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Announcer: Welcome to Doc working the whole
physician podcast, helping physicians achieve
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the best in life and medicine.
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We hope you enjoy today's episode.
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Mary Leung MD: Now that I think about it, I
was actually slowly getting really burnt out
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because I had no life.
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I didn't really get to spend time with my
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family.
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My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
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go home after 07:00 with work not completed,
just to see my kids and have some bedtime
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stories before tucking them into bed and then to
do more work.
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Dr Jen Barna: Today, I'm so excited to bring
to you our guest, doctor Mary Lung.
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She's a full time hematology and medical
oncology physician practicing in New York,
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board certified in internal medicine, medical
oncology, and hematology, and she's also a
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certified life coach, passionate about serving
physicians who are stressed, overwhelmed, and
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burned out, doctor Mary was working and
charting after hours, many nights and weekends
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until life coaching transformed her life.
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She's now going home at least two and a half
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hours earlier than before, with all her
clinical work completed for the day.
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From the depths of her own experience, Doctor
Mary founded shining with gratitude, Md.
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Her passion and mission is to guide other
physicians through their unique situations so
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they can feel better, have more time outside
of their clinical work, regain control, and
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have more clarity.
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Her hope is for physicians to rediscover joy
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in life and in medicine.
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Doctor Mary Long, welcome to Dockworking the
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whole physician podcast.
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Mary Leung MD: Thank you for having me today.
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Dr Jen Barna: I'm so excited that you're here
because I'm interested in your story.
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I think so many of us have experienced a
similar story as physicians.
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I think when we're going through that, it can
feel very isolating, and I really appreciate
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that you're willing to share your story and be
vulnerable and talk with us about it, because
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I think so many of us are going through
similar struggles.
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And I'm also excited to hear about the ways
that you're helping people to overcome this
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and to accelerate their progress toward what
matters most to them as individuals.
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So please tell me a little bit about your
background and what got you to this place.
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What did you experience?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, and thank you so much for
having me, and it's an honor, and I'm happy to
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share everything that I know and have
experienced.
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So a little bit about my background was, I
think, like many physicians, you know, once we
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decided to become a physician, it was a pretty
straightforward path because we knew that we
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had to satisfy certain school requirements,
going through college, medical school,
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residency training, sometimes fellowship, and
then you become the attending.
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So one point I thought, oh, you know, that was
it?
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And I just had to go to the next point.
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And attending physician was kind of the end
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point, I thought, and I would be, quote
unquote, at the top of the world.
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And when I became an attending about 13 years
ago, I thought, wow, that was it.
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I did it.
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And then at the same time, I didn't really
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feel any different from being a fellow.
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Just the other day and I was starting off
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joining a private practice, and my practice
started to grow.
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I was replacing another physician, and then
three months later, an older physician
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retired.
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So I was getting more and more volume.
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And before I knew it, I was seeing about 25 to
30 patients a day doing hematology and
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oncology.
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At that time, I was still using paper charts.
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And I think one good thing about paper charts
was actually people used to write less.
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Of course, the challenge was that the
handwriting could be difficult to decipher.
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So then slowly I built up that I was actually
charting after hours because I wanted to keep
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the patients as on time as possible according
to their appointment schedule.
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And before I knew it, I was going home past
07:00, even though my last patient was
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supposed to be done by around four, I was
making phone calls.
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I was really trying to write the charts.
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And the situation actually got worse when we
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changed to electronic medical records.
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And at that time, I thought that it was kind
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of a normal thing.
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I saw my partners, they were also charting
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pretty late.
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Certain ones didn't go as late as I did, but
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then I also saw their notes was not as
comprehensive as I wanted my standard to be.
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So, you know, now that I think about it, I was
actually slowly getting really burned out
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because I had no life.
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I didn't really get to spend time with my
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family.
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My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
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go home after 07:00 with work not completed,
just to see my kids and have some bedtime
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stories before tuck them into bed, and then to
do more work after hours.
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So then I think day in and day out for years
that I just became, you know, not really
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enjoying what I did because, you know, I
joined medicine, really want to help people
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and want to develop that special connection
with my patients, not just to heal their
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diagnosis, but really to have that special
human bond.
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And so I didn't really enjoy doing that
anymore because I didn't have the energy,
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mentally or physically to do it.
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So then just fast forward to the pandemic.
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I know no one wanted the pandemic, but I think
there's always something good coming out of
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something bad.
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And what came out of it was that for a while I
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was just seeing a third of the patient mode
and I had a taste of going home on time or
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even earlier than usual.
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So I thought, what if I could do this all the
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time, even when I was back up to the full
patient mode?
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And just right at that time, I think there was
just a godsend thing that I was introduced to
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life coaching, and because I was not as busy,
I had time to explore.
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So I just made the leap of faith that I
thought anything would be better than where I
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was emotionally.
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And if they could help me somehow go home
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earlier, why not?
You know, I could just give it a try.
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So I did.
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I joined women physicians coaching program and
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I was working with a coach, and with her help,
with her guidance, in about three months I was
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going home by 5530 with all my charts done.
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And I think looking back right now, I've been
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doing this, you know, for about two years
consistently going home by around five.
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And looking back, I just couldn't believe I
was, you know, living so long on the other
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side.
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And now I have a life.
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I have time to spend with my family.
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I even have time to, you know, coach other
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physicians to do the same, you know, to manage
the time, to manage their mind and really to
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have a chance to enjoy the medicine that, you
know, what they went in for and enjoy life
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outside of medicine.
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Dr Jen Barna: Well, I love what you're saying,
and of course, I talk with people all the time
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who are staying late, trying to complete their
charting.
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And one thing that I hear people say is that,
you know, I've always been good at time
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management.
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I got through medical school.
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You know, I had to be good at time management
in order to get into medical school and
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through residency.
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So, you know, I don't think I can change this.
