Trust Factor During Disasters

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Welcome to the Disaster's Own Podcast. I'm Eric Holdeman, your host,
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and with me today is Kenny Edesina, a disaster researcher.
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You know, trust is a basic ingredient in every relationship.
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This applies to individuals, marriages, business partners, nations, and the
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relationship of governments to individuals. And so trust is a
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topic we're going to explore today and how it applies
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to emergency management and disasters and I'm sure disaster communication.
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So please join me and welcoming Kenny to the Disaster's
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Own Podcast.
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Thank you, Eric, We're looking forward to this one. As
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you said, trust is the subject I keep coming back
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so on disaster communication is exactly the content with matters
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most So this feels like a right conversation and I'm
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happy to be here with you.
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Yeah, I think you can stay employed for the rest
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of your life on the topic of trust. So my
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podcast listeners know that my first question is always the same,
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what's your educational background? And then the professional work experiences
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that you have head up into today and your entire
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bio is in the description of the podcast, but if
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you can go over that briefly.
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Sure, let me start where it actually began, which is
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in Nigeria. I grew up in a small community and
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I remember watching what happened when systems it showed up
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for people or even when it didn't. So I saw
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the gaps in healthcare, access, public information, etc. So that
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just stayed with me fully growing up. And I studied
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communications and journalism at Beijing on my university in China.
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I graduated in twenty twenty, which, as everyone remembers, was
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a memorable years to finish a degree because of COVID
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and it was spreading around the world and you know,
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everyone was watching. I was also watching right there from China,
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how things were being reacted to how our government and
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even organizations were putting out information, and that gave me
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particular distinct advantage points. So after that, I came to
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the United States from my master's degree in communication that
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was at the University of Illinois at Springfield. I finished
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there in twenty three and after finishing my degree, I
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was selected as an Illinoised Science Policy Fellow and I
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worked as a media production coordinator at the Illinois Department
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of Agriculture. I was doing communication around conversation conservation, climate resilience,
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and food systems and that was actually when things shifted
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for me. So the work was no longer about engagement
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or to reach people, but it was about decisions that
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affected farmers and communities, so when they had information, what
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they needed to make up those informations and even the
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decisions they would make. So those were the things I
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was working on. And a year after that that was
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when I started my PhD at the University of Oklahoma.
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Here we call it Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communication.
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So I came in thinking honestly about misinformation, so how
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people navigate false information across different platforms. But then I
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got involved in an NSS funded grant. NSF is the
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National Science Foundation, and it was a grant by my
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advisor at doctor Angela Johnes. So in these project she
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was conducting interviews with emergency managers and nonprofit leaders and
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I was there. I was helping to conduct these interviews
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with FIT based organizations. I was helping to organize cross
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sector prepared news workshops so we have that every year,
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and analyzing different data right and somewhere in the middle
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of that work, that was when I found a question
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that I've actually been thinking about all my carrier, which
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is why does communications feil communities at that exact moment
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when they need it most, and specifically what role does
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trust play in that filure. So all of these things
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put together is kind of directing where I'm pointing right now,
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which is crisis and disaster, communications, public trust, misinformation, and
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most importantly, how organizations coordinate across sectors and what happens
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when those coordination system breaks down.
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Okay, that's a very interesting I mean, you're really at
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the beginning of your professional work. Yes, all the training
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I quick question. I remember meeting a young woman, a Russian.
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We were at a cell phone shop in Heidelberg, German.
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She's attending University of Heidelberg, and I said, well, how's
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your German? And she had good English feels she said
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not very good? So how does that work for the university?
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And so everything's in English? So in China, yes, Well,
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all the training and classes in English?
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Or did you learn Chinese?
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I did learn Chinese. That's a whole different story of
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how I started learning Chinese.
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But my.
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Instruction record of you know, the language of instruction, so
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to say, was in Chinese hundred percent. So I was
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doing my projectable, my thesis class presentation assignment. Everything was
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in Chinese language.
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Yeah, bless you, thank you. Yeah, the bigger brain than
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I do.
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I'll talk Okay, Well, you said that the message is
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rarely the problem. Most of the time, the problem is
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the meaning of the message and a crisis communications research
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research shows that by the time an institutional message reaches
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the public, people have already run through a layered psychological process.
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How about explaining what is.
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Meant by that? You're very right saying that, Eric, And
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this is one of the things that sounds It sounds
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obvious when you say it, but it changes a lot
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about how you approach the work. So when institutions put
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out a message during the disaster, they haven't thinking about accuracy.
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They are thinking about clarity, and that's when they're asking
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questions like did we get the facts right? Is this
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output readable? Did we send it through the right channels?
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You know, don't get me wrong. All of these are
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legitimate questions. But by the time that message reaches someone
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in the public, they've already done a tremendous amount of
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psychological work that the message is walking into. So they've
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asked who caused this, They've evaluated whether it affects them
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personally or whether they have any capacity to deal with it,
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and they felt you know, different emotions like fear, anger, uncertainty,
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anxiety and all of that, and the firm sense of
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what things have from before the official accounts actually arrive.
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So all of these have come together to you know,
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before even the official message came. They've even checked with
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people around them, many neighbors, families and all of that. Right,
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so the official message is not like the first thing
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they received. It's coming into already a context that is
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already in the head of the people of the public.
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So the research framework and building tries to map that process.
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So I'm working in stages where people move through the
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moment they receive the institutional communication or what I call
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the official messages or official warnings. So the movement they
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actually take action or they decide not to take actions.
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So this institution institutional message is not the whole framework,
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it's just one of it. And what happens in these
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stages that follow when people receive it or even before that,
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actually determines the final stage if they take action or
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they do not. So when a message, officially or official
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information is clearly or carefully reading, it's fractually accurate, but
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it still doesn't mean it doesn't move people, it doesn't
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make them to act. The question we should be asking
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is not that, okay, what is wrong with this statement?
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The question I think we should be asking is what
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had happened already before people actually come into contact with
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this message, before it was even shared at all. So
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that's more the challengeship. But that I understand. And unfortunately,
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you know, based on research and again my little few
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years of experience in this field, I feel like most
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crisis communications training don't really go quite reached deep into this.
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So I think the key thing for me, I'll you know,
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what you've been talking about is that people are not
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sitting around waiting for the government to say what's happening.
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They're in our information age, going out and seeking other information.
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However they do that. It could be the Internet, it
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could be.
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Reaching out to neighbors, whatever, so that when your message
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shows up, isn't like, oh, now we have all the information.
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We know that they're integrating what you've just told them
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with other sources.
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Right, so.
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You've done And are you familiar with Dennis Maletti And
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he's a crisis communications guy, and he had the concept
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of milling that people don't act immediately, that they always
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will contact other.
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People see what they're doing. That wouldn't say order evacuation.
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They don't automatically exactly what's Sally doing, what my neighbor's doing,
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I call my mother.
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I don't know if you're familiar with that term at all.
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Yes, yes, and yeah that rings the bell. And actually
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that is a very strong part of my research. I'm
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researching mostly on the network of how people you know what,
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I received this message and as you said, people are thinking,
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what is my mother thinking about it? I actually break
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it at into four well three, mostly based on the
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relation of proximity. That's the way I call it. A
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relation of proximity, which means how close the relation of
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the other party is to the person that is receiving
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the information. So the first one is a family, the friends,
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Those are the closest, right. Then the next ones are
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maybe the neighbors. They are closed, but because they live
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in the same community or the necessarily doesn't really have
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contact like that every day, but because they live in
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the same community, they are you know, they have that
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relation of proximity. And the third one that is a
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little bit futter or is just people that are close
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based on their ideology the different identity. So you're thinking
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fit based organizations, civic of an organization. So those are
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the ones that I feel like, yes, I really agree
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with you, and I agree with what you just say
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based on my own study on what I'm doing. That's
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the way I break it down into the three different groups.
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You know, I don't know.
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Again, this is the old thing that's been done in
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training sessions for emergency managers. You start out, Yeah, people
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in a circle and classroom and someone's told burbla, here's
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the message to be transmitted. Maybe it's one or two sentences,
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and then they're told to pass that along to the
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next person next to them, and then that person passed
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along person next to one, and then at the end
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you get back all the way around you say, okay,
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what was the message?
