WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:15.679
Welcome to DIS join it. Our
podcast mission is to bring a voice so
2
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:21.600
the problems facing decisionmaking in the built
environment today. Communication and processes are disjointed.
3
00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:25.480
In the world of design and construction. Work happens across tools, teams
4
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:30.000
and timelines, making it hard to
keep everyone connected. It's a constant challenge
5
00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:35.640
to reduce friction and meet project expectations. We believe there's a better way.
6
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:42.399
Well, welcome to another episode.
I'm excited for today. My Pal in
7
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:47.039
trouble over here, the one I
like to travel around and get in trouble
8
00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:52.200
with, mainly on ski slopes,
Jake Olson. How you doing great,
9
00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:55.399
Jeff, good to see you.
It's great to see you. Jake and
10
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.240
I usually meet up at least once
or twice a year on a ski slope,
11
00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.000
so I just got to give him
a little bit of junk although we
12
00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:03.159
haven't seen each other this year.
JAKES, we're going to have to get
13
00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.719
that on the list. We're do
we will all right. Well, Hey,
14
00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.359
jake, introduce yourself to everybody who
doesn't already know you. Give a
15
00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:14.079
little bit of background on on you
and what you're up to these days.
16
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:18.079
Cool. Yeah, thank you.
My name is Jack Olson. Been in
17
00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.599
the construction industry for about twenty years
now. Started as a structural engineer and
18
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.599
then got more into the building products
and probably the last ten years or so
19
00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:33.599
been really focused on software. So
I'm currently CEO of a company called Dato.
20
00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.640
We are a effectively and intelligent document
management platform for contractors, primarily trade
21
00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:46.359
contractors. Subcontractors, is where most
of our businesses so it's been great getting
22
00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.560
really close to a lot of projects, really close to a lot of people
23
00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.040
in the industry and getting down deep
into workflows and and how things are built
24
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.959
today. And specifically we see a
lot of what's changing today from when I
25
00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.439
started the industry anyway. Well,
and you know you underplay that a little
26
00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.799
bit, I haven't known you in
that ten years that you've been involved in
27
00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.360
it and it's been a fantastic run. Your wealth of information. You know,
28
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:15.080
Dato was built out of a lot
of the learning that you did over
29
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:19.599
time. So when we talk about
disjointed and when I say disjointed this this
30
00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.240
brings out a lot of emotion from
you. So when you here disjointed,
31
00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.960
what does it mean to you?
Yeah, we had a really unique experience
32
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.879
when we started Dado of being able
to kind of push pause for a few
33
00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.840
months before we started writing code,
before we started building a product, and
34
00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:42.719
we spend about four months just interviewing
people in the industry. Really fantastic process.
35
00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:46.639
I thought I knew everything, of
course, but there's there's something to
36
00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.280
be said about just having an open
book, a not an agenda, but
37
00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.319
really just opened in the questions about
problems in the industry and we kind of
38
00:02:53.319 --> 00:03:00.120
mapped out all the stakeholders, so
everything from apprentices to building officials to know,
39
00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.000
we talked to the fire marshals to
code and design and then all through
40
00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:08.120
the construction phase, you know,
from architects, engineers, contractors, all
41
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:14.120
the different stakeholders in the contractor and
I think one of the big so,
42
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.560
you know, we were out to
find problems or to really understand the challenges
43
00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:22.199
of what's going on, and I
think what became really apparent to us was
44
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.719
we have a lot of new technology
coming into construction, a lot of fanfare
45
00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:32.560
around this. It's today easier than
ever to create digital information around a project
46
00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.240
that might be design changes and might
be updated. A model might be,
47
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:43.000
you know, pump proving some middles. It's easier than ever to create information
48
00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.800
it's harder than ever to keep track
of it and to keep that entire project
49
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.439
team up to date. And this
kind of we started calling it the digital
50
00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:55.560
divide. But the gap between kind
of the people who are in the know
51
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:00.919
of the information and everybody else,
I think, is increasing and there's gaps
52
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.680
between stakeholders. There's gaps within companies. For example, a project manager might
53
00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:09.759
be getting updates by email, somebody
in the field isn't being kept up to
54
00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.960
date in the same way. So
that, for me, is what disjointed
55
00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.319
means. It is this huge kind
of information gap in construction and, as
56
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.680
I said, it's getting worse,
not better, as things more and more
57
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.279
get digitized. It's funny you say
that, because you'd always think it would
58
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.800
go the opposite way, but I
think in digitization it actually usually has a
59
00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.600
did and see to get a little
bit more chaotic before it gets a little
60
00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:38.720
bit more predictable. So it's a
little chaos before order. But you talked
61
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.240
about it. We've, you know, you've listened into the season and we've
62
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.639
talked a lot about it and immediately
when we started talking about it, you
63
00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:49.759
you went into hey, wait,
when you say you've interviewed the team defined
64
00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:54.199
the team. I mean talk a
little bit more about that. Yeah,
65
00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:59.279
I've enjoyed the season so far.
So congratulations on launching a great podcast,
66
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.759
some great interviews, I think.
You know what I think that comes out
67
00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.959
to me, which I believe in
as one of the solutions to our kind
68
00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.480
of disjointedness, is actually better educated
owners, people who actually get involved in
69
00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.160
the construction process. But I think
from what I've seen so far there's still
70
00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.800
some shortcomings to this. And you
know, I worked on the apple campus
71
00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:24.759
here and they were heavily involved in
construction. And you can you can pick
72
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.519
your list of other big tech companies
that have built and a lot of them
73
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.959
have hired significant construction teams into their
business to build these campuses and data centers
74
00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.879
and what what have you. I
think what's gets messed is is when we
75
00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.199
try to say, Hey, we're
going to bring the whole team in early,
76
00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.879
we're going to get everybody engaged,
everybody involved, a lot of times
77
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:46.759
that really just ends up being kind
of like the design team and maybe the
78
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.959
general contractor when reality, the team, if you really map out the stakeholders.
79
00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.560
It's what I was just talking about. I mean it's everything from the
80
00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.720
fire marshal to the distribution, the
supply chain. You know, can we
81
00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.720
even ship those chillers on time?
