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Welcome to the Group Answers Podcast.
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I'm your host, Brian Daniel.
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This is the weekly show designed specifically for pastors, disciple makers, group pastors, and small group leaders.
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Truly, we are created to help anyone with bottom line responsibilities for discipleship.
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Our goal is simple to resource, train, and encourage you in the vital work of discipleship.
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This is the Group Answers Podcast.
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Let's do it.
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Welcome back to the Group Answers Show, and I am again, and as always, Brian Daniel here with you.
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And today we have with us Replicate Ministries CEO, Vic Green.
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Vic, this is your first time on the show, even though your co-writer uh to the book that we're going to talk about in a minute is a frequent guest, Robbie Galloty.
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We need to get on him to get back.
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But Vic, welcome.
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Welcome to the Group Answers family.
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Hey, thanks so much, Brian.
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Excited to be here and excited to I'll do my best to carry as much of the Robbie energy as I can.
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And so uh we're a little different in stature, a little different in personality, but hey, we're we're we're gonna bring the same disciple making passion.
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So are we all?
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Um what Vic is referencing is our Robbie Galladi is a monster of a man.
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I would say he's probably standing at about six foot six, and and I wouldn't describe him as lethe either.
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I think that's the right word.
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But uh a little bit about replicate ministries.
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Replicate's been around since 2008, I think you said.
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That's right.
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And um, you know, Vic, you can tell us a little bit about the mission and vision there.
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But um I think it's I think it is really cool to say that replicate ministries has served 4,000 churches in the 17 years since it's been in existence.
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Yeah, it's been a wild ride.
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It was started in 08 by Robbie.
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Um, and yeah, that's been 4,000 churches of training.
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So that's been relationally investing and leaders in churches all across the country.
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Um, our passion is helping churches activate their unique disciple-making movement.
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And so getting back to leading the movement that we see in acts, uh, but uniquely applying those principles for churches.
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And so we get to walk alongside churches and help them with their disciple-making culture, with their vision and strategy.
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And so every week I'm usually flying around and with some different leader, and it's a it's just a gift.
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So it's been a lot of fun to be a part of, and um, it's cool to see what's happening across the U.S.
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as it comes to disciple making.
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Some really great words there.
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Discipleship culture, disciple making culture, rather vision and strategy.
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That's what replicate does.
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Funny, you should mention movement, because I want to start there.
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Uh, the book that you co-wrote with Pastor Robbie, Movement Ready Church, is now available anywhere that you buy books.
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Um, tell us the backstory there, Vic.
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I think that's a good place for us to start.
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Works what circumstances prompted you and Robbie to write this book?
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Yeah, we so I think it was 2020 roughly, and so we at Replicate had been around at that point for 12 years.
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Uh, Robbie had been at Long Hollow for five years, and we just asked the simple question, it's actually the start of the book is why isn't it working?
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And we were feeling that we had kind of toolkit 1.0 at replicate, and it was working for a lot of churches.
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There were some good things happening.
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We're always talking about multiplication and how do you get people making disciples out where they live, work, and play.
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We were seeing that in a lot of places, but then there were some places that it wasn't.
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Some churches it just wouldn't take off.
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And where I think that hit even more hard, uh more difficult for us was that also was true at our church at Long Hollow.
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And in 2020.
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In 2020.
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And so Robbie at this point had started replicate, had been at two previous churches, disciple making had flourished, kind of comes to Long Hollow with a kind of uh a playbook that's just like a silver bullet, he would come back and say, now he's like, I got the strategy, we're gonna run this play, and it's gonna work until it didn't.
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And what happened was the church bought in for about a year and a half to our new disciple making plan.
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If you're familiar in the group space with us, we do discipleship groups alongside of small groups or Sunday school structure.
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We started to run that playbook, and it went good for about 18 months until it didn't.
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And we went from we were 8,000 as a church.
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Um, and after five years in, the tenants had dropped down to 4,000.
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And Robbie would share, there he's burning out, the the staff's at a difficult spot, um, everything's just not going like we thought.
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And we started to ask, like, what why isn't it working?
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And then the flip side of that is what must be true for it to work.
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And that really kind of prompted both the journey that we would go on at Long Hollow personally, and then what we discovered as we started to work with churches and began to build Toolkit 2.0.
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We began to identify, hey, what must be true, the essential elements that help disciple making movements happen in churches.
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And so that's kind of what prompted, that was at least the problem that prompted the book.
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I want to pick on the what wasn't working real just real quick before we move on.
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Um, I think anybody listening out there can relate to that.
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And um, he or she, they would have their own story.
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But I think all those stories are a little nuanced.
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There's probably some details that are different.
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What do you remember about that era when you got together with Robbie and the staff?
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Did you replicate, not on staff at Long Hollow, but those two those two entities work real close together.
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What do you remember about the conversation about what's not working?
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What were the indicators of that?
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Yeah, now we can say it a lot clearer than we could in front of the whiteboard and in the room at the time.
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But now, as we look, what we were feeling, and it actually we were feeling all three.
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And you could look and across our network, churches would indicate statements that would kind of fall into one of these three categories.
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We would feel programmed out, we would be stalling out, or we'd be burnt out.
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And those three things, I we were feeling programmed out.
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Like that is that was this idea of we had programs and we were putting trust in certain programs, and it wasn't working like we thought.
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We were stalling out in that we had some language, some organizational clarity, and it was working a little bit, but man, it was not resonating with our people.
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Our staff continued to feel confused, we continued to feel stuck, our systems weren't working like we thought.
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And then lastly, we felt uh, and I think this is the one that we really lean into in the book, and I would encourage for many pastors that they feel burnt out.
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And that was that was really Robbie's story specifically.
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Of he just said, Man, I was burnt out.
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He would go onto the porch and spend hours in silence and prayer, and really it just started as like, God, can you fix my church?
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Can you help me with these problems and can you solve these things?
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What it became was this really personal renewal season for him, where the Holy Spirit just began to show that you're the problem, Robbie.
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And he began to go on a journey personally that he would bring our team into.
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And as we began to practice silence and solitude, as we began to practice praying for God to move, uh, not just praying to bless our plans, but man, being a praying church, we began to see a renewal that actually would spark, we would experience at Long Hollow a revival in 2020, 2021.
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And we'd see, I think it's around 1,600 baptisms in an eight-month span.
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Um, but all of that kind of started from just that burnout got to a place where we were just saying, we can't keep going like this.
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Something has to change.
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Yeah.
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I was just jotting down, I think those symptoms would be fatigue, lack of resonance, there's a disconnect somewhere, and the burned out, out of solutions, it seems like the programmed out and then the burned out would be like out of solutions, the the nothing's working where it feels like the wheels are just spinning and you're not going anywhere.
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And for those of you not familiar with the story that Vic just overviewed, you can Google it.
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Long haul of revival, and there's all kinds of articles and things out there for that.
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It's it's really remarkable and just uh one of the better stories of the last season, I think, of ministry leadership.
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So, Vic, um, the book Movement Ready Church, it's grounded in the disciple-making practices of Jesus' ministry and the early church in Acts, which would surprise no one.
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Um, this begs the question, and I want to get your answer to this.
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So, what is the corrective that you guys are proposing?
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I mean, there's no one out there that's gonna say, well, our discipleship is grounded not in Jesus and not in the New Testament.
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So, what's different uh in movement ready church?
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What what's the big reveal?
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Yeah, I think so.
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What this is, is it's a holistic approach of the conditions that need to be true in the church in its simplest expression.