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A lot of times that's not.
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Anywhere near what the original message was. And I yes,
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that's a real challenge too. People interpret the words differently.
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I mean, tell me, maybe it's told this is a
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terrible situation and likely to get worse, and that's translated,
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well it isn't good, and the outlook isn't good either,
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you know, and.
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By the time you get around, well, it's not that bad,
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but we'll have to wait to see what happens.
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Yes, you know, I once said, you know, it won't
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be that hard if we just took people out of
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the equation.
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So what causes rumors to spread?
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And then how does silence create the exact condition that
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rumors need to spread?
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That's that's a very good question, Eric to answer that.
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There's a foundational principle in romo psychology that's dating back
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to all portant postmaned think that should be in the
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nineteen forties, nineteen forty seven, if I'm not mistaken.
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Almost almost.
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Yeah, what he said is that rumor spread more when
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news is either lacking or when it's subjectively ambigal. So
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and both of these conditions occur when agencies go quiet
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to check the fact, and often when they are intellect
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unintentionally for the room or meals. So I go back
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to room and meal what you talked about, like the
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meal earlier. Inside the organization, silence might feel responsible, right,
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you know, when you're not sure you're being.
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Careful of what.
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Yeah, exactly right, But from outside, when people are looking
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at that silence seems very different, right. People see as
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maybe you're avoiding something, you're not taking responsibility, or you're
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even confirming their worst fears about the situation. So why
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you're taking your own time to respond? Others are already
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for media own opinions are moving forward. So I remember
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one of the studies I did. It was we looked
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at three thousand posts on x well we used to
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be called twiteter and during the Hurricane Hellen, and we
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found that misinformation was most concentrated in two categories. So
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the first one was narratives about response delays and eight distributions.
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So these two narratives, and they were not just different
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random topics, right, They were the areas where the people
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had urgent needs, UGent questions and they did not receive
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official answers. So they filled the gap themselves with whatever
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was available, so different fragments, social video posts, whatever, whatever.
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The neighbors said. The information environment didn't just stay empty, right,
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it just fills up with people. Information that is passing
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around with people from people to people. So they fix
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to me, I think it's not rushing out to release
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that bad information quickly. I agree with organizations not you know,
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quickly putting out what they are not sure about, right.
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But I think instead of that, they can share something
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early that shows that you understand how people might be feeling. So,
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for example, they can say, Okay, here's what we know. Here,
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here is what we don't know yet, and here is
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what we are actively doing. And here is when you
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can actually hear back from us again. And I think
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also they can share what they are currently doing and
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what people themselves can actually do to help themselves, Like, Okay,
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right now, maybe this situation is going on, you can
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do this, do this, do this to mitigate the risk
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when you know so it doesn't really affect you. While
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we get more information, we do more science research, and
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we get the best information to you. I think this
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kind of approach it's a space of trust. It shows
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people that the organization is present and that more information
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is on the way, and they are actually genuinely considering
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the well being of those people. And most importantly, I
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think it helps prevent others from controlling the information environment.
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Okay, and I just made a note to myself. I
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took notes during a two day series. My listeners may
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may remember this. Peter sand Man, he's retired now, but
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here's a crisis communications consultant who got paid a lot.
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Of money, a lot of money. Be quiet, that's alected
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give me struggle here. But I took some notes.
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I'll send those to you, maybe you'll find them interesting,
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and talked about the difference between crisis communications and then
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outrage communications. You know, there's no real crisis, but there's
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outrage still, which could be different.
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I would think, and you can tell me if I'm wrong.
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I'd rather if I just don't know.
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I would take the worst case action or language to
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point what's happening, saying we don't know for sure, but
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this is the worst case, So act on this information
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for now. Because people will forgive you if they had
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to do something and didn't turn out to be so bad,
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But if it was really bad and you didn't tell
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them it was going to be bad bad, Yes, there
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is no forgiveness. Yes you're nodding, but go ahead and
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say something verbally.
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Yeacause I said I agree with you on that, And
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that's why I say, like you have to be. I
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believe in transparency organizations, which you know legally sometimes it
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makes sense to think about it, right, but I believe
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in total transparency and being very like coming forward to people,
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I say okay, this is what we know. Now you
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can do this based on the science or the information
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we have so far. And from there, if new information comes,
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then you're going to again pass it across to the
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people and say okay, based on the new information we have,
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now you can do this or do that, or don't
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do this anymore. You can switch these actions. So all
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of this helps to people to don't know that you're
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thinking about them. You want their best, you have their
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best interesting heart, and they know, okay, they can trust you.
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So all of these come together to form that kind
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of trust and bondy you have with your audience or
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with your clients, or with your public if it's a
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corporate organization, to say, okay, we know the people are saying,
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we know that these organizations have a best in treason
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heart and they are going to give us the information
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right when they know, they're going to give us the
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actions to take, and we know that okay, this is
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going to be the best for us.
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Okay, And you know you're talking about how fast misinformation
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outrightes live travel. There's an whole quote I want to say.
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It was Winston Churchill, I've been someone else.
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It's like a lie can travel around.
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The world while truth is getting its pants on something
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like that. So it's another example of act quickly because
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that lyle spread faster than.
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And when you're trying to catch up, when you're trying
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to catch up, it's it's nearly impossible.
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Yeah. Okay.
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So the other thing that happens, and it happens every disaster,
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is pointing the finger and trying to establish blame can
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come early.
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On the disaster. I mean.
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The media generally asked two questions. They might not say that,
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they might say who's responsible for one? And then how
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much do it cost? How much is two things?
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Yeah?
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So what does that do when blame becomes the dominant
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message or question or discussion.
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Point, Well, to answer the question very shortly, it caused
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out recovery. That's the answer. But if I not go
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into more detail and based on research I've done, actually
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analyzed over thirty three hundred posts of again Twitter posts,
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but that was during the twenty twenty two Nigerian floods
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and background information the flood. It was especially the one
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from towards the end of the year in twenty twenty
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two I kill the over a million people was crazy,
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terrible for me.
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Huge, Yes, we talk about fifty hundred the you've all
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day now has the shooting, the Texas flooding that happened
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a year ago.
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Yes, can't paradise now what that camp mystic?
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Yes?
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So a million people?
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Oh yeah, sorry, let me let me let me rephrase that.
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So it displaced by a million people, by six hundred people,
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over six hundred people, that's still a huge number of
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people that due to stuff. And well, the study kind
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of was accepted, actually not kind of was accepted. That
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we have something we call the a d m C
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Association for Education in Journalism and Mass Communications. It's a
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NANO conference and it's kind of it's the largest for
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the because I'm a journalism journalism and mass communications color
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so in our field, this is the biggest. It's international world.
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It holds this year in New Orleans. And this paper
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was accepted, and I'm just proud of put that out there.
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But one of the interesting findings that I got from
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the study was about the relationship between how a disaster
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is attributed and whether the recovery communications gets any traction
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at all. So when social media framed the floods as
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a human failure, so that again attributing the blame to
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human the government negligence, for example, preventable infrastructure collapse and
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even policy decisions by the politicians that led to death.
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Only about thirteen point seven percent of those posts included
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message that promotes resilience. But when you're thinking about it
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from the other hand, when these floods that it was
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seeing as or they were seen as not to our event,
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resilience messages appeared in sixty three point one percent of
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those posts, so almost five times to score. All right,
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this shows that framing a disaster influences how effectively recovery
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communications resonates with people. And another thing is to amplify
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that is opinion leaders in the in the research they
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contributed to forty five point thirty percent of the frames,
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but the general public amplified ninety three point nine of them.
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So initially only a small number of voices the frame
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in the early hours, but then it quickly spread everywhere. Right,
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So when blame again becomes the dominant story, any recovery
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message you share, as I said before, has a tough
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time making an impact, and it's just like swimming against
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a very strong current.
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Right.
