Incorporating Traffic Management into Your Disaster Planning

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Welcome to the Disaster Zone Podcast. I'm Eric Holdeman, your
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Disaster Zone host. And with me today is Tom Pratt,
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Senior Vice President, Operations for AWP Safety.
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And we're going to be talking.
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About planning for traffic management before a disaster strikes.
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Welcome to the podcast, Tom.
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Good to be here.
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And Tom, we always ask who's going to win the
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Ohio and Michigan games, since.
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You're out there in Ann Arbor. Ohio seems to be
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in the role.
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Yeah, but my wife is born and raised in Columbus, Ohio,
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so that's a family issue there.
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Okay, and actually the first question I always ask is
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about people's careers kind of setting Who are you?
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Where did you come from? What do you know?
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So what is your educational background and your personal and
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professional work experiences that you've had up until today?
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Electrical engineering degree back in the early 80s, educationally. And
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then in the 2000s, I earned a master's degree in
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organizational leadership from Purdue University. From a work experience perspective,
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I'm primarily a utility person. Five years in robotics and
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I moved into utilities. I spent the better part of
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a decade or more in a nuclear power plant in
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Michigan working on the engineering side of the house. And
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then I did several more decades in what's called the
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distribution side of the business. That's the poles and wire
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side of the business to the customers. ascending ranks the
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last decade of my career, vice president in a company
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called Indiana Michigan Power for American Electric Power, another five
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years in AEP Ohio as a vice president, and then
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with AWP safety for the past couple of years working
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in traffic control. Okay.
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All right. So why is traffic management a critical but
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unrecognized component of emergency response?
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Well, in its basic premise, we save lives. If you
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think about emergency response, whether you're an electrical lineman or
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whether you're a tree removal specialist or whether you work
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in roads with small towns, their job is to go
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safely remove a tree or safely put up a wire.
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Our job is to protect people. And it's critical because
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we have to have the backs and control all the
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traffic around folks that are doing the work to protect
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them while they work safely.
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Okay.
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And there is this close connection between public and private
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organizations to accomplish what you're So how does it directly
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impact first responder safety and emergency access?
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Well, essentially, we become gatekeepers. Who's allowed in, who's allowed out,
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what their speed is in a vehicle when they're inside.
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Even walking pedestrians, our job is to be the gatekeeper
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to allow or disallow people to walk through an area
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that may have energized wires on the ground. So if
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a disaster relief or recovery effort is small, let's say
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a small town, they may have the barricades and some
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of their own people to go out and to sort
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of cordon off an area and keep traffic out. If
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you get into any significantly larger event where local folks
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just don't have the capability to do that much control,
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that's where we just mobilize, come in, work with the
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local folks there, where's the damage, and we will take
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care of setting everything up and managing anyone who's not
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supposed to be in an area and making sure that
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area stays safe.
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You know, earlier in that response, you talked about something.
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You know, sometimes I don't have just first responders, but
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interested citizens or residents who tune into the podcast.
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And you mentioned about downed lines that may be live.
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And we have had, in my.
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Experiences, for disasters directly is in Washington State. We've had
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plenty of windstorms and ice storms. And The power lines
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go down. And unfortunately, there was a guy walking his dog.
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He did not step on a line. He just was
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in close proximity to a downed line with the ground
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being wet.
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It was energized.
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And he and his dog unfortunately died via electrocution.
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And the other thing I've told parents is, Right after
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a storm is not a good time to let your
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teenagers go out roaming around because they also are not
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aware of all the hazards.
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Any thoughts on that?
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Well, coming out of the utility business and especially that side,
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I think all the public service announcements are dead on.
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Stay away from any line that's down. It may not work.
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It may not look like there's any electricity flowing to it,
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but in fact, everyone needs to be treated as live.
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In fact, if you think about it, you look up
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at a pole and you see wires up on a pole.
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You don't really know if there's electricity flowing through it
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or not. You can't see it. So stay away from
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all downed power lines. And that's part of our charge
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at AWP Safety is keeping sufficient distance And it's not
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three feet or five feet. We're talking hundreds of feet
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away from being anywhere near any type of down line.
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Okay.
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Since I'm on a public safety role here, and we'll
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get back to the main topic here in a second,
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but just two days ago, I bought a home generator
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to use when the power goes out. And on, I
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think it's next Tuesday morning, I've got an electrical contractor
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coming out to put I asked for a GenTrans.
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Switch, which I've had in the past, allows you to.
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Connect a generator and then spread power throughout the house.
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But they are going to install, I think they call
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it interlock device, which.
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Does the same thing.
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And the importance of that is, folks, if you buy
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an electrical generator, you need to seal it off from
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sending power back down the line.
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Explain what the hazard is there.
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Well, here's the thing. If the power flowing into your
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house is uninhibited, if you will, comes through a breaker box,
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if you have a generator connected and the power, you
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see the line to your house falls down, okay, or
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stays connected to the larger power lines, if you don't
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have a switch in there, that generator will not only
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power your house, but will push power the opposite direction
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back onto the power lines. And in fact, you're energizing
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your neighborhood and wherever the wires are down, you could
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potentially be creating a 12 or 35,000 volt hazard just
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going the opposite direction. Power doesn't know which way it flows.
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It's like water, it just flows wherever the hose is open.
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I wish I had 12,000 volts of power. I'll only
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have 6,500 or max power. But thanks for that. We
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want to make sure the linemen and other people out
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there who think the power is out don't somehow come
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in contact with the live wire because our home generator
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is sending power out beyond our home. So what, kind
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of more back on top, what are leading agency, agencies
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who are being proactive doing this? integrate this traffic planning
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into storm preparedness?
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I'm going to say that needs a lot more maturity.
