[00:01:29] Josh DeTar: Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Jay Tkachuk, the SVP, Chief Digital Officer at Golden 1 Credit Union. Jay is a recent transplant from San Antonio, Texas to Sacramento, California, to which everybody seems to remind him due to home prices in each place, he was supposed to go the other way.
[00:01:50] Jay's a husband, and a father of three teenagers who he says were apparently closet Californians all along, the boys went from being clean-cut Texans to long-haired California surfer dudes on basically day one of landing in California. Jay's a lifelong learner, um, his curiosity is almost unmatched.
[00:02:08] He says he has always been interested in science fiction as it is basically a series of rabbit holes taking you to the unexpected, and he takes that curious approach in everything he does, both personally and professionally. Jay said, "There are a lot of things I'll never understand, but I want to turn over every rock and learn as much about the things that interest me or impact me as possible."
[00:02:31] Jay is also a total jokester, and I can attest to this personally, you never walk away from an after-lunch ice cream with Jay without a huge smile on your face and sore cheeks. I remember the first time I ever met Jay, he offered to take me to the airport to catch my flight home, he opens up the trunk for my suitcase, and before he does, he says, "Oh, and don't mind that giant sword in there, that's used for intimidating IT."
[00:02:56] The best part was there was actually a giant sword in there. As you can imagine, with Jay's can't-sit-still, wanting to perfect a skill set or craft a mindset, martial arts has been a great fit for him, and I tell you what, one of the other things about Jay is if you want to see some of the most fascinating stuff in your LinkedIn fade, feed, follow Jay Tkachuk, seriously, the best-curated content in the industry, hands down, I will give that to you, Jay. Thanks for being a guest on the podcast.
[00:03:31] Jay Tkachuk: Thank you, Josh. I'm really glad to be here.
[00:03:33] Josh DeTar: I think we kind of, like, alluded to this in your intro, we are probably gonna go down about 6 million rabbit holes today, it's one of the things that I love most about you. Um, you know, you just, you have such an interesting depth into some of the most obscure topics, but what I've always found really interesting about you is,
[00:03:53] and maybe this really obscure topic, but somehow it's always applied very relevantly. And so, I think it's really unique how you look at so many different areas of things that are happening and applying that to just kind of your thought process and your learning. So, I wanted to actually share this with our listeners, um, just because I think that this had set the tone for, for what we're talking about today.
[00:04:16] So, I want to just give you the last couple of posts from Jay's LinkedIn and some of the different articles that he's shared with his commentary on 'em, so, "Social media used AI to create the next big tobacco, so what's next?" "New breakthrough brings quantum computers a huge step closer." "New AI research from Italy introduces a diffusion-based generative model capable of both music synthesis
[00:04:46] and source separation." An article about founders of another crypto exchange being haggled by the SEC, uh, "Gen Y too broke for a midlife crisis." I mean, the list just goes on and on, right? You, so, you can see kind of the breadth of different types of articles that you share and, and your perspectives on 'em. So, Jay, I mean, my first question to you is, like, when do you sleep, man?
[00:05:10] Jay Tkachuk: Actually, I'm quite dis, disciplined about sleep, like I, I need to get my seven hours a night at least, like, every day, so. I read sort of in between, it's, it is just a need to have, I, I'm like, like I mentioned, I'm curious and the rabbit holes are everywhere, so I, inevitably, there is a squirrel moment and I'm gonna follow that squirrel for a while, and I'm gonna read about stuff that may not be applicable, maybe directly to what I do professionally today, but it, it quite possibly will tomorrow.
[00:05:38] So, we live in a world that is so interconnected, you know, butterfly effect is quite obvious everywhere. So, what happens on one side of the planet has, uh, you know, reverberates all the way across the world. So, I think, and you never know what's gonna happen, and yeah, my, my list of interest is quite diverse, but they all, said we, we have a very connected world.
[00:06:01] So, so, whatever's, what's, what's happening in one industry or, you know, in a particular field, inevitably is gonna permeate and, and affect everything else. So, I just can't help it, right, it's just, something pops under my radar, and I, I just have to know more about it, it, it is how I tick.
[00:06:18] Josh DeTar: What, uh, what was this morning's reading? Anything interesting?
[00:06:23] Jay Tkachuk: Actually, I didn't get to that, uh, uh
[00:06:24] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, I did make you start this a little early, so maybe I, I'm the start of your morning, okay, how about yesterday's?
[00:06:31] Jay Tkachuk: Yesterday, actually, I was reading about, you know, being a Ukrainian, uh, that the, the war that Russia has unlisted upon my, my former homeland, you know, so I was actually, uh, learning about the different types of war that Russia and Ukraine are waging against each other.
[00:06:48] So, Russia is utilizing the total war concept, while Ukraine is more of a classic, uh, approach to, to waging war where civilians are not being targeted, it's military to military, while, while Russia is, is targeting everybody because it's, it's not doing very well, it doesn't have a whole lot of tools left in its arsenal, and B, it is trying to literally break the people so that they surrender.
[00:07:12] So, that was very, that was very interesting. Uh, I'm interested in mil, military history in general, but I haven't thought about that particular point of view, how we are literally seeing a collision of two very different approaches to conducting warfare in, in, right now, in real-time. So,
[00:07:30] Josh DeTar: I mean,
[00:07:30] Jay Tkachuk: interesting experiment, if you will.
[00:07:33] Josh DeTar: It, yeah, I
[00:07:34] Jay Tkachuk: I wouldn't call it an experiment, but I'm saying, you know, uh,
[00:07:38] Josh DeTar: No, I get you.
[00:07:39] Jay Tkachuk: a hundred years from now, when people look at this, they'll, they'll see it as an experiment, right now it just, it's miserable, it's, it, it, miserable world that nobody wanted and was completely unprovoked and, you know, I, I can't wait for the day that Russia'll do this.
[00:07:54] Josh DeTar: I mean, it's, look, I didn't think, we knew we were gonna go down some rabbit holes, I didn't know we were gonna go down this one this fast, but it's just, it's actually mind-boggling to me, Jay, that in 2023 we are actually having this kind of war and for this long.
[00:08:11] Jay Tkachuk: You know, my first reaction was very much like yours, but being a student of history, uh, I would say we should have seen it coming, uh, you know, Russia is the, a predatory empire has always been a predatory empire, it is the last colonial empire on the face of the, of this world. So, it does what it does.
[00:08:30] And frankly, it has been trying to dominate the Baltic and the Black Sea basins for over 200 years and spilled enormous amount of blood over this, right? And now that the Baltic states are all NATO countries and therefore, um, unassailable, uh, because there's no way that Russia can compete with, with NATO, uh, militarily or economically. Once Ukraine has decided to move in that direction, right,
[00:08:54] Russia had two choices, either let it go, right, and, uh, hopefully started forming itself because if you look at what they have done, they can't build anything, they, I mean, outside the Moscow site, Petersburg is still in the 19th century effectively. So, or, you know, or do what they have always done and as, attack, I mean, you could, this, this is the 29th armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and 28 of those Russians have, have initiated.
[00:09:24] So, this is, of anybody in the world, Ukrainians should not have been surprised, right? They, they, they have been doing this to us for hundreds of years, it, it, it's just what they do.
[00:09:34] Josh DeTar: Yeah, yeah. I think the, the mind-boggling part to me is that we're supposed to be such an advanced civilization at this point, right? And yes, history repeats itself, but we're also supposed to, you know, maybe, I don't know, learn from history, and like you said, maybe not so much even see it coming, but maybe react to things differently.
[00:09:57] And it's just been really interesting, and I hate to use the word, but I'll reuse it, it's almost been a, a very interesting experiment to see how each country has also just interacted or not interacted with this conflict as well.
[00:10:12] Jay Tkachuk: Yes. That, that has been very interesting to, to, to watch, right? And, and how UN, uh, you know, reacts or doesn't react, it, it's, in wars, definitely, uh, put things in black, in, into black and white, right? The world is not black and white, the universe is not black and white, but when you are faced with such sheer, you know, evil on such a massive scale, things, uh, things do tend to fall in a stock perspective.
[00:10:37] Josh DeTar: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, sometimes it takes some of these big events to put things into perspective, and like you were talking about earlier with the butterfly effect, right, I mean, how many ripple effects has this conflict had, even here in the US? You know, even simple little stuff, right? Like, when, uh, Russia first started attacking, started having to think about, hey, what countries do we restrict access to digital banking and things like that, right? So, it's incredible how big of a ripple effect a big event like this can have.
[00:11:12] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely.
[00:11:13] Josh DeTar: And so, I think that puts some of these things in perspective where, you know, there are also smaller things that are happening all around the world in our geographies, in our own, you know, businesses that create ripple effects, that have impacts that sometimes you may not even see right away.
[00:11:29] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, absolutely. I expect that this war will, will advance a lot of technology forward, you know, I bet that the drone, you know, the, the drone industry is gonna be a, gonna get a huge push forward because that technology is utilized so much in this conflict, I mean, we've, we've had an actual first, you know, drone on drone combat, you know, in the world that took place there.
[00:11:50] So, I do expect that, you know, that and the, uh, cyber warfare and, you know, narrative warfare, all of these fields are going to get a giant leap forward because of this conflict. And it's an unfortunate consequence of, of such, such events, right? I would rather stuff like this evolves naturally or doesn't evolve at all.
[00:12:11] We, we have plenty of conflict as it is, uh, but, you know, when, when the bully decides to fight you, you have only two, two options, you can either runaway, well, three, runaway, call the law enforcement or fight, right? Uh, if you're a country, first two options are not available. So, we are where we are.
[00:12:30] I'm glad that Ukraine has such awesome friends as United States, right? And, and the UK, and, uh, European countries, and Poland, and, and others, and I do believe that the victory is not, you know, it's not, not gonna be quick coming and it'll be paid dearly for, but this coming and that the strategic defeat of Russia finally will lead hopefully to the third and last contraction of that evil empire,
[00:12:55] and, uh, it, other collapse, and frankly, I think Russians actually will benefit from that, too, in the long run, uh, because it's long past due that, uh, they're, they become a nation-state like everybody else, and joined, become a normal country as a normal contributing member of an international community and not some boogeyman that is lurking, you know, in the shadows, you know, just waiting to strike you, no, we, we, we don't need that, nobody does.
[00:13:23] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I was like, we don't need that, nobody needs that. You know, it's, it was interesting the point you made, I mean, you know, conflict is a change engine, right? And we, again, we see that in so many different examples, and again, if you look at your history books, right? Major wars have been catalysts for change,
[00:13:43] they've been catalysts for innovation and sometimes for the good, sometimes for the not-so-good, right? But I think what I'm trying to say is, wouldn't it be great if we could get to the point where we can have those positive catalysts for change without all the bloodshed, right?
[00:14:00] Jay Tkachuk: That would be lovely.
[00:14:01] Josh DeTar: And, you know, you made the comment about a drone on drone warfare, right? I mean, for starters, that's like every video game playing kids dream, right? Being able to be the one, like, fighting another drone in the real world, like, but um, you know, there's, there's an interesting side to even technology coming into war, right? And previously, that would've been two pilots, two human beings in two planes, potentially having that conflict, and, and now it's two completely unmanned craft. So, it's interesting how even technology has changed the face of how we do war.
[00:14:42] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, absolutely. And, and again, I hope that once this is over, right? And, uh, and I hope it, it, give it, you know, it ends soon, but once this is over, the, the technological progress that we will, we will get out of this will allow us to use the same sort of approaches in, like, lunar exploration, alright? So, like, the distance, manipulating robotic or semi, semi-autonomous vehicles on a lunar surface to, to speed up, you know, the exploration of that, of that world,
[00:15:12] uh, and ultimately set, setting up, e, expanding to it, right? Setting up, you know, self-sufficient or semi-self-sufficient colonies there that will allow us to, to manufacture new materials that are impossible to make here or too expensive to make here. So, the next, like I, I sense that we are on the, on the verge of the next technological leap into the future.
[00:15:34] And this war, as unfortunate as it is, is just one of those things that's going to accelerate that leap, that, that transition. So, uh, I am looking forward to both, its ending and, you know, in the building Ukraine, which is a beautiful, phenomenal country with amazing people, and like, what, what lies, what lies, what lies after that, right?
[00:15:58] And what I feel is lies after that, I hope is that a, a, a long period of, of lasting peace with heavy dose of space exploration and actually starting to deal with the climate crisis that we see, we see unfold in front of us. And the only way that we will have to deal with that is, uh, not only moving away from fossil fuels but also getting into space, right,
[00:16:20] and start building those, what, whatever those solutions will be, whether those are mirrors or whatever, I don't know, right, but we will figure it out as a, as a species, I'm, I'm pretty sure, and it's gonna be an exciting, exciting several decades of, of doing that, it's gonna be kind of like what happened in the 70s, in the 60s and 70s with Apollo program, but on a much grander scale. So, I'm really looking forward to that.
[00:16:45] Josh DeTar: Okay, I gotta ask, ask are you team Elon and hashtag colonize Mars, or where you fall on this one, Jay?
[00:16:51] Jay Tkachuk: So, uh, I, I've sort of mixed on that, right? Yeah, Mars is, uh, is definitely a planet, right? But we just, un, until we learn the lessons that we have to learn by first living on the moon, right? And figuring out the recycling technologies, how to grow food, how to manufacture things in a very hostile environment,
[00:17:11] but there's no help coming from anywhere, right, it's, you're just too far away from, from everybody. Until we know how to do that, I think Mars is unattainable, it's, it's a pipe dream, right? So, we have a world that is, you know, more hostile than Mars, frankly, like, right here, so let's learn how to live there, and then we can take it, take this show on the road for other, more distant worlds.
[00:17:37] But until we do that, I, you know, I just don't, I, I don't see it happening, just technologically we're not there, and I don't want to see, uh, I don't wanna have the first colonies to become the first tombs of humanity on, on, on other, other worlds, it, it's, it's not inspiring.
[00:17:54] Josh DeTar: You know, this made me think about, I'm gonna say it in a totally cheesy way because, um, this, I don't know how I remember this 'cause I don't remember what I had for breakfast, but our, my high school graduation, our, like, slogan was one that probably three outta five high schools have as their, you know, high school graduation slogan,
[00:18:14] but it was the whole, you know, "Shoot for the moon if you miss you'll land among the stars" kind of thing. But in all seriousness, you know, what do you think of that kind of methodology? I was recently listening to an interview with Elon and, and then kind of a follow-up to that interview,
[00:18:32] and they were talking about, you know, what were to happen if Elon, you know, cease to exist, right? Like, would anybody be crazy enough to pick up his torch, or would somebody just say, "You know what, man, like, Mars is ridiculous, like, what are we doing? We're spending so much money trying to go to Mars, we gotta knock this stuff off,
[00:18:51] you know, we're building rockets and trying to colonize Mars, we could take this technology, we could really easily just build a slightly better airplane and get from, you know, New York to Paris a little bit quicker." But, you know, with his, his crazy level of visionary, like, I'm gonna shoot for it, is that what's driving a lot of the innovation that's coming out of it is that his end goal is so ridiculous, and maybe he doesn't even believe in the end goal, but he knows that if that's the end goal as opposed to just let's build a better airplane, they'll get further, I don't know, what are your thoughts?
[00:19:26] Jay Tkachuk: So, uh, I, I think we absolutely need people like this, right? Elon is, uh, I do think that he does believe in actually doing this because o, otherwise his, his level of commitment would be unsustainable. So, but it really almost doesn't matter whether he succeeds, succeeds or not, right? But we got out of the Apollo program was not, not, not lunar colonies, but the internet,
[00:19:46] ultimately, and mobile phones, right? That whole computer miniaturization, stuff that now powers our entire civilization, happened during, during that program or, or grew out of it. So, taking out a whole new level kind of what, like, what Musk is trying to do, what Bezos is trying to do, and what others are trying to do inevitably is gonna produce technologies that we can't, we can't even really foresee at, at this point.
[00:20:13] So, in my mind, it really doesn't matter whether Elon Musk ever will set his foot on Mars, it, it really doesn't, it's all this stuff that we will discover in the process of trying to get this done.
[00:20:26] Josh DeTar: I am gonna give you the super loaded question that we already know the answer to, but so does that, is that applicable in other areas, right? Like, just bring it way back down to, right, what we do in providing digital services for community financial institutions, right, is there some learnings that can be brought from that to that?
[00:20:48] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely, and in particularly, in terms of how to motivate people, right? You have to have a vision that is, uh, clear, simple, understandable to motivate your team to, to accomplish amazing things, all right, digital transformation is not an easy thing to do, there's a, it's full with failure,
[00:21:06] there, there are wrecks everywhere, on every side of that road, right? It happen every day because either, either division was, was not something that they, the people bought into or understood, or it just wasn't enough, right? It was not enough commitment. So, so, taking, you know, I, I'm, I'm no Elon Musk, and I don't pretend to be, right,
[00:21:25] but, uh, but I, I have learned from him that having that very audacious, bold goal and pushing yourself and pushing your team to get there, you know, is very important, right? I'm never going to use, you know, his methods, like I, you know, he's this dragon dude, you know, running around it, you know, the factory floor and, and SpaceX and pushing them, you know, to work 27 hours a day to build the next rocket,
[00:21:52] like, that is not who I am, but I'm not, again, I'm not trying to build the colonial Mars, I am transforming, uh, you know, very large financial institution in a way, in a, in a pace that we can sustain, right, into something that it can and should become in order to become successful, or it, it is accelerated, but more successful,
[00:22:14] and to do that, the first and the most important factor I had to deal with this is, is people, not just the, the people that report to me, but everybody else, ultimately every single bank and credit union in this country is, is people, right? You take the people outta those buildings and, you know, of the, of that network, and this organization ceases to exist.
[00:22:35] So, you know, one, one of the books I'm reading right now, uh, in, in, in small intervals because I don't have a whole lot of time, is The Technology Fallacy, and that's what's all about, like, people tackle digital transformations sticking into the technology project that will drive the culture change,
[00:22:49] and it's exactly backwards, you have to drive the culture change first and foremost in order to accomplish your technological goals. So, that, that is something that, you know, Elon has done really well, that, you know, Jeff Bezos has done really well, and I am trying to learn from them as much as, as much as I can and apply those learnings, you know, in, in, in my situation.
[00:23:11] Josh DeTar: You know, you've used the, uh, the go-to buzzword right now, in our industry, the, the digital transformation. And I think what's been really fascinating for me hosting this podcast is just getting every unique guests' perspectives on what that means. So, what does that mean to you? What does digital transformation mean to you, maybe as a whole, and what does it mean for our industry?