You know, is this type of tile
82
00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:09.160
even available for this fancy bathroom we're
dreaming up? You know, you really
83
00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.600
have to when you talk about the
project team, I don't think you can
84
00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.279
stop at the general contractor and the
owner and the architect. I think there
85
00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:20.399
needs to be a wider group that's
brought in, from trade contractors to local
86
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:26.120
officials who supply and distribution. I
think is a huge miss and a lot
87
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.839
of those conversations we just assume,
especially today, you know, our supply
88
00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:34.600
chain challenges, in my opinion,
are not going to get better anytime soon
89
00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:46.240
and by trying to kind of pre
plan systems finishes, simple things like doors
90
00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.879
can really get you in trouble today
unless you're looking way upstream into your supply
91
00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:54.519
chain to make sure that stuff can
get delivered. Yeah, and it's crazy
92
00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.240
because we, you know, we
had these discussions a long time ago about
93
00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.360
everybody having a seat at the table, and you start to realize that that
94
00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.680
table is giganic and nobody can hear
anyone and and that is what you know,
95
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.879
when we talked to John Sevens and
saw a card. That's exactly what
96
00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.639
they echoed, is that, you
know, the right information from the right
97
00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.720
stakeholder, whoever that stakeholder is,
has to surface at the right time and
98
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:23.800
it's you know, they're doing it
with a mix of understanding the problem and
99
00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:28.120
identifying the problem and even in the
themselves saying hey, we're getting better at
100
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.519
every stage and they're at builder who's
really exactly, like you said, focused
101
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.040
on it. There the Microsoft.
You know, they're building campuses and thinking
102
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.360
forward, but even they, when
they're thinking forward, then have to take
103
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.600
a step back and say, oh
well, we have to have these processes,
104
00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.439
we have to know this information.
And even at times that's what they've
105
00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.800
said, if they've said, listen, before we've let other people make those
106
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:54.920
decisions and we can't do that anymore. We have to allow them to present
107
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:59.160
it to us so that we can
help make an educated decision. And you
108
00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.000
and I were talking about this.
A lot of a lot of this gets
109
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.319
pointed at, you know, finger
pointing. You have a designer, you
110
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.000
know on architect who puts all these
finishes and all these things in, and
111
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.160
then a general contractor who takes it
out and and it looks like it's one
112
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.279
versus the other, when really there's
this whole thing, you know, we
113
00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.360
call cost in the middle, and
then you bring it up, oh,
114
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:26.399
supply chain like this. This table
just getting really big and I didn't even
115
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.240
think about it. You said it
before. You have code compliance, right,
116
00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.720
you have fire marshals, you have
facilities, people that have to deal
117
00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:39.039
with this. This is I mean, I'm just talking myself into more disjointedness.
118
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.159
I mean, where do we go
from here? Yeah, I mean,
119
00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.200
I do think these are solvable problems. I guess I'm in a natural
120
00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:52.240
optimist and I do think technology will
help in some of this. I believe
121
00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.919
we can learn as an industry,
you know, simple things like how do
122
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:03.159
we specify product and when we write
those alternatives into our SPEC book. You
123
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.559
know, do we really accept those
alternatives? Are we actually okay with,
124
00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.960
you know, four different models of
a water heater, or did we or
125
00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:15.679
because we put something into our,
you know, our bim, is that
126
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.399
the one that we want and we
only want that? So it's if the
127
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.279
contractor, you know the plumbing contractor, shows up and says, Hey,
128
00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.200
look, we can't get that water
heater. We get a substitute. Are
129
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.159
we all approved on that? Okay, are we? Are we delegating that
130
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:31.440
decision because it was an alternate in
the Specbook, or did we really try
131
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480
to soul spect something in because that
was the that was the actual product or
132
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.120
actual finish or actual design that we
intended? And and you know, I've
133
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.919
been involved in a lot of that
kind of product level substitution request and specification
134
00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.159
and I don't think today, as
owners in particular, there's a lot of
135
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.720
education there. And what do we
actually mean when we build a speckbook?
136
00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.720
What do we actually mean when we
model something and and then we draw something
137
00:09:54.759 --> 00:10:00.000
in plans and you know, you
get into the one thing I've really learned
138
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:05.399
from this journey here at Dato is
how often those three sources of information conflict.
139
00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.720
And you know, we've always talked
about this single source of truth and
140
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:13.200
I think somewhere along our journey we
say look, we just got to agree
141
00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.000
that there is not a single source
of truth. There's multiple sources of truth
142
00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:22.919
and then we need to intelligently interpret, you know, what is intended by
143
00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.320
by those multiple sources. Which one
governs, in which case, whether it's
144
00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.080
code, you know, that's a
very real legal issue we have to deal
145
00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:37.360
with, whether it's owner preference,
whether it's supply and distribution, and understanding
146
00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.600
how those sources of truth are,
model or design or spects, owner intent
147
00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.960
fit together, I think needs a
lot more attention, especially as we deal
148
00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:52.320
with managing cost dealing with supply chain
issues and, like I said, I
149
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.919
think the kind of growing amount of
information that makes up project documentation and and,
150
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.600
you know, project conformation effectively.
You have you raised a whole bunch
151
00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.200
there that that I want to dissect
a little bit, because some of that
152
00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:05.960
you know, and you know me, I'm not a big fan of the
153
00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:11.120
single source of truth anyway, because
you know, I see data and I
154
00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.639
see those things through my eye.
So my you know, my truth is
155
00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.360
driven by my perspective. So even
though we have a single source of data,
156
00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:20.720
or now we have multiple sources of
data, which one pushes it?
157
00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.240
And and what is the truth?
And just like you said, is it?
158
00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.879
Is it my preference as an owner
that pushes that? Is it the
159
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.759
code that pushes it? And also
then, you know, then you factor
160
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.159
in time. So like all of
a sudden, when does schedule become more
161
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.120
important? Right, because because along
the way we're making decisions and we're saying,
162
00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.320
oh, it's these things, but
then it's like well, that's going
163
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.440
to push everybody back at well,
now we're not okay DEC so we change
164
00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.159
it to we don't. We don't
just like put a pull in the sandy.
