Raymond | Chapter 5

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This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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You know, ever since I moved to Gilmer. I remember
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that I was pregnant when I moved to Gilmer with Raymond,
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and they always talked about Satan. Gilmer talked about Satan
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worshippers all the time. They were the weirdest. I mean,
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I always thought that was so weird. I'll never forget
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one time everybody was picking up their daughters and stuff
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from the Junior High because they was supposed to sacrifice
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the blonde virgin.
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This is Tammy Joe Smith. It was the mid eighties
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when Tammy moved to Gilmer, about seven years before the
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disappearance of Kelly Day Wilson, before the investigation into Satanic rituals,
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cannibalism and murder that shocked the small East Texas town.
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At the time, Tammy had no idea that Gilmer's fear
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of the devil would forever change her life and all
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but tear apart her family.
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The Satan worshipers were trying to grab a girl, you know,
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the blonde virgin, to sacrifice to the devil. And that
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was the first rumors I heard in Gilmer and I'm like,
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they got a freaking church on every corner in this
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camp town. Literally, I mean literally, there's fifty freaking I mean,
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I mean there's a church everywhere. But all I ever
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heard people talk about was Satan worshipers. I never met
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one Satan worshiper. The whole fifteen years, I never met one,
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And still this day, I don't know if I've ever
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met one. And the funny thing too, is my girlfriend
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lived out in the country and preach it. And she'd say,
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I hear channing, and I hear you know, and she goes,
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there's zacrifice. I'm like, it's probably the freaking ku Klux
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Klan because they're so prejudiced. They're meeting out in the
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middle of nowhere do the thing. I've always thought that.
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I always thought their Kuklux planning was the big Satanic
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thing they were talking about.
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Tammy was just seventeen when she settled in Gilmert and
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had her oldest son, Raymond. Not long after, Tammy met
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a man named Down.
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I was very into the church community, the Pentecostal church.
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I met Don at church. He was a good looking
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older man and I thought that he was coming over
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to my house actually to see my mom. Because he's
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older than I am, and so I never looked at
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him really as a boyfriend type, you know, until later,
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I mean like a month later. But he was a
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friendly I thought he was smart and good looking and
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funny and all the good things. Now he's not as
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funny as he used to be, but thinks he's funny.
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Now here's Don whoo Man with that picture of her.
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The sweeter you got to Tammy, the sweeter she was bad.
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My name is Don Holman. I've got two honorable discharges
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in an army, four years in Hell on wheels, two
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six month tours in Germany, and now I'm noted for
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being a bible hauling. I mean I'm a bible thumper.
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Don was in his mid thirties, divorced. Even when he
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was just getting to know Tammy, Don already started helping
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out with her son, Raymond, who was born with a
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cleft palate. The condition had left baby Raymond with an
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opening in his lip and roof of his mouth, requiring
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corrective surgeries.
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After a while, I noticed that Tammy had this little
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deformed baby. He got a buying ladder cleft palette, and
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this baby is squirt milk about his nose. There ain't
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nothing there the inside of his liop, The top part
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was on the outside, and I'd get in there and
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she'd be just white. I mean, she'd be wiped out
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of sleep. I couldn't stand to get her up and
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say go without her feed, So I fed him, change diaper,
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put him back.
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Raymond was a baby. Raymond was like three months old
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when I met one two three months old, and Raymond
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was born with a hairlip. Dawn was very good at
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taking me to all my doctor's appointments and making sure that,
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you know, like during surgeries and stuff. So it was
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very supportive of Raymond and took on the father role
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right away. Raymon's daddy never had anything to do with us.
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Dawn and Tammy fell in love.
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After a while.
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I got the respecting her and she respected me, And
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I don't know how everybody else feels.
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Just because there.
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Was an age different and we get along with each
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other does not mean that I'm out of line or
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she's out of line. She's a grown woman had a baby.
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I don't think you know I'm.
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Doing the wrong as long as I do her right.
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And after while we got to lacking each other. One day,
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I said, me and you. She said yep, nobody else yep.
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I said, okay, And after like four years she said done.
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If you die, I don't have nothing to remember. You
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buy She said, I'd like to have a baby with you.
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And I said, how about it if I just buy
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you a car. She'd always says, stop acting stupid. I said,
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I ain't acting, I said, and right off she got pregnant.
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I said, Timmy, I don't have the money to pay
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for a baby. She said done. Everybody else who people
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all over the world's having kids, having on the welfare.
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And we had a kid.
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When Raymond was five years old. Don and Tammy had
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their son.
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Luther, beautiful baby that loved his mom and daddy. It
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was really just a simple life. I mean, you know,
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he'd go to work every day. I was a stay
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at home mom, and we went to church three four
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times a week.
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Don had a bunch of different jobs at times. He'd
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even worked as a reserve police officer, so he actually
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knew James York Brown, the Gilmer police sergeant who eventually
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would be accused of kidnapping and murdering Kelly Wilson.
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I didn't like James Brown. He was the cop you
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probably know about him. He was all right, but I
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thought he was a bad guy. Well, he's always smart
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enough to me, and you think you're badass or something.
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He said, I'm a boxer. He said, you every want
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to stop the car, get after it? He said we
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I said, well, I know how to box and I
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use my feet too. He said, you're in the martial arts.
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I said, I can kick you enough. You can't get
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close to me, and I said why, I said, We're
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gonna look real funny on side row. Two cops fighting.