[00:23:34] Jay Tkachuk: What it means, what it means to me is changing the way, let's say Golden 1, right? My employer, literally it does business, how the decisions are made, right? How people communicate with each other. So, true digital transformation always comes, always comes, you know, top down and from inside out, it is not about having the best and the slickest, uh, you know, user-facing tech, technologies, and solutions and, you know, the SNAs digital banking platform, all that stuff is important,
[00:24:05] absolutely, but it, it's just really the outcome of the actual transformation that goes on inside, you know, the, using the data to inform decisions, not, not just produce reports, but actually drive the decision making when you know that after A comes B, and after B comes C because of these things, and understanding, you know, the logic of it all. Retaining the lessons learned, you know, knowledge management is extremely important because now, especially now in this very fluid
[00:24:35] employment market when people, you know, don't, don't stick around often for longer than, you know, just a few years, capturing that brilliance and recording it why, uh, you know, the reasons why certain decisions were made and, and how particular model was set up is, is paramount because otherwise you're just starting all over again every three years,
[00:24:55] and, you know, that's not sustainable. So, it, it is truly, like, like I mentioned, changing the way, like, as an organism because every organization is an organism, how that organization ticks, it's, it's changing the rate of metabolism and how it, the neurons fire, right? And what, what victors, uh, the, the energies are, are being channeled, channeled alone.
[00:25:19] So, that's what, to me, that's what digital transformation is. So, it's moving away from paper, it's moving away, moving away from, um, sort of siloed operational organization to really value stream-based approach when, that those value streams pre-made the entire, the entire culture, and the entire organization.
[00:25:37] And, and there's, you know, logical handovers, handoffs between all the, all the touch points along the way, and everybody in any point knows what's going on. So, it's, it's almost kind of, like, I would say blockchain is a great metaphor for this because with the blockchain, you know exactly what's going on and who started, who started something, where it is right now, right, where it's going, what changes have been made.
[00:26:02] That is what digital, uh, digital organization is, and access to information and making sense of it all on the fly, in real-time, in context, is paramount because it will change how everything is, is done, right, and it will then pop all this up into a superb digital user experience to the membership.
[00:26:25] Josh DeTar: Yeah, you were saying, you know, data is super important, but you kind of have to have a mindset of what to do with it, you can get all of this incredible data out, this beautiful report that tells you all this information about maybe what your members are doing or how they're doing it, but if you don't have the culture to actually think through a business process to do something with that data, then the quote-unquote digital transformation you went through is utterly useless.
[00:26:54] Jay Tkachuk: Exactly. Well, it, it is not as a transformation at all, you just had this glitzy technology project, right, that probably will not get adopted, and the transformational effort would fail. So, that's why the pace of change is important, you know, I do see in industry all these attempts at, you know, putting timelines on transformation, saying like, "We're gonna get this done
[00:27:15] and, you know, in two years." There's no way, it's like, you know, unless you are a brilliant, brilliant people manager that knows how to change cultures in that short amount of time, I just don't think so, it's, it has to be a slow and deliberate approach, uh, so that people can adopt, people can adapt, embrace it,
[00:27:37] you know, you have to up-train and retrain your, you know, your people that, that make those decisions because ultimately the decision-making power is going to be distributed, right? We cannot have centralized decision-making in our world, in the world that is coming, right, in the world of quantum computing and, you know, all, all this other stuff that, that, that is inevitably going to happen, you know, when AI is talking to another AI about to, you know, trying to get you the best deal on, on, on a certificate, or whatever it is, right?
[00:28:06] That is coming, and we have to be prepared for that, but you, we have to foster the culture and the skill set of people to make those type of decisions and to literally own the journey for our members, you know, end-to-end because ultimately the goal of every credit union out there is to be a lifelong partner to the members that they have.
[00:28:29] And for that, you have to just, with your significant other, you have to understand who they are, what, what makes 'em tick, what drives 'em forward, you know, what vulnerabilities they have, how to build them up, right? And at the same time, they do it in a way that allows you, you know, YouTube to, uh, flourish as well.
[00:28:48] So, in, in, in advance forward, it's, it's a very delicate, very delicate process and, you know, you can probably build the technological foundation for it, uh, and relatively quickly, but it's the culture change that will be the most important components of, of everything like this.
[00:29:06] Josh DeTar: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the more that I have conversations on the podcast about digital transformation and just even off of this podcast, it's always interesting how, you know, there's always a little bit of a unique perspective to it, but I would say one of the things that seems to be pretty common is, is exactly what you're saying, right?
[00:29:24] The idea that it has to be, yes, it has everything to do with, with technology, right? And yes, if you wanted to use a really dumb example, it's taking a paper form and putting it, you know, on an iPad, but that's not, yes, it's going digital, but is it really transformative, right? And where the transformation really happens is in the culture side of things, in the people side of things, and getting people aligned to that,
[00:29:51] you know, I recently had Austin Adams on, who is the former CIO for JPMorgan Chase, and he made a comment about how the most successful technology projects are not led by technologists, they're led by the business case folks, get a business case person to sponsor your technology project, and it'll succeed,
[00:30:13] just go technology gung-ho, and it probably won't, and I think that's kind of what you were just talking about, too, right? Of yeah, sure you can, you can get this, you know, widget, this whiz-bang, this digital something, but if the culture of the organization is not prepared to actually leverage it, use it, and have it be transformative, then it's not going to be.
[00:30:34] Jay Tkachuk: No, it, it is not, right? So, that's why, you know, like at Golden 1, the first thing I did was look at the architecture and, you know, I, I liked out with the, you know, my partner in crime over there, our CIO, Chad Carrington, he, he's of the same, of the same opinion, you know, on, on this, on this topic.
[00:30:50] You have to transform the, the backbone arch, the technical architectural backbone of the company because, inevitably, the way that your architecture looks like affects the everything else downstream, including culture. So, if you have this monolithic, you know, architecture that can only move at the pace of waterfall that takes years to deploy anything, your entire culture, no matter where they are, accounting and, you know, finance, call center, is going to reflect that.
[00:31:21] So, at the same time, you know, you basically have to do those things at the same, at, in parallel, you have to change the underlying foundation to be more flexible and dynamic as you change the culture. So, it's security service, you know, my motto there was, you know, we'll suck less tomorrow, right? One step at a time, right?
[00:31:39] My motto here because, you know, my, my team is just chopping at the bit, and they want to change the world, and it is, you know, boil a frog and not the ocean, right? So, you know, fi, find the frog, a particular one, that you, you have to tackle, uh, you know, today and deal with that, right? Because change, culture change is, is a very gradual process and it's a, it's a sea change, right?
[00:32:04] And you have to do it in that pace, be like water as Bruce Lee, you know, once said, "Be like water," and, and just be persistent and, and consistent and keep pushing forward and the pace that ultimately erodes the rock and opens those new channels for you to, to go through.
[00:32:20] Josh DeTar: Totally lost my train of thought there. You give me so many good things, Jay, it can only take so notes so fast.
[00:32:26] Jay Tkachuk: I told you I'm going to rabbit holes.
[00:32:30] Josh DeTar: No, you know what I was thinking as you were talking about that is, is one of the things that I, I think is a little bit interesting in this industry and providing technology for community financial institutions is just the layers of complexity have gotten just exorbitantly more complex, right?
[00:32:48] I mean, the number of systems, the number of integrations, the number of third parties, do you build it in-house? Do you partner with somebody? Do you outsource it? And it's built in-house, but by someone else, and all of a sudden, you get these really complex, intertwined systems, speed becomes a really interesting conversation, right?
[00:33:09] Because in that equation, let's just, you know, super simplify it down and say there's three parties, there's the FI, the digital banking provider, and the core banking provider, and when you ask them, "What does fast mean to you?" And the FinTech-y digital banking provider says, "Oh, two weeks, that's our sprint cycle."
[00:33:30] And the core provider says, "Oh, you know, a year, we're a, we're a pretty quick moving agile core." And then the credit union's like, "Oh, fast to us is, like, two years, guys, like, what are you doing over here?" Right? Or, or vice versa, right, I'm picking on you a little bit here, Jay, but, you know, my point is just that I think sometimes when you get that many layers of complexity and that many parties involved, too, speed becomes a relative thing to each, each participant in that process.
[00:33:57] Jay Tkachuk: It absolutely does, uh, again, people can change only at the pace that they can change, right, and you have to be cognizant of that, and you have, and, and, and every organization is different, right? So, you know, the reason that FinTech can move so fast is because A, their architectures are very simple
[00:34:12] because they, they build them from scratch, they have no legacy, like, there's no, there's no technological debt that they have, but at the same time, they are, most of them at least, are one-trick ponies, right? They have one thing that they do really well, right? They're specialists at, in that, and they don't do anything else, you know, or either well or at all.
[00:34:31] Credit unions, uh, are, you know, tend to be full, full feature shops, you know, full retail, you know, or even business products, and we try to serve everyone, right? And, and it is in our DNA to be very member-focused and member-centric to bend our backwards to solve the problem, and everything else is sort of, historically has been secondary,
[00:34:54] like, yes, we need, we need technology to sort of allow us to do what we do, right, but we're not gonna compete, uh, with, with the challengers on technology or on user experience. Well, those days unfortunately, are, are gone, right? Because when it was, uh, be, before the internet, it was all about, uh, face-to-face banking
[00:35:14] and great unions excelled at that. Now, now that technology is here, especially, you know, after the pandemic where we were stuck at home for so long, and the digital shift finally has happened without unfortunately when being the catalyst, we're faced with a world where, uh, we have to compete, where we have to compete on, on the level of, of user experience and, and feature sets that, you know, that top banks have
[00:35:43] because inevitably, that's who we're being compared to, and everybody in our industry inevitably is being compared to Amazon or Google or, you know, Apple because, you know, the Jacob's law is in full effect, right? The, the experiences on, on with one leading, leading edge, and very, very popular provider, inevitably effective everything else,
[00:36:05] and, and people expect that, that level of service, you know, they expect the, the Netflix level of experience from the credit union, and that requires us to completely, uh, uh, you know, review everything that we have done, all the decisions that go back, you know, decades with core providers, to architectures, to whatever is now up for grabs.
[00:36:26] Ultimately, like, you have to make rational decisions, and I'm not gonna say that, you know, everybody go in and re, re-platform your core, like, immediately to, you know, something new and, and awesome because, uh, that is a very dangerous, that's a very, very dangerous thing to do, so.
[00:36:41] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, if you were gonna say that, you'd be like,
[00:36:43] Jay Tkachuk: I'm not gonna say that.
[00:36:44] Josh DeTar: Jay Tkachuk, core banking salesperson of the year.
[00:36:46] Jay Tkachuk: No, I'm, I'm not gonna say that, but there are a lot of other things that you can do, you can, you can wrap your aging core into, in a, in a layer of, of, uh, middleware and basically offload all the functions ov, over time to, to ensure that you remain competitive, that you provide that level of flexibility and dynamicism to your organization.
[00:37:06] So, it, you know, as you mentioned it, it used to take a year to two years for a technology project like implementing digital banking in a credit union. Well, nowadays with the modern middleware, you can do that in just a few months, maybe even less, right? And it's, it is paramount for IT, uh, departments to evolve into organizations that stay ahead of business, right?
[00:37:32] As long as they can, they can change their mindset and evolve into organizations that are, understand what business wants and what business is, where business is heading, and be able to provide that, that level of, of service to, to their constituents, we, we will win, and that's, you know, luckily I am seeing that shift,
[00:37:51] it's not everywhere, you know, as, as Gibson said, "Fisher is here, but not uniformally distributed," it, it, that is very true, uh, you know, some are much better than others at this, but it is happening, and it is very, uh, very encouraging.
[00:38:08] Josh DeTar: Well, it kind of goes back to what you were talking about at the very beginning with the war on Ukraine, right? And how conflict can be a change engine, and the pandemic was conflict, right? And it caused us to have to evolve and to innovate, and it, you know, obviously based on the nuances of what the pandemic actually meant, and it meant, you know, people had to separate from each other and from physical locations and spaces.
[00:38:34] So, obviously, that was a huge digital catalyst, right? If it had been a different type of pandemic, maybe it, you know, would've gone the other way, I don't know if there's a pandemic where you, like, have to be super close to people, but, you know, maybe that would've slowed down digital, but irregardless, right, like, the conflict was a catalyst for change in that regard.
[00:38:53] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely. And honestly, if you look at just us as a, as species, right, we evolve only during the time of, of stress of some sort, right? That's when we are at our best, frankly, that's where our, uh, creativity and flexibility of our, of our, our minds comes, comes to play. Unfortunately, that means because of our nature, that's, you know, the wars and pandemics and whatever happens, right?
[00:39:21] And the climate crisis now that we're, that we're dealing with, but the human nature, even look at the pandemic is such an awful, awful time, but at the same time, it's, it's profoundly change, changed our society and in a way that I think will be quite beneficial long term, right? A lot more people became aware of how, how biology, like, microbiology works, right?
[00:39:45] I expect that the, you know, right now it's, it's probably too early, but the microbiology field is going to flourish after this. So, we will learn a lot, a lot of new things, even, even with the human body, I think in the last few years, like, we thought we know everything about our own anatomy and apparently we, we don't, we have been, we have been discovering, like, whole new parts of, of what makes us us, right, from brain membranes to this connective tissue that's, covers our antibodies,
[00:40:14] I mean, all this stuff is, is fascinating, and it was pushed forward by something like pandemic, right? So, it is who it, we are who we are, we are, we are a species that is pushed, you know, probably back in the day when we were just basically primates, some sort of a climatic event pushed us into savannahs out of the forest and ultimately made us, us, right?
[00:40:38] So, that's the, that's the genetics that we have, we are explorers, we, we will strive to survive, we're survivors, right? And we, unfortunately, need to have such events of stress to, to make us better, make us evolve, right? And half the time, we create them ourselves, unfortunately, as a species,
[00:40:59] but ultimately, it makes us better, I mean, I mean, back to politics, right? Without World War II, the European Union would not exist, and looking at that, you know, it's not perfect by instructional imagination, but it is whole lot better what, what came before it. So, and it brought level of prosperity to the European continent, not experienced there bef, you know, prior.
[00:41:21] So, it's a great example that change, positive change, is possible on a massive scale, and I expect that as, as a, again, as we evolve as the species and society will have, will see more and more of that.
[00:41:33] Josh DeTar: I think I've used this example in the past, but, you know, one of the examples that I, uh, one of the things that I've been looking at a lot lately, just in my personal side of things is how much actually introducing some adversity into your life can actually provide for some significant positive benefits, right?
[00:41:53] So, I mean, even just little things like cold plunges or being in a sauna for 30 minutes, um, you know, actually putting your body through stress. It is interesting you were talking about how you know, we, we, we almost strive for conflict, right? Like, we need some sort of conflict in our lives because otherwise, it's kind of boring,
[00:42:10] it's why is reality television so popular 'cause people love the conflict, right? But, but it, when used properly, it can, it can be a catalyst for positive growth and change, and, you know, the example is, I just, I found it fascinating when they were doing the biodome experiment, right? They couldn't figure out why they couldn't grow trees tall, they would get to a certain point and they'd just fall over.
[00:42:35] And what they realized was the biodome was so controlled, there was no wind. And so, the trees never learned that they had to grow deep roots and get strong to deal with wind. And so, when they got to a certain point in height, their weight just took over with gravity, and they toppled over,
[00:42:54] but as soon as they introduced wind, the trees learned to deal with wind, as they grew, they got deeper roots, they got stronger, and they grew tall, right? So, what kinds of things do you almost see as, um, some positive adversity in our industry right now that you think could be some catalysts for some cool change?
[00:43:15] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, what was the question?
[00:43:17] Josh DeTar: Yeah, no, no pressure.
[00:43:18] Jay Tkachuk: No pressure.
[00:43:19] Josh DeTar: Just, I was kind of hoping you would just have all the answers for us, Jay.
[00:43:21] Jay Tkachuk: Sure, uh, just gimme a moment. Well, we are, you know, obviously we are operating in a very saturated and very competitive environment, I mean, social media has become something that's bombarding us and, and, and marketing, too, right, bombarding us with, with information on, on a scale that is, has not been seen before, ever.
[00:43:40] I think that I, I saw somewhere some statistic that a, a person today is exposed to, like, hundreds of ads a day, right? More, like, multiple times, more than, you know, our, our parents were exposed in, like, 1980s, right? It just, the amount of information that is coming, does is this huge wave, like, wall of noise that is, that is, surrounds us, is making those connections that, that we're trying to build with, with our members as great unions.
[00:44:10] Quite difficult, right? And also, you know, like, social media because of what it has evolved into, and I'm not gonna, you know, beat them up too much about it because it is what it is, but it has evolved into, into something that has eroded of trust in, in, in entities other than yourself, right? It made us more individualistic, it made us more egotistical, frankly.
[00:44:34] It has eroded of trust in others, like, it has eroded trust in the government, it has eroded trust in, in financial institutions or, or democratic institution or legislative institutions. And so, you know, breaching that, A, punching your signal through that wall of noise is extremely difficult, but you have to be, you have to be relevant at the moment of need.
[00:44:57] And that requires the digital transformation that we just talked about, right? But also requires the mastery of, of data and content delivery and content creation that has not been, you know, it's completely unprecedented. So, we have to accomplish all of that and at the same time overcome this, uh, this negative bias and lack of trust that our world now is full of, right?
[00:45:22] So, those, to me, are the greatest challenges that we face today because new generations that's, you know, that, that have come up, A, they have been battered more than our generation, I know with the Greater Recession.So, there, there is that, but also the, you know, the, the, again, the social media, the being surrounded by, by the voices that, you know, unfiltered, that just say whatever it is, because there's no, there's no negative repercussions,
[00:45:51] you know, everybody is, is screaming the, there's no inner monologue anymore, it's just being projected, you know, uh, in and outwards, and there's a good reason why, by people that, you know, that didn't have an inner monologue, historically didn't survive, right? Because it's, it typically the stuff that comes out is all not, not all that great or pretty or social acceptable, so now we're facing
[00:46:17] Josh DeTar: What was the recent, Mike Tyson made a comment a while ago, something to the effect of, like, "We live in a day and age where people forget what it's like, what it's like to get popped in the nose for saying something stupid."
[00:46:28] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, exactly, right?
[00:46:30] Josh DeTar: Not, not advocating violence for saying things, but, you know.
[00:46:34] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, you know, but I'm not, even though, you know, I used to be a martial artist, right? Violence is, is not the answer, but at the same time, sometimes it, it can be, right? I would say that violence, when people say to me that violence is not, is not a solution to anything, I, I always counter with, and when appropriate, insufficient violence is, is not the answer to everything.
[00:46:58] But if you apply just the right amount, right, when the, when the bully has cornered you right, and is, is pushing you to the brink, it's probably a good, good time to just hit him straight in the nose, right, and knock him down because you know that if you do it just right with enough force, there'll not be a second time that this is gonna happen.
[00:47:21] So, so, yeah, I mean, ba, ba, but back to your question, right? It, it's the noise, it's the noise and the lack of trust and sort of this, this inclusion dehumanization of our relationships that is sort of happening or organically or being pushed by the algorithms that are, you know, imposed on us by, by the social media and search companies that is a problem, right?