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I think I've already optimized it.
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You know, I don't really see how coaching
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could make that much of a difference.
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So for those people that are sort of in that
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mindset, they would love for coaching to work
for them, but they also are a little bit
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hesitant to take the leap.
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First of all, what allowed you to make that
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leap?
And second, what would you say is the
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difference between the time management that we
can figure out on our own and how a coach can
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actually really accelerate your progress and
project you forward in a way that is very
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difficult if not impossible to do on your own?
What's the secret?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it's
a secret, but of course, I'm happy to share my
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own experience.
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I think for me, it was out of desperation.
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I just thought anything, whatever I did,
anything different from what I did would be
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better.
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And so there was that hope that something
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would be better and the belief that something
will be better.
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I just didn't know what it was.
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So I was willing to be open minded and to be
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curious enough to try something, and that
worked for me.
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And so I think for physicians who are like,
I've always been working this way, I've been
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efficient, and I just can't find any way to do
it.
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I'll say, okay, if you can't find it yourself,
why not be a little bit curious and open
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minded to have someone help you, and
especially for someone who has gone through
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this to help you, because, yes, there's no one
size fit all, but even in coaching, you know,
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it's tailor made for you to see what you need.
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And I think one of the biggest thing is really
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to understand or to know exactly what you want
for me is why do I want to go home on time?
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Is because, yes, I want to be efficient, but
the ultimate goal for me is to, because I want
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life outside of medicine and to spend it with
my family.
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So that is my backbone of why I want to do
what I want to do.
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So I think for physicians, it is important to
understand what they want to do, why they want
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to finish the clinic day on time.
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So the other thing is to really believe that
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they can do it, even though in the beginning,
I didn't think that it was possible, but I was
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like, okay, there's this little slight chance
that if I try it, I could do it.
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If I didn't try it, I know for sure that I
couldn't do it.
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So I think it's just that belief that you can
do it, and the next thing is really to commit
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to it, to commit to trying new things, to
trying different methods, and just really
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carry that more positive energy or attitude
that, hey, it is possible to do it, as opposed
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to saying that, you know what?
I haven't been able to do it for years.
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What makes you think that I can do it now?
But just focusing on the possible and what
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kind of energy they're using to fuel you, you
know, are you using the frustration, the
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stress, the anger, or are you using, you know,
like, that you're being motivated, that you're
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focused, that, you know, or the hope, the
content, you know, that type of energy?
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I think the result will be very different.
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And the last thing is actually just do it.
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I think just, of course, having the guidance
helps because that opens you up to different
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possibilities that you probably haven't
thought of.
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And sometimes it is that, you know, maybe it's
also within you that you just need someone to
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point it out, to say, all right, that's it.
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And I have it all along.
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And I believe that every physician has the
potential to finish their clinic day on time,
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and we just need to sometimes find different
methods to do it.
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Sometimes we just need a coach to help you or
a mentor to point out the right direction.
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Dr Jen Barna: Absolutely.
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And you bring up an interesting point in your
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description there because I started out with
the question saying that what many people say
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to me is that, you know, I think I've already
optimized this, but it's just not enough, you
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know?
And so in a way, they're self confident, but
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in a way, they're also having some self doubt
because they don't really know how to go
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forward.
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And I think that can be sort of a circular
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pattern that's hard to break free of, that
sort of combination, if you will, of self
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doubt and confidence.
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And so as a coach, I wonder if you can comment
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about that and how you see that affecting
physicians.
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Mary Leung MD: Yes. So self doubt, I think
many of us equate that to, you know, we're
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doubting our ability to do things, and
sometimes it can even stop us from moving
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forward or making a decision because we're
afraid that we would do something wrong or not
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doing something good enough.
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And, yes, that sometimes can be paralyzing
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you.
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But I think of self doubt, the opposite is of
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self confidence, and it's not a black and
white thing.
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I think self doubt and self confidence is like
a spectrum, or my coach actually described me,
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to me as a pendulum.
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It's kind of like you kind of swing at the two
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extremes at all the time.
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And so I think you were able to find the right
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position at where you have enough self
confidence to go forward, but also a little
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sprinkle of self doubt to question that, hey,
is this the best way to do, or can I learn a
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better way to do things?
Even better.
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But you can still move forward.
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So I think that's kind of the happy medium
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that we can work with self doubt and self
confidence, because I think as long as we
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live, we always have self doubt and we always
have self confidence.
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So we have to realize where we're at.
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Is the self doubt really stopping us from
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moving forward, or is it helping us because,
you know, we want to do things better, but we
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have also the self confidence to really carry
out and execute the things that we want to do.
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Dr Jen Barna: Beautifully said.
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Do you have any tips for someone who might be
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listening, who could walk away from this
conversation with something that they could
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implement right away in terms of helping
themselves to move in the direction of
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finishing charting on time?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah. So I think one of the
most important thing is how you start your
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day.
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So when you wake up in the morning, I'll share
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what I do, or what I've been doing since
coaching is I wake up in the morning being
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thankful, and I'm grateful for just something.
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It can be anything.
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It can be that I'm grateful for a beautiful
day, blue sky, or I'm grateful to be alive, or
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I'm grateful that I don't need the alarm to
wake me up, you know, something like that.
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And when you're grateful, it just carries out
more positive energy to move you on.
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And when I get to my clinic, I'm mainly doing
outpatient care that I just, you know, decided
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that it's going to be a good day.
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You know, I just say that today is going to be
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a good day.
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No matter what.
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I expect surprises to happen, and when they
happen, I was like, oh, that's a surprise, and
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I'll just see how I can deal with it.
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I always share the example, which is not too
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long ago, that I was just in the clinic seeing
patients, 02:00 in the afternoon.
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All of a sudden there was a blackout.
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It was because the transformer exploded, and
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so a few blocks was all blacked out, and we
were like, okay, what do we do with all the
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patients?