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But he would do.
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Some people take it that they don't know them easy going.
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I'm not as smart ass or anything. So he'd take
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me to his house and his wife fixed chicken, and
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he treated him as good as gold.
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Don and Sergeant James York Brown patched things up. Years
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before Kelly's disappearance, Don and Tammy, Raymond and Luther lived
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in government housing in Gilmer. Their neighbor was a young
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woman named Wanda Hicks. She had two sons, the Hicks Kids,
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from a guy named Bad Jimmy.
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From what I understood is that those kids and Wanda
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were put in the project apartment right there. They were
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being filtered from her egg because her ex was abusive.
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From what I understand, the kids had mental problems from
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all that craft. I don't know why they went and
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said hey, you know, because they're the ones that actually
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started the accusations against me, and from what I understand,
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that's how we got into this.
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The name Wanda might sound familiar, open my mouth.
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They have threatened to kill Wanda.
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I had to say, Mark some Wanda's throw and I
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asked Wanda what happened to her throw?
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And she wouldn't tell me. I don't know she was
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scared to tell Mayor Wan.
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That's from the interrogation of Connie Martin, a suspect turned
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witness in the criminal investigation against the family accused of
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kidnapping and murdering Kelly Wilson. At first. Tammy says she
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has no inkling about the abuse allegations leveled against Wanda
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and the curs She.
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Was real strict with her kids, and that's why I
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thought she was a good mother, you know. I mean,
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I was, like, never seen her whip on. Her kids
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are knitting, you know, but she kept her kids in line.
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You know, they were pretty decent. I know the oldest
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one acted out a lot and got sent home from
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school a lot, like stabbing kids with orks and shit
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like that. But other than that, I mean, I don't
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know anything else about her. I know that when she married.
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When I met her, she wouldn't Maccurr. Her name was Hicks.
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And then she started dating Wendell. And Don knew Wendell through.
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You know, gilm were small town, all them guys, they
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were all raised together.
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Later investigators would claim that Wendell was the ringleader of
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the Kerr satanic cult in Gilmer.
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We had went to school together. I never had sex
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with none of the none of the Curve women, and
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uh never cared too.
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You know, they don't hang out together, but they all know.
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We all know each other because it's such a small town.
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Don's oh, I know him. That's that's Wendell Kerr, you know.
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And sometimes Don would say, hey, you know whatever. And
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then she was like, I'm gonna get I'm going to
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marry Wendell, and I was like, oh.
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That's sweet.
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I helped her get ready for her wedding to him,
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and I went out to the curR house, the old man,
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old woman Curve the mam and daddy. I was at
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their house one time for the wedding and we were there,
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saw me an hour, an hour and a half.
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Maybe I went out to wedding one time. They was
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a preacher window wing his wife got married. That kind
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of I did, just went to wedding the first thing,
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you know, I'm a cannibal to eating people in the
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bag that had a witch and circle.
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That was the only time I've ever really actually hung
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out with the Curves, you know. I mean other than that,
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I don't know anything else about them. I've never been
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around them except for hey, at the bus stop or whatever,
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you know, with our kids. Them kids were good kids.
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I thought.
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You know, Timmy's son Raymond wasn't really friends with the
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Hicks kids for a reason.
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Yeah. They lived across the sidewalk from us up here
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at the government housing. One of them was older than me,
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and I think one of them was younger than me.
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We would play every now and again. We didn't always
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get along because at one point Don had bought their bicycle.
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But I remember I came home from school one day
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I've been wanting a bicycle, and I went to my
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room and I had two bicycles, and I remember like
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being really excited, like those are both mine, and they're like, yeah,
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you got two bikes. But when I would go outside,
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they bought it from the neighbor. So the neighbor kids,
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they still looked at it as that was their bikes.
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You know. We would argue over those bicycles. But I
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was like, I said, I was the only child I
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won't used to sharing, And I was like, hold up,
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I got two bikes, the brand new, and I gotta
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let them ride one of them, like, you know, so
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we really like argue and fight over those bikes.
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One day, the Hicks kids were gone. Wendell Kerr and
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Wanda Hicks had just gotten married in a ceremony outside
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the curR home on Cherokee Trace. Days later, child Protective
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Services removed the cur and Hicks kids from the home.
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The Curves have been described as quote marginal characters in Gilmer,
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so most people around town probably didn't even notice that
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some country folks lost their kids.
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Ley Tope Wendell's kids a way because he had been
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accused of lessening his kids.
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The first time they came to the door, me and
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Don were asleep and they were wanting us to go
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down to the police station top and we agreed and
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we went and that's when they just started asking questions
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about the curves, and basically it was just, you know,
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have you ever seen Wanda Kerr hit her kids? And
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have you ever seen any kind of abuse? And I
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was like, no, you know, yeah, she's just a young girl.
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It's got all these little babies, and you know, I
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thought she was a pretty decent mom.
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The two Hicks boys were placed with foster mom Barbara
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Bass and her husband Karls. If the name Barbara Bass
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sounds familiar, she was mentioned in episode three. The Basses
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were in their early forties and lived in a big
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country home a little more than half an hour from
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gilmert They would have been empty nesters if they hadn't
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filled the house with foster children. Barbara described herself as
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very down to earth, very basic and trying to help people.
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She had been the East Texas Foster Parents of the Year.
