WEBVTT
00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:12.300
Welcome to Doing What Works, Innovations and
00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.900
Homeless Services, the podcast that takes a closer
00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:17.079
look at one of our community's most urgent challenges.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.839
I'm your host, Ashanti Blaize-Hopkins, Interim
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:21.839
Associate Dean at Santa Monica College's Center
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:24.600
for Media and Design. Each episode will engage
00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.679
with experts, policymakers, and educators to
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.679
uncover the history, explore effective policies,
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.140
and highlight the efforts of those working to
00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:35.719
create change. Joining us on the podcast today
00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:37.859
is someone who has been an innovator in the tech
00:00:37.859 --> 00:00:40.399
industry for decades. He has launched and sold
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.780
numerous tech companies through the years that
00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:44.979
have provided interactive network and Internet
00:00:44.979 --> 00:00:48.600
solutions for health care, energy, defense, homeland
00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:51.619
security and public safety industries. He is
00:00:51.619 --> 00:00:54.619
also an expert on topics related to health technology,
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:58.140
cybersecurity and artificial intelligence. He
00:00:58.140 --> 00:00:59.820
has a bachelor's degree from Brown University
00:00:59.820 --> 00:01:03.119
and an MBA from Yale School of Management. Currently,
00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:05.340
he is the executive director of Clare Matrix,
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.939
an organization that provides compassionate and
00:01:07.939 --> 00:01:10.099
evidence -based treatment for those struggling
00:01:10.099 --> 00:01:12.900
with drugs, alcohol, and related behavioral issues.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.140
Matt Walton, thank you so much for joining us
00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.239
on the podcast. It's my pleasure. Delighted to
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.500
be here. Our first question for every one of
00:01:20.500 --> 00:01:22.799
our Doing What Works podcast guests is always
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.099
the same. What was your first job ever, and how
00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:28.700
does what you learned in that position inform
00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:30.739
doing what works for you now in your current
00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:35.719
role? Well, my first job ever was actually working
00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:40.920
as a stock boy in a shirt factory in New Haven,
00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:44.659
Connecticut. And just to really date myself,
00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:48.620
I was being paid the minimum wage at that time,
00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:52.620
which, as I recall, was $1 .38 an hour. Oh, my
00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:56.239
goodness. So that sort of dates me a little bit
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.049
anyway. But I don't really, I mean, that was
00:02:00.049 --> 00:02:05.890
my first job. My first actual real job was when
00:02:05.890 --> 00:02:11.789
I was going to college and I had to pay for my
00:02:11.789 --> 00:02:16.650
education. And I was fortunate in that my father
00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:20.370
was a geologist and consulted on very large scale
00:02:20.370 --> 00:02:24.210
construction projects. And I was able to get
00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:30.810
a job as a miner. on a tunnel project at 11 ,000
00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:35.169
feet in the Rocky Mountains at what's called
00:02:35.169 --> 00:02:37.250
the Eisenhower Tunnel. It's actually the highest
00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:40.650
tunnel in the United States. And what that really
00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:44.110
taught me was when you work in that kind of environment,
00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.669
which is very physically demanding and potentially
00:02:47.669 --> 00:02:50.750
dangerous, you have to have your wits about you.
00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:53.610
You know, you have to be aware of your environment,
00:02:53.669 --> 00:02:56.889
your surroundings. And that to me is really been
00:02:56.889 --> 00:02:59.250
kind of the essence of most of what I've done
00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:02.389
for the rest of my career is I've been very fortunate
00:03:02.389 --> 00:03:04.699
to do a lot of different things. So let's talk
00:03:04.699 --> 00:03:06.960
about that part of it, you know, this idea of
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:10.180
you jumping from one thing to another. You focus
00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:11.759
on one thing, you kind of get it done, you move
00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.800
on to the next thing. You have quite a background,
00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.240
especially in the tech world, and have found
00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:18.740
ways to use technology to address various challenges
00:03:18.740 --> 00:03:20.860
and even tragic incidents facing our society.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800
Can you share how you first became interested
00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.240
in technology and how it evolved into this entrepreneurial
00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:32.300
spirit you have? Sure. Well, I was also fortunate.
00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.460
I was the son of two scientists. Both my parents
00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:39.979
were college professors. And what that meant
00:03:39.979 --> 00:03:42.219
was, as a kid, I had absolutely nothing to do
00:03:42.219 --> 00:03:45.300
with science. You know, that was their thing.
00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:50.659
And so I avoided science like a plague. In fact,
00:03:50.659 --> 00:03:55.599
I majored in drama and social psychology when
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.340
I was in college and, you know, mostly did plays,
00:03:59.460 --> 00:04:03.919
acting. But when I got out and I got into the
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.080
real so -called real world, I discovered there
00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.479
must have been something genetically in me because
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.159
I found myself naturally gravitating towards
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:20.019
systems. And and again, part of that, what I
00:04:20.019 --> 00:04:22.079
was just sharing about not being intimidated
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:27.019
to look at something new and go, hmm, well, maybe
00:04:27.019 --> 00:04:30.339
I could do that. And then starting to try it
00:04:30.339 --> 00:04:35.189
out and then. having a sense that, gee, you know,
00:04:35.189 --> 00:04:39.149
it looks to me like it's kind of obvious the
00:04:39.149 --> 00:04:44.589
way it kind of should work. And it doesn't seem
00:04:44.589 --> 00:04:48.490
that hard, really. But again, I've been very
00:04:48.490 --> 00:04:54.329
fortunate in my career to have been exposed to
00:04:54.329 --> 00:04:59.560
fields that were unfolding. And I like that kind
00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.759
of thing. I like going out and looking over the
00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:06.860
edge and the edge of the horizon. And then I
00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:09.220
guess maybe because I didn't know any better,
00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.319
seeing if I could make some kind of a contribution.
00:05:13.069 --> 00:05:16.490
I can completely relate. My father retired from
00:05:16.490 --> 00:05:18.589
the Department of Defense as a scientist, and
00:05:18.589 --> 00:05:21.149
I wanted nothing to do with science. But then
00:05:21.149 --> 00:05:24.089
I'm also now in a job where processes and the
00:05:24.089 --> 00:05:28.009
intricate details of things, you almost gravitate
00:05:28.009 --> 00:05:30.310
towards it because your DNA tells you you have
00:05:30.310 --> 00:05:33.730
to, right? Yeah. So when you were talking about
00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:35.930
how you started working for the state of Connecticut,
00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:38.569
you're overseeing, for instance, the building
00:05:38.569 --> 00:05:42.350
of this new medical school. That seems to be
00:05:42.350 --> 00:05:45.069
the time when you kind of got your first, really
00:05:45.069 --> 00:05:49.410
your second hand on health care. Right. Let's
00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:52.810
talk about health care tech. What resonated with
00:05:52.810 --> 00:05:56.329
you when it came to health care tech? And what
00:05:56.329 --> 00:05:59.769
is behind focusing on that particular area when
00:05:59.769 --> 00:06:02.970
it comes to tech? Great question, because I've
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:05.029
been involved in health care tech. Now, I would
00:06:05.029 --> 00:06:10.959
say without any qualification for 40 years. And
00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.939
I've always been drawn to the IT side of it.
00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:20.699
I've always been fascinated by this paradox in
00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:25.240
healthcare, where healthcare is about taking
00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.959
a human being in all of our many splendid ways
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.139
we exist that has something wrong with that human
00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:34.980
being and identifying what's wrong with that
00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:40.310
human being and then trying to either diagnosed
00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:43.350
properly and get the right care, or if there's
00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:46.850
a diagnosis, but there's no care, then trying
00:06:46.850 --> 00:06:50.329
to figure out how you can actually invent stuff
00:06:50.329 --> 00:06:55.329
can address those issues. And to me, there's
00:06:55.329 --> 00:06:58.889
this interesting duality between the human side
00:06:58.889 --> 00:07:04.589
of it, the most complex of all, of all, of anything
00:07:04.589 --> 00:07:08.009
is the human brain. So there's that, how does
00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:11.920
all those synaptic connections operating in terms
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:17.720
of experience and feeling and the psychosomatic
00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.279
dimensions of illness and all that. How does
00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.459
that work? And then there's the physical manifestation
00:07:23.459 --> 00:07:29.399
of what's wrong. And because we are so enormously
00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:34.120
complicated, how do you sort through all the
00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.579
information to identify what's important? And
00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.000
then how do you once you've identified that,
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.740
how do you then develop an approach to dealing
00:07:43.740 --> 00:07:46.620
with that? And then how do you track that to
00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:49.000
ensure that you're getting to where you need
00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.420
to go? And then how do you ultimately measure
00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:57.560
the overall effectiveness that not just biologically,
00:07:57.699 --> 00:08:01.600
but in terms of the human experience that that
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.279
has created and other very nitty gritty things
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:08.740
like economics? Does it make sense? Is it financially
00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:12.259
sustainable? Is it viable? And then organizationally,
00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:15.079
is it something that you can actually provide?
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:17.879
I guess to summarize it all, it's because at
00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.399
the end of the day, while I do love technology
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.139
and I've been very blessed to play kind of on
00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:27.100
the edges of technology for a long time, I'm
00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:31.379
a humanist. So it's the human experience of that
00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:35.960
that I find most sort of dramatically compelling.
