I don't wanna, over, play this point, but if that if that would have rose with inflation since two thousand and nine, I think most districts could say we are living within our means, if the means would have been
Eleanor Corbin: Sure.
Kevin Krutzik: provided in a consistent and equitable manner, you know, that extra thirty five hundred dollars per student, you know, I am pretty confident that most, maybe not all, but most districts would feel like we are living within our means, you know, and still doing what we can to again provide the best services and programs that we can for our students, again, balancing that against the ask of the taxpayers, which is, you know, obviously what every district is trying to accomplish.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: Sure. I agree. And I think you you guys at the Pulse have covered this for us already, Eleanor, whether you realize this or not. So thank you. But
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: what I'm about to say is, okay, so some folks would say, okay, Dan, Kevin, Eleanor going back to the nineties, going back to 2009. Okay, fine. But give me something that's a little more recent. That's that's a challenge though for the districts, right?
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: Right.
Dan Tjernagel: And one of those things is from again Mike Berry's presentation that he gave at the start of September on TIDS and school finance here in Sturgeon Bay. One of his slides that was actually I I first found out I was pictured because a former administrator colleague of mine had sent me a text from the Pen Pulse article that I'm standing in front of the slide, and I remember bringing this slide back up. And the slide basically says this. folks again can find this on our website a couple of different ways. But if enrollment is declining, Why aren't school taxes also declining? Right? Because I think most of us would say, All right. Yes on the nineties, yes on two thousand nine, whether I fully understand it or not. I believe you guys, right? You're educators, okay,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: you track this. So do the school boards. But like, we don't have as many kids in families and schools as we used to, which is absolutely true, right? Nationwide, regionally, statewide, or com whatever the case might be. And one of the slides Mike showed, and that's the slide I'm standing in front of for for the picture for that story the pulse had done that I have my picture with it. I'm right in front of this slide where it talks about.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Membership, right, or enrollment, and there's a three-year rolling average the state uses, but listeners don't need to be confused by that, right? That over time, right, it starts to dip comes up a little bit, kind
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: of back in 15, 16, 17, 18, and then since then, kind of some sort of slow decline, right? But what's happening during that time is we're also seeing, especially more recently, the last few years. Remember, I said, okay, let's take a break from 2009 to the 90s, let's just look at the last few years. What's happening? We do have fewer students, and we are cutting Southern Door, Sturgeon Bay, both cutting staff positions, there's no question. But the reality is we're also seeing a steep decline in what is called equalization aid or general school aid. All right?
Eleanor Corbin: Got it. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: And that is money, as I know you know, Eleanor, from the state of Wisconsin that the state uses
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: to try to equalize so that depending what zip code a kid lives in in the state of Wisconsin, their education isn't totally different, even though
Eleanor Corbin: Sure.
Dan Tjernagel: we know. Whether it's say a northern suburb of Milwaukee, right, that you know, per pupil is a much higher number, say, than Sturgeon Bay
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: or Southern Door, or again, not to ding our neighbors, two districts to the north from where I'm standing right now. But I think statewide most people know Gibraltar is at or near the top in a lot of those, which again, not a knock on them, good for them. But the simple reality is as there's
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: less and less money from the state. And districts like Southern Door and Sturgeon Bay are impacted by that far more than say Sevastopol or Gibraltar, right? Because of the really the value the tax base per pupil
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: that we're seeing that drop off. So yes, fewer students, yes, we're making reductions, but we're seeing like this last year we saw $806,000 less from the state. And we anticipate
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: another $600,000 less that we'll find out in the next couple of weeks. Well, people can do that math pretty quickly and say that's north of
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: one point four million dollars. Right? And if I say, okay,
Eleanor Corbin: Right.
Dan Tjernagel: one point four million dollars plus let's just say local cost of special education for us, even if the state had given us the money they promised last year and we didn't get it, let's just say two million dollars plus one point four million dollars plus just a tiny bit of inflation that's right around that ask where
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: we're at with the three point seven five, without it even getting into some of the other things. So that's
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: that's an important thing for people to realize, and I think. If we were talking with our elected officials, they would say, Well, well, we didn't really cut that. No, but
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: by putting no additional dollars, which was very rare that the state budget didn't put any additional dollars, the state knew every elected official in Madison knew they
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: were pushing more of this burden, if you will, tax burden,
Eleanor Corbin: So yeah, I I kinda wanna circle back around to something that Kevin said about living within your means and this idea that school districts should be able to spend the money that is given to them by the state and not necessarily need anymore or have to go to their community anymore. And we kind of saw in that last question that there's a couple different factors intersecting that make that a little bit tricky, both kind of the rising costs of raw material of everyday goods, general inflation, but then also the kind of increased burden on the taxpayer from from general aid. and so I'd I'd I'd like to ask kind of a little bit more generally, when you as administrators are considering having less money, right? having less to go around, what kind of things can you make cuts or concessions on and what kind of things do you absolutely need to be able to provide to your students?