[00:47:43] And there's also, like, the, you know, the crypto winter that is happening, which is, you know, was completely self-inflicted by the crypto industry, and, and honestly, it's kind of a natural thing, like, there's a, like with everything, there is a wild west moment of, of stuff, right? Something happens, it's, it's cool and it's great and it's sexy, and everyone's jumping on that bandwagon,
[00:48:03] lots of innovation happens. And inevitably, just like a biology in technology, there is, there's a calling of the herd that happens is, you know, you have to arrive in equilibrium and homeostasis that's sustainable long term. So, that's what we're seeing in that industry, you know, in digital banking, that's, I think, already sort of happened more or less,
[00:48:25] now it is the other stuff that is, that needs to happen underneath the digital banking level to, to make sure that the experiences that, that, again, that are provided to, to the membership or to in the prospects are not only, you know, awesome, but they have that human factor that, that we're now so solely lack in our other digital interactions.
[00:48:51] Josh DeTar: You know, I asked you to answer all the world's questions, and, uh, I didn't expect you to absolutely have it, but I felt like one of the things that you said was really, really well said and, and really pertinent, you said relevant at the time of need, and I think that is something that's, a lot of folks in our industry are trying to figure out what that means and what that looks like for a community financial institution right now, right?
[00:49:15] And you kind of even referenced earlier some of the, you know, FinTech, neobank, niche service providers, right? It's really easy to be really, really good at something when you only do one thing. Community financial institutions don't just do one thing, you guys do a lot of things. And so, trying to do a lot of things really well and then be able to cut through all the noise and be able to not just, maybe you are relevant at the time of need, but they don't even know it.
[00:49:43] So, getting all of those things to line up whereas, you know, the example that's been used on the podcast in the past is, you know, the, the neobank for doctors that just graduated college, like, that's it, we just service, if you just graduated med school, we are your bank, right? Super, super focused, super target, you know, targeted audience. So, they're able to be a lot more relevant at the time of need,
[00:50:09] like, that's literally in their saying like, "Hey, did you just graduate med school? We're relevant in your time of need." Right? But for, for somebody like Golden 1, that's gonna be a lot more difficult, right? You serve a much more, um, diverse demographic of members. So, how do you look at being relevant at the time of need when you're an institution like Golden 1?
[00:50:33] Jay Tkachuk: So, first of all, you have to understand what, you know, what the membership looks like, right? There's all kinds of assumptions that are flying all over the place and in the industry in general, right? People, people think that years of, uh, you know, working in branches or the call center or just dealing with the membership give you perfect insight into what, who your members actually are,
[00:50:54] and that's only partially true. So, what has, you have to get out of the building, and you have to go into the field and conduct studies, you have to actually meet your membership and understand who they are, what kind of natural segments to sort of fall into in terms of needs that they have, how they, how they bank, what kind of gaps they have.
[00:51:13] So, things like jobs to be done studies are paramount, you, you just have to understand your, your membership in context. Now, you can use modern technologies like AI, uh, to analyze your entire membership database, right? And understand what natural segments exist within it, but after that, you have to go out and actually meet these people,
[00:51:36] you have to understand, again, who they are, how they bank, what kind of products they use, why they use those products, where, you know, what gaps that they have, what, you know, and ultimately, give them what they need and not what they want, right? Because it is that, um, uh, it is that factor of understanding, in order to, to be relevant in a time of need, you have to understand what that need is and have to be able to predict when that time will be, right, so you can prepare for it.
[00:52:03] The only way to do that is, is to gain a profound understanding of your membership down to, you know, micro-segmentation of saying, like, these people that, you know, whether this particular, not this particular age range and particular technographic and, you know, demographic and geo, geographic areas have this particular needs,
[00:52:26] so, today, let's say they're college students and they have this set of needs, but a year from now they'll be young professionals and, you know, they'll start looking for their, their, their first cars and the first houses, and three years from now or five years from now, they're gonna get married, and they're gonna, you know, you have to understand that entire evolution,
[00:52:43] at least be able to predict enough of it based on, on what the information you have, and once you deploy it, you know, again, you have to be able to learn from your lessons and at, tweak, tweak at things as you, as you deploy 'em. It is impossible to do that across the scale of, like, something like Golden 1,
[00:53:04] it is, it is impossible, right? I would say it's impossible to do it even on a much smaller scale for smaller credit unions, you have to pick something and focus on that. So, uh, Golden 1 is actually a great example of this, even though it's a huge bank, right, but Golden 1 is, is known for one product, credit cards,
[00:53:23] they are amazing at credit cards, they have checking accounts and certificates and money markets and, you know, whatever else, they have all of that, right? And they, and they do it decently well, but they excel at credit cards. So, and I'm not advocating at the Golden 1's gonna become like the, you know, capital one of credit cards,
[00:53:44] but we will focus, you know, we, we do understand what our flagship products are that are important to us strategically, we will focus on those and, and we will, we will learn our lessons dealing with them through the studies that I mentioned through experimentation and technology, right? We will, we will go out and we'll meet our members and we'll, we'll interact with them, you know, we'll learn as much as possible.
[00:54:07] We also know that what, this stuff will have to continue, it's, it's a repeating cycle, we cannot, we can never stop learning because the world that our members live in, that we live in constantly is, evolves, right? It's, it's never-ending. So, you never know what's, uh, you know, I don't know, Apple will come up tomorrow with telepathic, you know, virtual reality or something, and, and the world will change
[00:54:30] and we have to be prepared for that. But at the same time, we have to, we have to be, uh, reasonable and not, not, not chase the new shiny, kind of, like, what happened with the Metaverse, right? Metaverse was this, is it gonna happen at some point? Yes. Is it gonna happen tomorrow? No, at all, right? It's, it's glitter wear at this point, right?
[00:54:50] It's, uh, kind of like Musk, uh, the Mars colonization idea, right? The time, whose time has not come, it's the, technology is not here, the benefit is not here, we, and frankly, we as people don't need it, right? There is no killer app that came with it, at some point, there will be, but it doesn't exist today.
[00:55:08] So, all those people that jump on the, on the Metaverse bandwagon or the crypto bandwagon, right, in the, in the financial service, services industry, right, spent a ton of resources and time on, on chasing that, and I'm not sure that it was the time well spent, right? There, there's probably, yeah, they probably have learned things, but I bet they could have, they could have applied the, the same resources to doing so many more productive, frankly, right? And focus on something that is very relevant to their business models today or tomorrow.
[00:55:40] Josh DeTar: I think that's a really good point, Jay, you know, that's a conversation, it was really interesting, we had a lot of conversations with, you know, our customers through kind of the crypto craze, right? And we had a lot of customers that were thinking about, you know, do we do something with, you know, offering buy, sell, hold crypto in digital banking?
[00:55:59] And, you know, ultimately, the question I always had with them was, why are, why would you do it, right? And if the answer is because it's on the news a lot, or because the institution down the street from us did it, is that really the right answer? Because, you know, I kind of used the simple example of what, what is crypto in that sense, right? If you're just offering buy, sell, hold, it's an investment.
[00:56:28] Okay. So, if it's an investment, well, there's been this other thing called the stock market, uh, lots of other ways to invest for, for a really long time, I mean, you, you haven't done anything there, so why would you go do this shiny thing if you haven't even done the thing that's been around forever and has proved itself it's not going anywhere, right? Maybe offer micro-investing in digital banking before offering crypto, right?
[00:56:57] Jay Tkachuk: A, absolutely, right, this, the, again, the new shiny syndrome is alive and well in our industry and, uh, uh, I challenge everyone that, you know, when people bring up request or projects or whatever ideas is, you have to clearly define the problem you're trying to solve down to the level of three whys, if you cannot answer the, the three-why question, you know, in, in, in the sequence, it is probably not worth doing,
[00:57:22] it's, it's not, or if it is, you haven't thought it through yet, right? To the, to the level that it makes sense for, uh, uh, to be tackled. So, yeah crypto is, is one of those things, yeah, it, it, it definitely was sexy, right? And in the news, uh, half the time for the wrong reasons, but the reason why people wanted that was, why they, the membership, wanted that, right?
[00:57:45] They, they did not trust the exchanges, they wanted somebody that they do trust to hold their cryptocurrency forum. Now, as an institution, you have to make a decision, is this something that is worth spending your trust currency on, right? Because you have to spend at capital, you only have a limited amount of it,
[00:58:04] and if you have to experiment and push your business model forward, is this one of those things? And in my mind, you know, I have thought about that, too, right? It, it, I have, I have had those conversations, uh, as well, in my mind it was not, right, it's, the shake-up would inevitably happen, right, it's happening now.
[00:58:22] Um, and yes, I understand the need for security and safety, but it is completely unregulated market, right, and, and we as a creative union cannot, like, outside of cybersecurity and cannot protecting you from the thieves, right, from the cybercriminals, there is no value at it, it is not what we do, right? So, there are other people, um, in the crypto industry that, that solve the cybercrime issue much better than we do. So, to me, it just didn't make business sense to dive in into that pool.
[00:58:56] Josh DeTar: Do you think this is an example of, uh, Elon shooting for colonizing Mars, though, and there's gonna be a lot of learnings that we take out of the crypto base?
[00:59:07] Jay Tkachuk: So, crypto, like, crypto, some crypto has, uh, I would say it, it depends, right? So, so, Bitcoin, and like, Ether, the actual, they have actual utility now, a lot of that utility, especially in the Bitcoin space is, you know, cybercrime and, and, and, uh, uh, just sort of the shadow economy transactions, but it's still utility, right?
[00:59:29] There's some use that, that it provides, like, all this other stuff, like, uh, you know, Shiba and, and others and, you know, the Dodgecoin it is a great example, right? I, I'm struggling to see how these are just not outright pyramid schemes, right? It, it just, there's no utility there, like, this thing that, that, that is out there has no intrinsic value whatsoever, right?
[00:59:53] It's that the value is based purely on, on what people are willing to pay for it. So, like, NFT is another example, like, as the concept, I think it's, it's, it's probably way ahead of its time, yes, there will be digital art and, and other assets that will be uniquely owned, right? And all that stuff is gonna shake out in the next, uh, couple of de, decades.
[01:00:14] But today there's no interesting value, right? There's, it just, it's not unique or valuable enough to, to be of any use whatsoever. So, other than breaking rights, well, you know, that, that's not, that's just not, not valuable to me, uh, personally or as a business leader. So, it just depends, right?
[01:00:33] I think that, uh, inevitably, we will, we will evolve into digital-first economy, right? We will have digital currencies that are like national Fiats, that, that, that digital, that will learn, take the learnings from the crypto world that we have today, and we'll have something that will be quite useful to the people, to the population, you know, in general to, to, to businesses, right?
[01:00:55] Our world, uh, you know, the payment world will become frictionless, you'll be able to, to buy stuff on the other side of the planet, you know, very easily and, and smoothly and seamlessly, and, and it's gonna be awesome, right, and we're evolving towards that. So, we just, right now, we're in this initial awkward stage where, where innovation is, is, is advancing in a very rapid pace, and like a Cambrian period in a, in a, in, in, in the evolution of life, right?
[01:01:23] There's all this stuff that's happening that's very exciting, but very little of it is going to survive, we're kind of like there with crypto, it's, it's, you know, uh, I'm, I'm really excited to, you know, to see what Crypto 2.0 is going to look like, and then Crypto 3.0 is gonna look like because I think when we get outta the 3.0 is when the world will change significantly.
[01:01:44] And, and when, when we look back, we were like, why were we carrying this piece of paper in our pockets? Like, well, you know, kind of like we, we look back in the, uh, you know, a thousand years, uh, ago in, in the past when people were carrying gold coins in their pockets, right? Which was heavy and dangerous because you could get marked at any moment, and then you, you know, you lose your entire wealth, right?
[01:02:09] So, inevitably, that's, you know, our kids are gonna look, think about us using cash at some point, but we're not quite there. So, I'm waiting for that, you know, killer app and the utility factor to increase, it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.
[01:02:27] Josh DeTar: Yeah, it's the, the killer app, the killer feature, right, they talk about it a lot in the catalyst for re, mobile banking really taking off, right, was remote deposit capture.
[01:02:37] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely.
[01:02:37] Josh DeTar: And suddenly, you have that one feature where people are like, "Oh, this clicks, like, this, this is the thing I was looking for I didn't know I needed."
[01:02:45] Jay Tkachuk: Because it solved a major pain, you didn't have to now, you know, drive to the uh, the branch to deposit, you stayed, stay in line, you know, wait in line, you know, waste your entire lunch hour on this, you know, it's all the significant friction point. So, something like this has to happen with emerging, uh, evolve or rapidly evolving, feels like crypto, for instance.
[01:03:08] Uh, now, even digital banking, right? Digital banking, like, mobile banking and online banking have been around for two decades now, or close to that, right? One is the next killer app, right, mobile check deposit has, has sort of, you know, it has evolved to where it can evolve, that, that's it, right? So, like, what, what is next?
[01:03:29] I don't think that crypto is, is that, I'm sure that I know right now what it is, but I think it's that delivery of content or personalized information at a time of need is going to be that, but that just require us a much greater technological leap and, and cultural shift, uh, to enable that, you know, to happen.
[01:03:50] Because mobile check deposit was really a technology shift, like, the, culturally, it's, uh, you know, in terms of the actual, uh, working cultures, it didn't change things a whole lot. Now that we live in a much more complicated world, uh, the next whatever killer app is going to be in digital banking is gonna be that much more complicated to accomplish.
[01:04:13] Josh DeTar: What do you think, what do you think it'll take to kind of be that next catalyst for looking for the next killer app?
[01:04:21] Jay Tkachuk: Well, it needs to solve, it needs to solve not just a, a major friction point, and we have gotten, by the way, really good at removing friction from digital transactions, right? Self-service transactions are
[01:04:32] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[01:04:33] Jay Tkachuk: by and large, but the friction exists, it's mostly because it's there by design, right? In terms of fraud prevention and velocity of money and all that, all that jazz, right? So, it has to, not just solve something that, the friction exists, but is, it has to address a need that our membership, our user base doesn't, probably doesn't even know it has because until mobile check deposit, everyone was happy, you know, or happy enough to go drive to the branch or deposit it an ATM, right?
[01:05:02] They didn't even consider using their, their smartphones for something like this. So, whatever is, like, it's hard to, it's hard to say what that's going to be because we have gotten so good at this, right? We have gotten so good at understanding what those self-service use cases are and solving it for the, for the general masses.
[01:05:22] Now, doing that on a personal level is gonna be much more difficult, and maybe, and now, and that's, that's just me hypothesizing, right, it is the evolution of the AI, like when we, when, to the point where when we get, uh, our individual virtual assistants that all are always with us, that live on our smart devices, well, actually they live in our homes, really, well,
[01:05:47] like, what, the thing is gonna happen is we're gonna evolve when your home is sort of the hub for your personal AI, and it will travel will you, with you, whatever, you know, wherever you, you go, jumping from your smart, smartphone into your car can take over, taking over the appropriate hardware within, within your vehicle, and so on so forth.
[01:06:10] And that AI learning how you work, how, what makes you tick, what makes your family tick, right, how to keep you safe, and how to improve and evolve your financial well-being, how that virtual assistant will interact with its counterparts in credit unions, in, you know, in banks and everywhere else, I think, you know, ordering pizza and whatever, right?
[01:06:32] All of that is going to, is going to world where humans are gonna start talking less to each other, and it's gonna be a lot, a lot more AI talking to each other, and then AI interpreting that information to humans, to me, that's probably what's gonna happen next, and it's gonna be the next killer, killer app, but we are, we're some years away from that.
[01:06:53] Josh DeTar: I was kind of hoping you were gonna talk about that, you, you've mentioned AI a few times, I was like, man, if I don't, I'd be a terrible host if I didn't get you to talk a little bit about what you're looking at in AI. You know, it's interesting, you were bringing up the, you know, personal assistant thing, too. So, I was driving him back home last night, he's in town, and he is staying at house, and he came over for dinner, and I was driving him home, and we were talking about voice banking, and he was like, "Man, I still just, I still hold out hope." He's like, "I, you know, it just makes so much sense for me,
[01:07:26] I'm in the car, I got nowhere to go, I'm stuck, I wanna be productive, man, wouldn't it be nice to just be able to get some of my banking done." And he was like, "You know, think about being able to move from your house to your car, to your screen, to your, and your virtual assistant just walks you through and is helping you move money, pay bills, do the things that you need to do, the transactional elements of banking."
[01:07:53] And I couldn't help but think about, you know, what you were talking about with, like, the Metaverse and things, it just, it didn't have the, it wasn't the killer app, it just wasn't quite enough to get the adoption that it needed, people weren't quite ready for it. Will it ever happen? I don't know, but, you know, we're kind of in that infancy stage of our personal assistance, we have, you know, Alexa and we have Siri, and, um, they're in our homes and they're in our cars, and they're in our phones, but it's not quite there yet.
[01:08:22] Jay Tkachuk: Well, it's because we have Alexa and Google Assistant and Siri, right? Our, there is none of them that we trust, like, none of them is ours, like, yours, right? There is, there is no AI assistant that lives in justice home, right, and you know that it has been trained to have your interest in mind, and it knows everything about you, and it knows how you work, and it knows, you know, it knows what kind of coffee you like, right, in the morning and it,
[01:08:50] Josh DeTar: All of it.
[01:08:50] Jay Tkachuk: you know, all of it, exactly, but
[01:08:52] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[01:08:53] Jay Tkachuk: you know, but, but it, it knows these things, it knows how, how you work. So, it knows that, it knows that, you know, hey, you are stuck in traffic, so, hey, you know, there's, bills are due,
[01:09:02] how about, like, do you want me to help you deal with this, right? Today you have to interact with the variety of virtual assistants, all of which are very shallow, and none of whom, none of, none of whom, none of which that you trust, right, right? I wouldn't trust Alexa with paying my bills because I know that it's Amazon behind Alexa, right?
[01:09:23] I have no problem with Alexa itself, I have a problem with Amazon having access to all my stuff, right? Same thing what goes with Siri, same thing goes with Google Assistant, or any other, you know, conversational AI, which is why it, it has failed is because that's exactly what those companies wanted to accomplish, but they never managed to cultivate the level of trust because ultimately it is these assistance have to live with you,
[01:09:47] they have to almost become like a part of your household, right? Even in terms of tangible, physical stuff that you can touch, right, some sort of a central hub where that thing lives, and it only lives there.
[01:09:59] Josh DeTar: I'm ready for my Iron Man suit and Jarvis.
[01:10:02] Jay Tkachuk: There, there you go, exactly.
[01:10:03] Josh DeTar: Sign me up. I'm, I'm in on the prototype, man.
[01:10:05] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, me, me too, exactly, Jarvis is awesome, right? But we're not there yet, uh, and until, until we are, it's, everything's gonna be human-driven and, uh, yes, we will evolve towards where, uh, you know, society where AI augments a lot of things you do, it does not happen right now, you know, because what, the attempt was go consumer, go retail, right,
[01:10:27] go, uh, like mass, mass market, right? But go very broad, but very shallow, that approach has failed. I think that eventually what's gonna happen is it's actually gonna go from the other side, from at work, you're gonna go to work, and at work, you're gonna have a personal AI system that understands the kind of work you do and will help you or assist you and augment you like,
[01:10:48] you know, instead of flipping through Tableau dashboards, right, you will just come in and like, "Jarvis, like, what is, what is going on today?" And the Jarvis will say, "Well, you know, online banking is melting down, but, you know, whatever is, everything else is great, so, you know," or, "You have this meeting spending your decisions," or whatever it is, right? So, that is gonna happen there first, and from there is going to evolve into something that actually lives with us in our homes.