00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:39.159
Is it the humanists in you that kind of sparked
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.860
this transition from tech entrepreneur to the
00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:45.419
addiction treatment industry? You were previously
00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:48.639
the CEO of High Watch Recovery Center. How did
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:51.559
those type of opportunities come to be? Well,
00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.240
I like to call myself actually the accidental
00:08:54.240 --> 00:09:00.299
CEO in terms of this is my second posting as
00:09:00.299 --> 00:09:04.019
a CEO of a treatment center. And the first one.
00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:08.980
I genuinely felt was accidental because I had
00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:12.480
actually started a company that was focused on
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:16.419
healthcare IT systems, health information, electronic
00:09:16.419 --> 00:09:21.100
medical records. And in the aughts, the 2000s
00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:25.720
and the 2000 early teens, the large electronic
00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.620
medical records like Epic and Cerner had not
00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:31.279
really come to predominate the way they do now.
00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:33.919
And so there were literally hundreds of different
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.659
systems, and none of them could interoperate
00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:38.740
with each other. And that became a very interesting
00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:42.720
problem to me, which I had had some rather interesting
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.200
practical experience dealing with in the 90s.
00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:48.940
You mentioned your father was involved with the
00:09:48.940 --> 00:09:50.779
Defense Department. I was very heavily involved
00:09:50.779 --> 00:09:54.460
in the 90s with the Defense Advanced Research
00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:57.879
Projects Agency, DARPA, working on a bunch of
00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.590
different... classified and unclassified projects
00:10:01.590 --> 00:10:07.649
that involved trying to use advanced search technologies
00:10:07.649 --> 00:10:11.549
to get on top of really, really complicated data
00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:15.269
messes and sort them out without having to try
00:10:15.269 --> 00:10:18.289
and force everything into a great, big, clumsy
00:10:18.289 --> 00:10:22.230
database. And so having had that background,
00:10:22.350 --> 00:10:27.320
when I got involved in healthcare, or those kind
00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.539
of health care problems, that really then intrigued
00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:34.539
me. It was like, well, I mean, really? You know,
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:41.679
you have a modern hospital, a circa 2005, for
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.299
example, would have had 200 different IT systems
00:10:46.299 --> 00:10:51.250
and Every individual part of the human body was
00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:53.769
under a different specialty, and every specialty
00:10:53.769 --> 00:10:57.950
had designed its own classification system, and
00:10:57.950 --> 00:11:02.289
every specialty had spawned its own little ecosystem
00:11:02.289 --> 00:11:08.370
of IT programs that supported that little specialty,
00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:11.070
but had nothing to do with the specialty right
00:11:11.070 --> 00:11:14.870
next to it. That's highly inefficient. I don't
00:11:14.870 --> 00:11:17.990
believe it inefficient. With lethal consequences.
00:11:18.490 --> 00:11:21.710
Yeah. I mean, one of the manifestations of that
00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:25.210
that was directly relevant to right before I
00:11:25.210 --> 00:11:27.809
had my accidental opportunity to become CEO of
00:11:27.809 --> 00:11:32.690
iWatch was I started a company with Yale, Yale
00:11:32.690 --> 00:11:37.090
University, to basically use Google -like search
00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:40.210
to get on top of these electronic medical records.
00:11:40.830 --> 00:11:44.269
And which we did successfully. And one of the
00:11:44.269 --> 00:11:48.909
sites that we had to apply the technology to
00:11:48.909 --> 00:11:53.490
test it was the VA hospital in right outside
00:11:53.490 --> 00:11:56.049
of New Haven and West Haven. It's one of the
00:11:56.049 --> 00:11:58.490
biggest VAs in the country. It's also because
00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:01.190
of its proximity to Yale, its affiliation with
00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:04.129
Yale. It's one of the premier research institutions
00:12:04.129 --> 00:12:07.169
in the whole VA health care system, which is
00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:12.990
huge. What we started to do was to use Google
00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:18.769
-like search to search x -rays, search radiology
00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:22.250
reports for people who had been, where the tests
00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:25.190
had been ordered by cardiologists to look for,
00:12:25.190 --> 00:12:28.450
you know, cardiac issues, you know, valve disease,
00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:33.009
whatever. And then have the search engine not
00:12:33.009 --> 00:12:35.940
just... Search for certain keywords as it related
00:12:35.940 --> 00:12:38.799
to a cardiology issue, but then look for anything
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.539
else with the rest of the notes that were all
00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.940
arrayed below the main notes to see if there
00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:48.480
was something of interest. And what we discovered
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:53.620
is that all these vets were coming in. They were
00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:56.840
being given a chest x -ray. The chest x -ray
00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.679
was. vocal bite, ordered by a cardiologist. The
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.720
front section was all in the cardiology report.
00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:04.899
It was, you know, blah, blah, blah, blocked artery,
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.299
number two. And then the next section down, which
00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:13.460
was secondary notes, which was never read by
00:13:13.460 --> 00:13:16.940
anybody, would literally have in the note observed
00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:21.159
a two centimeter mass in the lung or observed
00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:27.120
a 15 millimeter lesion. in the pancreas, which
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.039
were all extraordinarily important, stage one,
00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:35.639
stage two signs of cancer that nobody ever had.
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:38.159
And so you literally would have people presenting
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.740
with heart problem and then coming back four
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:44.059
or five years later at stage four lung cancer.
00:13:44.299 --> 00:13:50.539
So that's a no kidding. You talk about how things
00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:52.740
really have to hit you in the heart instead of
00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:56.200
just in your head. Is that the driving force
00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.860
for you taking on the executive director position
00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.799
you currently have with Claire Matrix? What about
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.419
the mission of Claire Matrix resonated with you
00:14:05.419 --> 00:14:08.919
in that same way as the previous organization?
00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.299
Can you talk to me about Claire Matrix impact
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:15.200
and how that kind of fuels that passion you have
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:20.090
in your heart? Yes, absolutely. So I grew up
00:14:20.090 --> 00:14:27.750
in the East. But in 1991, I moved out to Santa
00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:30.970
Monica and I lived in Santa Monica for 15 years.
00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:36.009
And when I was here, I had a lot of friends in
00:14:36.009 --> 00:14:40.309
the recovery community. And I kept hearing about
00:14:40.309 --> 00:14:42.049
this wonderful organization called the Clare
00:14:42.049 --> 00:14:45.610
Foundation. It was the last house on the block.
00:14:47.140 --> 00:14:51.120
for the people that had lost everything. And
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.320
there was something that appealed to me about
00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.580
that on several levels. One was just a sort of
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:06.340
a deep sort of empathy, but also because, to
00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:10.139
be candid, it was revered within the community.
00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:12.840
And a lot of people I got to know here and I
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.919
respected were involved with Claire. including
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:18.679
a guy who became a great, great friend of mine,
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:23.059
who ultimately became their chairman. And so
00:15:23.059 --> 00:15:30.559
it was ironic because at the time that I, by
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.500
then, my wife and son and I moved in 2006 from
00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:43.370
here on a way back east. The individual I'm talking
00:15:43.370 --> 00:15:46.789
about in 2010 became the chairman of Clare. And
00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:50.549
when I stepped into my accidental CEO role at
00:15:50.549 --> 00:15:55.450
Hiawatch, he and the board were wrestling with
00:15:55.450 --> 00:15:59.110
a decision as to whether or not to merge Clare
00:15:59.110 --> 00:16:03.769
with another organization called Matrix. And
00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:08.610
he consulted me because he knew, you know, I
00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:12.320
knew some stuff about this. And so we had a lot
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:15.259
of conversations back and forth. And unfortunately,
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.379
he was quite ill at that point. And he died right
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:22.659
before the merger happened. And I kind of lost
00:16:22.659 --> 00:16:24.879
touch with the whole thing. But I knew a number
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.620
of the people who were on the board by that time.
00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:32.080
And in 2021, I had by that time moved to Vermont,
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:37.000
where I still have a house. And I got a call
00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.539
at the end of April from one of the board members.
00:16:40.649 --> 00:16:43.570
who said, hey, what are you doing next week?
00:16:43.889 --> 00:16:48.370
And I said, well, you know, the snow just left.
00:16:49.049 --> 00:16:51.169
You know, the flowers are starting to poke up.
00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:54.750
Why? Why are you asking? And they said, well,
00:16:54.789 --> 00:16:56.169
could you come out and take a look at Claire?
00:16:56.929 --> 00:16:59.570
Because it's got some problems, got some issues.
00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:02.830
And we know that you've had some experience in
00:17:02.830 --> 00:17:05.069
that area. Maybe, you know, just a fresh pair
00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:09.380
of eyes could help. So I said, sure. And I flew
00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:12.079
out in the beginning of May. I spent a week.