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The practical implication that I think is that the attribution window,
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that's the first hours, of the first few hours, when
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people are forming the understanding of what caused the situation,
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it is very, very, very important. So I'm not deflecting
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from legitimate accountability. But when blame sets in early, it
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can do more than just affect the reputation of the
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government or of the organization. It also influences whether the
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recovery communication will reach anyone at all. Because people already
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have that blamer, they construct the frame in their head,
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so it's hard for them to put in any other message.
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Well, that's the other thing I found that I was
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in the army had an old sergeant major.
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He looked old. At the tangary, I think it was old.
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But you say, I have at ten to the eight
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point my finger just you know what I'm talking at
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point and he says, sir, you know when your point
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that finger, there are three fingers pointing.
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Back at you.
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So on that note, I do not see people post
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disaster blaming themselves. So I chose to live in the woods.
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I didn't do anything with fire wise. I had a
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wood shaped roof. I did not have good access into
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my site, so that fire trucks helped.
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Protect my property.
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I did all these bad things, but I'm not going
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to blame myself for the fact that my house gone
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or oh I love living right by the river.
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It's wonderful.
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And you know, everybody used to blame for the river flooding,
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but them we building a house right next to the river.
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You know, yes, yes, yes, I agree with you. It's
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easier to you know, I've seen those times and times
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again in disaster communications, people easily blame you know, the
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auto party, the outside pardy done, the looking what.
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Yeah, yeah, Well you say that social media rumors during
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disasters are not irrational, they're psychologically purposeful, and that research
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on disaster rumored psychology shows that people share unverified information
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during crisises primarily to reduce uncertainty, managed.
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Anxiety and makes sense what's happening?
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Can you expand on all that for us?
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Sure? Sure? And that extinction is very very important because
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if you treat rumors as irrational, then your response is
419
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going to be wrong. Excuse me. So, research on rumors
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psychologists identifies three main motivations for why people share on
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verifying information during crisis Number one is fact finding, so
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people genuinely want to just reduce uncertainty and figure out
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what is happening. Number two is relationship enhancement, and which
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is when we share information. It is a lovely way
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to connect with people, you know, because we are a
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We are are your animals, as they say in science,
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and we thrive on communication and sharing of information. So
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by that way of sharing information, we are connecting with others.
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We are showing that we are engaged, we are showing
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that we are aware, and we even want to help
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everyone feel like they belong to the community as we
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all move through this journey together. But the number three
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is self enhancement. That's when everything feels like, okay, it's
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getting out of control. I don't have any sense of agency.
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People often find and share information as a comforting way
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to regain a sense of control, to feel that, you know,
437
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subsense of agency. And none of these are irrational at all.
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They are really natural. As I said, we are higher animals.
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We thrive on information sharing and human reactions. When faced
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with a situation like that, especially when it's uncertain, it's cary,
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it's dangerous, it's unprecedented, it's just what they thrive on.
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And as I said before, our put and postman pointed
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out that rumors often serve as a way for people
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to ease those tensions caused by fear. So when there's
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no official information and things seem urgent and dangerous, people
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don't just endure the uncertainties silently. They come together. They
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walk through it side by side. And in the Hurricane
448
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Alien Fever study that I mentioned earlier, we found out
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misinformation and blame often went hand in hand with noticeable
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negative shifts in public opinion in the states that were
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affected by the hurricane. And this shows that people when
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they're managing anxiety, they use all these rumors to as
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a form of managing the situation they have on hand.
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And when a loss of trust in institution directly impacts
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people's perceptions, this roumor comes out or the emerge to
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address in need and the damage costs and it's very
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very significant. So in my opinion, what is mean for
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emergency managers is you can't just simplifact check on stop rumors. Honestly,
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I don't. Of course, you have to put out the
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correct information if someone is just saying something blatantly false.
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I agree with that but without providing that kind of
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accurate information, it doesn't just fulfill the underlying need that
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the remor addresses, which is again the need for information
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for the people to have that sense of agency back
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like okay, okay, now I have it. On the contrary,
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I know what is happening. I can maybe predict what
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is going to happen next. So it's not just about
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restoring the a correct information, which is very, very important.
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It is actually restoring a sense of certainty, a sense
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of control, and reassuring people that someone is looking out
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for them. And the restponse has to recognize the fear
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and address the fear behind the question and not just
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correct the claim. That's where I come from.
474
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Yeah, well, I.
475
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Would think Hurricane Helene and the mountainous area of North
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Carolina that that whole messaging failed completely. Yeah, that mountain
477
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was never climbed.
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I don't know.
479
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Well, I use the example of my personal life, okay,
480
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and the number of leadership positions in churches, and I
481
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found that unhappy people's purpose to make other people also unhappy.
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They're outraged or angry about something, they want others to
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also be outraged and angry about what they're outraged about
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so they whether it's it's the rotten apple.
485
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Spoils a barrel or whatever, but it's somewhat contagious.
486
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Yes.
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And the other thing we've seen again again is where
488
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.599
there is an item of truth or fact that has used,
489
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.599
but then that's twisted and that gives that rumor or
490
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:37.519
messaging more. I don't know, you might say agency or yeah, yeah,
491
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:40.519
that's right, that's right because there's a piece of it
492
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.960
people acknowledge and they know that's true, but then it's twisted.
493
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:45.440
Yeah.
494
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:50.400
And you know, trusting government is at an all time
495
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:54.640
low and actually started as amazing President Reagan.
496
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:59.599
You know who you should be afraid of his government?
497
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:03.359
Well it was government, but you know he's instilling fear
498
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:08.359
in his own organization. Yes, yes, I suppose it started
499
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.799
before that. But well, this has been great, Kenny. At
500
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.759
this point, we've reached halfway through at least on.
501
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.279
My schedule of questions.
502
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.839
So we're going to take quick break, folks, and we'll
503
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:24.160
be right back with more on trust and messaging.
504
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:25.319
Thank you.
505
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.400
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at the readiness Slab dot com. Like what you're hearing,
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And we are back today. We're talking about trust in
535
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:24.559
disaster situations with Kenny Edicina and a disaster researcher, especiallyalizing
536
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.840
in the topic of trust. Yeah, another piece that's involved
537
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:35.480
in all this, Kenny, is emotion. And you said emotion
538
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:39.679
the first diagnostic step in crisis communication. I think a
539
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:41.840
lot of times we're not thinking about it as an
540
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:46.239
emotional issue. But however, you say most organizations skip it.
541
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:52.199
Please explain why emotions rule the day in disasters. If
542
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.039
you think about it rationally, that makes sense.
543
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.039
But I don't think we're thinking about emotions.
544
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:02.679
Yeah, we think about facts, right, And I agree with you, Eric,
545
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:07.639
You've identified something very very important. Emotions cannot beyond that
546
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.239
estimate that it cannot be on the emphasise. You have
547
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.280
to talk about it every time because it is what
548
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:20.599
drives so many actions. Thoughts, reactions, and even in actions, right,
549
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.239
And I want to answer that based on my own research,
550
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:26.119
because that is actually what I'm part of the things
551
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.400
I'm focusing on. So I believe and I agree with you.
552
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:34.559
Emotion plays a very very important role in how people
553
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:39.760
receive and respond to crisis communication. But what the research shows,
554
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.519
and what you said is that it's under people just
555
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.920
be like, okay, just give the fact out, you know,
556
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.039
just let them know what's happening, and people are going
557
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:48.639
to deal with it.
558
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:48.960
Now.