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And so I say that in that we're looking what has to be true in the hearts of the leader.
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We're looking at what has to be true in the culture, what has to be true in the systems and the organization of the church, the vision and the strategy.
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And so we're looking holistically at it, but we're pulling the principles from the book of Acts and the Gospels there.
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And so everything's kind of coming back to man, this is this is the way that Jesus started and how he led a movement.
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This is how that movement then spread across, obviously to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then the earth.
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Let's bring those principles in a way that how do we apply them to kind of set uh set the set up, you know, that's the idea of like becoming ready for that movement in our church.
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And so the the three things that you look for, the first is spiritual renewal.
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And so it's a spiritual renewal.
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What that is, is that is the desperation in me, is the desperation in leadership.
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Then the second thing a church must have is they have to have a disciple-making culture.
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And a disciple-making culture is a dedication to the few.
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And so it is ultimately what shapes the movement.
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It's the how we grow our church, what success looks like.
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And then lastly, organizational clarity is the third element.
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It's what spreads the movement.
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It is ultimately the words and the systems that we put in place that begin to take what is in the hearts of our us as leaders and give it to our people.
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And so it's a holistic approach grounded in scripture that really helps churches start with a clear assessment of where we're today and what does our church need.
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And I think the beauty of it is churches' leaders as they start, it's just it's simple enough that you can look and say, ah, I've been sensing this, I've been feeling this.
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This is what we've been missing.
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This is what we need more of.
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And it helps begin to start, okay, where do we begin?
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So 4,000 churches, you know, in you know, basically a decade and a half, you've you've made some conclusions.
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You've been you've been and out of a few churches.
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Let me ask you this on those things.
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So spiritual renewal, um, disciple making culture, and organizational clarity, where where do you find most churches uh struggle in that triad?
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Yeah, it's so interesting.
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Um, I think like we just did it at our annual conference, and I believe that you know you have more people that go in organizational clarity or disciple-making culture.
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Um, I do think sometimes speaking to burnout and spiritual renewal is a little bit more of a vulnerable thing to do.
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So I think people are less likely to share that up first.
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And so I think when we've done some wide, like I do think disciple making and organizational clarity both kind of rise more to the top.
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They feel more programmed out or they feel more stalled out.
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Um, and so, but I would I would just say what I find is it's usually something that people connect multiple things to it.
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I had one person say it, we feel like we're like a pinball between those three, and we just keep pinging burnout, programmed out, stalled out, and we try to fix one of those without addressing the other or without looking at the full picture, and we just kind of like another person said it's like we're like a dog chasing our tail.
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And as quick as we advance in one, it then you know we lose ground in the other.
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And so I think that's the power of seeing it and the need for all three together.
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In in some ways, um, the ideas of community and multiplied on north and south poles of this conversation.
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I don't know if that's exactly true or not, but those are the two elements that tend to come up and and and balancing both of those things.
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So I love the distinctive you make between an understanding of discipleship or like the math of it, uh, that can that can get programmed out, I would think.
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You know, you just keep doing the mechanics of discipleship at the detriment of something else, opposed to creating like you what you call the disciple-making culture or creating conditions uh for it to take root and multiply.
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So with that in mind, talk us through that distinction, keeping in mind this idea of community and and and multiplication.
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Yeah, I think it's so easy for churches sometimes to just continue to do what they've seen or what they're used to.
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And I think sometimes in the local church, like what we have seen is there has not been as the disciple making has not been strong largely in the North American church, that we feel like we're not seeing multiplication happening.
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You know, I would say that disciple making has really been a someplay, someday lifestyle, that it's something that happens by the staff on typically Sundays and Wednesdays.
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But what God, what Jesus shows us and what the movement shows us, is that disciple making is an all-play, everyday movement.
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It's for every person in the church, every day of the week.
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And I think what often happens is we grow up in one environment of seeing church done one way, and we just continue to do those things.
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But when you actually step back and you start to assess, man, like, is this actually making disciples?
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And if not, what are some of the things that we need to change to begin to get there?
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And the number one thing is not to add another program, is to begin to assess that culture and to say, man, what is our culture uh at the church?
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Is it developing disciples?
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Is it multiplying disciples?
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One of the things that we often see to what you're saying, community of multiplication, is it's almost like two operating systems in the church.
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You can actually like think about it, like there's one operating system that's like, hey, let's get everybody in the family, let's get them engaged in what we're doing.
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And then the other operating system is multiplication.
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It's looking and saying, man, how do we get them on mission?
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And the truth is a lot of times we can make those competing, but they're meant to go together.
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We were never called to just be the family of God, nor were we called just to be on mission for God.
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We were called to be a family that's on mission.
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And I think understanding that community and multiplication both have a place, we just have to know how do those two work together in a way that it calls people into the family of God, but then sends them out to make disciples where they live, work, and play.
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And you can actually see too Acts 2, 42 through 47, if you look through that lens, there's a family that is on mission.
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There's a gathered expression, a scattered expression.
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There's an inward impact, there's an external impact.
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And so seeing both of those together and how to align all of your systems, your programs, your vision to emphasize both community and multiplication, family and mission is key if we're going to see a movement like we saw with Jesus in Acts.
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How has this at times meant that churches have to stop doing things?
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Vic seems like to me that, you know, there are good things that are that work to the detriment of this movement that we're talking about.
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And I'm sure when you're in a church, a lot and Vic, you may very well see this real quick, you know, like in the first 30 minutes that you've sat down with leadership, is like, oh man, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to really make some hard decisions here.
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Is that something you run into quite a bit?
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Absolutely.
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I mean, I think I I I say this a little tongue-in-cheek, like I I no longer like listen and care so much if you want to see disciple making in your church.
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Like, and I say that as every pastor that I talk to, if we're having a conversation, there's some level of like, we want this.
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My question is, what are you willing to give up for it?
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Because what is true is like we can't continue to hold to everything that we have now and doing church the same way that we have, and just be like, we'll just add on disciple making.
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Like disciple making was never meant to be a ministry of the church, uh, a ministry in the church.
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It is the ministry of the church.
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It is what we are called to do.
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And so I think so much of when we're leading disciple making is we need to we need to look and say, what are we willing to give up for it?
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And because at the end of the day, our staff, our people, we don't have more time and energy and budget like to just be like, oh, let's just double what we're doing.
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There has to be something that changes in how we're operating today to make the capacity for everyone to be able to see multiplication happen.
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So you've referenced movement a few times now, and uh the title of the book that you and Robbie wrote is Movement Ready Church.
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And it's a it's just that.
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We're talking about a movement.
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So um, you know, what is the advice?
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Because it's kind of like a in some ways making a viral video.
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Hey, let's go make a viral video.
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Yeah, you don't know that's if it's gonna be viral or not.
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Movement is real similar to that.
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Let's just go make a movement.
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Yeah, so I mean, how do you counsel leaders um at the onset of these conversations?
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Yeah, I mean, that's that's fairly ambitious.
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I mean, we have to admit, right?
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Absolutely.
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I mean, I'd say it's it's fairly ambitious, but I mean, if you look, I think where you see uh in the book of Acts, I think those principles, they're available to every church today.
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And I think that and they still work today.
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And so what that looks like, what I would encourage is um as you think through that uh that movement ready framework, your spiritual renewal, it's what starts and sustains a movement.
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And so we say every movement begins by not moving.
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Every movement begins by not moving.
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It doesn't the way the first place you start is not at a whiteboard in planning, it is on your knees, on your face in prayer.
00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.460
Because, and that's how a movement started in Acts, Acts 1.8.