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.819
I looked at where the organization was. I saw
00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:20.460
what it was confronting. It just barely, it was
00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:24.039
still COVID time. COVID had just rocked residential
00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:27.240
treatment facilities. Many of them, you know,
00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:31.519
were just demolished during that. But I did see
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.460
that it looked like, you know, there were certain
00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:37.480
things that needed to be done. clearly. So at
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.039
that point, they asked me to continue, and I
00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:43.880
continued for the next few years, off and on
00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.740
as a consultant, trying to help them as they
00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:52.099
went through three different CEOs. And then this
00:17:52.099 --> 00:17:55.160
time last year, actually, they asked me to come
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.339
out because it just still wasn't working, still
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:05.059
wasn't coalescing, to really come up with a plan.
00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.200
you know, the plan was either fix it or figure
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:14.559
out how to merge it because it just wasn't coalescing
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.160
the way it needed to. So if you look around us,
00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:21.319
and I know your focus is homelessness, 70, 80
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.720
% of homeless people have either mental illness
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:28.079
or substance use disorder or both. If you don't
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.839
solve those problems, they'll never get out of
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.970
that cycle. And so You know, looking all around
00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:38.809
us and seeing how pervasive this problem is,
00:18:38.930 --> 00:18:43.230
to be in a position, as this organization is,
00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:49.089
to say, we've been here for 54 years. We are
00:18:49.089 --> 00:18:52.569
the resource for the West Side. We are the only
00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:57.529
treatment center left on this side of the 405
00:18:57.529 --> 00:19:01.970
freeway that can provide all levels of service
00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:05.799
for the mentally ill across the population here.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.339
And to be able to approach the community with
00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:16.579
a very simple message. And that is, that's what
00:19:16.579 --> 00:19:20.779
we do. We also try to be really clear about what
00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:24.380
we don't do. And so we do mental health and we
00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.599
do substance use disorder. And we try to be really,
00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:28.759
really good at that. But we understand that the
00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.140
people that we're trying to help are in a way
00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:34.279
the most broken of the broken. And they've got
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.000
all kinds of problems. They've got other health
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.440
issues. They've got housing insecurity. They
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.019
don't have any. They've got no transportation.
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.500
They've got lots of legal problems. They've got
00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.420
children, and they've got lots of children problems.
00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:54.799
They've got, in other words, they've got this
00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:01.670
wide array of problems. in any way implying that
00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:04.670
we can do more than what we can do. But what
00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:07.910
we do want to do is we want to extend a hand
00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:11.210
to the community to say, how can we help you?
00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:17.630
And what I've discovered in that is that, as
00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:23.069
one of my good friends puts it, when the standpoint
00:20:23.069 --> 00:20:29.220
that you have with the world around you is, Coming
00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:32.099
from a place of saying, how can I be of service
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:36.140
to you? You fit in anywhere. Let me shift gears
00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:38.259
a bit. And I say shift gears, but I think it's
00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:41.079
all really very much connected. When did you
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.400
first hear about Santa Monica College's homeless
00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:48.059
services program? Share with me what your first
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:51.720
initial response was. Were you surprised to hear
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.579
that a program like that existed, especially
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:59.220
at a community college? The first I heard of
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:05.400
it was when I did assume my position here. One
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:07.579
of, you know, I had to evaluate our challenges.
00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:12.259
One of the really significant challenges we've
00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:18.140
got is to find competent staff in all areas.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:23.460
So in all of the clinical areas, whether they're
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:30.430
prescribers. med administrators, case managers,
00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:38.109
therapists, at every level, addiction counselors,
00:21:38.309 --> 00:21:43.930
at every single level. This is a very tough field
00:21:43.930 --> 00:21:49.950
right now because it's dramatically underserved
00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:55.690
in terms of the available credible people. who
00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:59.930
are available to work for it. And so one of the
00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:02.769
immediate thoughts that I had was, because I'd
00:22:02.769 --> 00:22:06.309
lived in Santa Monica for 15 years, I thought,
00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:09.930
well, gee, I mean, Santa Monica College has got
00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:14.089
some great programs, great entry programs for
00:22:14.089 --> 00:22:18.410
people. I wonder if they've got a program and
00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:23.579
wouldn't it make sense for us as a provider institution
00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.119
that needs people who are qualified coming through
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:32.299
that program to make their acquaintance. And
00:22:32.299 --> 00:22:38.740
from their standpoint, it's fairly logical to
00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:42.599
presume you want places where your students can
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.779
go and get experience, real -world experience,
00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:49.740
and we're right here. And once they... do all
00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.819
the hard, heavy lifting of getting a degree,
00:22:52.099 --> 00:22:55.700
know they can get a job someplace. And if they
00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:59.200
want to continue to live in Santa Monica, here
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:05.799
we are. Excuse me. So I did sort of initiate
00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:13.160
looking for those connections while we were busy
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.420
doing a whole variety of things. And then I just
00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:19.059
had the very, very good fortune. I was sitting
00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:22.640
with two of your colleagues at this big RAND
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.579
event that we were invited to attend and I was
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:31.599
invited to speak at. And right out of the gate,
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.960
it was, well, yeah, you know, there'd be certainly
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.099
some grounds to at least have a conversation.
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.299
You know, you spoke about this need, this labor
00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:47.259
force need. For having folks who are well -trained
00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:50.900
and ready to go to be able to support all of
00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:55.000
these services that this very, very vulnerable
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.299
population needs. How important is it to have
00:23:59.299 --> 00:24:03.700
these types of programs like the one at SMC to
00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:07.680
expand, not just to community colleges all throughout
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.900
the state of California, but even across the
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.339
country? Obviously, this is not an issue that
00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:15.309
is unique. to the state of california not at
00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:20.210
all um i i think it's an absolutely urgent not
00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:23.269
just industry in the sense that we're in an industry
00:24:23.269 --> 00:24:29.289
priority it's an urgent societal priority in
00:24:29.289 --> 00:24:35.130
other words mental health and substance use disorders
00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:42.410
are the physical manifestation of the fact that
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:49.900
There's very significant ongoing pandemics in
00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:56.619
this country that fall under the heading of anxiety,
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:05.420
loneliness, and that are quite pervasive, and
00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:10.420
depression. And those are not getting better.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:19.420
they're getting worse. And so that as a society,
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:28.859
we have been slow to recognize the pervasiveness
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:34.680
of those things and to realize that we don't
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:39.660
really have the resources. that are needed to
00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:43.220
effectively address those things. And where the
00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:46.500
rubber really hits the road are for the people
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:49.299
who, for whatever the complex set of reasons,
00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:53.079
and for every individual it's different, get
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:57.380
basically spun off the wheel. You know, they...
00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:01.369
so many people in this country. I mean, like,
00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:04.390
it's astonishing, it's a statistic. Like, 65
00:26:04.390 --> 00:26:08.750
% of the U .S. literally has less than one month's
00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:14.089
net worth. So that if anything happens to them,
00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.269
they lose their house, they lose their car, they
00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:19.990
lose their job, they lose, I mean, it just, and
00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:24.349
so that there's this enormous pervasive societal
00:26:24.349 --> 00:26:29.900
uncertainty. that is creating this pandemic of
00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:35.700
loneliness, anxiety, and all those other sort
00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:39.359
of adverse dysfunctional behaviors that are associated
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:47.500
with those things. And an inadequate safety net
00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:52.940
to address those things. So that in terms of
00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:56.799
the need, it's there. And in terms of the opportunity,
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:02.039
it's emphatically there. And so that in looking
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:08.700
at the, again, California specifically, Santa
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:12.019
Monica specifically, Claire Matrix specifically,
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:18.380
is we have 20 open positions right now that we're
00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:21.980
desperately trying to fill. We can't find qualified
00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:25.869
people for them. The state of California's $6
00:27:25.869 --> 00:27:31.670
.8 billion Prop 1 bond, which is a lot of money,
00:27:31.809 --> 00:27:36.910
was to create 6 ,800 new residential treatment
00:27:36.910 --> 00:27:41.710
beds. Currently, we're operating around 75 to
00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:45.970
80 here. We want to double that. We want to literally
00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:49.509
go to, if we can, double that capacity because
00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:53.289
we're turning people away all the time. But one
00:27:53.289 --> 00:27:55.190
of the reasons why right now we couldn't do that,
00:27:55.289 --> 00:27:58.309
even if we wanted to, is because we can't staff
00:27:58.309 --> 00:28:07.789
to that. So that to have a institution like Santa
00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:14.329
Monica College, which I think is a tremendous
00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:21.779
advantage, has as a focus. what is not disparagingly
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.880
called vocational education, where, you know,
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.359
you can be very specific about going to college
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.660
for a specific area of interest to learn specifically
00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:36.839
how to do that and even get credentialed while
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.180
you're doing that so that, you know, you're not
00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:42.960
getting some esoteric, you know, academic degree
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.920
like I did the first time, you know. So my careers
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.200
in drama and social psychology, I made it up.
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.680
Because at that time, I had no idea what I wanted
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.160
to be when I grew up. So rather than make that
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.680
mistake, you can focus on an area that you do
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.500
feel touches your heart. Get experience in that.
00:29:04.059 --> 00:29:06.759
And then the only other thing I would offer to
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:11.119
your students is, this problem is not going away.