559
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:56.880
The research shows that emotion actually is the product of
560
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.480
an appraisal process. And when I mean when I say
561
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.719
a prisoner, I mean before fear fully activated, before people
562
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.880
are angry, before they are anxious. There's a quick, maybe
563
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:13.119
even often subconscious assessment. So people are thinking, is this
564
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.840
situation actually threatening to me? Do I have what it
565
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:21.480
takes to handle it? This appraisal sparks the emotion, so
566
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:28.079
once the emotion kicks in, it really takes control. Unfortunately,
567
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:33.440
as you said, people skip it understanding what anger, understanding
568
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:39.159
that fear, sympathy, and even anxiety have their own unique
569
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.159
qualities and they should not be mixed up. So for example,
570
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.440
right when someone feels anger, They might focus on blame
571
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.239
and resistance because they're angry, right, and explaining things in
572
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.760
detail right then giving them the fact it comes of us, Hello,
573
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.039
you're avoiding the real issue here. It makes things so
574
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:00.639
far like they don't really see They feel like the
575
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.320
organization is not seeing them well. Sympathy, on the other hand,
576
00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.719
it usually inspires us to take action because we want
577
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:12.880
to do something helpful to others. Anxiety it often makes
578
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.440
people seek out information, so they look for fact, they
579
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:19.760
check timelines, and they look for more details to feel
580
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.599
more secure. That sense of agency that we talked about
581
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:27.360
earlier and fear is honestly is the most complex, and
582
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.320
I think I'll get to that and we might talk
583
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.519
about that more in this podcast and in the Nigerian
584
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.039
flows dare that I got at and that study that
585
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:45.599
I mentioned how a study was framed right, how disaster
586
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:48.679
was framed for exact part of me is whether the
587
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:53.800
cause was seen as human or as natural. Right directly
588
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:58.039
influences the emotions that was triggered, so that emotional then
589
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:03.519
guide how people communicated how they behaved. For example, anger
590
00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:07.800
often left to blame a narrative, so while natural attributions
591
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:12.679
part different reactions. But when people are angry, they don't
592
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.840
even hear you anymore, and the more you explain, the
593
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.039
more you are losing them. So understanding this change, understanding
594
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.000
how this works, from how we see the cause to
595
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.679
how people feel and act. Excuse me, it's something that
596
00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:31.559
communicators can really use to make a difference. So to me,
597
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:34.239
the key is to start with the right diagnosis first,
598
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.679
when the thing happened, when the disaster happened, when the
599
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:44.519
crisis happens, before you strapped your statement, before you put
600
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:48.840
that press release, try to identify the emotional core of
601
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.239
the story first. So it may I believe it makes
602
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:58.639
your message more effective, because if you're talking to someone
603
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:03.119
that is angry and you're putting in just explanatory facts,
604
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:08.000
you're losing them the more and you're seen as being avoidance,
605
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:14.960
you're being evasive. But knowing the right communications, tone, language,
606
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:18.719
based on the emotions that people are carrying or that
607
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:22.400
you're having right at the moment, it's very very important.
608
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.519
So again, emotions cannot be on the estimate, they cannot
609
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:28.199
be on the discuss in this kind of conversation.
610
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:33.360
So a couple of times there one is I think
611
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:39.039
unfortunate shoulding to other losses of life that we say
612
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:46.159
in property is destroyed, those organizations with professional communications people
613
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.559
generally now take it up and let's say some sort
614
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.960
of statement about how government or the organization.
615
00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:58.599
Understands the terrible loss.
616
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:03.639
That's happened to the community, and we feel terrible about
617
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:06.280
what has happened, show empathy with with that.
618
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:08.880
Lots. So you start there a lot.
619
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:13.239
I think it was Peter Sandman. I'll send it to you.
620
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.599
He said, you know, so that let's there's been some
621
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:23.119
big event happen and people are up to a point
622
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:27.880
figure blame. And I did this for a flood event
623
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:33.599
in the city of Pacific where the four engineers released
624
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:36.199
too much water at once and costs flooding.
625
00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:37.280
Wow.
626
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.440
And what he said, I briefed the people asked.
627
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:47.920
To moderate this thing. So you had a gymnasium full
628
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:49.920
of three hundred angry people.
629
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.480
Not happy at all.
630
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:56.360
I said, okay, guys, when I got to go in
631
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.000
there and tell him what we did, how we did
632
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.679
it all that, we're going.
633
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:02.320
To let them vent first.
634
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:08.679
Yeah, and it's open my time, come up, say your piece,
635
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.719
because you can get there and tell them all sorts
636
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:13.519
of things about what really happened.
637
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:15.320
But when they're angry, they're not.
638
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.360
Listening, not hearing you at all.
639
00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:19.400
And it's interesting.
640
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:24.559
Po Sandman said, eventually someone we'll get up and say,
641
00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:28.559
shut up, everybody, let's hear what they.
642
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:32.079
Got to say. That happened to a guy in the
643
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.239
front row who was very angry, but he was the
644
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:36.880
guy that said, okay, let's hear.
645
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:40.559
From them at the point that they're going to listen
646
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:41.559
to what you have to say.
647
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:46.519
So I saw that put in a practice in Great.
648
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:47.480
Yeah.
649
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:52.360
Yeah, So you some on the faith.
650
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:58.639
Based organizations and sometimes the fastest and trusted disaster responders
651
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:05.239
and communicators, so they're rarely integrated and the communications planning though,
652
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:09.039
So why are they left out and planning and how
653
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:10.880
incorporated it might help?
654
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.719
Well, this is a very good question, Eric, Thank you
655
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:17.840
for the question, and this really hit close to home
656
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:22.480
because the study I was I was talking about, it's
657
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:29.079
based on the collaborations between what we call it inter organizations.
658
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:34.800
So we have the faith based, we have the government organizations.
659
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.199
That's actually the project that I'm working with with my supervisor,
660
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:43.800
my advisor I mentioned about earlier, and one study that
661
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.960
we worked on, and also it was accepted by the
662
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:55.280
conference agenc IS. We interviewed fifteen faith based organizations in
663
00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:00.920
Oklahoma and that was after a tornado and used a
664
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:05.599
social network analysis to understand the broader disaster response network.
665
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:12.159
And we found that fits based organizations and local churches
666
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:16.519
play key roles, and when I say key, the emphasis
667
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.599
is on key roles. They had some of the highest
668
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:25.400
between the centrality, which means they served as important connectors
669
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:27.599
in the networks. And even if they were not the
670
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:32.679
largest organizations, so they were moving fast because normally they
671
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.000
already have the structure. They are well organized, they have
672
00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:39.840
regular gatherings, they have clear communications channels, and they have
673
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.519
a very very strong relationship with community members who trust
674
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.360
them well before any emergency a writers, so they're familiar
675
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:50.480
with who in the congregation might have a disability, who
676
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:53.760
might need assistance with evaluation. They also even know the
677
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.840
families that maybe language barriers they don't speak English at own,
678
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.400
they speak of the languages or they have all of
679
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:02.119
the different things that should be considered as should be
680
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.519
they should be aware of. So they understand the community's
681
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:09.800
past experience with the government agencies. They know the industries
682
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.079
that is not really rosy and all of this priceless
683
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:17.159
knowledge is not really captured in the big you know,
684
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:24.280
disaster resident disaster communications type of things. So it matters.
685
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:28.679
And that's why I don't understimate the effectiveness or the
686
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:33.840
importance of having the faith based organization as part of
687
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.880
the old disaster response team. So the reason that these
688
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:43.000
groups group get left out, I think is pre layered.
689
00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:47.599
So because former emergency management has historically been careful about
690
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:51.719
relationship with between government and churches, and both sides honestually,
691
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:55.079
I agree they have genin concerns. They respect each other's boundaries.
692
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:59.519
But faith based organizations might they might not have disaster
693
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.719
train so you know, it's okay to become to be
694
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.360
worried that. Okay, we are bringing in experts from this field.
695
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:11.000
These are people that have grown months, years of training
696
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:14.719
to help people during the resisters. But maybe fit organization
697
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.719
or faith based organizations don't have that, or they are
698
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.440
not really part of the emergency management with the networks, and
699
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:27.599
without building that information relationship beforehand, I think both sides
700
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.840
they may feel unsure about how they work together effectively.
701
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.400
So I think that's kind of like the friction they
702
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.719
rift between them. The solution that I think can be
703
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:43.559
using this. I think it's pretty straightforward. Think of faith
704
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:48.320
based organizations as part of the infrastructure and not just
705
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:53.400
as volunteers. Again, everything I listed, they have the structure,
706
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:57.039
they know the people in their community. It helps make
707
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.480
or it makes the work of the you know, the
708
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:04.000
experts or the professional emergency responders makes it easier when
709
00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:06.400
they can talk to someone who knows, Oh there is
710
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.960
someone in this area and this part of town that
711
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.119
have these needs, or there are some people in this
712
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:14.440
part of town that they don't speak English, there are
713
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.239
some people in this part of town that we need
714
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:18.960
mobility access, there are some people in this part of
715
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:21.480
time that we need these or that. So it makes
716
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:25.400
these things straightforward. So I think including them in planning
717
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:28.519
meetings before the disaster or call is very very important.