[01:11:17] Josh DeTar: How much have you played around with ChatGPT?
[01:11:20] Jay Tkachuk: Uh, a bit, you know, and I, I have played about, played with it, and I have to say it is a, an impressive platform and what, what it can do, but the most sur, well, I guess I can't say it's more surprising, but the society we live in, but just amount of, of, of hype in terms of, oh my God, this thing is gonna, like, take our jobs or it's, it's sentient or whatever,
[01:11:42] like, I find that somewhat chemical, honestly, it's like, we, we're facing a moment where we have gotten these things, like, the machine learning platforms that we have, like, we call it AI, but it's, it's very narrow AI, right? It, it doesn't think, right, it, it only spits out stuff that we have trained it to process.
[01:12:04] So, it's kind of like a, a mirror test, right? In, in psychology and anthropology, you have this mirror test when you test whether particular animal or, uh, you know, has a sense of self and can actually recognize itself the first time it sees itself in the mirror. We are going through something similar at this moment in time with that,
[01:12:24] we have created these things that are incredibly good at mimicking how we talk and how we interact, right, with no back thought of their own whatsoever, and it's, it's frankly starting to create, like, a, a minor hysteria in, in the society, like, like, wow, you know, these things are so smart and, you know, yeah, it is gonna, it's gonna come for our jobs,
[01:12:47] it's gonna do this, it's gonna do that, you know, ChatGPT is gonna, first is going to start writing all the college essays, you know, so students are not gonna learn anything, you know, the next thing is going, is gonna start teaching all the, all the college classes. And so, is it gonna be some of that? Yes,
[01:13:02] right? Is it actually going to disrupt whole, whole, you know, the way we live? I don't think so, it's, it's the next evolution of search, it's gonna make search much more convenient and informative. It'll be interesting to see how they're gonna deal with biases because, uh, you know, uh, when Zuckerberg said, like, back in the day that a dying squirrel in front of your house is more relevant to you than, you know, kids going hungry in Africa,
[01:13:27] like, then I knew it's gonna be trouble, I didn't, couldn't dissipate with just the, the scale of trouble we're gonna end up in where we are today with the info bubbles that surround us, each, each and every one of us, and there is no single source of truth anymore, and then, you know, alternative facts and all that jazz.
[01:13:45] So, I hope that, that these new tools are gonna do away with some of that because they're being trained on a much more massive dataset. And so, those, those biases that we're now aware exist will, will be worked out. And so, we, at least, return to living in the same factual reality, right? We can still have disagreements about stuff, and that's, that's normal, debate is great, right?
[01:14:09] But we, we can be civil about it and, and be, uh, we can at least, it, stem from the same reality, right? So, we, we're discussing the same things, it's just our opinions differ. So, now, so change in optimization is gonna get very interesting once this thing start to roll out because it's a, it's a, that's a sea change, right?
[01:14:28] That's, that's a completely, complete new approach to how search engine's ranking is gonna work. So, we need to get, get ahead of that, right, there's, there's some noise about, you know, semantic SEO and whatever, like, preparing for virtual assistance to, you know, to crawl your website, that is coming, too,
[01:14:45] but that, that's, that's farther off, like, right now, we need to prepare for the, uh, ChatGPT or, you know, Google's lambda, uh, driven change to how rankings work and how, uh, so that we can maintain and, not being improve, just maintain how the rankings that we already have because the, this thing, this thing is gonna disrupt everything
[01:15:04] how, in the search industry. So, like, I don't buy into the hype, right, you know, Elon Musk said that AI's gonna destroy us, possibly, right, if, if somebody's stupid enough to train the AI we have today and doing nothing but killing people, yeah, it's gonna get really good at killing people, I just hope that we're not that stupid as a species to do something like this, but it's not gonna do it by itself.
[01:15:27] Josh DeTar: Yeah, that's, you know, there's, it's always the person behind the machine, right, who wrote the code.
[01:15:32] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely. Yep.
[01:15:33] Josh DeTar: And, and it is really interesting thinking about, um, you know, like the trolley car scenario, right? And trying to think through, okay, how do we teach this AI, you know, if you, you know, pull the lever, the trolley goes left, and it kills a baby,
[01:15:50] but if you don't pull the lever, it keeps going straight, and it kills 10 elderly people, like, who trains it, how to decide what to do it, you know, it's, I dunno, I guess I'm glad I'm not the one having to do it.
[01:16:03] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, exactly. So, well, but we're still, we're still thinking those terms that, you know, AI has to make that decision, that split decision, right? Because we, we're projecting our human limitations onto it, because we can only see a certain amount of distance ahead, right? We, we have a certain amount, certain detention span, we have, we have in the auditory limitations,
[01:16:24] we, we, you know, AI does, doesn't, doesn't have those, it can see a lot farther than we, it can see through walls if we give that, that ability, it can run predictive modeling much faster and a much massive scale than we do. So, I don't think we're gonna be, if we do this right, we're gonna be in a situation when AI has to make that decision because it'll see it happening way in advance, it'll make preventative actions that, that will basically prevent it from even making this decision.
[01:16:55] Josh DeTar: Interesting. Yeah, it is just, it's, it's really cool to see how it's evolving and how it's, just kind of coming into our life, and like you said, uh, I think one of the early, early areas we're gonna see some disruption from that is things like search engine optimization, it was actually really interesting,
[01:17:11] I was, um, with Siva yesterday, and he was saying he had to take his car to the, um, DEQ, to get DEQ, and like, super long line, but apparently they had a, like, do-it-yourself station, you just had to plug it into the OBD two port, and Siva was like, "I'm not a car person, I don't know where this OBD two port is."
[01:17:32] So, he started googling and, you know, he kept putting in, you know, "2015 Hyundai, like, where's the OBD port," and show me an image and couldn't find it and couldn't find it, and tried to watch a YouTube video and it was a different model, and finally he gave up, and he just went to ChatGPT, and he said, "Give me step-by-step directions for how to find the OBD two port in this car." And it literally gave him perfect step-by-step instructions, and he found it in 10 seconds, plugged it in, and away he went, and he was like, "Ah, that's pretty cool."
[01:18:07] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, it is. The, the ability of these things to synthesize information that is consumable, you know, by us, uh, is, is great, right? So, I, I'm actually looking forward to, to search being that smart because today you get, uh, you get this, you know, a number of, uh, of results that you have to make sense of, right?
[01:18:30] With ChatGPT or, or something similar, it'll actually give you the answer, it not make you look through things, it'll actually give you the answer, and, and that is something that I'm looking forward to, not just in a general search, but I'll say things like knowledge management within companies, right? How many times you have to look for a procedure, right?
[01:18:49] And it spits out this PDF document that you, and you have to now fish for the answer, where something like this can actually tell you what, what it is that you're looking for within, like, 30 seconds or less, like, here it is, you know, in a, in a very consumable bite-size information that it leads you exactly to what you need to accomplish.
[01:19:09] Josh DeTar: Yeah, yeah, it was really interesting. The other example Siva was given me that he used of just how impressive it is at synthesizing data and then just using technology for some of the things that typically we would've relied on, would've been a very unique skill set from a human. So, I, you know, Siva, I apologize when you listen to this, if I get the story wrong, but it's something to the effect of he had to, um, create a legal contract for something, for his dad's estate back in India. And so, one, he needed to create this very specific legal document, and then two, it actually had to be in his native tongue.
[01:19:45] Jay Tkachuk: Mm-hmm.
[01:19:46] Josh DeTar: So, he actually went to ChatGPT and said, "This is exactly what I need this contract, this is the guts that I need this contract to have in it." And he said it spit out something like 95% there.
[01:19:57] He just had to make a few minor tweaks, a few, like, some of the areas didn't quite sound human or quite correct legal language, he had to make a few tweaks, he was like, "But the bones were there, it saved me hours." And then he just took that and put it into Google Translate and Google Translate translated it to his native tongue, almost flawlessly.
[01:20:18] Again, couple minor tweaks, and he was done, he said this was a thing that probably should have taken him all day, and it ended up taking him, like, 20 minutes to do.
[01:20:27] Jay Tkachuk: Yes. The, the productivity boost that these technologies bring to us are, you know, is amazing, we just have to learn how to use it properly, and actually adapt it at the workplace, right? Right now it's still being sort of played with in the, uh, in the consumer space, but it's inevitable that we're gonna, we're gonna start utilizing these platforms, you know, at our place of work because, again, it'll save us hours, hours and hours of stuff, of time.
[01:20:53] The difficulty will be, again, it's basically fencing this, something like this, all within the limits of your, of your company, right? Because you don't want to, you don't wanna upload your data to ChatGPT, right? Or, or, or Google or whatever because, like, your data is your competitive advantage.
[01:21:12] Josh DeTar: Mm-hmm.
[01:21:12] Jay Tkachuk: Period, end of story. So, it's, it, it, if you share it with, with other platforms, you are eroding that advantage, now you can, just have to learn how to, how to use it that way yourself.
[01:21:23] Josh DeTar: When you say your data is your advantage, kind of coupling that with what you were just talking about with the fact that, you know, AI and things like ChatGPT are gonna be so much better at synthesizing large amounts of data. So, you know, one of the things that has made community financial institutions special, like what you called out earlier, is, you know, it was that face-to-face.
[01:21:47] And, you know, Josh, he's a, a teller at the branch and he just, he knows me so well. So, he knows all about me, he knows my financial position, he knows where he can help, and he knows what products and services are important to me, and, oh, you know, Jay, he's been with the credit union for 25 years, he has so much knowledge, but when AI has more knowledge than either of the two of us because it can look at far vaster data sets and actually synthesize that data, then it's gonna be really important to identify how do we use that to augment our people
[01:22:20] because, like you were saying, the financial institution is the people. So, how do we use the technology to augment the people so the people can be better people, to be better at being the institution that they set out to be?
[01:22:30] Jay Tkachuk: Well, I mean, in your example, right? So, if, if you are a teller, right, you only know about the, uh, the member that you are working with as much as that member is willing to share with you over time, right? But with, uh, with machine learning and such, such analysis, right, it can augment you your ability to like, hey, actually, like, what is happening is even though this member didn't tell you this, but they're looking for, for a new home, for instance, right?
[01:22:58] They're, based on their behavior, based on their little, life stage, they're looking for, looking for a new home and based where they live now and, you know, what we know about their family, like they did, you know, all these details pop up. So, now you as a human that is interacting with, with the member can weave that in your conversation and actually have, you know, intrusively, you know, to, to your point, like unless, you know, you, you offer this type of product, right,
[01:23:25] that they'll never come to you. So, now you can weave that in, in the conversation and like, and, you know, and by the way, you know, have you, have you talked to, to, to Bob over there who is our home advisor, you know? So, whenever, if you in the market, you know, see what, see, see what Bob can do for you, or you can go to our website, right,
[01:23:42] interact with our platform so you can play with various scenarios and see what kind of rates you get, right, and it'll be great if you do it with us, but if, you know, if you don't, we understand, right? Somebody's better than us. So, that's how the machine learning technology can augment what we already do, right?
[01:23:58] And, and on the flip side, if somebody just comes to the website and starts playing with it, with, let's say mortgage calculators or, or whatnot, right, AI is smart enough, uh, to stitch that, that activity, uh, with everything else that knows about you as a visitor, right, through, through first-party cookies or whatever,
[01:24:19] and over time, build a whole profile about you as a, as a person, what you do, what you're interested in, what kind of stuff we should be talking to you about, and at some point, it'll find out who you are, actually, whether you are gonna, you know, submit a leads form or whatever, right, give us an email address, give us your phone number,
[01:24:37] we can figure out who you actually are, and now when you interact with us through either digital or in a, through call center or in a branch, right? That conversation is so much richer because it is not, even though you've never talked to us, let's say on, on, on the phone, you never called us before, ever, that information available, is available to the call center agent,
[01:24:57] they can have a much richer and more informed conversation with you about what your needs are and what the kind of, kind of problems, you know, we need to solve with you then that being completely, like, blank slate, right? There's no, we know nothing about you at all. So, that is where the value of this technologies will come in, is, is providing that context for all the interactions that you have with us,
[01:25:19] you know, and what kind of needs you may have, so we can anticipate those needs, and whenever you talk to us, we can, we can at least try to address them, right, in, in a positive way, like, you know, it definitely can go very Big Brother, and we need to stay away from that, but it, mistakes will be made, you know, we will learn, uh,
[01:25:40] Josh DeTar: Mistakes will be made.
[01:25:41] Jay Tkachuk: you know, we will learn, right, but we will evolve towards, uh, towards those type of capabilities when we have this rich, very rich conversations, whether through, whether interacting with our bots on our website, the website itself, our self-service platforms, call center branches, whatever, right?
[01:25:59] We, we know all this stuff about you, and we're not gonna bombard you with ads, right? But we'll just, we'll just talk, we'll, we'll figure that, we'll interact with you in a way that you will find unobtrusive and useful, and, uh, hopefully, will, again, be the top on, top of mind that when you have a problem in the financial space, we're your first stop when you, you know, that, you know, you may not know that we have the solution or an answer, but we are the first stop you have to go to find out, right? And we will then route you as appropriate and, and, you know, and may hopefully have a solution that fits your needs.
[01:26:37] Josh DeTar: Jay, I think that's kind of a, a good way to sum it up, right, is our goal is hopefully technology helps make us better humans. I think the unfortunate truth is, um, you know, like what we literally started the conversation on today, unfortunately, there's some not-so-great humans out there and, you know, technology's gonna, gonna aid in that as well, but the hope is that we use this stuff for good, right?
[01:27:00] And we use it for ways to be better people, be better humans, be better to each other, be better, you know, service providers for our members. So, I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
[01:27:10] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, there is.
[01:27:11] Josh DeTar: Well, Jay, before I, uh, before I let you go back to your day, man, I have two final questions for you. So, the first is, I gotta say, like, again, I have to reiterate, if you have listened to this podcast today, trust me, you absolutely have to go follow my friend Jay on LinkedIn, I'm telling you it's some of the best stuff out there. But, Jay, where do you go to get your information?
[01:27:36] Jay Tkachuk: So, actually, LinkedIn is one of those things, like I, I myself follow quite a few people that are very interesting and across a broad spectrum of technology and science. I read a few periodicals, you know, like Financial Brand and, you know, payments that come, uh, come to mind, I read science, you know, science, science, I read periodicals,
[01:27:55] I read Wired, I, I try to stay, stay in touch, you know, I read blogs, I, you know, it, one good thing about those, uh, info-bubble algorithms that, that I kind of complain about, right, they kind of know now that what, what I'm interested in. So, when I tap into my Google feed or my LinkedIn feed, there's a lot of stuff that I find interesting.
[01:28:15] So, there's a benefit there, clear benefit. So, that is, uh, that is how I do, uh, you know, I, I do like reading books, so I, I think my Kindle library right now is, like, 3000-some titles that, or which I have probably read, probably read just a few hundred, right? So, I, I, I am, I'm set for, for life already.
[01:28:37] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, he could have left that out, we would've thought you read 3000 books already.
[01:28:40] Jay Tkachuk: No, no, I'm not, I wish, right, but, uh, in addition to that, I am quite aware that like, well, you know, I'm human, right? So, I have blind spots, so education is very important and even structured education. So, for instance, I recently went through, uh, Kellogg's CDO certification program, which accomplishes goal,
[01:29:02] I wanted to know about things that I don't know that I don't know, right, there's things that I know I know, things I know I don't know, but it's those blind spots that I, I know I have, but I'm not aware what's, what's there, uh, why I took the program. And, uh, it was, let's say it, it opened my eyes on a few things that, either had a misconception about, or it just was played wrong about, right?
[01:29:25] And so, it, it was a great experience. So, pushing myself and, and frankly, you know, you know, being where I am and what I do, right, carving out the time to go through a year-long program like this was, was painful, right, but we, as we, as we mentioned, right, that, that, uh, stepping out of your comfort zone and, and pushing yourself is what, is what creates progress ultimately.
[01:29:50] So, uh, I'm glad I did that, I will probably continue to do stuff like this with breaks in between, just, just so I don't have to, you know, exercise mobile power all the time because, you know, you know, when you have to do this, and there's an external demand for you to do it, it makes that decision a lot easier.
[01:30:06] So, I, I now have to put myself in that situation, I mean, that, that's one of the reasons that, that I did martial arts for so long, it's like, I was never the strongest guy in the room, right, or the fastest guy in the room, but I wanted to be able to improve myself, right? Not only that, but I, I wanted to know how will react when I step onto the mat, right?
[01:30:24] Because it's like, like anything in life, it's, it's all about, your main opponent is you, right, there, there is, there is no, um, there is no worse opponent in life than yourself, that, that inner voice in your head that, that tells you that, you know, maybe you shouldn't do that, or, you know, you know, you're not good enough or whatever.
[01:30:44] So, now I know, like, I have conquered that, I have, I have stepped onto the mat and got my butt kicked quite a few times, right, and, and it's all good, you know, I'm still here, so I have learned a lot, right? I, I'm never gonna be
[01:30:58] Josh DeTar: I think that's
[01:30:59] Jay Tkachuk: I'm never gonna be Bruce Lee, right, but, you know, good enough for me.
[01:31:03] Josh DeTar: I think that's such good advice, Jay. I, you don't know how you're gonna react until you step on the map.
[01:31:08] Jay Tkachuk: Yes.
[01:31:09] Josh DeTar: And that's not just in martial arts, right?
[01:31:11] Jay Tkachuk: No, it's everywhere.
[01:31:12] Josh DeTar: It's, it's everywhere. Well, Jay, if people want to learn more about you or connect with you, and if they wanna learn a little bit more about your credit union, how can they do that?
[01:31:22] Jay Tkachuk: The best way to do it is connect, connect with me on LinkedIn, uh, LinkedIn is the only social media platform that I use, please reach out, you know, I, I'm glad to have a conversation with anybody, uh, as long as, uh, the schedule allows. So, that's the best way to find it.
[01:31:36] Josh DeTar: Awesome. And what about, uh, the credit union?
[01:31:40] Jay Tkachuk: So, go to golden1.com, that's, that's our portal to the world, you know, watch it. I've been with the, with the credit union for just six months, and I haven't really touched it quite yet, the, uh, the website I will, in the next year, actually this, this year. So, watch us evolve, watch what we do, ask me questions, you know, you know where to find me.
[01:32:02] Josh DeTar: Awesome. Thanks, Jay, it's always a pleasure talking to you, I always enjoy the rabbit holes and all the good info that comes out of it, so thanks for being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast.