00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:15.650
So if you want a career, which is a very tricky
00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:19.390
thing, I've been in high tech for 40 years. I've
00:29:19.390 --> 00:29:21.910
seen all kinds of really, really cool technology
00:29:21.910 --> 00:29:25.670
that was hot, hot, hot, and doesn't even exist
00:29:25.670 --> 00:29:29.309
anymore, right? That where, you know, things
00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:33.829
are changing so fast that whatever your area
00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:36.970
of expertise is, through no fault of your own,
00:29:37.269 --> 00:29:44.240
especially right now with AI. where AI is more
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.740
than capable now of doing 90 to 95 % of basic
00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:50.579
programming in C++. You don't need a C++ program
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:55.980
anymore, or Python, or any other, what even five
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.400
years ago were sort of considered more elite
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.559
programming languages where you could build a
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:04.099
whole career, you're gone. And that's part of
00:30:04.099 --> 00:30:09.019
what's creating this mass anxiety. But in terms
00:30:09.019 --> 00:30:16.240
of people, struggling with anxiety, depression,
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:22.880
various forms of real other documentable mental
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.460
illness. And then added to that, addictive behaviors,
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:37.559
whether it is alcohol, drugs, the internet, whatever.
00:30:41.649 --> 00:30:46.089
The opportunity that I think is not going to
00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:49.609
go away, at least for as far as I can see in
00:30:49.609 --> 00:30:52.789
the future, is for people who understand how
00:30:52.789 --> 00:30:57.589
to help people who have those issues. And if
00:30:57.589 --> 00:31:00.750
you can do that, you get two things. Job security.
00:31:02.069 --> 00:31:07.089
And while they're not that well paid now, which
00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:10.289
is one of the problems, I believe it's going
00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.500
to change. because of the criticality of the
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:18.920
need. So that you have job security, and then
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:25.039
you also have, for me anyway, a level of satisfaction
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:29.920
around feeling like what I did today mattered.
00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:34.440
That's really, in my experience, second to none
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.420
in terms of what I've been able to do. Last question
00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:40.789
for you. I want to talk a bit about what a dream
00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:43.690
state would look like for you so given that you
00:31:43.690 --> 00:31:47.309
had all green lights no barriers no yellows no
00:31:47.309 --> 00:31:51.289
reds what would it look like to be able to solve
00:31:51.289 --> 00:31:53.930
this issue what would be needed and do you think
00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:57.950
that's a dream state we can get to um yes i do
00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:04.150
um but i'm a dreamer um so and by the way if
00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:06.430
you're gonna if you're gonna pursue an entrepreneurial
00:32:06.430 --> 00:32:13.130
path um You either have to be blessed with or
00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:17.309
have a sort of a profound psychological disorder.
00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:24.369
Just incurable optimism. Because, you know, too
00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:27.829
much happens along the way that could tell you
00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:31.809
you're crazy. But if you, you know, anybody who
00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:33.950
ever did anything that was really, really difficult,
00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:37.430
especially things that didn't quite exist when
00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:40.759
they started out. It has to pursue those things
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.019
with the belief it's going to work. Right. So.
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.400
So, yeah, I love that question because I do have
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.259
a vision in terms of what it could be. And that
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:54.099
is I come from a place in terms of human experience
00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:57.740
now. And it does help to have gray hair in this
00:32:57.740 --> 00:33:01.759
because I've lived a long time, sort of. And
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.779
but that's exposed a lot, a lot, a lot of people.
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:12.599
And what. It's shown me is that nobody gets out
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:18.240
of here unscathed. People live with this false
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.779
view, especially in our, you know, media driven
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.779
culture where we're all supposed to look like
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:26.839
the Kardashians, be really rich and drive the
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:29.160
right cars and, you know, never have any health
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.839
problems and, you know, on and on and on. And
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.259
the reality is nobody lives that way. And so
00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:41.819
the. So what does that mean? It means that everybody,
00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:48.099
everybody gets stuff in their lives. And everybody
00:33:48.099 --> 00:33:50.759
goes through periods where they struggle with
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:54.140
that stuff. And a very, very large percentage
00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.720
of us go off the rails at different points along
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.500
that way. My belief is all of the problems that
00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:05.980
we deal with on a daily basis at Clear Matrix.
00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:09.469
where we are dealing with, in a way, the most
00:34:09.469 --> 00:34:13.949
extreme amongst us, who've had those things happen,
00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:20.670
you know, with a lot of piling on, is that if
00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:26.610
we can show how to help individuals in that condition
00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:33.610
come out of the cold, engage with a system of
00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:38.619
recovery where, It isn't about treatment. In
00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:41.039
fact, we have a very simple motto now at Clear
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.340
Matrix, which is we want to put recovery back
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:47.860
into treatment. In other words, we're not interested
00:34:47.860 --> 00:34:49.599
in taking somebody and giving them seven days
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.000
of detox and patting them on the back and saying,
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:53.480
go back out on the street and see how it goes
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.559
the next time. We're not interested in doing
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.260
that and then giving them 90 days of residential
00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:03.159
and saying, here, good luck. Here's a bus pass.
00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:08.030
What we're really interested in is focusing on
00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.469
that, what's called the acute stage, to get them
00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:19.070
first safe, then stabilized, then beginning to
00:35:19.070 --> 00:35:23.530
get a kind of sense that, oh, there's maybe something
00:35:23.530 --> 00:35:26.690
I can do here, and then provide them with the
00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:31.630
tools to plug in ultimately to the most important
00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:36.750
part of the journey. which is, at the end of
00:35:36.750 --> 00:35:42.949
the day, not necessarily to just not use drugs
00:35:42.949 --> 00:35:50.170
or not abuse alcohol or not act out in mentally
00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:58.690
inappropriate ways. It is to give them a start.
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.980
at grabbing onto a set of principles by which
00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:07.059
they can build a life on. And that when they
00:36:07.059 --> 00:36:11.500
do that, one of the other, I can't exaggerate,
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:16.800
incredible rewards that I get, and I'm talking
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:23.360
about me, for being here, is at least once a
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:27.269
week. somebody comes into my office or somebody
00:36:27.269 --> 00:36:30.110
I'm aware of here as part of what we're trying
00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:36.630
to do is brought to my attention where you look
00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:40.429
at them and you go, you can't get from where
00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:45.030
they were to where they are now. You can't. It's
00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:49.690
not possible that somebody could be so broken
00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:53.400
and yet... Now standing in front of you is this
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.739
individual who is more and more and more daily
00:36:57.739 --> 00:37:00.900
filled with life and vitality and interests and
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:07.119
desires and integrity and a desire to help others
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.039
the way they've been helped themselves. That
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:14.780
to me is not just, it certainly happens one person
00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:21.869
at a time, but it is not singular. generalizable.
00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:27.590
And that as a society, what we need are ways
00:37:27.590 --> 00:37:31.489
for many, many, many, many more people who don't
00:37:31.489 --> 00:37:34.809
have to wind up living on the streets to feel
00:37:34.809 --> 00:37:39.769
that they've reached a bottom, to find a connection
00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:43.510
with that kind of future. And if we do that,
00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:50.849
then as a society, our anxiety, our anger, our
00:37:50.849 --> 00:37:57.610
depression, our, you know, extremes will all
00:37:57.610 --> 00:38:02.730
dissipate. And so, because I'm an eternal optimist,
00:38:02.929 --> 00:38:08.329
it will be a better place, not just for me, but
00:38:08.329 --> 00:38:10.690
I just had the week with my son who lives in
00:38:10.690 --> 00:38:13.550
New York, came out to visit me, and I adore my
00:38:13.550 --> 00:38:16.610
son, he's 29, and he just flew back this morning.
00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:22.269
And, you know, When, again, being a parent, when
00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.590
you look at a child, there is this feeling of,
00:38:27.869 --> 00:38:32.449
you know, I want this to be better for you. I
00:38:32.449 --> 00:38:35.989
want this to be better for you. And looking at
00:38:35.989 --> 00:38:38.050
the world we're in, it's sometimes hard to say
00:38:38.050 --> 00:38:41.769
that with all the things that are going on. But
00:38:41.769 --> 00:38:45.869
what I do believe is that it can be better for
00:38:45.869 --> 00:38:53.710
him. And at the end of the day, while I certainly
00:38:53.710 --> 00:38:56.869
don't have much to say about how it all unfolds
00:38:56.869 --> 00:39:00.389
in the big picture, as each individual, you get
00:39:00.389 --> 00:39:02.190
a chance to try and make it a little better.
00:39:02.670 --> 00:39:07.769
And that's your reward. I feel like you create
00:39:07.769 --> 00:39:11.190
the world of folks who keep saying, how can I
00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:14.510
help? And that gets us that much closer to your
00:39:14.510 --> 00:39:18.980
dream state. Right. That's right. Matt Walton,
00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:21.119
thank you so much for sharing your insights and
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.280
expertise with us. And thank you for joining
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.280
us on Doing What Works Innovations and Homeless
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.820
Services. We hope today's conversation has shed
00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:29.639
some light on the complexities of homelessness
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.659
and inspired ideas for change. If you found value
00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:34.780
in this episode, please subscribe, share, and
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:36.900
leave us a review. Together, we can continue
00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:38.880
the dialogue and support the efforts to create
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.719
lasting solutions. Stay tuned for more insights
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:43.920
from the experts leading the way. Until next
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:44.159
time.