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That's a nice way of saying that it doesn't happen
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often enough right now. Typically, The local jurisdictions, if you
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have hurricanes or large scale evacuations or something to that nature,
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they're really looking at and focusing on what are all
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the workers that I need in this area to cut
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the trees down, to get them out of the roads,
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to get the debris off the roads. If it's storms, snow,
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it's getting the snow off the roads. They're getting power
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lines back up or getting.
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the.
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Gas lines repaired, and the focus primarily is on how
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do we get the workers in to do all this work.
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There's very little thought put into how do we bring
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in a contingent of workers to help protect those folks
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that are doing the work. That mostly is left to
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the companies that come into an area, say a large
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electrical overhead contractor. It's largely left to them. You guys
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take care of that. A large tree contractor in Asplen
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works all over the U.S., And they say, Asplen, come
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do this work for us. It is the Asplen or
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the Pike Electric or there's so many electrical contractors that
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are left to say, we know that we need a
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traffic control and we're going to call out and try
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to get traffic control resources around us to protect us.
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Okay.
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And, you know, what you're talking about there, there can
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be literally thousands of you know, line electrical workers flowing
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into a region. If it's a hurricane and you're able
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to pre-stage resources, they'll be coming in days beforehand. They'll
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be staying in hotels, motels with the trucks parked outside.
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And once the storm passes, then they're set up to
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start working. What you're talking about is that integration into
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the road network and.
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Who's going where and how that happens.
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It doesn't necessarily happen in a pre-planned process.
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That's right. Sometimes folks that are traveling that do this frequently,
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that do a lot of storm work, they know they
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want traffic control providers coming along with them, and they'll
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call ahead and say, hey, can you meet us down there?
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But majority of the time, it is... folks mobilizing and
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getting down there, and we are calling them and saying, hey,
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you're going to need traffic control. And usually it's an, oh, yeah,
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that's a good point. And we sort of come in
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mostly after the fact, but some are pretty good at
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getting us there before the fact. And we run their
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base camps for them. It's another skill we have. So
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you have thousands of trucks of people showing up, and
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all that has to be managed as well. And you
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usually recognize you need that on the spot and you're
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quickly trying to spend eight, 10, 12 hours to bring
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those resources in when you can have them early.
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Well, you mentioned that whole base camp effort. All those
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trucks have to be fueled. All those people have to
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be fed. All those people need a place to sleep.
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So when you're talking about having a base camp management,
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that's also critically important.
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So for this traffic management.
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At what level is that either macro or micro planning
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best accomplishes at state level? Is it at the local
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level or is it a combination of both and does
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the state need to direct it?
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What have you seen that works there?
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Well, I can tell you how it works now. I
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think there's a better way to do that. But how
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it typically works now is all the recovery efforts get
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sort of pushed out to local jurisdictions. So, you know,
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Florida has seen its share of hurricanes over the years.
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And so I use them as an example. When you
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bring resources in, you probably have 10 different base camp
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areas that you're working out of, you know, around Florida.
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And maybe, you know, anywhere from dozens to hundreds of
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crews that kind of operate out of that little base
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camp jurisdiction area. And really, the traffic control gets pushed
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way down to sort of that local jurisdiction. So the
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person running that small part of the storm effort says, oh, boy,
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we need traffic control. here. And so what they do
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is they call out for resources and ends up being
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an amalgamation of maybe for those 10 camps, 10 different
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requests for resources within each area. It generally does not
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get managed at an incident command level or at a
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state level. It just doesn't.
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Yeah. I guess you're describing a piecemeal effort.
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It is.
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I mean, you know, and here's the thing. It's something
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it's developed into and it works. It sometimes works inefficiently
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and sometimes you're going to work without the traffic control
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that you need and you live without it. But I
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would argue that it's a hedge on safety when you're
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working in an area without traffic control protection because of
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the simple fact that when there's damage, Folks want to
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get out and see it. They want to get out
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and take pictures of it. They want to get to
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their own homes, and they're impatient, and they drive around
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people who are working thinking they're doing it safely, and
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they are not. So it adds risk when you don't
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recognize at the very beginning that not only do you
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have to have the workers, but you need to protect
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the workers as well, and that's what our specialty is.
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And, you know, we talked about hurricanes where you can
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pre-plan this, but this year, as I've watched the national news,
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just about every night, there's a severe weather event that's
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happened somewhere in the Midwest that perhaps was predicted somewhat,
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but really sprung on local authorities.
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There's been some derecho events straight wind.
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Events that reached 100 miles an hour, which is, you know,
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hurricane force winds started at 70, that caused tremendous damage,
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and there was no forecasting that, you know, it would
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be anything other than maybe a severe thunderstorm that they
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might occasionally have every year. So if you have this
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spontaneous event in an area that's not a hurricane zone
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or Tornado Alley, is it still possible to do, if
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you will, an immediate request for traffic management and have
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that come help?
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So the short answer is yes, with a question mark.
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So the utilities across the U.S. belong to different what's
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called mutual aid agreements. Those are all sort of papered
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up and have been for years. And what you can
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do is get on a, like Gary, Indiana is one
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that got hit with a derecho, right? And so if
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you're in that area, you just get on a mutual
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aid call. There are multiple dozens of representatives on that
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call and you're like, I need 400 crews. And within
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two hours, you know where all those crews are coming from,
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they mobilize, it's a really great, well-oiled system. What happens
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from that point is that traffic control is not considered
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in that mix, but those companies that are part of
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mutual aid are coming in, generally recognize, okay, when we
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get there, we're going to need traffic control help. And
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so in most cases, They may call ahead. We are
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also calling contacts within, say, NPSCO, saying, you're going to
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need traffic control. We're available. And the people that we
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work with within those utilities know our people enough when
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we call them to say, oh, yeah, that's a good idea.
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Let me arrange to start having that come in.