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I think the year before.
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That was Melvin Dodd, the founding member of the Justice
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for Kelly Wilson Committee. Back then, there was this amusement
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park in Shreveport, Louisiana, just across the state line from Texas.
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I remember the commercials when I was a kid and
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always wanted to go. Never got to. Raymond did though.
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Our church went out to an amusement park called Hamil Park,
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and while we were there, the Hicks kids were in
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Foster Hume and we saw it with their foster parents
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our church group, and they'd waved or something and they
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wouldn't let us talk to them. Like the foster parents
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that they were with were kind of like, hey, y'all
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need to keep those distance type thing. And I was
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a kid who were just kind of like waved at
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each other. When they asked one of those Hicks boys,
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like how do you know that kid? They were like
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he was our neighbor. And then they were like, well,
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did y'all's parents abuse him too? And one of them
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were like yeah, so one of them kids and lied
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to her or whatever falster parents they were with, saying
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00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.320
that I had been molested with them, like all like
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in some big group or something like some kid orgy
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or something. I don't know, like that's how we got
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drawled into the.
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Whole myth Raymond never should have waved to those Hicks kids.
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What he describes as a typical childhood.
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It was school, church, family, school, church, family, like those
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my life for the first seven years.
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That life as he knew it was over from imperative entertainment.
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I'm Wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is Chapter five.
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Raymond Raymond Smith is thirty six years old now. He's skinny,
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dark hair, dark eyes. After bouncing around some he recently
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moved back to Gilmour and lives with his stepdad, Don Holman.
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In the early nineties, during the Kerr and Kelly Wilson investigations,
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Raymond was said to be a smart and inquisitive little boy.
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I can remember my mom had set me down on
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a back porch one day up there, and she said
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something along the line like somebody wants to come speak
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with you or something like that. Whoever it is comes
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to talk to us, be honest with them, telling them
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the truth. And when I asked questions.
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In the very, very very beginning, they kept the cops
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kept saying. He said, Okay, if we let somebody talk
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00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.279
to Raymond at school, I said, go go talk to him.
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00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.840
They questioned Raymond five times. I mean, how many damn
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00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.960
times were they gonna go questioning until he said something?
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I mean basically is what it was. You know, they
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weren't gonna quit going up there.
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Probably about like a week or so after that, I
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00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.919
was playing in the front yard one day and sheriff's
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00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:41.879
apartment pulled up.
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That's when I get a knock at the door and
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00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.000
they're coming to take my kids away.
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They had a mixed stack of papers they told my mom.
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They were like, uh, we're here to take the kids.
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I wasn't frightened at the time because none was a patrolman,
293
00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.160
you know, like so I wasn't scared of pouense.
294
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Don happened to be out of town that day. Raymond's
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00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:13.039
little brother, Luther, only two years old, was absolutely terrified.
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I will never forget them taken him from us and
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00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.440
him screaming at the top as once, I.
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00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:25.920
Want my daddy, I want my daddy. They told us,
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00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.079
they said, you know, uh, you can get something for you,
300
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:31.839
you know, go grab you a toy. You can get
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00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.759
your brother a toy. And uh, I grabbed a Bible
302
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.440
that the church told give me. It was it was
303
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:43.000
blue and silver, had my name Raymond Smith printed on it,
304
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:47.440
like real nice professional like printed into it, and uh,
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00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:58.920
I grabbed Luther's pillow and then they hauled us down
306
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:03.640
to rain and it took us to a Falster family.
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00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.559
That first family. They were real nice. We were out
308
00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.599
of our element, but it was a normal, you know situation.
309
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.119
They bring me, h I think they did bring me
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00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.440
for a visit with my mom and them, my mom
311
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.119
and Don, and then usually it was to go see
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00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.799
Ang goere. She was ahead of the case at time.
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00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.359
We've talked about a Gore throughout the series. She was
314
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.720
the first CPS worker to discover abuse in the Kerr family.
315
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.599
Now a gore was protecting Raymond also.
316
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.880
Then there was a day that they brought me up
317
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.119
there and Gore was like, I want to introduce you
318
00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.640
to a friend of mine and she wants to ask
319
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.720
you some questions. And then next thing I know, we're
320
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.839
like going to get in the van. There ain't no
321
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.480
seats in the van, and they're like, I want you
322
00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.640
to lay down. They had me laid down in the
323
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.519
back and Barbara Vass was laid down there beside me.
324
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.279
Yes, that Barbara Bass, the foster parent. She had come
325
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.119
to the CPS office in her forge van to help
326
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.759
angre coax some information out of Raymond.
327
00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.400
And she said, well, you know, you don't be scared.
328
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.599
We're just gonna ask you some questions this and that,
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00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:23.799
and A Gore was driving and Debbie Mianto was in
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the passenger seat. I believe we rode out of the
331
00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.880
CPS office and at that time what they were asking
332
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.599
us about was all about being molested or touched or
333
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.720
something along the lines of that, you know, And I
334
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:40.680
tell them no. They say, well, did they touch he?
335
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.039
I say no, I ain't never been touched or nothing
336
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.319
like that, Like, you know, where's this? You know, like
337
00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:48.200
when you're a kid, you don't realize what the hell's
338
00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:53.960
going on. But that ended up turning into Barbara basketting
339
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:58.400
behind me and wrapping her arms around me, and then
340
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.559
she took her legs, hold my legs down, and she
341
00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.559
take her thumb and sticking in my rib cane chair
342
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.720
and rub up and down on my ribs.