00:20:03.860 --> 00:20:07.620
And so we wave to the whole uh wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon you in power.
00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:10.500
And so spiritual renewal is what starts it.
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:14.819
Then what shapes the movement, that's the dedication to the few.
00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:16.579
That's disciple-making culture.
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:24.660
And so one of the biggest things that I encourage people just early on is one of the best things you can do if you're like, man, where do I start?
00:20:24.819 --> 00:20:30.740
I don't, you know, even maybe you, maybe you're a groups pastor and you're like, I don't know if my lead pastor sees this.
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:34.500
I don't, you know, or maybe you're just like, man, how do I even see what this looks like?
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:44.740
Find three other people in your life and begin to invest in them, begin to disciple them and start there and then ask them to go and do the same.
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:57.860
It worked for Jesus as he took 12 ordinary men and he started a movement that we still are part of and joining in today because he dedicated the best of his time to the few and then called them to do the same.
00:20:58.100 --> 00:21:13.860
And so I think just at its simplest of how do you start this, before we get into any strategic planning and what's your church's vision and how do you develop a strategy, man, start in prayer and spiritual renewal and start by modeling the culture that you want to replicate.
00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:16.819
I want to go back to that reference to being burned out.
00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:18.740
You know, that's a term that's been around a while.
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:29.700
And I think it's just in the day and the age we live in, you just get worn out with just, I mean, you're because of the constance of media, it you're never really not on, right?
00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:32.019
And I think that's I think that's just part of the world we live in.
00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:34.500
We can complain about it, but it's not going away.
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.900
But all that's to say is it's a real thing.
00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:41.539
Um recent Life Way research validates it, and I'm sure you've seen that.
00:21:41.779 --> 00:21:46.420
Um, sustaining a movement, like we just said, is a fairly demanding enterprise.
00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:52.579
So, how do you and Robbie help leaders avoid burnout or remedy it?
00:21:52.740 --> 00:22:06.819
And I think you've already kind of referenced it, but I'd like for you to just double-click on that and just talk through burnout and you know what counsel you would give to leaders, because I think this applies, I I'm pretty sure I'm safe and saying, all of us at some degree.
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:16.660
But in this context, we're talking about senior pastors, age group leaders, other ministers, group leaders, um, you know, that groups coming every week.
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:18.339
Sometimes that can feel thankless.
00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:25.700
So, what counsel, you know, how do you guys, you know, how do you guys help help leaders and pastors navigate, you know, this phenomenon?
00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:34.900
Yeah, I mean, I think that idea of spiritual renewal, the big idea behind it is uh that there's a desperation in me, that there's a desperate.
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:37.140
inspiration for more of God.
00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.660
And you can, and there is that hunger for God.
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.339
There's a dependency on him.
00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:48.420
And so in the book, what we do is we actually share Robbie's personal journey that he went on.
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:55.299
And then we've uh we have found five shifts that happen in him.
00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:58.259
And what was fun was we just got to kind of relive that story.
00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:12.339
And I remember Robbie progressively as he spent time on the porch, he would come in and it was like he was a different leader, which then spread to being us a different team, which then spread to us being a different church.
00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:19.539
But it started with that personal, his personal relationship with God, the personal revival that God had to do in his heart.
00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:26.500
And so in the book we uh we call them the renew shifts because if we do if Robbie and I are doing anything it's going to always be an acrostic.
00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:32.019
And so it's it looks at five shifts that have to happen in the leader.
00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:41.220
And so one of those just to kind of share is the reliance shift and that is moving from dependence on self to dependence on the spirit.
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:45.779
And what does it look like to lead ministry where we are dependent on the spirit?
00:23:45.860 --> 00:23:52.339
We're not just asking him to bless our planning, but to for it literally to fuel everything we do.
00:23:52.579 --> 00:24:11.860
And I was actually just what you shared made me think I was recently on a our we have our podcast making disciples podcast and we were hosting one of our pastors and he said the first time I realized that I was moving towards burnout is when I realized that I wasn't going to prayer for any of the decisions that I was doing.
00:24:12.100 --> 00:24:25.940
And he was like and and and that just began to continue to build to where prayer really became only what I used to help make transitions, to start meetings, to get the band off the stage and the preachers set up.
00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:34.980
And he goes when prayer became a tool or a transition opposed to it being the fuel for what I was doing I began to move more and more to burnout.
00:24:35.140 --> 00:24:45.779
And so I think that's there's four other those uh in the renew shifts but that's kind of one of those that we that I feel like is almost always the starting point with pastors of getting them back to prayer.
00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:51.460
And the same would be true of anyone in a ministry disciple making leadership position.
00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:57.779
Now Robbie's story is remarkable I think we would have to be really careful not to say well I can't do that.
00:24:57.940 --> 00:25:15.299
Because Robbie would spend, you know, uh Vic's reference to porch time Robbie would go out on the porch for it started at a painful like three to five minutes but he stayed with it and before it was over four to five hours would go by and it would feel like three to five minutes.
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:18.420
But it it requires that rhythm and that commitment.
00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:30.100
But with Robbie and I was meeting with him some through that it was the desperation um and the fact is we're all desperate at some level I think it I think where Robbie came to a point where he had to admit it.
00:25:30.259 --> 00:25:39.779
He had to admit it to himself he had to admit to his family had to admit it to his team and when he was able to do that I think it freed him up for the spirit to work in in in this way.
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:59.860
One thing I would add to that that desperation that's what I look for when I'm with a pastor and and and it's really I'm talking with a pastor to figure out man are you really ready to lead this and I was just with a pastor today in in Georgia and what his words to me were striking.
00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:06.019
Like he just he shared I've always I've always known I've always been passionate about discipleship.
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:12.819
I've never known how to get my church there and he goes and I've been with you guys and I want to do whatever it takes to make it happen.
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:19.140
And and he said this he said I am painfully hungry for help.
00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:20.579
Would you help me?
00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:25.779
And he just said I'll do whatever it takes to make this happen.
00:26:26.019 --> 00:26:32.660
And and and I just and I think that's that place of desperation of like man God's got to move.
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:42.740
Hey we've got to get back to making disciples hey I'm ready to do whatever it takes and and the truth is like we're just always wanting to kind of prepare people for the road ahead.
00:26:42.980 --> 00:26:57.299
It's not if you're passionate for disciple making it's do you have the grip for it because it's going to be a long road ahead but ultimately it's what God's called us to it's what and ultimately it's the most fulfilling ministry that you'll have.
00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:10.420
That's really good Vic from time to time I'll do pre-marriage counseling and one of the things I always bring up is marriage allows you to confront yourself and but you have to be willing to allow that to play out.
00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:14.019
And I think you know what you're saying is something real similar to that.
00:27:14.900 --> 00:27:50.019
In the book you also talk about or reference five myths um ministry myths that stall disciple making talk to us about a few of those before we wrap up yeah that's always a fun one in the disciple making culture people are always like well how do you know if you have a disciple making culture and so that we actually created a tool it's called the Ministry myths tool and it's a free assessment happy to share it with any of your listeners it's but it's the five myths that leaders believe that prevent them from seeing disciple making flourish.
00:27:50.180 --> 00:28:00.339
And the thing about a myth that's scary is a myth is a faulty belief that you that is influencing your behavior and you don't even know it.
00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:14.259
And often in churches these leaders have faulty beliefs about how church ought to be done and those beliefs often with good intentions are having an unintentionally limiting impact.
00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:23.620
And so what this does is just an assessment you can take personally as a team to say man are these myths present and how is it maybe holding us back?