165
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.200
Yeah, that's it, that's the
guiding light. Yeah, I mean
166
00:11:54.279 --> 00:12:00.000
the truth is along the life of
the project there's various constraints. There's various
167
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.360
under guard rails. Code compliance is
one of them, costs one of them.
168
00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.320
Schedule is one of them. That
it design esthetic, you know,
169
00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.159
is another one, and each of
those has kind of if you think about
170
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.000
those as a range. As we
move down the project, each of those,
171
00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:16.919
you know, you're kind of moving
down the middle. You might get
172
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.360
outside of a range of any one
of those at any point in time and
173
00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.519
you got to have a process in
place to basically check to make sure within
174
00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.480
the guard rails from those areas code, cost, schedule, you know,
175
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.440
design intent, but also be able
to make quick decisions when you know when
176
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.200
things do need to change and double
check that you're in compliance in all those
177
00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:41.679
areas. Again, I think there
are software solutions here, but trying to
178
00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.879
just hone in on one single source
of truth is is not the not the
179
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.399
reality of most projects we have to
have. You know, I think we
180
00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.320
need to leave a little bit of
fuzziness in our designs in order to make
181
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.480
sure that we can meet some of
those other constraints like cost and schedule.
182
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.559
So and I think it brings it
it brings it back to where I love
183
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.360
to go. Right. This is
this is a cultural shift in this business.
184
00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.080
Right, this is something that you
know what I think of the disjointed
185
00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.759
nature of it. It's really that
not everybody trusts one another. There's not
186
00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.600
enough trust, there's not enough cohesion
and what we do. So we are
187
00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.679
just join it right, and and
we also we feel and think that way.
188
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.679
And you know, you hear a
lot of things. I hear moving
189
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.240
towards like TVD, target value delivery
and target value design and, you know,
190
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.159
really getting everyone involved and setting up
the projects around. You know,
191
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.480
it's a process to them, but
to me it's a cultural shift. Right,
192
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.320
it's like, Hey, listen,
we the reason we don't allow fuzzy
193
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:45.000
right now is because fuzzy has caused
way too many litigations over time. It's
194
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:50.039
true. And we need, though, to know that we have the owner's
195
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.360
value in mind, that they are
pulling US forward from that rope perspective,
196
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.000
because you can't push a rope of
hill care, how good of a general
197
00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.279
contract that you are or an architect, if you got an owner that's not
198
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:07.200
listening and not playing, playing the
playing in the same trust arena, it's
199
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.480
not going to it's not going to
work. So they have to set it
200
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.320
and everybody has to jump on board
and then that can really guide US allows.
201
00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.240
You know, our rails are this
thin right now, Jake. We
202
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.039
need some we need some wide rails
here to allow for those things to happen,
203
00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.759
and I think I'm with you.
I'm an eternal optimist in that as
204
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:37.840
I've gotten to know each sector of
this built environment, I'm thoroughly impressed with
205
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.519
each one and I'm thoroughly unimpressed with
our ability to connect them all and use
206
00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.600
them to their to their full advantage, and I think it's a detriment to
207
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:54.759
the industry itself, but also to
project teams that deliver such beautiful buildings and
208
00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:01.360
Bridges and stadiums and just I'm always
is amazed and then they don't feel great
209
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.799
about it until someday down the road. Right so I think there's a possibility
210
00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.519
there. I just think it's you
know, I think the technology will make
211
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.080
it work, but I think ultimately
it's a cultural shift and you and I've
212
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.480
been watching this. I mean I
know you've been in and out of each
213
00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.720
of those spaces and feel pretty similar
about their expertise. I do. Yeah,
214
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.600
I think you know. I'll give
you an example. One of the
215
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:30.759
complaints out here, commonly from kind
of downstream contractors trying to build, is
216
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.399
the quality of design documents has decreased. Right, so everything used to be
217
00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.039
dialed into the nines. Now we
get kind of, like I said,
218
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.840
kind of fuzzy drawings. You go
and talk to the architect and engineers that
219
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.960
are creating those drawings. They say
yeah, well, number one, we're
220
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.120
not being paid to dial in everything
to the like. We're not creating construction
221
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.720
documents as an architect engineering form anymore. That that needs to go down stream
222
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.080
because the people who build have a
better, you know, better ability and
223
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.200
closer to the supply chain, closer
to the fabrication methods. So why would
224
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.840
we go through, you know,
hours and hours of trying to get a
225
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.759
hundred percent CD set out when we
know it's going to get changed anyway.
226
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.960
So we're actually kind of just from
a total constructure. We're actually not completely
227
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.960
dialing in every single detail because we
want that to go down stream. But
228
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.600
so perfect example of two very professional
groups. You have your contracting team that's
229
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.639
got to build and your architect engineering
that are both kind of optimizing but creating
230
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:33.840
a ton of friction between each other, disjointedness because they don't understand why those
231
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.960
decisions are being made on both sides. So yeah, you call that cultural,
232
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.720
call it just general mentality change,
but I don't think it's. In
233
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:47.320
my experience it's not a an issue
of lower quality people in the industry,
234
00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:49.320
I think, and it's actually gone
the other way and we have very high
235
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.879
quality people working more and more so
in the industry to day. It's a
236
00:16:53.120 --> 00:17:00.320
misalignment of you know kind of objectives
that hasn't been well communicated. So again,
237
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:06.559
I think these are solvable problems and
I think the you know, I
238
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:11.240
think owners getting involved is super exciting. That Microsoft was. That was great
239
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.119
to hear that. I think we
had a ways to go, though,
240
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.720
before we get, you know,
Johnson County Public School Department kind of thinking
241
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:25.359
that that type of level. So
we'll get there, Jaff is going to
242
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.279
take people like you to keep pushing
this forward and helping have these conversations in
243
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.920
my mind. Well, yeah,
and it's funny you say that. I
244
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.880
had the episode with John Diffenderfer and
he said exactly that. He said,
245
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.160
you know, there's this change and
shift and he's seen cm's taking over a
246
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.359
lot of what they did when it
came to construction drawings, which you know,
247
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.559
cause some of that friction and fuzziness
and and it's also caused some angst
248
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.559
inside of, let's be honest,
it's caused some exerside of architects, because
249
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.160
architects that was part of their cheese
man, and you just took their cheese.
