Alchemy Code Lab Review

WEBVTT
00:00:00.689 --> 00:00:06.030
Welcome back to another web dev podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow.
00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:10.439
In this podcast episode, we're gonna be reviewing alchemy, alchemy, CoLab, whatever you wanna call it.
00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:14.400
I brought on three real guests to give their three real experiences.
00:00:14.789 --> 00:00:17.429
Um, and we're just gonna dive into things like usual.
00:00:17.429 --> 00:00:18.629
We're gonna start with our intros.
00:00:18.660 --> 00:00:19.890
Uh, Paul, we'll start with you.
00:00:20.219 --> 00:00:21.679
So, three questions.
00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:22.760
When did you graduate?
00:00:22.769 --> 00:00:24.300
What industry did you come from?
00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:25.920
And, uh, what do you do now?
00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:27.390
Did you land a job or what's going.
00:00:28.949 --> 00:00:29.609
. Yeah, so
00:00:29.609 --> 00:00:30.210
I'm Paul.
00:00:30.210 --> 00:00:33.659
I graduated Alchemy in February of 2021.
00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:45.119
I, uh, my previous industry was wildland firefighting, working for the US Forest Service, and I did find a job pretty much right away after graduating Alchemy, and I'm still working there.
00:00:45.125 --> 00:00:45.869
I love it there.
00:00:46.049 --> 00:00:46.439
Thank you.
00:00:47.234 --> 00:00:47.594
Awesome.
00:00:47.744 --> 00:00:48.223
Sounds good.
00:00:48.463 --> 00:00:49.125
How about you, Cameron?
00:00:50.804 --> 00:00:51.344
Hey, Don.
00:00:51.344 --> 00:00:52.154
Yeah, so
00:00:52.424 --> 00:00:57.554
I graduated in June of 2021 and uh, the
00:00:57.904 --> 00:01:00.164
industry I came from, I worked a bunch of random jobs,
00:01:00.164 --> 00:01:00.765
honestly.
00:01:01.064 --> 00:01:12.405
Gas station attendant, taco Bell, shift manager, uh, car salesman, that's the one that broke me . Um, but now, yeah, I'm on my second job actually, so,
00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:14.459
Yeah, two jobs deep
00:01:14.459 --> 00:01:15.359
and doing well.
00:01:15.629 --> 00:01:16.799
Still, still loving it.
00:01:17.459 --> 00:01:18.030
Sounds good.
00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:18.930
How about you?
00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:26.728
I graduated in September of 2022, so about four months ago.
00:01:27.088 --> 00:01:30.388
And I came from a background in customer service.
00:01:30.388 --> 00:01:39.000
I've been working at Whole Foods Market in the customer service team for six years on the same team prior to that and just needed a change.
00:01:39.060 --> 00:01:43.049
Um, and I am still currently on the job hunt.
00:01:43.859 --> 00:01:44.219
Okay.
00:01:44.698 --> 00:01:45.359
Well, good luck.
00:01:45.569 --> 00:01:46.649
Hope you get that job soon.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:47.939
Thank you.
00:01:48.944 --> 00:01:50.295
. Um, so where do we start?
00:01:50.295 --> 00:01:55.004
Let's go ahead and just jump into kind of like, um, I like asking a question.
00:01:55.004 --> 00:01:57.344
So you, you probably did a little coding bootcamp research.
00:01:57.344 --> 00:01:58.605
You're looking through different programs.
00:01:58.605 --> 00:01:59.864
Which one should I choose?
00:02:00.344 --> 00:02:03.015
So you've already decided you're probably gonna go to a coding bootcamp.
00:02:03.224 --> 00:02:04.334
Um, you have some choices.
00:02:04.334 --> 00:02:09.814
What, but without knowing what you know now, what made you decide to choose Alchemy?
00:02:09.814 --> 00:02:13.245
And give them a chance and we'll talk over each other.
00:02:13.245 --> 00:02:14.175
But anyone is welcome to.
00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:19.560
, Cameron Zimmerman: I'll, Yeah, for me, um,
00:02:19.618 --> 00:02:21.239
it was kind of cut and dry.
00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:28.889
Uh, they accepted the GI bill so I was able to put GI Bill towards it and go to school for free.
00:02:29.459 --> 00:02:34.500
Um, and, you know, they were really high rated, so, you know, I did the interview.
00:02:35.189 --> 00:02:37.199
I basically experienced all green lights.
00:02:37.549 --> 00:02:38.639
Everyone was super nice.
00:02:39.088 --> 00:02:40.500
And yeah, it made the decision
00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:41.639
pretty easy for me.
00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:58.800
For me, um, I knew somebody who had gone through the program, and this was actually before I had decided that I wanted to go to coding school, was a friend of mine was telling me how amazing their experience had been at Alchemy.
00:02:59.409 --> 00:03:04.389
How it had like changed their life and like allowed them to lift themselves out of poverty.
00:03:04.389 --> 00:03:08.739
And like I was seeing the life that they were building for themselves at the time that I met them.
00:03:08.743 --> 00:03:13.929
And they were just so grateful for their experience and had nothing but good things to say.
00:03:14.049 --> 00:03:16.479
And so when I found myself figuring out.
00:03:17.275 --> 00:03:24.745
What I wanted to do with my life, I reached out to them and asked about it and they sent me a link to a developer 1 0 1 course.
00:03:24.745 --> 00:03:28.944
And then that was when I knew like I do wanna go to coding bootcamp.
00:03:29.064 --> 00:03:40.194
Um, and then I did my due diligence of course, and interviewed like other friends and roommates who were in tech who didn't have that same background, like things that I should.
00:03:40.629 --> 00:03:41.049
No.
00:03:41.049 --> 00:03:42.609
About coding boot camps.
00:03:42.609 --> 00:03:50.349
What's important like, um, you know, like live teachings versus like pre-recorded videos.
00:03:50.709 --> 00:03:56.469
Um, accessibility of like teachers and teaching assistants for support.
00:03:56.849 --> 00:04:00.930
, um, access to like a community that will support me afterwards.
00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:15.509
Um, and also financially, like a big one for me was, um, financial accessibility because they had scholarships and they had an income share agreement, which without their income share agreement option, like I would not have been able to jump in and do it.
00:04:15.629 --> 00:04:18.629
Um, cause I wouldn't have been able to afford it like beforehand.
00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:23.639
Um, so everything just kind of aligned and like told me like, this is the
00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:24.089
one.
00:04:26.774 --> 00:04:27.375
How about you, Paul?
00:04:28.154 --> 00:04:28.605
Yeah, I,
00:04:28.665 --> 00:04:42.584
uh, my criteria was basically I wanted a full stack JavaScript stack Web Development bootcamp with small class sizes and like strong ties to the Portland community and area and Alchemy Fit, all three of those criteria.
00:04:42.915 --> 00:04:45.404
And I also just went with my gut to a certain extent.
00:04:45.404 --> 00:04:46.634
I had a good feeling about it.
00:04:46.785 --> 00:04:56.295
So not, I guess not everything has to be based on logic, but, uh, I knew that they had, you know, Solid numbers a good reputation.
00:04:56.295 --> 00:04:57.824
So it wasn't too hard of a choice.
00:04:57.824 --> 00:05:05.834
I think the other choices were like Hack Reactor and App Academy, and I heard good things about them, but ultimately Alchemy seemed like the best fit.
00:05:06.855 --> 00:05:09.014
Okay, that sounds good.
00:05:09.644 --> 00:05:10.365
Gut choice.
00:05:10.365 --> 00:05:11.204
That's interesting.
00:05:11.475 --> 00:05:16.694
Did you, I'm actually curious, Paul, did you get to talk to admissions before you signed up and that's where you got your gut choice or?
00:05:18.185 --> 00:05:19.154
I did.
00:05:19.154 --> 00:05:21.884
I talked to Megan, um, who.
00:05:23.055 --> 00:05:25.995
, uh, I guess I don't know.
00:05:26.084 --> 00:05:34.814
That would be like Megan and Marty are the sort of the figureheads of alchemy and, uh, that reinforced my gut choice cuz Megan was awesome and I loved everything that she said.
00:05:34.814 --> 00:05:42.735
Uh, her philosophy of learning and teaching really, uh, uh, agreed with mine and she was just a really nice person.
00:05:42.793 --> 00:05:44.264
So absolutely
00:05:45.254 --> 00:05:48.973
all the exact same green lights, , that's.
00:05:49.860 --> 00:05:50.069
Yeah,
00:05:50.069 --> 00:05:57.149
what I can say, when I talked to Megan, um, we had our little info session and she was like completely real.
00:05:57.149 --> 00:05:59.519
She's like, we're not here to like pitch to you.
00:05:59.550 --> 00:06:03.658
You know, we wanna make sure that everybody feels good about the decision that they're making when they sign on.
00:06:03.658 --> 00:06:06.089
Like was just really authentic.
00:06:06.149 --> 00:06:14.639
Um, and I also walked away from that conversation with her already, like doing warm introductions for me and emails like she had connected me with two other people.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:23.949
in an email, um, of people who had a shared passion with me for like astrology who were wanting to do like astrology applications, and I was like, this is so
00:06:23.949 --> 00:06:24.610
cool.
00:06:25.149 --> 00:06:25.990
So that's interesting.
00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:26.500
Yeah.
00:06:26.500 --> 00:06:27.399
Really good vibes.
00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:32.290
Was she willing to share emails or contacts with anyone that had a bad experience with the program?
00:06:33.478 --> 00:06:34.918
This was before the program.
00:06:34.918 --> 00:06:37.750
This was before I even, um, started Alchemy.
00:06:37.750 --> 00:06:41.848
This was my like informational, like, oh, is Alchemy like a program I wanna take?