00:28:23.860 --> 00:28:31.779
One of those, the most popular one is the eng are really what we see to be the most foundational and present is the engagement myth.
00:28:31.940 --> 00:28:35.779
It's the belief that activity equals transformation.
00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:51.299
And so what we do is we think if they're active in our programming that man they must be mature and we've just pushed to more program activity but our scorecard and how we measure success is all about how active are they?
00:28:51.620 --> 00:29:04.900
But ultimately activity leads to transformation yes but it's not the same and what we found out in that the reason we found that out is there's a guy named Scotty in our church who is the most active person in our church.
00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:50.180
He was most active at worship in he was in a small group he did volunteer teams he was he came to the prayer nights he listened to every sermon but the problem was Scotty when he introduced himself said hi my name's Scotty and I'm an atheist and so the most active person in our church was an atheist and so by old metrics where that activity is the scoreboard for success we we were off and that sent us on a journey of saying man how do we create a scoreboard that is not about activity and attendance but on transformation and so that that's kind of one of those there the uh is the engagement myth.
00:29:50.259 --> 00:29:58.660
So there's five of those each one of them we give a tool and we give a mantra that the leadership needs to lean into to begin to shape that culture.
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:23.860
So you had one of your most active congregants in terms of just being engaged and involved that was not only a nonbeliever but was well a was an atheist yeah that you know that'll preach yeah I'm glad that he felt comfortable enough I'm glad like there's so many good things that he felt like he could be a part of what we were doing.
00:30:24.019 --> 00:30:29.700
Um but if we're measuring that as success then we've missed it.
00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:42.819
And the flip side of it is there were leaders in our church elders that were in the middle of the pack because they weren't at every program because they were actually busy making disciples out in the community.
00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:46.339
And it was in that point we're just like Houston we have a problem.
00:30:46.579 --> 00:31:01.140
It's a great reference so I mean I gotta ask this you know at various times I have contended that it is that if you're trying to measure discipleship and put a measurement on it that maybe to some degree you're missing the point.
00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:07.220
It's either evident in the fruit or it's not but it sounds like you do have a bit of a scorecard.
00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:10.900
So you know what about the process to get to that scorecard?
00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:12.579
I'm sure you weighed all this out.
00:31:12.819 --> 00:31:56.819
I mean just before we wrap up here real quick talk to us about just how what is how how does replicate uh uh suggest that we measure discipleship uh so we use something called your dream disciple and what that is is uh I mean the principle behind the thing is this is your people will play where the scoreboard is the clearest and so until we get a transformation scoreboard as clear as our activity scoreboard our people will continue to fall into the engagement myth they'll continue to think activity is the measure of maturity and so we have to look and say what is a picture of transformation that we can call our people to and so that's where the dream disciple comes into play.
00:31:56.980 --> 00:33:05.140
And so think about just in your life you are you have multiple roles you're a parent you're a spouse you're a friend you're a coworker what would those roles be of a disciple that people could begin to look to and grow to grow into and so one of those just to share uh some one of my favorites is I was with a church in Oklahoma and their mission statement is stepping into your unique role in God's story by bringing the grace of Jesus into everyday life though they says how do you step into your unique role and I just said R-O-L-E and they said it means that you have ready feet open hands linked arms and eager ears and each of those has a little more definition to it they have questions but the thing that's powerful is they down to in the baby dedication down to in the kids everyone there they know it's almost like head shoulders knees and toes as like a tactile thing but down to kids all the way to adults they say these are the disciples this is what it means to follow Jesus if you're going to be a part of our church here.
00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:15.140
This is what that looks like and it gives a scorecard to the people to say am I living that lifestyle and I think the power in that is twofold.
00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:38.819
One now you move your scoreboard from activity to transformation but then secondly you move who holds the scorecard and no longer is the staff the only one that's looking at the metrics to say is it successful now every person in your church holds a scorecard card for success is asking the question am I becoming this type of disciple?
00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:55.220
I know we've got to wrap up is that unique I mean I that feels unique to me the fact that I'm the owner like I was with the I I was with the men's group one time and we were having a conversation a lot like this and two of the five guys said you know I've never thought about being a disciple before blew my mind.
00:33:55.380 --> 00:34:07.059
They said that's more like people like you pointing to me who was you know the vocational minister in the church staff and it's like okay let's back up because obviously I have made some I've come into this with some presuppositions.
00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:14.739
So it sounds like that is something that maybe we go back to a building block and say you need to own your own maturity.
00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:18.420
You need to own your own scorecard and that that is the shift.
00:34:18.579 --> 00:34:38.179
Yeah I think disciple making has become almost uh institutionalized where it's what the church does in our collective expressions and in the staff it's what the church accomplishes and we've but the Great Commission is not meant to be institutionalized it's individualized.
00:34:38.259 --> 00:34:47.699
Like every individual owns this and so I think too the thing I would add in that is every person has a picture of what it means to follow Jesus.
00:34:48.019 --> 00:34:55.699
And until you get one picture one vision of what it means to follow Jesus you will always have multiple visions.
00:34:55.939 --> 00:34:59.299
And where there's multiple visions there will always be division.
00:34:59.619 --> 00:35:07.939
You will always feel like your people are speaking different languages are there because they are they have different pictures of what you're saying.
00:35:08.019 --> 00:35:14.819
And until we get clear on what do we mean when we say then we're never given all together.
00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:20.179
Just because you have shared language doesn't mean you have shared understanding of that language.
00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:28.339
Getting that shared understanding and language that resonates with your people that gives that new scorecard helps us all begin to move forward together.
00:35:28.659 --> 00:35:30.019
That's such a good word Vic.
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:44.500
That is Vic Green CEO of Replicate Ministries and if you want to find out more you can go to replicate.org and the book is available again anywhere you buy books Movement Ready Church by Vic Green and Robbie Gallady thank you for being with us.
00:35:44.579 --> 00:36:18.259
Vic I thank you for taking time out of your busy day see you on again down the road this episode of Group Answers Podcast was brought to you by our team executive producer Angie Elkins producer Nikki Ogden edited by Donnie Gordon all episodes are recorded at my personal studio in Evergreen Colorado with the help of Riverside FM artwork by Lauren Irvin and I'm your host Brian Daniel thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time on the Groupmancers podcast.
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Welcome to the Group Answers Podcast.
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I'm your host, Brian Daniel.
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This is the weekly show designed specifically for pastors, disciple makers, group pastors, and small group leaders.
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Truly, we are created to help anyone with bottom line responsibilities for discipleship.
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Our goal is simple to resource, train, and encourage you in the vital work of discipleship.
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This is the Group Answers Podcast.
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Let's do it.
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Welcome back to the Group Answers Show, and I am again, and as always, Brian Daniel here with you.
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And today we have with us Replicate Ministries CEO, Vic Green.
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Vic, this is your first time on the show, even though your co-writer uh to the book that we're going to talk about in a minute is a frequent guest, Robbie Galloty.
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We need to get on him to get back.
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But Vic, welcome.
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Welcome to the Group Answers family.
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Hey, thanks so much, Brian.
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Excited to be here and excited to I'll do my best to carry as much of the Robbie energy as I can.
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And so uh we're a little different in stature, a little different in personality, but hey, we're we're we're gonna bring the same disciple making passion.
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So are we all?
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Um what Vic is referencing is our Robbie Galladi is a monster of a man.
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I would say he's probably standing at about six foot six, and and I wouldn't describe him as lethe either.
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I think that's the right word.