718
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:33.440
I think it's it's also important to conduct like joint
719
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:38.519
prepared need exercises together to link them to resources ahead
720
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:41.920
of time. So because where you're familiar with each other
721
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:46.960
ahead of time and have collaborated in peaceful moments when
722
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.960
information sharing comes or there is need to share information
723
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:56.800
during the disasters, it makes work smoother for everybody. So
724
00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:00.519
for example, you know, thinking of when you're coming into disaster,
725
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:02.599
you're meeting each other for the first time. You're trying
726
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:04.840
to introduce yourself to each other or this is who
727
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.400
I am and from this organizations it's closed on the
728
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.880
process these are, especially when it comes to crisis and disasters,
729
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:14.519
it's very time conscious. So I think having that pre
730
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:19.400
existing relationship with the faith based organization is very very
731
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.400
important because if you're just introducing yourself to each other
732
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.039
for the first time during the crisis, you already to
733
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:28.119
losing praiseous time that you cannot recover. I mean, that's
734
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.920
that's from the point that I'm coming in. I feel
735
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:35.320
I see fit the organizations as a treasures and assets
736
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:39.039
to disaster communication and crisis and disaster.
737
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:45.239
Respons So another religious term is preaching to the choir
738
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:50.239
that frame, I do think Merphy managers hearing you now
739
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:57.599
say Okay, yeah, no, I agree, But I would expand
740
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:03.800
it on what Kenny said. Yeah, we might incorporate them
741
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:09.840
in the disaster recovery aspect, and we think about their service,
742
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:12.840
but we're not thinking necessarily about their communications side.
743
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:13.480
That's one.
744
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.760
The other thing if you took it to another level
745
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:22.440
and incorporate them into the messaging as part of perhaps
746
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:27.199
not the immediate warning, but rapidly as you're pviding information
747
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:32.239
on what is going on, that they can be part
748
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:36.519
of that messaging process. I think we don't have to
749
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.639
wait for their They can have play a role in
750
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:45.920
messaging in the disaster response, not just additional hand hands
751
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:49.400
getting mud out of homes and feeding people and setting
752
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:51.920
up shelters and that type of thing.
753
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:58.679
So that would be taken it to another level. I think, yeah, Well, I.
754
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:04.079
Recently had a LinkedIn conversations someone about communications failures.
755
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:06.840
And he thought of it as equipment related.
756
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.679
And when you hear about interoperability and the failure to
757
00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:15.360
communications with champans and every exercise, every event that communications
758
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:21.440
has identified, I think has little to do with the
759
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:25.920
equipment side thing, which may be true that they don't interface,
760
00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:30.159
but the bottom line is a fact of trust between
761
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:35.639
organizations that they didn't integrate their communications systems to begin with.
762
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.599
That's that's the essence of the calls of the problem
763
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.400
of interoperability is a lack of trust.
764
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.159
I don't know if you've looked at that or would come.
765
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.639
To me, you're right, I agree with you. You know,
766
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:53.159
sometimes the equipment gets blimed just because it can see
767
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:55.719
it clearly. You can see it easily, right, you can
768
00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:58.639
point to it and say, okay, replace it, you know,
769
00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:03.280
as if we'll showing that you're responding to whatever the
770
00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:04.280
people are talking about.
771
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:04.480
Right.
772
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:08.800
But organization trust, as you said, Eric, is more like
773
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:12.440
an invisible net and because you don't notice it until
774
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:17.639
it's gone, then problems can quickly become overwhelming. So from
775
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:21.480
what I've observed in research and on inter organization and communication,
776
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:25.199
I think the real issue actually developed long before the
777
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:29.679
disaster strike. So often different agencies they haven't established that
778
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:35.480
way of sharing information. They can't each define their roles
779
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:39.519
in different ways, which makes sense, but that actually serves
780
00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:43.039
as a constraint because they may rely on different sources
781
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:46.159
of information. They might not have a clear picture of
782
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:49.159
what the organization next to them can do. So when
783
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:52.840
a major event, of course, and they need to coordinate quickly,
784
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.920
what might seem like a communication breakdown is actually a
785
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.280
deeper trust issue that has been growing over because don't
786
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:03.840
relate with each other. And in social netalk analysis from
787
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:08.079
the previous studies, I've talked about the organizations with the
788
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:12.480
highest connectivity, that's the organizations that are bridging the gaps,
789
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:17.840
are serving us intermediary between these different sectors. Then most
790
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:20.639
of the time are not the biggest agencies. They are
791
00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.480
just there because they were the ones that are build
792
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.480
those strong relationships across different groups over time. And this
793
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:30.599
kind of investment might go or noticed because, you know,
794
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:33.320
before the disaster, you just be like, Okay, maybe there's
795
00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:36.440
no need for it. But when they need for it
796
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.960
in the time of disaster or any crisis event, it
797
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.280
becomes the most important thing. Because if two agencies have
798
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:46.880
difficulty communicating during a disaster, what I'm thinking about is
799
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:50.599
not what went wrong. What I'm asking myself is I've
800
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:54.079
they ever talked to each other before? I've they collaborated before?
801
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:58.480
Do they have any maybe monthly, annual or maybe quarterly
802
00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:01.599
or by annual meeting that they have that he can
803
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:03.840
get on the same table and be like, Okay, this
804
00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.159
is what I have, that is what you have. This
805
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:08.480
is where we can collaborate. Okay, I don't have this.
806
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:10.679
You can give it to me, I can give it
807
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:15.360
to you. You know, just collaboration actually helps. But so
808
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:19.280
I you know, people can think of, Okay, the equipment
809
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:23.119
is the main thing, but I agree with you. Eric
810
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.280
is trust and that pre existing relationship really matters.
811
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:32.800
And folks, if you ever go to exercises the real
812
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:37.679
events and you know we have dancer and command system
813
00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:41.760
being mandated or grants and that everyone will say, yes,
814
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:46.199
we've established unified command. And then you go look at
815
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:50.280
it and the police are in their mobile command dihcle
816
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:52.719
the fires and their mobile command vehicle.
817
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:53.960
Public work is over.
818
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:58.840
And there I saw during the World Trade Organization riots,
819
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:05.760
the Washington State has it's called Washington State Patrols, state police.
820
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:08.599
Okay, they were at.
821
00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:14.199
The uh Sale Police Operations Center, but they were in
822
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:14.960
a separate room.
823
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.159
M you can say they're there, but they weren't together.
824
00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:22.119
Yeah, yeah, in their own world. And that's the thing.
825
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:26.559
They have to be able to communicate together, to share information,
826
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:30.920
share intelligence, and that that's what makes crisis response on
827
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:33.320
brazilily actually you know better.
828
00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:40.599
Yeah, And I remember regular line cops and in King
829
00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:45.400
County Sheriff's office and I had fulls alliance with them,
830
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:48.840
talking about the state patrolea their traffic enforcement people, you
831
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:54.039
know the meaning who they are be very cultural.
832
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:56.679
So moving on here.
833
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:02.559
Emergency managers and others sometimes used to provoke people to
834
00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:07.000
take individual, individual actions to protect their will being standard
835
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:13.199
one uses. And here Marshall said, you're talking about mandatory evacuations,
836
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.239
but you can't force someone leave their house.
837
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:17.400
So I'm not going to leave.
838
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:20.960
Okay, Well give me your write, your social security name
839
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:22.679
and number on your arm.
840
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:25.199
You know there's a way it's you know you don't.
841
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.000
We need to be able to find your body type.
842
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:34.199
What if you found that worked better to take protective actions?
843
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:36.880
And I'm betting you're going to get back to the
844
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:37.440
answer of.