00:06:41.848 --> 00:06:48.509
So we didn't even have an established relationship at that point, but she was like, oh, tell me a little bit about why you're into coding.
00:06:48.538 --> 00:06:49.439
Oh, that's really cool.
00:06:49.444 --> 00:06:50.908
I know some people who are also into that.
00:06:50.908 --> 00:06:51.899
Here, let me introduce you.
00:06:52.829 --> 00:06:53.428
I was like,
00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:54.509
from the get-go.
00:06:54.689 --> 00:06:55.769
Let me rephrase that.
00:06:55.769 --> 00:06:59.098
Do you think she's the type of person that's willing to share.
00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:03.180
For P prospect students that are kind of trying to figure out if this is the right fit.
00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:06.509
Cuz you mentioned like it, it feels like it.
00:07:06.509 --> 00:07:07.589
She felt authentic.
00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:09.149
She wanted it to be a good fit.
00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:17.110
So in my eyes, if you had asked her, can I talk to a student that had a bad experience, would she have connected you with that student?
00:07:18.689 --> 00:07:19.589
I believe she would.
00:07:22.230 --> 00:07:22.949
What about you two?
00:07:24.149 --> 00:07:24.480
Yeah.
00:07:25.110 --> 00:07:25.620
What's the vibe?
00:07:25.625 --> 00:07:26.610
I got general.
00:07:27.675 --> 00:07:29.024
Might be a little uncomfortable.
00:07:29.475 --> 00:07:29.625
Sure.
00:07:29.654 --> 00:07:31.814
But, you know, ultimately, yeah, I think so.
00:07:32.745 --> 00:07:34.845
You're paying I think any, oh, go ahead.
00:07:35.805 --> 00:07:36.194
I,
00:07:36.194 --> 00:07:42.254
I think anyone running a a business would probably try to avoid that to some extent, uh, as much as they could.
00:07:42.254 --> 00:07:46.545
But I, I think if you outright asked, I, I believe she would, but I, but I don't
00:07:46.545 --> 00:07:46.725
know.
00:07:46.725 --> 00:07:47.595
Cause I didn't ask.
00:07:48.524 --> 00:07:48.824
. Okay.
00:07:48.915 --> 00:07:49.365
Fair enough.
00:07:49.754 --> 00:07:52.754
Um, I understand you guys didn't ask, but I, I think it's a good question to ask.
00:07:52.754 --> 00:07:58.154
If you are on the fence, um, you should get those bad experiences or at the very least, pull up some reviews.
00:07:58.154 --> 00:07:59.144
Hey, I heard about this.
00:07:59.149 --> 00:08:00.764
Can you go ahead and explain the situation?
00:08:00.764 --> 00:08:02.685
Did you guys improve from it, et cetera.
00:08:02.689 --> 00:08:06.524
I think those are good questions and important questions to ask admissions.
00:08:06.795 --> 00:08:08.654
Cause you're, what is the price of this?
00:08:08.654 --> 00:08:11.264
Is it like, I might be off, is it 24,000?
00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:15.899
. Yeah, that's what, yeah, that's a highly sounds about right.
00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:16.199
Coding.
00:08:16.470 --> 00:08:16.889
Okay.
00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:20.040
So like that, that's definitely like, the numbers are very much up there.
00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:25.470
So for a program like this that's gonna charge you that much, I highly recommend students ask those tough questions.
00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.439
You can do it in a friendly way, you can blame it on me.
00:08:28.444 --> 00:08:31.889
Just I watch this on the developer guide, like, seriously, just put it all on me.
00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:34.710
But like, I think those are important questions to ask.
00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.798
Um, and we'll go over some of the reviews that I found as well.
00:08:37.830 --> 00:08:39.840
But, um, what about the curriculum?
00:08:39.870 --> 00:08:40.649
What do you guys think of.
00:08:45.404 --> 00:08:50.865
Well, it's funny you should ask about the curriculum cuz the curriculum actually changed partway through, uh, my cohort.
00:08:51.044 --> 00:08:53.445
And I don't think that was any fault of alchemy.
00:08:53.450 --> 00:08:59.085
There was a contractual dispute with the provider of their curriculum and I, I don't know if that could
00:08:59.085 --> 00:08:59.985
have been avoided.
00:09:00.075 --> 00:09:02.054
Uh, it's one of those things.
00:09:02.144 --> 00:09:07.335
And so they had to basically spin up a new curriculum from scratch, mid.
00:09:07.845 --> 00:09:12.345
Cohort, um, , and I think they did a good job about that.
00:09:12.524 --> 00:09:16.725
Uh, but the, the previous curriculum had been basically just like full stack JavaScript.
00:09:16.754 --> 00:09:17.504
It was solid.
00:09:17.835 --> 00:09:23.144
Um, I think they covered, they covered react very heavily, so a lot of react.
00:09:23.924 --> 00:09:28.664
that that was the big focus and then the newer curriculum, if I had to
00:09:28.664 --> 00:09:32.445
say a negative thing about it, it would probably be that they
00:09:32.445 --> 00:09:36.225
used superb base instead of SQL in the the new curriculum.
00:09:36.225 --> 00:09:42.975
So I don't know if you're really getting the full stack experience using kind of like a database as a service thing, but other than that, solid,
00:09:43.634 --> 00:09:44.894
I think that's a fair assessment.
00:09:45.855 --> 00:09:46.095
Okay.
00:09:46.784 --> 00:09:47.115
Yeah,
00:09:47.115 --> 00:09:48.105
when I went through.
00:09:48.719 --> 00:09:52.739
Pretty solid Postgres equal React obviously.
00:09:52.745 --> 00:10:01.500
Uh, they kind of start you out with the fundamentals of JavaScript node, so you get front end backend databases, stuff like that.
00:10:01.889 --> 00:10:06.299
Um, you know, it didn't seem like spectacular in any way.
00:10:06.304 --> 00:10:08.669
It didn't seem lacking in any way.
00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:13.109
Um, it ticked all the boxes for full stack development, in my opinion.
00:10:13.469 --> 00:10:15.208
Um, maybe low on.
00:10:16.245 --> 00:10:20.384
The data structures and algorithms maybe could have been better on that.
00:10:20.684 --> 00:10:30.794
Um, I think there were some supplemental programs that kind of pittered out that they offered to help with data structures and algorithms.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:32.625
But other than that, nothing really.
00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:35.879
Built straight into the curriculum.
00:10:36.450 --> 00:10:36.929
Um,
00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:38.669
and that was something I kind of struggled,
00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.070
struggled with, like out of the, the bootcamp, uh, having no background with that.
00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:47.820
So yeah, if, if there's one thing I could say it would be that, do you
00:10:47.825 --> 00:10:54.990
feel like it would be wise that students, when they do graduate the program to supplement that afterwards?
00:10:55.529 --> 00:10:55.799
I think
00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:56.970
immediately, yeah.
00:10:57.029 --> 00:10:57.330
Okay.
00:10:57.990 --> 00:11:00.299
Honestly, it's a, it's a huge thing.
00:11:00.629 --> 00:11:03.570
Um,.
00:11:03.210 --> 00:11:03.570
Don Hansen: Okay.
00:11:03.570 --> 00:11:05.850
What do you guys think about the data structures and algorithms thing?
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:17.850
I'll say that, um, by the time that I went through the program, we definitely were doing some data structures and algorithms through each module.
00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:28.629
Like it wasn't a heavy focus, but we would have like a week where we were kind of looking at that and like pair programming and trying to like work through like how, like understanding how they.
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:40.424
Um, and I feel like it was pretty well rounded for my cohort and especially towards like our last module, we delved a little deeper into like recursive functions and stuff.
00:11:40.455 --> 00:11:48.750
Um, Uh, but as far as what I thought about it, to be honest, like that specific aspect of coding makes my head spin.
00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:50.549
So it was really challenging for me.
00:11:50.578 --> 00:11:52.470
I was grateful for the exposure.
00:11:52.529 --> 00:11:59.789
Um, and I also just felt a little bit overwhelmed, like understanding that on top of like all the other things that we were
00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:00.360
learning.
00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:02.318
So, but it was good.
00:12:03.259 --> 00:12:07.679
You, at what module did you start learning recursive functions?
00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:08.760
. I
00:12:08.765 --> 00:12:16.769
want to say we first saw recursive in our third module, but I'm not sure about that.
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:23.610
We could have potentially seen them sooner, but I don't, I don't strictly remember, but somewhere in the middle of the
00:12:23.615 --> 00:12:24.090
program,
00:12:24.090 --> 00:12:24.659
I think.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:25.529
Okay.
00:12:28.049 --> 00:12:28.110
Okay.
00:12:29.610 --> 00:12:30.240
Paul, go ahead.
00:12:31.470 --> 00:12:44.159
Oh, I was just thinking, I, in my opinion, I don't think it's really practical to cover data structures and algorithms like computer science theory in, in any really solid way during a bootcamp.
00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:50.340
Um, I know that there's incentive to do it because it can help people get past certain job interviews, but I, I think the.
00:12:51.825 --> 00:13:03.345
maybe would be better spent, uh, focusing on like language fundamentals, like in JavaScript, how does JavaScript really work under the hood a little bit more than just building out react components or whatever.
00:13:03.345 --> 00:13:13.875
And that was something I thought there could have been more of where, you know, you talk about data structures and algorithms and co challenges and people think link the list, binary tree, all this stuff you'll probably never use at your job, but you absolutely.
00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:25.509
use things at your job, like callback functions and, uh, understanding be just a little bit about like the JavaScript prototype chain, kind of like these programming fundamentals and language fundamentals.
00:13:25.509 --> 00:13:37.029
And that's, uh, something I think could have been covered more maybe instead of data, maybe instead of that smattering of data structures and algorithms, if that makes sense.