Kevin Krutzik: Well, I mean, it's probably no surprise that approximately seventy to seventy five percent of school districts or probably any company or organization's expenditures are their employees. So unfortunately, first and foremost, if you're looking at big ticket items, that would be kind of the first area that school districts like Southern Door last year we actually eliminated thirteen employees
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: after last school year coming into this school year. So that's I mean that's easier said than done of course, because then of course you have to look at class sizes and you know who's going to be doing those positions and you know like a can you just eliminate positions without that again impacting your day-to-day operations, the the
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: student experience, the programs and services that students need, you know, obviously special education is crucial for the students and there are a lot of laws around those. I mean we can only reduce so many positions in any area, but especially special education.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: so first and foremost I I I that's where we looked and that's how we came up with the number of employees that we eliminated, like I said, thirteen just after last school year, which again
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: did impact. I mean we did we did eliminate six teachers, full time teachers of those thirteen. So it obviously impacted our class sizes somewhat at the elementary and
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: middle school, but definitely impacted our high school. So we we can't offer all of the high school courses that we offered in the past. Yeah, I mean, even in addition to that, we actually froze the pay for all of our district
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: employees. in addition to eliminating thirteen people, and other things, you know, lesser dollar amounts, but definitely areas that we look at are things such as, you know, consultants and support that we get from other
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: outside entities such as CISA 7, which is kind of the northeast Wisconsin educational service that most districts in Northeast Wisconsin. and contract through but again just speaking for Southern Door here we did eliminate all of our our consulting days basically with that organization
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: curriculum materials technology facilities maintenance and equipment purchases. you know, we drastically reduced all of those things. Again, smaller dollar amounts individually, but when you compile all of those kind of
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: collectively, those can you know have a substantial impact as well. So I know some people kind of frown upon those because it some people say we're just kind of kicking the can down the road, especially when you're talking about facilities maintenance and equipment.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: As we're talking about inflation and things getting more expensive as time goes on. Well if we delay those and then we end up making that purchase at some point or having that you know whatever needed to be maintained at some point in the future what's going to cost us even more if we
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: delay that so it's those are kind of the battles that we're fighting trying to make sure that we're you know keeping our campus safe and and secure and making sure that it's you know again we're able to provide all the programs and services and the best education that we can for our students but again still trying to balance that with the ask of the of the taxpayers and really trying to be again living within our means trying to be as frugal as we can
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: without it again impacting our day-to-day operations and I'm sure Dan and Sturgeon Bay are in the same boat. I'm sure every district for the most part is is looking at that same approach. So when we have to make cost reductions, I would think employees, unfortunately but realistically, probably are first because they're our biggest expenditure. And then you kind of take it from there and kind of it's almost like a triage approach where
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: looking at what what's what's realistic, you know, and what's and we're kind of looking at that long term, kind of having a plan in place.
Dan Tjernagel: yeah, spot on with the staff piece, right? We employ individuals to work with individuals, right? We employ
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: adults to work with kids of varying ages. That that's just how schools work, right? That's
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: the reality, right? We don't crank out a product, a widget, or whatever you want to say that we've all heard over the years. And so think our specific numbers are usually around 70% and 90%. I can break it down in this case because I have it with me. as far as our costs to employ staff, you know, Kevin talked about roughly 70%, which is a great guide. I can tell you ours, Jake
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: just recalculated, it's 72% of our district costs deal with employing staff. And then
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: when you add on, whether it's a cooperative service agency or some additional special ed services or maybe a deaf and blind student needs services beyond this
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: area. Really, our cost, and again, we contract with Cobusin, right? We don't employ technically our own bus drivers. We call them our bus drivers, right? They're like our
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: staff, but technically they work for Cobasin. That goes back to just before my time here. But really, when you add the purchase services to employing
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: cost, that's ninety-three percent of our costs. to make up and not go to referendum by, you know, whatever, just taking care of seven percent, right? Subscriptions. Paper pencils, right, which is nowhere
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: near the paper pencils of where we was when I was a kid, right? And it it just it just doesn't come out. so Kevin, spot
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: on, you have to look at at the staff situation, which is a challenge, but it's it's reality. kind of from that, let me swing back to students for a moment. Yes, we have
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: to do it as fiscally responsibly as possible, right? Maintain our buildings, take care of kids and families, but here's a simple reality with students too. and this is someone like an Ann Chapman. So we've talked about Mike Berry from Wasbo, Ann Chapman from Wasbo, right, a state level person. as she talks about hey, the makeup of your student population, your demographics, right? If you are above the state average with your special ed population or above the state average with your economically disadvantaged if you're above the state average with English language learners, and we are in all three categories, it is simply more expensive to educate a child. It just is.
Eleanor Corbin: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Okay, so no, we don't have as many kids in school as maybe when I was in school, right? I'm in
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: my fifties. Okay, but the reality is the needs, right, kind of small percentage as well as certain categories are greater. Okay. Here
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: in Sturgeon Bay, I can tell you based on some numbers that one of my people pulled just the other day, we have four hundred and ninety-one students who are economically disadvantaged. just over
Eleanor Corbin: Okay.
Dan Tjernagel: half of our student population. Okay.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: We have officially, and I believe today the number's actually higher than this, okay, we have 70 English language learners.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: All right. And as far as special education students, students with a federally mandated individualized education plan or IEP, as some people have heard, okay, that number last day to pull was 168. So when you
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: look at those types of situations and someone says, Well, I remember when I was in school and all that, I hear you. But when I was in school and a lot of listeners were in school, we didn't have that percentage of kids with some level of poverty, or kids with an IP, or kids who need help learning English. We just didn't have it. Again, not a blame, not an excuse. It's simple reality. And then,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: by the way, all our other students that we want to provide the majority of our programming and many of
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: our staffing, right? Where the costs that are part of running school that most people understand. It's it's just reality. So you have to look at staffing levels, but
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: there's a certain level you can only go so far.