845
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:41.880
Trust, But you're right, I will bring you back to trust.
846
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:44.760
But that's genuinely where the evidence leads to, honestly like
847
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.960
based on the research and know. But giving you a
848
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.480
brief introduction. So in theory of communications, something we call
849
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.920
protection motivation theory, right, and that's from Roadia's in the
850
00:54:55.280 --> 00:54:59.320
think in the seventies. It was initially created to understand
851
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.559
health bea viewers, but I think it's also valuable insight
852
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:06.639
into disaster communication. So the theory explains that a person's
853
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:10.480
decision to take protective action is influenced influenced by two
854
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:14.760
simultaneous mental assessments that happening at the same time. So
855
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.800
the first and I think I mentioned that before. Is
856
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.519
threat appraisal, How serious is this threat and how vulnerable
857
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:26.920
I am? I to excuse me. The second is coping appraisal.
858
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.079
How can I actually do what's being recommended? We need
859
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:34.519
to work so using fear of fear appeals as we
860
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:38.719
call it in communications in crisis communication research, it operates
861
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:43.840
on threat appraisal. So they raised perceived severity, you know,
862
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:50.039
perceived excuse me, perceived vulnerability, and that can be useful
863
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:56.039
because it gets attention. But this protection motivation theory is
864
00:55:56.320 --> 00:56:00.760
very clear that high threat appraisal alone is not sufficient
865
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:04.280
to produce protective behavior. You can just say, okay, you
866
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.480
raise the threat and everybody is scared, and you think
867
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:10.039
they're gonna act on it. It's at the other end
868
00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:13.159
it's going to bad fire sometimes. So if someone copying
869
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:16.840
appraiser is low, they don't believe they can evaluate, evacuate
870
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:19.480
whatever you tell them to do. They don't have the
871
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:23.559
transportation to evacuate, or they don't even trust the recommended
872
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.760
action that is being given. The fear does not translate
873
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:32.000
into action. It produces helplessness, avoidance, or they just resist.
874
00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:33.519
They'll be like, you know what I give up, I
875
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.280
can't even do anything about it anyways, right, So, and
876
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.360
that's where I put the layer. So in my study
877
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:43.079
that I'm working on, after someone receives an official war
878
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.199
in and then begins to process it emotionally, they don't
879
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:48.920
see along with that information, they reach out to their network,
880
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:53.079
maybe their family member, their neighbor, someone from their church,
881
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:56.639
someone in the group chat or something. So that contact
882
00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:01.519
message either reinforces the threat that has been perceived or
883
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:05.559
it contradicts it. Right, and whether it reinforces or contradict
884
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:08.400
depends on the great deal of nature of the relational
885
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:11.239
bond that they have with the person. So if for example,
886
00:57:11.239 --> 00:57:15.920
a close family member carries a normative pressure that an
887
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:21.679
official agency cannot replicate, then a trusted neighbor or a
888
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:25.159
trusted leader for example a FAIFTH leader, they can validate
889
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:29.079
the guidiance and convert fear into compliance because of the
890
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:32.480
influence and the kind of relationship they have with a person.
891
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:35.239
And for example, a neighbor who says well I'm not
892
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.679
living it's fine. That means even if the government or
893
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:41.039
the official message and is saying well you have to
894
00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:43.320
live now, but the neighbor is saying, well, I'm not living.
895
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:45.920
I've seen these times and times before and it doesn't
896
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:48.960
really get that. You know, maybe that crazy or that
897
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:52.280
dangerous as the government is putting it, then that may
898
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:55.679
produce active resistance even when the fear was actually built.
899
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:01.800
So fear appeal only no trust is is very, very
900
00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:06.960
very important. So what works is not again not just
901
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:10.199
putting out frightening messages, not just say okay, you're you're
902
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:13.679
gonna die or okay, this is gonna affect you. I
903
00:58:13.679 --> 00:58:19.039
think what works is trusted messengers. They're already embedded in
904
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:23.519
those people's relational networks, so people can validate the guidance
905
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:27.840
in a context where okay, I can't believe it. So
906
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:30.400
you don't just say okay, you're putting out the fear
907
00:58:30.679 --> 00:58:33.599
fear of fear mong green messages. For the lack of
908
00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:38.920
better term, I think you should build networks before the disaster.
909
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:43.480
Build it. It's just not random networks, trusted networks that
910
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:46.599
you know, if my message gets to this person, they
911
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:50.559
can positively influence the receiver of the message or the
912
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:56.039
recipients and actually take protective actions. So fear is useful
913
00:58:56.079 --> 00:58:59.280
to get people's attention, but I think trust is what
914
00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:01.039
determines what they're going to do with it.
915
00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:07.880
Yeah, And a lot of times those people of influence
916
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:15.840
hold no positions. They just in society values elders those
917
00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:20.280
people and not just from a tribal standpoint or anything
918
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:24.239
like that, just someone the respected person in the community. Yes,
919
00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:28.760
that other people go to for advice and because based
920
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:33.039
on their wisdom that they exhibited that those are the
921
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:35.320
messengers you're talking about.
922
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.559
That I agree with you, Yes, yes, okay.
923
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:45.159
Well, very interestingly, there's a twenty twenty six World Disasters
924
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:49.920
Report frames this trust issue as a defining challenge of
925
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.679
the moment, and this is the International Federation of Red
926
00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:59.519
Cross Red Crescent Societies publish their World Disasters Report this
927
01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:04.159
you're under the title, and this fits well with our
928
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:07.719
discussion today. So the title of that report is truth,
929
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:13.159
Trust and Humanitary Action and the Age of Harmful Information.
930
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:16.199
I mean, that doesn't summarize where we are.
931
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:17.559
Nothing does.
932
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:22.199
So given that idea and the concept of fostering trusts
933
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:26.000
that we've talked to, and what what should emergency managers
934
01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:30.000
others be doing before a disaster and during disaster response
935
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:36.159
giving Now we're surrounded really by much more mistrust than trust.
936
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.639
Ever yes, yes, and thank you for bringing it out
937
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:45.199
up and for the listeners. As you said, this is
938
01:00:45.239 --> 01:00:49.239
the world's largest humanitarian network. And when you're saying trust
939
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:53.239
is now an operational variable, when you're saying, okay, this
940
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:56.599
is something that determines whether response and recovery actually function
941
01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:01.960
is it is a very It's not not like okay, yes,
942
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:04.559
what we are talking about. We are not just blabbling
943
01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:06.840
or something with This is actually the real thing that
944
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:11.400
is happening. And to me, the practical implication for before
945
01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:19.000
a disaster is for disaster my emergency managers or responders.
946
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:23.800
I think you should map your trust networks first, and
947
01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:29.159
you should market honestly, so find out which population trust
948
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:33.599
official sources, which populations don't. It's not because you want
949
01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:36.599
to criticize them or anything, but it just it helps
950
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:39.840
you when you're putting on your message. I understand why
951
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:44.159
those that do not trust those officient sources or official information,
952
01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:49.360
why don't they trust it? You know that excess go ahead.
953
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:52.400
I would think emergency managers could go to the social
954
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:57.079
services agencies MHM help map that out.