00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:37.659
I
00:13:37.659 --> 00:13:38.139
agree with that.
00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:39.549
People get outta that.
00:13:40.539 --> 00:13:41.649
Yeah, I agree with that.
00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:42.220
I think.
00:13:42.914 --> 00:13:52.725
Having a heavier focus of that within the bootcamp and then supplementally as you go through your job search, depending on where you're kind of going doing the data structures and
00:13:52.730 --> 00:13:53.414
algorithms.
00:13:53.774 --> 00:13:54.703
Yeah, I, I'd say
00:13:54.703 --> 00:13:56.083
I agree with what Paul said.
00:13:57.254 --> 00:13:57.764
Interesting.
00:13:58.573 --> 00:14:09.764
I will say, I feel like for me, I'm glad that we focused on it as much as we did because like in the interviews I have had so far, they have been very focused on that and I think.
00:14:10.684 --> 00:14:18.120
, like there is a value to understanding how to do it in order to like kind of, you know, break into the industry and get a job.
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.578
Cause a lot of job interviews are conducted that way.
00:14:20.938 --> 00:14:26.000
And I don't know that I, like, I still struggle with them, but I.
00:14:26.924 --> 00:14:39.554
Do have, I did get a lot of help from the exercises that we would do in paired programming where we would like walk through it and we would have to like recreate a pop method without using pop, right.
00:14:39.554 --> 00:14:41.445
By using like four loops and stuff.
00:14:41.445 --> 00:14:46.455
And like that really helped the way that I approach those problems and think about them.
00:14:46.455 --> 00:14:53.835
And I don't know if I would've been able to achieve that had we not done them in the boot camp, like in the school together and like had people to
00:14:53.835 --> 00:14:54.315
work through them.
00:14:56.085 --> 00:14:57.225
I think that's reasonable.
00:14:57.404 --> 00:15:06.975
I, so both are important, um, for different reasons, and so I would, I would argue, so this is a full-time, six month program, right?
00:15:08.370 --> 00:15:08.698
. Okay.
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:10.500
So it's a long program.
00:15:10.708 --> 00:15:22.469
You have coding boot camps that are three months, less than four months that will fit in data structures and algorithms that will, uh, focus on a lot of fundamentals and they always drop the ball on something.
00:15:23.009 --> 00:15:25.620
Three months is not a long time that like condense all this in.
00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:34.799
And so that's kind of what we're getting at is like, okay, you're starting to try to make the curriculum a little bit more efficient based on what you feel is important in landing a developer their job.
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:43.125
Um, , I would argue with reviews that I've seen and with, you know, private messages that people have shared with me.
00:15:43.575 --> 00:15:57.524
Other people have echoed the sentiment that fundamentals was lacking a little bit, where it's like you dive into project work, you get your hands dirty, you get to work with other people, and a lot of people love that about it, but the fundamentals, and even in 2002, it seemed to be lacking a little bit.
00:15:59.294 --> 00:16:04.095
whether you replace data structures and algorithms like that, that's a really hard decision to make.
00:16:04.095 --> 00:16:08.835
And maybe supplemental material and courses afterwards is the solution that they should be aiming for.
00:16:09.404 --> 00:16:15.375
I would also say six months is a very long time for a program where most coding boot camps are like four months.
00:16:15.375 --> 00:16:16.664
So I, I love the length.
00:16:17.654 --> 00:16:18.943
I think they can fit in.
00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:30.090
And I think you can, I've seen data structures and algorithms intertwined, reinforcing fundamental concepts in really good curriculums.
00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:37.289
I don't think it's easy to do, and I think sometimes coding bootcamps will like stuff in like, oh, you gotta learn this because you're gonna get tested with it.
00:16:37.289 --> 00:16:40.679
But it's like in this weird way that doesn't really sink well.
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.919
And like they introduce it too early and people are like, why do I even need to learn this?
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:44.220
Right?
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.309
Like I, you have to understand these fundamentals very.
00:16:48.054 --> 00:16:51.264
before you even dive into, into data structures and algorithms.
00:16:51.264 --> 00:16:52.975
Otherwise, it's a mess.
00:16:53.004 --> 00:16:54.144
It's really tough to learn.
00:16:54.144 --> 00:16:57.085
I can tell you from my experience, um, I struggled.
00:16:57.085 --> 00:17:00.174
I I probably was the worst at it when I came outta my program.
00:17:00.174 --> 00:17:01.044
I had to supplement.
00:17:01.465 --> 00:17:03.205
I'm like, I am gonna fail every single interview.
00:17:03.325 --> 00:17:13.460
The good thing is, as Paul has mentioned, There are companies that, um, well you're, you're usually not going to use that in an entry level position.
00:17:13.578 --> 00:17:19.878
And so like really getting your foundations and fundamentals down, which I had, did help me along in the interview process.
00:17:19.878 --> 00:17:22.608
So, um, it's, it's a hard balance.
00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:23.929
It's a hard balance for sure.
00:17:24.108 --> 00:17:30.529
Um, I do have a follow up question, but, um, anything else you wanna add about the curriculum before we move?
00:17:33.898 --> 00:17:36.839
Oh, I just, what, what Haley said may have changed my mind a little bit.
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:43.769
I think my, my position might have been a little bit biased cuz I tend to do the data instructions and algorithms for fun.
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:47.909
Um, so I think my perspective might have been a, a little bit lacky there.
00:17:47.909 --> 00:17:48.929
So like, thank you Haley.
00:17:48.934 --> 00:17:51.450
I think I, what you said makes sense.
00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:56.549
Um, I mean maybe you found it fun because you had a really good found.
00:17:58.184 --> 00:17:59.474
. Um, yeah,
00:17:59.474 --> 00:18:12.914
I think I, I think a, a found foundation background and, and maybe just that, uh, it, it took me a long time to get over the stigma of like, this is something for academics and, um, realize like, anyone can do this.
00:18:12.919 --> 00:18:14.324
And I, I want everyone to know that.
00:18:14.324 --> 00:18:16.904
But, uh, that, but that's a big thing and it's hard
00:18:17.244 --> 00:18:19.319
like, I like it.
00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:23.400
If you have fun with it, you should explore it, and you're right, everyone can do it.
00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:29.910
Um, I'm not even gonna get into my ran about CS uh, programs, but you're right, like anyone can do this.
00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:41.039
It's, it is an accessible industry as long as you really get a solid foundation down and you understand what employers are hiring for, which is a harder thing to do, and coding boot camps can help guide you with that.
00:18:41.130 --> 00:18:44.640
But so Haley, you had mentioned.
00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:50.250
Um, you had mentioned recursive functions, module three.
00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:57.450
How far, I know you were a little unsure about that, but like, how many months into the program did you start learning that?
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:00.750
Oh,
00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:01.349
geez.
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.019
Um, put you on the sperm . That's,
00:19:04.049 --> 00:19:07.019
yeah, that's, that's hard for me to remember.
00:19:07.109 --> 00:19:10.140
Um, was it towards the end or towards the beginning or middle?
00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:11.789
I would say it would
00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:12.329
be.
00:19:13.595 --> 00:19:16.394
middle, somewhere at the middle
00:19:16.394 --> 00:19:17.234
or after.
00:19:17.555 --> 00:19:19.964
Okay, so.
00:19:21.329 --> 00:19:32.490
. I would, so when I think about, okay, so a, a very good signal from a program that can produce quality software engineers is a high rejection rate.
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.920
And I know that sounds weird and a lot of people that say this industry needs to be more accessible, will argue with me.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.420
But here's my argument for that.
00:19:40.194 --> 00:19:44.484
There is nothing accessible about taking someone's money, 24,000.
00:19:44.484 --> 00:19:46.585
I'm not, I'm just using this as an example, not St.
00:19:46.585 --> 00:19:46.974
Alchemy.
00:19:47.244 --> 00:19:54.295
There's nothing accessible about taking$24,000 from someone and then not preparing them for the actual job market.
00:19:54.325 --> 00:19:54.625
Right?
00:19:55.194 --> 00:19:55.795
There is.
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:08.638
. So many good things and so many good signals that can come out of saying, Hey, before you sign up for this coding bootcamp, tried the self-taught path a little bit, figure it out, and we're gonna provide you some resources, maybe a little bit of an outline, but I wanna see if you even liked this, right?
00:20:08.638 --> 00:20:12.779
I, we shouldn't bring you in unless you enjoy coding.
00:20:12.809 --> 00:20:14.759
You wanna do this full-time, like this is huge.
00:20:14.939 --> 00:20:20.369
We're asking you to quit your full-time job, your part-time job for this full-time curriculum for six months.
00:20:20.369 --> 00:20:22.199
That's insane, right?
00:20:22.529 --> 00:20:29.789
And so before we let you in, , we're gonna have a high rejection rate and we're gonna make sure that you are ready for our program.
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:38.789
That's why quality Boot boot camps, when you have that high rejection rate initially, that's a good signal that produces strong software engineers.
00:20:39.150 --> 00:20:41.490
And so this is what I've seen across many coding boot camps.
00:20:41.494 --> 00:20:56.339
So, , when you mention like recursive functions, usually I would argue higher quality coding boot camps will test up before you even get into the program where you're saying they're actually teaching something like that a little bit down the road, which makes sense.
00:20:56.339 --> 00:21:01.740
So they have a longer curriculum that might be a little bit more beginner friendly, which that can work.
00:21:02.670 --> 00:21:11.220
I would argue a lot of programs will struggle to keep students on the same trajectory, on the same wavelength, and moving forward together in a cohesive.
00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:17.160
when they accept more people, that it is gonna have a variety of skill levels.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.059
So that's essentially kind of what I figured out from reviewing program.
00:21:21.065 --> 00:21:23.009
So let's talk about the application process.
00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:24.900
Do you feel like it was rigorous?