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So, yeah.
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So the system for mutual aid works terrific in the
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utility business. It is their contacts with us and ours
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with them that facilitate us getting there. Usually we are
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a bit delayed other than the folks showing up because
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we're finding out after the fact rather than before the fact.
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And you talked about safety for the people driving around
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and safety for the crews and just work efficiency.
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I'm thinking about.
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You can have downed power lines that have to be
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put back up, and we think about that, but with
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a derecho or other high winds, we've all seen scenes
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where entire line of power poles have been snapped off.
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Well, replacing those power poles is a.
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Much more difficult, time-consuming effort requiring many more crews and
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more staff doing it. So it's not Just a small operation,
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one guy in a bucket up doing that.
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And Eric, when you consider that they probably came down
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because a bunch of trees came down on top of them.
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So what you now have is you have a lot
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of trees laying on it that have stored energy in it.
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And it's not just as easy as cutting a limb off.
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Things snap back. they hit people there's fatalities over the
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years from people in forestry not recognizing how much energy
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is in a tree when it's kind of cocked and
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loaded and so you bring out the tree crews and
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you bring out the utility crews, which you don't need
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behind them, again, are a lot of people getting into
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the area and those people are at risk and they
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create additional hazards because The foresters and the utility folks
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can't watch their backs when they need to be focused
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on the front of what they're working on. I think it's,
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I mean, the federal government recognizes that's important. That's why
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they put standards in place. And just folks who work
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in this business recognize how important it is. You can't
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just assume people are going to stay out. You have
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to bring folks in to make sure that you're the gatekeeper.
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The gawkers is the term, I think, there.
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So for the topic here, when we say traffic management,
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is that two guys standing out there in bright orange
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vests or yellow suits controlling access, or is it a
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bigger effort of how traffic is going to be routed
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and kept out of an area, routed to other areas
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that aren't going to impact the restoration of power?
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Describe traffic management.
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Well, so at the simplest level, if you have a
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street that's shut down because trees are on it, it
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is two people, maybe four people with cones and a
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paddle that say stop and go at its simplest piece.
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But at a management level, then you start backing up.
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And this is really a skill that we're great at
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across the whole of the U.S. It is the people
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that needed to get through that area. Where are they
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going to go? Where do you route them? And then
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we offer services like let's sit down with the locals.
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Let's figure out how to reroute. Let's bring out a
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lot of signage and arrow boards and detour signs. And
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we set people up so that we can route traffic
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around back onto an interstate, back onto a four-lane road,
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and maybe a two-lane road that's still closed. So it's
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not just saying don't come in. It's also saying how
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do we help you get around safely? And that takes
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a little more intelligence and coordination. And you even get
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bigger when you need help. Something called AFADs, we put
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00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.160
in red, green, yellow stop signs with cross arms at
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them to direct traffic so that traffic can move back
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00:22:25.819 --> 00:22:31.559
and forth on a road. It goes from simple, easy
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management to shutting things down to much more complex rerouting
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and getting down to single lanes and opening back up.
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Well, what's one lesson you've learned about traffic management? that
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consistently surprises emergency planners?
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I'm waiting to know what I don't know.
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That we seem to be very often the last thought.
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I was in the utility business, particularly in the disaster
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recovery side of the business for the last 25 years
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of my career. And I would be embarrassed as a
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vice president of two companies to say, my thought about
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traffic control and protecting the workers was almost zero. I
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00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:29.779
just wanted my workers to work safe. I wanted the
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00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.819
vehicles to be safe and I wanted them to focus
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on not being distracted. And until I got into this
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side of the business and began to more recognize, wait
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a minute, every time that I was out there as
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a utility person, There were folks that were protecting my folks.
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Why didn't that dawn on me? And the fact is
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the traffic control protectors were generally always there and I
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didn't pay much attention to it. If I were doing
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00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:04.640
it again, going 10 back in my time, back in
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my career, I would want to know how much traffic
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management we're bringing in to make sure my workers were
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safe when they did it. That's my biggest lesson learned.
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Bill. If there is such thing as reincarnation, something you
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would know.
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So when communities are preparing for hurricanes, tornadoes, or other
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major weather events that take out the power, what's the
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biggest traffic management challenge they tend to underestimate before the
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storm arrives?
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Or I think you kind of mentioned it, they don't
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know it's a problem until it becomes a problem. And
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so it's an afterthought.
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Yeah, I think you just answered our own question there,
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is their biggest challenge is it's not thought about. I mean,
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I'll throw in one example that brings a little bit
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of history in. We operate under a federal statute, Title 23,
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Part 655. I won't OSHA operates on.
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I'd like you to read that statute to us.
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Oh, I'm sure you would. I'll quote it from memory.
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But the MUTCD, which is the Management of Traffic, was
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started in 1935. And it was started as a way to,
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when you have a road, what lines need to be
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painted on the road to And what color do they
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00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:44.740
need to be? That's so ridiculous today because we live
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00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.980
under that. Don't ever think about it. But we all
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know how to drive on a two lane road without
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crashing because you got yellow lines and white lines and
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staying on the road. So it is a thought and
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00:25:56.250 --> 00:26:01.039
has been for more than, you know, almost a century
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that safety really relies on having the right vehicle. policies, procedures,
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00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:11.539
and thought about protecting the public all the way up
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00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:13.380
to all the road signs that we see and the
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speed limits, that's all managed under the same statute that
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00:26:16.710 --> 00:26:20.150
we are. And it's been recognized for a couple of
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00:26:20.210 --> 00:26:24.950
decades that when there is construction or damage, you have
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to have an independent agency out there protecting everyone. Okay.
392
00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:36.680
All right. That's a good piece. And, you know, for
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00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:38.119
our podcast today.