Eleanor Corbin: so talking about kind of affordability and and and what school districts need to be able to provide for those students and how referendums can kind of make that possible in certain situations where funding isn't as plentiful as it needs to be for certain programs. I think that Southern Door has kind of served as an interesting counterfactual to this in this past year. in the last decade and a half in general. Door County voters have been fairly supportive of operational referendums. They passed them for the most part. however, in April of last year, voters did reject a operational referendum in Southern Door. And so now we're kind of seeing, or at least Kevin, you are first hand, what it looks like at a school district when you don't have that additional money. you've already shared a little bit about, the full-time positions that have needed to be cut, the classes that have needed to be dropped, but Maybe you can share a little bit about your experience from the past six months of of how it's been to be at Southern Door without that gap in inflation not being filled by referendum dollars.
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah, in addition to like I said, the thirteen positions, that we had to reduce coming into this school year. You
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: know, some of the other things, like I said, that we had to pause or delay or eliminate. yeah, I mean it's it's it was a shock in the spring when it when it didn't pass. I mean it was a Detriment to the morale and to the culture of our district for a while. But obviously, you know, we we work together with the board, the admin team, and getting feedback from all of our employees and kind of what we can do to kind of pick ourselves back up and you know
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: move forward. Cause obviously that's what we need to do for our students and our families and our community. And obviously that's what we did. but however, in all honesty, I mean we did have quite a few employees, you know, leave on their own accord. Obviously, we did have to reduce
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: some. So some we did reduce on our own. You know, we had to non-renew some, some retired after. the referendum didn't pass, we had seven additional people come forward that wanted to retire prior to the referendum.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm.
Kevin Krutzik: We only had one, so we had eight retirements. then we had quite a few people just leave on their own. they just
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: I I would assume determined that they, you know, financially couldn't make this work or, you with the with the pay freeze. And
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: I maybe just, you know, a little nervous on kind of where the district is headed. So just in our teaching staff, we have right around a thirty percent turnover from last year to this year, which again, some of that is retirement. Some of it is we had
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: to, you know, reduce on our own, but most of that is just people on their own leaving, which we were able to find for the most part, great replacement
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: employees. And I mean by the most for the most part is because some we could not find. We had 2.5
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: speech and language pathologists last year. All three of those individuals, equaling 2.5 employees, resigned
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: at the end of last year. And we had that job posted, those positions posted for several months. We had zero applicants. So we have
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: since had to contract with private companies to do speech and language services. Which is a legal requirement, as Dan knows. Any
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: student with an IEP or you know, people listening, just so they know it. This isn't like something extra or something for fun. It's legally required for us to provide these services. We had the contract with several other companies to be able to have approximately 2.5 employees here, which again, those companies don't come cheap either. so it actually is costing our district more than if we would have been able to find 2.5. Employees and hire them on our own, we now have to contract out. So it's it's things like that that are, you know, it sounds simple. We'll just well go find somebody to provide the services we did, but it actually costs
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: us more, which again is another budget hit, you know. So if you know, living within our means, we're doing our best to live within our means and trying again to be as frugal and conservative as we can with our costs. You know, like I said,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: the balance between the ask of the taxpayers versus you know what the students and the staff need, we're trying to balance that out. But I mean we've I I don't want to downplay, you know, the employees that we were able to hire, they're great. You know, our mentors, our
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Kevin Krutzik: our our veteran teachers are taking them under their wing and you know, we're we're doing the great, you know, we're doing a great job and a great thing. It's just if that's gonna kind of be the The norm of you know, anywhere near a thirty percent turnover every year. I mean, if people out there listening, if you work in a company or you worked, you're retired, I mean a thirty percent turnover in your in your employee. group, it's really
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: hard to to have consistency and continuity in what you're doing when you have a thirty percent turnover in your your teaching staff. It's a it's a big ask. It can be done and like I said, we're we're a month into school. I I
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: know our students and our staff are happy. We're we're doing great things, but it's just if that's if that's gonna be the new norm, we can't you know cut ourselves the excellence. You know, we can't keep cutting but it can't be an excellent school district. And we we're again we're doing the best we can and you
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: know our our school report cards and our student data, you know, hopefully doesn't take a hit when it comes to this. Cause like I said, we're down just six teachers going into this school year. And
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: you know, if if we don't get the funding, I mean, I I don't again, I'm not saying this threateningly, but I've said the same thing six months ago or you know a year ago when we were talking about the APO referendum that our district will look different next year if we don't get this referendum. Cause again, if we don't get the extra funding, we're gonna have to make cuts. And like I said earlier, the first place we look. is our most expensive area, which is employees. so yeah, I mean our district is different this year. Like I said, we have less courses, we're trying to be as frugal as we can. We have different
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: employees. We have less employees, but you know we're it's it it looks and feels different, but I think we're providing the best educational services that we can for our students and our families.
Eleanor Corbin: Absolutely. that's a good transition a little bit into the decision making process that the school board goes through when deciding to go up for an operational referendum. what what kind of factors are you guys balancing not only in terms of your needs, but in terms of the support that you have from the community and in what you realistically think you can accomplish with a referendum?