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But uh a little bit about replicate ministries.
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Replicate's been around since 2008, I think you said.
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That's right.
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And um, you know, Vic, you can tell us a little bit about the mission and vision there.
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But um I think it's I think it is really cool to say that replicate ministries has served 4,000 churches in the 17 years since it's been in existence.
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Yeah, it's been a wild ride.
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It was started in 08 by Robbie.
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Um, and yeah, that's been 4,000 churches of training.
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So that's been relationally investing and leaders in churches all across the country.
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Um, our passion is helping churches activate their unique disciple-making movement.
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And so getting back to leading the movement that we see in acts, uh, but uniquely applying those principles for churches.
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And so we get to walk alongside churches and help them with their disciple-making culture, with their vision and strategy.
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And so every week I'm usually flying around and with some different leader, and it's a it's just a gift.
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So it's been a lot of fun to be a part of, and um, it's cool to see what's happening across the U.S.
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as it comes to disciple making.
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Some really great words there.
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Discipleship culture, disciple making culture, rather vision and strategy.
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That's what replicate does.
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Funny, you should mention movement, because I want to start there.
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Uh, the book that you co-wrote with Pastor Robbie, Movement Ready Church, is now available anywhere that you buy books.
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Um, tell us the backstory there, Vic.
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I think that's a good place for us to start.
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Works what circumstances prompted you and Robbie to write this book?
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Yeah, we so I think it was 2020 roughly, and so we at Replicate had been around at that point for 12 years.
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Uh, Robbie had been at Long Hollow for five years, and we just asked the simple question, it's actually the start of the book is why isn't it working?
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And we were feeling that we had kind of toolkit 1.0 at replicate, and it was working for a lot of churches.
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There were some good things happening.
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We're always talking about multiplication and how do you get people making disciples out where they live, work, and play.
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We were seeing that in a lot of places, but then there were some places that it wasn't.
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Some churches it just wouldn't take off.
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And where I think that hit even more hard, uh more difficult for us was that also was true at our church at Long Hollow.
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And in 2020.
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In 2020.
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And so Robbie at this point had started replicate, had been at two previous churches, disciple making had flourished, kind of comes to Long Hollow with a kind of uh a playbook that's just like a silver bullet, he would come back and say, now he's like, I got the strategy, we're gonna run this play, and it's gonna work until it didn't.
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And what happened was the church bought in for about a year and a half to our new disciple making plan.
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If you're familiar in the group space with us, we do discipleship groups alongside of small groups or Sunday school structure.
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We started to run that playbook, and it went good for about 18 months until it didn't.
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And we went from we were 8,000 as a church.
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Um, and after five years in, the tenants had dropped down to 4,000.
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And Robbie would share, there he's burning out, the the staff's at a difficult spot, um, everything's just not going like we thought.
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And we started to ask, like, what why isn't it working?
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And then the flip side of that is what must be true for it to work.
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And that really kind of prompted both the journey that we would go on at Long Hollow personally, and then what we discovered as we started to work with churches and began to build Toolkit 2.0.
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We began to identify, hey, what must be true, the essential elements that help disciple making movements happen in churches.
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And so that's kind of what prompted, that was at least the problem that prompted the book.
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I want to pick on the what wasn't working real just real quick before we move on.
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Um, I think anybody listening out there can relate to that.
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And um, he or she, they would have their own story.
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But I think all those stories are a little nuanced.
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There's probably some details that are different.
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What do you remember about that era when you got together with Robbie and the staff?
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Did you replicate, not on staff at Long Hollow, but those two those two entities work real close together.
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What do you remember about the conversation about what's not working?
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What were the indicators of that?
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Yeah, now we can say it a lot clearer than we could in front of the whiteboard and in the room at the time.
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But now, as we look, what we were feeling, and it actually we were feeling all three.
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And you could look and across our network, churches would indicate statements that would kind of fall into one of these three categories.
00:06:50.580 --> 00:06:56.659
We would feel programmed out, we would be stalling out, or we'd be burnt out.
00:06:56.980 --> 00:07:00.500
And those three things, I we were feeling programmed out.
00:07:00.659 --> 00:07:08.419
Like that is that was this idea of we had programs and we were putting trust in certain programs, and it wasn't working like we thought.
00:07:08.580 --> 00:07:19.779
We were stalling out in that we had some language, some organizational clarity, and it was working a little bit, but man, it was not resonating with our people.
00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:26.740
Our staff continued to feel confused, we continued to feel stuck, our systems weren't working like we thought.
00:07:26.899 --> 00:07:36.580
And then lastly, we felt uh, and I think this is the one that we really lean into in the book, and I would encourage for many pastors that they feel burnt out.
00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:40.179
And that was that was really Robbie's story specifically.
00:07:40.340 --> 00:07:42.659
Of he just said, Man, I was burnt out.
00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:49.940
He would go onto the porch and spend hours in silence and prayer, and really it just started as like, God, can you fix my church?
00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:53.139
Can you help me with these problems and can you solve these things?
00:07:53.379 --> 00:08:01.860
What it became was this really personal renewal season for him, where the Holy Spirit just began to show that you're the problem, Robbie.
00:08:02.019 --> 00:08:05.779
And he began to go on a journey personally that he would bring our team into.
00:08:05.940 --> 00:08:26.179
And as we began to practice silence and solitude, as we began to practice praying for God to move, uh, not just praying to bless our plans, but man, being a praying church, we began to see a renewal that actually would spark, we would experience at Long Hollow a revival in 2020, 2021.
00:08:26.259 --> 00:08:31.139
And we'd see, I think it's around 1,600 baptisms in an eight-month span.
00:08:31.220 --> 00:08:37.860
Um, but all of that kind of started from just that burnout got to a place where we were just saying, we can't keep going like this.
00:08:38.019 --> 00:08:39.860
Something has to change.
00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:40.659
Yeah.
00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:59.860
I was just jotting down, I think those symptoms would be fatigue, lack of resonance, there's a disconnect somewhere, and the burned out, out of solutions, it seems like the programmed out and then the burned out would be like out of solutions, the the nothing's working where it feels like the wheels are just spinning and you're not going anywhere.
00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:04.259
And for those of you not familiar with the story that Vic just overviewed, you can Google it.
00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:08.580
Long haul of revival, and there's all kinds of articles and things out there for that.
00:09:08.740 --> 00:09:16.340
It's it's really remarkable and just uh one of the better stories of the last season, I think, of ministry leadership.
00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:28.100
So, Vic, um, the book Movement Ready Church, it's grounded in the disciple-making practices of Jesus' ministry and the early church in Acts, which would surprise no one.
00:09:28.740 --> 00:09:32.340
Um, this begs the question, and I want to get your answer to this.
00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:36.500
So, what is the corrective that you guys are proposing?
00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:43.300
I mean, there's no one out there that's gonna say, well, our discipleship is grounded not in Jesus and not in the New Testament.
00:09:43.540 --> 00:09:46.580
So, what's different uh in movement ready church?
00:09:46.660 --> 00:09:48.019
What what's the big reveal?
00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:49.300
Yeah, I think so.
00:09:49.379 --> 00:09:57.700
What this is, is it's a holistic approach of the conditions that need to be true in the church in its simplest expression.
00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:04.019
And so I say that in that we're looking what has to be true in the hearts of the leader.
00:10:04.259 --> 00:10:12.019
We're looking at what has to be true in the culture, what has to be true in the systems and the organization of the church, the vision and the strategy.
00:10:12.259 --> 00:10:21.060
And so we're looking holistically at it, but we're pulling the principles from the book of Acts and the Gospels there.