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00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.700
We're about halfway through, maybe a little bit more than that,
395
00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:44.529
but we're going to take a moment for a break
396
00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:47.670
and we'll be right back after these messages.
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Like what you're hearing? Check out our show notes for
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more details, including the links to each of our sponsors.
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And we are back and talking today with Tom Kraft,
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00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:48.470
Senior Vice President, Operations for AWP Safety. And at this point,
424
00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:51.750
I'd just like to take a moment to recognize Zach Borst,
425
00:28:51.829 --> 00:28:56.369
who is the technical producer and provides support to produce
426
00:28:56.410 --> 00:28:57.230
these podcasts.
427
00:28:57.289 --> 00:29:02.170
Without him, Disaster Zone would not happen. So thank you, Zach.
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00:29:03.490 --> 00:29:05.799
And Tom, back to you.
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00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:09.539
Can you Walk us through what a good traffic management
430
00:29:09.579 --> 00:29:14.400
looks like during the first few hours after a disaster
431
00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:20.240
and how that helps emergency responders to do their jobs
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00:29:20.299 --> 00:29:22.109
more safely and efficiently.
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00:29:24.849 --> 00:29:32.910
Well, for us, AWP safety, the first thing is we
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00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:38.940
have to know where and what type of damage that
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00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:43.150
we're looking at, Even before, let's say I have crews
436
00:29:43.170 --> 00:29:45.230
are going to roll out of North Carolina and South
437
00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:49.210
Carolina into Florida or roll from Florida and Georgia up
438
00:29:49.269 --> 00:29:53.519
into North Carolina. What's the type of damage? Quick, just
439
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:57.970
quick assessment. Is it mostly wires down? Is there very
440
00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:01.109
little wires? Is it mostly trees down? That dictates the
441
00:30:01.150 --> 00:30:04.329
type of equipment that we bring with us. You know,
442
00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:08.809
and our equipment foray is not that huge. It's, you know,
443
00:30:08.849 --> 00:30:12.509
it's cones, it's barrels, but what do we need in
444
00:30:12.549 --> 00:30:14.670
terms of arrow boards? What do we need in terms
445
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:17.539
of what we call, again, the AFADs that are the
446
00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:20.220
stop and go lights with arms on them? What do
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00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.099
we need in terms of trucks that we call TMAs
448
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:28.809
that You use on the freeways as a cushion in
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00:30:28.849 --> 00:30:32.789
case someone hits, it absorbs the shock of the cushion.
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00:30:32.849 --> 00:30:35.630
So we have to, in the first little bit, we
451
00:30:35.829 --> 00:30:39.549
have to mobilize. We have to determine, the second thing
452
00:30:39.609 --> 00:30:43.079
we have to do is determine who can actually leave
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00:30:43.099 --> 00:30:47.160
an area and go to the storm. So Eric, this
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00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:53.349
is really important, but it's unseen. let's say that there's
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00:30:53.369 --> 00:30:58.910
a call for 200 two-person crews from AWP Safety, I
456
00:30:58.990 --> 00:31:02.839
can't pull any of those crews out of areas in
457
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.819
the country where people are still working. So you got
458
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.200
a group up in Ohio, they're doing a lot of work,
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00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:14.230
they're not helping with storm recovery. I can't just walk
460
00:31:14.289 --> 00:31:17.309
away from that work and go down south to help
461
00:31:17.349 --> 00:31:19.710
with their recovery effort because it stops the work in
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00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.960
Ohio from everyone who's required to have traffic control on
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00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:28.619
their jobs. So it gets very strategic. Where is work
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00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:32.579
being shut down for other utilities? Where are they pulling
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00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.940
people out of? And we have to sort of overlay
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00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:40.000
and match who's leaving with what resources it's freeing up
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00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:44.170
for us to send. Hope I said that well enough
468
00:31:44.190 --> 00:31:48.109
to understand. You just can't It's like pulling, hey, we
469
00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:50.990
need more TSA agents in this airport, and so they
470
00:31:51.029 --> 00:31:53.309
pull all the TSA agents out of yours, and here
471
00:31:53.349 --> 00:31:55.059
you are standing in line, and you can't get on
472
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:58.759
your flight because all the TSA agents went somewhere else.
473
00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:02.839
Again, this summer has been interesting to see these major
474
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:11.240
storms traveling across the United States. They hit Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana,
475
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:15.089
but then they keep going east. They're into Ohio, Pennsylvania,
476
00:32:15.130 --> 00:32:20.849
New Jersey. even New York City, that that same storm
477
00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:25.930
is wrecking havoc and power outages as it proceeds from
478
00:32:25.950 --> 00:32:26.990
the west to the east.
479
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:32.380
So that strategic planning you talk about is critical.
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I think I'm trying to pretend, I'm pretending now, back
481
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.759
like when I was eight, nine years old and pretend.
482
00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:46.259
Then I'm an emergency manager, I'm thinking, well, Don't these
483
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:50.319
utility companies that deploy linemen and all that, don't they
484
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.529
bring those types of people that AWP would provide with them?
485
00:32:54.829 --> 00:32:56.509
Why would we need AWP?
486
00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:04.549
Well, actually, some do. I mean, we have great relationships.
487
00:33:05.430 --> 00:33:09.819
I mean, AWP safety is the largest company. traffic control
488
00:33:09.859 --> 00:33:12.279
provider in the U.S. now, and we only continue to
489
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:17.619
grow because most of them are smaller. You have just
490
00:33:17.660 --> 00:33:20.410
a few mid-sized companies, but most of them are smaller
491
00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:23.109
and just take care of a certain jurisdiction.
492
00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:24.509
And what.