250
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.039
And that was the whole discussion he
and I had about. Well,
251
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.519
but this is a better chunk at
cheese anyway, so I'm going to eat
252
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.799
more of this cheese and you can
see M's, you can have that and
253
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.519
I'll just go get more of that
good cheese. And it was it was
254
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.200
really about shifting and not blaming and
saying, okay, this makes way more
255
00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.119
sense, because as an architect,
what I'm paid to do is to think
256
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.920
about those things and no architect and
and is ever going to be able to
257
00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:25.200
consume all of the opportunities and things
that are available to us to build buildings
258
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:30.880
anymore. Like that's impossible, you
know, like you would spend your whole
259
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.759
life learning light fixtures and still not
be there. Like right, you can't
260
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:40.119
eat. So there's a shift to
and then there's that also that shift because
261
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:45.839
those general contractors are closer to our
trade contractors who are beginning to build in
262
00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:51.759
a way from a manufacturing perspective that
an architects not going to understand. So
263
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.480
they have to realize that their connectedness. Right, they're just joining now,
264
00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.279
but their connectedness can make each of
them far greater than any one of them
265
00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.319
can be on their own. Yeah, now I think that lighting fixture is
266
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.359
a great example. You know,
where, where's the responsibility lie on,
267
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.279
you know, researching lighting fixtures?
Who Do we want to entrust with that?
268
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.759
Is at the electrical contractor? Who
does you know, lighting every single
269
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.680
day, all day long, those
all the distribution that supply? Is it
270
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.880
the owner who has, you know, esthetic desires on how the lighting is
271
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.960
going to look? The architect WHO's
trying to, you know, lean on
272
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.000
their experience that meet the owners demand. I don't think that's just one answer.
273
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.440
I don't think there's a single answer
to that question and I don't and
274
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.079
I think unfortunately, on some jobs
we do end up with one answer.
275
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.319
You know, Oh, let's just
leave it to architect for example, versus
276
00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.920
the the potential sources of truth.
Again, I'll go back there and potential
277
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.680
sources of truth that might actually help
optimize that that lighting. So you know,
278
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.920
and this is where I think value
engineering actually brings a lot of value
279
00:19:52.960 --> 00:20:00.599
to the to the industry, when
it's done with the right participants, and
280
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.000
I think a lot of times that
is not how it gets done. Becomes
281
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:08.200
a cost cutting exercise between a GC
and and an owner. And but you
282
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.200
know, that's the opportunity, right. That's why it's one of those terms
283
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.440
you can't just use everywhere you go, because it has definitely gotten a bad
284
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.559
name. But it doesn't have to. And you're right, because if if
285
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.839
in a quick facilitated conversation, this
is where technology like, not some new,
286
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.759
brand new thing out there necessarily,
but just zoom itself, I can
287
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.880
put four of us in a room
and for for a minute, a few
288
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.240
minutes, and we can get this
actually handle like. So you know I'm
289
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.119
just shooting off the hip here,
but you have a slack channel with the
290
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:38.960
team that's on there and the lighting
comes up and it's like hey, architect,
291
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.079
what was the intent? Yeah,
Hey, hey, owner, what
292
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.400
did you want out of that?
And Hey, trade contractor what are my
293
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:51.599
options there? Everybody answers and then
we go we decide, you know,
294
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:53.839
through a system that that works and
then cool, we got us. We
295
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.599
got a shot right. And now
the question is, how do you do
296
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:03.440
that, given existing it's just giving
existing you know, some middles, giving
297
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.519
existing costs. How do you do
that in a way that everybody's happy?
298
00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:08.920
That? I think that's the challenge, because that it does. I've I
299
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.480
even I simplify at times, Jake
so, but but I like that you
300
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.720
have the the the optimism. So, before I let you go, is
301
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.319
there anything you didn't say about disjointed
or anything that's going on? You know
302
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.920
what you might send me out to
do next if you had me go talk
303
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.039
to anybody? Would there be somebody
you'd send me to go talk to?
304
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.319
I think, I think the stakeholder
growing, the stakeholder hold their list is
305
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.720
important and I think it would be
interesting for you to talk to some code
306
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:42.119
officials or billing departments? I would
love to hear that perspective. And I
307
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:49.039
believe this supply chain or distribution is
another piece that actually really impacts final delivery
308
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.559
of the project. That is,
in my mind, been kind of down
309
00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.680
a little bit of a second thought
on a lot of projects. But you
310
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.240
know, you've if you've been in
project, you know how big of an
311
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.359
impact that can have. So those
are two areas I love to hear more
312
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:10.839
conversation from. And the you've vibviously
got the a great conversation started, so
313
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.799
keep it up, please, well, I'm excited. Hopefully we'll get you
314
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.839
back in as well. Let everybody
know where they can connect with you find
315
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.720
out a more about data. Yeah, great, project Datacom is our website.
316
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.759
I'm Jake at Project Datacom and I'm
very active on Linkedin as well.
317
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.000
That's probably easy s place to connect
with me. So we'll have to hear
318
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.480
from you. If you're dealing in
a mess of disconnected, disjointed information,
319
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.960
give us a ring. I'm sure
we can help. I love it because
320
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:38.839
that is exactly what this is all
about here. It's about a conversation.
321
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.240
So all of us can continue,
just like you, to solve problems that
322
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.559
really exists. If you have any
of those problems, you reach out to
323
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.359
Jake and and the team over there. Datou and Jake, I want to
324
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.440
thank you for all the things that
you've brought to me and all the teaching
325
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.359
you brought and I want to thank
everyone for tuning into this episode of disjointed.
326
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.279
Remember to subscribe to the show on
your favorite podcast apps so you don't
327
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:06.359
miss our second full season. To
learn more about disjointed or read the show
328
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.880
notes, just stop by DISJOINING DOT
FM. This show is brought to you
329
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.799
by join, the decisionmaking platform for
the built environment. Learn more at joint
330
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.759
dot Bild.