[01:32:12] Jay Tkachuk: Thanks, Josh, it was great to, to talk to you, my friend.
[00:01:50] Jay's a husband, and a father of three teenagers who he says were apparently closet Californians all along, the boys went from being clean-cut Texans to long-haired California surfer dudes on basically day one of landing in California. Jay's a lifelong learner, um, his curiosity is almost unmatched.
[00:02:08] He says he has always been interested in science fiction as it is basically a series of rabbit holes taking you to the unexpected, and he takes that curious approach in everything he does, both personally and professionally. Jay said, "There are a lot of things I'll never understand, but I want to turn over every rock and learn as much about the things that interest me or impact me as possible."
[00:02:31] Jay is also a total jokester, and I can attest to this personally, you never walk away from an after-lunch ice cream with Jay without a huge smile on your face and sore cheeks. I remember the first time I ever met Jay, he offered to take me to the airport to catch my flight home, he opens up the trunk for my suitcase, and before he does, he says, "Oh, and don't mind that giant sword in there, that's used for intimidating IT."
[00:02:56] The best part was there was actually a giant sword in there. As you can imagine, with Jay's can't-sit-still, wanting to perfect a skill set or craft a mindset, martial arts has been a great fit for him, and I tell you what, one of the other things about Jay is if you want to see some of the most fascinating stuff in your LinkedIn fade, feed, follow Jay Tkachuk, seriously, the best-curated content in the industry, hands down, I will give that to you, Jay. Thanks for being a guest on the podcast.
[00:03:31] Jay Tkachuk: Thank you, Josh. I'm really glad to be here.
[00:03:33] Josh DeTar: I think we kind of, like, alluded to this in your intro, we are probably gonna go down about 6 million rabbit holes today, it's one of the things that I love most about you. Um, you know, you just, you have such an interesting depth into some of the most obscure topics, but what I've always found really interesting about you is,
[00:03:53] and maybe this really obscure topic, but somehow it's always applied very relevantly. And so, I think it's really unique how you look at so many different areas of things that are happening and applying that to just kind of your thought process and your learning. So, I wanted to actually share this with our listeners, um, just because I think that this had set the tone for, for what we're talking about today.
[00:04:16] So, I want to just give you the last couple of posts from Jay's LinkedIn and some of the different articles that he's shared with his commentary on 'em, so, "Social media used AI to create the next big tobacco, so what's next?" "New breakthrough brings quantum computers a huge step closer." "New AI research from Italy introduces a diffusion-based generative model capable of both music synthesis
[00:04:46] and source separation." An article about founders of another crypto exchange being haggled by the SEC, uh, "Gen Y too broke for a midlife crisis." I mean, the list just goes on and on, right? You, so, you can see kind of the breadth of different types of articles that you share and, and your perspectives on 'em. So, Jay, I mean, my first question to you is, like, when do you sleep, man?
[00:05:10] Jay Tkachuk: Actually, I'm quite dis, disciplined about sleep, like I, I need to get my seven hours a night at least, like, every day, so. I read sort of in between, it's, it is just a need to have, I, I'm like, like I mentioned, I'm curious and the rabbit holes are everywhere, so I, inevitably, there is a squirrel moment and I'm gonna follow that squirrel for a while, and I'm gonna read about stuff that may not be applicable, maybe directly to what I do professionally today, but it, it quite possibly will tomorrow.
[00:05:38] So, we live in a world that is so interconnected, you know, butterfly effect is quite obvious everywhere. So, what happens on one side of the planet has, uh, you know, reverberates all the way across the world. So, I think, and you never know what's gonna happen, and yeah, my, my list of interest is quite diverse, but they all, said we, we have a very connected world.
[00:06:01] So, so, whatever's, what's, what's happening in one industry or, you know, in a particular field, inevitably is gonna permeate and, and affect everything else. So, I just can't help it, right, it's just, something pops under my radar, and I, I just have to know more about it, it, it is how I tick.
[00:06:18] Josh DeTar: What, uh, what was this morning's reading? Anything interesting?
[00:06:23] Jay Tkachuk: Actually, I didn't get to that, uh, uh
[00:06:24] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, I did make you start this a little early, so maybe I, I'm the start of your morning, okay, how about yesterday's?
[00:06:31] Jay Tkachuk: Yesterday, actually, I was reading about, you know, being a Ukrainian, uh, that the, the war that Russia has unlisted upon my, my former homeland, you know, so I was actually, uh, learning about the different types of war that Russia and Ukraine are waging against each other.
[00:06:48] So, Russia is utilizing the total war concept, while Ukraine is more of a classic, uh, approach to, to waging war where civilians are not being targeted, it's military to military, while, while Russia is, is targeting everybody because it's, it's not doing very well, it doesn't have a whole lot of tools left in its arsenal, and B, it is trying to literally break the people so that they surrender.
[00:07:12] So, that was very, that was very interesting. Uh, I'm interested in mil, military history in general, but I haven't thought about that particular point of view, how we are literally seeing a collision of two very different approaches to conducting warfare in, in, right now, in real-time. So,
[00:07:30] Josh DeTar: I mean,
[00:07:30] Jay Tkachuk: interesting experiment, if you will.
[00:07:33] Josh DeTar: It, yeah, I
[00:07:34] Jay Tkachuk: I wouldn't call it an experiment, but I'm saying, you know, uh,
[00:07:38] Josh DeTar: No, I get you.
[00:07:39] Jay Tkachuk: a hundred years from now, when people look at this, they'll, they'll see it as an experiment, right now it just, it's miserable, it's, it, it, miserable world that nobody wanted and was completely unprovoked and, you know, I, I can't wait for the day that Russia'll do this.
[00:07:54] Josh DeTar: I mean, it's, look, I didn't think, we knew we were gonna go down some rabbit holes, I didn't know we were gonna go down this one this fast, but it's just, it's actually mind-boggling to me, Jay, that in 2023 we are actually having this kind of war and for this long.
[00:08:11] Jay Tkachuk: You know, my first reaction was very much like yours, but being a student of history, uh, I would say we should have seen it coming, uh, you know, Russia is the, a predatory empire has always been a predatory empire, it is the last colonial empire on the face of the, of this world. So, it does what it does.
[00:08:30] And frankly, it has been trying to dominate the Baltic and the Black Sea basins for over 200 years and spilled enormous amount of blood over this, right? And now that the Baltic states are all NATO countries and therefore, um, unassailable, uh, because there's no way that Russia can compete with, with NATO, uh, militarily or economically. Once Ukraine has decided to move in that direction, right,
[00:08:54] Russia had two choices, either let it go, right, and, uh, hopefully started forming itself because if you look at what they have done, they can't build anything, they, I mean, outside the Moscow site, Petersburg is still in the 19th century effectively. So, or, you know, or do what they have always done and as, attack, I mean, you could, this, this is the 29th armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and 28 of those Russians have, have initiated.
[00:09:24] So, this is, of anybody in the world, Ukrainians should not have been surprised, right? They, they, they have been doing this to us for hundreds of years, it, it, it's just what they do.
[00:09:34] Josh DeTar: Yeah, yeah. I think the, the mind-boggling part to me is that we're supposed to be such an advanced civilization at this point, right? And yes, history repeats itself, but we're also supposed to, you know, maybe, I don't know, learn from history, and like you said, maybe not so much even see it coming, but maybe react to things differently.
[00:09:57] And it's just been really interesting, and I hate to use the word, but I'll reuse it, it's almost been a, a very interesting experiment to see how each country has also just interacted or not interacted with this conflict as well.
[00:10:12] Jay Tkachuk: Yes. That, that has been very interesting to, to, to watch, right? And, and how UN, uh, you know, reacts or doesn't react, it, it's, in wars, definitely, uh, put things in black, in, into black and white, right? The world is not black and white, the universe is not black and white, but when you are faced with such sheer, you know, evil on such a massive scale, things, uh, things do tend to fall in a stock perspective.
[00:10:37] Josh DeTar: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, sometimes it takes some of these big events to put things into perspective, and like you were talking about earlier with the butterfly effect, right, I mean, how many ripple effects has this conflict had, even here in the US? You know, even simple little stuff, right? Like, when, uh, Russia first started attacking, started having to think about, hey, what countries do we restrict access to digital banking and things like that, right? So, it's incredible how big of a ripple effect a big event like this can have.
[00:11:12] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely.
[00:11:13] Josh DeTar: And so, I think that puts some of these things in perspective where, you know, there are also smaller things that are happening all around the world in our geographies, in our own, you know, businesses that create ripple effects, that have impacts that sometimes you may not even see right away.
[00:11:29] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, absolutely. I expect that this war will, will advance a lot of technology forward, you know, I bet that the drone, you know, the, the drone industry is gonna be a, gonna get a huge push forward because that technology is utilized so much in this conflict, I mean, we've, we've had an actual first, you know, drone on drone combat, you know, in the world that took place there.
[00:11:50] So, I do expect that, you know, that and the, uh, cyber warfare and, you know, narrative warfare, all of these fields are going to get a giant leap forward because of this conflict. And it's an unfortunate consequence of, of such, such events, right? I would rather stuff like this evolves naturally or doesn't evolve at all.
[00:12:11] We, we have plenty of conflict as it is, uh, but, you know, when, when the bully decides to fight you, you have only two, two options, you can either runaway, well, three, runaway, call the law enforcement or fight, right? Uh, if you're a country, first two options are not available. So, we are where we are.
[00:12:30] I'm glad that Ukraine has such awesome friends as United States, right? And, and the UK, and, uh, European countries, and Poland, and, and others, and I do believe that the victory is not, you know, it's not, not gonna be quick coming and it'll be paid dearly for, but this coming and that the strategic defeat of Russia finally will lead hopefully to the third and last contraction of that evil empire,
[00:12:55] and, uh, it, other collapse, and frankly, I think Russians actually will benefit from that, too, in the long run, uh, because it's long past due that, uh, they're, they become a nation-state like everybody else, and joined, become a normal country as a normal contributing member of an international community and not some boogeyman that is lurking, you know, in the shadows, you know, just waiting to strike you, no, we, we, we don't need that, nobody does.
[00:13:23] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I was like, we don't need that, nobody needs that. You know, it's, it was interesting the point you made, I mean, you know, conflict is a change engine, right? And we, again, we see that in so many different examples, and again, if you look at your history books, right? Major wars have been catalysts for change,
[00:13:43] they've been catalysts for innovation and sometimes for the good, sometimes for the not-so-good, right? But I think what I'm trying to say is, wouldn't it be great if we could get to the point where we can have those positive catalysts for change without all the bloodshed, right?
[00:14:00] Jay Tkachuk: That would be lovely.
[00:14:01] Josh DeTar: And, you know, you made the comment about a drone on drone warfare, right? I mean, for starters, that's like every video game playing kids dream, right? Being able to be the one, like, fighting another drone in the real world, like, but um, you know, there's, there's an interesting side to even technology coming into war, right? And previously, that would've been two pilots, two human beings in two planes, potentially having that conflict, and, and now it's two completely unmanned craft. So, it's interesting how even technology has changed the face of how we do war.
[00:14:42] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, absolutely. And, and again, I hope that once this is over, right? And, uh, and I hope it, it, give it, you know, it ends soon, but once this is over, the, the technological progress that we will, we will get out of this will allow us to use the same sort of approaches in, like, lunar exploration, alright? So, like, the distance, manipulating robotic or semi, semi-autonomous vehicles on a lunar surface to, to speed up, you know, the exploration of that, of that world,
[00:15:12] uh, and ultimately set, setting up, e, expanding to it, right? Setting up, you know, self-sufficient or semi-self-sufficient colonies there that will allow us to, to manufacture new materials that are impossible to make here or too expensive to make here. So, the next, like I, I sense that we are on the, on the verge of the next technological leap into the future.
[00:15:34] And this war, as unfortunate as it is, is just one of those things that's going to accelerate that leap, that, that transition. So, uh, I am looking forward to both, its ending and, you know, in the building Ukraine, which is a beautiful, phenomenal country with amazing people, and like, what, what lies, what lies, what lies after that, right?
[00:15:58] And what I feel is lies after that, I hope is that a, a, a long period of, of lasting peace with heavy dose of space exploration and actually starting to deal with the climate crisis that we see, we see unfold in front of us. And the only way that we will have to deal with that is, uh, not only moving away from fossil fuels but also getting into space, right,
[00:16:20] and start building those, what, whatever those solutions will be, whether those are mirrors or whatever, I don't know, right, but we will figure it out as a, as a species, I'm, I'm pretty sure, and it's gonna be an exciting, exciting several decades of, of doing that, it's gonna be kind of like what happened in the 70s, in the 60s and 70s with Apollo program, but on a much grander scale. So, I'm really looking forward to that.
[00:16:45] Josh DeTar: Okay, I gotta ask, ask are you team Elon and hashtag colonize Mars, or where you fall on this one, Jay?
[00:16:51] Jay Tkachuk: So, uh, I, I've sort of mixed on that, right? Yeah, Mars is, uh, is definitely a planet, right? But we just, un, until we learn the lessons that we have to learn by first living on the moon, right? And figuring out the recycling technologies, how to grow food, how to manufacture things in a very hostile environment,
[00:17:11] but there's no help coming from anywhere, right, it's, you're just too far away from, from everybody. Until we know how to do that, I think Mars is unattainable, it's, it's a pipe dream, right? So, we have a world that is, you know, more hostile than Mars, frankly, like, right here, so let's learn how to live there, and then we can take it, take this show on the road for other, more distant worlds.
[00:17:37] But until we do that, I, you know, I just don't, I, I don't see it happening, just technologically we're not there, and I don't want to see, uh, I don't wanna have the first colonies to become the first tombs of humanity on, on, on other, other worlds, it, it's, it's not inspiring.
[00:17:54] Josh DeTar: You know, this made me think about, I'm gonna say it in a totally cheesy way because, um, this, I don't know how I remember this 'cause I don't remember what I had for breakfast, but our, my high school graduation, our, like, slogan was one that probably three outta five high schools have as their, you know, high school graduation slogan,
[00:18:14] but it was the whole, you know, "Shoot for the moon if you miss you'll land among the stars" kind of thing. But in all seriousness, you know, what do you think of that kind of methodology? I was recently listening to an interview with Elon and, and then kind of a follow-up to that interview,
[00:18:32] and they were talking about, you know, what were to happen if Elon, you know, cease to exist, right? Like, would anybody be crazy enough to pick up his torch, or would somebody just say, "You know what, man, like, Mars is ridiculous, like, what are we doing? We're spending so much money trying to go to Mars, we gotta knock this stuff off,
[00:18:51] you know, we're building rockets and trying to colonize Mars, we could take this technology, we could really easily just build a slightly better airplane and get from, you know, New York to Paris a little bit quicker." But, you know, with his, his crazy level of visionary, like, I'm gonna shoot for it, is that what's driving a lot of the innovation that's coming out of it is that his end goal is so ridiculous, and maybe he doesn't even believe in the end goal, but he knows that if that's the end goal as opposed to just let's build a better airplane, they'll get further, I don't know, what are your thoughts?
[00:19:26] Jay Tkachuk: So, uh, I, I think we absolutely need people like this, right? Elon is, uh, I do think that he does believe in actually doing this because o, otherwise his, his level of commitment would be unsustainable. So, but it really almost doesn't matter whether he succeeds, succeeds or not, right? But we got out of the Apollo program was not, not, not lunar colonies, but the internet,
[00:19:46] ultimately, and mobile phones, right? That whole computer miniaturization, stuff that now powers our entire civilization, happened during, during that program or, or grew out of it. So, taking out a whole new level kind of what, like, what Musk is trying to do, what Bezos is trying to do, and what others are trying to do inevitably is gonna produce technologies that we can't, we can't even really foresee at, at this point.
[00:20:13] So, in my mind, it really doesn't matter whether Elon Musk ever will set his foot on Mars, it, it really doesn't, it's all this stuff that we will discover in the process of trying to get this done.
[00:20:26] Josh DeTar: I am gonna give you the super loaded question that we already know the answer to, but so does that, is that applicable in other areas, right? Like, just bring it way back down to, right, what we do in providing digital services for community financial institutions, right, is there some learnings that can be brought from that to that?
[00:20:48] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely, and in particularly, in terms of how to motivate people, right? You have to have a vision that is, uh, clear, simple, understandable to motivate your team to, to accomplish amazing things, all right, digital transformation is not an easy thing to do, there's a, it's full with failure,
[00:21:06] there, there are wrecks everywhere, on every side of that road, right? It happen every day because either, either division was, was not something that they, the people bought into or understood, or it just wasn't enough, right? It was not enough commitment. So, so, taking, you know, I, I'm, I'm no Elon Musk, and I don't pretend to be, right,
[00:21:25] but, uh, but I, I have learned from him that having that very audacious, bold goal and pushing yourself and pushing your team to get there, you know, is very important, right? I'm never going to use, you know, his methods, like I, you know, he's this dragon dude, you know, running around it, you know, the factory floor and, and SpaceX and pushing them, you know, to work 27 hours a day to build the next rocket,
[00:21:52] like, that is not who I am, but I'm not, again, I'm not trying to build the colonial Mars, I am transforming, uh, you know, very large financial institution in a way, in a, in a pace that we can sustain, right, into something that it can and should become in order to become successful, or it, it is accelerated, but more successful,
[00:22:14] and to do that, the first and the most important factor I had to deal with this is, is people, not just the, the people that report to me, but everybody else, ultimately every single bank and credit union in this country is, is people, right? You take the people outta those buildings and, you know, of the, of that network, and this organization ceases to exist.
[00:22:35] So, you know, one, one of the books I'm reading right now, uh, in, in, in small intervals because I don't have a whole lot of time, is The Technology Fallacy, and that's what's all about, like, people tackle digital transformations sticking into the technology project that will drive the culture change,
[00:22:49] and it's exactly backwards, you have to drive the culture change first and foremost in order to accomplish your technological goals. So, that, that is something that, you know, Elon has done really well, that, you know, Jeff Bezos has done really well, and I am trying to learn from them as much as, as much as I can and apply those learnings, you know, in, in, in my situation.
[00:23:11] Josh DeTar: You know, you've used the, uh, the go-to buzzword right now, in our industry, the, the digital transformation. And I think what's been really fascinating for me hosting this podcast is just getting every unique guests' perspectives on what that means. So, what does that mean to you? What does digital transformation mean to you, maybe as a whole, and what does it mean for our industry?