And we couldn't even get the blood drawn to
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spin because we had no power and no electronic
medical records.
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So we were just trying to figure out, okay,
for patients who need a chemo, we'll just send
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them out to have blood draw.
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We're just kind of delegating things rather
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than arguing why that happened.
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We use more energy to figure out the solution.
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So I think the important thing is really to
realize what we can control and what we cannot
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control.
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And what we cannot control is we'll just deal
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with it as they come.
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And I think with that mindset, it's just
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easier to go through the day.
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And the other important thing, I think, more
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practical thing to do is really to do your
best to see the patient and do the chart right
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away, or even start writing the chart before
seeing the patient, and write some while
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you're talking to the patient, and then finish
it up, because if you're just spending a few
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more minutes or even five, six more minutes to
finish your chart before seeing the next
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patient.
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You are done with that patient, and when you
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go to the other patient room, you are focused.
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You are just putting your concentration on
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that particular patient as opposed to thinking
back, like, three patients before that, oh, I
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forgot to write something, or, oh, I had to
order this.
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And so I think, you know, with me practicing
doing that consistently is I actually find
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that I spend less time charting because at the
end of the day, my old belief was that, oh,
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yeah, you know what?
I'm already 1520 minutes late.
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Let me call in the next patient so that
they're not waiting for so long.
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But then I suffer at the end of the day
because came 435 o'clock when I finally
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finished seeing the patients, I had all these
charts to write.
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Like, sometimes it could be ten, sometimes it
could even be more charts.
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After seeing 25, 27 patients and I was getting
tired, my brain started to shut down and I
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started to mix things up.
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I was like, oh, did I miss something?
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And it would take me at least two to three
times more time to write the same chart.
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So, you know, it's better off to have the next
patient wait a few minutes longer.
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Then you just spend the whole day or hours
later to write a chart.
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And it may not be as good as if you write it
then and there.
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The other one thing I want to share is also to
really be, I guess, be mindful of
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distractions.
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You know, there are going to be nurses calling
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you for things or their phone calls.
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So if you can set up in your office in a way
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that, oh, you know, really don't bother me or
don't disturb me in the middle of patient
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encounters unless it's an emergency, and you
tell them exactly, you know, what the
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situation is, that they can disrupt you.
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I think that will minimize the distractions
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when you're in the hospital, like, say, being
a hospitalist or inpatient care, you know,
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when nurses call you or they page you, see if
you can just finish quickly what you're doing
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before calling them back.
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Because we cannot really multitask.
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In reality, we're just task switching very
quickly.
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So every time you switch a task, it takes you
that much time to recover and concentrate on
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the next thing.
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And I think the last thing I'll share is to
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actually schedule some breaks because we need
to refuel.
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And I guess as outpatient, probably midday,
the lunchtime is a good time to take a little
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break because you need to refuel physically.
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You need to make sure that you're hydrated,
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you need a bathroom break, you know, and just
walk around a little bit because, you know,
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these days, I know for the electronic medical
records, we're mostly sitting down in front of
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the computer.
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Your eyes even need to break.
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So I think sometimes with just a little break,
even a few minutes when you go back to it in
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the afternoon, you're just that much more
refreshed and be able to focus and just remind
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yourself throughout the day the goal, because,
you know, you want to go home on time for
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whatever reason it is, and just really be
hopeful and generate the kind of positive
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energy that you want to generate.
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And just really, it sounds pretty simple.
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It's not necessarily the easiest thing to do,
but it is definitely possible because I'm a
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living and breathing example and I'm just an
ordinary person, a physician, and it didn't
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happen overnight, but it's definitely doable.
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Dr Jen Barna: I really love the examples that
you're giving there because they are directly
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applicable.
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And for all of the steps you've outlined, I
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can see in my practice how much putting those
steps to use has helped me as well.
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Like, for example, when I'm getting called,
I'm a radiologist, so when I'm getting called
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on patients and I'm making diagnostic
decisions and I have multiple calls coming in,
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multiple patients kind of scheduled from
different places at the same time, I used to
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listen, you know, look at the case, make a
decision and give a verbal decision and then
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save it to dictate later because I had my
phone was ringing off the hook and I would go
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to the next case and the next case and the
next case and keep notes.
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But what I found is, of course, at the end of
the day, when you open up a case that you
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started earlier, you have to basically start
from the beginning.
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So you're investing much more time per case
because you have to look at everything all
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over again.
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You have to be sure that, you know, your mind
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is fresh on every single thing that's
happened, whereas in real time, you're looking
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at that, you're making a decision.
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You don't have to later revisit how you got to
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that decision before you dictate.
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So it saves so much time to just say, hold on
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just a minute, I'm going to finish this case
that I'm on and I'll get right to you.
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And it only, you know, is a couple of minutes
wait for whoever's wanting to talk to you next
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while you finish what you're doing.
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And I can imagine if you're in the clinic and
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you're seeing patients, it must be the same
pressure.
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You know, that the rooms are full, people are
waiting, but you really have to just take that
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time for the sake of the patient and for the
sake of yourself, and just finish that
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patient's notes, everything about your plan
before you go on to the next patient.
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And it does sound easier than it is to do, but
once you change the way you operate and
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everyone around you gets used to it, then it
actually works really well.
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And I love also your advice about taking
breaks, which I think is something that is.
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It's easy to just glance down at your phone
and there was, you know, a five minute break
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that you could have taken where you could have
walked outside for five minutes, but instead
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you checked your emails or you looked at the
news or something like that.
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It's so easy to slip into that.
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But if you're aware of it, you can
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intentionally make a plan that you're going to
aim for a five minute break at a specific
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point that you know that's possible.
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And then five minutes, no one will complain
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that you're away.
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Mary Leung MD: Exactly.