1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:15.679
Welcome to DIS join it. Our
podcast mission is to bring a voice so
2
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:21.600
the problems facing decisionmaking in the built
environment today. Communication and processes are disjointed.
3
00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:25.480
In the world of design and construction. Work happens across tools, teams
4
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:30.000
and timelines, making it hard to
keep everyone connected. It's a constant challenge
5
00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:35.640
to reduce friction and meet project expectations. We believe there's a better way.
6
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:42.399
Well, welcome to another episode.
I'm excited for today. My Pal in
7
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:47.039
trouble over here, the one I
like to travel around and get in trouble
8
00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:52.200
with, mainly on ski slopes,
Jake Olson. How you doing great,
9
00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:55.399
Jeff, good to see you.
It's great to see you. Jake and
10
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.240
I usually meet up at least once
or twice a year on a ski slope,
11
00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.000
so I just got to give him
a little bit of junk although we
12
00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:03.159
haven't seen each other this year.
JAKES, we're going to have to get
13
00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.719
that on the list. We're do
we will all right. Well, Hey,
14
00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.359
jake, introduce yourself to everybody who
doesn't already know you. Give a
15
00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:14.079
little bit of background on on you
and what you're up to these days.
16
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:18.079
Cool. Yeah, thank you.
My name is Jack Olson. Been in
17
00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.599
the construction industry for about twenty years
now. Started as a structural engineer and
18
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.599
then got more into the building products
and probably the last ten years or so
19
00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:33.599
been really focused on software. So
I'm currently CEO of a company called Dato.
20
00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.640
We are a effectively and intelligent document
management platform for contractors, primarily trade
21
00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:46.359
contractors. Subcontractors, is where most
of our businesses so it's been great getting
22
00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.560
really close to a lot of projects, really close to a lot of people
23
00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.040
in the industry and getting down deep
into workflows and and how things are built
24
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.959
today. And specifically we see a
lot of what's changing today from when I
25
00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.439
started the industry anyway. Well,
and you know you underplay that a little
26
00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.799
bit, I haven't known you in
that ten years that you've been involved in
27
00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.360
it and it's been a fantastic run. Your wealth of information. You know,
28
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:15.080
Dato was built out of a lot
of the learning that you did over
29
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:19.599
time. So when we talk about
disjointed and when I say disjointed this this
30
00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.240
brings out a lot of emotion from
you. So when you here disjointed,
31
00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.960
what does it mean to you?
Yeah, we had a really unique experience
32
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.879
when we started Dado of being able
to kind of push pause for a few
33
00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.840
months before we started writing code,
before we started building a product, and
34
00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:42.719
we spend about four months just interviewing
people in the industry. Really fantastic process.
35
00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:46.639
I thought I knew everything, of
course, but there's there's something to
36
00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.280
be said about just having an open
book, a not an agenda, but
37
00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.319
really just opened in the questions about
problems in the industry and we kind of
38
00:02:53.319 --> 00:03:00.120
mapped out all the stakeholders, so
everything from apprentices to building officials to know,
39
00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.000
we talked to the fire marshals to
code and design and then all through
40
00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:08.120
the construction phase, you know,
from architects, engineers, contractors, all
41
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:14.120
the different stakeholders in the contractor and
I think one of the big so,
42
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.560
you know, we were out to
find problems or to really understand the challenges
43
00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:22.199
of what's going on, and I
think what became really apparent to us was
44
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.719
we have a lot of new technology
coming into construction, a lot of fanfare
45
00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:32.560
around this. It's today easier than
ever to create digital information around a project
46
00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.240
that might be design changes and might
be updated. A model might be,
47
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:43.000
you know, pump proving some middles. It's easier than ever to create information
48
00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.800
it's harder than ever to keep track
of it and to keep that entire project
49
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.439
team up to date. And this
kind of we started calling it the digital
50
00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:55.560
divide. But the gap between kind
of the people who are in the know
51
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:00.919
of the information and everybody else,
I think, is increasing and there's gaps
52
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.680
between stakeholders. There's gaps within companies. For example, a project manager might
53
00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:09.759
be getting updates by email, somebody
in the field isn't being kept up to
54
00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.960
date in the same way. So
that, for me, is what disjointed
55
00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.319
means. It is this huge kind
of information gap in construction and, as
56
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.680
I said, it's getting worse,
not better, as things more and more
57
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.279
get digitized. It's funny you say
that, because you'd always think it would
58
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.800
go the opposite way, but I
think in digitization it actually usually has a
59
00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.600
did and see to get a little
bit more chaotic before it gets a little
60
00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:38.720
bit more predictable. So it's a
little chaos before order. But you talked
61
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.240
about it. We've, you know, you've listened into the season and we've
62
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.639
talked a lot about it and immediately
when we started talking about it, you
63
00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:49.759
you went into hey, wait,
when you say you've interviewed the team defined
64
00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:54.199
the team. I mean talk a
little bit more about that. Yeah,
65
00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:59.279
I've enjoyed the season so far.
So congratulations on launching a great podcast,
66
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.759
some great interviews, I think.
You know what I think that comes out
67
00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.959
to me, which I believe in
as one of the solutions to our kind
68
00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.480
of disjointedness, is actually better educated
owners, people who actually get involved in
69
00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.160
the construction process. But I think
from what I've seen so far there's still
70
00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.800
some shortcomings to this. And you
know, I worked on the apple campus
71
00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:24.759
here and they were heavily involved in
construction. And you can you can pick
72
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.519
your list of other big tech companies
that have built and a lot of them
73
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.959
have hired significant construction teams into their
business to build these campuses and data centers
74
00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.879
and what what have you. I
think what's gets messed is is when we
75
00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.199
try to say, Hey, we're
going to bring the whole team in early,
76
00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.879
we're going to get everybody engaged,
everybody involved, a lot of times
77
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:46.759
that really just ends up being kind
of like the design team and maybe the
78
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.959
general contractor when reality, the team, if you really map out the stakeholders.
79
00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.560
It's what I was just talking about. I mean it's everything from the
80
00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.720
fire marshal to the distribution, the
supply chain. You know, can we
81
00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.720
even ship those chillers on time?