Dan Tjernagel: This this is one of those areas for for all of our listeners where, communities and school districts have similarities and they have differences, right? So I mean I can speak obviously now. This is my thirteenth year in Sturgeon Bay, and the community I'd been in for 10 years before that had operational referenda as well. but I can say being my fifth referendum, fourth operational in my time here, that
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: we understand, as I learned from whether Joe Studding, who was the superintendent before me and he gave me local context, or I've learned from all of our board members over the years, like, understand that as we go through our process, which might be a little different than, you know, in Southern Door or Sevastopol or Lux Casco or whatever, right? That's normal or Marinette where I grew up, right? The reality is that our process is really largely informed and based on past referendum processes as we've looked at, okay, what types of things does the community want to hear about? What types of questions or requests offered information, right? How has that worked? So we're not starting from scratch every time. We're able
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: to say, okay, yes, we need to be aware and update information and all those types of things, and we do that. But like our current process is based on multiple referendum processes before that. So the community knows certain things, right? They know certain things that we're going to share and talk about in our board meetings. They know our website has
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: all sorts of information. It's got the last three referendum information. Every resource we had in the referendum is still on the website.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Okay. all those type you know, the the the letter we sent to all taxpayers last November, before we even knew what we were gonna do with a referendum, to say, Hey, here you go, taxpayer, with your tax bill. Here are some changes that the state budget has brought to different things, and here are the different tax levy options the board wrestled with. Like we did that and we started a website for taxpayers with those resources again last fall. our community, those who have been around it all or in the know know we push information. information out to that all the time. So anyway, long story short and we can talk about the survey in a minute, but I guess our process is based largely on previous processes.
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah, yeah, definitely very similar to Southern Door. I've only been here, you know, like I said, a little over two years. But yeah, very similar. we we did a survey last fall asking not not really what people would support per se, but like what
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: if the if the district, if the board decided to go to a referendum, where should the priority areas be? And the number one by far the number one area was recruit and retain staff was the number one area.
Eleanor Corbin: Got it. Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: So when the board decided to move forward with a referendum, they allocated the most dollars towards making basic market adjustments to all of our salary scales to
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: all of our employees, not just teachers, but all of our employees, because we obviously employ, you know, many different employee groups
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: here. So therefore, you know, if somebody ever questioned like, well, wait a second, why are you spending that much money on, you know, staff salaries or we can the board, we could refer back to that survey then and say, well, the community has spoken and they said that that what they value most is, you know, consistency and continuity in staff and having their staff, you know, obviously fulfilled, you know, financially is is a big part of that. And so they felt like they would support that. So that's one of the reasons why, you know, if if you look at our how we're allocating
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: both in April and now in November, how we're allocating most of the dollars for our operational referendum would be for, market adjustments to our salary scales for all of our employee groups.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: we have compared ourselves against not only Door County but Northeast Wisconsin in terms of again not just teachers but paraprofessionals. We call them associates from bus drivers to admin assistants to our administrators and you know just kind of I don't want to say proving, but kind of showing like hey we we need to kind of beef this up a little bit because even prior to last April's, failed operational referendum we were we were low and we were having troubles attracting and retaining staff. now we have a 30% turnover just in our teaching staff. So with the freeze to our pay scales now we're even further behind than you know I'm assuming Sturgeon Bay probably had some kind of increase in there albeit very small but still an increase in their salary scales. We didn't have any for the school year. So it's it's it's a big ass to ask our employees to stick around. know when they did not get any sort of raise and they're not quite sure what the future even holds. So you know that's that's again kind of kind of where those surveys come into play at least the way Southern Doors used them. I know there's obviously other ways to use there's different types of surveys different ways you can use them. reading articles about Sturgeon Bay they point blank asked like would you support this dollar amount and Southern Door did
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: not do that last fall because we felt that it was more again looking at priority areas and what would the community support in terms of allocating our dollars without getting into specifics of the dollar amount, but that's where we came up with the dollar amount at the end.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: So just a different way, different approach. Not right, not wrong, just a
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: different approach than probably what Sturgeon Bay did this time this time around.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: Yeah, I think, this is our third community survey, right? And I've now been a part of four previous referendums, so I have kind of a sense for what our board, our community, et cetera, likes and doesn't like, right?