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:26.190
What did they test you over?
00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:27.269
Um, what do you think of it?
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:30.690
you'll
00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:33.180
have to forgive me cuz it's been two years since I started.
00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:33.509
Sure.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:42.839
But my understanding is that it was fairly, I wouldn't say rigorous is, is the word to describe it, but at least in
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:43.380
depth.
00:21:43.875 --> 00:21:44.325
Right.
00:21:44.625 --> 00:21:46.065
So they have the developer
00:21:46.065 --> 00:21:48.404
1 0 1, which is I think like a
00:21:48.404 --> 00:21:50.263
week or something.
00:21:50.294 --> 00:21:52.003
Basically a taste of the program.
00:21:52.003 --> 00:21:53.204
And they say, here, try it.
00:21:53.503 --> 00:21:55.694
If you like it, then we'll have you commit.
00:21:55.694 --> 00:21:58.934
We do not want you to commit unless you like it.
00:21:58.940 --> 00:22:01.365
They pedal that very hard.
00:22:01.484 --> 00:22:04.753
The developer 1 0 1, they're like, please try it before you buy it.
00:22:04.934 --> 00:22:05.234
Right?
00:22:05.625 --> 00:22:07.845
Um, there was a lot of pre-work.
00:22:08.459 --> 00:22:10.740
They, there was a lot of homework upfront.
00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:18.509
I think they had us complete, I mean, they had us set up our environment on our own, you know, obviously pretty straightforward.
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:22.919
Um, complete, I think a code Academy.
00:22:22.919 --> 00:22:29.669
I don't remember the website, but one of those coding tutoring websites, they had us complete, like, you know, the JavaScript module.
00:22:29.669 --> 00:22:31.289
Do all of this beforehand.
00:22:31.648 --> 00:22:34.169
Um, like several, several thing.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:48.704
, I might be stretching my imagination because at the time, to me it seemed like a little interesting, but it might have been like even a month of work or like at least two weeks of like a lot of work before even starting the program.
00:22:49.065 --> 00:23:00.434
And so, yeah, my, my recollection of the onboarding process was that it was fairly thorough and, um, yeah, it, it was, it was in depth.
00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:06.750
Yeah, that was my experience as well.
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:13.799
Um, it was, I feel like at least like 20 to 40 hours worth of pre-work, depending on how quickly you can go through that stuff.
00:23:13.805 --> 00:23:19.019
It was a lot of exercises through Code Academy and.
00:23:19.529 --> 00:23:24.390
Um, there were some other resources too, like documentation to read.
00:23:24.450 --> 00:23:27.089
Um, and there there was the Dev one oh one.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.579
I don't recall there ever being like a placement exam though, or like a pass or fail to get in.
00:23:32.585 --> 00:23:42.869
It was just like a lot of exposure and they did want, um, they wanted screenshots of us passing a hundred percent each of the modules they had assigned to us in Code Academy.
00:23:42.869 --> 00:23:48.450
So we did have to demonstrate that we were passing those assignments through Code Academy.
00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:55.220
Um, and I'm trying to think if there was anything else.
00:23:56.569 --> 00:23:57.199
That might be it.
00:23:57.378 --> 00:23:58.829
I don't think I have anything else to add,
00:23:59.519 --> 00:23:59.869
so.
00:23:59.875 --> 00:24:00.259
Okay.
00:24:00.409 --> 00:24:01.128
Interesting.
00:24:01.128 --> 00:24:16.699
So the pre-work, it sounds like they're trying to set you up a little bit, but they're not really, in my experience, talking with a lot of software engineers, um, everyone is gonna put their own effort into whatever that pre-work is and.
00:24:17.699 --> 00:24:18.689
you can't, I'm sorry.
00:24:18.689 --> 00:24:21.689
You can't trust prospect students to finish the work and do well.
00:24:21.719 --> 00:24:22.559
You like, you just can't.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.449
There are so many people that are gonna cut corners.
00:24:24.449 --> 00:24:28.439
There are so many people that just wanna break into this, uh, career for the money, right?
00:24:28.439 --> 00:24:30.388
And they, they don't even have any enjoyment over it, right?
00:24:30.388 --> 00:24:33.659
They're just trying to get through it and, uh, gimme an A to Z solution.
00:24:33.664 --> 00:24:34.259
Get me a job.
00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:35.159
That's why I'm signing up.
00:24:35.164 --> 00:24:35.819
I'm giving you money.
00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:36.659
Gimme a job for it.
00:24:36.659 --> 00:24:36.959
Right?
00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.359
So there are so many different mindsets my.
00:24:40.650 --> 00:24:45.509
Is that, um, I know students do this at every single program.
00:24:45.509 --> 00:24:50.579
They're gonna complete that pre-work and it probably allows you to retry a couple times.
00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:57.480
Um, if they're not properly assessing you, like they're not having you do a coding challenge with them, they're not pair programming with you.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:59.279
How are they gonna know about your process?
00:24:59.285 --> 00:25:00.029
How are they gonna know?
00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.029
Like, how does this person solve a problem?
00:25:03.490 --> 00:25:05.079
Is challenging for them, right?
00:25:05.259 --> 00:25:06.009
That process.
00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:08.789
This is why data structures and algorithms is introduced.
00:25:08.789 --> 00:25:18.909
If you have a, a consistent rubric on how you grade software engineers, it's not perfect, but you can create a a, um, you can create a consistent and scalable way to.
00:25:19.694 --> 00:25:24.523
Properly assess most software engineers, most good software engineers, and you're gonna let a few fall through the cracks.
00:25:25.034 --> 00:25:29.654
But like examining that process, how someone solves a problem, that's important.
00:25:30.044 --> 00:25:34.634
It also shows how they're gonna handle conflict, how they're gonna handle, uh, pair programming.
00:25:34.634 --> 00:25:36.105
Like what happens when they get stumped?
00:25:36.105 --> 00:25:36.434
Do they get.
00:25:36.835 --> 00:25:40.914
Pissed off, like do they blame someone else because they didn't explain it well enough?
00:25:40.914 --> 00:25:46.285
Or do they hold themselves accountable, um, for essentially what they can improve?
00:25:46.765 --> 00:26:02.214
So my concern is that they're not assessing that properly, but that simply means you're probably gonna have a little bit more of a variety of skill levels going into the program, and then they have to figure out what to do with that from there.
00:26:04.609 --> 00:26:07.859
, do you feel like they Yeah, I, I'm just gonna share that.
00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:08.759
What are your thoughts on that?
00:26:10.289 --> 00:26:10.769
Yeah,
00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.410
I would, oh, sorry, Paul, you go
00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:13.740
ahead.
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.420
Oh, okay.
00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:16.289
Oh, thanks Haley.
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:24.720
Um, I think I tend to agree with Don that maybe the, the screening process, Could, could be more thorough.
00:26:24.930 --> 00:26:34.410
Um, but I'm also torn because, for example, I have a coworker who went through the program, zero experience going in, didn't know anything, and now he's killing it, you know?
00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:35.670
Um, doing great.
00:26:35.670 --> 00:26:45.750
So I guess there is that risk of, do you end up screening out people who through the proper nurturing or, uh, whatever will do really well.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.059
Um, who wouldn't have made it on their.
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:50.880
. So, yeah, I, I'm torn.
00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:56.640
I, I don't know, I don't know what their screening process is like other, other than the pre-work.
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.849
Cuz in my opinion, the, the pre-work is not even a screening process.
00:26:59.855 --> 00:27:02.549
It's, you can just kind of like brute force their way through it.
00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:08.069
So I don't know what they're doing on the back end to investigate whether people are likely to succeed.
00:27:09.029 --> 00:27:09.519
Okay.
00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:16.589
Um, what I will say, um, just.
00:27:18.934 --> 00:27:28.079
what like my thoughts and feelings are about like I, I like that it's not super exclusive.
00:27:28.085 --> 00:27:34.470
Like I like that if somebody wants to get into the program and they're willing to do the work that they have the ability to do that.
00:27:34.474 --> 00:27:35.220
And I think.
00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:45.569
in a way it kind of like speaks to the confidence of the program because like, you know, they're putting out there what their hiring ratings are for people who complete the program.
00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:58.500
So if they're able to bring in people with all of these like varieties of backgrounds and no experience at all, and they're able to like put them through this like six month program and help them get a job, like, I think there's something to be said about that too.
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.799
Um, and.
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.154
, there was a variety of experiences.
00:28:04.154 --> 00:28:09.494
I do remember in my cohort feeling like there were some people who were just like wizards, like math wizards.
00:28:09.494 --> 00:28:12.134
And I was like, holy cow, how am I gonna keep up with this?
00:28:12.164 --> 00:28:23.744
Um, and at the same time, I feel like they had a really, um, I like, I appreciated their approach to it because they were always giving.
00:28:24.554 --> 00:28:29.924
Like, I mean, we always had plenty to work on, but they were also always giving stretch goals.
00:28:30.013 --> 00:28:34.934
Like they had a pretty extensive list of stretch goals that they would give to the more advanced students.
00:28:34.934 --> 00:28:47.984
So it felt like everybody was still getting enough to chew on and to learn, and that nobody was necessarily like, like some people were like too overwhelmed and couldn't keep up, or that some people like weren't getting enough for their money.
00:28:47.984 --> 00:28:48.494
If that makes.
00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:53.190
, like it felt pretty well balanced, like given the different experiences that
00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:53.789
we had.
00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:55.529
Stretch.
00:28:55.529 --> 00:28:56.160
Goals are good.
00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:56.880
Okay.
00:28:57.960 --> 00:28:58.799
What do you think, Cameron?
00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:01.380
Yeah.
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:02.250
Yeah.
00:29:02.250 --> 00:29:05.849
It was a long six months, so I'm just trying to digest my feelings.