[00:23:34] Jay Tkachuk: What it means, what it means to me is changing the way, let's say Golden 1, right? My employer, literally it does business, how the decisions are made, right? How people communicate with each other. So, true digital transformation always comes, always comes, you know, top down and from inside out, it is not about having the best and the slickest, uh, you know, user-facing tech, technologies, and solutions and, you know, the SNAs digital banking platform, all that stuff is important,
[00:24:05] absolutely, but it, it's just really the outcome of the actual transformation that goes on inside, you know, the, using the data to inform decisions, not, not just produce reports, but actually drive the decision making when you know that after A comes B, and after B comes C because of these things, and understanding, you know, the logic of it all. Retaining the lessons learned, you know, knowledge management is extremely important because now, especially now in this very fluid
[00:24:35] employment market when people, you know, don't, don't stick around often for longer than, you know, just a few years, capturing that brilliance and recording it why, uh, you know, the reasons why certain decisions were made and, and how particular model was set up is, is paramount because otherwise you're just starting all over again every three years,
[00:24:55] and, you know, that's not sustainable. So, it, it is truly, like, like I mentioned, changing the way, like, as an organism because every organization is an organism, how that organization ticks, it's, it's changing the rate of metabolism and how it, the neurons fire, right? And what, what victors, uh, the, the energies are, are being channeled, channeled alone.
[00:25:19] So, that's what, to me, that's what digital transformation is. So, it's moving away from paper, it's moving away, moving away from, um, sort of siloed operational organization to really value stream-based approach when, that those value streams pre-made the entire, the entire culture, and the entire organization.
[00:25:37] And, and there's, you know, logical handovers, handoffs between all the, all the touch points along the way, and everybody in any point knows what's going on. So, it's, it's almost kind of, like, I would say blockchain is a great metaphor for this because with the blockchain, you know exactly what's going on and who started, who started something, where it is right now, right, where it's going, what changes have been made.
[00:26:02] That is what digital, uh, digital organization is, and access to information and making sense of it all on the fly, in real-time, in context, is paramount because it will change how everything is, is done, right, and it will then pop all this up into a superb digital user experience to the membership.
[00:26:25] Josh DeTar: Yeah, you were saying, you know, data is super important, but you kind of have to have a mindset of what to do with it, you can get all of this incredible data out, this beautiful report that tells you all this information about maybe what your members are doing or how they're doing it, but if you don't have the culture to actually think through a business process to do something with that data, then the quote-unquote digital transformation you went through is utterly useless.
[00:26:54] Jay Tkachuk: Exactly. Well, it, it is not as a transformation at all, you just had this glitzy technology project, right, that probably will not get adopted, and the transformational effort would fail. So, that's why the pace of change is important, you know, I do see in industry all these attempts at, you know, putting timelines on transformation, saying like, "We're gonna get this done
[00:27:15] and, you know, in two years." There's no way, it's like, you know, unless you are a brilliant, brilliant people manager that knows how to change cultures in that short amount of time, I just don't think so, it's, it has to be a slow and deliberate approach, uh, so that people can adopt, people can adapt, embrace it,
[00:27:37] you know, you have to up-train and retrain your, you know, your people that, that make those decisions because ultimately the decision-making power is going to be distributed, right? We cannot have centralized decision-making in our world, in the world that is coming, right, in the world of quantum computing and, you know, all, all this other stuff that, that, that is inevitably going to happen, you know, when AI is talking to another AI about to, you know, trying to get you the best deal on, on, on a certificate, or whatever it is, right?
[00:28:06] That is coming, and we have to be prepared for that, but you, we have to foster the culture and the skill set of people to make those type of decisions and to literally own the journey for our members, you know, end-to-end because ultimately the goal of every credit union out there is to be a lifelong partner to the members that they have.
[00:28:29] And for that, you have to just, with your significant other, you have to understand who they are, what, what makes 'em tick, what drives 'em forward, you know, what vulnerabilities they have, how to build them up, right? And at the same time, they do it in a way that allows you, you know, YouTube to, uh, flourish as well.
[00:28:48] So, in, in, in advance forward, it's, it's a very delicate, very delicate process and, you know, you can probably build the technological foundation for it, uh, and relatively quickly, but it's the culture change that will be the most important components of, of everything like this.
[00:29:06] Josh DeTar: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the more that I have conversations on the podcast about digital transformation and just even off of this podcast, it's always interesting how, you know, there's always a little bit of a unique perspective to it, but I would say one of the things that seems to be pretty common is, is exactly what you're saying, right?
[00:29:24] The idea that it has to be, yes, it has everything to do with, with technology, right? And yes, if you wanted to use a really dumb example, it's taking a paper form and putting it, you know, on an iPad, but that's not, yes, it's going digital, but is it really transformative, right? And where the transformation really happens is in the culture side of things, in the people side of things, and getting people aligned to that,
[00:29:51] you know, I recently had Austin Adams on, who is the former CIO for JPMorgan Chase, and he made a comment about how the most successful technology projects are not led by technologists, they're led by the business case folks, get a business case person to sponsor your technology project, and it'll succeed,
[00:30:13] just go technology gung-ho, and it probably won't, and I think that's kind of what you were just talking about, too, right? Of yeah, sure you can, you can get this, you know, widget, this whiz-bang, this digital something, but if the culture of the organization is not prepared to actually leverage it, use it, and have it be transformative, then it's not going to be.
[00:30:34] Jay Tkachuk: No, it, it is not, right? So, that's why, you know, like at Golden 1, the first thing I did was look at the architecture and, you know, I, I liked out with the, you know, my partner in crime over there, our CIO, Chad Carrington, he, he's of the same, of the same opinion, you know, on, on this, on this topic.
[00:30:50] You have to transform the, the backbone arch, the technical architectural backbone of the company because, inevitably, the way that your architecture looks like affects the everything else downstream, including culture. So, if you have this monolithic, you know, architecture that can only move at the pace of waterfall that takes years to deploy anything, your entire culture, no matter where they are, accounting and, you know, finance, call center, is going to reflect that.
[00:31:21] So, at the same time, you know, you basically have to do those things at the same, at, in parallel, you have to change the underlying foundation to be more flexible and dynamic as you change the culture. So, it's security service, you know, my motto there was, you know, we'll suck less tomorrow, right? One step at a time, right?
[00:31:39] My motto here because, you know, my, my team is just chopping at the bit, and they want to change the world, and it is, you know, boil a frog and not the ocean, right? So, you know, fi, find the frog, a particular one, that you, you have to tackle, uh, you know, today and deal with that, right? Because change, culture change is, is a very gradual process and it's a, it's a sea change, right?
[00:32:04] And you have to do it in that pace, be like water as Bruce Lee, you know, once said, "Be like water," and, and just be persistent and, and consistent and keep pushing forward and the pace that ultimately erodes the rock and opens those new channels for you to, to go through.
[00:32:20] Josh DeTar: Totally lost my train of thought there. You give me so many good things, Jay, it can only take so notes so fast.
[00:32:26] Jay Tkachuk: I told you I'm going to rabbit holes.
[00:32:30] Josh DeTar: No, you know what I was thinking as you were talking about that is, is one of the things that I, I think is a little bit interesting in this industry and providing technology for community financial institutions is just the layers of complexity have gotten just exorbitantly more complex, right?
[00:32:48] I mean, the number of systems, the number of integrations, the number of third parties, do you build it in-house? Do you partner with somebody? Do you outsource it? And it's built in-house, but by someone else, and all of a sudden, you get these really complex, intertwined systems, speed becomes a really interesting conversation, right?
[00:33:09] Because in that equation, let's just, you know, super simplify it down and say there's three parties, there's the FI, the digital banking provider, and the core banking provider, and when you ask them, "What does fast mean to you?" And the FinTech-y digital banking provider says, "Oh, two weeks, that's our sprint cycle."
[00:33:30] And the core provider says, "Oh, you know, a year, we're a, we're a pretty quick moving agile core." And then the credit union's like, "Oh, fast to us is, like, two years, guys, like, what are you doing over here?" Right? Or, or vice versa, right, I'm picking on you a little bit here, Jay, but, you know, my point is just that I think sometimes when you get that many layers of complexity and that many parties involved, too, speed becomes a relative thing to each, each participant in that process.
[00:33:57] Jay Tkachuk: It absolutely does, uh, again, people can change only at the pace that they can change, right, and you have to be cognizant of that, and you have, and, and, and every organization is different, right? So, you know, the reason that FinTech can move so fast is because A, their architectures are very simple
[00:34:12] because they, they build them from scratch, they have no legacy, like, there's no, there's no technological debt that they have, but at the same time, they are, most of them at least, are one-trick ponies, right? They have one thing that they do really well, right? They're specialists at, in that, and they don't do anything else, you know, or either well or at all.
[00:34:31] Credit unions, uh, are, you know, tend to be full, full feature shops, you know, full retail, you know, or even business products, and we try to serve everyone, right? And, and it is in our DNA to be very member-focused and member-centric to bend our backwards to solve the problem, and everything else is sort of, historically has been secondary,
[00:34:54] like, yes, we need, we need technology to sort of allow us to do what we do, right, but we're not gonna compete, uh, with, with the challengers on technology or on user experience. Well, those days unfortunately, are, are gone, right? Because when it was, uh, be, before the internet, it was all about, uh, face-to-face banking
[00:35:14] and great unions excelled at that. Now, now that technology is here, especially, you know, after the pandemic where we were stuck at home for so long, and the digital shift finally has happened without unfortunately when being the catalyst, we're faced with a world where, uh, we have to compete, where we have to compete on, on the level of, of user experience and, and feature sets that, you know, that top banks have
[00:35:43] because inevitably, that's who we're being compared to, and everybody in our industry inevitably is being compared to Amazon or Google or, you know, Apple because, you know, the Jacob's law is in full effect, right? The, the experiences on, on with one leading, leading edge, and very, very popular provider, inevitably effective everything else,
[00:36:05] and, and people expect that, that level of service, you know, they expect the, the Netflix level of experience from the credit union, and that requires us to completely, uh, uh, you know, review everything that we have done, all the decisions that go back, you know, decades with core providers, to architectures, to whatever is now up for grabs.
[00:36:26] Ultimately, like, you have to make rational decisions, and I'm not gonna say that, you know, everybody go in and re, re-platform your core, like, immediately to, you know, something new and, and awesome because, uh, that is a very dangerous, that's a very, very dangerous thing to do, so.
[00:36:41] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, if you were gonna say that, you'd be like,
[00:36:43] Jay Tkachuk: I'm not gonna say that.
[00:36:44] Josh DeTar: Jay Tkachuk, core banking salesperson of the year.
[00:36:46] Jay Tkachuk: No, I'm, I'm not gonna say that, but there are a lot of other things that you can do, you can, you can wrap your aging core into, in a, in a layer of, of, uh, middleware and basically offload all the functions ov, over time to, to ensure that you remain competitive, that you provide that level of flexibility and dynamicism to your organization.
[00:37:06] So, it, you know, as you mentioned it, it used to take a year to two years for a technology project like implementing digital banking in a credit union. Well, nowadays with the modern middleware, you can do that in just a few months, maybe even less, right? And it's, it is paramount for IT, uh, departments to evolve into organizations that stay ahead of business, right?
[00:37:32] As long as they can, they can change their mindset and evolve into organizations that are, understand what business wants and what business is, where business is heading, and be able to provide that, that level of, of service to, to their constituents, we, we will win, and that's, you know, luckily I am seeing that shift,
[00:37:51] it's not everywhere, you know, as, as Gibson said, "Fisher is here, but not uniformally distributed," it, it, that is very true, uh, you know, some are much better than others at this, but it is happening, and it is very, uh, very encouraging.
[00:38:08] Josh DeTar: Well, it kind of goes back to what you were talking about at the very beginning with the war on Ukraine, right? And how conflict can be a change engine, and the pandemic was conflict, right? And it caused us to have to evolve and to innovate, and it, you know, obviously based on the nuances of what the pandemic actually meant, and it meant, you know, people had to separate from each other and from physical locations and spaces.
[00:38:34] So, obviously, that was a huge digital catalyst, right? If it had been a different type of pandemic, maybe it, you know, would've gone the other way, I don't know if there's a pandemic where you, like, have to be super close to people, but, you know, maybe that would've slowed down digital, but irregardless, right, like, the conflict was a catalyst for change in that regard.
[00:38:53] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely. And honestly, if you look at just us as a, as species, right, we evolve only during the time of, of stress of some sort, right? That's when we are at our best, frankly, that's where our, uh, creativity and flexibility of our, of our, our minds comes, comes to play. Unfortunately, that means because of our nature, that's, you know, the wars and pandemics and whatever happens, right?
[00:39:21] And the climate crisis now that we're, that we're dealing with, but the human nature, even look at the pandemic is such an awful, awful time, but at the same time, it's, it's profoundly change, changed our society and in a way that I think will be quite beneficial long term, right? A lot more people became aware of how, how biology, like, microbiology works, right?
[00:39:45] I expect that the, you know, right now it's, it's probably too early, but the microbiology field is going to flourish after this. So, we will learn a lot, a lot of new things, even, even with the human body, I think in the last few years, like, we thought we know everything about our own anatomy and apparently we, we don't, we have been, we have been discovering, like, whole new parts of, of what makes us us, right, from brain membranes to this connective tissue that's, covers our antibodies,
[00:40:14] I mean, all this stuff is, is fascinating, and it was pushed forward by something like pandemic, right? So, it is who it, we are who we are, we are, we are a species that is pushed, you know, probably back in the day when we were just basically primates, some sort of a climatic event pushed us into savannahs out of the forest and ultimately made us, us, right?
[00:40:38] So, that's the, that's the genetics that we have, we are explorers, we, we will strive to survive, we're survivors, right? And we, unfortunately, need to have such events of stress to, to make us better, make us evolve, right? And half the time, we create them ourselves, unfortunately, as a species,
[00:40:59] but ultimately, it makes us better, I mean, I mean, back to politics, right? Without World War II, the European Union would not exist, and looking at that, you know, it's not perfect by instructional imagination, but it is whole lot better what, what came before it. So, and it brought level of prosperity to the European continent, not experienced there bef, you know, prior.
[00:41:21] So, it's a great example that change, positive change, is possible on a massive scale, and I expect that as, as a, again, as we evolve as the species and society will have, will see more and more of that.
[00:41:33] Josh DeTar: I think I've used this example in the past, but, you know, one of the examples that I, uh, one of the things that I've been looking at a lot lately, just in my personal side of things is how much actually introducing some adversity into your life can actually provide for some significant positive benefits, right?
[00:41:53] So, I mean, even just little things like cold plunges or being in a sauna for 30 minutes, um, you know, actually putting your body through stress. It is interesting you were talking about how you know, we, we, we almost strive for conflict, right? Like, we need some sort of conflict in our lives because otherwise, it's kind of boring,
[00:42:10] it's why is reality television so popular 'cause people love the conflict, right? But, but it, when used properly, it can, it can be a catalyst for positive growth and change, and, you know, the example is, I just, I found it fascinating when they were doing the biodome experiment, right? They couldn't figure out why they couldn't grow trees tall, they would get to a certain point and they'd just fall over.
[00:42:35] And what they realized was the biodome was so controlled, there was no wind. And so, the trees never learned that they had to grow deep roots and get strong to deal with wind. And so, when they got to a certain point in height, their weight just took over with gravity, and they toppled over,
[00:42:54] but as soon as they introduced wind, the trees learned to deal with wind, as they grew, they got deeper roots, they got stronger, and they grew tall, right? So, what kinds of things do you almost see as, um, some positive adversity in our industry right now that you think could be some catalysts for some cool change?
[00:43:15] Jay Tkachuk: Oh, what was the question?
[00:43:17] Josh DeTar: Yeah, no, no pressure.
[00:43:18] Jay Tkachuk: No pressure.
[00:43:19] Josh DeTar: Just, I was kind of hoping you would just have all the answers for us, Jay.
[00:43:21] Jay Tkachuk: Sure, uh, just gimme a moment. Well, we are, you know, obviously we are operating in a very saturated and very competitive environment, I mean, social media has become something that's bombarding us and, and, and marketing, too, right, bombarding us with, with information on, on a scale that is, has not been seen before, ever.
[00:43:40] I think that I, I saw somewhere some statistic that a, a person today is exposed to, like, hundreds of ads a day, right? More, like, multiple times, more than, you know, our, our parents were exposed in, like, 1980s, right? It just, the amount of information that is coming, does is this huge wave, like, wall of noise that is, that is, surrounds us, is making those connections that, that we're trying to build with, with our members as great unions.
[00:44:10] Quite difficult, right? And also, you know, like, social media because of what it has evolved into, and I'm not gonna, you know, beat them up too much about it because it is what it is, but it has evolved into, into something that has eroded of trust in, in, in entities other than yourself, right? It made us more individualistic, it made us more egotistical, frankly.
[00:44:34] It has eroded of trust in others, like, it has eroded trust in the government, it has eroded trust in, in financial institutions or, or democratic institution or legislative institutions. And so, you know, breaching that, A, punching your signal through that wall of noise is extremely difficult, but you have to be, you have to be relevant at the moment of need.
[00:44:57] And that requires the digital transformation that we just talked about, right? But also requires the mastery of, of data and content delivery and content creation that has not been, you know, it's completely unprecedented. So, we have to accomplish all of that and at the same time overcome this, uh, this negative bias and lack of trust that our world now is full of, right?
[00:45:22] So, those, to me, are the greatest challenges that we face today because new generations that's, you know, that, that have come up, A, they have been battered more than our generation, I know with the Greater Recession.So, there, there is that, but also the, you know, the, the, again, the social media, the being surrounded by, by the voices that, you know, unfiltered, that just say whatever it is, because there's no, there's no negative repercussions,
[00:45:51] you know, everybody is, is screaming the, there's no inner monologue anymore, it's just being projected, you know, uh, in and outwards, and there's a good reason why, by people that, you know, that didn't have an inner monologue, historically didn't survive, right? Because it's, it typically the stuff that comes out is all not, not all that great or pretty or social acceptable, so now we're facing
[00:46:17] Josh DeTar: What was the recent, Mike Tyson made a comment a while ago, something to the effect of, like, "We live in a day and age where people forget what it's like, what it's like to get popped in the nose for saying something stupid."
[00:46:28] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, exactly, right?
[00:46:30] Josh DeTar: Not, not advocating violence for saying things, but, you know.
[00:46:34] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, you know, but I'm not, even though, you know, I used to be a martial artist, right? Violence is, is not the answer, but at the same time, sometimes it, it can be, right? I would say that violence, when people say to me that violence is not, is not a solution to anything, I, I always counter with, and when appropriate, insufficient violence is, is not the answer to everything.
[00:46:58] But if you apply just the right amount, right, when the, when the bully has cornered you right, and is, is pushing you to the brink, it's probably a good, good time to just hit him straight in the nose, right, and knock him down because you know that if you do it just right with enough force, there'll not be a second time that this is gonna happen.
[00:47:21] So, so, yeah, I mean, ba, ba, but back to your question, right? It, it's the noise, it's the noise and the lack of trust and sort of this, this inclusion dehumanization of our relationships that is sort of happening or organically or being pushed by the algorithms that are, you know, imposed on us by, by the social media and search companies that is a problem, right?