You know, is this type of tile
82
00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:09.160
even available for this fancy bathroom we're
dreaming up? You know, you really
83
00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.600
have to when you talk about the
project team, I don't think you can
84
00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.279
stop at the general contractor and the
owner and the architect. I think there
85
00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:20.399
needs to be a wider group that's
brought in, from trade contractors to local
86
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:26.120
officials who supply and distribution. I
think is a huge miss and a lot
87
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.839
of those conversations we just assume,
especially today, you know, our supply
88
00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:34.600
chain challenges, in my opinion,
are not going to get better anytime soon
89
00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:46.240
and by trying to kind of pre
plan systems finishes, simple things like doors
90
00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.879
can really get you in trouble today
unless you're looking way upstream into your supply
91
00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:54.519
chain to make sure that stuff can
get delivered. Yeah, and it's crazy
92
00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.240
because we, you know, we
had these discussions a long time ago about
93
00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.360
everybody having a seat at the table, and you start to realize that that
94
00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.680
table is giganic and nobody can hear
anyone and and that is what you know,
95
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.879
when we talked to John Sevens and
saw a card. That's exactly what
96
00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.639
they echoed, is that, you
know, the right information from the right
97
00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.720
stakeholder, whoever that stakeholder is,
has to surface at the right time and
98
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:23.800
it's you know, they're doing it
with a mix of understanding the problem and
99
00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:28.120
identifying the problem and even in the
themselves saying hey, we're getting better at
100
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.519
every stage and they're at builder who's
really exactly, like you said, focused
101
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.040
on it. There the Microsoft.
You know, they're building campuses and thinking
102
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.360
forward, but even they, when
they're thinking forward, then have to take
103
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.600
a step back and say, oh
well, we have to have these processes,
104
00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.439
we have to know this information.
And even at times that's what they've
105
00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.800
said, if they've said, listen, before we've let other people make those
106
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:54.920
decisions and we can't do that anymore. We have to allow them to present
107
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:59.160
it to us so that we can
help make an educated decision. And you
108
00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.000
and I were talking about this.
A lot of a lot of this gets
109
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.319
pointed at, you know, finger
pointing. You have a designer, you
110
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.000
know on architect who puts all these
finishes and all these things in, and
111
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.160
then a general contractor who takes it
out and and it looks like it's one
112
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.279
versus the other, when really there's
this whole thing, you know, we
113
00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.360
call cost in the middle, and
then you bring it up, oh,
114
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:26.399
supply chain like this. This table
just getting really big and I didn't even
115
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.240
think about it. You said it
before. You have code compliance, right,
116
00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.720
you have fire marshals, you have
facilities, people that have to deal
117
00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:39.039
with this. This is I mean, I'm just talking myself into more disjointedness.
118
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.159
I mean, where do we go
from here? Yeah, I mean,
119
00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.200
I do think these are solvable problems. I guess I'm in a natural
120
00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:52.240
optimist and I do think technology will
help in some of this. I believe
121
00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.919
we can learn as an industry,
you know, simple things like how do
122
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:03.159
we specify product and when we write
those alternatives into our SPEC book. You
123
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.559
know, do we really accept those
alternatives? Are we actually okay with,
124
00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.960
you know, four different models of
a water heater, or did we or
125
00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:15.679
because we put something into our,
you know, our bim, is that
126
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.399
the one that we want and we
only want that? So it's if the
127
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.279
contractor, you know the plumbing contractor, shows up and says, Hey,
128
00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.200
look, we can't get that water
heater. We get a substitute. Are
129
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.159
we all approved on that? Okay, are we? Are we delegating that
130
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:31.440
decision because it was an alternate in
the Specbook, or did we really try
131
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480
to soul spect something in because that
was the that was the actual product or
132
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.120
actual finish or actual design that we
intended? And and you know, I've
133
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.919
been involved in a lot of that
kind of product level substitution request and specification
134
00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.159
and I don't think today, as
owners in particular, there's a lot of
135
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.720
education there. And what do we
actually mean when we build a speckbook?
136
00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.720
What do we actually mean when we
model something and and then we draw something
137
00:09:54.759 --> 00:10:00.000
in plans and you know, you
get into the one thing I've really learned
138
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:05.399
from this journey here at Dato is
how often those three sources of information conflict.
139
00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.720
And you know, we've always talked
about this single source of truth and
140
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:13.200
I think somewhere along our journey we
say look, we just got to agree
141
00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.000
that there is not a single source
of truth. There's multiple sources of truth
142
00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:22.919
and then we need to intelligently interpret, you know, what is intended by
143
00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.320
by those multiple sources. Which one
governs, in which case, whether it's
144
00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.080
code, you know, that's a
very real legal issue we have to deal
145
00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:37.360
with, whether it's owner preference,
whether it's supply and distribution, and understanding
146
00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.600
how those sources of truth are,
model or design or spects, owner intent
147
00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.960
fit together, I think needs a
lot more attention, especially as we deal
148
00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:52.320
with managing cost dealing with supply chain
issues and, like I said, I
149
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.919
think the kind of growing amount of
information that makes up project documentation and and,
150
00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.600
you know, project conformation effectively.
You have you raised a whole bunch
151
00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.200
there that that I want to dissect
a little bit, because some of that
152
00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:05.960
you know, and you know me, I'm not a big fan of the
153
00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:11.120
single source of truth anyway, because
you know, I see data and I
154
00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.639
see those things through my eye.
So my you know, my truth is
155
00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.360
driven by my perspective. So even
though we have a single source of data,
156
00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:20.720
or now we have multiple sources of
data, which one pushes it?
157
00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.240
And and what is the truth?
And just like you said, is it?
158
00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.879
Is it my preference as an owner
that pushes that? Is it the
159
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.759
code that pushes it? And also
then, you know, then you factor
160
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.159
in time. So like all of
a sudden, when does schedule become more
161
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.120
important? Right, because because along
the way we're making decisions and we're saying,
162
00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.320
oh, it's these things, but
then it's like well, that's going
163
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.440
to push everybody back at well,
now we're not okay DEC so we change
164
00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.159
it to we don't. We don't
just like put a pull in the sandy.