343
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.079
Barbara Bass, who died in twenty seventeen, was using the
344
00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.680
holding technique, a controversial therapy of restraining kids like in
345
00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.240
a bear hug that was supposed to help them form
346
00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:23.680
a bond with their foster parents. But Barbara Bass had
347
00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.640
adapted the holding technique for her own purposes.
348
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:31.440
Apparently there was some kind of radical theory about getting
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00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:35.119
kits to disclose things they wouldn't normally disclose through this
350
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.160
holding technique.
351
00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.640
This is former Assistant Attorney General Shane Phelps.
352
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.599
Which in what I came to understand about this holding
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00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.359
technique was that it was just torture.
354
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.319
What is the holding technique?
355
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.119
The theory behind it, I guess is that the children
356
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:56.160
have to be I guess, forced to disclose. They hold
357
00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.440
them tightly, like I mean, it's a crime. Actually it's on.
358
00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.039
They're holding these children tightly and they will not let
359
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.359
go of them until they disclose what they think this
360
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.680
child has to disclose.
361
00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.400
I remember I was saying no, no, you know, and
362
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.079
I'm squirming. I'm fighting with her, and then she would
363
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:20.920
ask me questions repetitively, you know, did your parents do this?
364
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:22.720
Did they touch you? Did they touch you?
365
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.240
At some point, Raymond says, A Gore climbed into the
366
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.400
back of the van with him and Barbara Bass and.
367
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.519
Gore was in the back there and she was holding
368
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.079
my legs down because I was fighting and swirming and everything.
369
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.920
Barbara couldn't hold me down or whatnot. At that time,
370
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.720
they had a big billboard sign right there where the
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00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:43.920
subway is now here in Gimmer there was a big
372
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:48.119
billboard sign and it said Kelly Wilson, you know, And
373
00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.640
I remember seeing that when we were leaving the CPS office.
374
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.480
I was laid down in that van and I can see,
375
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.880
you know, the Gary Queen sign. Now I've seen that
376
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.119
Kelly Wilson sign. And the next thing I know, all
377
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.440
I can see is tree. You know, we're on some
378
00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:03.119
old top Roadbacker.
379
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.920
Barbara Bass and the caseworkers and Gore and Debbie Minshew
380
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.839
had driven Raymond out of town into the woods.
381
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:11.559
Well what the hell are these people doing? You know?
382
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.440
And so they kept rubbing my ribs and asking me questions,
383
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.680
you know, did did your mom? And Donald less few
384
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.519
and uh I was, you know, no, no, no, no.
385
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:28.759
Finally I said yes. And when I would tell her yes,
386
00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.880
she would stop rubbing my ribs, you know, and then
387
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.119
like kind of pan for me, like oh, it's okay,
388
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.480
you know, nobody's gonna hurt you no more. We're here now.
389
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:43.039
And then and then she'd start right back again, you know,
390
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:49.359
asking more stuff. And I remember feeling like I remember
391
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:51.680
feeling like they were gonna kill me or something like
392
00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:57.200
because I didn't know what's going on, and so I
393
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.559
said something like along the lines where I said Kelly
394
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.160
Wilson's name, I've seen that sign.
395
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.519
Okay, did you hear that right there? That was the
396
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.640
first time Kelly Wilson, the missing teenager, was ever connected
397
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.039
to the Kirk case. Raymond was confessing to anything and
398
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.440
everything to stop the women from hurting him when he
399
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:23.119
blurted out Kelly's name. Raymond would eventually tell Barbara Bass
400
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.200
that he also took part in something much bigger.
401
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.559
It was for more than an hour, just not letting
402
00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.160
this kid go with I guess steps struggling, and then
403
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.839
they would take their knuckles and they would rub it
404
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:41.799
painfully up and down his ribs until, according to them,
405
00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:48.359
disclosed this satanic coven and in the process, soiled himself.
406
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.039
So I mean basically they, from my perspective, they tortured him,
407
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.920
he soiled himself. And for them, again, this is part
408
00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:01.200
of that dynamic where they think, if something happens, it
409
00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:04.200
just the only thing that registers in their brain is, oh,
410
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:07.799
this must have been such an important disclosure for this
411
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.279
child that he actually soiled himself. So in their mind,
412
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.720
that proved that it was true, and I mean that
413
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.759
is from my perspective, perverted thinking. It is, you have
414
00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.880
your mindset on something, and all you are going to
415
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:27.519
perceive are things that tangentially prove what you think is
416
00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:33.240
going on. It's a cognitive bias where you form an
417
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.279
opinion and all you're going to perceive are things that
418
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:43.279
inform and prove that opinion and ignore anything that doesn't.
419
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:47.160
Raymond insists he didn't soil himself. He says, one of
420
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.960
the women soiled herself and let Raymond take the blame.
421
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.640
I don't know how much like time passed from that
422
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:57.960
first time I met Marba Bath, but one day they
423
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.400
told me, they said, you and your brother getting ready
424
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.559
to go to a new home. I didn't know it,
425
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:07.119
but I was going to Barbara Basson's home. She realized
426
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.799
that I could spot landmarks and was familiar with the area.