00:29:05.855 --> 00:29:08.880
Try to try to recall some of those things.
00:29:08.884 --> 00:29:11.910
Definitely beginner friendly is the word I would use.
00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:11.940
Okay.
00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:14.490
Um, beginner friendly.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:16.529
But also, I mean, it was a
00:29:16.529 --> 00:29:19.500
hard program, at least for me, right?
00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:21.450
I didn't have any experience going in.
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.490
So it's 40 hours a week,
00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:25.950
and that's 40 hours a week, if I remember correctly,
00:29:26.009 --> 00:29:32.130
of, you know, lecture and lab, 40 hours a week, then homework, right?
00:29:32.430 --> 00:29:33.960
If I remember correctly.
00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:36.539
So a bit more than full-time,
00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:40.319
four, six months, you are refactoring your life
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:41.849
completely, you know?
00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:46.724
Um, It is a large commitment, and I think they
00:29:46.724 --> 00:29:49.273
focused more on the
00:29:49.273 --> 00:29:56.654
individual's temperament, you know, as, as a human being, their, um, their tenacity, right?
00:29:56.659 --> 00:29:57.375
Versus
00:29:57.704 --> 00:29:59.654
necessarily technical expertise.
00:30:00.464 --> 00:30:02.684
And, you know, if you're the type of individual
00:30:02.684 --> 00:30:05.804
who will commit for six months, 40 plus hours a
00:30:05.804 --> 00:30:07.814
week, uh, you know,
00:30:07.904 --> 00:30:09.584
I think, I think you're gonna do well.
00:30:09.763 --> 00:30:10.875
And the people who.
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:16.619
Who were committed and were self-motivated, right?
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:26.700
I mean, there's some supplementation you can have through the program, but I, I noticed that it was the self-motivated individuals who succeeded.
00:30:27.089 --> 00:30:34.710
And, um, alchemy seemed to, at least in my cohorts, attract that sort of individual.
00:30:34.710 --> 00:30:35.069
So it.
00:30:36.224 --> 00:30:41.503
most people were self-motivated, willing, and uh, really, really hungry to learn.
00:30:41.595 --> 00:30:45.825
And there was enough to learn like, uh, like Hayley had mentioned.
00:30:45.825 --> 00:30:46.035
So
00:30:47.055 --> 00:30:50.023
why do you think Alchemy attracted that type of individual?
00:30:52.484 --> 00:30:58.125
Yeah, that's, I don't know, kind of, kind of ephemeral, uh, come, kind of comes back to the gut feeling.
00:30:58.575 --> 00:31:05.263
There's a large community surrounding alchemy, and I think the community in general is.
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:12.119
Always, always, always very supportive and um, like-minded in that sense.
00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:18.690
Uh, yeah, there's a large community, very community oriented, so I'd say that's where it comes from.
00:31:18.750 --> 00:31:20.700
The community kind of fosters that.
00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:31.319
Plus the type of people who are gonna go through like a rigorous coding bootcamp, in my opinion, tend to be those sorts of individuals, self-motivated.
00:31:33.045 --> 00:31:33.375
Okay.
00:31:35.414 --> 00:31:36.914
What do you think of the instructors?
00:31:41.984 --> 00:31:42.704
I really enjoyed
00:31:42.704 --> 00:31:46.394
the instructors to break the silence, , uh,
00:31:47.115 --> 00:31:47.503
super
00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:49.484
pleasant, really attentive.
00:31:50.115 --> 00:31:57.315
Um, you know, great individuals as well as, um, instructors.
00:31:57.315 --> 00:32:08.204
I went on to work with one of the instructors at my first company, and that was awesome, you know, so yeah, it comes back to kind of the community oriented thing.
00:32:08.714 --> 00:32:11.144
But yeah, the, the quality of the instructors I think
00:32:11.174 --> 00:32:12.224
was, was really good.
00:32:13.065 --> 00:32:13.335
Okay.
00:32:14.805 --> 00:32:15.013
Yeah.
00:32:15.013 --> 00:32:16.035
I'll second that.
00:32:16.035 --> 00:32:18.644
They are really quality human beings.
00:32:18.674 --> 00:32:21.674
Um, they also like, had a great sense of humor.
00:32:22.329 --> 00:32:27.164
. Um, and not once was I made to feel stupid for a question that I asked.
00:32:27.224 --> 00:32:30.974
Like, I feel like I was one of the people who was always asking questions in class.
00:32:30.974 --> 00:32:32.144
Cause I'm like, what does this mean?
00:32:32.144 --> 00:32:32.834
What does that mean?
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:33.734
What are you doing there?
00:32:33.734 --> 00:32:34.994
Like, I was like, what?
00:32:35.054 --> 00:32:36.794
You know, just taking it all in.
00:32:37.334 --> 00:32:48.494
Um, and like they always welcomed my questions, like, answered them that like, you know, took them seriously like, and would draw out diagrams like if I had to.
00:32:49.684 --> 00:32:50.924
, you know, like, oh, is there any chance?
00:32:50.924 --> 00:32:58.035
Like you could make a bullet point list of what we went through to help, like recap for myself, like they would accommodate that.
00:32:58.035 --> 00:33:03.855
Like they really were supportive of, you know, whatever we needed.
00:33:03.944 --> 00:33:07.085
Um, and yeah, I.
00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:14.355
. I, I really enjoyed my experience and I feel like it was a really, um, it was a really healthy learning environment.
00:33:14.355 --> 00:33:32.835
Like it felt different from like, you know, standard like K through 12 education where it's like very, um, you know, there's like a specific structure that's like power over and not good and like listen to teacher, but they, they would like really encourage discussion and like, yeah.
00:33:32.894 --> 00:33:34.275
It just, it felt really great.
00:33:34.305 --> 00:33:35.144
It was a really great learning
00:33:35.265 --> 00:33:35.664
environ.
00:33:37.138 --> 00:33:37.500
. Okay.
00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:39.809
Good for you for asking questions by the way.
00:33:39.809 --> 00:33:40.740
Not enough people do.
00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:42.609
Thank you.
00:33:46.109 --> 00:33:46.559
How about you, Beth?
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:46.799
I thought,
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:48.299
yeah, thanks.
00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:50.069
Um, I thought the instructors were good.
00:33:50.069 --> 00:33:58.289
I think the, when Alchemy goes to higher instructors, I get the strong feeling that they focus more on the relatability side, uh, the human side.
00:33:58.289 --> 00:34:00.990
Uh, not to say they're not technically proficient.
00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:01.710
They all are.
00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:02.909
These are all they.
00:34:03.854 --> 00:34:09.375
Qualified software engineers, people who know what they're doing, but in their personalities, in their teaching.
00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:19.483
It, it's definitely more focused on the relating than da, da, da, you know, these are the technical steps, which of course they also cover.
00:34:19.574 --> 00:34:31.275
But, and I, I think that just fits with the overall culture of the bootcamp, where the focus is more on collaboration and, um, people stuff maybe, than.
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:40.318
the very technical technicals, you know, like, uh, something like Code Smith or something to give an example of where it's uh, contrast
00:34:40.318 --> 00:34:40.739
there not,
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:44.909
not saying one's better than the other, that that's just, uh, how I
00:34:44.909 --> 00:34:45.420
perceived
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:45.568
it.
00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:47.909
Sure, sure makes sense.
00:34:48.298 --> 00:34:59.159
Um, I got startled, I, in my recording software there's an alert, so if I get a donate or if I get like a follow or something like that, I hear this alert go off and it spooks me every time cause it's still Halloween.
00:35:00.014 --> 00:35:03.105
and it just went off and I'm trying to identify where it is.
00:35:03.315 --> 00:35:04.815
I cut all my scenes up.
00:35:04.815 --> 00:35:07.454
So anyways, anyone that's listening, watching, that's what that was.
00:35:07.905 --> 00:35:10.284
Um, okay.
00:35:11.144 --> 00:35:28.605
It sounds like they bring in instructors that are very nurturing, that, that care, that have a good sense of humor, that are, um, they make you feel welcome in asking questions, cuz that's one of the best things that you can do, especially if you're spending $24,000, right?
00:35:28.605 --> 00:35:32.204
So, um, I, I make this argument all the time.
00:35:32.715 --> 00:35:34.784
There are stupid questions in the world.
00:35:35.114 --> 00:35:37.465
I have never heard a stupid question asked at a coding.
00:35:38.789 --> 00:35:41.760
. Just because you don't know something does not mean you shouldn't ask it.
00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:47.400
And most people, they are like, if you ask a question, others have that question.
00:35:47.405 --> 00:35:48.630
They're just not brave enough to ask.
00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:50.099
I think it's a good habit to build up.
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:55.829
Um, and I saw you like shaking your head, Karen, when she was talking about like, it's important to ask those questions, right?
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:56.699
Huge.
00:35:56.699 --> 00:35:57.000
Yeah.
00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:57.989
And they were, they were good
00:35:57.989 --> 00:35:58.530
about that.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:35:59.519
Good.
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.849
Um, how big were your cohorts?
00:36:04.349 --> 00:36:04.619
. I was
00:36:05.059 --> 00:36:10.559
actually gonna say, um, my cohort was about 50 people, so Wow.
00:36:11.309 --> 00:36:14.400
Big, big cohort, right?
00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.449
And.
00:36:17.414 --> 00:36:20.625
That sometimes made it a little difficult.
00:36:20.864 --> 00:36:41.355
So while the instructors were great and the TAs were great, sometimes asking those questions was like maybe a tomorrow thing,, and it seemed that you have to be kind of the bold individual or the kind of, like I said, self-motivated individual to.
00:36:42.204 --> 00:36:44.155
To kind of get the instructor time.
00:36:44.425 --> 00:36:47.364
That was my personal experience with a large cohort.