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: some of that priority information Kevin spoke to was information that we used in a previous operational referendum survey, because we historically hadn't done surveys for operational referendum, capital, yes.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: Not operational. And the capital referendum survey information was so insightful and so useful to the board and I think the community, which is why that process went the way it went. We said, well, how can we, at least in our community and district anyway, why not
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: keep that kind of mojo going? So with the the last operational referendum, right? We were talking, do we want three years, five years? Some people were telling us, could you go a little longer? We said, well, we're not going to
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: just go longer, we're going to test that. So we did that. And then we asked the community to prioritize some areas. So as we worked with the company again, it was kind of like, all right, yes, you want to communicate the reality to your stakeholders, right? Because a good survey, let's be honest, it educates the person taking it and then gives them a chance to think and go, hmm, okay, you're asking me for feedback. First, you need to give me some info, and then you give me some feedback. At least that's that's my sense on it, right? So our survey this time kind of built off of what we knew from the past and said, okay. Knowing some of these things, all right, what about these three levels? our base amount that was three point five million that the board felt we really needed. And based on being able to get tax tolerance information from the community in the past, like our capital referendum, how spot on that was, we're like, we want to stick with that. But then there were some other things to test, right? Like, well, what about some
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: additional staff? really kind of support dollars as far as you know being more competitive, that was something that
Eleanor Corbin: sure. Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: community members had some pretty strong thoughts on. And a number of folks have told us, like, hey, I'm in favor of it if you include that additional amount. So that's how we went from the 3.5 million per year for five years to the 3.75 million, right? That was very insightful to our board to say, okay, here's what people are telling us. Whereas we weren't sure on the maintenance, we are hearing some different things,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: we continue to do maintenance, and as Kevin knows, right, the cost of roofing is about three times what it was just a few years ago. So there we tested, well, what do you think about some additional dollars for maintenance? And that's where kind of that dropped off, right? Rather than being about 60% support, it was
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: kind of 50-50. And our board thought, mm, there's margin for error there. We're we're not
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: our community has spoken, we're not gonna pursue that. And so that's why our board, although they know it's a huge responsibility. They felt about as good and clear as they could,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: knowing all the financials that we put together with our Baird, you know, finance models and all those things, and then the feedback from community members through a survey and an in-person session as well to say, okay, 3.75 is the amount that we want to take to our community.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah. and Kevin, I'm curious from your guys' process, since you use the survey for more general kind of support questions, how did you come up with the number for the recurring referendum for Southern Door this time around?
Kevin Krutzik: this time round actually it's two point zero five five. The one in the spring was three point one five. last spring, last April, when we asked the taxpayers for a 3.15 three-year non-recurring
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: operational referendum. That one, obviously, the community has spoken, right? So the the board knew the admin team knew, like, well, we can't ask for that. so we, you know, they they spoke very loud and clear and said you have to ask for less, you know, if if you're going to ask anything in the future. So we knew number one, we have to ask for, you know, pretty significant amount less. obviously looking at the impact again on mill rate and tax levy and things of that nature, which we did. so we've obviously kind of scaled back on what we were asking for. I think some of the feedback we received too from last spring to over the summer and kind
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: of going into fall now was that it was a little overly complicated, like all of the items, like we had technology in there and we had, you know, all these all these other areas that maybe confused people. So the board was very aware that we need to make it very simple this time around. So for our staff compensation,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: looking at trying to get us, you know, more to I again I I I always use the term market adjustment, but try to make us more competitive. That number came to 1.43 million dollars.
Eleanor Corbin: For sure. Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: And again, and that's all employee groups, not just teachers. we've felt that our needs now are getting to the point where things are getting more and more expensive. So it's hard to to keep up with that. So we allocated 300,000, so 1.43
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: million for staff compensation, 300,000 for facilities maintenance. Again, not facilities, like building things, but maintaining
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: what we already have. And then restoring three teaching positions, that felt that were you know, again, like I said, we've been reducing the last actually I don't think
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: I did say this part, but over the last six years we've reduced thirty seven employees. Coming into this school year we reduced thirteen employees. so Our our hope is that for next school year for sure, we'd be able to restore three teaching positions. And that's where $282,000, that's salary and benefits. Obviously, we don't know. You know, if it's somebody right out of college, it'd be a
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: little bit less. If it's a veteran, it could be a little bit more. So again, those dollars aren't maybe down to the penny. But if you add all of that up,
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Kevin Krutzik: it's it's right around $2.05 million dollars. And that's where we came up with that amount. So nothing in there about technology, nothing in there about curriculum,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: and nothing in there about you know things of that nature that again just again the community spoke. We and the board knew that we need to scale things back. We need to live within our means. We need to really
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: ask what's crucial and not really look to expand anything because those three things really are just maintaining what we really have. It's maintaining our current employees and like I said, hopefully adding those three teachers back. It's maintaining our facilities and that's really it. Whereas the last one in the spring we were looking at you know trying to expand our technology And our camera system and looking at our curriculum and really expanding the district that way.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: adding you know, an administrative position last spring. We had you know, adding you know, other positions, which this time around
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: we're not. It's just three teaching positions, making market adjustments to our salaries, and then like I said, the facilities maintenance. But again, by far the biggest amount: 1.43 million out of the two. 2.055 is salary adjustments. And again, I can point back
Eleanor Corbin: For sure. Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: to that survey even to say like the community spoke and they said by far the number one priority is recruit and retain staff. So we can justify why that dollar amount is so large. And we can further,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: like I said, justify it because our pay scales are lagging quite a bit behind Door County and Northeast Wisconsin.
Eleanor Corbin: For sure. I'm curious a little bit in general, in your guys' experience at least, if the cosmetic or demographic differences in your district or uniqueness of your district at all affects the way that the board considers and approaches referendums. like I know for example, Southern Door has a much higher transportation need than than Surgeon Vay, for example. Do things like that, those kind of over those large kind of general differences, do those also affect how you guys approach referendums at all?