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Dr Jen Barna: Outside, you can take the long
way around the building, outside to the
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cafeteria or wherever you're getting lunch or
whatever the case may be.
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But I think you, you know, you're really
hitting some important points, which sounds
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simple, but I think having an accountability
partner to walk you through, really making
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those into new habits, can be a huge game
changer.
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I have one other question for you, which I'm
just curious.
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Mom to mom or physician mom to physician mom,
how has your education to become a life coach
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and the transformation that you personally
experienced, how has that influenced the way
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you parent?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, well, first of all, I'm
happier.
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So I think just being happier and more
grateful in general, that is kind of some
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unspoken language that my family can
experience.
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So I think they can experience that.
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I am just, in general, a more positive person,
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and it's just easier to talk to.
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And for me, it's.
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I think my kids are, you know, they don't
listen to me all the time, which is normal,
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but I think that we're able to have more in
depth conversations.
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And I also ask them at night what went well.
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And that's one of the things that my coach
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asked me on a regular basis, like what went
well?
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So I have my kids tell me, okay, what went
well?
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And kind of just end the night or the day with
a nice note to remember, to really celebrate
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little things, because why not?
Yeah, things have happened already.
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And.
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And I think the more we celebrate, the more we
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generate a more pleasant emotion.
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And since we all have to experience the
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pleasant and unpleasant emotions, why not do
something to make our pleasant ones have more
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airtime?
And I think that feels better.
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So I think parenting part is really great.
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I think some of my friends, they're not super
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happy or they feel like, oh, you know, when
the kids are off or, you know, in the summer
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vacation time, they kind of say that, oh, you
know, I have to deal with them all day long.
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To me, it's a privilege.
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I feel like, you know, like even being able to
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drive them to their swimming lessons or being
able to participate certain, you know, school
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things, to me, it's great.
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And even, I know it sounds funny, like, even
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being able to do dishes, you know, for me,
it's kind of a great thing because I feel
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like, oh, you know, I'm working all these
hours and of course, now, you know, I'm able
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to match the time so much better.
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So I actually have the privilege to do
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housework.
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I know it sounds kind of silly, but it's just
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like, you know, I think to me, that's also
part of parenting, to show them that, hey, you
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know, you can do this, and I show them how to
do laundry.
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And I also spend time with my daughter.
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Like, we would cook or bake, you know, and I
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actually teach her how to make egg tarts,
which is, you know, one of the biggest Hong
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00:27:39,478 --> 00:27:40,886
Kong dessert to do.
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So it's a lot of steps, but she's able to do
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it.
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So we're able to just share that special bond.
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And I think love is expressed in different
ways.
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And I think to me, to be able to do these kind
of day to day little things, I would just
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cherish that forever in my life.
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Dr Jen Barna: Yes. That is so beautifully
said.
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I really love that idea of asking yourself and
people that you love, especially your kids, if
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you have kids, what went well today?
What a wonderful point of reflection at the
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end of the day and way to ask for a
conversation with a child when if you just
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say, how was your day?
You likely get a fine, you know, a one word
416
00:28:26,284 --> 00:28:26,916
answer.
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00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:30,076
That's such a wonderful question and a way to
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help someone to reflect on the positive points
from the day.
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Because as you mentioned, there are thousands
of thoughts that go through our mind and there
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are thousands of stimuli that we can choose to
notice or not notice at any given point.
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And so choosing to notice the positive ones
can have a huge impact on your life as well.
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Maybe we could even have you share your recipe
with us and we'll include it in the show
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00:28:54,376 --> 00:28:55,004
notes.
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Mary Leung MD: Okay, I don't have a set one,
but yes, I'm happy to share anything.
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00:29:02,704 --> 00:29:03,472
Dr Jen Barna: Awesome.
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00:29:03,608 --> 00:29:07,064
Well, doctor Mary Long, thank you so much for
427
00:29:07,104 --> 00:29:12,704
coming and sharing so much wisdom with us on
today's episode of dockworking the whole
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00:29:12,744 --> 00:29:14,176
physician podcast.
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00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,416
Please let us know how people can reach you if
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they want to reach out and work with you as a
coach or if they have additional questions for
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00:29:23,634 --> 00:29:24,214
you.
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00:29:24,714 --> 00:29:31,610
Mary Leung MD: Yes. So you can email
me at shiningwithgratitudemd@gmail.com and you can
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also visit my website at
www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com I publish a
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00:29:39,130 --> 00:29:45,850
blog post twice a week on the same website,
www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com forward slash
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00:29:45,922 --> 00:29:46,498
blog.
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00:29:46,626 --> 00:29:50,146
You can also find me on Facebook, marylung and
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00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:51,842
linkedin at marylungmd.
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Dr Jen Barna: Terrific.
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00:29:52,706 --> 00:29:55,802
Thank you again for sharing your wisdom and I
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00:29:55,818 --> 00:29:57,914
look forward to future conversations with you.
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00:29:57,994 --> 00:29:59,458
Mary Leung MD: Yes, thank you so much for
having.
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00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:05,978
Dr Jen Barna: Me today and thank you for
joining us listening to this conversation and
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00:30:06,026 --> 00:30:12,254
we hope that you will join us for future
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Doc working.
00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,206
Announcer: Welcome to Doc working the whole
physician podcast, helping physicians achieve
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00:00:08,230 --> 00:00:09,990
the best in life and medicine.
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00:00:10,142 --> 00:00:12,314
We hope you enjoy today's episode.
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Mary Leung MD: Now that I think about it, I
was actually slowly getting really burnt out
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00:00:21,446 --> 00:00:24,198
because I had no life.
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I didn't really get to spend time with my
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00:00:27,878 --> 00:00:28,462
family.
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00:00:28,598 --> 00:00:31,430
My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
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00:00:31,462 --> 00:00:38,790
go home after 07:00 with work not completed,
just to see my kids and have some bedtime
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stories before tucking them into bed and then to
do more work.