00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:12.300
Welcome to Doing What Works, Innovations and
00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.900
Homeless Services, the podcast that takes a closer
00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:17.079
look at one of our community's most urgent challenges.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.839
I'm your host, Ashanti Blaize-Hopkins, Interim
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:21.839
Associate Dean at Santa Monica College's Center
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:24.600
for Media and Design. Each episode will engage
00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.679
with experts, policymakers, and educators to
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.679
uncover the history, explore effective policies,
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.140
and highlight the efforts of those working to
00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:35.719
create change. Joining us on the podcast today
00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:37.859
is someone who has been an innovator in the tech
00:00:37.859 --> 00:00:40.399
industry for decades. He has launched and sold
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.780
numerous tech companies through the years that
00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:44.979
have provided interactive network and Internet
00:00:44.979 --> 00:00:48.600
solutions for health care, energy, defense, homeland
00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:51.619
security and public safety industries. He is
00:00:51.619 --> 00:00:54.619
also an expert on topics related to health technology,
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:58.140
cybersecurity and artificial intelligence. He
00:00:58.140 --> 00:00:59.820
has a bachelor's degree from Brown University
00:00:59.820 --> 00:01:03.119
and an MBA from Yale School of Management. Currently,
00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:05.340
he is the executive director of Clare Matrix,
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.939
an organization that provides compassionate and
00:01:07.939 --> 00:01:10.099
evidence -based treatment for those struggling
00:01:10.099 --> 00:01:12.900
with drugs, alcohol, and related behavioral issues.
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.140
Matt Walton, thank you so much for joining us
00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.239
on the podcast. It's my pleasure. Delighted to
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.500
be here. Our first question for every one of
00:01:20.500 --> 00:01:22.799
our Doing What Works podcast guests is always
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.099
the same. What was your first job ever, and how
00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:28.700
does what you learned in that position inform
00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:30.739
doing what works for you now in your current
00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:35.719
role? Well, my first job ever was actually working
00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:40.920
as a stock boy in a shirt factory in New Haven,
00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:44.659
Connecticut. And just to really date myself,
00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:48.620
I was being paid the minimum wage at that time,
00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:52.620
which, as I recall, was $1 .38 an hour. Oh, my
00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:56.239
goodness. So that sort of dates me a little bit
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.049
anyway. But I don't really, I mean, that was
00:02:00.049 --> 00:02:05.890
my first job. My first actual real job was when
00:02:05.890 --> 00:02:11.789
I was going to college and I had to pay for my
00:02:11.789 --> 00:02:16.650
education. And I was fortunate in that my father
00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:20.370
was a geologist and consulted on very large scale
00:02:20.370 --> 00:02:24.210
construction projects. And I was able to get
00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:30.810
a job as a miner. on a tunnel project at 11 ,000
00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:35.169
feet in the Rocky Mountains at what's called
00:02:35.169 --> 00:02:37.250
the Eisenhower Tunnel. It's actually the highest
00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:40.650
tunnel in the United States. And what that really
00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:44.110
taught me was when you work in that kind of environment,
00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.669
which is very physically demanding and potentially
00:02:47.669 --> 00:02:50.750
dangerous, you have to have your wits about you.
00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:53.610
You know, you have to be aware of your environment,
00:02:53.669 --> 00:02:56.889
your surroundings. And that to me is really been
00:02:56.889 --> 00:02:59.250
kind of the essence of most of what I've done
00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:02.389
for the rest of my career is I've been very fortunate
00:03:02.389 --> 00:03:04.699
to do a lot of different things. So let's talk
00:03:04.699 --> 00:03:06.960
about that part of it, you know, this idea of
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:10.180
you jumping from one thing to another. You focus
00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:11.759
on one thing, you kind of get it done, you move
00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.800
on to the next thing. You have quite a background,
00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.240
especially in the tech world, and have found
00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:18.740
ways to use technology to address various challenges
00:03:18.740 --> 00:03:20.860
and even tragic incidents facing our society.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800
Can you share how you first became interested
00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.240
in technology and how it evolved into this entrepreneurial
00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:32.300
spirit you have? Sure. Well, I was also fortunate.
00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.460
I was the son of two scientists. Both my parents
00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:39.979
were college professors. And what that meant
00:03:39.979 --> 00:03:42.219
was, as a kid, I had absolutely nothing to do
00:03:42.219 --> 00:03:45.300
with science. You know, that was their thing.
00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:50.659
And so I avoided science like a plague. In fact,
00:03:50.659 --> 00:03:55.599
I majored in drama and social psychology when
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.340
I was in college and, you know, mostly did plays,
00:03:59.460 --> 00:04:03.919
acting. But when I got out and I got into the
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:07.080
real so -called real world, I discovered there
00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.479
must have been something genetically in me because
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.159
I found myself naturally gravitating towards
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:20.019
systems. And and again, part of that, what I
00:04:20.019 --> 00:04:22.079
was just sharing about not being intimidated
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:27.019
to look at something new and go, hmm, well, maybe
00:04:27.019 --> 00:04:30.339
I could do that. And then starting to try it
00:04:30.339 --> 00:04:35.189
out and then. having a sense that, gee, you know,
00:04:35.189 --> 00:04:39.149
it looks to me like it's kind of obvious the
00:04:39.149 --> 00:04:44.589
way it kind of should work. And it doesn't seem
00:04:44.589 --> 00:04:48.490
that hard, really. But again, I've been very
00:04:48.490 --> 00:04:54.329
fortunate in my career to have been exposed to
00:04:54.329 --> 00:04:59.560
fields that were unfolding. And I like that kind
00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.759
of thing. I like going out and looking over the
00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:06.860
edge and the edge of the horizon. And then I
00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:09.220
guess maybe because I didn't know any better,
00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.319
seeing if I could make some kind of a contribution.
00:05:13.069 --> 00:05:16.490
I can completely relate. My father retired from
00:05:16.490 --> 00:05:18.589
the Department of Defense as a scientist, and
00:05:18.589 --> 00:05:21.149
I wanted nothing to do with science. But then
00:05:21.149 --> 00:05:24.089
I'm also now in a job where processes and the
00:05:24.089 --> 00:05:28.009
intricate details of things, you almost gravitate
00:05:28.009 --> 00:05:30.310
towards it because your DNA tells you you have
00:05:30.310 --> 00:05:33.730
to, right? Yeah. So when you were talking about
00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:35.930
how you started working for the state of Connecticut,
00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:38.569
you're overseeing, for instance, the building
00:05:38.569 --> 00:05:42.350
of this new medical school. That seems to be
00:05:42.350 --> 00:05:45.069
the time when you kind of got your first, really
00:05:45.069 --> 00:05:49.410
your second hand on health care. Right. Let's
00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:52.810
talk about health care tech. What resonated with
00:05:52.810 --> 00:05:56.329
you when it came to health care tech? And what
00:05:56.329 --> 00:05:59.769
is behind focusing on that particular area when
00:05:59.769 --> 00:06:02.970
it comes to tech? Great question, because I've
00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:05.029
been involved in health care tech. Now, I would
00:06:05.029 --> 00:06:10.959
say without any qualification for 40 years. And
00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.939
I've always been drawn to the IT side of it.
00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:20.699
I've always been fascinated by this paradox in
00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:25.240
healthcare, where healthcare is about taking
00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.959
a human being in all of our many splendid ways
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.139
we exist that has something wrong with that human
00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:34.980
being and identifying what's wrong with that
00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:40.310
human being and then trying to either diagnosed
00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:43.350
properly and get the right care, or if there's
00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:46.850
a diagnosis, but there's no care, then trying
00:06:46.850 --> 00:06:50.329
to figure out how you can actually invent stuff
00:06:50.329 --> 00:06:55.329
can address those issues. And to me, there's
00:06:55.329 --> 00:06:58.889
this interesting duality between the human side
00:06:58.889 --> 00:07:04.589
of it, the most complex of all, of all, of anything
00:07:04.589 --> 00:07:08.009
is the human brain. So there's that, how does
00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:11.920
all those synaptic connections operating in terms
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:17.720
of experience and feeling and the psychosomatic
00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.279
dimensions of illness and all that. How does
00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.459
that work? And then there's the physical manifestation
00:07:23.459 --> 00:07:29.399
of what's wrong. And because we are so enormously
00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:34.120
complicated, how do you sort through all the
00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.579
information to identify what's important? And
00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.000
then how do you once you've identified that,
00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.740
how do you then develop an approach to dealing
00:07:43.740 --> 00:07:46.620
with that? And then how do you track that to
00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:49.000
ensure that you're getting to where you need
00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.420
to go? And then how do you ultimately measure
00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:57.560
the overall effectiveness that not just biologically,
00:07:57.699 --> 00:08:01.600
but in terms of the human experience that that
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.279
has created and other very nitty gritty things
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:08.740
like economics? Does it make sense? Is it financially
00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:12.259
sustainable? Is it viable? And then organizationally,
00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:15.079
is it something that you can actually provide?
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:17.879
I guess to summarize it all, it's because at
00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.399
the end of the day, while I do love technology
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.139
and I've been very blessed to play kind of on
00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:27.100
the edges of technology for a long time, I'm
00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:31.379
a humanist. So it's the human experience of that
00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:35.960
that I find most sort of dramatically compelling.