Kevin Krutzik: I think so, yeah. I mean, we have a hundred and ninety-six square mile district. We do employ all of our own school bus drivers. We own all of our own school buses. We did go with the RFP, just so everybody knows. last winter, my facilities director and I did send out an RFP to see if we wanted to an RFP just means would it would we be better off financially to contract with a company like Cobison, like Sturgeon Bay does, for example, instead of owning our own buses and employing our own bus drivers, which because you could Argue could be a cost that maybe would save us some money. And we found
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: out that for us, again, being as as geographically large as we are, and
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Kevin Krutzik: kind of as sparse as we are, we have a lot of square miles, 196 square miles, but we're under just under a thousand students. So that's that's not a lot of students per square mile. I know Dan can speak to his district much better than I can, so I'm not going to go there right now, but but yeah, definitely things that we look at. We did reduce a bus route this year, so we're we reduced a bus, a bus driver, a bus route for this school year. So So yeah, definitely things. I mean, I mean really districts have to look at all of your expenditures, everything, really nothing is off the table when you're looking at referendums and what possibly you could need to spend your money on and what you and how would that compare to what you would put in your operational referendum or at least ask the taxpayers to fund that additional money for. there's nothing that's off the table. But I'll let Dan speak to his experiences in Sturgeon Bay specifically.
Dan Tjernagel: Yeah, and I think whether a person in public or private sector work is familiar with the zero-based budgeting concept or not, the reality is any business or in our case a district, right, as you look
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: at the budget, there is a baseline of the previous year or series of years, right? And so in our case, being geographically quite small, right, our spend on transportation is gonna be much less. than say right kevin in his district in southern door. The reality, however, is it's not like, we both started at the same point. So woohoo, you know, here's a huge win, much less money we have to spend than them. The reality is, well, the year before and the year before that and the year before that. You know what I mean?
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: So there's that type of thing. I now just it doesn't happen to us very often. I got good news in email this week, right? There's a shocker. I
Eleanor Corbin: yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: I it was from Joe Cobison Because some folks may happen to know that we have propane buses, right? And propane buses aren't the best for long road trips, right? Our our sports teams, when they head to Peshtigo, don't take the propane bus, right? They typically take a diesel, and we all know what the cost of diesel is. he's like, Hey, I'm just sending you this letter, we're sending to some of our partner districts because of the savings. Given the current context and what's in the future. So it was like, every once in a while. So yes, it's not like, we got a bunch of money back or a rebate,
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: but we're not gonna see maybe the level of increase that unfortunately, say a southern door is gonna have to because they have so many more highway miles and diesel, you know, bills, if you will. So I mean, just transportation as one example that I think anyone
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: locally probably understands with our two districts. So that's kind of maybe good and easy to use that. but I think. Again, compare and contrast. Ways were similar,
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: ways we're different, And it's not just for taxpayers in Southern Door and Sturgeon Bay, right? it includes folks that live in Sevastopol and Gibraltar and on the island who just want to learn more about the current context because they'll be up again. Whether a person is in support of the referendum concept or not. Okay? I think something that's only human nature, and I sometimes wonder it myself on different topics beyond school funding in this case, right? But like, well, is anything ever gonna change? Right? D
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: do the districts in this case ever try something different? Do they think about something different? do they work with our legislators? I know that was something that came through with some of the comments in our survey,
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: and of course we know. And Kevin knows because you come, right? We host sessions for Doran Kiwani County superintendents
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: with representative kitchens you know a few times a year, depending on the year. We do that right here. you and I will be attending a session tomorrow, our regional superintendent meeting, and we will have both Democrat and Republican Assembly representatives and state senators at that session, But I hate to tell you, listeners, that as much as you'd like to think the more you learn about this, the better it is. It's not. Because we're reminded as we sit there as superintendents, and most of those conversations are very civil. I would say there was one last year where there was a state senator that went too far. And I would say members of his own party, he's he doesn't represent this particular area, his areas across the bay, were members of his own party, both from the assembly and the Senate side, talked with him and said. Basically, yeah, you c you can't
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: talk and act like that. I mean, superintendents, educators, we all want what's best for kids and families, right?
Eleanor Corbin: sure.