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Dr Jen Barna: Today, I'm so excited to bring
to you our guest, doctor Mary Lung.
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She's a full time hematology and medical
oncology physician practicing in New York,
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board certified in internal medicine, medical
oncology, and hematology, and she's also a
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certified life coach, passionate about serving
physicians who are stressed, overwhelmed, and
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burned out, doctor Mary was working and
charting after hours, many nights and weekends
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until life coaching transformed her life.
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She's now going home at least two and a half
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hours earlier than before, with all her
clinical work completed for the day.
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From the depths of her own experience, Doctor
Mary founded shining with gratitude, Md.
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Her passion and mission is to guide other
physicians through their unique situations so
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they can feel better, have more time outside
of their clinical work, regain control, and
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have more clarity.
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Her hope is for physicians to rediscover joy
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in life and in medicine.
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Doctor Mary Long, welcome to Dockworking the
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whole physician podcast.
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Mary Leung MD: Thank you for having me today.
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Dr Jen Barna: I'm so excited that you're here
because I'm interested in your story.
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I think so many of us have experienced a
similar story as physicians.
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I think when we're going through that, it can
feel very isolating, and I really appreciate
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that you're willing to share your story and be
vulnerable and talk with us about it, because
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I think so many of us are going through
similar struggles.
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And I'm also excited to hear about the ways
that you're helping people to overcome this
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and to accelerate their progress toward what
matters most to them as individuals.
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So please tell me a little bit about your
background and what got you to this place.
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What did you experience?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, and thank you so much for
having me, and it's an honor, and I'm happy to
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share everything that I know and have
experienced.
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So a little bit about my background was, I
think, like many physicians, you know, once we
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decided to become a physician, it was a pretty
straightforward path because we knew that we
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had to satisfy certain school requirements,
going through college, medical school,
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residency training, sometimes fellowship, and
then you become the attending.
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So one point I thought, oh, you know, that was
it?
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And I just had to go to the next point.
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And attending physician was kind of the end
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point, I thought, and I would be, quote
unquote, at the top of the world.
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And when I became an attending about 13 years
ago, I thought, wow, that was it.
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I did it.
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And then at the same time, I didn't really
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feel any different from being a fellow.
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Just the other day and I was starting off
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joining a private practice, and my practice
started to grow.
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I was replacing another physician, and then
three months later, an older physician
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retired.
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So I was getting more and more volume.
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And before I knew it, I was seeing about 25 to
30 patients a day doing hematology and
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oncology.
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At that time, I was still using paper charts.
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And I think one good thing about paper charts
was actually people used to write less.
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Of course, the challenge was that the
handwriting could be difficult to decipher.
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So then slowly I built up that I was actually
charting after hours because I wanted to keep
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the patients as on time as possible according
to their appointment schedule.
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And before I knew it, I was going home past
07:00, even though my last patient was
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supposed to be done by around four, I was
making phone calls.
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I was really trying to write the charts.
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And the situation actually got worse when we
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changed to electronic medical records.
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And at that time, I thought that it was kind
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of a normal thing.
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I saw my partners, they were also charting
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pretty late.
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Certain ones didn't go as late as I did, but
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then I also saw their notes was not as
comprehensive as I wanted my standard to be.
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So, you know, now that I think about it, I was
actually slowly getting really burned out
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because I had no life.
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I didn't really get to spend time with my
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family.
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My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
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go home after 07:00 with work not completed,
just to see my kids and have some bedtime
80
00:05:51,872 --> 00:05:57,854
stories before tuck them into bed, and then to
do more work after hours.
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So then I think day in and day out for years
that I just became, you know, not really
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enjoying what I did because, you know, I
joined medicine, really want to help people
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and want to develop that special connection
with my patients, not just to heal their
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diagnosis, but really to have that special
human bond.
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And so I didn't really enjoy doing that
anymore because I didn't have the energy,
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mentally or physically to do it.
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So then just fast forward to the pandemic.
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I know no one wanted the pandemic, but I think
there's always something good coming out of
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something bad.
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And what came out of it was that for a while I
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was just seeing a third of the patient mode
and I had a taste of going home on time or
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even earlier than usual.
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So I thought, what if I could do this all the
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time, even when I was back up to the full
patient mode?
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And just right at that time, I think there was
just a godsend thing that I was introduced to
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life coaching, and because I was not as busy,
I had time to explore.
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So I just made the leap of faith that I
thought anything would be better than where I
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was emotionally.
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And if they could help me somehow go home
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earlier, why not?
You know, I could just give it a try.
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So I did.
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I joined women physicians coaching program and
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I was working with a coach, and with her help,
with her guidance, in about three months I was
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going home by 5530 with all my charts done.
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And I think looking back right now, I've been
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doing this, you know, for about two years
consistently going home by around five.
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And looking back, I just couldn't believe I
was, you know, living so long on the other
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side.
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And now I have a life.
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I have time to spend with my family.
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I even have time to, you know, coach other
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physicians to do the same, you know, to manage
the time, to manage their mind and really to
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have a chance to enjoy the medicine that, you
know, what they went in for and enjoy life
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outside of medicine.
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Dr Jen Barna: Well, I love what you're saying,
and of course, I talk with people all the time
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who are staying late, trying to complete their
charting.
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And one thing that I hear people say is that,
you know, I've always been good at time
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management.
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I got through medical school.
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You know, I had to be good at time management
in order to get into medical school and
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through residency.
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So, you know, I don't think I can change this.
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I think I've already optimized it.
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You know, I don't really see how coaching
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could make that much of a difference.
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So for those people that are sort of in that
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mindset, they would love for coaching to work
for them, but they also are a little bit
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hesitant to take the leap.
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First of all, what allowed you to make that
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leap?