00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:39.159
Is it the humanists in you that kind of sparked
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.860
this transition from tech entrepreneur to the
00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:45.419
addiction treatment industry? You were previously
00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:48.639
the CEO of High Watch Recovery Center. How did
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:51.559
those type of opportunities come to be? Well,
00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.240
I like to call myself actually the accidental
00:08:54.240 --> 00:09:00.299
CEO in terms of this is my second posting as
00:09:00.299 --> 00:09:04.019
a CEO of a treatment center. And the first one.
00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:08.980
I genuinely felt was accidental because I had
00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:12.480
actually started a company that was focused on
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:16.419
healthcare IT systems, health information, electronic
00:09:16.419 --> 00:09:21.100
medical records. And in the aughts, the 2000s
00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:25.720
and the 2000 early teens, the large electronic
00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.620
medical records like Epic and Cerner had not
00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:31.279
really come to predominate the way they do now.
00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:33.919
And so there were literally hundreds of different
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.659
systems, and none of them could interoperate
00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:38.740
with each other. And that became a very interesting
00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:42.720
problem to me, which I had had some rather interesting
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.200
practical experience dealing with in the 90s.
00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:48.940
You mentioned your father was involved with the
00:09:48.940 --> 00:09:50.779
Defense Department. I was very heavily involved
00:09:50.779 --> 00:09:54.460
in the 90s with the Defense Advanced Research
00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:57.879
Projects Agency, DARPA, working on a bunch of
00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.590
different... classified and unclassified projects
00:10:01.590 --> 00:10:07.649
that involved trying to use advanced search technologies
00:10:07.649 --> 00:10:11.549
to get on top of really, really complicated data
00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:15.269
messes and sort them out without having to try
00:10:15.269 --> 00:10:18.289
and force everything into a great, big, clumsy
00:10:18.289 --> 00:10:22.230
database. And so having had that background,
00:10:22.350 --> 00:10:27.320
when I got involved in healthcare, or those kind
00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.539
of health care problems, that really then intrigued
00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:34.539
me. It was like, well, I mean, really? You know,
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:41.679
you have a modern hospital, a circa 2005, for
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.299
example, would have had 200 different IT systems
00:10:46.299 --> 00:10:51.250
and Every individual part of the human body was
00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:53.769
under a different specialty, and every specialty
00:10:53.769 --> 00:10:57.950
had designed its own classification system, and
00:10:57.950 --> 00:11:02.289
every specialty had spawned its own little ecosystem
00:11:02.289 --> 00:11:08.370
of IT programs that supported that little specialty,
00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:11.070
but had nothing to do with the specialty right
00:11:11.070 --> 00:11:14.870
next to it. That's highly inefficient. I don't
00:11:14.870 --> 00:11:17.990
believe it inefficient. With lethal consequences.
00:11:18.490 --> 00:11:21.710
Yeah. I mean, one of the manifestations of that
00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:25.210
that was directly relevant to right before I
00:11:25.210 --> 00:11:27.809
had my accidental opportunity to become CEO of
00:11:27.809 --> 00:11:32.690
iWatch was I started a company with Yale, Yale
00:11:32.690 --> 00:11:37.090
University, to basically use Google -like search
00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:40.210
to get on top of these electronic medical records.
00:11:40.830 --> 00:11:44.269
And which we did successfully. And one of the
00:11:44.269 --> 00:11:48.909
sites that we had to apply the technology to
00:11:48.909 --> 00:11:53.490
test it was the VA hospital in right outside
00:11:53.490 --> 00:11:56.049
of New Haven and West Haven. It's one of the
00:11:56.049 --> 00:11:58.490
biggest VAs in the country. It's also because
00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:01.190
of its proximity to Yale, its affiliation with
00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:04.129
Yale. It's one of the premier research institutions
00:12:04.129 --> 00:12:07.169
in the whole VA health care system, which is
00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:12.990
huge. What we started to do was to use Google
00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:18.769
-like search to search x -rays, search radiology
00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:22.250
reports for people who had been, where the tests
00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:25.190
had been ordered by cardiologists to look for,
00:12:25.190 --> 00:12:28.450
you know, cardiac issues, you know, valve disease,
00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:33.009
whatever. And then have the search engine not
00:12:33.009 --> 00:12:35.940
just... Search for certain keywords as it related
00:12:35.940 --> 00:12:38.799
to a cardiology issue, but then look for anything
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.539
else with the rest of the notes that were all
00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.940
arrayed below the main notes to see if there
00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:48.480
was something of interest. And what we discovered
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:53.620
is that all these vets were coming in. They were
00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:56.840
being given a chest x -ray. The chest x -ray
00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.679
was. vocal bite, ordered by a cardiologist. The
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.720
front section was all in the cardiology report.
00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:04.899
It was, you know, blah, blah, blah, blocked artery,
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.299
number two. And then the next section down, which
00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:13.460
was secondary notes, which was never read by
00:13:13.460 --> 00:13:16.940
anybody, would literally have in the note observed
00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:21.159
a two centimeter mass in the lung or observed
00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:27.120
a 15 millimeter lesion. in the pancreas, which
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.039
were all extraordinarily important, stage one,
00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:35.639
stage two signs of cancer that nobody ever had.
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:38.159
And so you literally would have people presenting
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.740
with heart problem and then coming back four
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:44.059
or five years later at stage four lung cancer.
00:13:44.299 --> 00:13:50.539
So that's a no kidding. You talk about how things
00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:52.740
really have to hit you in the heart instead of
00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:56.200
just in your head. Is that the driving force
00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.860
for you taking on the executive director position
00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.799
you currently have with Claire Matrix? What about
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.419
the mission of Claire Matrix resonated with you
00:14:05.419 --> 00:14:08.919
in that same way as the previous organization?
00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.299
Can you talk to me about Claire Matrix impact
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:15.200
and how that kind of fuels that passion you have
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:20.090
in your heart? Yes, absolutely. So I grew up
00:14:20.090 --> 00:14:27.750
in the East. But in 1991, I moved out to Santa
00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:30.970
Monica and I lived in Santa Monica for 15 years.
00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:36.009
And when I was here, I had a lot of friends in
00:14:36.009 --> 00:14:40.309
the recovery community. And I kept hearing about
00:14:40.309 --> 00:14:42.049
this wonderful organization called the Clare
00:14:42.049 --> 00:14:45.610
Foundation. It was the last house on the block.
00:14:47.140 --> 00:14:51.120
for the people that had lost everything. And
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.320
there was something that appealed to me about
00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.580
that on several levels. One was just a sort of
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:06.340
a deep sort of empathy, but also because, to
00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:10.139
be candid, it was revered within the community.
00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:12.840
And a lot of people I got to know here and I
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.919
respected were involved with Claire. including
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:18.679
a guy who became a great, great friend of mine,
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:23.059
who ultimately became their chairman. And so
00:15:23.059 --> 00:15:30.559
it was ironic because at the time that I, by
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.500
then, my wife and son and I moved in 2006 from
00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:43.370
here on a way back east. The individual I'm talking
00:15:43.370 --> 00:15:46.789
about in 2010 became the chairman of Clare. And
00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:50.549
when I stepped into my accidental CEO role at
00:15:50.549 --> 00:15:55.450
Hiawatch, he and the board were wrestling with
00:15:55.450 --> 00:15:59.110
a decision as to whether or not to merge Clare
00:15:59.110 --> 00:16:03.769
with another organization called Matrix. And
00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:08.610
he consulted me because he knew, you know, I
00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:12.320
knew some stuff about this. And so we had a lot
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:15.259
of conversations back and forth. And unfortunately,
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.379
he was quite ill at that point. And he died right
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:22.659
before the merger happened. And I kind of lost
00:16:22.659 --> 00:16:24.879
touch with the whole thing. But I knew a number
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.620
of the people who were on the board by that time.
00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:32.080
And in 2021, I had by that time moved to Vermont,
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:37.000
where I still have a house. And I got a call
00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.539
at the end of April from one of the board members.
00:16:40.649 --> 00:16:43.570
who said, hey, what are you doing next week?
00:16:43.889 --> 00:16:48.370
And I said, well, you know, the snow just left.
00:16:49.049 --> 00:16:51.169
You know, the flowers are starting to poke up.
00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:54.750
Why? Why are you asking? And they said, well,
00:16:54.789 --> 00:16:56.169
could you come out and take a look at Claire?
00:16:56.929 --> 00:16:59.570
Because it's got some problems, got some issues.
00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:02.830
And we know that you've had some experience in
00:17:02.830 --> 00:17:05.069
that area. Maybe, you know, just a fresh pair
00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:09.380
of eyes could help. So I said, sure. And I flew
00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:12.079
out in the beginning of May. I spent a week.