00:36:47.755 --> 00:36:53.155
Um, but yeah, pretty, pretty large.
00:36:53.155 --> 00:36:56.605
Sometimes there was a bit of competition.
00:36:56.155 --> 00:36:56.605
Don Hansen: Sure.
00:36:56.704 --> 00:36:57.925
I, I, and I can see that.
00:36:57.925 --> 00:37:00.505
I mean, that's a, that's a very large class size.
00:37:00.565 --> 00:37:01.315
Um, what about you?
00:37:01.315 --> 00:37:01.525
Two
00:37:04.184 --> 00:37:04.664
14 people?
00:37:04.885 --> 00:37:06.824
I believe, uh, there's a lot.
00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:08.489
Uh, seasonal variation.
00:37:08.489 --> 00:37:09.449
I think at class size.
00:37:09.449 --> 00:37:14.969
I was the summer, uh, June cohort, so I think that's probably a big part of it.
00:37:15.619 --> 00:37:16.108
Okay.
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:17.818
How about you Hailey?
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:21.000
My cohort was 16 people.
00:37:21.389 --> 00:37:23.398
Um, so also pretty small.
00:37:23.403 --> 00:37:26.369
It felt, um, it felt like a good size.
00:37:26.398 --> 00:37:27.659
I can't imagine 50.
00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:29.818
That sounds like a lot.
00:37:29.824 --> 00:37:31.739
Cameron, I can't even imagine.
00:37:32.250 --> 00:37:35.820
Um, Yeah, I feel like asking questions.
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:38.820
I feel like my experience asking questions would also look different in
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.050
a cohort of that size.
00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:42.059
Yeah, I just double checked.
00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:47.460
The Slack channel has 47 people, so including instructors probably like 45.
00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:48.900
So approximately 50.
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:57.210
Um, okay, so you did bring this up when I reached out to you.
00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:00.239
. Um, yeah.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:03.059
And personal felt like there was a competition.
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:07.798
Um, you had also mentioned, uh, you wanna talk about the high school thing?
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:10.858
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:11.009 --> 00:38:25.289
And this isn't too, like, say it's a bad thing, but for my personality, I am inherently a very, uh, , like introverted individual.
00:38:25.528 --> 00:38:48.255
So sometimes it felt like a little bit cliquey, and then when it was time to do break off and do the, um, , like the collaborative work, I was like, ah, like I'm not really fitting into a particular clique, like how do I navigate this social atmosphere, It's like, it's kind of lame to say that, that I was experiencing that.
00:38:48.554 --> 00:38:48.824
Right.
00:38:48.824 --> 00:38:49.965
But I don't know.
00:38:49.965 --> 00:39:01.608
It did feel like a little bit like high school was such a large cohort and I was like, oh, , I'm having to navigate these like social things, . . So yeah, that was just a little bit of my experience.
00:39:01.608 --> 00:39:02.480
It wasn't bad.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.400
Like I connected with a lot, a lot of people like really, really well.
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:11.730
That was one thing that actually stood out to me is everyone's willingness to.
00:39:12.735 --> 00:39:16.724
Connect and be open with strangers basically.
00:39:16.994 --> 00:39:26.565
Um, but at times I was like, oh, this is, this is socially taxing as well as technically like taxing.
00:39:25.795 --> 00:39:26.565
Don Hansen: So yeah.
00:39:27.465 --> 00:39:27.824
Okay.
00:39:28.304 --> 00:39:29.653
That's, that's a unique experience.
00:39:29.653 --> 00:39:30.525
I'm glad you shared it.
00:39:30.614 --> 00:39:33.568
Um, . I felt like that in college.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.369
I felt like that at my coding bootcamp.
00:39:35.369 --> 00:39:38.668
I am someone that, um, very much used to be introverted.
00:39:38.668 --> 00:39:40.739
I, I tell people all the time, they don't believe me.
00:39:40.739 --> 00:39:45.838
I still am, like my energy gets sucked outta me when I'm in huge groups all the time and Right.
00:39:45.844 --> 00:39:50.969
So, and I even have techniques to manage my mental energy when I'm, um, doing live streams.
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:53.250
And so I do my best to do that.
00:39:53.250 --> 00:39:55.378
But that's, that's important.
00:39:55.378 --> 00:39:56.338
And I think that's also.
00:39:57.284 --> 00:40:05.144
And I'm, I almost hope they didn't hold your hand to be able to solve that problem, because that's a problem you have to solve on your own.
00:40:05.534 --> 00:40:07.003
And you will deal with that in the workplace.
00:40:07.003 --> 00:40:16.483
You know, I was about to say, since you started that, I was like, it has helped me navigating both of my jobs, and especially the second one.
00:40:16.934 --> 00:40:21.764
The second one is a lot more business integrated than my first one.
00:40:22.184 --> 00:40:27.375
So, uh, there I'm talking to like a fair amount of business people in my day-to-day and navigating.
00:40:28.094 --> 00:40:31.664
Literally these different segmented parts of the organization.
00:40:31.664 --> 00:40:33.224
So , yeah.
00:40:33.494 --> 00:40:40.034
Since you mentioned that it, it did help, I think, uh, kind of teach me that skill.
00:40:40.125 --> 00:40:40.543
So.
00:40:41.085 --> 00:40:41.443
Good.
00:40:42.014 --> 00:40:42.733
I'm glad to hear that.
00:40:43.454 --> 00:40:44.903
What do you think of the career services?
00:40:49.184 --> 00:40:50.114
I think it's really
00:40:50.114 --> 00:40:50.894
supportive.
00:40:51.134 --> 00:40:56.474
Um, it's pretty extensive, like going through six months and like we were.
00:40:56.894 --> 00:41:14.324
Um, we are connected with career services, like from module one, although like the work that we were doing with them, like started off small, like, you know, here's a resume template, like get some drafts in, you know, like create a LinkedIn account and like we would build on that throughout the program.
00:41:14.414 --> 00:41:22.125
Um, but we covered a lot, like not only like resumes and LinkedIn, um, but.
00:41:22.849 --> 00:41:36.619
Being connected with, um, other people in the community, like alums, like for advice on what their experience was like, like what was challenging for them while they were in the program, what their experience was like getting a job.
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:38.630
Um, and.
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:47.400
You know, encouragement, like we were required to schedule networking events and like to make new connections consistently.
00:41:47.429 --> 00:41:58.110
Like towards the end, like our last module, like we were being asked to make five new LinkedIn connections every week and attend at least three networking events like.
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:04.079
before the module was over, so we had the whole module, but like they really emphasized the importance of networking.
00:42:04.590 --> 00:42:12.719
Um, they talked about different tips for it, depending on whether you were introverted or extroverted, like to find a buddy or like to find an online event.
00:42:13.139 --> 00:42:27.809
Um, and like even after graduating the program, career services is still very like connected and like checks in and like offering resources for, um, support along the the job.
00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:29.550
Okay.
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:31.559
Has been my experience.
00:42:34.889 --> 00:42:41.340
Uh, I didn't interact a lot with career services post bootcamp because I, uh, ended up getting a job fairly quickly.
00:42:41.344 --> 00:42:44.989
But my experience of them, like cuz they career services kind of like.
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.128
You have things that don't happen very often early on, and then it kicks in more and more.
00:42:50.128 --> 00:42:53.429
And then the final week of the program is purely career services.
00:42:53.818 --> 00:43:01.889
My experiences was that they were helpful, you know, like standard career services stuff help you get your resume looking nice.
00:43:01.949 --> 00:43:03.809
Uh, advice on networking.
00:43:04.378 --> 00:43:05.699
Uh, if there's one.
00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:07.969
Thing that was a little bit iffy for me.
00:43:07.969 --> 00:43:12.259
It was, there was a lot of employee turnover in the career services department while I was there.
00:43:12.259 --> 00:43:14.269
And I mean, I'm not privy to the why.
00:43:14.269 --> 00:43:15.318
It could be coincidence.
00:43:15.318 --> 00:43:16.759
I, I have no idea.
00:43:17.090 --> 00:43:22.340
But that, it was a little confusing cuz at any given time it was kind of like, who am I?
00:43:22.369 --> 00:43:23.659
Who is this person again?
00:43:23.869 --> 00:43:26.329
It's now this person, who am I supposed to talk to?
00:43:26.329 --> 00:43:27.110
Who's in charge of what?
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:29.778
So maybe that was just a fluke with my cohort.
00:43:29.778 --> 00:43:31.699
But uh, that was a thing.
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:33.679
But overall, yeah, solid.
00:43:36.150 --> 00:43:36.360
.
00:43:36.150 --> 00:43:36.360
Don Hansen: Yeah.
00:43:36.809 --> 00:43:37.170
Okay.
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:39.360
Yeah.
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:40.559
Uh, I'll second
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.300
on the turnover thing.
00:43:42.329 --> 00:43:45.059
Thankfully I had the same career services individual,
00:43:45.210 --> 00:43:47.039
but I experienced some instructor
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:53.489
turnover during my cohort and with a large cohort it there, it was a little bit bumpy.
00:43:53.849 --> 00:44:06.329
Um, but as far as the career services, honestly, Was great and it should be great because it behooves them to, you know, have you land a job and to
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:07.679
have them provide you with
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:09.119
the resources to land a job.
00:44:09.125 --> 00:44:11.309
So their numbers are, are great.
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:15.059
Um, yeah, I worked with one career services person.
00:44:15.389 --> 00:44:16.380
She was amazing.
00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:20.159
She actually landed me, like, specifically landed me.
00:44:20.585 --> 00:44:26.614
Uh, my, my first job, you know, warm introduction, helped facilitate that.
00:44:27.065 --> 00:44:29.945
Uh, so I mean, it worked out for me.