00:10:21.139 --> 00:10:27.779
And so everything's kind of coming back to man, this is this is the way that Jesus started and how he led a movement.
00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:33.860
This is how that movement then spread across, obviously to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then the earth.
00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:46.259
Let's bring those principles in a way that how do we apply them to kind of set uh set the set up, you know, that's the idea of like becoming ready for that movement in our church.
00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:52.500
And so the the three things that you look for, the first is spiritual renewal.
00:10:52.660 --> 00:10:54.740
And so it's a spiritual renewal.
00:10:54.820 --> 00:11:01.300
What that is, is that is the desperation in me, is the desperation in leadership.
00:11:02.660 --> 00:11:07.860
Then the second thing a church must have is they have to have a disciple-making culture.
00:11:08.019 --> 00:11:11.700
And a disciple-making culture is a dedication to the few.
00:11:12.580 --> 00:11:15.779
And so it is ultimately what shapes the movement.
00:11:15.940 --> 00:11:20.019
It's the how we grow our church, what success looks like.
00:11:20.259 --> 00:11:24.259
And then lastly, organizational clarity is the third element.
00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:26.420
It's what spreads the movement.
00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:36.180
It is ultimately the words and the systems that we put in place that begin to take what is in the hearts of our us as leaders and give it to our people.
00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:46.820
And so it's a holistic approach grounded in scripture that really helps churches start with a clear assessment of where we're today and what does our church need.
00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:56.180
And I think the beauty of it is churches' leaders as they start, it's just it's simple enough that you can look and say, ah, I've been sensing this, I've been feeling this.
00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:57.860
This is what we've been missing.
00:11:57.940 --> 00:11:59.379
This is what we need more of.
00:11:59.540 --> 00:12:02.899
And it helps begin to start, okay, where do we begin?
00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:08.980
So 4,000 churches, you know, in you know, basically a decade and a half, you've you've made some conclusions.
00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:11.460
You've been you've been and out of a few churches.
00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:13.300
Let me ask you this on those things.
00:12:13.460 --> 00:12:24.259
So spiritual renewal, um, disciple making culture, and organizational clarity, where where do you find most churches uh struggle in that triad?
00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:26.660
Yeah, it's so interesting.
00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:37.460
Um, I think like we just did it at our annual conference, and I believe that you know you have more people that go in organizational clarity or disciple-making culture.
00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:44.420
Um, I do think sometimes speaking to burnout and spiritual renewal is a little bit more of a vulnerable thing to do.
00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:47.700
So I think people are less likely to share that up first.
00:12:47.860 --> 00:12:54.420
And so I think when we've done some wide, like I do think disciple making and organizational clarity both kind of rise more to the top.
00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:57.620
They feel more programmed out or they feel more stalled out.
00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:06.019
Um, and so, but I would I would just say what I find is it's usually something that people connect multiple things to it.
00:13:06.180 --> 00:13:23.620
I had one person say it, we feel like we're like a pinball between those three, and we just keep pinging burnout, programmed out, stalled out, and we try to fix one of those without addressing the other or without looking at the full picture, and we just kind of like another person said it's like we're like a dog chasing our tail.
00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:29.060
And as quick as we advance in one, it then you know we lose ground in the other.
00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:32.740
And so I think that's the power of seeing it and the need for all three together.
00:13:33.060 --> 00:13:39.540
In in some ways, um, the ideas of community and multiplied on north and south poles of this conversation.
00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:48.259
I don't know if that's exactly true or not, but those are the two elements that tend to come up and and and balancing both of those things.
00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:58.500
So I love the distinctive you make between an understanding of discipleship or like the math of it, uh, that can that can get programmed out, I would think.
00:13:58.580 --> 00:14:14.420
You know, you just keep doing the mechanics of discipleship at the detriment of something else, opposed to creating like you what you call the disciple-making culture or creating conditions uh for it to take root and multiply.
00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:22.259
So with that in mind, talk us through that distinction, keeping in mind this idea of community and and and multiplication.
00:14:22.660 --> 00:14:29.940
Yeah, I think it's so easy for churches sometimes to just continue to do what they've seen or what they're used to.
00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:45.139
And I think sometimes in the local church, like what we have seen is there has not been as the disciple making has not been strong largely in the North American church, that we feel like we're not seeing multiplication happening.
00:14:45.540 --> 00:14:56.100
You know, I would say that disciple making has really been a someplay, someday lifestyle, that it's something that happens by the staff on typically Sundays and Wednesdays.
00:14:56.420 --> 00:15:02.420
But what God, what Jesus shows us and what the movement shows us, is that disciple making is an all-play, everyday movement.
00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:05.779
It's for every person in the church, every day of the week.
00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:14.340
And I think what often happens is we grow up in one environment of seeing church done one way, and we just continue to do those things.
00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:20.980
But when you actually step back and you start to assess, man, like, is this actually making disciples?
00:15:21.220 --> 00:15:26.259
And if not, what are some of the things that we need to change to begin to get there?
00:15:26.420 --> 00:15:34.820
And the number one thing is not to add another program, is to begin to assess that culture and to say, man, what is our culture uh at the church?
00:15:34.980 --> 00:15:36.500
Is it developing disciples?
00:15:36.660 --> 00:15:38.340
Is it multiplying disciples?
00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:46.660
One of the things that we often see to what you're saying, community of multiplication, is it's almost like two operating systems in the church.
00:15:47.060 --> 00:15:56.340
You can actually like think about it, like there's one operating system that's like, hey, let's get everybody in the family, let's get them engaged in what we're doing.
00:15:56.580 --> 00:16:00.340
And then the other operating system is multiplication.
00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:03.860
It's looking and saying, man, how do we get them on mission?
00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:09.220
And the truth is a lot of times we can make those competing, but they're meant to go together.
00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:13.700
We were never called to just be the family of God, nor were we called just to be on mission for God.
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:16.580
We were called to be a family that's on mission.
00:16:17.060 --> 00:16:33.620
And I think understanding that community and multiplication both have a place, we just have to know how do those two work together in a way that it calls people into the family of God, but then sends them out to make disciples where they live, work, and play.
00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:41.700
And you can actually see too Acts 2, 42 through 47, if you look through that lens, there's a family that is on mission.
00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:44.340
There's a gathered expression, a scattered expression.
00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:47.379
There's an inward impact, there's an external impact.
00:16:47.540 --> 00:17:02.740
And so seeing both of those together and how to align all of your systems, your programs, your vision to emphasize both community and multiplication, family and mission is key if we're going to see a movement like we saw with Jesus in Acts.
00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:07.220
How has this at times meant that churches have to stop doing things?
00:17:07.539 --> 00:17:16.579
Vic seems like to me that, you know, there are good things that are that work to the detriment of this movement that we're talking about.
00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:31.059
And I'm sure when you're in a church, a lot and Vic, you may very well see this real quick, you know, like in the first 30 minutes that you've sat down with leadership, is like, oh man, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to really make some hard decisions here.
00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:33.220
Is that something you run into quite a bit?
00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:34.180
Absolutely.
00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:43.620
I mean, I think I I I say this a little tongue-in-cheek, like I I no longer like listen and care so much if you want to see disciple making in your church.
00:17:43.779 --> 00:17:51.539
Like, and I say that as every pastor that I talk to, if we're having a conversation, there's some level of like, we want this.
00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:54.740
My question is, what are you willing to give up for it?