165
00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.200
Yeah, that's it, that's the
guiding light. Yeah, I mean
166
00:11:54.279 --> 00:12:00.000
the truth is along the life of
the project there's various constraints. There's various
167
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.360
under guard rails. Code compliance is
one of them, costs one of them.
168
00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.320
Schedule is one of them. That
it design esthetic, you know,
169
00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.159
is another one, and each of
those has kind of if you think about
170
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.000
those as a range. As we
move down the project, each of those,
171
00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:16.919
you know, you're kind of moving
down the middle. You might get
172
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.360
outside of a range of any one
of those at any point in time and
173
00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.519
you got to have a process in
place to basically check to make sure within
174
00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.480
the guard rails from those areas code, cost, schedule, you know,
175
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.440
design intent, but also be able
to make quick decisions when you know when
176
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.200
things do need to change and double
check that you're in compliance in all those
177
00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:41.679
areas. Again, I think there
are software solutions here, but trying to
178
00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:46.879
just hone in on one single source
of truth is is not the not the
179
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.399
reality of most projects we have to
have. You know, I think we
180
00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.320
need to leave a little bit of
fuzziness in our designs in order to make
181
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.480
sure that we can meet some of
those other constraints like cost and schedule.
182
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.559
So and I think it brings it
it brings it back to where I love
183
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.360
to go. Right. This is
this is a cultural shift in this business.
184
00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.080
Right, this is something that you
know what I think of the disjointed
185
00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.759
nature of it. It's really that
not everybody trusts one another. There's not
186
00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.600
enough trust, there's not enough cohesion
and what we do. So we are
187
00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.679
just join it right, and and
we also we feel and think that way.
188
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.679
And you know, you hear a
lot of things. I hear moving
189
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.240
towards like TVD, target value delivery
and target value design and, you know,
190
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.159
really getting everyone involved and setting up
the projects around. You know,
191
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.480
it's a process to them, but
to me it's a cultural shift. Right,
192
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.320
it's like, Hey, listen,
we the reason we don't allow fuzzy
193
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:45.000
right now is because fuzzy has caused
way too many litigations over time. It's
194
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:50.039
true. And we need, though, to know that we have the owner's
195
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.360
value in mind, that they are
pulling US forward from that rope perspective,
196
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.000
because you can't push a rope of
hill care, how good of a general
197
00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.279
contract that you are or an architect, if you got an owner that's not
198
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:07.200
listening and not playing, playing the
playing in the same trust arena, it's
199
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.480
not going to it's not going to
work. So they have to set it
200
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.320
and everybody has to jump on board
and then that can really guide US allows.
201
00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.240
You know, our rails are this
thin right now, Jake. We
202
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.039
need some we need some wide rails
here to allow for those things to happen,
203
00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.759
and I think I'm with you.
I'm an eternal optimist in that as
204
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:37.840
I've gotten to know each sector of
this built environment, I'm thoroughly impressed with
205
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.519
each one and I'm thoroughly unimpressed with
our ability to connect them all and use
206
00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.600
them to their to their full advantage, and I think it's a detriment to
207
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:54.759
the industry itself, but also to
project teams that deliver such beautiful buildings and
208
00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:01.360
Bridges and stadiums and just I'm always
is amazed and then they don't feel great
209
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.799
about it until someday down the road. Right so I think there's a possibility
210
00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.519
there. I just think it's you
know, I think the technology will make
211
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.080
it work, but I think ultimately
it's a cultural shift and you and I've
212
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.480
been watching this. I mean I
know you've been in and out of each
213
00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.720
of those spaces and feel pretty similar
about their expertise. I do. Yeah,
214
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.600
I think you know. I'll give
you an example. One of the
215
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:30.759
complaints out here, commonly from kind
of downstream contractors trying to build, is
216
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.399
the quality of design documents has decreased. Right, so everything used to be
217
00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.039
dialed into the nines. Now we
get kind of, like I said,
218
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.840
kind of fuzzy drawings. You go
and talk to the architect and engineers that
219
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.960
are creating those drawings. They say
yeah, well, number one, we're
220
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.120
not being paid to dial in everything
to the like. We're not creating construction
221
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.720
documents as an architect engineering form anymore. That that needs to go down stream
222
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.080
because the people who build have a
better, you know, better ability and
223
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.200
closer to the supply chain, closer
to the fabrication methods. So why would
224
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.840
we go through, you know,
hours and hours of trying to get a
225
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.759
hundred percent CD set out when we
know it's going to get changed anyway.
226
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.960
So we're actually kind of just from
a total constructure. We're actually not completely
227
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.960
dialing in every single detail because we
want that to go down stream. But
228
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.600
so perfect example of two very professional
groups. You have your contracting team that's
229
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.639
got to build and your architect engineering
that are both kind of optimizing but creating
230
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:33.840
a ton of friction between each other, disjointedness because they don't understand why those
231
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.960
decisions are being made on both sides. So yeah, you call that cultural,
232
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.720
call it just general mentality change,
but I don't think it's. In
233
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:47.320
my experience it's not a an issue
of lower quality people in the industry,
234
00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:49.320
I think, and it's actually gone
the other way and we have very high
235
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.879
quality people working more and more so
in the industry to day. It's a
236
00:16:53.120 --> 00:17:00.320
misalignment of you know kind of objectives
that hasn't been well communicated. So again,
237
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:06.559
I think these are solvable problems and
I think the you know, I
238
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:11.240
think owners getting involved is super exciting. That Microsoft was. That was great
239
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.119
to hear that. I think we
had a ways to go, though,
240
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.720
before we get, you know,
Johnson County Public School Department kind of thinking
241
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:25.359
that that type of level. So
we'll get there, Jaff is going to
242
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.279
take people like you to keep pushing
this forward and helping have these conversations in
243
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.920
my mind. Well, yeah,
and it's funny you say that. I
244
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.880
had the episode with John Diffenderfer and
he said exactly that. He said,
245
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.160
you know, there's this change and
shift and he's seen cm's taking over a
246
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.359
lot of what they did when it
came to construction drawings, which you know,
247
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.559
cause some of that friction and fuzziness
and and it's also caused some angst
248
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.559
inside of, let's be honest,
it's caused some exerside of architects, because
249
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.160
architects that was part of their cheese
man, and you just took their cheese.