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.819
I looked at where the organization was. I saw
00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:20.460
what it was confronting. It just barely, it was
00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:24.039
still COVID time. COVID had just rocked residential
00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:27.240
treatment facilities. Many of them, you know,
00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:31.519
were just demolished during that. But I did see
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.460
that it looked like, you know, there were certain
00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:37.480
things that needed to be done. clearly. So at
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.039
that point, they asked me to continue, and I
00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:43.880
continued for the next few years, off and on
00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.740
as a consultant, trying to help them as they
00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:52.099
went through three different CEOs. And then this
00:17:52.099 --> 00:17:55.160
time last year, actually, they asked me to come
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.339
out because it just still wasn't working, still
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:05.059
wasn't coalescing, to really come up with a plan.
00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.200
you know, the plan was either fix it or figure
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:14.559
out how to merge it because it just wasn't coalescing
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.160
the way it needed to. So if you look around us,
00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:21.319
and I know your focus is homelessness, 70, 80
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.720
% of homeless people have either mental illness
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:28.079
or substance use disorder or both. If you don't
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.839
solve those problems, they'll never get out of
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.970
that cycle. And so You know, looking all around
00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:38.809
us and seeing how pervasive this problem is,
00:18:38.930 --> 00:18:43.230
to be in a position, as this organization is,
00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:49.089
to say, we've been here for 54 years. We are
00:18:49.089 --> 00:18:52.569
the resource for the West Side. We are the only
00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:57.529
treatment center left on this side of the 405
00:18:57.529 --> 00:19:01.970
freeway that can provide all levels of service
00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:05.799
for the mentally ill across the population here.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.339
And to be able to approach the community with
00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:16.579
a very simple message. And that is, that's what
00:19:16.579 --> 00:19:20.779
we do. We also try to be really clear about what
00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:24.380
we don't do. And so we do mental health and we
00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.599
do substance use disorder. And we try to be really,
00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:28.759
really good at that. But we understand that the
00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.140
people that we're trying to help are in a way
00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:34.279
the most broken of the broken. And they've got
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.000
all kinds of problems. They've got other health
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.440
issues. They've got housing insecurity. They
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.019
don't have any. They've got no transportation.
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.500
They've got lots of legal problems. They've got
00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.420
children, and they've got lots of children problems.
00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:54.799
They've got, in other words, they've got this
00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:01.670
wide array of problems. in any way implying that
00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:04.670
we can do more than what we can do. But what
00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:07.910
we do want to do is we want to extend a hand
00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:11.210
to the community to say, how can we help you?
00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:17.630
And what I've discovered in that is that, as
00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:23.069
one of my good friends puts it, when the standpoint
00:20:23.069 --> 00:20:29.220
that you have with the world around you is, Coming
00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:32.099
from a place of saying, how can I be of service
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:36.140
to you? You fit in anywhere. Let me shift gears
00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:38.259
a bit. And I say shift gears, but I think it's
00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:41.079
all really very much connected. When did you
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.400
first hear about Santa Monica College's homeless
00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:48.059
services program? Share with me what your first
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:51.720
initial response was. Were you surprised to hear
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.579
that a program like that existed, especially
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:59.220
at a community college? The first I heard of
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:05.400
it was when I did assume my position here. One
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:07.579
of, you know, I had to evaluate our challenges.
00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:12.259
One of the really significant challenges we've
00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:18.140
got is to find competent staff in all areas.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:23.460
So in all of the clinical areas, whether they're
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:30.430
prescribers. med administrators, case managers,
00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:38.109
therapists, at every level, addiction counselors,
00:21:38.309 --> 00:21:43.930
at every single level. This is a very tough field
00:21:43.930 --> 00:21:49.950
right now because it's dramatically underserved
00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:55.690
in terms of the available credible people. who
00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:59.930
are available to work for it. And so one of the
00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:02.769
immediate thoughts that I had was, because I'd
00:22:02.769 --> 00:22:06.309
lived in Santa Monica for 15 years, I thought,
00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:09.930
well, gee, I mean, Santa Monica College has got
00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:14.089
some great programs, great entry programs for
00:22:14.089 --> 00:22:18.410
people. I wonder if they've got a program and
00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:23.579
wouldn't it make sense for us as a provider institution
00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.119
that needs people who are qualified coming through
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:32.299
that program to make their acquaintance. And
00:22:32.299 --> 00:22:38.740
from their standpoint, it's fairly logical to
00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:42.599
presume you want places where your students can
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.779
go and get experience, real -world experience,
00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:49.740
and we're right here. And once they... do all
00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.819
the hard, heavy lifting of getting a degree,
00:22:52.099 --> 00:22:55.700
know they can get a job someplace. And if they
00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:59.200
want to continue to live in Santa Monica, here
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:05.799
we are. Excuse me. So I did sort of initiate
00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:13.160
looking for those connections while we were busy
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.420
doing a whole variety of things. And then I just
00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:19.059
had the very, very good fortune. I was sitting
00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:22.640
with two of your colleagues at this big RAND
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.579
event that we were invited to attend and I was
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:31.599
invited to speak at. And right out of the gate,
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.960
it was, well, yeah, you know, there'd be certainly
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.099
some grounds to at least have a conversation.
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.299
You know, you spoke about this need, this labor
00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:47.259
force need. For having folks who are well -trained
00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:50.900
and ready to go to be able to support all of
00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:55.000
these services that this very, very vulnerable
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.299
population needs. How important is it to have
00:23:59.299 --> 00:24:03.700
these types of programs like the one at SMC to
00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:07.680
expand, not just to community colleges all throughout
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.900
the state of California, but even across the
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.339
country? Obviously, this is not an issue that
00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:15.309
is unique. to the state of california not at
00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:20.210
all um i i think it's an absolutely urgent not
00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:23.269
just industry in the sense that we're in an industry
00:24:23.269 --> 00:24:29.289
priority it's an urgent societal priority in
00:24:29.289 --> 00:24:35.130
other words mental health and substance use disorders
00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:42.410
are the physical manifestation of the fact that
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:49.900
There's very significant ongoing pandemics in
00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:56.619
this country that fall under the heading of anxiety,
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:05.420
loneliness, and that are quite pervasive, and
00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:10.420
depression. And those are not getting better.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:19.420
they're getting worse. And so that as a society,
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:28.859
we have been slow to recognize the pervasiveness
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:34.680
of those things and to realize that we don't
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:39.660
really have the resources. that are needed to
00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:43.220
effectively address those things. And where the
00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:46.500
rubber really hits the road are for the people
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:49.299
who, for whatever the complex set of reasons,
00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:53.079
and for every individual it's different, get
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:57.380
basically spun off the wheel. You know, they...
00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:01.369
so many people in this country. I mean, like,
00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:04.390
it's astonishing, it's a statistic. Like, 65
00:26:04.390 --> 00:26:08.750
% of the U .S. literally has less than one month's
00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:14.089
net worth. So that if anything happens to them,
00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.269
they lose their house, they lose their car, they
00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:19.990
lose their job, they lose, I mean, it just, and
00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:24.349
so that there's this enormous pervasive societal
00:26:24.349 --> 00:26:29.900
uncertainty. that is creating this pandemic of
00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:35.700
loneliness, anxiety, and all those other sort
00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:39.359
of adverse dysfunctional behaviors that are associated
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:47.500
with those things. And an inadequate safety net
00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:52.940
to address those things. So that in terms of
00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:56.799
the need, it's there. And in terms of the opportunity,
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:02.039
it's emphatically there. And so that in looking
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:08.700
at the, again, California specifically, Santa
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:12.019
Monica specifically, Claire Matrix specifically,
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:18.380
is we have 20 open positions right now that we're
00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:21.980
desperately trying to fill. We can't find qualified
00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:25.869
people for them. The state of California's $6
00:27:25.869 --> 00:27:31.670
.8 billion Prop 1 bond, which is a lot of money,
00:27:31.809 --> 00:27:36.910
was to create 6 ,800 new residential treatment
00:27:36.910 --> 00:27:41.710
beds. Currently, we're operating around 75 to
00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:45.970
80 here. We want to double that. We want to literally
00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:49.509
go to, if we can, double that capacity because
00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:53.289
we're turning people away all the time. But one
00:27:53.289 --> 00:27:55.190
of the reasons why right now we couldn't do that,
00:27:55.289 --> 00:27:58.309
even if we wanted to, is because we can't staff
00:27:58.309 --> 00:28:07.789
to that. So that to have a institution like Santa
00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:14.329
Monica College, which I think is a tremendous
00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:21.779
advantage, has as a focus. what is not disparagingly
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.880
called vocational education, where, you know,
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.359
you can be very specific about going to college
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.660
for a specific area of interest to learn specifically
00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:36.839
how to do that and even get credentialed while
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.180
you're doing that so that, you know, you're not
00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:42.960
getting some esoteric, you know, academic degree
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.920
like I did the first time, you know. So my careers
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.200
in drama and social psychology, I made it up.
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.680
Because at that time, I had no idea what I wanted
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.160
to be when I grew up. So rather than make that
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.680
mistake, you can focus on an area that you do
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.500
feel touches your heart. Get experience in that.
00:29:04.059 --> 00:29:06.759
And then the only other thing I would offer to
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:11.119
your students is, this problem is not going away.