493
00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:31.349
We have the capability of doing is we have relationships
494
00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:36.539
like if a utility in Ohio, say American Electric Power,
495
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:41.390
sends a 30 crews to Florida or North Carolina, we
496
00:33:41.430 --> 00:33:44.220
have the kind of relationships that very often they'll say, hey,
497
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.519
we're going and we'd like to take the protectors with
498
00:33:46.579 --> 00:33:48.680
us because they've built relationships with people in the field
499
00:33:48.740 --> 00:33:51.359
and they know that they trust them. So in about
500
00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:54.220
half the time, that's sort of the way it works.
501
00:33:54.859 --> 00:33:56.980
You get a call. They call us. They say we're
502
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.880
going south. We call them and say, hey, do you
503
00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:02.180
need help? And they're like, oh, yes. The other half
504
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:06.569
is just folks who move to the area. They're independent contractors,
505
00:34:06.609 --> 00:34:10.750
and they typically don't have those relationships. So the other
506
00:34:10.809 --> 00:34:14.710
part of your coordination question is we make a lot
507
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:19.619
of calls when storms are in certain areas to see,
508
00:34:20.550 --> 00:34:23.389
are you sending people? And if they say no, we
509
00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:26.429
make sure that we keep our workforce in that area intact.
510
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:30.679
But others who say, yeah, we are. We're sending 30 crews.
511
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.260
We're sending 60 crews. We're sending 80. We will say
512
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:37.860
that we're going to pull our resources from that area
513
00:34:37.989 --> 00:34:41.150
and send them down as well. So there's a lot
514
00:34:41.170 --> 00:34:45.550
of logistics behind the scenes that gets coordinated that's impromptu.
515
00:34:45.570 --> 00:34:52.429
Well, these safety people, the company crews, or surge as
516
00:34:52.449 --> 00:34:59.159
the overall coordination, they need a place to live, eat, sleep, that.
517
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:01.980
So that's a piece of the coordination that has to happen.
518
00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:03.429
It is.
519
00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:09.250
And we have recently instituted an incident command structure. I mean,
520
00:35:09.469 --> 00:35:14.219
this is utilities, fire departments, police departments all operate under
521
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:21.590
an incident command structure. And we've grown good at setting
522
00:35:21.650 --> 00:35:26.230
up an internal incident command structure within awp safety where
523
00:35:26.769 --> 00:35:31.469
if you get 30 requests from all over um different
524
00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:35.420
places you know in a certain geographic part of the u.s
525
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:38.400
we feed all of that up through our incident command
526
00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:41.280
so we know what are all the resources that are
527
00:35:41.300 --> 00:35:44.159
being asked how many hotel rooms do we need and
528
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:48.179
we bring people in our organization i have to say okay,
529
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:50.699
we're going to have to find hotel rooms for our folks.
530
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:55.300
And we don't just leave it to everybody individually trying
531
00:35:55.340 --> 00:35:58.440
to call and find something for themselves. And it's a
532
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:02.309
very unique system. All we're doing is replicating what the
533
00:36:02.369 --> 00:36:06.389
utilities and National Guard and others do for management and command.
534
00:36:06.409 --> 00:36:11.190
But it makes us more efficient. And better efficiency means
535
00:36:11.250 --> 00:36:16.639
better safety. And better efficiency also means less cost. to
536
00:36:16.659 --> 00:36:21.639
the utilities or the municipalities that are functioning. You get
537
00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:24.380
group rates, et cetera, et cetera. You can only imagine.
538
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:29.780
And I think that incident command structure helps us be
539
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.059
better than others that do this business across the U.S.
540
00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:39.949
Well, you mentioned here after the break this aspect of
541
00:36:39.969 --> 00:36:44.340
coordination to know That's really the damage assessment. That's first
542
00:36:44.389 --> 00:36:49.820
thing that all emergency management organizations need to do is
543
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.420
figure out what's happened, where has it happened, how bad
544
00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.860
is it, where are the worst places, what resources might
545
00:36:56.900 --> 00:36:58.480
be needed in those places.
546
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:04.900
So have you found that the Emergency Operations Center, be
547
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:10.099
it at the state for a multi-county place or incidents,
548
00:37:11.170 --> 00:37:13.010
is the best place to go to try and get
549
00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:13.929
that information.
550
00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:19.130
And I would just add that this has not happened.
551
00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:23.710
I've had a larger county, King County, with, you know,
552
00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:29.210
2 million population. Now, 39 cities, everybody wants their power
553
00:37:29.730 --> 00:37:34.010
back on first. And we always tried to have the
554
00:37:34.090 --> 00:37:40.500
major provider in that area, Puget Sound Energy, representatives in
555
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:45.360
the Emergency Operations Center. Ideally, before we've had that for
556
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.559
a forecasted storm and then throughout the storm response. So
557
00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:52.570
we have that close coordination. So is that the place
558
00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:55.949
you'd like to be? Is that the Emergency Operations Center?
559
00:37:56.849 --> 00:37:59.590
And ideally, I think the state for a really big
560
00:37:59.650 --> 00:38:03.510
event or at a county level for smaller events.
561
00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:14.210
So as as A utility vice president, I typically was
562
00:38:14.469 --> 00:38:16.849
in larger events, was the one that was at those
563
00:38:16.889 --> 00:38:21.210
emergency operations center to coordinate providing information back. I think
564
00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:31.050
it would be very good for someone to represent traffic
565
00:38:31.090 --> 00:38:35.320
control safety at that meeting, if nothing else, to get
566
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:42.250
the big picture. But primarily... The best place to be
567
00:38:42.989 --> 00:38:47.650
is at the local jurisdiction. I gave the example that
568
00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:50.250
maybe you have 10 locations across Florida that are set
569
00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:53.190
up as hubs to cover each of the different areas.
570
00:38:53.929 --> 00:38:57.590
That's the place that is best for us to plug
571
00:38:57.750 --> 00:38:59.670
in and know what's going on. So you have all
572
00:38:59.690 --> 00:39:03.869
your resources. They're all being dispatched out of an area.