Dan Tjernagel: for the most part, there are those are productive and civil, although frustrating at times. And we're reminded that boy, some of the Republicans don't talk to the other Republicans.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: And certainly some of the Democrats and Republicans don't talk to each other. So as people say, Well, do you guys go out and advocate? We do, and we communicate and we help.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: And I wish we had a solution, but we don't. So I think people wonder about that, especially with the gubernatorial race, right, for governor coming up here that that's foremost. And I want to tell people, we hear you, we feel the frustration too. And I think the other part about, well, does nothing change and now let's get more practical. I think we do change things, whether it's staffing
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: levels, or other changes, and sometimes change is hard. So, for example, we aligned sk daily schedules at our elementary level. So, again, most people know on Southern Door, right, you're all at one campus, but you still have your schools. We happen to have, three different campuses, four different schools. We've aligned
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: both elementaries before, and new this year we aligned the middle and the high school. So TJ Walker Middle School and Sturgeon Bay High School are on the same basic Bell schedule with a little bit of a couple minutes here or there with announcements and breakfast break, right? But the concept is we did that, although people weren't crazy about it, and some didn't like the fact that we are giving up the block, and there's many things about the block I liked. Fewer passing
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: times, many different things, kids having to have fewer classes at once, but still get so anyway, we landed on an eight-period day. So kids' graduation requirements didn't have to change, they wouldn't have fewer opportunities for classes and and so forth. That's a whole different conversation, probably. But the point is we
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: made the change probably earlier than we needed to, looking ahead to the future. So as we have those retirements or resignations really that through attrition, right? Our long term
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: Term staffing plan, Eleanor. You and I talked about that last year already. It's based off of attrition. That not every time someone leaves that we get rid of that position, but we examine them all, and some of those are replaced and some aren't, and we can still, as we have fewer students over time, have a quality education here, again, in our district, or in this example
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: where I'm standing at the secondary campus, right? And I think
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: sometimes when you look at it, we had some challenges, we tried hiring another art person a year ago. Various things didn't work out, so we went from three district wide art teachers to two. Now, at first
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: some people feel like, you don't value the arts or art in general, and of course, that's absolutely not true. and change is hard, right? I get that, right? So we have an elementary art teacher now and a secondary art teacher. So, you know, it it it is what it is, right? The board and I understand that. We get some grief when we make a change like that, but we're still making all the art offerings at the elementary level and the secondary level. at the last minute. Again, Kevin has seen these too. Some of these are kind of purposeful long-term changes, some are shorter term. We had hired a choral teacher, and then in summer the choral teacher decided not to actually start working with us and went to another district. Happens to be Gibraltar. we tried to find a choral teacher, but guess what? Twenty-one other districts were also looking for a choral teacher.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: So our music staff stepped up. They came forward and said I'm sure we're gonna need to cover this year, and here's how we're gonna do it. we'll try again at semester to find one. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We'll try again next year. So there's a reduction. and again, not a long-term master plan, but some
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: of you know, just as Southern Door has gone with one less administrator than historically, we're doing the same thing, right? We're making it work this year without a high school principal. Mark Smullen is helping with duties, I'm helping with duties, John Dupuy's helping with duties, and that's just what we're doing. and again, our teachers have been great, students and staff members, while there's uncertainty coming in, whether it's the schedule, whether it's some of the staffing, right? We're making it work. Really appreciate everybody's patience, support, and pulling together, which tells us, you know, we're members of great school communities. but when someone wonders, are you ever doing everything different? We absolutely are. And someone who
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: doesn't know that, right, maybe just hasn't had an opportunity to see some of our literature or talk with us yet, which is why we always encourage folks, whether you have a little question or a big question, reach out and we're happy to talk with you.
Eleanor Corbin: For sure. both Southern Door and Sturgeon Bay have upcoming community sessions where people can come and and learn a little bit more about the referendums and ask questions. do you guys wanna plug those, in case they wanna join in on those?
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah, ours is October twenty-eight at six PM in our auditorium. if anybody's out there listening and w has questions or concerns or just wants to talk about anything, I'm sure Dan will say the same. But I'm always willing and able to meet you wherever you want. I'll meet you somewhere for coffee. We can talk on the phone, we can talk here in district office, wherever, wherever and however I can assist to make you informed and answer your questions. I will do whatever I can to do so. But yeah. October 28th for referendum information sessions in our auditorium at 6 p.m. I'm always available and also on our website. there's like only four or five things to click on, and one of them is operational referendum information. There's lots of information there. and if you're not finding what you you know need or want, just contact me or come to one of our sessions.
Eleanor Corbin: And how about at Surgeon Bay? What kind of resources can people look towards?
Dan Tjernagel: I think we're at our Sturge referendum information webpage. there's a quick button from the homepage to take you there. I think we're at a dozen different resources and counting. we're happy to talk with folks. They don't have to wait until the community session to ask us a question.
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: So I think just again, conceptions, misconceptions. A few different people have said,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: you know, I understand there's no referendum money going to that memorial park conflex across the street from the middle in high school. Can you just make sure you tell people that? So absolutely. So we are appreciative
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: that the city of Sturgeon Bay, that the city of Sturgeon Bay has already committed one point five million dollars to
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: those outdoor park and park athletic complex improvements. The reality is no dollars from this referendum would go toward any sort of construction. In addition to
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: whatever the city pledges, again, currently about 1.5 million, the rest would be done through private fundraising, not
Eleanor Corbin: Okay.
Dan Tjernagel: through this referendum and not added to the capital referendum we're already paying on. So definitely wanted to give that shout out as recommended
Eleanor Corbin: For sure.
Dan Tjernagel: by some of our parents and residents.
Eleanor Corbin: Absolutely.
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah, pr probably similar for Southern Door, ironically enough. I know there's been a lot of talk of our indoor turf facility and whether or not that's causing us to go to operational referendum or that's why we don't have enough money. I think probably through this podcast, at least I hope we've made it pretty clear that that's a different bucket
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: that that money comes out of. That's a capital referendum. This is operational referendum. We those two buckets can't be intermixed. Like we can't take money out of a capital referendum and use it for operational purposes. We can't use money from an operational referendum, use it for capital
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: purposes. But I just wanted to make that clear that about eight and a half million dollar indoor turf facility out of a fourteen point nine capital referendum from fall
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: of twenty twenty two is not the reason that Southern Door continues to need an operational referendum. Like I said, hopefully through this podcast or other means, hopefully we've made that clear that that's really not why this operational referendum is needed. and I think the board and the admin team feel really good about the two point zero five five million dollar three-year referendum. I think it's a good balance again between the needs of the students and the staff and the ask of the taxpayers. And again, we're looking forward. to engaging with our constituents and our taxpayers and our community to hear you know questions and concerns and things. And again, just to not trying to sway anybody, but just hopefully everybody can make an informed decision come November 3rd.