427
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.039
From that day forward, when they would drive me to
428
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.799
Gilmour back and forth from their house, I was always
429
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:24.319
blindfold got to their house and there was a bunch
430
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:26.720
of kids at her house, a whole bunch.
431
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.400
Of kids that would be the Kirk kids.
432
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.319
I knew two of them from the school bus, and
433
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.440
so that was kind of like a relief, like seeing somebody,
434
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:38.519
you know, after being taken away from everything that you know,
435
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.279
still not realizing that it was connected, that we were
436
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.799
involved in the same thing. They set all us kids
437
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.440
down there and they told us the house rules, no masturbating.
438
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:54.200
I was seven years old. I didn't know what masturbation was, Like,
439
00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:59.000
what's what's masturbating? You know, And all the other kids
440
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:01.079
are sitting there and they're looking at me and they're laughing.
441
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:05.119
They're like, you know what it is.
442
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:08.200
As Raymond settled into his new home, there were some
443
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.359
nice things about living with Barbara.
444
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:12.920
Bass, like this mixed emotion of like how even like
445
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:15.640
how I still remember it, like because there's a part
446
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.759
of my mind I remember it as like you know,
447
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:21.400
like man, we had all them toys and lived in
448
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.880
a real big home, and you know, like it's different
449
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.359
when you come from a project, you know, going into
450
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:31.400
an environment like that. You know, we had a pet tiger,
451
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.359
Like yeah, at the Bass home they had a tiger
452
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.119
tiger and it was a Bengal tiger and it was
453
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.160
only like a year old, over six foot tall. When
454
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.440
it would stand up on the tiny legs like spread out,
455
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:51.079
So that was pretty cool. They feed the tiger frozen chickens,
456
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:53.759
and about once a month they'd take a live chicken
457
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:56.960
and they'd throw it in there with a tiger and
458
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.720
it pounces around like like a regular high cat plays
459
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.759
with something. You know. They'd play with that chicken. Then
460
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.960
they'd kill it and it'd swim around pluck its feathers out.
461
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.000
So we'd sit there and watch it eat and stuff.
462
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.880
One day, Uh, we woke up and we all go
463
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:19.440
downstairs to breakfast. We'd all have breakfast in the dining area,
464
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.759
and we had chores to do and be on them,
465
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.079
you know, on the refrigerator door. You know, this day,
466
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:28.480
you feed the chickens, you do rabbit. They had animals,
467
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.400
and so you know, well she had marked on that
468
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.160
calendar holding day.
469
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.119
Holding day was not a happy day.
470
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:39.559
And I noticed, like all the other kids in the
471
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.079
in the house like they got like, you know, sketchy
472
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.960
and like depressed. One of the kids was telling me,
473
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.960
he's like, oh man, this whole day and everybody's like
474
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.640
in a real bad mood. There's like fifteen of us kids,
475
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.359
and we'd all line up on the right side of
476
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:00.240
the stairwell. And what she would do is she'd have us,
477
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.359
run up the right side of the steps, all the
478
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.079
way up the landings, all the way to the top floor,
479
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:08.640
all the way up, all the way down, all the
480
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.480
way up, all the way down. And I mean this
481
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.160
this went on for like, you know, an hour, two hours.
482
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.440
This was not like a run up there for like
483
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.640
ten minutes. And we're done with this thing. This was
484
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.240
an all day event. And I get tired. I kind
485
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.000
of like sit down, and the kids are telling me.
486
00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:26.480
They're like no, like like you know, they were terrified
487
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.720
because they've been through this. They're like, no, don't don't
488
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:34.039
do that, like, don't make her mad. Like everybody's getting
489
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.279
read in the face. Kids are starting to cry, and uh,
490
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.839
she would she would stand there on the on the
491
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:48.799
uh in the hallway, they're on the landing, and she'd like,
492
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.880
ridicule us. You know, that's why your parents don't love you,
493
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:57.400
and that's why your mom you and that's why your
494
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.920
daddy don't love you. And and so she's just yelling
495
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.880
all this vulgar shit the whole time we're running. And
496
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:06.759
so kids at different point in time are starting to
497
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.960
break down, crying. That's what she called it. Breakdown. The
498
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.480
first floor you had the kitchen. Second floor was like
499
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.920
a big living area with a bedroom. Then the third
500
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.839
floor you had bedrooms, and then that fourth floor was
501
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:20.960
like an attic. That was where me and two other boys stayed.
502
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.000
So there was like two or three girls that shared
503
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.200
a room on that third floor. Right at the top
504
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.400
of that stairwell, that was their room. Well, that's where
505
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:31.559
she would do the holdings.
506
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.680
It sounds like Barbara was trying to get the kids
507
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.519
tired so they wouldn't fight back when she deployed the
508
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.559
holding technique.
509
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.640
I still didn't realize what was going on that I'd
510
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.079
already experienced the rib reven and all that. Well, what
511
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:46.559
she knew is she pull them in there and she
512
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.640
get them on. She put us on that bed, and
513
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.039
you could hear you could hear the kids through the
514
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.400
door screaming. She'd go one at a time. She just
515
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.400
picked one all of a sudden. You know, she'd picked
516
00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:58.400
you out while you're running, all right, you come on,
517
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.640
and then she take them in there and she rub
518
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:04.359
the ribs and hold them down. You hear them screaming
519
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:08.000
and hollering and fighting and everything, and uh, you know,
520
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.039
you can hear her cussing and them cussing, and next thing,
521
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.160
you know, they come out and they're just worn out,
522
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:16.079
like you know, after that whole process, you're just tired.