573
00:39:04.489 --> 00:39:07.250
And we need to be there so that we can...
574
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.199
have the total number of assets that we have available.
575
00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:14.570
We can pair them up and send them all out together.
576
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.670
That really is the best place for us to be
577
00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:20.989
plugged in to make sure that we are included in
578
00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:24.769
all of those localized storm recovery meetings.
579
00:39:26.510 --> 00:39:30.860
And what you're describing there, I call a read approach
580
00:39:31.099 --> 00:39:34.920
for state emergency management. It's something I've pushed for in
581
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:39.559
Washington state and have been unsuccessful over the years in
582
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:43.199
trying to make that happen. But many states do have
583
00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:49.730
regions established. California is perhaps the most sophisticated in having
584
00:39:49.750 --> 00:39:54.090
the number of staff and regional operations center to do
585
00:39:54.150 --> 00:39:58.989
that type of direct coordination, what you just described.
586
00:39:59.469 --> 00:40:03.760
The other tricky thing is that the traffic control business
587
00:40:05.010 --> 00:40:11.860
isn't narrowed down to just two or 3,000 handful of
588
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:14.900
very big providers that you could go to. I mean,
589
00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:18.539
there are, and this is a guess, there are probably
590
00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:23.250
tens if not hundreds of thousands of very small traffic
591
00:40:23.269 --> 00:40:28.150
control providers all over the US. And what you're doing
592
00:40:28.289 --> 00:40:30.969
when you have a disaster in the area is you're
593
00:40:30.989 --> 00:40:35.280
relying on people's contacts with all of their smaller subsidiaries
594
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.340
and just trying to grab as many as you can.
595
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:44.130
I think the advantage of having larger traffic control companies
596
00:40:44.190 --> 00:40:47.269
such as ours, Is it lets you reach out to
597
00:40:48.210 --> 00:40:51.820
one or two people that can supply the majority of
598
00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:56.099
your need rather than trying to want off hundreds of
599
00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:01.340
assistants throughout an area? And it runs uncoordinated. And I
600
00:41:01.420 --> 00:41:04.199
think that's, again, part of the advantage that we bring.
601
00:41:04.219 --> 00:41:09.159
But yeah, the regional approach to me works so much
602
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.860
better when you're managing an event.
603
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:16.360
So do you have contracts with these other smaller providers
604
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.929
to augment your force so that you have that surge capacity?
605
00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:29.070
We don't. Not really. We don't pull from other companies.
606
00:41:30.010 --> 00:41:33.710
When we're locally and we need extra help, there are
607
00:41:33.809 --> 00:41:38.829
certain agencies that provide supplemental traffic control that's small. By
608
00:41:38.889 --> 00:41:43.500
and large, it's our own internal workforce agency. And we
609
00:41:43.539 --> 00:41:47.050
wouldn't really have the intelligence to know who we could
610
00:41:47.110 --> 00:41:50.260
call or bring in. That's something that's not coordinated at
611
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:51.690
all in the industry right now.
612
00:41:53.469 --> 00:41:57.949
And I'm just thinking, are these workers, what time to,
613
00:41:58.869 --> 00:42:04.170
temporary or on-call type staff that they're not working full-time, right, AWP,
614
00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:07.670
but they're available to work when needed? Kind of like
615
00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:12.590
in the FEMA reservist program, that exists to search people
616
00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:14.559
when there's a disaster?
617
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:23.039
Yes. So every day, this goes sort of into the
618
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:28.820
daily work, usually without any storm or disaster, you have
619
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:33.389
five working days and you may have three of those
620
00:42:33.510 --> 00:42:37.130
days that the work really ramps up. Like people are
621
00:42:37.170 --> 00:42:40.559
on 410, so they're off on a Friday or Some
622
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:42.760
of them do 410s and they're off on a Monday.
623
00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:47.460
This is other contractors like electrical contractors. So on a Monday,
624
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:52.719
if you're working 410s and half your crews are only
625
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:56.420
working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, all of a sudden there
626
00:42:56.519 --> 00:43:00.480
isn't a need for as many traffic control people. But
627
00:43:00.500 --> 00:43:02.800
they do overlap in the middle. So we may need,
628
00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:06.960
in a given state, we may need 250 resources Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
629
00:43:10.550 --> 00:43:14.530
But we may only need 150 on Monday and Friday.
630
00:43:15.110 --> 00:43:19.539
So we really have this workforce that morphs and flexes
631
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:25.440
where folks aren't working full time. They don't mind that
632
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.880
by and large. And so if we need to surge,
633
00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:34.630
we can pull in folks that generally are just working
634
00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:37.909
part days of the week and we can surge up
635
00:43:37.969 --> 00:43:40.329
and take all of those resources and pull from them.
636
00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:44.869
So it's sort of a magic to it and how
637
00:43:44.909 --> 00:43:48.570
you manage that type of workforce, but we are very flexible.
638
00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:53.340
We're not like utilities who put people on, even contractors,
639
00:43:53.429 --> 00:43:55.599
and they give them 40 or 50 hours of work
640
00:43:55.619 --> 00:43:57.460
a week, and they just go out and do the work.
641
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.300
We have to follow what the work is and how
642
00:44:00.340 --> 00:44:01.199
much is available.
643
00:44:02.300 --> 00:44:05.579
So when there's not an emergency or a disaster and
644
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:11.090
all that, are you providing contractors traffic management do, you know,
645
00:44:11.110 --> 00:44:13.829
it could be for road work or other utility work
646
00:44:13.929 --> 00:44:14.250
at all?
647
00:44:15.210 --> 00:44:15.909
Absolutely.
648
00:44:16.550 --> 00:44:17.909
Okay. Yeah.