[00:47:43] And there's also, like, the, you know, the crypto winter that is happening, which is, you know, was completely self-inflicted by the crypto industry, and, and honestly, it's kind of a natural thing, like, there's a, like with everything, there is a wild west moment of, of stuff, right? Something happens, it's, it's cool and it's great and it's sexy, and everyone's jumping on that bandwagon,
[00:48:03] lots of innovation happens. And inevitably, just like a biology in technology, there is, there's a calling of the herd that happens is, you know, you have to arrive in equilibrium and homeostasis that's sustainable long term. So, that's what we're seeing in that industry, you know, in digital banking, that's, I think, already sort of happened more or less,
[00:48:25] now it is the other stuff that is, that needs to happen underneath the digital banking level to, to make sure that the experiences that, that, again, that are provided to, to the membership or to in the prospects are not only, you know, awesome, but they have that human factor that, that we're now so solely lack in our other digital interactions.
[00:48:51] Josh DeTar: You know, I asked you to answer all the world's questions, and, uh, I didn't expect you to absolutely have it, but I felt like one of the things that you said was really, really well said and, and really pertinent, you said relevant at the time of need, and I think that is something that's, a lot of folks in our industry are trying to figure out what that means and what that looks like for a community financial institution right now, right?
[00:49:15] And you kind of even referenced earlier some of the, you know, FinTech, neobank, niche service providers, right? It's really easy to be really, really good at something when you only do one thing. Community financial institutions don't just do one thing, you guys do a lot of things. And so, trying to do a lot of things really well and then be able to cut through all the noise and be able to not just, maybe you are relevant at the time of need, but they don't even know it.
[00:49:43] So, getting all of those things to line up whereas, you know, the example that's been used on the podcast in the past is, you know, the, the neobank for doctors that just graduated college, like, that's it, we just service, if you just graduated med school, we are your bank, right? Super, super focused, super target, you know, targeted audience. So, they're able to be a lot more relevant at the time of need,
[00:50:09] like, that's literally in their saying like, "Hey, did you just graduate med school? We're relevant in your time of need." Right? But for, for somebody like Golden 1, that's gonna be a lot more difficult, right? You serve a much more, um, diverse demographic of members. So, how do you look at being relevant at the time of need when you're an institution like Golden 1?
[00:50:33] Jay Tkachuk: So, first of all, you have to understand what, you know, what the membership looks like, right? There's all kinds of assumptions that are flying all over the place and in the industry in general, right? People, people think that years of, uh, you know, working in branches or the call center or just dealing with the membership give you perfect insight into what, who your members actually are,
[00:50:54] and that's only partially true. So, what has, you have to get out of the building, and you have to go into the field and conduct studies, you have to actually meet your membership and understand who they are, what kind of natural segments to sort of fall into in terms of needs that they have, how they, how they bank, what kind of gaps they have.
[00:51:13] So, things like jobs to be done studies are paramount, you, you just have to understand your, your membership in context. Now, you can use modern technologies like AI, uh, to analyze your entire membership database, right? And understand what natural segments exist within it, but after that, you have to go out and actually meet these people,
[00:51:36] you have to understand, again, who they are, how they bank, what kind of products they use, why they use those products, where, you know, what gaps that they have, what, you know, and ultimately, give them what they need and not what they want, right? Because it is that, um, uh, it is that factor of understanding, in order to, to be relevant in a time of need, you have to understand what that need is and have to be able to predict when that time will be, right, so you can prepare for it.
[00:52:03] The only way to do that is, is to gain a profound understanding of your membership down to, you know, micro-segmentation of saying, like, these people that, you know, whether this particular, not this particular age range and particular technographic and, you know, demographic and geo, geographic areas have this particular needs,
[00:52:26] so, today, let's say they're college students and they have this set of needs, but a year from now they'll be young professionals and, you know, they'll start looking for their, their, their first cars and the first houses, and three years from now or five years from now, they're gonna get married, and they're gonna, you know, you have to understand that entire evolution,
[00:52:43] at least be able to predict enough of it based on, on what the information you have, and once you deploy it, you know, again, you have to be able to learn from your lessons and at, tweak, tweak at things as you, as you deploy 'em. It is impossible to do that across the scale of, like, something like Golden 1,
[00:53:04] it is, it is impossible, right? I would say it's impossible to do it even on a much smaller scale for smaller credit unions, you have to pick something and focus on that. So, uh, Golden 1 is actually a great example of this, even though it's a huge bank, right, but Golden 1 is, is known for one product, credit cards,
[00:53:23] they are amazing at credit cards, they have checking accounts and certificates and money markets and, you know, whatever else, they have all of that, right? And they, and they do it decently well, but they excel at credit cards. So, and I'm not advocating at the Golden 1's gonna become like the, you know, capital one of credit cards,
[00:53:44] but we will focus, you know, we, we do understand what our flagship products are that are important to us strategically, we will focus on those and, and we will, we will learn our lessons dealing with them through the studies that I mentioned through experimentation and technology, right? We will, we will go out and we'll meet our members and we'll, we'll interact with them, you know, we'll learn as much as possible.
[00:54:07] We also know that what, this stuff will have to continue, it's, it's a repeating cycle, we cannot, we can never stop learning because the world that our members live in, that we live in constantly is, evolves, right? It's, it's never-ending. So, you never know what's, uh, you know, I don't know, Apple will come up tomorrow with telepathic, you know, virtual reality or something, and, and the world will change
[00:54:30] and we have to be prepared for that. But at the same time, we have to, we have to be, uh, reasonable and not, not, not chase the new shiny, kind of, like, what happened with the Metaverse, right? Metaverse was this, is it gonna happen at some point? Yes. Is it gonna happen tomorrow? No, at all, right? It's, it's glitter wear at this point, right?
[00:54:50] It's, uh, kind of like Musk, uh, the Mars colonization idea, right? The time, whose time has not come, it's the, technology is not here, the benefit is not here, we, and frankly, we as people don't need it, right? There is no killer app that came with it, at some point, there will be, but it doesn't exist today.
[00:55:08] So, all those people that jump on the, on the Metaverse bandwagon or the crypto bandwagon, right, in the, in the financial service, services industry, right, spent a ton of resources and time on, on chasing that, and I'm not sure that it was the time well spent, right? There, there's probably, yeah, they probably have learned things, but I bet they could have, they could have applied the, the same resources to doing so many more productive, frankly, right? And focus on something that is very relevant to their business models today or tomorrow.
[00:55:40] Josh DeTar: I think that's a really good point, Jay, you know, that's a conversation, it was really interesting, we had a lot of conversations with, you know, our customers through kind of the crypto craze, right? And we had a lot of customers that were thinking about, you know, do we do something with, you know, offering buy, sell, hold crypto in digital banking?
[00:55:59] And, you know, ultimately, the question I always had with them was, why are, why would you do it, right? And if the answer is because it's on the news a lot, or because the institution down the street from us did it, is that really the right answer? Because, you know, I kind of used the simple example of what, what is crypto in that sense, right? If you're just offering buy, sell, hold, it's an investment.
[00:56:28] Okay. So, if it's an investment, well, there's been this other thing called the stock market, uh, lots of other ways to invest for, for a really long time, I mean, you, you haven't done anything there, so why would you go do this shiny thing if you haven't even done the thing that's been around forever and has proved itself it's not going anywhere, right? Maybe offer micro-investing in digital banking before offering crypto, right?
[00:56:57] Jay Tkachuk: A, absolutely, right, this, the, again, the new shiny syndrome is alive and well in our industry and, uh, uh, I challenge everyone that, you know, when people bring up request or projects or whatever ideas is, you have to clearly define the problem you're trying to solve down to the level of three whys, if you cannot answer the, the three-why question, you know, in, in, in the sequence, it is probably not worth doing,
[00:57:22] it's, it's not, or if it is, you haven't thought it through yet, right? To the, to the level that it makes sense for, uh, uh, to be tackled. So, yeah crypto is, is one of those things, yeah, it, it, it definitely was sexy, right? And in the news, uh, half the time for the wrong reasons, but the reason why people wanted that was, why they, the membership, wanted that, right?
[00:57:45] They, they did not trust the exchanges, they wanted somebody that they do trust to hold their cryptocurrency forum. Now, as an institution, you have to make a decision, is this something that is worth spending your trust currency on, right? Because you have to spend at capital, you only have a limited amount of it,
[00:58:04] and if you have to experiment and push your business model forward, is this one of those things? And in my mind, you know, I have thought about that, too, right? It, it, I have, I have had those conversations, uh, as well, in my mind it was not, right, it's, the shake-up would inevitably happen, right, it's happening now.
[00:58:22] Um, and yes, I understand the need for security and safety, but it is completely unregulated market, right, and, and we as a creative union cannot, like, outside of cybersecurity and cannot protecting you from the thieves, right, from the cybercriminals, there is no value at it, it is not what we do, right? So, there are other people, um, in the crypto industry that, that solve the cybercrime issue much better than we do. So, to me, it just didn't make business sense to dive in into that pool.
[00:58:56] Josh DeTar: Do you think this is an example of, uh, Elon shooting for colonizing Mars, though, and there's gonna be a lot of learnings that we take out of the crypto base?
[00:59:07] Jay Tkachuk: So, crypto, like, crypto, some crypto has, uh, I would say it, it depends, right? So, so, Bitcoin, and like, Ether, the actual, they have actual utility now, a lot of that utility, especially in the Bitcoin space is, you know, cybercrime and, and, and, uh, uh, just sort of the shadow economy transactions, but it's still utility, right?
[00:59:29] There's some use that, that it provides, like, all this other stuff, like, uh, you know, Shiba and, and others and, you know, the Dodgecoin it is a great example, right? I, I'm struggling to see how these are just not outright pyramid schemes, right? It, it just, there's no utility there, like, this thing that, that, that is out there has no intrinsic value whatsoever, right?
[00:59:53] It's that the value is based purely on, on what people are willing to pay for it. So, like, NFT is another example, like, as the concept, I think it's, it's, it's probably way ahead of its time, yes, there will be digital art and, and other assets that will be uniquely owned, right? And all that stuff is gonna shake out in the next, uh, couple of de, decades.
[01:00:14] But today there's no interesting value, right? There's, it just, it's not unique or valuable enough to, to be of any use whatsoever. So, other than breaking rights, well, you know, that, that's not, that's just not, not valuable to me, uh, personally or as a business leader. So, it just depends, right?
[01:00:33] I think that, uh, inevitably, we will, we will evolve into digital-first economy, right? We will have digital currencies that are like national Fiats, that, that, that digital, that will learn, take the learnings from the crypto world that we have today, and we'll have something that will be quite useful to the people, to the population, you know, in general to, to, to businesses, right?
[01:00:55] Our world, uh, you know, the payment world will become frictionless, you'll be able to, to buy stuff on the other side of the planet, you know, very easily and, and smoothly and seamlessly, and, and it's gonna be awesome, right, and we're evolving towards that. So, we just, right now, we're in this initial awkward stage where, where innovation is, is, is advancing in a very rapid pace, and like a Cambrian period in a, in a, in, in, in the evolution of life, right?
[01:01:23] There's all this stuff that's happening that's very exciting, but very little of it is going to survive, we're kind of like there with crypto, it's, it's, you know, uh, I'm, I'm really excited to, you know, to see what Crypto 2.0 is going to look like, and then Crypto 3.0 is gonna look like because I think when we get outta the 3.0 is when the world will change significantly.
[01:01:44] And, and when, when we look back, we were like, why were we carrying this piece of paper in our pockets? Like, well, you know, kind of like we, we look back in the, uh, you know, a thousand years, uh, ago in, in the past when people were carrying gold coins in their pockets, right? Which was heavy and dangerous because you could get marked at any moment, and then you, you know, you lose your entire wealth, right?
[01:02:09] So, inevitably, that's, you know, our kids are gonna look, think about us using cash at some point, but we're not quite there. So, I'm waiting for that, you know, killer app and the utility factor to increase, it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.
[01:02:27] Josh DeTar: Yeah, it's the, the killer app, the killer feature, right, they talk about it a lot in the catalyst for re, mobile banking really taking off, right, was remote deposit capture.
[01:02:37] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely.
[01:02:37] Josh DeTar: And suddenly, you have that one feature where people are like, "Oh, this clicks, like, this, this is the thing I was looking for I didn't know I needed."
[01:02:45] Jay Tkachuk: Because it solved a major pain, you didn't have to now, you know, drive to the uh, the branch to deposit, you stayed, stay in line, you know, wait in line, you know, waste your entire lunch hour on this, you know, it's all the significant friction point. So, something like this has to happen with emerging, uh, evolve or rapidly evolving, feels like crypto, for instance.
[01:03:08] Uh, now, even digital banking, right? Digital banking, like, mobile banking and online banking have been around for two decades now, or close to that, right? One is the next killer app, right, mobile check deposit has, has sort of, you know, it has evolved to where it can evolve, that, that's it, right? So, like, what, what is next?
[01:03:29] I don't think that crypto is, is that, I'm sure that I know right now what it is, but I think it's that delivery of content or personalized information at a time of need is going to be that, but that just require us a much greater technological leap and, and cultural shift, uh, to enable that, you know, to happen.
[01:03:50] Because mobile check deposit was really a technology shift, like, the, culturally, it's, uh, you know, in terms of the actual, uh, working cultures, it didn't change things a whole lot. Now that we live in a much more complicated world, uh, the next whatever killer app is going to be in digital banking is gonna be that much more complicated to accomplish.
[01:04:13] Josh DeTar: What do you think, what do you think it'll take to kind of be that next catalyst for looking for the next killer app?
[01:04:21] Jay Tkachuk: Well, it needs to solve, it needs to solve not just a, a major friction point, and we have gotten, by the way, really good at removing friction from digital transactions, right? Self-service transactions are
[01:04:32] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[01:04:33] Jay Tkachuk: by and large, but the friction exists, it's mostly because it's there by design, right? In terms of fraud prevention and velocity of money and all that, all that jazz, right? So, it has to, not just solve something that, the friction exists, but is, it has to address a need that our membership, our user base doesn't, probably doesn't even know it has because until mobile check deposit, everyone was happy, you know, or happy enough to go drive to the branch or deposit it an ATM, right?
[01:05:02] They didn't even consider using their, their smartphones for something like this. So, whatever is, like, it's hard to, it's hard to say what that's going to be because we have gotten so good at this, right? We have gotten so good at understanding what those self-service use cases are and solving it for the, for the general masses.
[01:05:22] Now, doing that on a personal level is gonna be much more difficult, and maybe, and now, and that's, that's just me hypothesizing, right, it is the evolution of the AI, like when we, when, to the point where when we get, uh, our individual virtual assistants that all are always with us, that live on our smart devices, well, actually they live in our homes, really, well,
[01:05:47] like, what, the thing is gonna happen is we're gonna evolve when your home is sort of the hub for your personal AI, and it will travel will you, with you, whatever, you know, wherever you, you go, jumping from your smart, smartphone into your car can take over, taking over the appropriate hardware within, within your vehicle, and so on so forth.
[01:06:10] And that AI learning how you work, how, what makes you tick, what makes your family tick, right, how to keep you safe, and how to improve and evolve your financial well-being, how that virtual assistant will interact with its counterparts in credit unions, in, you know, in banks and everywhere else, I think, you know, ordering pizza and whatever, right?
[01:06:32] All of that is going to, is going to world where humans are gonna start talking less to each other, and it's gonna be a lot, a lot more AI talking to each other, and then AI interpreting that information to humans, to me, that's probably what's gonna happen next, and it's gonna be the next killer, killer app, but we are, we're some years away from that.
[01:06:53] Josh DeTar: I was kind of hoping you were gonna talk about that, you, you've mentioned AI a few times, I was like, man, if I don't, I'd be a terrible host if I didn't get you to talk a little bit about what you're looking at in AI. You know, it's interesting, you were bringing up the, you know, personal assistant thing, too. So, I was driving him back home last night, he's in town, and he is staying at house, and he came over for dinner, and I was driving him home, and we were talking about voice banking, and he was like, "Man, I still just, I still hold out hope." He's like, "I, you know, it just makes so much sense for me,
[01:07:26] I'm in the car, I got nowhere to go, I'm stuck, I wanna be productive, man, wouldn't it be nice to just be able to get some of my banking done." And he was like, "You know, think about being able to move from your house to your car, to your screen, to your, and your virtual assistant just walks you through and is helping you move money, pay bills, do the things that you need to do, the transactional elements of banking."
[01:07:53] And I couldn't help but think about, you know, what you were talking about with, like, the Metaverse and things, it just, it didn't have the, it wasn't the killer app, it just wasn't quite enough to get the adoption that it needed, people weren't quite ready for it. Will it ever happen? I don't know, but, you know, we're kind of in that infancy stage of our personal assistance, we have, you know, Alexa and we have Siri, and, um, they're in our homes and they're in our cars, and they're in our phones, but it's not quite there yet.
[01:08:22] Jay Tkachuk: Well, it's because we have Alexa and Google Assistant and Siri, right? Our, there is none of them that we trust, like, none of them is ours, like, yours, right? There is, there is no AI assistant that lives in justice home, right, and you know that it has been trained to have your interest in mind, and it knows everything about you, and it knows how you work, and it knows, you know, it knows what kind of coffee you like, right, in the morning and it,
[01:08:50] Josh DeTar: All of it.
[01:08:50] Jay Tkachuk: you know, all of it, exactly, but
[01:08:52] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[01:08:53] Jay Tkachuk: you know, but, but it, it knows these things, it knows how, how you work. So, it knows that, it knows that, you know, hey, you are stuck in traffic, so, hey, you know, there's, bills are due,
[01:09:02] how about, like, do you want me to help you deal with this, right? Today you have to interact with the variety of virtual assistants, all of which are very shallow, and none of whom, none of, none of whom, none of which that you trust, right, right? I wouldn't trust Alexa with paying my bills because I know that it's Amazon behind Alexa, right?
[01:09:23] I have no problem with Alexa itself, I have a problem with Amazon having access to all my stuff, right? Same thing what goes with Siri, same thing goes with Google Assistant, or any other, you know, conversational AI, which is why it, it has failed is because that's exactly what those companies wanted to accomplish, but they never managed to cultivate the level of trust because ultimately it is these assistance have to live with you,
[01:09:47] they have to almost become like a part of your household, right? Even in terms of tangible, physical stuff that you can touch, right, some sort of a central hub where that thing lives, and it only lives there.
[01:09:59] Josh DeTar: I'm ready for my Iron Man suit and Jarvis.
[01:10:02] Jay Tkachuk: There, there you go, exactly.
[01:10:03] Josh DeTar: Sign me up. I'm, I'm in on the prototype, man.
[01:10:05] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, me, me too, exactly, Jarvis is awesome, right? But we're not there yet, uh, and until, until we are, it's, everything's gonna be human-driven and, uh, yes, we will evolve towards where, uh, you know, society where AI augments a lot of things you do, it does not happen right now, you know, because what, the attempt was go consumer, go retail, right,
[01:10:27] go, uh, like mass, mass market, right? But go very broad, but very shallow, that approach has failed. I think that eventually what's gonna happen is it's actually gonna go from the other side, from at work, you're gonna go to work, and at work, you're gonna have a personal AI system that understands the kind of work you do and will help you or assist you and augment you like,
[01:10:48] you know, instead of flipping through Tableau dashboards, right, you will just come in and like, "Jarvis, like, what is, what is going on today?" And the Jarvis will say, "Well, you know, online banking is melting down, but, you know, whatever is, everything else is great, so, you know," or, "You have this meeting spending your decisions," or whatever it is, right? So, that is gonna happen there first, and from there is going to evolve into something that actually lives with us in our homes.