523
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:21.119
You're like like, you know, draining, emotionally draining and uh.
524
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.079
And then they get to go outside, you know, and
525
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.559
go mess with you know, out in the yard, go
526
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.079
play games whatever. I was thinking they were just bad kids.
527
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.039
I was like, you know, dang, what the heck is
528
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.359
going on? Like, you know, they're in there cussing her
529
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.720
and you know, fighting and screaming and yelling like, man,
530
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:39.359
this is bad, Like you know, all we gotta do
531
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.680
is mind or something like and uh. Then she took
532
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:48.599
me in there and did the same things. Then she
533
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:51.680
started asking more questions, you know, and I'm like, I
534
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.559
don't know what to say. So I'm sitting there coming
535
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.079
up with these lies. And I used to get in
536
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.319
trouble for lying. You don't lie to your adults. So
537
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.160
once I lie to her, I was really I was
538
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.319
more afraid of her, you know, like, man, what is
539
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.160
she going to do now? You know, she's already treating
540
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.799
me like this, What's she going to do now? If
541
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:10.799
I'm you know, try to tell her like, look, lady,
542
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:14.480
I'm lying to you, like you know, And so eventually
543
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.359
I ended up saying something about James.
544
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:20.400
Brown, as in James York Brown, the Gilbert police sergeant
545
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.680
leading the search for Kelly Wilson. Raymond knew several police
546
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:28.319
officers through his stepdad down so when making false claims
547
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:31.400
in a desperate attempt to end the holding and rib rubbing,
548
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.200
it was only natural that he'd bring up Sergeant Brown.
549
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.440
Already lied on my mom. I lied on Don Now
550
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.759
I'm lied on James Brown. In my mind at seven,
551
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.000
I was thinking, all right, like James Brown, he's like,
552
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.559
you know, he's like a big time cop. You know,
553
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:49.960
if I say his name, he's probably gonna like show up,
554
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.640
you know, and he knows Don and know my mom,
555
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:54.559
and I'll be able to go home and you know,
556
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.119
like you know, then I can tell him like, hey,
557
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:01.279
she's hurting me, Like no. But it didn't work out.
558
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:09.720
Like that, No, it didn't.
559
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.079
Barbara could be really really nice, you know some days,
560
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:21.480
and then other times she'd just she'd be real brutal
561
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.920
and just you know, your little mother, you know, just
562
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:29.559
real trash talk. So I think all the kids were
563
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.160
scared of her. But and they walked on pins and
564
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:37.519
needles around her now. Her husband, Charlie Bass, was real quiet, easygoing.
565
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.279
You'd never hear him cuss or say something rude to you.
566
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:45.160
He never punished us. He would leave and then you know,
567
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.200
he'd leave for days at a time and then come back,
568
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.480
and he was never home when we'd have that holding process.
569
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.759
He was always gone. That was something I noticed, Like
570
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.599
I could always tell like because she would do it
571
00:32:57.640 --> 00:32:59.440
on a spur of a moment. She wouldn't be like, hey,
572
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:03.079
tomorrow's holding day. You'd wake up and come downstairs and
573
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.279
you'd see it posted on the refrigerator, you know, like
574
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:11.480
today's holding day. Then it got to where when she'd
575
00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:15.799
ask me questions, it won't like she just asked a
576
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.720
question and wait for an answer. She'd ask a question
577
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:25.599
along the lines of, you know, uh, so, did y'all
578
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:29.160
were y'all in a dungeon or something like that, and
579
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.720
I'm going, no, you know, and then it's no, well
580
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.839
tell me where the dungeon is? You know? No, did
581
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:41.039
y'all dress up like devils? No? You know, she's rubbing
582
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:44.000
your ribs the whole time you're screaming and hollering. So
583
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.759
finally it got to where I realized, like what whatever
584
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.640
she was asking me, I knew she wanted a yes
585
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:50.240
answer to you, you know what I mean, Like I
586
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:52.880
figured that out real quick, like all right, if I
587
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.079
say yes, she quits rubbing my ribs. And then she's, oh,
588
00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:00.000
you're well, you a baby, you know, And she said, there,
589
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.480
try to like coddle us. So it gave you like
590
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:06.440
a mixed emotion of you know, the abuser is now
591
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.480
the you know, everything's all right, you know, And that's
592
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:11.960
what she was doing to us.
593
00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:15.000
From the moment Raymond had arrived at the baths house,
594
00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:19.760
he says his mentality changed. He retreated inward, went into
595
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:20.599
survival mode.
596
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:26.119
From that day forward, I was real guarded with all
597
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.880
the adults. I mean any adults, didn't matter who they were.
598
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:33.400
They take me to a church thing, anywhere we went.
599
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.840
I avoided adults. All adults in my mind were out
600
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:40.360
to get me. I was like, you can't trust any
601
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.400
of these people, Like they're all gonna try to hurt us.