250
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.039
And that was the whole discussion he
and I had about. Well,
251
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.519
but this is a better chunk at
cheese anyway, so I'm going to eat
252
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.799
more of this cheese and you can
see M's, you can have that and
253
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.519
I'll just go get more of that
good cheese. And it was it was
254
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.200
really about shifting and not blaming and
saying, okay, this makes way more
255
00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.119
sense, because as an architect,
what I'm paid to do is to think
256
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.920
about those things and no architect and
and is ever going to be able to
257
00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:25.200
consume all of the opportunities and things
that are available to us to build buildings
258
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:30.880
anymore. Like that's impossible, you
know, like you would spend your whole
259
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.759
life learning light fixtures and still not
be there. Like right, you can't
260
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:40.119
eat. So there's a shift to
and then there's that also that shift because
261
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:45.839
those general contractors are closer to our
trade contractors who are beginning to build in
262
00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:51.759
a way from a manufacturing perspective that
an architects not going to understand. So
263
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.480
they have to realize that their connectedness. Right, they're just joining now,
264
00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.279
but their connectedness can make each of
them far greater than any one of them
265
00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.319
can be on their own. Yeah, now I think that lighting fixture is
266
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.359
a great example. You know,
where, where's the responsibility lie on,
267
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.279
you know, researching lighting fixtures?
Who Do we want to entrust with that?
268
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.759
Is at the electrical contractor? Who
does you know, lighting every single
269
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.680
day, all day long, those
all the distribution that supply? Is it
270
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.880
the owner who has, you know, esthetic desires on how the lighting is
271
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.960
going to look? The architect WHO's
trying to, you know, lean on
272
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.000
their experience that meet the owners demand. I don't think that's just one answer.
273
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.440
I don't think there's a single answer
to that question and I don't and
274
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.079
I think unfortunately, on some jobs
we do end up with one answer.
275
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.319
You know, Oh, let's just
leave it to architect for example, versus
276
00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.920
the the potential sources of truth.
Again, I'll go back there and potential
277
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.680
sources of truth that might actually help
optimize that that lighting. So you know,
278
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.920
and this is where I think value
engineering actually brings a lot of value
279
00:19:52.960 --> 00:20:00.599
to the to the industry, when
it's done with the right participants, and
280
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.000
I think a lot of times that
is not how it gets done. Becomes
281
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:08.200
a cost cutting exercise between a GC
and and an owner. And but you
282
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.200
know, that's the opportunity, right. That's why it's one of those terms
283
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.440
you can't just use everywhere you go, because it has definitely gotten a bad
284
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.559
name. But it doesn't have to. And you're right, because if if
285
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.839
in a quick facilitated conversation, this
is where technology like, not some new,
286
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.759
brand new thing out there necessarily,
but just zoom itself, I can
287
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.880
put four of us in a room
and for for a minute, a few
288
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.240
minutes, and we can get this
actually handle like. So you know I'm
289
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.119
just shooting off the hip here,
but you have a slack channel with the
290
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:38.960
team that's on there and the lighting
comes up and it's like hey, architect,
291
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.079
what was the intent? Yeah,
Hey, hey, owner, what
292
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.400
did you want out of that?
And Hey, trade contractor what are my
293
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:51.599
options there? Everybody answers and then
we go we decide, you know,
294
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:53.839
through a system that that works and
then cool, we got us. We
295
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.599
got a shot right. And now
the question is, how do you do
296
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:03.440
that, given existing it's just giving
existing you know, some middles, giving
297
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.519
existing costs. How do you do
that in a way that everybody's happy?
298
00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:08.920
That? I think that's the challenge, because that it does. I've I
299
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.480
even I simplify at times, Jake
so, but but I like that you
300
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.720
have the the the optimism. So, before I let you go, is
301
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.319
there anything you didn't say about disjointed
or anything that's going on? You know
302
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.920
what you might send me out to
do next if you had me go talk
303
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.039
to anybody? Would there be somebody
you'd send me to go talk to?
304
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.319
I think, I think the stakeholder
growing, the stakeholder hold their list is
305
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.720
important and I think it would be
interesting for you to talk to some code
306
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:42.119
officials or billing departments? I would
love to hear that perspective. And I
307
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:49.039
believe this supply chain or distribution is
another piece that actually really impacts final delivery
308
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.559
of the project. That is,
in my mind, been kind of down
309
00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.680
a little bit of a second thought
on a lot of projects. But you
310
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.240
know, you've if you've been in
project, you know how big of an
311
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.359
impact that can have. So those
are two areas I love to hear more
312
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:10.839
conversation from. And the you've vibviously
got the a great conversation started, so
313
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.799
keep it up, please, well, I'm excited. Hopefully we'll get you
314
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.839
back in as well. Let everybody
know where they can connect with you find
315
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:21.720
out a more about data. Yeah, great, project Datacom is our website.
316
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.759
I'm Jake at Project Datacom and I'm
very active on Linkedin as well.
317
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.000
That's probably easy s place to connect
with me. So we'll have to hear
318
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.480
from you. If you're dealing in
a mess of disconnected, disjointed information,
319
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.960
give us a ring. I'm sure
we can help. I love it because
320
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:38.839
that is exactly what this is all
about here. It's about a conversation.
321
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.240
So all of us can continue,
just like you, to solve problems that
322
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.559
really exists. If you have any
of those problems, you reach out to
323
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.359
Jake and and the team over there. Datou and Jake, I want to
324
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.440
thank you for all the things that
you've brought to me and all the teaching
325
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.359
you brought and I want to thank
everyone for tuning into this episode of disjointed.
326
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.279
Remember to subscribe to the show on
your favorite podcast apps so you don't
327
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:06.359
miss our second full season. To
learn more about disjointed or read the show
328
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.880
notes, just stop by DISJOINING DOT
FM. This show is brought to you
329
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.799
by join, the decisionmaking platform for
the built environment. Learn more at joint
330
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.759
dot Bild.