And second, what would you say is the
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difference between the time management that we
can figure out on our own and how a coach can
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actually really accelerate your progress and
project you forward in a way that is very
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difficult if not impossible to do on your own?
What's the secret?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it's
a secret, but of course, I'm happy to share my
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own experience.
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I think for me, it was out of desperation.
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I just thought anything, whatever I did,
anything different from what I did would be
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better.
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And so there was that hope that something
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would be better and the belief that something
will be better.
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I just didn't know what it was.
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So I was willing to be open minded and to be
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curious enough to try something, and that
worked for me.
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And so I think for physicians who are like,
I've always been working this way, I've been
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efficient, and I just can't find any way to do
it.
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I'll say, okay, if you can't find it yourself,
why not be a little bit curious and open
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minded to have someone help you, and
especially for someone who has gone through
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this to help you, because, yes, there's no one
size fit all, but even in coaching, you know,
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it's tailor made for you to see what you need.
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And I think one of the biggest thing is really
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to understand or to know exactly what you want
for me is why do I want to go home on time?
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Is because, yes, I want to be efficient, but
the ultimate goal for me is to, because I want
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life outside of medicine and to spend it with
my family.
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So that is my backbone of why I want to do
what I want to do.
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So I think for physicians, it is important to
understand what they want to do, why they want
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to finish the clinic day on time.
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So the other thing is to really believe that
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they can do it, even though in the beginning,
I didn't think that it was possible, but I was
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like, okay, there's this little slight chance
that if I try it, I could do it.
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If I didn't try it, I know for sure that I
couldn't do it.
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So I think it's just that belief that you can
do it, and the next thing is really to commit
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to it, to commit to trying new things, to
trying different methods, and just really
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carry that more positive energy or attitude
that, hey, it is possible to do it, as opposed
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to saying that, you know what?
I haven't been able to do it for years.
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What makes you think that I can do it now?
But just focusing on the possible and what
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kind of energy they're using to fuel you, you
know, are you using the frustration, the
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00:12:02,152 --> 00:12:07,880
stress, the anger, or are you using, you know,
like, that you're being motivated, that you're
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focused, that, you know, or the hope, the
content, you know, that type of energy?
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I think the result will be very different.
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And the last thing is actually just do it.
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I think just, of course, having the guidance
helps because that opens you up to different
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possibilities that you probably haven't
thought of.
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And sometimes it is that, you know, maybe it's
also within you that you just need someone to
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point it out, to say, all right, that's it.
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And I have it all along.
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And I believe that every physician has the
potential to finish their clinic day on time,
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and we just need to sometimes find different
methods to do it.
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Sometimes we just need a coach to help you or
a mentor to point out the right direction.
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Dr Jen Barna: Absolutely.
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And you bring up an interesting point in your
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description there because I started out with
the question saying that what many people say
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to me is that, you know, I think I've already
optimized this, but it's just not enough, you
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know?
And so in a way, they're self confident, but
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in a way, they're also having some self doubt
because they don't really know how to go
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forward.
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And I think that can be sort of a circular
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pattern that's hard to break free of, that
sort of combination, if you will, of self
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doubt and confidence.
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And so as a coach, I wonder if you can comment
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about that and how you see that affecting
physicians.
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Mary Leung MD: Yes. So self doubt, I think
many of us equate that to, you know, we're
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doubting our ability to do things, and
sometimes it can even stop us from moving
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forward or making a decision because we're
afraid that we would do something wrong or not
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doing something good enough.
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And, yes, that sometimes can be paralyzing
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you.
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But I think of self doubt, the opposite is of
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self confidence, and it's not a black and
white thing.
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I think self doubt and self confidence is like
a spectrum, or my coach actually described me,
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to me as a pendulum.
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It's kind of like you kind of swing at the two
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extremes at all the time.
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And so I think you were able to find the right
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position at where you have enough self
confidence to go forward, but also a little
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sprinkle of self doubt to question that, hey,
is this the best way to do, or can I learn a
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better way to do things?
Even better.
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But you can still move forward.
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So I think that's kind of the happy medium
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that we can work with self doubt and self
confidence, because I think as long as we
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live, we always have self doubt and we always
have self confidence.
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So we have to realize where we're at.
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Is the self doubt really stopping us from
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moving forward, or is it helping us because,
you know, we want to do things better, but we
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have also the self confidence to really carry
out and execute the things that we want to do.
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Dr Jen Barna: Beautifully said.
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Do you have any tips for someone who might be
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listening, who could walk away from this
conversation with something that they could
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implement right away in terms of helping
themselves to move in the direction of
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finishing charting on time?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah. So I think one of the
most important thing is how you start your
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day.
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So when you wake up in the morning, I'll share
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what I do, or what I've been doing since
coaching is I wake up in the morning being
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thankful, and I'm grateful for just something.
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It can be anything.
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It can be that I'm grateful for a beautiful
day, blue sky, or I'm grateful to be alive, or
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I'm grateful that I don't need the alarm to
wake me up, you know, something like that.
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And when you're grateful, it just carries out
more positive energy to move you on.
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And when I get to my clinic, I'm mainly doing
outpatient care that I just, you know, decided
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that it's going to be a good day.
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You know, I just say that today is going to be
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a good day.
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No matter what.
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I expect surprises to happen, and when they
happen, I was like, oh, that's a surprise, and
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I'll just see how I can deal with it.
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I always share the example, which is not too
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long ago, that I was just in the clinic seeing
patients, 02:00 in the afternoon.
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All of a sudden there was a blackout.
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It was because the transformer exploded, and
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so a few blocks was all blacked out, and we
were like, okay, what do we do with all the
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patients?
And we couldn't even get the blood drawn to
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spin because we had no power and no electronic
medical records.
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So we were just trying to figure out, okay,
for patients who need a chemo, we'll just send
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them out to have blood draw.