602
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.639
They're lying, they're all like something's wrong with them. They're
603
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.920
they're talking about killing people and eating them and devils
604
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.440
and just like everything that I was scared of because
605
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.639
like when you're seven, you go to church, you know,
606
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.400
they're telling you, like, hey, you'd be good so you
607
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:59.840
don't go to hell. The Kirk kids had told her
608
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.480
so about a devil truck and being involved in these seances,
609
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:08.480
and you know, they're burning stuff at night and killing
610
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:12.679
babies and stuff. And so when one of them kids
611
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.679
would say something to her like that, that was the
612
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:17.639
new thing that was on my plate. When she was
613
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.239
asking me questions, you know so, and then I'm just
614
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.679
going along. I'm trying to keep up with these kids,
615
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.559
you know, whatever they're saying. And the whole time I
616
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.719
didn't realize that my mom and Don were in jail.
617
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.559
One day, I was acting up, probably just doing like
618
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.880
some regular kids stuff, and she punished me and she
619
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.320
sat me down. She gave me a cheese sandwich, you know,
620
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:44.400
like two pieces of bread, cheese in the middle and
621
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:46.880
like a glass of water. All the other kids are eating,
622
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.079
you know whatever. And when she put it down in
623
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:52.960
front of me, she's like, yeah, well you can eat
624
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:57.320
what your parents are eating in jail today, since you
625
00:35:57.400 --> 00:35:59.840
want to be acting up. That was the first time
626
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:03.199
that I realized, like, all right, these things I'm saying
627
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.679
and all this is like, you know, they're not at home,
628
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.400
just ignore me. Like at that point, I thought like
629
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.400
my mom and Donn had just like left us there
630
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:14.280
and was like, you know, like gave up on us
631
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:18.760
or something. Yeah, I didn't know like how serious everything was.
632
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.199
In fact, Raymond's mom Tammy and stepdad Dawn were among
633
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:27.679
the Gilmer residents indicted for kidnapping, raping, and murdering Kelly Wilson,
634
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.519
along with the Kerr family and Sergeant Brown. They were
635
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:35.440
in jail because of Raymond's coerce claims, plus the statements
636
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.920
that Wanda Kerr and Connie Martin made to Special Prosecutor
637
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:43.280
Scott Leeford and his investigators Steve Baggs and Brooks Flag.
638
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.440
Remember those other foster parents who fled to West Texas
639
00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:51.239
trying to escape from the Curs, only to grievously injure
640
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:55.960
one curboy and then commit suicide. Well, Barbara Bass was
641
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:59.719
afraid the curs would come after her too, or she
642
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:01.000
won the kids to think that.
643
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.119
They always had us feeling like somebody was out to
644
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.880
get us. Like I remember one time they were saying, yeah,
645
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.039
they're gonna try and come kill y'all, you know, like
646
00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.280
you know, like Don and my mom had hired a
647
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.719
bunch of people to come kill us or something like.
648
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:19.360
And so I can remember all us kids sometimes at
649
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:21.079
the house, it would be like, you know, like red
650
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.159
alert or something like there was a stranger spotted down
651
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:26.880
the road or something like. Neighbors would call like it
652
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.679
was a network where we lived out there at that
653
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:32.519
Bass home. You know, I'd ask them, like, you know,
654
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.159
am I when do I get to go home? And
655
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:36.880
you don't get to go home. You know, your parents
656
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:40.280
soldier toys and you know they don't want you, like you.
657
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:44.719
Know, Chasing leads on the Satanic cult and Gilmer. Members
658
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.480
of the Lifer team took the children to sits where
659
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.400
the ritual abuse and murder of Kelly Wilson were supposed
660
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:51.760
to have occurred.
661
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:58.000
And I can remember I remember being with the Hicks
662
00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.119
kids and the Kirk kids, and they had us all
663
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.760
as a group and they wanted to know about some dungeon.
664
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.679
Those kids kept saying that they were sexually abused in
665
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:08.280
a dungeon.
666
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:09.880
Here's Shane Phelps.
667
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.000
And they got the wildest stories out of these kids
668
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.760
that there was a dungeon. When they were taken.
669
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.079
Well where the kids that took them. It is right
670
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.480
down the road here headed out of Gilmburg towards Gladewater.
671
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.360
There's a road that shoots back over it's like a
672
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.400
little old top road. We all went as a group
673
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:32.639
and they're going, well, do you all remember how to
674
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.639
get there? And you know, the kids were kind of
675
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:36.880
arguing with each other, No, it's over here in this
676
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:39.199
part of the woods. And the one boy he was like, no,
677
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:41.880
I don't know where they got it from, but they
678
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:45.039
didn't know that location, you know, them kids lee It
679
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:48.239
took bibbly like fifteen twenty minutes. And so the foster
680
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:51.360
parents and them, there might have been some caseworkers, maybe
681
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.880
even the law enforcement were there that day and we
682
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.440
all went down and into the woods and walked through
683
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.400
the woods and they were like yeah, and they had
684
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:03.000
names for everything. They were like, this is the Devil's
685
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:07.440
would you know? Everything was like devil cult, Like everything
686
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:11.400
had a name or some kind of like title. And
687
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.960
they were like, yeah, this is the dungeon. And what
688
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:17.000
it actually was it was just a tornado shelter in
689
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.440
the woods, like there might have been a house at
690
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:23.400
one point there. Who knows that was the dungeon. I
691
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.639
ain't never seen tornado shelter. I'm like, what the hell
692
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:28.400
this is? Like, you know, I'm so curious about stuff,
693
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:31.760
and you know, they were like, y'all want to come
694
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:33.960
down here, and the kids were acting all scared, you
695
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.440
know they were. And I remember just being like, Yeah,
696
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.960
I want to go down and see what's in there,
697
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:40.719
like you know, you go down the steps. It was
698
00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:44.559
just a little small tornado shelter. I remember they took
699
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.960
me to the airport here in Gilbert one day where
700
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:52.880
they had they picked up a shed and the Kirk
701
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:57.159
kids had said that that their grandma had Kelly Wilson
702
00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:00.280
tied up in the shed and had tortured her and
703
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:03.840
raped her and murdered her. Inside the shed, it was
704
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:06.960
red with white trim on it. I went in there,
705
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.400
literally went in there with the Texas Rangers and helped
706
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:14.360
them gather pieces of hair and stuff. And then there
707
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.480
were like little drawers and stuff with like screws and
708
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.599
you know stuff you find somebody's shed, screwdrivers, things like that,
709
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:24.800
and they were collecting hairs and putting it in big
710
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:28.559
plastic bags. I remember being there that day with them
711
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.119
and doing that whole thing, and then them asking me, like,
712
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.320
you know, is this the shed that Kelly Wilson was in?