00:17:55.620 --> 00:18:05.380
Because what is true is like we can't continue to hold to everything that we have now and doing church the same way that we have, and just be like, we'll just add on disciple making.
00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:10.900
Like disciple making was never meant to be a ministry of the church, uh, a ministry in the church.
00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:12.740
It is the ministry of the church.
00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:14.420
It is what we are called to do.
00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:22.339
And so I think so much of when we're leading disciple making is we need to we need to look and say, what are we willing to give up for it?
00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:34.100
And because at the end of the day, our staff, our people, we don't have more time and energy and budget like to just be like, oh, let's just double what we're doing.
00:18:34.339 --> 00:18:43.380
There has to be something that changes in how we're operating today to make the capacity for everyone to be able to see multiplication happen.
00:18:43.620 --> 00:18:51.299
So you've referenced movement a few times now, and uh the title of the book that you and Robbie wrote is Movement Ready Church.
00:18:51.620 --> 00:18:52.980
And it's a it's just that.
00:18:53.059 --> 00:18:54.420
We're talking about a movement.
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:58.259
So um, you know, what is the advice?
00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:02.500
Because it's kind of like a in some ways making a viral video.
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:03.940
Hey, let's go make a viral video.
00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:07.140
Yeah, you don't know that's if it's gonna be viral or not.
00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:08.740
Movement is real similar to that.
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:10.339
Let's just go make a movement.
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:16.420
Yeah, so I mean, how do you counsel leaders um at the onset of these conversations?
00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:18.900
Yeah, I mean, that's that's fairly ambitious.
00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:20.500
I mean, we have to admit, right?
00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:21.380
Absolutely.
00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:31.860
I mean, I'd say it's it's fairly ambitious, but I mean, if you look, I think where you see uh in the book of Acts, I think those principles, they're available to every church today.
00:19:32.019 --> 00:19:33.940
And I think that and they still work today.
00:19:34.100 --> 00:19:45.140
And so what that looks like, what I would encourage is um as you think through that uh that movement ready framework, your spiritual renewal, it's what starts and sustains a movement.
00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:49.779
And so we say every movement begins by not moving.
00:19:50.259 --> 00:19:52.019
Every movement begins by not moving.
00:19:52.100 --> 00:20:00.180
It doesn't the way the first place you start is not at a whiteboard in planning, it is on your knees, on your face in prayer.
00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.460
Because, and that's how a movement started in Acts, Acts 1.8.
00:20:03.860 --> 00:20:07.620
And so we wave to the whole uh wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon you in power.
00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:10.500
And so spiritual renewal is what starts it.
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:14.819
Then what shapes the movement, that's the dedication to the few.
00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:16.579
That's disciple-making culture.
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:24.660
And so one of the biggest things that I encourage people just early on is one of the best things you can do if you're like, man, where do I start?
00:20:24.819 --> 00:20:30.740
I don't, you know, even maybe you, maybe you're a groups pastor and you're like, I don't know if my lead pastor sees this.
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:34.500
I don't, you know, or maybe you're just like, man, how do I even see what this looks like?
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:44.740
Find three other people in your life and begin to invest in them, begin to disciple them and start there and then ask them to go and do the same.
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:57.860
It worked for Jesus as he took 12 ordinary men and he started a movement that we still are part of and joining in today because he dedicated the best of his time to the few and then called them to do the same.
00:20:58.100 --> 00:21:13.860
And so I think just at its simplest of how do you start this, before we get into any strategic planning and what's your church's vision and how do you develop a strategy, man, start in prayer and spiritual renewal and start by modeling the culture that you want to replicate.
00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:16.819
I want to go back to that reference to being burned out.
00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:18.740
You know, that's a term that's been around a while.
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:29.700
And I think it's just in the day and the age we live in, you just get worn out with just, I mean, you're because of the constance of media, it you're never really not on, right?
00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:32.019
And I think that's I think that's just part of the world we live in.
00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:34.500
We can complain about it, but it's not going away.
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.900
But all that's to say is it's a real thing.
00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:41.539
Um recent Life Way research validates it, and I'm sure you've seen that.
00:21:41.779 --> 00:21:46.420
Um, sustaining a movement, like we just said, is a fairly demanding enterprise.
00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:52.579
So, how do you and Robbie help leaders avoid burnout or remedy it?
00:21:52.740 --> 00:22:06.819
And I think you've already kind of referenced it, but I'd like for you to just double-click on that and just talk through burnout and you know what counsel you would give to leaders, because I think this applies, I I'm pretty sure I'm safe and saying, all of us at some degree.
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:16.660
But in this context, we're talking about senior pastors, age group leaders, other ministers, group leaders, um, you know, that groups coming every week.
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:18.339
Sometimes that can feel thankless.
00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:25.700
So, what counsel, you know, how do you guys, you know, how do you guys help help leaders and pastors navigate, you know, this phenomenon?
00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:34.900
Yeah, I mean, I think that idea of spiritual renewal, the big idea behind it is uh that there's a desperation in me, that there's a desperate.
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:37.140
inspiration for more of God.
00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.660
And you can, and there is that hunger for God.
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.339
There's a dependency on him.
00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:48.420
And so in the book, what we do is we actually share Robbie's personal journey that he went on.
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:55.299
And then we've uh we have found five shifts that happen in him.
00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:58.259
And what was fun was we just got to kind of relive that story.
00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:12.339
And I remember Robbie progressively as he spent time on the porch, he would come in and it was like he was a different leader, which then spread to being us a different team, which then spread to us being a different church.
00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:19.539
But it started with that personal, his personal relationship with God, the personal revival that God had to do in his heart.
00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:26.500
And so in the book we uh we call them the renew shifts because if we do if Robbie and I are doing anything it's going to always be an acrostic.
00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:32.019
And so it's it looks at five shifts that have to happen in the leader.
00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:41.220
And so one of those just to kind of share is the reliance shift and that is moving from dependence on self to dependence on the spirit.
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:45.779
And what does it look like to lead ministry where we are dependent on the spirit?
00:23:45.860 --> 00:23:52.339
We're not just asking him to bless our planning, but to for it literally to fuel everything we do.
00:23:52.579 --> 00:24:11.860
And I was actually just what you shared made me think I was recently on a our we have our podcast making disciples podcast and we were hosting one of our pastors and he said the first time I realized that I was moving towards burnout is when I realized that I wasn't going to prayer for any of the decisions that I was doing.
00:24:12.100 --> 00:24:25.940
And he was like and and and that just began to continue to build to where prayer really became only what I used to help make transitions, to start meetings, to get the band off the stage and the preachers set up.
00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:34.980
And he goes when prayer became a tool or a transition opposed to it being the fuel for what I was doing I began to move more and more to burnout.
00:24:35.140 --> 00:24:45.779
And so I think that's there's four other those uh in the renew shifts but that's kind of one of those that we that I feel like is almost always the starting point with pastors of getting them back to prayer.
00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:51.460
And the same would be true of anyone in a ministry disciple making leadership position.
00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:57.779
Now Robbie's story is remarkable I think we would have to be really careful not to say well I can't do that.
00:24:57.940 --> 00:25:15.299
Because Robbie would spend, you know, uh Vic's reference to porch time Robbie would go out on the porch for it started at a painful like three to five minutes but he stayed with it and before it was over four to five hours would go by and it would feel like three to five minutes.
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:18.420
But it it requires that rhythm and that commitment.
00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:30.100
But with Robbie and I was meeting with him some through that it was the desperation um and the fact is we're all desperate at some level I think it I think where Robbie came to a point where he had to admit it.