00:44:30.215 --> 00:44:34.565
All of the resources were great in my opinion.
00:44:34.625 --> 00:44:34.954
You know,
00:44:35.045 --> 00:44:37.235
resume workshops, LinkedIn, stuff like that.
00:44:37.684 --> 00:44:41.045
Uh, high focus on networking, so, yeah.
00:44:43.894 --> 00:44:44.255
Okay.
00:44:44.554 --> 00:44:45.485
Sounds pretty solid.
00:44:45.905 --> 00:44:52.409
Um, I've heard a bit of turnover, uh, from people that have graduated earlier than you, Haley.
00:44:53.010 --> 00:45:00.719
Um, I get this gut feeling they pr like even just looking at some reviews of like people pissed off at the program.
00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:03.239
Um, you two, please don't demonetize me.
00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:05.760
People that, that are angry at the program.
00:45:05.764 --> 00:45:07.440
Um, a lot of it was like turnover.
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:12.360
A lot of it was, um, it was curriculum stuff.
00:45:12.989 --> 00:45:16.829
Um, I didn't really see anything mentioned about career services.
00:45:17.278 --> 00:45:23.878
Um, there was some discrepancies about like, or not discrepancies, but uh, variety of skill levels that made it a little bit more difficult.
00:45:24.298 --> 00:45:29.278
Um, but I, I mainly like, people would echo the sentiment of turnover.
00:45:29.309 --> 00:45:33.298
Like it really screwed up their cohort and made it much, much more difficult than it needed to be.
00:45:33.929 --> 00:45:38.068
Um, so I'm, I'm saying this cuz I'm, I'm hoping they got some of those things resolved.
00:45:38.068 --> 00:45:44.775
Sometimes it's hard to figure out that turnover, but, um, Yeah, sometimes it's, it's difficult to figure that out.
00:45:44.775 --> 00:45:45.914
Instructors can leave.
00:45:46.275 --> 00:45:48.164
It's hard to vet instructors sometimes.
00:45:48.195 --> 00:45:56.715
Um, some maybe they're not doing a good enough job vetting instructors to be able to like look at longevity and like a really good cultural fit with a program.
00:45:56.744 --> 00:46:04.204
Maybe they are, but, um, I think it's still recent enough where people should be a little cautious about that turnover.
00:46:04.204 --> 00:46:14.585
And I don't, I think it's okay to ask how long your instructor's been there, get to know your instructor, talk to your instructor, ask your instructor questions if they're not even willing to do that, um, that's a red flag in my opinion.
00:46:15.065 --> 00:46:17.855
So I like talk to admissions, talk to the instructor.
00:46:17.855 --> 00:46:20.795
You're paying a lot of money for this, so I, I would just have that conversation with them.
00:46:21.483 --> 00:46:22.414
Um, yeah.
00:46:22.414 --> 00:46:24.963
And even outcomes sir.org is down.
00:46:24.963 --> 00:46:25.625
Do you guys know what sir?
00:46:25.625 --> 00:46:26.014
Dot org.
00:46:27.838 --> 00:46:28.329
. Okay.
00:46:29.983 --> 00:46:34.483
, the, the general advice that I give don't ever, ever trust self claimed outcomes.
00:46:34.483 --> 00:46:37.034
Ever, always ask for a third party vetted.
00:46:37.125 --> 00:46:43.003
Uh, so ask who, like what third party, what maybe a financial institution vetted their outcomes.
00:46:43.394 --> 00:46:52.423
Um, I've seen so many outcomes and marketing materials that are just slightly different that kind of make you feel like, oh, 80% of software engineers are getting a job after a program.
00:46:52.454 --> 00:46:54.974
Oh, 80% of people that use tech.
00:46:55.684 --> 00:46:56.405
Oh, okay.
00:46:56.405 --> 00:46:56.644
Right.
00:46:56.644 --> 00:47:03.304
And it's easy to read that stuff and just have a very different image in your mind, which sir.org is a really good standard.
00:47:03.335 --> 00:47:10.324
It requires coding boot camps to, um, it basically has a high bar for integrity to submit your outcomes.
00:47:10.355 --> 00:47:17.945
Um, I would've loved to check if those outcomes were submitted and the site is down, so we're gonna skip that portion.
00:47:18.335 --> 00:47:23.974
Um, and so, um, yeah, I, I feel like we went over a lot of what I went through.
00:47:24.554 --> 00:47:27.005
Um, when I look at reviews, some of them just seem personal.
00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.914
I, I actually wanna kind of defend alchemy a little bit.
00:47:30.914 --> 00:47:36.494
Some of these reviews, like you have to, if you just see nothing but five stars, um, it's, it's false.
00:47:36.494 --> 00:47:38.594
It doesn't give you an accurate representation of the program.
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:39.554
That's just my experience.
00:47:39.885 --> 00:47:47.985
And also, if you see like a one star people just venting, cause they had a really bad experience, they'd probably got into some argument with the, you know, like that's a very personal thing.
00:47:48.074 --> 00:47:49.784
And you have to take that with a grain of salt as.
00:47:50.474 --> 00:47:56.744
Um, so try to look for, you know, two to four star reviews or people that aren't making it so personal.
00:47:57.494 --> 00:48:06.074
And I think that's gonna give you, um, more, um, of a, um, information that's gonna resemble most likely what you're going to experience at the program.
00:48:06.525 --> 00:48:11.175
Um, cause I am seeing kind of a, a mix of reviews, but, um, yeah, that's it.
00:48:11.175 --> 00:48:12.184
I asked a lot of questions.
00:48:12.190 --> 00:48:19.980
So, uh, before we do end this and do our outros, um, , what could they improve?
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:23.599
Let's talk about constructive criticism and feel free to think about it.
00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:39.480
No programmers.
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:40.710
I think, go ahead.
00:48:41.730 --> 00:48:42.090
Sorry.
00:48:42.090 --> 00:48:42.690
I, yeah.
00:48:42.690 --> 00:48:44.869
If there's just one thing I, that I.
00:48:45.375 --> 00:48:47.715
Coming back to, it's the fundamentals.
00:48:47.744 --> 00:48:57.525
I really think in six months I agree with you, people shouldn't be going out the door without understanding of things like, uh, function, scope or whatever.
00:48:57.525 --> 00:49:04.034
I mean, I don't even know if that's, you know, I'm just thinking of like, like JavaScript if language of choices, JavaScript, whatever.
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:12.284
Just things like flow control, like logically how data flows through a program, how functions work, how scope works, like stuff like that.
00:49:12.405 --> 00:49:13.994
Programming fundamentals should.
00:49:14.715 --> 00:49:18.585
Covered more solidly if that's one thing I would focus on.
00:49:18.585 --> 00:49:18.824
Yeah.
00:49:18.824 --> 00:49:21.014
Six months that should happen.
00:49:22.364 --> 00:49:23.114
That's good feedback.
00:49:30.195 --> 00:49:30.525
Yeah.
00:49:30.914 --> 00:49:31.244
Yeah.
00:49:31.244 --> 00:49:32.594
I'll, I'll echo that.
00:49:33.195 --> 00:49:39.465
Um, there's a lot of self-study involved, I think for
00:49:39.465 --> 00:49:40.545
me personally,
00:49:40.635 --> 00:49:41.385
to.
00:49:43.550 --> 00:49:48.480
Get, get up to that level of confidence for higher ability.
00:49:49.050 --> 00:50:00.630
Um, I think, yeah, I think some refining of, of the curriculum and to Haley's point, you know, it seems like they may be refining that over time.
00:50:00.989 --> 00:50:03.840
Uh, yeah.
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:07.800
Other than that, maybe, maybe a bit more stringent on those class sizes.
00:50:08.324 --> 00:50:10.423
Uh, being a bit more
00:50:10.664 --> 00:50:11.264
selective,
00:50:11.264 --> 00:50:18.525
it seemed, my understanding was that there may have been just like staffing, like they had
00:50:18.525 --> 00:50:20.923
to, you know, take
00:50:20.929 --> 00:50:24.585
in, put all 50 in this one particular cohort.
00:50:24.943 --> 00:50:26.775
I don't know, maybe it was atypical.
00:50:26.894 --> 00:50:31.724
I'm not, I can't speak to their numbers, but yeah, that, that did make it a little more difficult.
00:50:32.025 --> 00:50:33.974
Uh, but again, double-edged sword.
00:50:33.974 --> 00:50:42.539
Did learn a lot of social stuff, but yeah, other than, , nothing much else to say, the turnover, but that was already
00:50:42.539 --> 00:50:43.260
mentioned, so.
00:50:43.829 --> 00:50:44.130
Okay.
00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:45.239
That's good feedback.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:49.469
Yeah.
00:50:49.469 --> 00:50:53.639
I guess like, um, one thing.
00:50:55.784 --> 00:51:01.664
would be like a little more like driving home of like the test driven development.
00:51:01.693 --> 00:51:05.295
I mean, that is something they do strongly emphasize throughout the program.
00:51:05.594 --> 00:51:09.375
Um, but I feel like we.
00:51:10.590 --> 00:51:20.670
Like when it was introduced to us in the beginning, it was presented to us and I think as a bunch of like newbies, we were all kind of overwhelmed and confused about how it worked.
00:51:20.670 --> 00:51:25.769
And then it was sort of just like set aside for that module so that we could kind of.
00:51:27.090 --> 00:51:29.400
Focus on developing other technical skills.
00:51:29.789 --> 00:51:33.119
And it did come back in later modules.
00:51:33.150 --> 00:51:41.190
Um, but I feel like it would've been helpful for me to kind of like really strengthen that, um, that that routine of like writing the testing.
00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:44.969
Cause, because then I knew like, oh, this is something that's important that I should be doing.
00:51:44.969 --> 00:51:51.480
But it also like wasn't having that reinforced like, um, accountability for doing it in the beginning.