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We're just kind of delegating things rather
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than arguing why that happened.
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We use more energy to figure out the solution.
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So I think the important thing is really to
realize what we can control and what we cannot
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control.
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And what we cannot control is we'll just deal
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with it as they come.
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And I think with that mindset, it's just
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easier to go through the day.
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And the other important thing, I think, more
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practical thing to do is really to do your
best to see the patient and do the chart right
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away, or even start writing the chart before
seeing the patient, and write some while
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you're talking to the patient, and then finish
it up, because if you're just spending a few
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more minutes or even five, six more minutes to
finish your chart before seeing the next
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patient.
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You are done with that patient, and when you
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go to the other patient room, you are focused.
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You are just putting your concentration on
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that particular patient as opposed to thinking
back, like, three patients before that, oh, I
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forgot to write something, or, oh, I had to
order this.
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And so I think, you know, with me practicing
doing that consistently is I actually find
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that I spend less time charting because at the
end of the day, my old belief was that, oh,
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yeah, you know what?
I'm already 1520 minutes late.
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Let me call in the next patient so that
they're not waiting for so long.
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But then I suffer at the end of the day
because came 435 o'clock when I finally
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finished seeing the patients, I had all these
charts to write.
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Like, sometimes it could be ten, sometimes it
could even be more charts.
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After seeing 25, 27 patients and I was getting
tired, my brain started to shut down and I
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started to mix things up.
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I was like, oh, did I miss something?
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And it would take me at least two to three
times more time to write the same chart.
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So, you know, it's better off to have the next
patient wait a few minutes longer.
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Then you just spend the whole day or hours
later to write a chart.
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And it may not be as good as if you write it
then and there.
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The other one thing I want to share is also to
really be, I guess, be mindful of
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distractions.
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You know, there are going to be nurses calling
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you for things or their phone calls.
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So if you can set up in your office in a way
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that, oh, you know, really don't bother me or
don't disturb me in the middle of patient
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encounters unless it's an emergency, and you
tell them exactly, you know, what the
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situation is, that they can disrupt you.
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I think that will minimize the distractions
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when you're in the hospital, like, say, being
a hospitalist or inpatient care, you know,
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when nurses call you or they page you, see if
you can just finish quickly what you're doing
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before calling them back.
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Because we cannot really multitask.
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In reality, we're just task switching very
quickly.
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So every time you switch a task, it takes you
that much time to recover and concentrate on
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the next thing.
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And I think the last thing I'll share is to
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actually schedule some breaks because we need
to refuel.
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And I guess as outpatient, probably midday,
the lunchtime is a good time to take a little
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break because you need to refuel physically.
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You need to make sure that you're hydrated,
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you need a bathroom break, you know, and just
walk around a little bit because, you know,
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these days, I know for the electronic medical
records, we're mostly sitting down in front of
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the computer.
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Your eyes even need to break.
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So I think sometimes with just a little break,
even a few minutes when you go back to it in
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the afternoon, you're just that much more
refreshed and be able to focus and just remind
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yourself throughout the day the goal, because,
you know, you want to go home on time for
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whatever reason it is, and just really be
hopeful and generate the kind of positive
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energy that you want to generate.
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And just really, it sounds pretty simple.
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It's not necessarily the easiest thing to do,
but it is definitely possible because I'm a
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living and breathing example and I'm just an
ordinary person, a physician, and it didn't
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happen overnight, but it's definitely doable.
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Dr Jen Barna: I really love the examples that
you're giving there because they are directly
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applicable.
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And for all of the steps you've outlined, I
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can see in my practice how much putting those
steps to use has helped me as well.
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Like, for example, when I'm getting called,
I'm a radiologist, so when I'm getting called
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on patients and I'm making diagnostic
decisions and I have multiple calls coming in,
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multiple patients kind of scheduled from
different places at the same time, I used to
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listen, you know, look at the case, make a
decision and give a verbal decision and then
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save it to dictate later because I had my
phone was ringing off the hook and I would go
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to the next case and the next case and the
next case and keep notes.
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But what I found is, of course, at the end of
the day, when you open up a case that you
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started earlier, you have to basically start
from the beginning.
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So you're investing much more time per case
because you have to look at everything all
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over again.
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You have to be sure that, you know, your mind
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is fresh on every single thing that's
happened, whereas in real time, you're looking
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at that, you're making a decision.
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You don't have to later revisit how you got to
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that decision before you dictate.
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So it saves so much time to just say, hold on
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just a minute, I'm going to finish this case
that I'm on and I'll get right to you.
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And it only, you know, is a couple of minutes
wait for whoever's wanting to talk to you next
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while you finish what you're doing.
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And I can imagine if you're in the clinic and
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you're seeing patients, it must be the same
pressure.
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You know, that the rooms are full, people are
waiting, but you really have to just take that
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time for the sake of the patient and for the
sake of yourself, and just finish that
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patient's notes, everything about your plan
before you go on to the next patient.
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And it does sound easier than it is to do, but
once you change the way you operate and
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everyone around you gets used to it, then it
actually works really well.
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And I love also your advice about taking
breaks, which I think is something that is.
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It's easy to just glance down at your phone
and there was, you know, a five minute break
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that you could have taken where you could have
walked outside for five minutes, but instead
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you checked your emails or you looked at the
news or something like that.
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It's so easy to slip into that.
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But if you're aware of it, you can
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intentionally make a plan that you're going to
aim for a five minute break at a specific
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point that you know that's possible.
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And then five minutes, no one will complain
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that you're away.
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Mary Leung MD: Exactly.
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Dr Jen Barna: Outside, you can take the long
way around the building, outside to the
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cafeteria or wherever you're getting lunch or
whatever the case may be.
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But I think you, you know, you're really
hitting some important points, which sounds
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simple, but I think having an accountability
partner to walk you through, really making
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those into new habits, can be a huge game
changer.