00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:15.650
So if you want a career, which is a very tricky
00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:19.390
thing, I've been in high tech for 40 years. I've
00:29:19.390 --> 00:29:21.910
seen all kinds of really, really cool technology
00:29:21.910 --> 00:29:25.670
that was hot, hot, hot, and doesn't even exist
00:29:25.670 --> 00:29:29.309
anymore, right? That where, you know, things
00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:33.829
are changing so fast that whatever your area
00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:36.970
of expertise is, through no fault of your own,
00:29:37.269 --> 00:29:44.240
especially right now with AI. where AI is more
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.740
than capable now of doing 90 to 95 % of basic
00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:50.579
programming in C++. You don't need a C++ program
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:55.980
anymore, or Python, or any other, what even five
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.400
years ago were sort of considered more elite
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.559
programming languages where you could build a
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:04.099
whole career, you're gone. And that's part of
00:30:04.099 --> 00:30:09.019
what's creating this mass anxiety. But in terms
00:30:09.019 --> 00:30:16.240
of people, struggling with anxiety, depression,
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:22.880
various forms of real other documentable mental
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.460
illness. And then added to that, addictive behaviors,
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:37.559
whether it is alcohol, drugs, the internet, whatever.
00:30:41.649 --> 00:30:46.089
The opportunity that I think is not going to
00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:49.609
go away, at least for as far as I can see in
00:30:49.609 --> 00:30:52.789
the future, is for people who understand how
00:30:52.789 --> 00:30:57.589
to help people who have those issues. And if
00:30:57.589 --> 00:31:00.750
you can do that, you get two things. Job security.
00:31:02.069 --> 00:31:07.089
And while they're not that well paid now, which
00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:10.289
is one of the problems, I believe it's going
00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.500
to change. because of the criticality of the
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:18.920
need. So that you have job security, and then
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:25.039
you also have, for me anyway, a level of satisfaction
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:29.920
around feeling like what I did today mattered.
00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:34.440
That's really, in my experience, second to none
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.420
in terms of what I've been able to do. Last question
00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:40.789
for you. I want to talk a bit about what a dream
00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:43.690
state would look like for you so given that you
00:31:43.690 --> 00:31:47.309
had all green lights no barriers no yellows no
00:31:47.309 --> 00:31:51.289
reds what would it look like to be able to solve
00:31:51.289 --> 00:31:53.930
this issue what would be needed and do you think
00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:57.950
that's a dream state we can get to um yes i do
00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:04.150
um but i'm a dreamer um so and by the way if
00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:06.430
you're gonna if you're gonna pursue an entrepreneurial
00:32:06.430 --> 00:32:13.130
path um You either have to be blessed with or
00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:17.309
have a sort of a profound psychological disorder.
00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:24.369
Just incurable optimism. Because, you know, too
00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:27.829
much happens along the way that could tell you
00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:31.809
you're crazy. But if you, you know, anybody who
00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:33.950
ever did anything that was really, really difficult,
00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:37.430
especially things that didn't quite exist when
00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:40.759
they started out. It has to pursue those things
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.019
with the belief it's going to work. Right. So.
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.400
So, yeah, I love that question because I do have
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.259
a vision in terms of what it could be. And that
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:54.099
is I come from a place in terms of human experience
00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:57.740
now. And it does help to have gray hair in this
00:32:57.740 --> 00:33:01.759
because I've lived a long time, sort of. And
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.779
but that's exposed a lot, a lot, a lot of people.
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:12.599
And what. It's shown me is that nobody gets out
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:18.240
of here unscathed. People live with this false
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.779
view, especially in our, you know, media driven
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.779
culture where we're all supposed to look like
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:26.839
the Kardashians, be really rich and drive the
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:29.160
right cars and, you know, never have any health
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.839
problems and, you know, on and on and on. And
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.259
the reality is nobody lives that way. And so
00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:41.819
the. So what does that mean? It means that everybody,
00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:48.099
everybody gets stuff in their lives. And everybody
00:33:48.099 --> 00:33:50.759
goes through periods where they struggle with
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:54.140
that stuff. And a very, very large percentage
00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.720
of us go off the rails at different points along
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.500
that way. My belief is all of the problems that
00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:05.980
we deal with on a daily basis at Clear Matrix.
00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:09.469
where we are dealing with, in a way, the most
00:34:09.469 --> 00:34:13.949
extreme amongst us, who've had those things happen,
00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:20.670
you know, with a lot of piling on, is that if
00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:26.610
we can show how to help individuals in that condition
00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:33.610
come out of the cold, engage with a system of
00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:38.619
recovery where, It isn't about treatment. In
00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:41.039
fact, we have a very simple motto now at Clear
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.340
Matrix, which is we want to put recovery back
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:47.860
into treatment. In other words, we're not interested
00:34:47.860 --> 00:34:49.599
in taking somebody and giving them seven days
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.000
of detox and patting them on the back and saying,
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:53.480
go back out on the street and see how it goes
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.559
the next time. We're not interested in doing
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.260
that and then giving them 90 days of residential
00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:03.159
and saying, here, good luck. Here's a bus pass.
00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:08.030
What we're really interested in is focusing on
00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.469
that, what's called the acute stage, to get them
00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:19.070
first safe, then stabilized, then beginning to
00:35:19.070 --> 00:35:23.530
get a kind of sense that, oh, there's maybe something
00:35:23.530 --> 00:35:26.690
I can do here, and then provide them with the
00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:31.630
tools to plug in ultimately to the most important
00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:36.750
part of the journey. which is, at the end of
00:35:36.750 --> 00:35:42.949
the day, not necessarily to just not use drugs
00:35:42.949 --> 00:35:50.170
or not abuse alcohol or not act out in mentally
00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:58.690
inappropriate ways. It is to give them a start.
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.980
at grabbing onto a set of principles by which
00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:07.059
they can build a life on. And that when they
00:36:07.059 --> 00:36:11.500
do that, one of the other, I can't exaggerate,
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:16.800
incredible rewards that I get, and I'm talking
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:23.360
about me, for being here, is at least once a
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:27.269
week. somebody comes into my office or somebody
00:36:27.269 --> 00:36:30.110
I'm aware of here as part of what we're trying
00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:36.630
to do is brought to my attention where you look
00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:40.429
at them and you go, you can't get from where
00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:45.030
they were to where they are now. You can't. It's
00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:49.690
not possible that somebody could be so broken
00:36:49.690 --> 00:36:53.400
and yet... Now standing in front of you is this
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.739
individual who is more and more and more daily
00:36:57.739 --> 00:37:00.900
filled with life and vitality and interests and
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:07.119
desires and integrity and a desire to help others
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:11.039
the way they've been helped themselves. That
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:14.780
to me is not just, it certainly happens one person
00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:21.869
at a time, but it is not singular. generalizable.
00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:27.590
And that as a society, what we need are ways
00:37:27.590 --> 00:37:31.489
for many, many, many, many more people who don't
00:37:31.489 --> 00:37:34.809
have to wind up living on the streets to feel
00:37:34.809 --> 00:37:39.769
that they've reached a bottom, to find a connection
00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:43.510
with that kind of future. And if we do that,
00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:50.849
then as a society, our anxiety, our anger, our
00:37:50.849 --> 00:37:57.610
depression, our, you know, extremes will all
00:37:57.610 --> 00:38:02.730
dissipate. And so, because I'm an eternal optimist,
00:38:02.929 --> 00:38:08.329
it will be a better place, not just for me, but
00:38:08.329 --> 00:38:10.690
I just had the week with my son who lives in
00:38:10.690 --> 00:38:13.550
New York, came out to visit me, and I adore my
00:38:13.550 --> 00:38:16.610
son, he's 29, and he just flew back this morning.
00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:22.269
And, you know, When, again, being a parent, when
00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.590
you look at a child, there is this feeling of,
00:38:27.869 --> 00:38:32.449
you know, I want this to be better for you. I
00:38:32.449 --> 00:38:35.989
want this to be better for you. And looking at
00:38:35.989 --> 00:38:38.050
the world we're in, it's sometimes hard to say
00:38:38.050 --> 00:38:41.769
that with all the things that are going on. But
00:38:41.769 --> 00:38:45.869
what I do believe is that it can be better for
00:38:45.869 --> 00:38:53.710
him. And at the end of the day, while I certainly
00:38:53.710 --> 00:38:56.869
don't have much to say about how it all unfolds
00:38:56.869 --> 00:39:00.389
in the big picture, as each individual, you get
00:39:00.389 --> 00:39:02.190
a chance to try and make it a little better.
00:39:02.670 --> 00:39:07.769
And that's your reward. I feel like you create
00:39:07.769 --> 00:39:11.190
the world of folks who keep saying, how can I
00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:14.510
help? And that gets us that much closer to your
00:39:14.510 --> 00:39:18.980
dream state. Right. That's right. Matt Walton,
00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:21.119
thank you so much for sharing your insights and
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.280
expertise with us. And thank you for joining
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.280
us on Doing What Works Innovations and Homeless
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.820
Services. We hope today's conversation has shed
00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:29.639
some light on the complexities of homelessness
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.659
and inspired ideas for change. If you found value
00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:34.780
in this episode, please subscribe, share, and
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:36.900
leave us a review. Together, we can continue
00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:38.880
the dialogue and support the efforts to create
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.719
lasting solutions. Stay tuned for more insights
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:43.920
from the experts leading the way. Until next
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:44.159
time.