955
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.800
Yes, yes, that's very, very important, and this kind of
956
01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:07.039
exercise is again I agree. Sometimes it doesn't feel comfortable, right,
957
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:09.599
because how do you want to confront someone that you know, Okay,
958
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.760
they definitely don't trust what I'm saying, right, But it's
959
01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:17.360
good and it's a good exercise to understand why people
960
01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:20.000
do what they do and why don't they do it
961
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:24.320
and the other way, especially when it's just when you're
962
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.960
looking at it, you'll be like, Okay, why you got
963
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:29.559
in information? This is going to detrimental to your health,
964
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:31.760
This is going to affect you. But people still don't
965
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.800
take action. So it might feel uncomfortable, but it's very
966
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:40.239
necessary because investing in relationships with as I said, faith
967
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:45.679
based organizations, community nonprofits, the social services, as Eric mentioned,
968
01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:51.119
all these trusted community figures during the normal times and
969
01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:55.159
when things are pretty peaceful and there's no crisis, it's
970
01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:58.239
very important than doing that when the stoma is just
971
01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:01.840
two days out, because everybody's already rambling around trying to
972
01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:07.039
get you know, resources. Developing these shared communication protocols, I
973
01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:13.239
think it's helps reduce it doesn't It might not one
974
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:17.800
hundred percent remove the pressure, but you reduce it, you know, significantly,
975
01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:22.320
And the coordination works should not start when they even start,
976
01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:26.880
and during a disaster get something out early, even when
977
01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:29.039
it's incomplete. Hey, this is what we know now. As
978
01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:31.239
I said before, this is what we know now, this
979
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:33.159
is what we are doing now, this is what you
980
01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:35.360
can do to help yourself. But we'll get back to
981
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:37.519
you as soon as we have any other new update
982
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:42.480
or anything. So people know that, Okay, these people or
983
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:46.440
these organizations, this emergency manager, they have our best interest
984
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:49.239
in heart. They are communicating as transparent as possible as
985
01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:53.519
they can. They are giving timelines or when the next
986
01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:58.519
update is coming. And also you're using your rebuild trusted messengers,
987
01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:01.000
right people you know, Okay, they are in the community,
988
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:03.679
they're embedded in the community, and they can help you
989
01:04:03.719 --> 01:04:09.559
get messages out convincingly quickly. Right, So all of these sorry,
990
01:04:09.559 --> 01:04:09.880
go ahead.
991
01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:10.599
Yeah.
992
01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:12.880
I would think that network would also help you with
993
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:16.480
rumor control to know, yes, what's being said.
994
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:19.159
Out there that you need to get facts out.
995
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:22.639
About exactly exactly, because it's a two way thing. It's
996
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:25.000
not just you giving them information. You're sharing with each
997
01:04:25.079 --> 01:04:27.679
other and you're getting Okay, this is what is out there.
998
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:30.039
Because you can be in multiple places at the same time.
999
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:32.239
But if you communicate with all these people that are
1000
01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:35.400
on boots on the ground, they give your feedback, and
1001
01:04:35.480 --> 01:04:39.239
as Erica just said, you can quickly correct information and
1002
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:43.119
put out the you know, correct information, accurate information because
1003
01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:48.000
before by the time before narrative has spread widely, correcting
1004
01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:53.440
it requires more more efforts than addressing it early. Would
1005
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:57.239
I mean, so you want to put it out first, Okay.
1006
01:04:57.920 --> 01:05:04.400
Well, Unfortunately, communities that need dis answer communication most are
1007
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:10.519
often the ones that trusts official sources least, and that
1008
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:12.559
gap doesn't close during.
1009
01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:15.519
A crisis that it, likeli would widen.
1010
01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:19.880
And I'm just thinking about, Oh, here in the United States,
1011
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:24.000
we're developing a real divide ince socio economic well being.
1012
01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:29.840
For years, we talked about having actually an underclass, you know,
1013
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:36.960
we talked about the very rich having the majority of wealth.
1014
01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:43.199
And then the people are doing very well. I mean most.
1015
01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:45.519
People say they're rich, but they're not this ultra which
1016
01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:47.079
and then.
1017
01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:51.559
Yeah, people who are economically secure. And then you have
1018
01:05:51.639 --> 01:05:54.880
the middle class maybe in portions of that, and people
1019
01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:57.559
put them in the middle put themselves in a middle
1020
01:05:57.559 --> 01:06:02.480
class maybe when they even aren't in the middle class economically.
1021
01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:06.000
And then yeah, people who are just surviving day to
1022
01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:11.039
day and try and decide whether it's a prescription medicine.
1023
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:12.960
Or buying food deal and that type of thing.
1024
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:19.119
So what we do now first steps to trust building
1025
01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:24.599
and our style for communicating and this answer when many
1026
01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:27.639
people are predisposed not to trust us based on their
1027
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:31.679
experience with government.
1028
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:34.679
I think, I think, thank you for the question, Eric.
1029
01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:37.760
I think the first thing we can do is honesty
1030
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:42.239
is the first. The trust deficits in these communities are
1031
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:46.280
in many communities. Most times it's not a messaging problem
1032
01:06:46.519 --> 01:06:49.239
you're putting on a message, right, but it was. It
1033
01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:53.360
was built through real experience because you know, based on
1034
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:59.159
videos of responses in equitable resource distribution being spoken at
1035
01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:02.320
rather than least into. People want to be listened to
1036
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:05.159
and heard and they know that, okay, you care about me.
1037
01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:10.280
So it closes the same way it opened slowly, because
1038
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:14.599
when you're trying to fix things, things get really bad quickly.
1039
01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:19.639
Fixing takes longer, right, So when you're listening to me
1040
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:22.079
right now, know that it's going to take time. So
1041
01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:26.760
you're building it slowly through sustained presence and you're demonstrating
1042
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:31.400
accountability over time. So the first time step is to
1043
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:37.320
have what I call an honest audit, so which populations
1044
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:42.079
are you not reaching What is the reason? Does it
1045
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:46.280
have to do with technology? And even ask who they
1046
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:48.679
are actually listening to, because if you're not listening to,
1047
01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:52.519
you rest assured they are listening to someone else. So
1048
01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:57.639
ask who they are listening to. And in most communities
1049
01:07:57.719 --> 01:07:59.840
there's a real answer to that question. That's why I believe.
1050
01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:03.199
And those people are your entry points. So who they
1051
01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:05.800
are listening to are the once you want to talk to,
1052
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:10.360
want to build relationship with, and because you cannot just
1053
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:15.239
build relationship or trust by speaking to them through channels
1054
01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.880
that they don't trust, we already know like, okay, there
1055
01:08:17.920 --> 01:08:23.279
is this downward spiral in the trust of government agencies.
1056
01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:26.720
And if you're still using the same mechanism to communicate,
1057
01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:29.640
they're definitely no one is going to hear you. But
1058
01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:31.760
reach out to people that they trust, that they believe
1059
01:08:31.800 --> 01:08:36.119
in from relationship, get through to them to the public
1060
01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:38.640
through those people that they trust, and from there you
1061
01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:42.960
can build the channels where people already can hear you
1062
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:46.199
because they can hear you through those channels that they trust.
1063
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:49.000
And one of the things that my current research as
1064
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:52.199
to that is that people don't just process official messages
1065
01:08:52.319 --> 01:08:56.279
in isolation. After they receive a warning, they turn to
1066
01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:59.760
their networks, families. As we said before, neighbors, community leaders.
1067
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:01.640
I don't want to sound like a broken radio here,
1068
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:03.920
but I just feel like it's very, very important that
1069
01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:07.199
this group that they belong to, all these networks that
1070
01:09:07.239 --> 01:09:11.520
they have contacts, they don't just pass information along. They
1071
01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:16.680
interpret it, they validated, or they take away from it.
1072
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:19.600
So they tell you whether to act on it. Whether
1073
01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:23.279
you know, the strength of that influence actually depends on
1074
01:09:23.319 --> 01:09:27.439
the relational bond that they have with each other. It's
1075
01:09:27.479 --> 01:09:30.720
not just the official messaging that is from the official
1076
01:09:30.920 --> 01:09:34.399
or source or the authorities. So what that means practically
1077
01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:38.560
is that excuse me, emergency managers who are only working
1078
01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:42.960
on official message and treating the social networkers background noise,
1079
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:48.319
they are not addressing the main problem. Or I would say,
1080
01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:50.439
even if they are addressing the public, it's just a
1081
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:53.720
portion of the communication problem or of the public that
1082
01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:58.279
they are addressing. The network. These people that they have
1083
01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:02.760
very strong relation with and that they listening to, that
1084
01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:05.279
they trust, are the ones that are part or that
1085
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:08.560
should be part of the communications system. So it needs
1086
01:10:08.600 --> 01:10:11.479
to be in your strategy. You're part of your strategy
1087
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:14.680
to communicate, to have a relationship with these people so
1088
01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:17.840
you can get your message across to the public through them,
1089
01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:21.680
and largely building trust with communities that have reason to
1090
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:27.399
be skeptical. It requires presents during non emergency period. You
1091
01:10:27.439 --> 01:10:30.119
can just show up when there is an ergency, right,
1092
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:34.279
you can just share flyers. Right. You have to be
1093
01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:37.880
their boots underground, actually showing up at the gatherings that
1094
01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:42.000
matter to these people in their normal lives. And the
1095
01:10:42.079 --> 01:10:45.239
United States is a nation of well, English is the
1096
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:49.399
official language. Everybody speaks English, but not everybody still speaks English, right,
1097
01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:52.520
so you want to have it also in different languages.