649
00:44:17.989 --> 00:44:21.630
I mean, if you, if, if you look at drive
650
00:44:21.650 --> 00:44:26.090
on virtually any interstate and you'll see, you know, barrels
651
00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:31.800
and concrete, you know, protectors, you'll see arrow boards on
652
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.079
trucks out there. You'll see them when folks are mowing
653
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:38.960
the grass on, interstates. You'll get on four and two
654
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.659
lane roads. You'll see lane closures. And that's us. We
655
00:44:43.699 --> 00:44:46.980
do all of those things day in and day out. Plus,
656
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:52.690
I mean, this isn't emergency response, Eric, but where traffic
657
00:44:52.750 --> 00:44:56.969
and people may intersect, we're there. So we do major
658
00:44:57.030 --> 00:45:03.059
golf tournaments. I think we did one of the the
659
00:45:03.619 --> 00:45:07.860
World Cup game arenas. We have, for example, we have
660
00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:10.440
a contract with the city of Orlando that we manage
661
00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:13.239
all of their events where we go out and set
662
00:45:13.300 --> 00:45:17.050
up all the barricades, move the traffic out, let the
663
00:45:17.090 --> 00:45:19.369
people move in what we set up and it frees
664
00:45:19.429 --> 00:45:21.989
up the police force to do the policing while we
665
00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:25.800
just do the traffic management. So we're out there every
666
00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:29.179
day and we just pull from those resources in an event. Okay.
667
00:45:33.389 --> 00:45:35.250
It's another question I have for you.
668
00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:38.750
When you said put up barricades, you know, I was
669
00:45:38.789 --> 00:45:43.710
just at, it's called the Scandi Fest in Junction City, Oregon. That's,
670
00:45:44.989 --> 00:45:50.530
you know, Scandinavian type street fair that happens across the
671
00:45:50.550 --> 00:45:54.559
United States for whether it's the Blackberry Festival or Gooey
672
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:58.699
Duck Festival. Anybody knows what a Gooey Duck is? But
673
00:46:00.219 --> 00:46:06.690
they actually had these, traffic barriers that'll stop a vehicle.
674
00:46:07.289 --> 00:46:09.489
Are you getting into that type of.
675
00:46:10.190 --> 00:46:15.829
Barrier support or are you still saw horses?
676
00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:19.230
I don't exactly know what those are. I mean, we
677
00:46:19.269 --> 00:46:23.469
have multiple different types of barriers, whether they're water-filled barriers,
678
00:46:24.349 --> 00:46:28.840
whether they're cones or barrels. We do the wooden saw horses,
679
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:33.320
you know, and we certainly do you know, the stoplight
680
00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:35.000
ones with the arms on them that go up and
681
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:39.659
down that we can manage manually or automatically. We have
682
00:46:39.699 --> 00:46:46.909
a complete arsenal of what we can bring to the table.
683
00:46:48.730 --> 00:46:53.639
Well, for emergency managers and public works leaders listening today,
684
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.239
what's the one practical step they can take now to
685
00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:04.289
better incorporate traffic management into their disaster preparedness plans before
686
00:47:04.349 --> 00:47:06.510
the next major event.
687
00:47:06.550 --> 00:47:09.670
Sometimes people put.
688
00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:15.530
Together pre-contracts or they sign a contract to have a
689
00:47:15.590 --> 00:47:18.010
resource and it's on standby only.
690
00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:21.110
Is that the type of thing or what can they do?
691
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:26.940
I think the most prominent thing I can think of
692
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:32.690
is give us a seat at the table. And events coming,
693
00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:37.090
you're trying to mobilize who's coming, where they're going to
694
00:47:37.110 --> 00:47:39.000
be going, where you think it's going to be. Bring
695
00:47:39.059 --> 00:47:41.539
us in early. Let us sit and look at your
696
00:47:41.619 --> 00:47:46.260
maps with you. And as this thing hits, if we're
697
00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:49.920
sitting at the table and you're deciding where to send crews,
698
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.769
let us pin the locations in those areas for traffic
699
00:47:54.809 --> 00:47:58.590
control so that we're more deliberate about it and getting
700
00:47:58.610 --> 00:48:02.119
the right resources there. I mean, if we have a
701
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:05.780
seat at the table, we can help map what you
702
00:48:05.860 --> 00:48:08.789
need to protect the zones that you're going to be
703
00:48:08.829 --> 00:48:09.389
working in.
704
00:48:09.409 --> 00:48:15.730
All right. Pre-planning, right? And, you know, this conversation, I
705
00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:17.409
have to tell you a quick war story.
706
00:48:18.489 --> 00:48:22.309
When you talked about message boards, we had a big storm,
707
00:48:22.769 --> 00:48:28.030
took out 90% of the distribution system. So people didn't
708
00:48:28.070 --> 00:48:31.440
have power and we were trying to assess damage. We
709
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:37.110
established a number for citizens, residents to call into and
710
00:48:37.170 --> 00:48:40.269
report damages, uninsured damages.
711
00:48:41.190 --> 00:48:43.909
And we had like 14 boards.
712
00:48:43.550 --> 00:48:49.789
That the county road division had to put out strategically.
713
00:48:50.010 --> 00:48:53.480
We came up with a message. We had the number established.
714
00:48:53.539 --> 00:48:57.500
And I remember telling my public information officer, double check
715
00:48:57.559 --> 00:48:58.599
that number and.
716
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:02.179
Make sure we're right. which he said, got it, it's
717
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:02.639
all done.
718
00:49:02.659 --> 00:49:05.000
And then we found out the number that ended up
719
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:08.289
getting posted on all those boards went to.
720
00:49:08.550 --> 00:49:09.530
A porn site.