[01:11:17] Josh DeTar: How much have you played around with ChatGPT?
[01:11:20] Jay Tkachuk: Uh, a bit, you know, and I, I have played about, played with it, and I have to say it is a, an impressive platform and what, what it can do, but the most sur, well, I guess I can't say it's more surprising, but the society we live in, but just amount of, of, of hype in terms of, oh my God, this thing is gonna, like, take our jobs or it's, it's sentient or whatever,
[01:11:42] like, I find that somewhat chemical, honestly, it's like, we, we're facing a moment where we have gotten these things, like, the machine learning platforms that we have, like, we call it AI, but it's, it's very narrow AI, right? It, it doesn't think, right, it, it only spits out stuff that we have trained it to process.
[01:12:04] So, it's kind of like a, a mirror test, right? In, in psychology and anthropology, you have this mirror test when you test whether particular animal or, uh, you know, has a sense of self and can actually recognize itself the first time it sees itself in the mirror. We are going through something similar at this moment in time with that,
[01:12:24] we have created these things that are incredibly good at mimicking how we talk and how we interact, right, with no back thought of their own whatsoever, and it's, it's frankly starting to create, like, a, a minor hysteria in, in the society, like, like, wow, you know, these things are so smart and, you know, yeah, it is gonna, it's gonna come for our jobs,
[01:12:47] it's gonna do this, it's gonna do that, you know, ChatGPT is gonna, first is going to start writing all the college essays, you know, so students are not gonna learn anything, you know, the next thing is going, is gonna start teaching all the, all the college classes. And so, is it gonna be some of that? Yes,
[01:13:02] right? Is it actually going to disrupt whole, whole, you know, the way we live? I don't think so, it's, it's the next evolution of search, it's gonna make search much more convenient and informative. It'll be interesting to see how they're gonna deal with biases because, uh, you know, uh, when Zuckerberg said, like, back in the day that a dying squirrel in front of your house is more relevant to you than, you know, kids going hungry in Africa,
[01:13:27] like, then I knew it's gonna be trouble, I didn't, couldn't dissipate with just the, the scale of trouble we're gonna end up in where we are today with the info bubbles that surround us, each, each and every one of us, and there is no single source of truth anymore, and then, you know, alternative facts and all that jazz.
[01:13:45] So, I hope that, that these new tools are gonna do away with some of that because they're being trained on a much more massive dataset. And so, those, those biases that we're now aware exist will, will be worked out. And so, we, at least, return to living in the same factual reality, right? We can still have disagreements about stuff, and that's, that's normal, debate is great, right?
[01:14:09] But we, we can be civil about it and, and be, uh, we can at least, it, stem from the same reality, right? So, we, we're discussing the same things, it's just our opinions differ. So, now, so change in optimization is gonna get very interesting once this thing start to roll out because it's a, it's a, that's a sea change, right?
[01:14:28] That's, that's a completely, complete new approach to how search engine's ranking is gonna work. So, we need to get, get ahead of that, right, there's, there's some noise about, you know, semantic SEO and whatever, like, preparing for virtual assistance to, you know, to crawl your website, that is coming, too,
[01:14:45] but that, that's, that's farther off, like, right now, we need to prepare for the, uh, ChatGPT or, you know, Google's lambda, uh, driven change to how rankings work and how, uh, so that we can maintain and, not being improve, just maintain how the rankings that we already have because the, this thing, this thing is gonna disrupt everything
[01:15:04] how, in the search industry. So, like, I don't buy into the hype, right, you know, Elon Musk said that AI's gonna destroy us, possibly, right, if, if somebody's stupid enough to train the AI we have today and doing nothing but killing people, yeah, it's gonna get really good at killing people, I just hope that we're not that stupid as a species to do something like this, but it's not gonna do it by itself.
[01:15:27] Josh DeTar: Yeah, that's, you know, there's, it's always the person behind the machine, right, who wrote the code.
[01:15:32] Jay Tkachuk: Absolutely. Yep.
[01:15:33] Josh DeTar: And, and it is really interesting thinking about, um, you know, like the trolley car scenario, right? And trying to think through, okay, how do we teach this AI, you know, if you, you know, pull the lever, the trolley goes left, and it kills a baby,
[01:15:50] but if you don't pull the lever, it keeps going straight, and it kills 10 elderly people, like, who trains it, how to decide what to do it, you know, it's, I dunno, I guess I'm glad I'm not the one having to do it.
[01:16:03] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, exactly. So, well, but we're still, we're still thinking those terms that, you know, AI has to make that decision, that split decision, right? Because we, we're projecting our human limitations onto it, because we can only see a certain amount of distance ahead, right? We, we have a certain amount, certain detention span, we have, we have in the auditory limitations,
[01:16:24] we, we, you know, AI does, doesn't, doesn't have those, it can see a lot farther than we, it can see through walls if we give that, that ability, it can run predictive modeling much faster and a much massive scale than we do. So, I don't think we're gonna be, if we do this right, we're gonna be in a situation when AI has to make that decision because it'll see it happening way in advance, it'll make preventative actions that, that will basically prevent it from even making this decision.
[01:16:55] Josh DeTar: Interesting. Yeah, it is just, it's, it's really cool to see how it's evolving and how it's, just kind of coming into our life, and like you said, uh, I think one of the early, early areas we're gonna see some disruption from that is things like search engine optimization, it was actually really interesting,
[01:17:11] I was, um, with Siva yesterday, and he was saying he had to take his car to the, um, DEQ, to get DEQ, and like, super long line, but apparently they had a, like, do-it-yourself station, you just had to plug it into the OBD two port, and Siva was like, "I'm not a car person, I don't know where this OBD two port is."
[01:17:32] So, he started googling and, you know, he kept putting in, you know, "2015 Hyundai, like, where's the OBD port," and show me an image and couldn't find it and couldn't find it, and tried to watch a YouTube video and it was a different model, and finally he gave up, and he just went to ChatGPT, and he said, "Give me step-by-step directions for how to find the OBD two port in this car." And it literally gave him perfect step-by-step instructions, and he found it in 10 seconds, plugged it in, and away he went, and he was like, "Ah, that's pretty cool."
[01:18:07] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, it is. The, the ability of these things to synthesize information that is consumable, you know, by us, uh, is, is great, right? So, I, I'm actually looking forward to, to search being that smart because today you get, uh, you get this, you know, a number of, uh, of results that you have to make sense of, right?
[01:18:30] With ChatGPT or, or something similar, it'll actually give you the answer, it not make you look through things, it'll actually give you the answer, and, and that is something that I'm looking forward to, not just in a general search, but I'll say things like knowledge management within companies, right? How many times you have to look for a procedure, right?
[01:18:49] And it spits out this PDF document that you, and you have to now fish for the answer, where something like this can actually tell you what, what it is that you're looking for within, like, 30 seconds or less, like, here it is, you know, in a, in a very consumable bite-size information that it leads you exactly to what you need to accomplish.
[01:19:09] Josh DeTar: Yeah, yeah, it was really interesting. The other example Siva was given me that he used of just how impressive it is at synthesizing data and then just using technology for some of the things that typically we would've relied on, would've been a very unique skill set from a human. So, I, you know, Siva, I apologize when you listen to this, if I get the story wrong, but it's something to the effect of he had to, um, create a legal contract for something, for his dad's estate back in India. And so, one, he needed to create this very specific legal document, and then two, it actually had to be in his native tongue.
[01:19:45] Jay Tkachuk: Mm-hmm.
[01:19:46] Josh DeTar: So, he actually went to ChatGPT and said, "This is exactly what I need this contract, this is the guts that I need this contract to have in it." And he said it spit out something like 95% there.
[01:19:57] He just had to make a few minor tweaks, a few, like, some of the areas didn't quite sound human or quite correct legal language, he had to make a few tweaks, he was like, "But the bones were there, it saved me hours." And then he just took that and put it into Google Translate and Google Translate translated it to his native tongue, almost flawlessly.
[01:20:18] Again, couple minor tweaks, and he was done, he said this was a thing that probably should have taken him all day, and it ended up taking him, like, 20 minutes to do.
[01:20:27] Jay Tkachuk: Yes. The, the productivity boost that these technologies bring to us are, you know, is amazing, we just have to learn how to use it properly, and actually adapt it at the workplace, right? Right now it's still being sort of played with in the, uh, in the consumer space, but it's inevitable that we're gonna, we're gonna start utilizing these platforms, you know, at our place of work because, again, it'll save us hours, hours and hours of stuff, of time.
[01:20:53] The difficulty will be, again, it's basically fencing this, something like this, all within the limits of your, of your company, right? Because you don't want to, you don't wanna upload your data to ChatGPT, right? Or, or, or Google or whatever because, like, your data is your competitive advantage.
[01:21:12] Josh DeTar: Mm-hmm.
[01:21:12] Jay Tkachuk: Period, end of story. So, it's, it, it, if you share it with, with other platforms, you are eroding that advantage, now you can, just have to learn how to, how to use it that way yourself.
[01:21:23] Josh DeTar: When you say your data is your advantage, kind of coupling that with what you were just talking about with the fact that, you know, AI and things like ChatGPT are gonna be so much better at synthesizing large amounts of data. So, you know, one of the things that has made community financial institutions special, like what you called out earlier, is, you know, it was that face-to-face.
[01:21:47] And, you know, Josh, he's a, a teller at the branch and he just, he knows me so well. So, he knows all about me, he knows my financial position, he knows where he can help, and he knows what products and services are important to me, and, oh, you know, Jay, he's been with the credit union for 25 years, he has so much knowledge, but when AI has more knowledge than either of the two of us because it can look at far vaster data sets and actually synthesize that data, then it's gonna be really important to identify how do we use that to augment our people
[01:22:20] because, like you were saying, the financial institution is the people. So, how do we use the technology to augment the people so the people can be better people, to be better at being the institution that they set out to be?
[01:22:30] Jay Tkachuk: Well, I mean, in your example, right? So, if, if you are a teller, right, you only know about the, uh, the member that you are working with as much as that member is willing to share with you over time, right? But with, uh, with machine learning and such, such analysis, right, it can augment you your ability to like, hey, actually, like, what is happening is even though this member didn't tell you this, but they're looking for, for a new home, for instance, right?
[01:22:58] They're, based on their behavior, based on their little, life stage, they're looking for, looking for a new home and based where they live now and, you know, what we know about their family, like they did, you know, all these details pop up. So, now you as a human that is interacting with, with the member can weave that in your conversation and actually have, you know, intrusively, you know, to, to your point, like unless, you know, you, you offer this type of product, right,
[01:23:25] that they'll never come to you. So, now you can weave that in, in the conversation and like, and, you know, and by the way, you know, have you, have you talked to, to, to Bob over there who is our home advisor, you know? So, whenever, if you in the market, you know, see what, see, see what Bob can do for you, or you can go to our website, right,
[01:23:42] interact with our platform so you can play with various scenarios and see what kind of rates you get, right, and it'll be great if you do it with us, but if, you know, if you don't, we understand, right? Somebody's better than us. So, that's how the machine learning technology can augment what we already do, right?
[01:23:58] And, and on the flip side, if somebody just comes to the website and starts playing with it, with, let's say mortgage calculators or, or whatnot, right, AI is smart enough, uh, to stitch that, that activity, uh, with everything else that knows about you as a visitor, right, through, through first-party cookies or whatever,
[01:24:19] and over time, build a whole profile about you as a, as a person, what you do, what you're interested in, what kind of stuff we should be talking to you about, and at some point, it'll find out who you are, actually, whether you are gonna, you know, submit a leads form or whatever, right, give us an email address, give us your phone number,
[01:24:37] we can figure out who you actually are, and now when you interact with us through either digital or in a, through call center or in a branch, right? That conversation is so much richer because it is not, even though you've never talked to us, let's say on, on, on the phone, you never called us before, ever, that information available, is available to the call center agent,
[01:24:57] they can have a much richer and more informed conversation with you about what your needs are and what the kind of, kind of problems, you know, we need to solve with you then that being completely, like, blank slate, right? There's no, we know nothing about you at all. So, that is where the value of this technologies will come in, is, is providing that context for all the interactions that you have with us,
[01:25:19] you know, and what kind of needs you may have, so we can anticipate those needs, and whenever you talk to us, we can, we can at least try to address them, right, in, in a positive way, like, you know, it definitely can go very Big Brother, and we need to stay away from that, but it, mistakes will be made, you know, we will learn, uh,
[01:25:40] Josh DeTar: Mistakes will be made.
[01:25:41] Jay Tkachuk: you know, we will learn, right, but we will evolve towards, uh, towards those type of capabilities when we have this rich, very rich conversations, whether through, whether interacting with our bots on our website, the website itself, our self-service platforms, call center branches, whatever, right?
[01:25:59] We, we know all this stuff about you, and we're not gonna bombard you with ads, right? But we'll just, we'll just talk, we'll, we'll figure that, we'll interact with you in a way that you will find unobtrusive and useful, and, uh, hopefully, will, again, be the top on, top of mind that when you have a problem in the financial space, we're your first stop when you, you know, that, you know, you may not know that we have the solution or an answer, but we are the first stop you have to go to find out, right? And we will then route you as appropriate and, and, you know, and may hopefully have a solution that fits your needs.
[01:26:37] Josh DeTar: Jay, I think that's kind of a, a good way to sum it up, right, is our goal is hopefully technology helps make us better humans. I think the unfortunate truth is, um, you know, like what we literally started the conversation on today, unfortunately, there's some not-so-great humans out there and, you know, technology's gonna, gonna aid in that as well, but the hope is that we use this stuff for good, right?
[01:27:00] And we use it for ways to be better people, be better humans, be better to each other, be better, you know, service providers for our members. So, I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
[01:27:10] Jay Tkachuk: Yes, there is.
[01:27:11] Josh DeTar: Well, Jay, before I, uh, before I let you go back to your day, man, I have two final questions for you. So, the first is, I gotta say, like, again, I have to reiterate, if you have listened to this podcast today, trust me, you absolutely have to go follow my friend Jay on LinkedIn, I'm telling you it's some of the best stuff out there. But, Jay, where do you go to get your information?
[01:27:36] Jay Tkachuk: So, actually, LinkedIn is one of those things, like I, I myself follow quite a few people that are very interesting and across a broad spectrum of technology and science. I read a few periodicals, you know, like Financial Brand and, you know, payments that come, uh, come to mind, I read science, you know, science, science, I read periodicals,
[01:27:55] I read Wired, I, I try to stay, stay in touch, you know, I read blogs, I, you know, it, one good thing about those, uh, info-bubble algorithms that, that I kind of complain about, right, they kind of know now that what, what I'm interested in. So, when I tap into my Google feed or my LinkedIn feed, there's a lot of stuff that I find interesting.
[01:28:15] So, there's a benefit there, clear benefit. So, that is, uh, that is how I do, uh, you know, I, I do like reading books, so I, I think my Kindle library right now is, like, 3000-some titles that, or which I have probably read, probably read just a few hundred, right? So, I, I, I am, I'm set for, for life already.
[01:28:37] Josh DeTar: I was gonna say, he could have left that out, we would've thought you read 3000 books already.
[01:28:40] Jay Tkachuk: No, no, I'm not, I wish, right, but, uh, in addition to that, I am quite aware that like, well, you know, I'm human, right? So, I have blind spots, so education is very important and even structured education. So, for instance, I recently went through, uh, Kellogg's CDO certification program, which accomplishes goal,
[01:29:02] I wanted to know about things that I don't know that I don't know, right, there's things that I know I know, things I know I don't know, but it's those blind spots that I, I know I have, but I'm not aware what's, what's there, uh, why I took the program. And, uh, it was, let's say it, it opened my eyes on a few things that, either had a misconception about, or it just was played wrong about, right?
[01:29:25] And so, it, it was a great experience. So, pushing myself and, and frankly, you know, you know, being where I am and what I do, right, carving out the time to go through a year-long program like this was, was painful, right, but we, as we, as we mentioned, right, that, that, uh, stepping out of your comfort zone and, and pushing yourself is what, is what creates progress ultimately.
[01:29:50] So, uh, I'm glad I did that, I will probably continue to do stuff like this with breaks in between, just, just so I don't have to, you know, exercise mobile power all the time because, you know, you know, when you have to do this, and there's an external demand for you to do it, it makes that decision a lot easier.
[01:30:06] So, I, I now have to put myself in that situation, I mean, that, that's one of the reasons that, that I did martial arts for so long, it's like, I was never the strongest guy in the room, right, or the fastest guy in the room, but I wanted to be able to improve myself, right? Not only that, but I, I wanted to know how will react when I step onto the mat, right?
[01:30:24] Because it's like, like anything in life, it's, it's all about, your main opponent is you, right, there, there is, there is no, um, there is no worse opponent in life than yourself, that, that inner voice in your head that, that tells you that, you know, maybe you shouldn't do that, or, you know, you know, you're not good enough or whatever.
[01:30:44] So, now I know, like, I have conquered that, I have, I have stepped onto the mat and got my butt kicked quite a few times, right, and, and it's all good, you know, I'm still here, so I have learned a lot, right? I, I'm never gonna be
[01:30:58] Josh DeTar: I think that's
[01:30:59] Jay Tkachuk: I'm never gonna be Bruce Lee, right, but, you know, good enough for me.
[01:31:03] Josh DeTar: I think that's such good advice, Jay. I, you don't know how you're gonna react until you step on the map.
[01:31:08] Jay Tkachuk: Yes.
[01:31:09] Josh DeTar: And that's not just in martial arts, right?
[01:31:11] Jay Tkachuk: No, it's everywhere.
[01:31:12] Josh DeTar: It's, it's everywhere. Well, Jay, if people want to learn more about you or connect with you, and if they wanna learn a little bit more about your credit union, how can they do that?
[01:31:22] Jay Tkachuk: The best way to do it is connect, connect with me on LinkedIn, uh, LinkedIn is the only social media platform that I use, please reach out, you know, I, I'm glad to have a conversation with anybody, uh, as long as, uh, the schedule allows. So, that's the best way to find it.
[01:31:36] Josh DeTar: Awesome. And what about, uh, the credit union?
[01:31:40] Jay Tkachuk: So, go to golden1.com, that's, that's our portal to the world, you know, watch it. I've been with the, with the credit union for just six months, and I haven't really touched it quite yet, the, uh, the website I will, in the next year, actually this, this year. So, watch us evolve, watch what we do, ask me questions, you know, you know where to find me.
[01:32:02] Josh DeTar: Awesome. Thanks, Jay, it's always a pleasure talking to you, I always enjoy the rabbit holes and all the good info that comes out of it, so thanks for being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast.
[01:32:12] Jay Tkachuk: Thanks, Josh, it was great to, to talk to you, my friend.