Dan Tjernagel: And actually, Kevin, you teed up something I was just thinking as we wrap up, we just want our listeners to understand that although technically, right, people like Kevin and myself as superintendents work for the Board of Education, and our boards can unanimously vote to go to referendum, The reality is technically, as superintendents, we cannot ask people to vote a certain way. Okay, we
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: can educate. That is a big part of our job. But we can't advocate, right? Our staff members, our
Eleanor Corbin: Got it.
Dan Tjernagel: board members in their own time, they absolutely can talk with folks and say vote yes and all those different things. And I think once in a while I've heard people say, like, Well, Dan, how come you don't just say vote yes? Well, technically, legally, ethically, I can't ask people to do that, even though yes, I work for a board and yes, they unanimously voted to go that way. That they didn't actually hear Kevin or me say that, because we can't. And I think the other piece, you know, there are different taxing authorities, So a property taxpayer here, right? There's the city, there's the county, there's NWTC, there's the school district, right? There's a variety of different things. But the reality as we do our estimations, our projections, right? And we know different people have had different things happen with their property values. I know we have in the last couple of years, right? And at least in our district, we know two years ago town of Sevastopol residents had a reassessment, city of Sturgeon Bay, a year ago. But the reality is our projection for that mill rate, right, or that tax rate, is that that would go down and that it would be less than it is this year, the current year of our fifth year of our five-year referendum. With a net revenue limit override amount of three point eight million. We're asking voters to consider 3.75, and that that estimated mill rate would indeed go down. the current projections are go from what we initially thought for this year was gonna be seven nineteen. I believe we're sitting at seven fourteen. we believe that the projection is even with the recurring or the non-recurring referendum replacement referendum that we
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: would hope would approved, if you will, on election day, that that rate would be right around seven dollars. So we project that being less, even though we don't control all the other aspects, of course, of the other taxing agencies or what the state is or isn't kicking
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: in, that can impact a person's total bill.
Kevin Krutzik: Yeah. And I know I mean, even though our mill rate is is projected to go down considerably, Almost a dollar fifty in the next three years. even if
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: we get our referendum. I know a lot of people kind of raise their eyebrows at that and like, well, that how is that possible? How can you get a referendum and plus your mill rate's gonna go down? the district, even prior to me, has done a really good job of prepaying a lot of the debt that we do have as a district. so
Eleanor Corbin: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: kind of like on your home mortgage, if you have a home mortgage and you have a minimum payment you pay every month, if you're paying more than that, you're it's obviously a cost to you, but you're also saving a lot in interest. So this district Southern Dora has saved millions of dollars the last four to ten years in interest savings. That's one reason how we can still get this operational referendum and still have our mill rate being reduced. Plus, I know I had mentioned all the things we reduced to 13 employees. That dollar amount, which I did not mention, was over $1.5 million. So just that savings
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Krutzik: right there, you know, and our our less tax levy that that we're asking of the taxpayers plus the general rise in our equalized value that Dan was mentioning.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Kevin Krutzik: You know, our our property values are going up faster than the state average. That obviously brings in more income for our district. So therefore, we can lower that mill rate even over the course of the three-year operational referendum if it passes. So a a pretty considerable drop in our mill rate over the next three years. Last year it was six dollars and ninety-nine cents. If the referendum passes, we're projecting it to be six thirty-five this year, six seven in year two, and five sixty one. one and year three. So again, a pretty considerable
Eleanor Corbin: Got it.
Kevin Krutzik: drop over, a four year period, last school year and the next three, even if the referendum passes. I know that's been a question that I've gotten several times. And if I can clarify that for anybody out there listening, I will be more than happy to do that.
Dan Tjernagel: When I think teeing it up, Eleanor, to some of the pulses, past coverage, and I'm guessing future coverage. you know, we talked a little bit about TIDS. We know that there is an impact there that should have a positive impact, not just on districts, but on our taxpayers. And I think ultimately we understand that. I think that's kind of why. we when you have a situation late last spring, right, the end of the school year, where there's a package out there that isn't just going to give at least a little relief to school districts,
Eleanor Corbin: Mm-hmm.
Dan Tjernagel: it was really supposed to give relief to taxpayers across our state. Door County and the 71 other counties, right? and
Eleanor Corbin: Absolutely.
Dan Tjernagel: you have a Democratic governor and Republican leaders, they come to consensus, they agree. It goes through joint finance, it goes through the assembly, and then it's voted down in the Senate. That's disheartening. And again, I honestly mean that not just as a school district superintendent, but as a taxpayer in this state, that
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah.
Dan Tjernagel: our elected officials could not f get that figured out. That is very frustrating. so the fact that we have residents who are frustrated about taxes, I don't blame you one bit.
Eleanor Corbin: Yeah, thank you both for joining me today, Dan, Kevin. Thank you for sharing your insight. hopefully the people listening to this podcast at least learned a little something while listening. I know even though I you know I've been covering this for almost two years now, I certainly still learn something new in this conversation. So thank you both for joining me today. you guys have been listening to the Peninsula Pulse podcast, and we will see you next time.