1098
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:58.800
Multilingual communication and not just translation. Is communications multilingually or
1099
01:10:58.920 --> 01:11:01.800
multiingual Wise, is different from just okay, I translate what
1100
01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:05.399
I have whatever I have in English to another language.
1101
01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:08.239
You want to communicate to them in that language in
1102
01:11:08.279 --> 01:11:12.960
the nuance that they understand and the same message of
1103
01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:16.880
the risk is being passed across to them, and they
1104
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:22.439
understand you. The start building that trust with you because
1105
01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:25.159
they've seen you times and times again when they don't
1106
01:11:25.159 --> 01:11:28.119
even have problems where they don't you know, they're not scared,
1107
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:32.319
they are just you know, pretty calm, pretty cool. Then
1108
01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:35.760
when they the time comes that okay, everybody is scared.
1109
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:38.600
There is anger, There is anxiety going on because you're
1110
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:41.520
a familiar face and it trusted one. They can relate
1111
01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:45.399
with you. And so I think it requires that you
1112
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:50.199
have the cultural knowledge of these people, especially the ones
1113
01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:52.399
that do not do the things, all that do not
1114
01:11:52.560 --> 01:11:56.359
trust you, and not just at the stage that you
1115
01:11:56.399 --> 01:11:59.000
need them at the disaster stage, but you want to
1116
01:11:59.039 --> 01:12:01.039
have it prior to the disaster.
1117
01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:04.720
Well.
1118
01:12:05.359 --> 01:12:11.000
The reason I was attracted to this topic is I've
1119
01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:16.119
looked at trust for a long time. My deal is
1120
01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:18.960
I worked at Launch a state emergency manager five years
1121
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:22.479
and I went to King County Emergency Manage.
1122
01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:23.520
I was there eleven years.
1123
01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:26.079
I found out I was there, I said, no one
1124
01:12:27.039 --> 01:12:31.359
trusted King County government. They had screwed over the thirty
1125
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:38.319
nine cities, one hundred and sixty eight different jurisdictions, political jurisdictions.
1126
01:12:38.399 --> 01:12:42.199
Numerous times. I went to a trust workshop.
1127
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:45.239
You know, one of these things offered one hundred dollars
1128
01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:48.399
for a half day, and it's rare you go to
1129
01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:50.960
anything and remember what they said. But the thing that
1130
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:55.239
I came away with was I've said this many times before,
1131
01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:57.479
but I would say it here because it's the topic
1132
01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:02.119
is trust is. You don't develop trust between organizations. You
1133
01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:06.680
developed trust between individuals. So if you say I need
1134
01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:10.720
to find we need a better relationship with city or
1135
01:13:11.000 --> 01:13:15.760
organization X, it starts with you reaching out developing trust
1136
01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:21.640
with the individual person there. And if there's distrust that
1137
01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:27.000
exists before that, it's an uphill battle. And what I
1138
01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:31.199
found is providing information. I just became an information source.
1139
01:13:31.279 --> 01:13:35.439
Anything I knew, I shared it, I gave it away,
1140
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:40.640
and so people weren't necessarily telling me anything. But information
1141
01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:43.239
is power. And I'd say, this is what's the latest
1142
01:13:43.279 --> 01:13:44.199
grant news.
1143
01:13:44.039 --> 01:13:47.359
Is this is how you can apply all that's that
1144
01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:54.199
And it takes a while to break down those thereriers.
1145
01:13:54.279 --> 01:13:58.079
And there's one instance why I knew I achieved success.
1146
01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:02.520
We were working on a regional disaster plan where other
1147
01:14:02.680 --> 01:14:06.239
cities and we had the private sector of the Boeing Corporation,
1148
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:13.039
Bank of America, Starbucks, Microsoft, they had signed on to
1149
01:14:13.159 --> 01:14:17.239
this thing as public private organizations. And we are having
1150
01:14:17.319 --> 01:14:21.359
actually the city of Burian, I'll have a city managers meeting.
1151
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:22.920
The city manager for.
1152
01:14:23.079 --> 01:14:26.640
Burian got up and he went on a rant on
1153
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:33.399
how you cannot trust King County, which okay, proven themselves untrustworthy,
1154
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.960
but the others, and I'm there the other city managers
1155
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:40.520
came to my defense saying, yes, that's true, but that's
1156
01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:41.640
not this.
1157
01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:44.159
This is a good thing Eric is bringing to us.
1158
01:14:44.560 --> 01:14:47.840
And I knew, at least for a short period of time,
1159
01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:54.239
won one battle there and unfortunately this whole trusting I
1160
01:14:54.319 --> 01:14:58.960
call it missionary work because people and organizations turn over
1161
01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:03.119
and leadership all the time, because start all over again.
1162
01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:09.159
Yes we trust, Yes, Well, this has been great. Kenny,
1163
01:15:09.319 --> 01:15:11.479
and I want to say thanks to Kenny v C
1164
01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:15.119
for being a guest here on the Disasters Own podcast.
1165
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:19.000
Thank you, And I want I.
1166
01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:21.359
Want you to sign off and say something in Chinese.
1167
01:15:22.479 --> 01:15:23.520
Okay, uh.
1168
01:15:27.159 --> 01:15:27.479
You can.
1169
01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:30.399
You can make it about trust or anything, but there
1170
01:15:30.439 --> 01:15:33.439
may be some Chinese people listening, so make it good.
1171
01:15:33.920 --> 01:15:37.840
Okay. Well I'm first stay in Chinese and I'll say
1172
01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:42.399
it in English, so you know what. Well, thank you
1173
01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:49.920
very much. So hang guns yea to the podcast. Uh,
1174
01:15:50.039 --> 01:15:56.560
well say I'm going to sure share y'all. Rug we go,
1175
01:15:57.000 --> 01:15:59.399
don't forgo Yahoo? Do you go?
1176
01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:00.159
Uh?
1177
01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:05.520
The private organization? Darn it? You go your hown Needle
1178
01:16:07.479 --> 01:16:21.479
Needle enjoy your how Needle ganjo about talmentent fans. She
1179
01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:33.720
a b Sido since China, China Melia poetry. And what
1180
01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:38.039
I just said is thank you for inviting me to
1181
01:16:38.119 --> 01:16:41.359
this podcast. I'm happy to be here. And that as
1182
01:16:41.399 --> 01:16:45.079
a private organization or as a government, uh, the very
1183
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.399
important thing is to have a trust relationship with your
1184
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:51.880
public or with your audience, because when they know you
1185
01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:56.279
share information with them, they know that you care about them.
1186
01:16:57.039 --> 01:17:00.640
They they this fosters this strong relationship that you need
1187
01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:03.239
to help with them. So in terms of disaster you
1188
01:17:03.359 --> 01:17:07.960
can easily communicate and again building trust and making everybody
1189
01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:12.520
just making everywhere safer, everywhere peaceful, and for starting a
1190
01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:13.359
better community.
1191
01:17:14.680 --> 01:17:19.039
Okay, for all those Chinese listeners to the disasters on podcasts,
1192
01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:24.439
this is a first now reminder to everyone be safe.
1193
01:17:24.520 --> 01:17:27.359
Think about what you can do today to become personally
1194
01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:31.960
better prepared for the next disaster and includes building trust
1195
01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:37.439
and using trust attributes in your communications. If you like
1196
01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:40.119
this Disaster Zone podcast, please share a link to it
1197
01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:41.680
with your social media context.
1198
01:17:42.359 --> 01:17:44.760
Thanks for listening and be safe.
1199
01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:45.840
Thank you