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:55.860
And it was sort of just like remembering later on that we would need to do it.
00:51:57.690 --> 00:51:58.019
for me.
00:51:58.025 --> 00:51:59.880
They were really anal about that.
00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:10.380
I feel like the, the TAs and the instructors, they, they really drove that whole, at least for our cohort . I was like, I was like scared when I was like, ah, I forgot to write a test.
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:12.989
No, . That's interesting.
00:52:14.190 --> 00:52:15.239
Um, okay.
00:52:15.300 --> 00:52:18.030
I think within six months, that's perfectly doable.
00:52:18.150 --> 00:52:19.289
I think that's good feedback.
00:52:19.710 --> 00:52:24.000
Um, Hailey, you had mentioned, I didn't really hear you talk about it, but you had mentioned.
00:52:25.034 --> 00:52:29.985
That you like, your least favorite part was like observing some shifts in staffing.
00:52:30.614 --> 00:52:32.775
Um, did you experience.
00:52:35.175 --> 00:52:35.519
. Um,
00:52:35.550 --> 00:52:49.769
yeah, I think it was just kind of like echoing what Cameron and Paul had expressed where it's like there wasn't, I don't feel like I was too strongly affected, like none of my instructors left in the middle of a module or anything.
00:52:49.775 --> 00:52:51.780
So I did have that consistency.
00:52:52.079 --> 00:53:00.300
Um, but I just, like, I knew that there was an instructor teaching like a different cohort ahead of us that had left and so.
00:53:01.083 --> 00:53:03.634
Meant that we would not have that instructor.
00:53:03.634 --> 00:53:08.884
We would have a different instructor, but it didn't really interrupt what we were doing.
00:53:08.943 --> 00:53:11.344
It was more of just like, oh, like that's different.
00:53:11.344 --> 00:53:14.014
I wonder how that's going to compare, if that makes
00:53:14.014 --> 00:53:14.494
sense.
00:53:14.614 --> 00:53:15.224
Gotcha.
00:53:15.483 --> 00:53:15.875
Okay.
00:53:15.875 --> 00:53:18.543
A little jarring, not necessarily a negative experience.
00:53:18.903 --> 00:53:19.264
Yeah.
00:53:19.653 --> 00:53:19.684
Okay.
00:53:20.764 --> 00:53:23.344
Um, you had mentioned, um, also with the curriculum.
00:53:26.565 --> 00:53:27.164
um,
00:53:27.255 --> 00:53:27.795
oh yeah.
00:53:27.795 --> 00:53:38.025
Be, uh, that was because when one of the instructors left, there was a brief, like, merging of cohorts, so like two cohorts.
00:53:38.355 --> 00:53:55.934
Um, like we would take modules in different orders so that when the instructor like switch happened, like our education would still be, um, , like, how do I explain it?
00:53:55.940 --> 00:54:04.934
Like we would, we took, um, I, I don't really know how to explain it.
00:54:04.934 --> 00:54:19.675
Like, other than just, it switched to the order of, of the modules that we were taking, like, um, advanced full stack, like right after learning React versus like splitting, like having learning backend and sequel in the middle of.
00:54:20.264 --> 00:54:28.184
. So like some cohorts got to learn the, the advanced full stack right after learning React, and it was all really fresh and they could remember that really well.
00:54:28.184 --> 00:54:34.215
And then like our cohort learned sequel in the middle, like front end, back end, and then advanced full stack.
00:54:34.304 --> 00:54:40.574
And I think like there were different benefits for each cohort as to whether that was helpful or not.
00:54:40.574 --> 00:54:46.634
But it's all like, I don't know, like negligible differences.
00:54:46.634 --> 00:54:48.434
I feel like, like our, we
00:54:48.434 --> 00:54:49.545
still have the same module.
00:54:51.134 --> 00:54:52.844
I would, I appreciate you sharing that.
00:54:52.844 --> 00:54:54.855
I would argue that's not negligible.
00:54:54.914 --> 00:55:01.094
I find that there is a difference in quality of programs and that flow matters big time.
00:55:01.784 --> 00:55:05.804
Um, it sounds like they probably just adapted with the turnover as much as they could.
00:55:05.864 --> 00:55:06.134
Right?
00:55:06.139 --> 00:55:06.914
They did the best they could.
00:55:06.914 --> 00:55:07.903
And that, that's fine.
00:55:08.445 --> 00:55:11.894
I would argue that's gonna be relevant to your experience as a student.
00:55:11.894 --> 00:55:13.304
And I would challenge.
00:55:13.710 --> 00:55:15.269
The longevity of the instructors area.
00:55:15.269 --> 00:55:21.780
So if that's still happening recently, I think that's worth the question to admissions, um, challenge them on that.
00:55:21.809 --> 00:55:27.420
Like, these are all things, like we mentioned, several things that you should be challenging admissions on, like ask these questions.
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:28.860
You're paying a lot of money for this.
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.719
Um, I think it's relevant.
00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:34.829
Um, I'm glad you didn't have like a terrible experience and you kind of flowed with it.
00:55:34.889 --> 00:55:39.360
I've met a lot of students that haven't had that great of an experience when that flow is altered.
00:55:40.139 --> 00:55:42.164
Um, Okay.
00:55:42.673 --> 00:55:43.454
That's pretty much it.
00:55:43.695 --> 00:55:45.525
Gotta do my critical thing, of course.
00:55:45.585 --> 00:55:48.855
Um, but yeah, I, I think that's pretty much it.
00:55:48.884 --> 00:55:54.673
Um, is there like anything major you think we should add or do we pretty much cover everything?
00:55:58.153 --> 00:55:59.173
Pretty much covered everything.
00:56:00.539 --> 00:56:01.409
Okay, cool.
00:56:01.590 --> 00:56:02.250
Let's end it there.
00:56:02.610 --> 00:56:05.219
Uh, before we do end it, I like to do my outros.
00:56:05.278 --> 00:56:08.940
Um, and seriously, thank you so much for coming on those watching.
00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:12.869
I always get a mixed feedback, uh, or mixed bag of feedback.
00:56:12.929 --> 00:56:17.009
Um, I'm meant to be, remember, I'm meant to be critical.
00:56:17.014 --> 00:56:18.269
That's literally my brand.
00:56:18.269 --> 00:56:22.769
So I'm sure I'm gonna get some dms and emails my way, and that's okay.
00:56:23.278 --> 00:56:28.679
But, um, Paul, uh, if people wanted to reach out to you and anything else you wanna shout out, where could they.
00:56:30.389 --> 00:56:31.769
Uh, you can reach me
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:33.960
on LinkedIn, Paul Brewbaker.
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:36.300
Uh, don't really have anything to shout out.
00:56:36.599 --> 00:56:43.260
Just, uh, I think that if you want to be a software developer, you should absolutely do
00:56:43.260 --> 00:56:43.469
it.
00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:44.070
That's awesome.
00:56:44.820 --> 00:56:45.090
Cool.
00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:46.500
How about you, Cameron?
00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:48.539
Same deal.
00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:48.869
Yeah.
00:56:48.869 --> 00:56:49.860
Hit me up on LinkedIn.
00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:53.280
Cameron Zimmerman, uh, set up a coffee chat.
00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:54.780
You know, let's talk.
00:56:54.869 --> 00:56:55.590
I'd love to.
00:56:56.309 --> 00:56:58.619
You know, talk to you about my experience.
00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:04.409
I think everyone who is a diligent worker is capable of being a software engineer.
00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:06.329
Uh, so go ahead.
00:57:06.898 --> 00:57:07.500
You know, do it.
00:57:08.338 --> 00:57:08.668
Love it.
00:57:09.088 --> 00:57:09.639
How about you, Hailey?
00:57:10.965 --> 00:57:11.414
Yeah.
00:57:11.474 --> 00:57:15.795
Uh, to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn at Haley Steiny.
00:57:16.125 --> 00:57:22.574
And yeah, happy to connect with anybody who wants to talk more about my experience, ask questions.
00:57:22.635 --> 00:57:27.494
Um, I also fully support anybody pursuing software development who doesn't come from a
00:57:27.500 --> 00:57:28.635
technical background.
00:57:29.804 --> 00:57:30.405
Sounds good.
00:57:30.945 --> 00:57:31.965
All right, well that's it.
00:57:32.054 --> 00:57:33.824
Um, hope you enjoyed the episode.
00:57:34.125 --> 00:57:37.364
Uh, feel free to let me know what you think of the comments if you're watching this on YouTube.
00:57:37.755 --> 00:57:44.025
Um, and I challenge you, I challenge graduates students to share something, share feedback.
00:57:44.550 --> 00:57:47.670
Because every single program I look at, it's all five stars.
00:57:47.670 --> 00:57:48.599
That's just not true.
00:57:48.605 --> 00:57:49.590
You know, it's not true.
00:57:49.650 --> 00:58:00.269
So, um, I think coding boot camps, um, I still think in terms of alternative education, coding boot camps are your best shot at getting a developer position.
00:58:00.750 --> 00:58:03.599
And so, but we also have to.
00:58:04.394 --> 00:58:08.023
Hold these coding boot camps accountable for a lot of their marketing materials.
00:58:08.023 --> 00:58:11.414
We have to hold them accountable, um, for different practices.
00:58:11.418 --> 00:58:14.083
So, uh, please share constructive criticism in the comments.
00:58:14.114 --> 00:58:15.494
Uh, just make sure it's constructive.
00:58:15.494 --> 00:58:16.903
But yeah, that's it.
00:58:16.963 --> 00:58:19.844
Uh, Paul Cameron Haley, thanks so much for coming up.
00:58:21.523 --> 00:58:21.884
Thanks for
00:58:21.889 --> 00:58:22.934
having, see everything.