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I have one other question for you, which I'm
just curious.
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Mom to mom or physician mom to physician mom,
how has your education to become a life coach
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and the transformation that you personally
experienced, how has that influenced the way
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you parent?
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Mary Leung MD: Yeah, well, first of all, I'm
happier.
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So I think just being happier and more
grateful in general, that is kind of some
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unspoken language that my family can
experience.
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So I think they can experience that.
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I am just, in general, a more positive person,
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and it's just easier to talk to.
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And for me, it's.
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I think my kids are, you know, they don't
listen to me all the time, which is normal,
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but I think that we're able to have more in
depth conversations.
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And I also ask them at night what went well.
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And that's one of the things that my coach
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asked me on a regular basis, like what went
well?
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So I have my kids tell me, okay, what went
well?
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And kind of just end the night or the day with
a nice note to remember, to really celebrate
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little things, because why not?
Yeah, things have happened already.
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And.
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And I think the more we celebrate, the more we
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generate a more pleasant emotion.
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And since we all have to experience the
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pleasant and unpleasant emotions, why not do
something to make our pleasant ones have more
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airtime?
And I think that feels better.
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So I think parenting part is really great.
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I think some of my friends, they're not super
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happy or they feel like, oh, you know, when
the kids are off or, you know, in the summer
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vacation time, they kind of say that, oh, you
know, I have to deal with them all day long.
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To me, it's a privilege.
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I feel like, you know, like even being able to
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drive them to their swimming lessons or being
able to participate certain, you know, school
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things, to me, it's great.
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And even, I know it sounds funny, like, even
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being able to do dishes, you know, for me,
it's kind of a great thing because I feel
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like, oh, you know, I'm working all these
hours and of course, now, you know, I'm able
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to match the time so much better.
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So I actually have the privilege to do
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housework.
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I know it sounds kind of silly, but it's just
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like, you know, I think to me, that's also
part of parenting, to show them that, hey, you
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know, you can do this, and I show them how to
do laundry.
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And I also spend time with my daughter.
402
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Like, we would cook or bake, you know, and I
403
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actually teach her how to make egg tarts,
which is, you know, one of the biggest Hong
404
00:27:39,478 --> 00:27:40,886
Kong dessert to do.
405
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:43,342
So it's a lot of steps, but she's able to do
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it.
407
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So we're able to just share that special bond.
408
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And I think love is expressed in different
ways.
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00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:57,750
And I think to me, to be able to do these kind
of day to day little things, I would just
410
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cherish that forever in my life.
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00:28:00,078 --> 00:28:01,956
Dr Jen Barna: Yes. That is so beautifully
said.
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I really love that idea of asking yourself and
people that you love, especially your kids, if
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00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:15,012
you have kids, what went well today?
What a wonderful point of reflection at the
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end of the day and way to ask for a
conversation with a child when if you just
415
00:28:21,884 --> 00:28:26,244
say, how was your day?
You likely get a fine, you know, a one word
416
00:28:26,284 --> 00:28:26,916
answer.
417
00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:30,076
That's such a wonderful question and a way to
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help someone to reflect on the positive points
from the day.
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00:28:33,604 --> 00:28:38,412
Because as you mentioned, there are thousands
of thoughts that go through our mind and there
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00:28:38,428 --> 00:28:42,784
are thousands of stimuli that we can choose to
notice or not notice at any given point.
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And so choosing to notice the positive ones
can have a huge impact on your life as well.
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Maybe we could even have you share your recipe
with us and we'll include it in the show
423
00:28:54,376 --> 00:28:55,004
notes.
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00:28:57,064 --> 00:29:01,684
Mary Leung MD: Okay, I don't have a set one,
but yes, I'm happy to share anything.
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00:29:02,704 --> 00:29:03,472
Dr Jen Barna: Awesome.
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00:29:03,608 --> 00:29:07,064
Well, doctor Mary Long, thank you so much for
427
00:29:07,104 --> 00:29:12,704
coming and sharing so much wisdom with us on
today's episode of dockworking the whole
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00:29:12,744 --> 00:29:14,176
physician podcast.
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00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,416
Please let us know how people can reach you if
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they want to reach out and work with you as a
coach or if they have additional questions for
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00:29:23,634 --> 00:29:24,214
you.
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00:29:24,714 --> 00:29:31,610
Mary Leung MD: Yes. So you can email
me at shiningwithgratitudemd@gmail.com and you can
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also visit my website at
www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com I publish a
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blog post twice a week on the same website,
www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com forward slash
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blog.
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You can also find me on Facebook, marylung and
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00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:51,842
linkedin at marylungmd.
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00:29:51,938 --> 00:29:52,578
Dr Jen Barna: Terrific.
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00:29:52,706 --> 00:29:55,802
Thank you again for sharing your wisdom and I
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00:29:55,818 --> 00:29:57,914
look forward to future conversations with you.
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00:29:57,994 --> 00:29:59,458
Mary Leung MD: Yes, thank you so much for
having.
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00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:05,978
Dr Jen Barna: Me today and thank you for
joining us listening to this conversation and
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00:30:06,026 --> 00:30:12,254
we hope that you will join us for future
conversations on the doc working whole
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00:30:12,294 --> 00:30:13,634
physician podcast.
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00:30:18,414 --> 00:30:21,974
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Doc
working the whole physician podcast.
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00:30:22,134 --> 00:30:26,350
If you enjoyed this episode, then please give
us a five star review wherever you listen to
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00:30:26,382 --> 00:30:27,302
your podcast.
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00:30:27,438 --> 00:30:29,494
This will really help us reach a larger
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audience.
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00:30:30,694 --> 00:30:32,830
You can find more resources to help you
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00:30:32,862 --> 00:30:35,238
achieve the best in your life on our website.
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00:30:35,326 --> 00:30:36,514
Doc working.