721
00:49:12.510 --> 00:49:17.110
We were scrambling when that happened, you know, for want
722
00:49:17.289 --> 00:49:18.289
of one digit.
723
00:49:19.630 --> 00:49:21.050
We had the wrong number displayed.
724
00:49:21.110 --> 00:49:26.320
So folks, be prepared for stuff to go wrong in
725
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:27.099
a disaster.
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00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:31.139
Well, you know, another part. Go ahead. Let me toss
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00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:35.239
this in since, you know, I recognize we're getting closed.
728
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:42.239
The other thing for emergency managers to recognize, when you
729
00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:48.739
have a big event, the rules for managing safety and
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00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:53.590
traffic don't go away. So, for example, if you're a
731
00:49:53.650 --> 00:49:57.909
utility crew working outside your jurisdiction, all of your safety
732
00:49:58.210 --> 00:50:03.539
rules guided by OSHA, they don't go away. because you're
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00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:07.300
in an event. In fact, the rules that are there
734
00:50:07.340 --> 00:50:10.619
to protect you and keep you safe, they actually become
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00:50:10.889 --> 00:50:15.690
more important, not less important. And people will often think, well,
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00:50:15.710 --> 00:50:17.809
all you're doing is throwing a couple of guys out
737
00:50:17.849 --> 00:50:21.389
there in a vest. And we talked about sometimes it's
738
00:50:21.429 --> 00:50:26.969
that simple, mostly it's not. But we're the ones who know,
739
00:50:27.309 --> 00:50:29.750
it's our job as specialists to know what all the
740
00:50:29.829 --> 00:50:34.429
rules are for traffic management. to keep speed limits down
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00:50:34.489 --> 00:50:37.710
and keep people focused and to make sure we guide
742
00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:40.110
them in the right directions and make sure we move
743
00:50:41.449 --> 00:50:45.269
it well. And the rules become even more paramount when,
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00:50:45.309 --> 00:50:48.860
in fact, you get into these situations. And that's the
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00:50:48.889 --> 00:50:51.960
thing we're experts at, and that's the thing that utilities
746
00:50:52.840 --> 00:51:00.050
and tree– personnel and everyone don't, that's not their forte.
747
00:51:00.090 --> 00:51:02.610
They don't know what the rules are that govern the
748
00:51:02.670 --> 00:51:06.449
traffic that might be coming into their areas. And you
749
00:51:06.489 --> 00:51:10.329
really want a company that understands the rules and knows
750
00:51:10.389 --> 00:51:12.449
how to go out and make sure that all those
751
00:51:12.570 --> 00:51:15.530
rules are still followed to keep everyone in the public safe.
752
00:51:17.550 --> 00:51:21.380
And yeah, it's all about safety, right? It's all about safety.
753
00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:26.219
Well, I just want to say thank you to Tom
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00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:30.260
Kraft with AWP for being a guest here on the
755
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.980
Disaster Zone podcast.
756
00:51:32.739 --> 00:51:38.719
Yeah, it's great to be here. I appreciate it, Eric.
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00:51:38.739 --> 00:51:43.500
Go right ahead.
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00:51:44.219 --> 00:51:44.719
No, you go.
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00:51:44.739 --> 00:51:51.730
I mean, if I can emphasize anything at what traffic
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00:51:51.769 --> 00:51:56.250
control provides, I talked about at the very beginning is
761
00:51:56.269 --> 00:52:02.550
we are people that protect the people who are doing
762
00:52:02.570 --> 00:52:11.760
the work. And it's an admirable profession and often unsung
763
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:17.469
because you can't measure what did not happen. So many
764
00:52:17.530 --> 00:52:21.960
people out working in roadways and such get to come
765
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.880
home every day, and that is by design and not
766
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:30.539
by accident. And we're very proud, as probably any traffic
767
00:52:30.579 --> 00:52:33.099
control provider across the U.S. I don't speak for our
768
00:52:33.139 --> 00:52:36.860
company alone, that it's great to be in a profession
769
00:52:36.909 --> 00:52:39.429
where you can protect other people and help them get
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00:52:39.489 --> 00:52:42.809
home safely. Well, that's awesome.
771
00:52:43.369 --> 00:52:45.789
A great last message to share, Tom.
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00:52:45.829 --> 00:52:49.130
And I just want to say that as somebody who's
773
00:52:49.170 --> 00:52:52.190
been doing this type of thing for over 30 years
774
00:52:52.750 --> 00:52:57.239
at state and local level, this concept of incorporating traffic
775
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:01.719
management into the response, I always in my mind.
776
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:03.599
Had thought, well, that's the utility, folks.
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00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:07.039
But my eyes have been opened. I hope folks listening
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00:53:07.820 --> 00:53:14.480
today have had their eyes opened to it. Another aspect
779
00:53:14.539 --> 00:53:18.110
of coordination that we as emergency managers and then also
780
00:53:18.130 --> 00:53:22.369
other public safety professionals who are out there in storm
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00:53:22.570 --> 00:53:32.389
ravaged areas can do to implement processes and procedures that
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00:53:32.469 --> 00:53:36.960
provide safety, not only for the crews and that, but for.
783
00:53:36.820 --> 00:53:38.679
The people who might be affected.
784
00:53:39.909 --> 00:53:43.210
Inadvertently putting themselves in danger or getting in the way
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00:53:43.250 --> 00:53:43.610
of work.
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00:53:44.610 --> 00:53:47.119
So lastly, a reminder, everyone, be safe.
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00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:50.380
Think about what you can do today, traffic management folks,
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00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:54.840
to become personally better prepared for the next disaster. If
789
00:53:54.860 --> 00:53:58.739
you like this Disaster Zone podcast, please share it with your.
790
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:05.050
Social media contacts. Thanks for listening, and as we said today,
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00:54:05.070 --> 00:54:05.849
be safe.