713
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.480
And I can remember telling them, yes, you know, lying
714
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:41.679
to them. I was scared of sticking to my story
715
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:45.599
like that I lied about and yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,
716
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:49.320
you know, I'd never seen that shed before my life.
717
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:51.880
Come and find out the hairs that they had collected
718
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:54.320
out of that shed and came from like dogs and
719
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.320
you know, cows or something like, you know, it was
720
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.039
like animal hairs or something. But I remember at the
721
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.559
like when I was a kid, being like really scared,
722
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.119
like like wow, I'm in the ship where somebody was
723
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.719
killed and tortured, and like, you know, like they're pulling
724
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:14.079
this hair out of you know, and I'm like, man,
725
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:16.119
that's a dead person's hair, Like you know, like when
726
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:17.599
you're seven, that kind of stuff's scary.
727
00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:22.840
Raymond had already been through so much, almost unbelievably for him,
728
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.440
the worst was yet to come.
729
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.199
Every every kid that I was in Foster Home with
730
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.039
was on some kind of drug they had. Every kid
731
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:31.719
was drugged out of their minds. You know. I was
732
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.920
taking like six seven pills a day at eight years old,
733
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:39.480
and wasn't nothing wrong with me. I remember one time
734
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:41.119
They took me to a hospital. They made me get
735
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:43.880
on a table, and when I walk in, I got
736
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:48.599
Brooks Flags is there and Steven Baggs or something like that.
737
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.159
Steve Bags and Brooks Flag were the special investigators.
738
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:56.599
They wear a pistol, you know, cowboy hats, their badges
739
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:00.639
and everything. And they had never done nothing and abusive
740
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:02.440
to me. They were always kind of like, you know,
741
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.599
my buddies. I'd ride around with them. They might ask
742
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.559
me a question or two, and you know, I just
743
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.079
go along with what I'd already told Barbara, and you know,
744
00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:12.840
they go get me hot dogs and ice cream cones
745
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.679
or something. You know. They were just kind of like
746
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:18.480
somebody cool to hang out with. But I remember they
747
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.280
took me in this room and there's like three or
748
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.840
four doctors there, and Barbara Bass is there, and Steve
749
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.480
Bags and Brooks Flags were there, and they wanted me
750
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:32.119
to strip down naked in front of all of them. Well,
751
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:36.159
I got real nervous and scared because everything that Barbara
752
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:40.079
Bass talked about was abusive and devils and death, and
753
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.400
you know, there's a lot of heavy stuff for the kid,
754
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:47.599
and so I was sitting there, I'm scared, and she
755
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.199
had me get up on the table. They wanted me to,
756
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.960
you know, I started crying and Brooks flags was like,
757
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:00.360
are you scared somebody's gonna hurt you here? And I
758
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.760
was like yeah, and he like, you want me to
759
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.800
pulled out my pistol, like you know, like it may
760
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:10.880
I'm not gonna let nobody heard shit here.
761
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.360
Raymond describes how one of the doctors performed an invasive
762
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.960
search for signs of molestation while the other adults watched.
763
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:20.880
It's so upsetting we decided to cut it.
764
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:25.079
And that alone, that right there messages you up. Like
765
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:29.400
when you got somebody sitting there. They're wearing badgers. They're
766
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:33.079
supposed to protect you and they're not. They're the ones
767
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.880
that are doing it. You're raised up to believe in
768
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:43.599
God lo then you go through something like that, they're
769
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:44.760
the ones that are hurt us.
770
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:48.960
Ultimately, Raymond would spend two years in foster care. He'd
771
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.639
been taken from his mom and stepdad, Dawn, who were
772
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.360
falsely accused of murdering Kelly Wilson based on Raymond's own
773
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.559
coerced claims. Raymond had been through hell. He needed someone,
774
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.599
anyone to save him, to bring him back to Gilmer
775
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:07.000
where he belonged, and his parents Tammy and down. They
776
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:16.360
needed rescuing too, That's next time on Deviltown. Deviltown is
777
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:19.320
a production of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and created
778
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.119
by me Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoak. Audio
779
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:27.199
engineering and editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoak. Original
780
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.840
score is by Robert Ellis, recording by Austin Sisler at
781
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:33.440
east Side Studios. If you like the show, leave a
782
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:36.480
review and don't forget to tell your friends thanks for listening.