00:25:30.259 --> 00:25:39.779
He had to admit it to himself he had to admit to his family had to admit it to his team and when he was able to do that I think it freed him up for the spirit to work in in in this way.
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:59.860
One thing I would add to that that desperation that's what I look for when I'm with a pastor and and and it's really I'm talking with a pastor to figure out man are you really ready to lead this and I was just with a pastor today in in Georgia and what his words to me were striking.
00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:06.019
Like he just he shared I've always I've always known I've always been passionate about discipleship.
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:12.819
I've never known how to get my church there and he goes and I've been with you guys and I want to do whatever it takes to make it happen.
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:19.140
And and he said this he said I am painfully hungry for help.
00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:20.579
Would you help me?
00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:25.779
And he just said I'll do whatever it takes to make this happen.
00:26:26.019 --> 00:26:32.660
And and and I just and I think that's that place of desperation of like man God's got to move.
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:42.740
Hey we've got to get back to making disciples hey I'm ready to do whatever it takes and and the truth is like we're just always wanting to kind of prepare people for the road ahead.
00:26:42.980 --> 00:26:57.299
It's not if you're passionate for disciple making it's do you have the grip for it because it's going to be a long road ahead but ultimately it's what God's called us to it's what and ultimately it's the most fulfilling ministry that you'll have.
00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:10.420
That's really good Vic from time to time I'll do pre-marriage counseling and one of the things I always bring up is marriage allows you to confront yourself and but you have to be willing to allow that to play out.
00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:14.019
And I think you know what you're saying is something real similar to that.
00:27:14.900 --> 00:27:50.019
In the book you also talk about or reference five myths um ministry myths that stall disciple making talk to us about a few of those before we wrap up yeah that's always a fun one in the disciple making culture people are always like well how do you know if you have a disciple making culture and so that we actually created a tool it's called the Ministry myths tool and it's a free assessment happy to share it with any of your listeners it's but it's the five myths that leaders believe that prevent them from seeing disciple making flourish.
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And the thing about a myth that's scary is a myth is a faulty belief that you that is influencing your behavior and you don't even know it.
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And often in churches these leaders have faulty beliefs about how church ought to be done and those beliefs often with good intentions are having an unintentionally limiting impact.
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And so what this does is just an assessment you can take personally as a team to say man are these myths present and how is it maybe holding us back?
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One of those, the most popular one is the eng are really what we see to be the most foundational and present is the engagement myth.
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It's the belief that activity equals transformation.
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And so what we do is we think if they're active in our programming that man they must be mature and we've just pushed to more program activity but our scorecard and how we measure success is all about how active are they?
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But ultimately activity leads to transformation yes but it's not the same and what we found out in that the reason we found that out is there's a guy named Scotty in our church who is the most active person in our church.
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He was most active at worship in he was in a small group he did volunteer teams he was he came to the prayer nights he listened to every sermon but the problem was Scotty when he introduced himself said hi my name's Scotty and I'm an atheist and so the most active person in our church was an atheist and so by old metrics where that activity is the scoreboard for success we we were off and that sent us on a journey of saying man how do we create a scoreboard that is not about activity and attendance but on transformation and so that that's kind of one of those there the uh is the engagement myth.
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So there's five of those each one of them we give a tool and we give a mantra that the leadership needs to lean into to begin to shape that culture.
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So you had one of your most active congregants in terms of just being engaged and involved that was not only a nonbeliever but was well a was an atheist yeah that you know that'll preach yeah I'm glad that he felt comfortable enough I'm glad like there's so many good things that he felt like he could be a part of what we were doing.
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Um but if we're measuring that as success then we've missed it.
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And the flip side of it is there were leaders in our church elders that were in the middle of the pack because they weren't at every program because they were actually busy making disciples out in the community.
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And it was in that point we're just like Houston we have a problem.
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It's a great reference so I mean I gotta ask this you know at various times I have contended that it is that if you're trying to measure discipleship and put a measurement on it that maybe to some degree you're missing the point.
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It's either evident in the fruit or it's not but it sounds like you do have a bit of a scorecard.
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So you know what about the process to get to that scorecard?
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I'm sure you weighed all this out.
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I mean just before we wrap up here real quick talk to us about just how what is how how does replicate uh uh suggest that we measure discipleship uh so we use something called your dream disciple and what that is is uh I mean the principle behind the thing is this is your people will play where the scoreboard is the clearest and so until we get a transformation scoreboard as clear as our activity scoreboard our people will continue to fall into the engagement myth they'll continue to think activity is the measure of maturity and so we have to look and say what is a picture of transformation that we can call our people to and so that's where the dream disciple comes into play.
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And so think about just in your life you are you have multiple roles you're a parent you're a spouse you're a friend you're a coworker what would those roles be of a disciple that people could begin to look to and grow to grow into and so one of those just to share uh some one of my favorites is I was with a church in Oklahoma and their mission statement is stepping into your unique role in God's story by bringing the grace of Jesus into everyday life though they says how do you step into your unique role and I just said R-O-L-E and they said it means that you have ready feet open hands linked arms and eager ears and each of those has a little more definition to it they have questions but the thing that's powerful is they down to in the baby dedication down to in the kids everyone there they know it's almost like head shoulders knees and toes as like a tactile thing but down to kids all the way to adults they say these are the disciples this is what it means to follow Jesus if you're going to be a part of our church here.
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This is what that looks like and it gives a scorecard to the people to say am I living that lifestyle and I think the power in that is twofold.
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One now you move your scoreboard from activity to transformation but then secondly you move who holds the scorecard and no longer is the staff the only one that's looking at the metrics to say is it successful now every person in your church holds a scorecard card for success is asking the question am I becoming this type of disciple?
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I know we've got to wrap up is that unique I mean I that feels unique to me the fact that I'm the owner like I was with the I I was with the men's group one time and we were having a conversation a lot like this and two of the five guys said you know I've never thought about being a disciple before blew my mind.
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They said that's more like people like you pointing to me who was you know the vocational minister in the church staff and it's like okay let's back up because obviously I have made some I've come into this with some presuppositions.
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So it sounds like that is something that maybe we go back to a building block and say you need to own your own maturity.
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You need to own your own scorecard and that that is the shift.
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Yeah I think disciple making has become almost uh institutionalized where it's what the church does in our collective expressions and in the staff it's what the church accomplishes and we've but the Great Commission is not meant to be institutionalized it's individualized.
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Like every individual owns this and so I think too the thing I would add in that is every person has a picture of what it means to follow Jesus.
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And until you get one picture one vision of what it means to follow Jesus you will always have multiple visions.
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And where there's multiple visions there will always be division.
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You will always feel like your people are speaking different languages are there because they are they have different pictures of what you're saying.
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And until we get clear on what do we mean when we say then we're never given all together.
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Just because you have shared language doesn't mean you have shared understanding of that language.
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Getting that shared understanding and language that resonates with your people that gives that new scorecard helps us all begin to move forward together.
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That's such a good word Vic.
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That is Vic Green CEO of Replicate Ministries and if you want to find out more you can go to replicate.org and the book is available again anywhere you buy books Movement Ready Church by Vic Green and Robbie Gallady thank you for being with us.
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Vic I thank you for taking time out of your busy day see you on again down the road this episode of Group Answers Podcast was brought to you by our team executive producer Angie Elkins producer Nikki Ogden edited by Donnie Gordon all episodes are recorded at my personal studio in Evergreen Colorado with the help of Riverside FM artwork by Lauren Irvin and I'm your host Brian Daniel thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time on the Groupmancers podcast.
